Anybody Else Amazed At the Amount Of Support For Zimmerman And Stand Your Ground ???

[WillyT]

It be blowing my mind.



I guess racism and gun-lovin crosses party lines.

[senseandsensibility]

1. I haven't seen any support for it; in fact, I just heard

on Al Sharpton's show that Trayvon was the one entitled to use "stand your ground."

[WillyT]

2. Psst... look around...

[senseandsensibility]

4. Do I have to?

If you're talking about DU, I know what to ignore, and I likewise ignore a lot of the corporate media. Life is easier that way.

[Ilsa]

6. There are plenty of posters here that think Zim

Deserves to get off with nothing. Look at GD over the last two days.

[JDPriestly]

41. Unfortunately, it isn't a matter of what he deserves, it is a matter of what the jury

is willing to give him.

Murder 2 is a tough charge to win. The prosecutor said he charged Zimmerman because of discrepancies in Zimmerman's statements about the incident.
There is a post here with a video that points out some of them.

It might reassure to watch it.

But, remember, the defendant gets the benefit of the doubt. The standard of proving beyond reasonable doubt is very high.

Zimmerman's story is difficult to believe. I cannot believe that Zimmerman reasonably felt a fear of death or severe bodily harm while carrying a gun, and if he did it was only because he is an extremely fearful, dangerously paranoid guy.

As a grandmother, I would like to see Zimmerman off the street for a long time.

He put himself into the situation he was in. He did not have to be there. And had Zimmerman stayed in the truck, Trayvon Martin would be alive today.

But don't count on the jury agreeing with me. Zimmerman is the only person involved in the events whose story will be head.

[Mojorabbit]

29. I agree with the Rev

I like the stand your ground law. I think Zimmerman is guilty. Trayvon was entitled to stand his ground.

[bushisanidiot]

110. Apparently, if you are black and unarmed, you cannot stand your ground against

someone who comes at you with an exposed weapon.

honestly, i think the asshole zimmerman expected trayvon to call him "sir" and became
engraged when he didn't receive the proper respect he felt entitled to.

[leveymg]

3. There are a lot of purple people here these days. Kinda hard to tell them from Great Bill Piles of

Gurgitated Gopher GOP.

[JI7]

5. since i knew one had a lot to do with the other, no i'm not surprised

btw, if Trayvon was white they would be aruging how it shows that he should have had a gun. but notice they aren't using that argument in this case.

[JimDandy]

32. You noticed too. n/t

[Hoyt]

7. Bigots and guns are closely related. Walk around a gun store/show.

[galileoreloaded]

25. lol. when you you point a finger, there are 3 pointed right back at you!

[alsame]

8. Yes. nt

[HappyMe]

9. Yes, I am.

[etherealtruth]

10. Actually ....

"Astounded" is the term I would use.

.... or perhaps sickened.

The fact that there are folk here that believe Zimmerman acted appropriately is both astounding and sickening!

[mwrguy]

11. I'm not amazed. Racism is alive and well.

So is gun-fetishism.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

12. I'm not getting the racism angle

I'm really not getting it. Please explain to me why you think racism is involved.

[The Straight Story]

22. If people call something racist they don't have to discuss the actual law/issue

"In the United States of America, stand-your-ground law states that a person may justifiably use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of an unlawful threat, without an obligation to retreat first."

In other words, you don't have to turn your back and flee in a confrontation - AND, please note - the use of the word 'self-defense'. So if someone is threatening you there is no requirement you flee (and some I have seen here defend drone strikes even when innocent people are killed along with the bad folks which is similar in nature when you look at the principles involved).

The problem is not so much the law - but how it is used/interpreted/applied. The concept is fine - why have someone chasing after you trying to harm you? Your back is turned, maybe you can't out run them, but without the law if you don't try to flee then you are at fault. Sort of like blaming the victim but only after you wrote the law that says they have to be a victim first and if they prevent themselves from being a victim then the other person is if you stopped them from harming you....

[JDPriestly]

42. And sadly, Trayvon did not outrun Zimmerman.

[Just Saying]

34. Should I assume from your flag that you're across the pond?

The reason racism is part of this case is that if the victim had been white, most of us don't believe that the accused would have called the police and followed him in the first place. And we certainly don't believe the police would have dragged their feet about bringing charges if an unarmed white teenager had been killed just trying to walk back to where he was staying.

There is still a good portion of the US population that are afraid of black men and boys and assume they are all criminals. This group overlaps with gun "enthusiasts" who want to be able to carry their gun anywhere and use them at their discretion. They are getting laws passes with the help of the NRA which is backed by gun manufacturers, to allow them greater ability to shoot people on their property. In this case, they are not using what is called "Stand Your Ground," but laws like this have seen a large increase in "justifiable homicide." Basically they made murder much easier to justify.

But I digress, in this case, the accused couldn't make it as a cop so he was a neighborhood watch captain (maybe, there are conflicting stories). Now the neighborhood watch tells people to be the eyes and ears and call the police but they are not supposed to question, persue or carry weapons. The accused has a concealed carry permit and had his gun when he went out to go to the grocery store. He spotted a 17 year old black kid on his way back from picking up candy and a drink at a store, talking on his cell phone and heading to his dad's fiancé's place. He called the police and told them the victim looked like he was on drugs (he wasn't) and was up to no good (no proof of that.). When the victim saw a guy following him in a truck he ran between the buildings (which was on his way back to where he was staying.). The accused on the phone with police called the victim a "fucking punk" and said "these assholes always get away." He then tried to find the victim, at some point locating him still on the phone but we don't know what happened exactly then except a fight broke out and the victim was subsequently shot and killed.

I believe the accused, Zimmerman, profiled the victim Trayvon because he was young and black so he assumed he was a criminal.

[joeglow3]

100. Your first paragraph sums up the flaw with this discussion

You said people "believe" it was a factor. Now, I have no problem with that. However, thankfully, the burden of proof in a court of law is much greater than that. It is quite possible for someone to share your belief, but support the application of law in a courtroom and honestly say that has NOT been proved. That does not make someone racist. It makes them someone who intelligently applies the laws.

[Just Saying]

119. What the jury believes both in witness testimony and of Zimmerman's

Mindset will be a factor.

[bowens43]

13. not really with all the support ive seen here for obamas spying on americans nothing surprises me

[NoGOPZone]

14. I'm not sure that all of his supporters

are in fact crossing party lines.

[DearAbby]

15. What gets me is they dont believe Martin had this same right.

You have a guy following you in his car...you "circle" the car to give the guy notice "Hey I see you watching me" ..Zimmerman could have rolled down his window to say "I am with the neighborhood watch, I am not familiar with you in the area" Instead Martin continues his walk towards home. Telling Jeantal about the creepy cracker. Martin turns the corner at the "T" heading for his Father's house.

When Zimmerman parks his truck, the headlights shone down the path, he would take. In pitch darkness Martin is going to see the lights from the vehicle light up the immediate area behind him..the point where he says "Oh Shit" he steps off the walkway onto the grass. Zimmerman walks by to get the address from the other side, approaches the "T" Looks down and does not see Martin...Martin watches him walk by. Over the phone to Jeantal, they discuss plans of escape. Should Martin Run, and so on.

On his way back to the vehicle Zimmerman is confronted with a very frightened Martin. "Hey man, do you have a problem with me?" Again Zimmerman could have answered, "I am with the neighborhood watch, I am not familiar with you in the area" instead he said "no Problem" Which is a bold face lie. Of course Zimmerman has a problem, he was actively following Martin...At this moment Zimmerman became a threat to Martin. Martin feared for his life.

Under Florida law, if you feel your life is in danger, you can use whatever force necessary to save your life.

[Llewlladdwr]

18. You seriously find the words "no problem" to be threatening?

It sounds to me like an attempt to de-escalate the situation. No need to be scared if there's no problem.

[DearAbby]

21. Yes

To a young kid, its obvious Zimmerman had a problem with Martin, he followed him first by car, then on foot. At any point Zimmerman could have defused the situation by telling the truth. "I am part of the neighborhood watch..yada yada" Instead he chose to lie. thereby making Zimmerman actions very suspicious.

[Llewlladdwr]

23. Why do you feel Z identifying as part of the neighborhood watch would have defused the situation?

The neighborhood watch has absolutely no actual authority to do anything, especially stop people on the street.

[JDPriestly]

43. It would be good if people in the neighborhood watch who actually patrol around

go in twos and have a badge that says neighborhood watch. That way people would be aware of them. They wouldn't have to wear the badge except if they speak to someone they don't know.

Zimmerman had no indication about him that he was anything but a thug looking for trouble. That's how Trayvon Martin would have viewed Zimmerman. Zimmerman could have had a very evil intent. Could have? He did. He killed Trayvon Martin.

As a grandmother I do not want people like Zimmerman "protecting" my grandkids or approaching them on the street on a dark, rainy night.

[Llewlladdwr]

49. You do understand that a neighborhood watch person is not actually a law officer, right?

A neighborhood watch badge would be rather useless seeing as how the neighborhood watch has absolutely no authority to approach or detain another individual over and above that available to any private citizen. Sure, a neighborhood watch person can approach you and ask you what you're doing, but you have no obligation to even acknowledge their presence.

This is aside from the issue of exactly who would approve and issue such a badge. I can't see a police force doing so as it would expose them to liablity for the watch person's actions. If the watch is buying the badges themselves, well, anyone can buy a toy badge.

[jmg257]

96. Thats why the dumb ass actually explaining he was part of neighborhood watch and why

he was following the kid would have been a good idea.

[DearAbby]

46. When he was asked "Do you have a problem?"

It was obvious he had, he was on the phone to non emergency police, about a suspicious person. Why did he lie? Had he told the truth, the situation would have been defused there. Who was the adult that night?

[Llewlladdwr]

53. Why do you think Z announcing that he was on the neighborhood watch...

would have defused the situation? You keep repeating this but you've yet to say why you think it to be true. Why would finding out Z claimed to be on the neighborhood watch make Martin less frightened? If Martin knew Z was on the phone to the police wouldn't that be even more reassuring than hearing about Z's membership in the watch? If Martin didn't know that Z was on the phone with the police then why would it be obvious to him that Z was 'lying' when he said there was no problem?

[jmg257]

94. Maybe because it would help Travon understand why some strange guy was following him?

Maybe Travon would be less worried about the strange guy following him then, because he too was staying in the neighborhood?

Cop or civilian - when confronting someone, it might be a good idea to explain why. It also gives the person being confronted a good oppurtunity to explain what they are about - hopefully defusing the tension, fear-filled situation at least a bit.

[joeglow3]

102. May Trayvon could have said, I am just walking home instead of attacking someone

THAT would have defused the situation right there. See, your logic can be applied 100 different ways. Sad thing is that we will NEVER know what happened.

[jmg257]

105. Exactly, that is why when Zimmer was asked by his victim, he should have told the truth.

Instead of saying "no problem" when he obiouvly had a BIG BIG problem, and then taking whatever other actions he did which would cause Travon enough fear to possibly attack him instead.

[joeglow3]

107. And Trayvon should have said "Cool. I am just walking home. Thanks"

But he chose to attack the person. He elected to not defuse the situation. I think the point is going over your head.

[jmg257]

108. There is no other point - Zimmer was actively pursuing Travon. He obviously lied to his intention,

because he was clealry 'caught' following the kid, so there was NOTHING "cool" about it. Instead his dumb ass irresponsible reply would raise even more suspicion from his victim, making himself to be even more of a threat then he already was.

Not a smart guy, this Zimmerman. Not at all. Unfortunately the kid paid for this ass's stupidity with his life.

[jmg257]

106. But we DO know what happened.

Some profiling dickhead with a gun had a serious problem with a kid walking in his neighborhood - enough of a problem to get into a confrontation with this unarmed kid resulting in the unarmed kid getting shot and killed.

THAT is what happened.

[DearAbby]

120. It works both ways.

Martin first observes Zimmerman following him in his vehicle, then he parks are watches Martin from within his car. Zimmerman would appear suspicious to Martin. When he followed Martin on foot, he became a person up to NO good...If it had happened to me, I would be thinking sexual pervert. Martin being a 17 yr old had to been told about STRANGER DANGER. He was unarmed, and faced with a possible sexual assault and death. Did he need to be raped or killed before he could throw his first punch?

[ceonupe]

69. And

Neither does a 911 or non emergency operator have any authority or force of law or he would be charged with that.

[gollygee]

101. If Zimmerman had said that

Martin could have said something like, "I'm heading back from the 7-11 to my dad's place on X street" and Zimmerman maybe would have stopped being stupid. No, Zimmerman had no authority and should have left him alone, but lying about whether he had a problem must have made Martin start speculating about what the actual problem was. It would have been easier for him to know what the problem was.

[frogmarch]

16. Yes! nt

[Iggo]

17. Yes.

[Llewlladdwr]

19. It's often shocking to find out others disagree with you.

Especially when it's something you believe passionately. You just assume every other right-thinking person will agree with you. But the truth here is that from what we've seen of the trial so far the prosecution is not making their case. I have yet to see any actual evidence (as opposed to speculation or rumor) that contradicts Z's story.

[Duckwraps]

24. Why how dare they since I know I

and every other properly thinking person, is right.

[JDPriestly]

44. There is a video on DU explaining the contradictions in Zimmerman's story.

[Llewlladdwr]

45. Can you direct me to where?

Thanks!

[JDPriestly]

48. Give me a minute. I will find it.

[JDPriestly]

50. Here. Sorry for the delay.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=10023152201

E-mail me on DU if that isn't the one. Thanks.

[Llewlladdwr]

54. Checking it out now.

Thanks again!

[treestar]

91. Circumstantial evidence certainly does

No one may know exactly what happened. But we know Trayvon did not have a gun and Zimmerman did. Trayvon did not point a gun at Zimmerman - the only fact pattern by which Zimmerman could reasonably have feared for his life.

[forestpath]

20. Gun humpers always defend other gun humpers no matter what.

[galileoreloaded]

27. but not when a gun humper is a dog humper.

mutually exclusive!

[Shankapotomus]

26. I haven't encountered anyone on DU

who felt they had to side with the defense that didn't do so grudgingly. Maybe I'm not encountering the bad ones you speak of but everyone I've seen on DU, whatever the side, seems to think it sucks.

[Warpy]

28. Too many guns out there are burning holes in too many pockets

They spent umpteen dollars on those things with all the junk to make themselves perfect human hunters, now they wanna know how far they can go having target practice.

They'd be delighted with a Zimmerman acquittal that would declare open season on any other person anywhere as long as they claimed that person "looked suspicious."

And yes, some of them inhabit the gungeon on DU.

[Hoyt]

36. That right there Nails It.

[billh58]

112. +100

Truer words were never spoken, and DU's Gungeon is a swamp of NRA-apologists and gun fetishists.

[Trajan]

30. spillover from the Gungeon ?

one day that swamp will be dry ...

[Lizzie Poppet]

31. Zimmerman =/= stand your ground

[Hoyt]

38. The "self defense" he's claiming is essentially stand your ground BS.

Zimmerman may have been scared, but that frigging gun should not have been used.

[Lizzie Poppet]

55. Agreed, and I think Zimmerman's a murderer...

...but that wasn't the point. The OP stupidly equated supporting stand-your-ground with supporting Zimmerman.

[Hoyt]

75. Nope, OP is correct. It's like gun folks acting like there is a big difference between

a clip and magazine. This is an early test of what this right wing, gun nut promotd law is all about. SYG needs to be repealed, and "self defense" needs to be redefined.

[Llewlladdwr]

82. There *is* a big difference between a clip and a magazine.

They are two completely different objects with completely different purposes. Using them as though they are interchangable is like randomly switching the words 'key' and 'hinge' because hey, doors.

[Hoyt]

93. They feed bullets to your beloved guns. SYG just expands self defense

to allow fun lovers to use their weapons more often.

[jmg257]

95. How about "ammunition feeding devices". That should cover them all...

(Though of course in code they usually mean something completely different)


Though the purpose can certainly be the same - please explain how "completely different" from a magazine is the clip for an M1 Garand?

[Lizzie Poppet]

97. That association the OP made is demonstrably false, as shown in this very thread.

More than one poster, myself included, supports stand-your-ground laws and considers Zimmerman a murderer who deserves punishment. If the OP didn't intend that, then he/she should have been more precise (a simple "and/or" would have done the trick).

As for repealing SYG, that might make some folks feel good, but in my case, it would have zero effect on my decision-making process in a situation in which I was being assaulted. I'll make my "fight or flight" (or talk, for that matter) decision based solely on which option I believe offers me the best chance of emerging unharmed. If I think someone intends me serious injury or death, and I don't think I can outrun them, I'm going to fight. Any law requiring me to select the option more likely to result in my death can fuck right off. No law trumps basic human rights.

[hack89]

99. It is the same self defense law you would find in any state.

it has nothing to do with SYG - that fact that he did not request a SYG hearing should have been your first clue.

[Hoyt]

113. I'm sure you have read every state's so you will know when you can pull your guns wherever you are.

Last edited Wed Jul 3, 2013, 11:51 AM - Edit history (1)

[hack89]

117. I don't carry in public - I have no need to. nt

[Demo_Chris]

33. It's been an eye opening experience. nt

[graham4anything]

35. It is always all about the gun and immigration. Everything. That's how the BushPaul's play.

Remember what they did to Dukakis in 1988.

They are just starting early.

However, this time no one is fooled.

And the President and Hillary play the game better than Mike in 88 did, as now there is more knowledge than ever before, and its easier to see.

The NRA is desperate and throwing everything, but long term they have lost the war.

[madinmaryland]

39. Don't forget that Martin O'Malley (45) passed the most comprehensive gun legislation in the US.

[graham4anything]

88. actually, NYC has the best. However, watch out for the Cornyn poison pen pill amendment. Danger in

that, if it comes through, all the good places like California, NYC, CT, etc. will be meaningless.

[ceonupe]

70. Blame Kennedy

Blame Kennedy

[Gemini Cat]

37. Yes

It makes me wonder how much are they getting paid.

[aikoaiko]

40. Not really. I remember the Joe Horn case in Texas.

There were a lot of DU lawyers and magistrates who got that wrong and there were a few people saying that Texas state law could benefit Horn. As it turned out Joe Horn was "no billed" in grand jury if I remember correctly.

[JDPriestly]

47. My suggestion is to allow people to carry their guns and to own guns as they wish, but

if they shoot and kill another person, no matter the circumstances, it's second degree murder just because they killed with a gun.

I think that would cause people to leave their guns at home unless they absolutely believed they faced danger.

I would add that all gun owners should be required to buy extra insurance in case they shoot someone either intentionally or accidentally.

But self-defense should not be permitted as a defense if you killed someone with a gun. There shouldn't be any defenses allowed for a person who kills with a gun. That would reduce the number of murders by firearm very quickly.

[Hoyt]

51. That makes sense. Gun crowd should listen.

[Llewlladdwr]

57. Wow.

You'd charge a woman who shot and killed her attempted rapist with murder 2?

Or an elderly who shot a home invader who was intent on killing them?

Think this through a bit...

[JDPriestly]

63. Not if it is in their homes.

But if someone shoots the woman he has raped or the elderly person in the home of the elderly person, then that should be murder 2 no matter what.

[Llewlladdwr]

65. Hmmm...so self defense with a firearm is only permitted in one's home?

So if you're being raped away from home and you shoot your rapist it's still murder 2?

[JDPriestly]

79. Yes. It is unlikely that a woman being raped is going to be able to use a gun on the rapist.

That could happen, probably does happen on rare occasions, but usually a rapist could overpower the person being raped even if she had a gun.

[Llewlladdwr]

81. Let me make sure I understand.

You're saying that if a woman uses a gun to defend herself against an attempted rape when outside her home and ends up shooting her attacker to death then she deserves an automatic charge of second degree murder. Correct? Based on your earlier post it seems that you would allow a self defense exception in the case where the attack is taking place inside the victim's home though, right?

[JDPriestly]

84. I am suggesting that. Perhaps if people want there could be an exception for rape, but

I think that would apply only very rarely.

Rapes at gunpoint are much rarer than killings of young males at gunpoint.

How many rapes at gunpoint outside of the home do you think there are per year?

I tried to Google for a number and found one in May and maybe an arrest in June. It is so rare that it is specifically reported.

If you can find a figure with a link, I would like to know it.

Most rapes outside the home are not done at gunpoint.

[Llewlladdwr]

86. Wow.

I think we're going to have to respectfully disagree on this one. I hear what you're saying but it just doesn't make sense to me at any level. Thank you for an interesting discussion though, it did make me think.

[Pelican]

87. That is fucking sick...

I'm sure the women who have protected themselves with a firearm and the women who would be raped if this took effect would be comforted by the fact that you got a warm and fuzzy out of their violated bodies...

Lovely...

[Lizzie Poppet]

58. "self-defense should not be permitted as a defense if you killed someone with a gun"

And with what, pray tell, do you propose they defend themselves with?

[Llewlladdwr]

61. Anything but a gun.

It's not the killing that bothers them, it's the gun.

[JDPriestly]

64. I think this would discourage people from carrying guns, especially criminals.

They think they won't get caught. I think this would make people like Zimmerman think twice before shooting.

[Lizzie Poppet]

68. I disagree. I don't think criminals would give it a second thought.

A criminal has already decided to risk similar penalties in carrying and potentially using a gun for non-self-defense purposes. That an event (legitimate self defense) less likely to occur for them than criminal use of a gun would carry a harsh penalty seems unlikely to change their thinking.

Since you didn't answer my question, I'll jut go ahead and mention that I'd risk that penalty, personally. Better to be in deep shit in the legal system than dead, and a firearm offers me the best chance of successfully defending myself against violent assault.

[JDPriestly]

78. As I pointed out, armed robbery gets a stiffer sentence than just robbery.

If you, say rob a bank, and someone with you, unbeknownst to you has a gun and kills someone, you could be charged with murder under felony murder laws if applicable.

Here is Wikipedia's explanation of the felony murder law in Florida:

If a person committing a predicate felony directly contributed to the death of the victim then the person will be charged with murder in the first degree - felony murder which is a capital felony. The only two sentences available for that statute are life in prison and the death penalty. [6] [7]

If a person commits a predicate felony, but was not the direct contributor to the death of the victim then the person will be charged with murder in the second degree - felony murder which is a felony of the first degree. The maximum prison term is life. [8][7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule_%28Florida%29

[OwnedByCats]

77. You think criminals

especially would think twice? LOL

Ever noticed how the death penalty doesn't seem to deter murderers?

If you're talking about law abiding citizens who are told that if they use a gun to kill someone, even if it's self defense, that they will be up on 2nd degree murder charges, they will be far less likely to want to carry a firearm or keep one at home. Criminals, not so much.

As much as guns are a problem - there are circumstances where they could be used to save your own life or a loved one where no other alternative exists. I'm not saying Zimmerman belongs in that category, just saying that guns can save lives too. Unfortunately it does also take them.

[JDPriestly]

85. I don't think I am a candidate for carrying a gun. I am extremely nearsighted

and wear glasses. I drive very carefully and hate to have to parallel park.


We all have our talents. I doubt that shooting a gun would be one of mine. I can't hardly even play minigolf. I'm a total klutz with things like that.

[hack89]

103. How many murderers claim self defense?

I have a hard time believing all the gun violence in large cities has anything to do with legal gun owners claiming self defense.

In any case, you are too late. The Supreme Court has already ruled you have a constitutional right to self defense. Arbitrary limits like the ones you propose are a non-starter.

[dkf]

52. Being able to understand how the law works is not racist.

[Scootaloo]

56. Not really...

But then I'd lost all expectations that DU was different by, oh, I think it was my 200th post or so. A long while back

[Fire Walk With Me]

59. A friend said that the decision from this trial will be whether or not it's fair game to kill black

people. I tend to agree with his assessment. And his disgust.

[PDJane]

60. Astonished and disgusted.

[davidn3600]

62. I do not support Zimmerman

But I do support innocence until proven guilty. And Im trying to stay objective which is what everyone should do during a trial.

It's also realistic to say that the prosecution is not doing a very good job.

[Pelican]

66. It seems to be growing as the trial goes on...

[Inkfreak]

67. The only thing that amazes me is my dogs bowel regularity.

I'd kill for it.

[flvegan]

71. Am I a racist if I don't hate castle doctrine?

FS 776.013 gives me certain rights, Zimmerman notwithstanding.

[Hoyt]

80. You might be if you embrace "stand your ground and similar crud," though.

[ceonupe]

72. I do notice how CNN and msnbc have dialed back the blind pro travon stance

I do notice how CNN and msnbc have dialed back the blind pro travon stance


Their is a diffeence between morals and emotion and the law.

Notice how almost every lawyer that is a commentator almost all agree the state is doing a bad job and is far from proving beyond a reasonable doubt.

The state may have over charged her and the evidence just is not here to prove 2nd degree murder.

[Arugula Latte]

73. I can't say what I want to say about the pro-Zimmerman crowd on DU.

But, yes, I'm amazed and thoroughly disgusted.

And I don't think for a second that racism isn't a factor in some of the pro-Zimmerman people, even here. Not all, But some.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

74. Also remember the obvious low post count trolls

who are posting their bullshit. (see one post above you). But yeah, I'm thoroughly disgusted as well.

[MotherPetrie]

76. Yes, and you are so right.

[bravenak]

83. Yes, and it makes me sick to my stomach. I want to tell them to wake up! What if it were your kid?

Would it still be justified? Unarmed kid vs. armed adult male, and the gun toting man is the victim?
This is unreal.

[DonCoquixote]

89. I wish I was

I know I keep ranting about how I am from Tampa, but our state has a way of being news fodder.

The situation: the right wing down here comes in two flavors:

1) The old confederacy which thinks everything was fine when self described "crackers" ran things
2) ex Northerners who blame Democrats and their support of Minorities for "ruining" back home.

These two vary in their honesty; the mask they wear, but both of them feel that blacks are a threat, and want their gawd-given right to shoot them if they feel threatened, thus why we have Jeb Bush's "stand your ground" laws that make Florida a fine place for psychotics to buy guns.

For example, The Tampa bay times is one of the more liberal newspapers in the nation; it is owned by a non profit so that it cannot be sold to some media Giant, and has become a haven for Liberal reporters that got fired from the Tampa Tribune. However, check out their comment section. You think DU has had infiltration by right wing?, heh, you will see people who state, in clear terms, that Tray deserved to get shot because he was in a white neighborhood. Now,keep in mind, we are one of those areas that the Voting Rights act had a choke on, because our elections had racism, even in 2012, lines for blacks and Hispanics at the polls were longer.

And let's be honest about something, but a disclaimer.

NO, for the 9999th time, I do not think that everyone who criticizes Obama is a racist. I am pissed at the way he let the NSA Bloom, when i hired the guy to either kill or at least cage it.

OK, now that has been done, let's also be honest, many people in Florida refused to allow a black president. It has many shades, from the people who are already on the Hillary 2016 ('because she was more, qualified, than that boy Obama) train to people that decorate their cars with bumper stickers that the EU would classify as "hate speech." The next election, be it Jeb, Hillary, or whoever, they will breathe easier.

I understand we do not want to lynch Zimmerman, but on the other hand, here is a person that many neighborhood watch organizations would have rejected (thanks to his criminal record) who carried a gun (again, many NW orgs would have banned that) and who, after several dozen documented incidents where he was chasing black males, finally said "they always get away." So he got out of his truck, took his gun, and at the very least, put himself in a fight after he was told "we do not need you to do that."

If he gets a slap on the wrist, a clear message will be sent to people that want to intimidate minorities with guns, and frankly, since the SCOTUS gutted the VRA, it is a message that will be acted on, by many little Zimmermans that frankly, will not even need the white sheets to hide their faces, but will brag about it as they bhecome the next TV made celebrity.

[DLevine]

90. Amazed and thoroughly disgusted. nt

[rucky]

92. On DU or elsewhere?

for the most part, people here accused of supporting Zimmerman just seem to be advocating a fair trial.

[joeglow3]

98. You mistake support for the judicial process for support of Zimmerman

but the latter supports your narrative of attacking the individual, so that works better, huh?

[naaman fletcher]

104. Who is supporting Stand your Ground?

Stand your ground has NOTHING to do with this case.

What is amazing to me is huge number of posters here who don't even know the basic facts of the case that are being argued about.

[krispos42]

109. The idea behind "Stand Your Ground" is sound

The alternative is to force intended victims to try to turn and escape a threat, which puts them at a distinct disadvantage. Remember, violent criminals are generally young. Putting the burden of fleeing on people that might not be able to flee quickly is a terrible idea. Imagine older people, people not in good shape (lots of us out there) or having to shepherd somebody like that away from one or more young violent criminals. Or a dad or a mom trying to retreat carrying kids or something.

Or imagine whether or not you could have fled from the attacker you had to shoot being decided by a jury a year later. Or how a prosecutor



The wording of the various laws are doubtless different state by state, and some are probably better than others.



Having said that, I'll note that Zimmerman's defense is not based on SYG, but on regular justifiable-homicide laws, in which you confess to killing somebody but try to convince a jury that is was justified by the circumstances.



I don't support Zimmerman. Martin was standing his ground against an unknown person pursuing him. Zimmerman needs to be in jail.

[Myrina]

111. Yes.

n/t

[Tikki]

114. I am totally sickened by the support..either they are racists or see Trayvon as an inanimate object.

He was a living breathing child, hunted down and murdered. Plain and simple. The gun part is how he was murdered.




Tikki

[tallahasseedem]

115. Yes and it's disgusting.

I'm sorry, but as soon as Zimmerman approached Trayvon, Trayvon had a right to stand his own ground.

The fact that this case has reached the fever pitch it has just shows that we're living in a pretty twisted society. It makes me think of the end of the movie "A Time to Kill" when Matthew McConaughey described what happened and then said, "Now imagine she were white".

[lumberjack_jeff]

116. There's a lot of confusion between support for Zimmerman and support for the justice system.

We have different information than the jury does, I'm going to defer to their judgment.

[dionysus]

118. yeah. seems to be mostly the gun folks too...