So here is the problem...how does the rest if the world deal with a rogue state?

[nadinbrzezinski]

Yes, yes we are, nuclear armed.

I think the US will understand this behavior is not acceptable when it becomes a pariah.

The latest stunt, and it was, may very well lead to that. No, if Bolivia breaks diplomatic relations will not do much in the US. But if South America does, there goes a trade region.

I suspect nations, and regions will start talking that way. None can take on the US militarily, but regions can start treating the US as persona non grata and close their borders to US trade.

Will Americans notice? Yes, American jobs depend on that trade. Will they connect it to US behavior in the international arena? Hardly. My tv is still married to a trial, never mind we are in the middle of an epic diplomatic dust off. The kind of dust off that in the past has started wars.

Some here might laugh it off, even chuckle a little, but all these events are extremely serious. And that militarized southern border...is not about keeping people out either.


I expect more than a few to even go Obama and USA in a single breath, but this was a NATO alert and I doubt the US had no clue. I really doubt it, knowing how the US at times throws it's weight around.

It also revealed we colonized Europe. But both Russia and China, two world powers. (Russia less than China) told the US to pound sand. This dust off is incredibly revealing of what goes behind the scenes at this point.

And I must ask again, what did this young man take that is scaring elites to the point of revealing the scenery?

[gcomeau]

1. Oh for cripes sake...

You really live in your own little world don't you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. My little world gets it

This is creating reactions all across Latin America that you barely comprehend.

Let me correct this, you don't comprehend.

[gcomeau]

21. If you think South America...

...will break diplomatic relations with the US over Snowden you're delusional. Full stop.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. If I think this is a serious diplomatic row

And no, it is *not* over Snowden. That is your fantasy. It is over what they are calling the kidnapping of the President of Bolivia and violation of a panoply of treaties...you keep telling yourself it is over Snowden

What would your reaction be if Tanzania said they had to search AF 1?

[gcomeau]

28. Sigh...

"nd no, it is *not* over Snowden. That is your fantasy. It is over what they are calling the kidnapping of the President of Bolivia and violation of a panoply of treaties..."


..because Austria looked inside a plane.

Which clearly will result in all of South America breaking diplomatic relations with the world's superpower.

De-lu-sion-al.


But frankly, continuing to bother engaging you on this is almost certainly pointless, so I'm just going to sit back and watch South America NOT do a single thing you're ranting about and you ignore that nothing you're talking about is happening and continue right on ranting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Do you understand that plane is sovereign territory

Of the Republic of Bolivia?

Do you comprehend how much of a fracking violation of international treaties this is? Again, what would be your reaction if Tanzania grounded AF 1 and demanded to search it?

No pal, the ignorant delusional is you?

FYI CONASUR is HOLDING an emergency meeting what do you think they are doing, exchanging recipes?

[gcomeau]

32. Yep.

Austria committed a diplomatic faux pas.

And some angry words will be exchanged.

And THAT WILL BE IT here in the land of reality. But you keep right on spouting your crazy fantasies about how the entire world is going to be rearranged and turned on it's head because some people in Austria looked inside a plane they weren't supposed to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Why did that happen?

And trade wars are not my fantasy, they are historic realities.

[gcomeau]

38. Why did *what* happen?

And you weren't talking about some piddly little trade pissing match in your OP.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. My, my, yes I did

I suspect nations, and regions will start talking that way. None can take on the US militarily, but regions can start treating the US as persona non grata and close their borders to US trade.

What do you think that was about?

[gcomeau]

56. Do you comprehend...

...that there is a difference between a "trade war" and CUTTING OFF ALL TRADE ACTIVITY, SEVERING DIPLOMATIC TIES, AND CLOSING YOUR BORDERS?

A "trade war" means taking a jab at someone by slapping some tariffs on some of their products or something. Yeah, THAT happens all the time. Try to understand the terminology you're using.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Yes...and if you think this will have no effect beyond words

You live in an American exceptional bubble. I will ask you again, what would hp happen if Tanzania threatened to search AF-1.

[AgingAmerican]

72. My guess is a detachment of Marines would be helicoptered in

with fighter jet escorts. It would get really ugly really fast.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Well the overwhelming response is a given

But all planes carrying heads of state have that kind of recognized immunity. This is what was violated and why all of Latin America (from their press) is pissed. Having grown up in Mexico I can almost see demonstrations outside the Embassy (and the rest of the Embassies) today.

[gcomeau]

73. In that hysterical hypothetical...

...there would be a bunch of yelling and chest thumping and diplomatic finger wagging and probably a few wrist slapping punitive measures applied like slapping an import tarriff on Tanzanian minerals or something...

And then everyone would forget about it within a year except for the occasional growling and scowling for dramatic effect.

[AgingAmerican]

77. So if Obama was essentially held prisoner...

there would be chest thumping and yelling? Minimize much?

[gcomeau]

88. Wasn't the question.

The question was if they wanted to look in the plane.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. What part of AF 1 is sovereign territory of the US are you missing

And it would draw a muscular military response?

Clueless...seriesly

[gcomeau]

108. No part of it. But I get that you're incapable of grasping that. -eom

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. I guess it is time you and I say our permanent good byes.

Have a good life.

*plonk*

I just have so much patience any longer

[gcomeau]

112. Indeed. -eom

[Skidmore]

130. So much for supporting first amendment rights.

[byeya]

37. The land of reality is what the nations of South America think and this morning it is not pro-USA.

Violating a sovereign nation, particularly with its president present, is not an act to win friends.

The new OAS type organization, with the USA and Canada specifically not invited, was a pretty broad hint that the administration cannot contiue business as usual.

[Fuddnik]

50. The chickens are coming home to roost, real soon.

Our foreign policy should have made us a pariah long ago. I'm surprised the rest of the world didn't start treating us as a rogue, long ago.

[byeya]

74. Maybe the chickens are coming home to roost. If so I hope the Monroe Doctrine will be on the floor

catching the chicken sh*t - We never should have declared this license to meddle in the first place.

[malaise]

116. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

They will learn

[sikofit3]

127. Perfect reply

I love it and it is so true! As I thanked Nadine, thank you for what you do for this site, including dealing with these disrupters. It is a service to all true Duers.

[sikofit3]

126. I admire you

I don't know how you can deal with these trolls.... they are a dead weight on this site but someone has to let them know they are idiots that spew shit and that the power of the truth this site has had since the ten years I have been a reader will never break from their infiltration. I thank you and the others for what you do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. We just do

[LiberalLoner]

147. I admire you too, thank you for what you do.

[truebluegreen]

33. There is a boat load of resentment around here

(where I live) towards the US. And that was before this outrage.

And now with a boat load of European "allies" added in, plus Russia and China....Nadin poses very good questions on rogue states and what is being hidden.

If you think this incident is minor, and will blow over quickly, you are delusional. Full stop.

[gcomeau]

36. Not questioning that.

But it would take the leadership of all the nations in South America being a combination of idiotic and insane to result in the breaking off of Diplomatic ties with the US over any of this.

And last I looked, they're not. But keep living in your fantasy world if you think that's actually going to happen. Maybe I'll put a mark on my Calender to come back here in a couple months just to point and laugh.

[frylock]

90. you epitomize the caricature of the ugly american..

bravo.

[gcomeau]

92. Not an American. Just recognize basic fundamental realities.

Nice try though.

[Maedhros]

104. Why is it idiotic for South American states

to defend their sovereignty?

[gcomeau]

107. It isn't.

But cutting off all diplomatic ties and ending all trade relationships with the most powerful nation on earth because a different country took a look inside a plane would be more shooting themselves in the leg than defending their sovereignty.

[Maedhros]

120. I can see your point.

Dressing it in condescension doesn't help.

[Generic Other]

136. On the other hand using it to extract concessions

dramatic handwringing, chest thumping, etc. It is a very shocking violation of a head of state's sovereignty. It is hard to imagine such a scenario being reversed -- any nation doing such a thing to AF-1 without immediate threat of retaliation.

Our treatment of South America has not won us many friends. We cut our teeth interfering with their governments. We ought to expect them to be incensed at our behavior.

I gather it is a given our government was spying on them too?

[truebluegreen]

117. Fantasy world? You assume a lot out of a very brief comment

about how un-liked America is making itself in this part of the world. And elsewhere.

Hang on to your obscene defense budget and surveillance state, you're gonna need it.

[JDPriestly]

68. I agree with you nadin. Somebody overstepped.

[sibelian]

13. Seems to be the same one I'm living in...

[chimpymustgo]

46. It's painful, but it's better than living with one's head in the sand.

[gcomeau]

53. If you seriously think...

...all of South America is going to break diplomatic ties with the United States because the Austrians looked inside a plane you must be on some spectacular pharmaceutical substances.

[ohheckyeah]

145. Is it within the realm of possibility

that you could disagree with someone without being insulting?

[hack89]

2. They will do nothing

considering all the dictators, despots and authoritarian regimes that are welcomed with open arms at the UN, why do you think things will change now?

[PDJane]

3. I agree.

There has to be fire if there is this much smoke, and if the US is so concerned with secrecy. What would happen if the whole thing blew wide open? What kind of history would have to be taught if the truth of US actions were revealed?

[snooper2]

4. You never stated when the empire is going to collapse

And 117K...

That's the target list for the NSA-

Haven't seen any comments from you on that. Is the NSA lying to itself because they knew the docs would be leaked, so it was preemptive cover? Are you on the target list? Where did the truthy to power go?

[dipsydoodle]

5. Bolivian president's treatment stirs up fury in Latin America

Forced to land in Vienna, left waiting for 13 hours and only allowed to leave after he agreed to a search – presumably for the US whistleblower Edward Snowden – the treatment of Evo Morales has stirred up fury in Latin America, a region that has long bristled at the bullying of the US and the double standards of its former colonial masters in Europe.

Bolivia has denounced what it calls a "kidnap" operation by imperial powers that violates the Vienna convention and its national sovereignty. Venezuela, Argentina, Ecuador and Uruguay have joined in the condemnation. Angry headlines have been splashed on newspapers across the region.

The foreign minister of Ecuador, Ricardo Patiño Aroca, said his country would stand with Bolivia. "We will not allow this affront against a Latin American leader," he tweeted.

The secretary general of the Organisation of American States, José Miguel Insulza, expressed his "profound displeasure" with the countries who refused to allow Morales's plane through their airspace.

"Nothing justifies an action as disrespectful to the highest authority of a country," Insulza said in a statement.

Peru has reportedly called for an emergency meeting on Wednesday of another regional grouping, the Union of South American Nations (Unasur).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/bolivian-president-morales-latin-america

Time to kick the US out of the OAS.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. They won't.

There are now parallel organizations the us is not a member off. Don't be too shocked if the OAS withers or loses regional importance though

[byeya]

41. This is the public opinion and leadership opinion that counts and its in South America.

Agree that the OAS may be left to wither, dry up and blow away.

[timdog44]

69. The OAS

went down the tubes in 1982 when the US sided with the UK on the Falklands. This probably had something to do with 1st, 2nd and 3rd class allies, and nothing to do with solidarity with member states.

[think]

131. They searched the plane? Holy fuck!

No wonder they are so pissed....

[FSogol]

6. LOL at the hyperole! "Yes, yes we are, nuclear armed!"

A minor diplomatic squabble produces this: "Some here might laugh it off, even chuckle a little, but all these events are extremely serious. And that militarized southern border...is not about keeping people out either."

[HappyMe]

26. Hey. It's series!!11

Because Fox said so!!11!

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. And my local fox five station is covering

[Arctic Dave]

9. I going to guess that the US just lost a trading region.

China is dancing a jig because, once again, the US has stepped on it's own tail.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Yup

And Africa will be leery

[timdog44]

80. Especially now

after the visit by our president and his wife.

[hack89]

14. That makes no sense

US trade is vital to their economies.

[Arctic Dave]

44. China could fill any gap we make by our departure.

So could India.

[hack89]

52. Two major unsubstantiated assumptions there

1. China and India have the same demand for all of their exports at the same price.

2. China and India can replace all goods imported from America at the same quantity and price.

Usually smaller economies tailor their markets for trade within the regional trading zone - in this case a zone dominated by America. For example, one would think their export strategies concentrate on the US market because of its size and diversity.

[Arctic Dave]

55. Depends on the commodity.

People said Venezuela's oil could only be refined by US refineries and they needed to do as the US told them. Come to find China built refineries to use Venezuela's oil.

Never assume things are static, that is how companies fail.

[hack89]

60. I assume nothing - that is why I questioned your certainty.

to cut off trade with a America without years if not decades of planning and preparation would be disastrous.

[Arctic Dave]

63. It would not be a lightswitch but it can easily be done.

I would guess they will begin to withdrawal from joint exercises and start rolling back anything else while they court other partners.

[hack89]

70. So give us a real world example where a country or trade region did exactly that

it has never happened before as far as I know.

Many of these countries have free market economies - the government doesn't have the power do tell them who they can and cannot trade with.

Brazil is the economic powerhouse in the region with the world's 6th largest economy - they dwarf all the other countries in the region. They don't give a damn about Snowden. Without them, nothing will change.

[timdog44]

84. And it might have never happened before

but it certainly would be the start of something that could radically change the dynamics of our world.

It might even be the answer we need in our country, to start to be more reliant on our own selves. It would boost our economy and self sufficiency. We may be forced to do the thing that would be the saving of America.

[hack89]

89. They have no need or desire to make such a change.

they are not going to gamble with their economies over Snowden.

[timdog44]

100. Snowden is just small

potatoes to what the southern part of the Western Hemisphere has legitimate gripes about.

[hack89]

125. Perhaps

they are still not going to blow up their economies over those issues.

[HooptieWagon]

82. There are refineries in Curacao, less than 100 miles off Venezuelan coast. nt

[timdog44]

114. Not so sure

what it is that the US has in trade that is so vital to their economies. We really don't manufacture much here anymore other than war materials.

[hack89]

128. Manufactured goods represent 86% of America's exports - $1.3 trillion in 2011 alone.

Here are the top 10 manufactured products that we export.

http://www.businessinsider.com/usa-manufactured-products-exports-america-2012-3?op=1

[timdog44]

132. Manufactured goods may have

been 86% of American exports. I wonder, though, where they were manufactured. A number of things that indicate that they were made in America, but the parts were made elsewhere and just assembled in America.

This article indicates that America probably imports twice as much as in exports. A troubling matter on losing money.

[hack89]

133. It is clear your mind is made up so why don't we just call it a day? nt

[timdog44]

135. Don't give up.

This is exactly why I am here. To learn. I am doing so much research to answer you. I think one of the big things I have a problem with is the amount of import we have. I admit to leaning to being an isolationist. I don't like the fact that the USA relies so heavily on other countries imports. I think we have the intelligence and ingenuity to do for ourselves. If we can stop relying on other countries for goods and products, that could easily be produced here, and pay our people better money to produce them. I don't begrudge other countries making and selling products, but I see a lot of it as an evolution. One that we have gone through. One that, if we have to share with other countries, only lowers the living standards of people in America.

[dipsydoodle]

17. Latin America would probably be fine just shipping all their stuff to Europe.

Aside from that this might be a good opportunity to kick all US corporations out of Latin America too.

Elsewhere you'll also find the talks concerning the US / EU trade may have been put on ice for a few weeks.

[Arctic Dave]

45. I think this wouyld be a great time to kick out ALL of the "drug warriors" out of the region.

You couldn't ask for a better time to clean house.

[cali]

12. Not going to happen. Not a chance.

Not in the U.N. and not anywhere else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. What, an old fashioned trade war?

This shit is quite serious south of the border.

The US might be a member of the UN Security Council and armed to the teeth...skinning cats happens in many ways.

[cali]

23. Not over this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Yes, yes over this.

This is the most serious of incidents and the people themselves in the ALBA nations might even demand it.

Nor is this the first incident either.

[OilemFirchen]

59. Is there a term for howling hyperbolic hysteria, based on batshit bloviating blather?

Prolly not, I guess.

But there should be.

[cali]

76. look nadin, this was a despicable incident and Bolivia is furious as are

other South American states, but this is not going to result in a breaking off of diplomatic relationships or the cutting of all trade with SA. It's just not realpolitik to believe that.

This contretemps- and that's what it is- will not result in momentous changes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. You realize Latin America has now international organizations that did not

Invite either the US or Canada?

Real politic is in the equation of LatAm that they want to break from the US and the heavy weight of the Monroe doctrine, and China provides some of that.

Twenty years ago, you would have been very correct since unity among Latin nations was a very nice theory. Over the last generation that environment has changed...

[cali]

81. we'll see who's correct here within a rather short period of time

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. 72 hours, since conasur is meeting right now.

And Bolivia has asked, chuckle, the UN to bring this to the security council...tripple chuckle.

[cali]

85. Yes, I posted that Bolivia was bringing a complaint to the U.N. hours ago

what's with the "chuckling"? Is that supposed to be some sort of astute commentary?

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. We are a permanent member of the security council

In the UN it will go nowhere.

[indepat]

137. We both know that as a permanent member of the security council and a superpower, the US

has had a virtual free hand to do as it wishes since WWII: its stark record is readily available for research and it ain't all pretty. What perhaps is different since 9-11 is the US has granted itself an exclusive franchise to essentially do whatever it wants any where in the world in the war on terra and this air of supreme authority has probably worn thin with many and any displeasure would likely be cumulative. So those who say politics and business will continue as usual in the near term/mid term, much less the long term, might have a surprise coming.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. Yup

We are at the leading edge of that

[timdog44]

86. And the reason being

the arrogant attitude of the US toward what our government has considered third world countries. And the interference we have promoted in the governments that our government does not think is pulling the correct lines. How dare they elect a president who thinks of the people first and not American corporations.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Oh trust me, I get it

born and raised in Mexico City. I am betting on marches today.

This is a major incident, one that will not be salved with Walmart going, please, pretty please.

In fact, I hope some of the affected countries kick our drug warriors out, for starters

[timdog44]

97. I think I am again

thinking along the same lines as you. Maybe not on everything, but close.

[FSogol]

54. Exactly. All of the S. American leaders can bluster about opposition to the US,

which is good for support at home, while quietly taking all of the US dollars and trade which is good for support at home.

[hack89]

57. Their economies are dependent on US trade

they are not going to crash their economies over this.

[timdog44]

78. I would guess just visa versa.

Our economy is dependent on their trade. And back and forth. I doubt there are many countries who could not survive on their own. Or a group of countries called South America/Central America who could easily survive without the US trading with them. After all about the only thing of importance we export to them is poisonous food products.

[hack89]

87. No combination of countries in the region

will make up for the US market. We exported $161 billion in goods and service to the region in 2010.


Food is not a major export to the region - we are after all talking about a major food producing region. Manufactured goods are the prime export.

Here is a breakdown:

The top export categories (2-digit HS) in 2009 were: Machinery ($72.3 billion), Electrical Machinery ($55.8 billion), Vehicles ($45.7 billion), Mineral Fuel and Oil ($31.6 billion), and Plastic ($23.3 billion).

U.S. exports of agricultural products to the Western Hemisphere countries totaled $37.7 billion in 2009. Leading categories include: coarse grains ($3.6 billion), red meats, fresh/chilled/frozen ($2.7 billion), snack foods (excluding nuts) ($2.0 billion), fresh fruit ($1.9 billion), soybean meal ($1.8 billion), soybeans ($1.8 billion), and fresh vegetables ($1.7 billion).

U.S. exports of private commercial services* (i.e., excluding military and government) to the Western Hemisphere were $139.8 billion in 2008 (latest data available), up 7.6% ($9.9 billion) from 2007

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/americas

[timdog44]

102. Also from that article.

"U.S. goods and services trade with the Western Hemisphere totaled $1.7 trillion in 2011. Exports totaled $817 billion; Imports totaled $865 billion. The U.S. goods and services trade deficit with the Western Hemisphere was $47 billion in 2011"

I take it from that, that we import more than we export. My guess is that the goods supplied my the US could easily be replace by other big manufacturers about the world. And if they were judicious about the act, could begin to do a lot of the manufacturing themselves. This globalization "thing" is going to be the destruction of many a country, and especially ours.

[JaneyVee]

15. He doesn't seem to be scaring anyone that much. This is the most non-chalant apprehension of

a fugitive I've ever seen. The administration almost seems like they could care less about getting Snowden. Almost a "have fun in whatever country decides to take you" attitude.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. That is why we had a NATO alert.

That is quite non chalant I must say

[maddezmom]

30. Do you have a link to the NATO alert?

[FSogol]

58. Here you go:

http://www.noradsanta.org/

Hope NORAD is a suitable replacement for NATO and Santa is a suitable replacement for Snowden.

[JaneyVee]

49. I would like to see a link or evidence. Not saying you're wrong, just that I need proof.

The BEST thing we can do during these debates is to stay attached to reality. The minute hyperbole enters the debate we lose focus.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. All states that closed their air space at the same time are NATO members

You think that was coincidence? I don't.

This is now so much beyond Snowden it's not funny

[Maedhros]

110. France is not a member of NATO

But it's hard to imagine how all these countries would act in unison without U.S. pressure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. France is in a strange place

It is not a member strictly speaking, but part of unified command through the Franco-German brigade and has a permanent observer in Brussels.

But technically not a member, you are right.

[Maedhros]

119. It appears that France now claims that it did not close its air space to Morales.

Don't know what to make of that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. Like the one from us last night

that we had nothing to do with this... reaching for this.



They just do not pass the smell test.

Hollande was elected on a left agenda, I am betting on marches in Paris over this

[Maedhros]

134. I admire the French Left

They occasionally disapprove of what their government is doing.

[tammywammy]

140. France became a full NATO member again back in 2009. n/t

[Maedhros]

146. Hmm. Missed that, I guess.

I stand corrected.

[Downwinder]

16. Every bully attracts sycophants.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Yes

[KittyWampus]

25. a post fit for DU's Drama Queens

[Proud Liberal Dem]

27. You're talking about US as a "rogue state"?

I have issues with some things but, c'mon!

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Believe it or not that is the talk abroad

[Proud Liberal Dem]

43. It's more of a "rogue state" now

than it was under our last (P)resident? Unbelievable

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Well, bush the lesser did not go and make friends

But the Latin press is on fire this morning.

[MineralMan]

29. Uff Da!

Just Uff Da!

[timdog44]

91. Not a term I have heard

used since I lived in Northern Minnesota.

[Hydra]

34. Interesting side perspective

But yes, the fact that they forced another nation's plane down to search for Snowden is revealing in a lot of ways. The fact that the EU members helped with it, that they were willing to make a diplo faux pas of this level to pick up Snowden, and that he wasn't found all add up to a "Wow..."

So much for the idea that they won't scramble jets for him. If Putin allowed it, they'd probably nuke the airport he's stuck at.

[Whisp]

39. Oh, for dog butt Jesus cripes! lol

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[starroute]

48. I think the effects will be more subtle -- and Hollywood may get pinched

Up to now, for all its flaws, the United States and its cultural exports have served as symbols of democracy. But how much longer will that remain the case?

Batman, Superman, Star Wars, Star Trek -- all these have the assumptions of American exceptionalism and bully-boy-ism built into their very fabric. What happens when the rest of the world starts to see them not as good holiday entertainment but as a reminder of everything they hate and fear about American foreign policy?

Blue jeans and hoodies have been the standard attire of protesters -- but what happens when it becomes apparent you can't protest against America by wearing American fashions? What if new styles catch on that are designed as a deliberate "bugger off" to Uncle Sam?

So far, the global protests have been directed against neoliberal economics in general and against the corrupt ruling classes of each country involved. But what happens if the US comes to be seen as the hidden hand behind all the oppressive local elites? This is already happening in Egypt, where protest signs (and not just that one obvious photoshop job) are describing Morsi as an Obama puppet.

Now that America no longer manufactures much of anything, our cultural exports have become essention to the economy. This is one reason the Trans-Pacific Partnership has so many abusive "intellectual property" clauses. But if Brand America becomes toxic, what then? What will we have to sell any longer that the rest of the world wants to buy?

And perhaps that's the real answer to how you deal with a rogue state. You just stop buying their stuff -- because it no longer upholds your own core values.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Skinning this cat in other words.

Exactly.

A trade war. One driven by people in many ways.

[KoKo]

99. yes...that's the long term danger. That they won't buy our culture anymore...

but, one of our biggest exports is military weapons. Cutting that off will be harder.

[starroute]

111. Not that hard if we keep building back doors for surveillance into everything

Weaponry these days is heavily computerized -- and that means it's vulnerable to electronic surveillance. There are already countries that have dumped Windows for official use in favor of Linux, because you can see what's in Linux and you can't see what's hidden in Windows.

There may come a time when we can still sell tear gas canisters to the world's dictators, but not much else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Remington shotguns too

They have no computers to them...and I think we are going there.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

62. Depends how much power the rouge state has

In our case, we have been rouge since 12/12/2000 and there isn't much the world has been able to do, especially when they are dependent on our petro dollars, and under thumb of our world police.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. I suspect we will start to see effects now

This little kerfunkle removed all illusions that things would get better.

[ProSense]

65. So

"So here is the problem...how does the rest if the world deal with a rogue state?"

...we're no longer a "dying empire," but a "rogue state"?

Why are countries still cooperating with the United States on Snowden?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023156720

[RudynJack]

66. Oh criminy...

What nonsense.

[Romulus Quirinus]

67. In US Dollars, of course! nt

[BlueStreak]

93. This is the "New World Order" Bush I talked about. Nobody understood him. Most still don't get it.

America in 2013 is a bundle of contradictions.

1) We are a technology leader, and many of the technologies have led eventually to a better quality of live all over the world.

2) We are mostly a peaceful country interested in settling matters through diplomacy.

3) But when you look at our military interventions since WWII, most have not been for good reasons. I would have to think more about Korea. Kosovo was probably for good reasons, as was Libya. The others are mostly for bad reasons. So it is a mixed bag at best.

4) We have pushed the arming of the entire world. Some of that would have happened anyway because war seems to be the nature of humanity. But our society has largely become focused on projecting military power, and selling same to friends. Actually we don't limit it to friends. Anybody who has money to spend quickly becomes a friend.

5) We have always spied, but the magnitude of the recent activities is mind boggling. It truly is shocking the rest of the nations of the world. It is not just the Snowden info. The original Wikileaks package opened a lot of eyes around the world.

The upshot is that our friends must be starting to wonder if a real monster is developing. They must be wondering how much longer before it becomes completely out of control, if it is not there already. They must be wondering whether there is a day ahead when they will have to band together to plan strategies to keep the US in check. Maybe they are doing that already. Maybe that is why we are spying on them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Merkel's comment was revealing

as to your last point.

I think they are, and we are.

And the problem is that we can be brought down to size by measures that Americans will not like... I think trade wars are in our future, definitely.

And since we build nothing of consequence...

We are also going to have to deal with the fact that we ARE an empire.

[BlueStreak]

141. I WELCOME trade wars. The last thing we need is free trade.

Build locally. Buy locally. We are more industrious than anybody when we want to be. We can win a trade war, and in the process, keep a lot of American jobs in America.

And that is precisely why the people controlling this country will never let that happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. But if the rest of the world closes trade borders

No choice really

[BlueStreak]

143. The people who want this "new world order" will not let that happen

There are nations, and then there are the people in charge. We must never confuse the two.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. Shifting alliances

That is all

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

94. We can trust America to continue it's usual sledge-hammer "diplomacy" of threats and intimidation.

[Cali_Democrat]

98. Stupid post

Countries aren't going to break off trade relations because of Snowden. Also...if you look at US trade statistics, we import much more than we export.

You also say that we "colonized" Europe?

You talk a lot, but you rarely make any sense.

[dionysus]

106. par for the course i'm afraid...

[dionysus]

105. .

[DeSwiss]

118. When you find yourself in a bad relationship it is time to.....

...[font size=5]WITHDRAW[/font].

- We give them our power by agreeing to act within their system. In so doing, we legitimize it and everything it does.

K&R

“Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission.

How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.

I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. ” ~ Alan Moore, V for Vendetta

“Since mankind's dawn, a handful of oppressors have accepted the responsibility over our lives that we should have accepted for ourselves. By doing so, they took our power. By doing nothing, we gave it away. We've seen where their way leads, through camps and wars, towards the slaughterhouse.”
~ Alan Moore, V for Vendetta

[bike man]

122. Imagine what *can* happen if what you say comes to pass: "...but regions can start

treating the US as persona non grata and close their borders to US trade..."

Imagine, just imagine, going to a store and looking in the garments (for example) and NOT seeing 'made in China, Mexico, Thailand, Bangladesh, Bolivia, and so on and instead 'made in USA'

Inasmuch as the US is one of the largest consumer nations, if not *the* largest, not a single one of them will make the US a 'persona no grata' for more than a day or two. And if they do, the Walmart that everyone loves to hate will either dry up or start buying US products again.

TV sets, cameras, cars - all that stuff can be made within CONUS.

But random doom-saying is more fun.

[Cleita]

123. In South America, they are going to have to set aside petty squabbles and come together

as a coalition of states with one purpose, keeping the USA out of their business. My mother, who was Chilean always told me that Americans got away with murder there because they were good at divide and conquer style politics and the South Americans were always happy to cooperate with border issues, trade embargoes and all. Even nukes would be a minor issue then because if they join together, isolating English speaking North America, it would cause some big economic problems for both the USA and Canada. I include Canada because they always seem to go along with us on things like this. However, if they don't play nice that would even further isolate the Americans.

I wonder too what is behind the curtain that this young man is about to reveal.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. They have been for some time

Like a generation or so

The emergency meeting with conasur has started.

[WillyT]

139. K & R !!!