NYT: Barring of Bolivian Plane Infuriates Latin America as Snowden Case Widens

[dkf]

CARACAS, Venezuela — The geopolitical storm churned up by Edward J. Snowden, the fugitive American intelligence contractor, continued to spread on Wednesday as Latin American leaders roundly condemned the refusal to let Bolivia’s president fly over several European nations, rallying to his side after Bolivian officials said the president’s plane had been thwarted because of suspicions that Mr. Snowden was on board.

Calling it a grave offense to their entire region, Latin American officials said they would hold an emergency meeting of the Union of South American Nations on Thursday.

President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner of Argentina said the episode had “vestiges of a colonialism that we thought was completely overcome,” describing it as a humiliating act that affected all of South America.

President Rafael Correa of Ecuador said in a post on Twitter that the situation was “EXTREMELY serious” and called it an “affront to all America,” referring to Latin America.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/world/snowden.html?_r=1&

[Pholus]

1. Huh, first direct statement that Italy DID deny the airspace.

"Officials said that as a new flight plan was being drawn up, Italy also denied permission for Mr. Morales’s plane to use its airspace."

[dipsydoodle]

3. France has apologised too

which confirms they denied access as well.

[Pholus]

4. Absolutely, but the other countries were staying vague.

And France's position is that any initial denial came only from confusion on their part.

Confusion which apparently rose to authorization from President Hollende, who I imagine is not making those calls for every flight going through French airspace.

Wonder why he got involved?

[morningfog]

10. Portugal has also admitted that they refused landing, but not airspace.

So, now we have confirmed denial of access from Portugal, France and Italy.

THe answer to your question is easy. The White House got involved and everyone did their bidding.

[Bolo Boffin]

50. "The White House got involved and everyone did their bidding."

Meanwhile, the EU is debating whether to cut off trade talks with the United States, France leading the way. But boy, they're all puppets of the mean old Obama!

[morningfog]

55. The world is not a zero sum place. It is not all or nothing.

Nor do I characterize the President as "men old Obama."

By the way, you know why the trade talks are on the chopping block right?

[Bolo Boffin]

56. Yes, I know why the trade talks are on the chopping block.

Because of the revelations by Snowden. So if France is angry enough to cut off the trade talks because of what the US was doing, why would they then jump at the chance to cooperate with the States because Obama leaned on them to catch Snowden?

In other words, yeah. That's my point.

[MADem]

27. He was in Belgium, I think.

He might have enjoyed a bit of "plausible deniability" cover owing to the fact that he was out of town.

Easy for Hollande to "get involved" after the crisis has passed.

My guess is that the bottom line is that the entire European community didn't want Evo to open the plane door and dump Snowden on the tarmac with an EU asylum request clutched in his hand. The situation was made more confusing by Evo joking in Moscow about giving Snowden a ride, and Evo's pilots wanting to deviate from their flight plan and get fuel in places where they were not granted clearance to land. His pilots wanted to refuel in Lisbon, and asked TWICE to go there, and Portugal said no. They asked to refuel in Spain, and Spain said no (these requests were made from Russia, before they left). Spain said "Gas up in the Canaries" and that's how they filed their flight plan. Then they tried to deviate while in the air.

The incident could have been prevented had the pilot programmed in an earlier fuel stop, and not tried to take the a/c to the outer edge of its capability. I'd also be interested in knowing if there really was a "fuel gauge" issue, or if the whole drama was more about boosting Evo's international profile. If that's what he was going for, he certainly pulled it off, for the moment, anyway.

This has also given a few South American countries with significant internal problems (petty border fights, bad economies, high unemployment, etc.) an external boogeyman to focus on--pay no attention to your shrinking paycheck, shake your fist at USA instead! Never mind that there are no goods on the shelves, blame USA for disrespecting this guy in Europe! Yell "colonial" and "imperial" to beat the band--it's better than focusing on "No jobs," and "Low wages."

[Pholus]

30. Just think about ALL the problems that would have been avoided

if the Justice Department wasn't making secret interpretations of laws allowing mass surveillance of the US population.

[MADem]

39. And you know this because a thief who is falling apart in front of the world suggested it? nt

[Pholus]

54. It's far too late and insulting to pretend that this is all Snowden's fabrication.

[sabrina 1]

43. How condescending and completely Imperialistic of them to think that an intelligent man

like Morales would act like a common drug dealer. The racism in our policy and in general, as the leaders of Latin America remarked on themselves, is simply disgusting.

Would they ever in their wildest imaginations assume such behavior by a 'white' European leader? Of course not.

Those Brown people who have had the temerity to establish their Independence, how dare they, are likely to act like common thugs and ignore the ramifications of such an act, ignore the rules of extradition?? How arrogant to make such an assumption.

Morales is far too intelligent to even consider such a thing when there are many other agreed upon International rules for such a case.

But the fact that this was assumed about him, only confirms the disgusting racism still prevalent in the former, still Imperial, Colonists in Europe and here, as Correa and other Latin American leaders pointed out tonight.

I hope they are learning a lesson from this, but I doubt it, having had experience with some of the 'elite' there and here. In their eyes, which has never escaped Latin Americans and is the reason why they formed their version of NATO, those 'people' are still 'colonists' or should be.

Disgusting.

[MADem]

44. White European leader? Gee, I thought everyone was blaming the black American one here!

The "brown leader" has acknowledged that he fucked up, FWIW--he "regrets" offering Snowden asylum. He's still gonna milk this issue for a bit, because it suits his internal domestic purposes and his regional "cred," but Snowden ain't gonna be besties with Evo any time soon.

[sabrina 1]

46. You are wrong. Bolivia was asked, right before this flight, whether they might grant

asylum to Snowden and this was Morales' response:

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=51569

Bolivian President Evo Morales said he would be willing to grant Snowden asylum. "Yes, why not," Morales said. "We are worried at the demeanor of countries such as U.S.A."

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro said Snowden deserves protection, not prosecution, according to Reuters. "What crime has he committed? Did he kill anyone? Did he plant a bomb and kill anyone?" Maduro has been quoted as saying. "No, much better, he has prevented wars, and he has stopped illegalities being committed against the entire world. For this, he deserves the protection of the world."

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1274375/nsa-leaker-snowden-applies-asylum-cuba-venezuela-bolivia-options

Bolivian President Evo Morales, who is also in Moscow, told the RT network that “Bolivia is ready to give political asylum to people who expose spying activities, so to speak … If we receive a request, we are willing to consider it.”

You really should check the facts before offering your opinion. And many people now believe that it was the apparent willingness Morales to offer asylum to Snowden, that caused the assault on his plane. The Austrian Minister has set aside any doubt that this was the reason the plane was diverted to Austria, by 'confirming that Snowden was not on the plane'.

They endangered the life of a President of a sovereign nation and if they 'milk it for all it's worth', the fault lies with those who were stupid enough to do such a thing,

And yes, the racism in our and Europe's foreign policies is historic and disgusting and this incident has once again exposed it, not that that was necessary.

[MADem]

47. Uh OH..... Your Catholic.Org and South China Morning Post cites are ....er...not operative.

Maybe YOU should check YOUR facts before getting all shirty with me. Another way to handle that, instead of getting smartass with that "offering your opinion" snark, might be to say "Say, what's your SOURCE for that assertion?"

Which I will gleefully--yes, gleefully--provide. You just don't have to be So. Damn. Mean. Why you delight it it, I've no idea. It doesn't help your argument, to get all snippy and pissy like that.

No matter how much you cheerlead, your pounding the keyboard ain't going to make a shit's worth of difference, so why be so doggone NASTY? Have a conversation, don't be constantly in High Invective Mode. It's TIRESOME.

Your link--and note the date, which is more recent than your sources: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/04/evo-morales-bolivia

Evo Morales: plane rerouting over Edward Snowden 'a provocation'
Bolivian president says he regrets offering NSA whistleblower asylum, but Europe should free itself from US imperialism

....Morales had suggested while in Russia that he would be willing to consider giving Snowden asylum in Bolivia.

"I regret this, but I want to say that some European countries should free themselves from North American imperialism," he said.....

It is still unclear whether European countries did block the plane and, if so, why. French, Spanish and Portuguese officials have all said the plane was allowed to cross their territory.

So, you see, I am not WRONG--you are.

Why would I make something like that up? I am interested in facts, no matter where they lead.

You want opinion? I will give you opinion. I think Pootie Poot was having a bit of fun, because RT--in English, in Spanish, in Russian--was on that story faster than anyone else. They had reporters in Vienna, ain't that special. Evo isn't stupid; he got more international "face time" out of this incident than he has ever received in his ENTIRE presidential career, which he managed to extend because they rewrote the Constitution, he got more name recognition, face recognition and more people are aware of "Bolivia" than were previous to this. It's a win-win-win for him. And because he's not stupid, he's not going to screw over his largest non-energy sector trading partner, either. He knows the difference between international trade agreements and tossing out bullshit invective for domestic and regional consumption. Something many people on this board can't parse, I've noticed.

At the end of the day, though--read it again--
Bolivian president says he regrets offering NSA whistleblower asylum.

Eddie had better not plan for a mountaineering holiday with Evo.

[Tarheel_Dem]

51. And that folks, is what we call:

[sabrina 1]

79. I am so enjoying this. THAT folks, was in fact a HUGE error, corrected today

in the latest news where Morales once again confirms his country will offer asylum to Snowden if he requests it.

That was, as I so correctly pointed out, a misinterpretation of what he was referring to. Before you go all cheerleady like this, it would save a lot of embarrassment if you got the facts first. Iow, MADem, as I already pointed out, was wrong.

Additionally, the President of yet another country, was similarly misinterpreted as 'regretting his offer of asylum'. The Western media just can't get these translations right, can they? Correa of Ecuador corrected that error today and reiterated his offer of asylum. And Nicaragua has now also offered asylum to Snowden.

Iow, MADem was wrong on Morales, and my 'little Catholic Source' as MADem referred to it, turned out to be right after all.

And just for you since you like him so much

So silly those emoticons, don't you agree? Especially when people turn out to be wrong.

[Tarheel_Dem]

80. The Guardian got something wrong? Quelle Surprise!

Oh, and Comrade Eddie still has to be dug out of that airport bathroom, and put on a flight.

[sabrina 1]

81. What? The Guardian article came from the AP. The Guardian has made plenty of

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:58 PM - Edit history (1)

errors in the past, especially when they use pool reports such as this one. Or when the articles come from their biased, Right Wing columnists. The AP is notorious for biased interpretations of anything that comes from Latin America and the ME.

This article is a perfect example and it fooled you and MADem, well he apparently reaad it, not sure if you did or not, as intended. You should first read stuff before you cheer for it, then when it comes from sources such as this one did, you should watch for stuff like this:

"I regret saying] this, but I want to say that some European countries should free themselves from North American imperialism," he said.

See how they inserted the word [saying]? Lol! I have to give them credit, the old AP, they know how to cover themselves when the deliberately misinterpret something.

As I said, my sources were correct despite MADem's claims to the contrary. And they have both been verified by even later reports today. And even more countries are now offering asylum since the Latin American Leaders' Alliance met to discuss the incredible insult to one of their members. Latin American leaders are not known for backing down especially to Global Corporate Powers who have no power over them anymore.

[Rex]

82. Longtime posters are starting to crack up over recent events.

Too many holes, not enough fingers. Hell by this point, the whole dam dam might collapse under the sheer weight of hubris shown.

Nah doubt it...you know this will all lead to the same ol same ol.

Once you stop focusing on Snowden and start focusing on why he got through so many red flags, it becomes clear how completely inept the entire system is now.

This is all over public embarrassment at how foul the system is now. A sewer.

[Tarheel_Dem]

83. Great. Now find that poll that says Europe is love with Dennis Kucinich.

Oh, make that "hugely popular".

[sabrina 1]

84. Changing the subject? Where's MY applause and the little roly poly guy?

Kucinich was hugely popular in Europe when he became known for opposing Bush's illegal and massively unpopular wars in Britain, France, Germany, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Norway, Austria, Scotland, Wales. I can't believe you didn't know that. In 2003 he was the online most popular candidate for President.

He got the attention of Europeans as one of the few American members of Congress who dared to speak out against those wars.

He married a British woman in 2005. Too bad Europeans couldn't vote, he would have won the WH.

[Tarheel_Dem]

88. Link? An "online poll"? When did you make this up? And why didn't you say that....

years ago, when I kept asking you for proof? This may come as a shock to you, but Dennis Kucinich's in-laws are not EUROPE! You make grand declarations as if you have been appointed spokesperson for a group of people....Europe, Occupy, Wikileaks, etc.

You should just stick with opining, and pull back on your absolutist overuse of the royal "we".

[sabrina 1]

57. Lol, he 'regrets'the incident with Europe, but believes Europe should free itself from

US Imperialism. Your source chose to interpret what was said, rather than simply publishing his words and allow the readers to do so. I've noticed how often this happens when foreign leaders are speaking in their own languages.

I respond to people the way I find them. You set the tone, I assume that is the tone you wish to converse in. How people talk to you is a reflection on how you talk to others. I think other people have mentioned this to you before. Personally I don't care how anyone talks to me, I can handle it without whining.

[MADem]

58. My source is the wonderful, praised, Glenn Greenwald's can-do-no-wrong platform....

So we're going to go with Putin's government financed, multi-camera, overworked "Russia Today" footage, and not GG's liberal paper?

OK, whatever...!

I make it a point to not personally insult anyone posting here at DU. That's childish behavior. If I give them facts and it feels like hell, that's not my problem.

If you're getting mad at me, its cognitive dissonance eating at you, not my "tone."

[sabrina 1]

78. Why would I be mad at you? Especially when I'm right and you're wrong! Lol!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/06/us-usa-security-snowden-bolivia-idUSBRE96509120130706

From today's news, Bolivia's Morales stating again, that he would consider asylum for Snowden, and this time he is joined by two other Latin American nations. Ecuador is a fourth. We have a sad history in that part of the world which has now liberated itself from Western backed dictators. We can no longer dictate to them the way we can to our allies in Europe, or the dictators in Uzbekistan, Bahrain, and all the others who are still under the thumbs of dictators who we support.

[MADem]

85. LOL!!! nt

[mitchtv]

77. nail on the head Sabrina

disgusting; the Spanish more than the rest, behaving like colonial masters, no wonder they are hated in Sudamerica

[flamingdem]

68. This is an accurate take on what happened, people here are still citing early reports

and developing conspiracies. I think it was a confluence of events and incompetence. I'd like to see the Bolivians take responsibility for the snafu with Portugal. Portugal has called them out for not refiling their flight plan even though they got notice.

[sibelian]

2. "The White House declined to comment on whether the American government had anything to do with

the plane’s diversion."

[Warren Stupidity]

5. Uh-oh racist paulbot obama haters have occupied the NYT.

[malaise]

9. Getting up off the floor

I think they did

[idwiyo]

6. K&R

[99Forever]

7. International bullying.

Nice move Obama administration.

[burnodo]

8. The Snowden case?

I think this is a case of profiling, simply because Morales is seen as a leftist so he definitely tried to whisk Snowden away from Russia. Morales should be upset. The world should be.

[reusrename]

16. Stop and frisk the brown guy.

I sure feel safer now.

[socialist_n_TN]

22. Yep. Even if he's the President of a sovereign country...

It doesn't seem to matter.

[sabrina 1]

25. Yes, he is a socialist, in the best sense of the word, democratically elected, not installed like

all the dictators in S.A. before, backed as they were by the US and their other Colonial Allies.

But what they forgot this time was they are no longer going to be dealing with one country at a time anymore in that region.

Thanks to Chavez who was hated by the Western Colonial Powers, because they always hate an 'upstart' subject who is smarter than they are, that region of the world now has its own version of NATO. So an insult to one of its members is an insult to all of them.

In the past we would have dismissed Evo Morales as a 'commie dictator who got what he deserved'. but over the past ten years, while we were stealing resources in the ME, Latin America finally built up its defenses against any further interference from the Western Powers and their Corporations. They try, but its much harder for them now.

[intaglio]

11. Wrong, actually no, this enters the class of so wrong

it does not even get as high as wrongness.

1) The Bolivian plane reported a problem with it's fuel system (specifically a fuel gauge that was not working)

2) This is not an emergency and the Bolivian pilots did not declare an emergency

3) Because it was not an emergency airports do not have to disrupt their holding stacks and landing priorities

4) Various airports either did not have the facilities to for investigation or could not accommodate a non-emergency landing

5) The aircraft was told to return to an airport that had both room in its holding stack and facilities for investigation

6) France did not deny this aircraft access to its airspace

7) Spain did not refuse access to airspace

8) Portugal did not refuse access to airspace

9) ATCs would not give a reason for refusing access to holding stacks, the comment about Snowden is a fabrication by the Bolivians

10) Non-scheduled access to overcrowded holding stacks and landing facilities causes disruption and misery to thousands of people

This is just more outrage addiction.

[randome]

13. 'Outrage addiction'. Well put.

The level of discourse on anything Snowden shows no class and no style.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[longship]

14. I am being non-committal on Snowden here.

Because I don't want to get involved in the chair throwing on the subject.

I have been enjoying your well reasoned posts.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. And you've pulled all this from where?

The only mention of a fuel gauge problem I've seen is the recording talking to the Vienna tower, after they've arranged to land there. The tower asks if they will need assistance after they've landed, and they say no, but they do need to land, as a precaution.

Where does the rest of your scenario come from?

[intaglio]

31. Started with Kos

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/03/1221091/-Bolivian-Plane-Landed-Due-to-Faulty-Fuel-Gauge

who in turn took it from Atlantic Wire.http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/07/tale-re-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart/66838/ The Atlantic Wire uses various sources including the Guardian.

France and Spain not refusing airspace was AP via Yahoo http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-case-france-denies-blocking-bolivia-plane-090257428.html as well as the Wire

The Wire article also has a recording of the Bolivian flight's request regarding assistance

Portugal quoted as allowing overflight.

The only diversion rook place over Austria

There was no "search" just the police requesting permission to walk through.

ATC protocols from talking to an ATC at SF conventions a few years ago followed up by simple reading

The tale about Snowden only came from Bolivian sources

I note our full time "revolutionary" Manny has joined in and he will note that the French apologised for any offense given to the Bolivians, which is normal diplomatic speak for "we don't know WTF you are going on about but it won't harm us to be on your good side (plus we have an aversion to the US)"

As an addition for the rabid conspiracy theorists amongst us the French had pre-approved overflight because the flight plan had already been filed and approved. If France had refused overflight then the flight plan would have been different and probably not routed over Austria.

Edited to add that the ATC protocols have also been confirmed by my brother in law who has had a light pilots license for about 20 years. If you want you can try searching outside the echo chamber you seem to prefer. You might also like to read all of the detail especially the part from Yahoo which directly contradicts Hollande's statement - or are you now saying that, uniquely amongst politicians, French politicians can be trusted.

[MADem]

45. +1,000 nt

[flamingdem]

69. Thanks for that link n/t

[reusrename]

17. A tech stop for fuel was scheduled in Portugal and they were not allowed to fly there.

When they ran out of fuel, they had to land somewhere.

Aircraft do need fuel to stay in the air.

Nobody can seriously be stupid enough to think jets don't need fuel.

Is anyone really that stoopid? Certainly you are not that stoopid, are you?

So, yes, they stayed airborne so long that they were concerned about their fuel indications, and they said so on the radio.

[intaglio]

32. A tech stop is planned

A malfunction is not planned.

A malfunction does not necessarily rise to the level of emergency.

The plane turned back over Austria, not Germany or Switzerland

As the flight plan was already approved, including overflight of France, Spain and Portugal then the lie is that the plane was refused overflight.

As you pointed out the fuel tech stop was already approved by Portugal so they hadn't refused access.

[reusrename]

38. Portugal was refusing permission to land, not entry into their airspace, afaict.

You go fly around in a jet while wondering where your next tank of gas will come from.

You seem to smart enough to never have to worry about such unimportant details.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. We have countries saying their airspace was indeed closed

It did happen...Jesus

[dkf]

24. And no attempt to check the plane for Snowden? That's the smoking gun.

[PoliticAverse]

26. "France did not deny this aircraft access to its airspace" - apparently they did

and have issues a formal appology for it...

A fact that is known to anyone actually following the situation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

Ministry spokesman Philippe Lalliot said: "The foreign minister called his Bolivian counterpart to tell him
about France's regrets after the incident caused by the late confirmation of permission for President Morales'
plane to fly over territory."

[intaglio]

34. Emphasis mine

The foreign minister called his Bolivian counterpart to tell him about France's regrets after the incident caused by the late confirmation of permission for President Morales' plane to fly over territory.

Hoist by your own petard.

[PoliticAverse]

36. Confirming that they weren't granted permission initially as was Morales' claim. n/t

[Cali_Democrat]

28. Also....Austria said that inspecting the passports of passengers is standard procedure

good post

[markpkessinger]

49. Yeah, I bet they do that with every head of state whose plane lands in Vienna!

[MADem]

40. Even Morales said he regretted offering Snowden asylum.

He said it shortly after landing at home.

Part of the drama was fed by his 'jocular' remarks in Moscow.

[markpkessinger]

48. So now the NY Times is making shit up . . .

. . .AND the French government apologized to Bolivia just because it gets its kicks out of having its president apologies to other heads of state for no reason.

I note that among your 10 theses, not one deals with what happened on the ground in Vienna -- which is the core of the story in any case.

[flamingdem]

70. ^^^^^^^^^^ Good summary Intaglio, thank you

[malthaussen]

12. I'm not sure which bothers me the most about this incident...

... the offensiveness of the stupidity, or the stupidity of the offense.

-- Mal

[reusrename]

18. The stupidity of the deniers is starting to bother me a little.

They are actually arguing that jets don't need fuel to fly, so what's the big deal.

Incredible stupidity.

[bobduca]

20. Only a Paulbot would deny that Morales drove his plane from Moscow to Austria

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023164458

[reusrename]

21. Thanks, I missed that one. Hilarity.

"too many U.S. Americans don't have maps and such as.."

[ljm2002]

23. It's not stupidity...

...it's a concerted effort. Sad to see people using the tactic of spreading a lie often enough, thinking if they do so, it will stick.

[intaglio]

35. I do so agree

People who do not look at evidence are a danger

[intaglio]

33. You mean people who actually look at the evidence

rather than jump to conclusions are stupid? Right ... by the way I have a rathe nice bridge in brooklyn you might be interested in buying.

[reusrename]

37. I am talking about someone so stupid that they believe a jet doesn't need fuel.

They believe that since Morales' jet ran out of fuel then that somehow proves that no one ever closed the airspace over Western Europe.

It is staggering stupidity. Beyond belief.

[sabrina 1]

86. Even more staggeringly stupid are those who believe that five countries

just accidentally that day noticed a plane (are all these officials Air Traffic Controllers btw?) in the sky that needed to be diverted from landing for fuel to another country and even when they have stated, as France has, eg, that their minister WAS TOLD THAT SNOWDEN WAS ON THE PLANE (see today's news) they still believe some fairy tale about fuel. Even when the story is that the PLANE WAS SUSPECTED OF HAVING SNOWDEN ON BOARD, they don't HEAR THAT PART and stick to one of the initial excuses, NOW DROPPED, that it was about fuel. And they fail to see that IF IT WAS ABOUT FUEL, then they could have caused the plane to crash by refusing to allow it to land! Talk about staggeringly stupid.

Anyhow, the news reports show that those countries all thought Snowden was on the plane, so that is settled. France has admitted this being the reason for the diversion. Now we need to find out WHO Told them that? One report claims it was the US Ambassador to Austria! But who told HIM??

One thing we know, it was NOT about fuel!

[reusrename]

87. If John Kerry wasn't involved in this, then wouldn't someone be fired already?

That seems to be a pretty safe assumption.

If neither Kerry nor Obama knew anything, and no heads have rolled, then that is the scariest thing I've had to think about since the loose nukes were found in Louisiana. It would seriously make you wonder who is running the shadow government.

Just the idea that some folks here think a jet pilot will just continue to fly around aimlessly while not knowing for certain where their next tank of fuel will come from is just so amazingly, astonishingly stupid to me. Has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen here. And even when you try and explain it to them, they don't get it. And I don't think they are pretending. They really are that stoopid.

[HardTimes99]

42. Nice bon mot! - nt

[Kurovski]

41. K&R. (nt)

[bike man]

52. By way of retaliation for this "...grave offense to their entire region..." the entire region

should ALL refuse any more foreign aid from the US. No more dollars, no more military or other equipment, nothing.

That'll show us!

Oh wait. That would free up some money for the people in the US who need it.

[Tarheel_Dem]

53. Thank You. I keep asking what their being "pissed off" really means in...

the big scheme of things? What? We have to grow our own roses? What? We can finally stop coming out on the losing end of a eff'd up trade imbalance? What's the downside for us?

Latin America is an afterthought for the rest of the world. This, at least, gets them a headline, and it focuses their citizens on the big bad USA, instead of their own miserable lives & rampant corruption.

[ForeignandDomestic]

59. It's misery everytime I read one of your posts.

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 11:37 AM - Edit history (1)

"instead of their own Miserable lives"

What makes your life more fulfilling than theirs... Because you can walk into a Walmart at any time and buy some cheap goods from China?

Because they actually have government leaders that support the overall benefit of their people, instead of politician bought and paid for by the 1% who are more concerned with using massive amounts of wealth and human resources waging another war somewhere and spying on its' own citizens rather than building schools for its children, strengthening Social Security, single payer health care, creating jobs. No they're more concerned with lining the pockets of their corporate pay masters.

It's sad but I will not shed a tear that your beloved empire is coming to an end, all of these over-reaches both foreign and domestically are coming from a position of weakness not strength. Your beloved Dear Leader presidency is becoming a failed one, promise not realized.

The only people who approve of this administrations recent actions are sycophant followers and people who would know more about Love and Hip Hop these days than securing Civil Liberties and protecting 4th amendment rights.

[Tarheel_Dem]

60. "Love and Hip Hop"?

Well, alrighty then. I'm sure that's code for something. Oh, by the way, welcome to DU?



And since you're new, there's no need for further "misery", the Admins have provided this feature that you should take full advantage of....it's called "Ignore".

[ForeignandDomestic]

63. Love and Basketball is that better?

And it's no more of code than you insulting whole races and nations of people in South American calling their lives miserable.

[Tarheel_Dem]

64. I think I've allowed you to take up enough of my time. "Love and Hip Hop" indeed.

[ForeignandDomestic]

65. Indeed! *diot!

[Tarheel_Dem]

71. "*diot"? Namecalling? Very clever. Perhaps you haven't read the TOS. You're allowed to call....

the POTUS all sorts of names, you can rake our Democratic officials over the coals all day long here at (d)U, in fact I think it's a requirement for newbies, but insults between dU'ers, aren't allowed. I haven't called you a name, but perhaps you should take your code words & personal insults & go ahead and employ that "Ignore" feature I suggested. Either that, or I might get the impression that you're one of these guys:

"Take a look on Democratic Underground

They have the gov't paid trolls out, trying to limit the outrage & rebellion on there.

If that is the reaction of hard core Dems to the news stories on the NSA, I want to stoke up some more of it.

Lots of traffic on DU.

It's the most popular Dem internet site, except for Huffy Po - where everything meaningful gets censored."

http://www.dailypaul.com/288556/clapper-and-feinstein-get-caught-lying-big-time#comment-3103138

[ForeignandDomestic]

73. As Martin Luther King said..

"You can't have great disappointment without first having great love".

The people that visit DU and display their frustrations for the most part are loyal Democrats who embraced this party to begin with for the principles and ideology it promoted and we thought it stood for, fighting against poverty, racism, militarism.

When our elected leaders fail to deliver on the promises that were made on the campaign trail, then its' the people's right and to their self interest to voice their displeasure.

If "we the people" wanted to see the continuation and eroding of our civil liberties because of faceless boogeyman terrorist (who we happen to be smuggling weapons to in Syria now, can't make this stuff up) we wouldn't have come out en masses in 2008 for CHANGE.

People and personalities rise and fall, come and go, it's the ideals that change the world, if you attach your political standing on brands then you are ultimately setting yourself up failure, and this is a battle we can't afford to lose because the 1% is playing for keeps.

[Tarheel_Dem]

75. For all your flowery rhetoric, I wonder how many people MLK called an "idiot"?

You started out with code words and namecalling, and nothing you say now, or in the future will mean crap to me.

[ForeignandDomestic]

76. I'm not actually speaking to you in a literal sense...

I've made my point of how much I do or don't regard the person that you are!

It's more so to the people who think in the ilk that you do, people who actually believe they are helping the Democratic cause by defending neocon policies.

[AlinPA]

61. Bolivia has >50% of the world's lithium reserves. Electric cars, maybe?

[Tarheel_Dem]

62. Who has the other 50%?

[AlinPA]

66. Chile (most current production), China, Argentina, few others.

[Tarheel_Dem]

67. I read an article that said Afghanistan might have the largest reserves, but we aren't beholden to..

Bolivia for ANYTHING. One of the perks of being the largest economy, and the only remaining superpower is that even though people talk shit about you, they don't dare close off their markets to $$$$$.

[AlinPA]

74. Yep. Money means a lot. Bolivia has a lot of lithium in the ground, not any large production yet

like Chile has.

[markiv]

72. In the cold war, this could have been WWIII

I'm serious

Intercepting a head of state departing from Moscow?

could have easily moved a DEFCON level