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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPres. Obama should apologize to President Morales
And try to calm this major diplomatic incident down, at once. He should further say the USA respects all countries in South America, and so on. Cowboy diplomacy should have been dropped for good when Bush left office.
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dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)If he's not up for that maybe Tonto could oblige.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)because you know with his all powerful control of our country we will see him running for a third term.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)
Tarheel_Dem
(31,454 posts)
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)The Link
(757 posts)think
(11,641 posts)So president Smith in 2063 apologizing for this little itinerary screw up shouldn't be too hard to muster....
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)then I would say that is a good idea but he should not say sorry if he was not responsible for it.
think
(11,641 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Really?
What do Portugal, Spain, France, Italy and Austria have to gain from violating diplomatic protocol and disrupting a head of state's flight plan, all because Russia leaked false information regarding the presence of Snowden on the plane? Have any of these countries shown a pattern of sucking up to Russia? Do NATO members often follow Russia's lead?
How does that even make sense?
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Its mere deflection. If BOG had any evidence of Russian involvement, there would be ten thousand blue links.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)the inanity of the argument, or the fact that so many appear to buy into it.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)plainly… like Putin released a memo that said "this is a leak, shhhh don't tell anyone".
Melinda
(5,465 posts)I just love your maps. They clarify... so much. So very, very much.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Melinda
(5,465 posts)I prefer the reasonable standard - waiting for the ALL the evidence and then reaching a reasoned deductive conclusion - as opposed to running around with my hair on fire like some prefer. Rumor mongering is, imo, an adolescent behavior. So is posting so called "proof" like a road map and presenting it as a fly over aerial map of multiple countries when it clearly is not.
Your use of that map reveals you to be ignorantly throwing anything you hope will stick in support of your preconceived position OR an attempt at deliberate deception on your part. I don't know which to believe since you've refused to answer the literally dozens and dozens of posts asking you about it. Care to explain?
I'll be here all day.
frylock
(34,825 posts)anything? at all?! I gotta say, you people have some real fucking stones to even show up here and post, let alone unsubstantiated bullshit like this. keep the hits coming.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Rumor?
Frankreich hat die Probleme bei den Überflugrechten für das Flugzeug von Morales bedauert. Der französische Außenminister Laurent Fabius habe sich bei seinem bolivianischen Kollegen David Choquehuanca telefonisch entschuldigt, teilte die Regierung in Paris am Mittwoch mit.
Frankreichs Präsident Francois Hollande erklärte, es habe "widersprüchliche Informationen" über die Passagiere an Bord gegeben. Als er aber erfahren habe, dass es das Flugzeug des bolivianischen Präsidenten gewesen sei, habe er unverzüglich die Überfluggenehmigung erteilt, sagte Hollande in Berlin.
http://derstandard.at/1371171456207/Spanien-und-Frankreich-dementieren-Luftraumsperre-fuer-Evo-Morales-Flugzeug
France has sent its regrets to Morales for the problem with granting permission to fly through French air space. The French Foreign Minister, Laurent Fabius called his Bolivian counterpart, David Choquehuanca and apologized, the (French) government in Paris announced on Wednesday.
French president, Francois Hollande explained he was given conflicting information about the passengers on board (Morales' plane). Once he learned that it was the plane of the Bolivian president, he authorized the overflight without hesitation, said Hollande in Berlin.
The French president's story is diplomatically evasive. But the effort not to offend anyone tells a great deal. The French president is trying to be tactful to everyone and not offend anyone, but if he though Snowden was on the plane, then we can assume that he knew all along that the plane belonged to Morales. The Bolivians are right to be upset. We would be enraged if any country did that to President Obama.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)entire drama.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)The Falcon 900 should never have flown over Austria. But then the pilot supposedly reported problems with the gas gauge and requested permission to land in Vienna's Schwechat airport. On board the plane which was coming from Moskow and on which was written, "multinational state of Bolivia": President Evo Morales.
It landed around 11 P.M. Soon thereafter, the Vienna foreign ministry received an urgent call. On the other end of the line: US Ambassador William Eacho. As Die Presse discovered, he claimed with great certainty that Edward Snowden, the person sought by the US for having uncovered the most recent surveillance scandal was on board (the plane). Eacho referred to a diplomatic note in which the USA requested the extradition of Snowden.
Die Falcon 900 hätte Österreich nur überfliegen sollen. Doch dann meldeten die Piloten angeblich Probleme mit der Treibstoffanzeige und baten um Landeerlaubnis in Wien-Schwechat. An Bord der aus Moskau kommenden Maschine mit der Aufschrift "Estado plurinacional de Bolivia": Präsident Evo Morales.
Sie landete gegen 23 Uhr. Kurz danach ging im Wiener Außenamt ein dringlicher Anruf ein. Am anderen Ende der Leitung: US-Botschafter William Eacho. Wie "Die Presse" erfuhr, behauptete er mit großer Bestimmtheit, dass Edward Snowden an Bord sei, der von den USA gesuchte Aufdecker jüngster Abhörskandale. Eacho habe auf eine diplomatische Note verwiesen, in der die USA die Auslieferung Snowdens verlangten.
http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1426275/USA-verlangten-von-Wien-Snowdens-Auslieferung
chimpymustgo
(12,774 posts)think
(11,641 posts)
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Head of state held against his will and the apology delivered by an EMPLOYEE...
good Lord.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 02:26 PM - Edit history (1)
1. You don't know that. Neither do I.... but you don't.
2. You can't really have a head of state fucked about and expect the situation to die down unless the head of state of the country doing the fucking about mans up over it. You might find a it a little galling, but, you know, that's part of being head of state. You speak for the country. It's really just how it is. Even if Obama didn't do it, if he doesn't apologise for his country's actions, he really just looks like an incredibly colossal jerk.
"You South Americans are BENEATH me" sounds fun on the Internet, but he can't really do that. American businesses operate in South America.
Which leaves us only the question of whether the US was responsible for the fucking about.
What's YOUR take on that?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)There is no proof we had anything to do with this. I do not like what to the president of Bolivia but there proof this nation had anything to do with it.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Or at the very least suggesting that he is VERY mistaken.
As for having no proof, I'm sure you'll have seen the threads indicating that the US ambassador to Austria made the call. Do you disbelieve that?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)against our nation and if they are not true then he is mistaken. That is yet to be proven.
I do not doubt a call was made to Austria and it is interesting, but in order for there to be a presidential statement we have to deal with fact. Maybe the US is responsible and the president is thinking of his next move. I do not know.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)It's only going to take ONE stupid RW twit to start capitalising on this garbage.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)is only going to make them finger the US.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)The US can say sorry and move on.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)And the Ambassador's involvement has been known from the beginning. Either Obama has lost control of his administration, or he was in charge of an epic clusterfuck. He could easily calm things down with a public apology...I guess he's just too arrogant to admit he fucked up.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)plane was an outrage and if we had something to do with it then I say sorry and move on.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)And then leaving European allies to fend for themselves. Certainly an apology is in order. Only explanation not to do so is arrogance.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
lark
(26,081 posts)I certainly don't, he seems very much in charge of our government.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)lark
(26,081 posts)If it was done, he allowed it, so is responsible for the act. If he didn't, we would have heard about such and such exceeding their authority and being let go. I have heard no moral outrage about this from anyone in his administration, have you?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I think the president should keep silent and let it die out. The Europeans have to deal with the fallout.
lark
(26,081 posts)It's not just the Europeans, it's our government too, I'm very sad to say. Burying your head in the sand is hardly ever a winning tactic.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)saw. Do you have a link?
Caretha
(2,737 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)If he did not do it then I say he should come out and say so.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)The worse it will be for the US. I suspect the EU nations involved will not like being left out to dry for long.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Obama's silence put them on tje spot. Now they are in CYA mode and pointing fingers at Obama.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)gave would suffice to make the story go away. It failed, thanks to Morales and other SA nations refusing to be rolled over.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)I am sorry that your concocted media circus has not had the desired results. You took a chance and lost. Shit happens. With any luck, however, your constituents will view this in a positive light and your poll numbers will get the standard "America is Satan" bounce.
All the best to you and yours.
Sincerely,
Barack
P.S. Michelle says, "Your hair is fabulous!"
Bobbie Jo
(14,344 posts)Perfect. 
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)
sibelian
(7,804 posts)
No clue.
You are brilliant. 
Rstrstx
(1,648 posts)And just to be polite he should invite him to the White House for a nice chicken dinner
LiberalLovinLug
(14,689 posts)Blaming Morales for his forced landing? And that he stuck to his guns and did not allow himself and Boliva by extension be treated like a criminal?
This is about as funny as a school yard bullies' friend lording over his recent victim with "ha ha, you asked for it loser, that'll teach ya!, stop crying, your just trying to make a scene. Oh yeah and your hair looks girly, ha ha"
Bravo
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)"Blaming Morales for his forced landing?" Nope. Never said that. Never implied that. You made it up.
"And that he stuck to his guns and did not allow himself and Boliva by extension be treated like a criminal?" Really? The US or someone under direct orders from President Obama handcuffed Morales, dragged him from the plane, processed him, interrogated him, and jailed him? Really? That happened? That's what you do with criminals. And that happened, right? RIGHT?
"Oh yeah and your hair looks girly, ha ha" Okay. I said that, but only because it's true.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)that's you kinda skittering around here and there and kind of avoiding making a point in the hope that it looks like you've contradicted something.
It's a skill.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)And, we're not going to make this about me.
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)
Caretha
(2,737 posts)that an international incident involving the United States and insulting the President of Bolivia is funny nor amusing. Not to mention all sorts of international treaties & laws were ignored.
And make no mistake, it is an international incident - it includes: France, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Austria (the US's allies) - our South American neighbors, and Russia.
Regardless of whether President Obama had a personal hand in it, or a rogue CIA or other alphabet agency coordinated it, it embarrasses the hell out of me. It makes me less and less proud of my country. How much lower can we get?
I watched what the Bush/Cheney administration did with all their lying and arrogance, starting an illegal war and killing so many innocents. Look what that did to our reputation and standing in the eyes of the world.
I voted for change - this is not the change I expected.
Your gleefulness, your adolescent attitude and your bigotry is shameful. You do yourself no favors.
Edited to add:
Those that are high-fiving your immature post are not your friends either. Friends don't let friends post drivel and drive, nor do they egg on bad behavior.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)LiberalLovinLug
(14,689 posts)For standing up to ugly behaviour. No it was not funny at all. And all the small minded ones that laugh with him like school kids snickering behind a bully is abhorrent.
HipChick
(25,612 posts)until I see actual proof and not conjecture
Cleita
(75,480 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)told the other countries Eddie was on the plane. And even then, the other countries did not have to react to it by refusing the plane's entrance.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)do anything stupid or wrong.
Your logic is that if we once did something stupid or wrong, we are always guilty of any other wrong of which we are accused, without proof?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)You refuse to see the truth.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Huh?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)LiberalLovinLug
(14,689 posts)"It landed about 11 pm. Shortly after that, the Vienna foreign department received a phone call. The caller was the US ambassador William Echo. "Die Presse" learned that he claimed with strong firmness that Edward Snowden was onboard, the whistleblower of the recent surveillance scandals. Eacho referred to a diplomatic note requesting Snowden's extradition. "
treestar
(82,383 posts)And so far there is only one publication saying that, and it's a right wing Catholic one.
And Mr. Eacho could have done that himself, so maybe he's the one who should apologize or rat on whoever told him to say it.
And it did turn out to be wrong, unless the conspiracy to hide Eddie in that plane was very, very good.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)You're not stupid.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)amerika uber alles.
Response to HipChick (Reply #12)
Post removed
Peace Patriot
(24,010 posts)Morales IS the 'Nelson Mandela' of South America. He has courageously and brilliantly led a political/social revolution peacefully overturning more than a century of white apartheid, in a country with an Indigenous majority, and has not only helped establish democracy in Bolivia but did so in the face of U.S. (Bush Junta) open collusion with a violent white separatist coup attempt in 2008 (--funded and organized it right out of the U.S. embassy).
Your post could not be more offensive to the brown-skinned peoples of Latin America! And President Obama's failure to condemn the diversion of an OFFICIAL PRESIDENTIAL JET, and the violation of a number of international laws as well as gross violation of diplomatic protocol, is offensive like your post is. Given, also, that it is extremely likely (a no-brainer, really) that the U.S. was behind this incident, President Obama has an obligation to mend it, but I doubt that he will. He seems quite comfortable in the role of front bully and liar for the U.S. "military-industrial complex."
There are a number of things President Obama should do, including granting Snowden immunity and inviting him home to detail for Obama, and for all of us ,everything that he knows about our out-of-control MIC. That would be the right thing to do in a functioning democracy--instead of hunting him down to punish and silence him, and, not incidentally, insulting and possibly endangering the elected and revered president of a Latin American country! Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld--those monstrous scofflaws and criminals--would approve of hunting, silencing and insulting. And they would cheer on your "Fuck Morales!" too. What an attitude!
Many of us feel real despair that Obama will ever do the right thing with regard to the MIC, the banksters, Bush Junta war crimes, gross violations of constitutional and human rights, and other absolutely vital matters. He seems to be the tool of these outlaw forces, not their master. You can try to hide from this reality--a lot of people do--and I can understand that. We are living through a very difficult time, as a country. But try not to defensively blame or dismiss or insult other countries' leaders who criticize this country and/or who are its intended victims--who are always having to look out for the U.S.-funded rifleman or fascist coup plotters trying to kill them or overthrow their legitimate government. It is not their fault that the U.S. has become a bully imperium.
It may be too much to ask that one man turn it around--President Obama. He probably wouldn't live long if he tried to. It will take all of us--and a great democracy revolution here. But at the least he could set a tone for reform--such as immunizing Snowden and welcoming his revelations--and attacking some of the structural problems of our democracy, such as the corporate-controlled 'TRADE SECRET' voting machines (all over the U.S.). He doesn't even do this. Maybe he can't--maybe the deals he made to become president forbid it. In that case, it's entirely up to us--to the people of this country--to restore democracy here. But it does no good to get your back up, defensively, and defend the indefensible, and revile the victim, just because Barack Obama is president. That is not good citizenship.
Imagine Bolivians and other Latin Americans reading your post. With the internet, it could go far and wide. You don't believe Morales (and others) that the U.S. was behind this? Fine, you don't have to believe it. But, "Fuck Morales"? If that "goes viral," it will merely help confirm most Latin Americans in their view that that is exactly what the U.S. government did to Morales in this instance, and is doing to them in many other instances, and has done to them for more than half a century. Fuck Latin America!
Please take it back.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,689 posts)good response PP
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Doesn't matter if its POTUS or an anonymous DU poster. Even if Morales is president of a small, poor, country; he still deserves the same respect and courtesies afforded other country's leaders. Treating him like a nobody is only going to rile up anti Democratic Party sentiment among latinos.
Response to HipChick (Reply #12)
usGovOwesUs3Trillion This message was self-deleted by its author.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)But bullies rarely do.
BeyondGeography
(41,101 posts)
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)Clearly you think otherwise. But why?
BeyondGeography
(41,101 posts)He is grabbing the post-Chavez anti-American mantle with gusto. Maduro is charisma-challenged and Correa backed down on Snowden. Instead of demonstrating against TIPNIS, the indigenous population is spray-painting embassies. Not to mention, there is an election next year. Brilliant, really.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Check this out, it's right up your street:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023176246
oh, and here's somewhere else to play:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023164588
Off you go.
frylock
(34,825 posts)
Catherina
(35,568 posts)
Enrique
(27,461 posts)lots of ignorant people disdain countries filled with people that talk funny and wear funny clothes, and love it when our country pushes them around. Some of them are here at DU, some of our President's very strongest supporters.
And apologizing carries political risks. A lot of the ignoramuses (not the ones here) would scream "HE'S APOLOGIZING TO THE ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!!!! AMNETY!!!!!!!!!!" The ignoramuses here would call it a "political masterstroke" that he apologized the the little Mexican fella.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)and these folks are embarrassing Democratic underground.
Skittles
(171,717 posts)Obama would find the swooners here pathetic and silly, and I just don't see him as the kind of guy who would cater to the whims of idiots
Puglover
(16,380 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)The President needs to make heads roll though in whichever department made this colossal mistake.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Now you are getting disgusting.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)That's pretty evident.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)last thirty hours.
treestar
(82,383 posts)but only speculated, and agreed to by you as it's what you want to believe.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)That detaining a head of state for 14 hours is not a wrong?
Or that there is no proof that they did?
There must be a memory hole out there with a lot of shit in it.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Who "detained" him?
Where is the proof that Obama, or the US "detained" someone in a third country?
zeemike
(18,998 posts)So if you want to blame it on the Air Traffic Control people I guess you can....and believe that no one told them to, they just decided it might be fun to do...for "technical reasons"
And of course Bush never tortured anyone, because it was done in a third party country...can't prove the Bush did it.
And it might not be wrong...detaining and torture may not be wrong because maybe they deserved it.
It can all be rationalized away so easly...
treestar
(82,383 posts)Bush has nothing to do with this incident.
They could not land in Portugal and knew that a couple of days ahead of time. So they had to make a different flight plan.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)But was not allowed to cross Spain or France making it impossible., so what is the point?
And Bush is relevant in that if you can't hold Obama responsible for this then you can't hold Bush ether...for the same reasons...he did not actually do it and it was done in a third country like Poland.
treestar
(82,383 posts)There is no evidence against Obama whatsoever. Just suppositions people would like to make. Which is odd considering we are supposedly Democrats or liberals further to the left.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Bush did not give any orders to torture people...but he is still responsible because he was CIC and it happened on his watch...the buck stopped there.
So let's not change the rules of the game to protect a democrat...it makes us look like fools at best and at worst just like the GOP.
treestar
(82,383 posts)that you can think of, without evidence.
OK, assuming that to be logical, what has the US/Obama been proven to have done?
Interesting people will take the word of Evo as truth but not President Obama's.
means never having to say you're sorry.
Morales is an anti-American who is using this to deflect from his issues at home.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)are anti-American, like Americans are anti-Hispanic up here. (Don't even go there and I will show you a wall that everyone is itching to build on the south border.) That doesn't mean we should be trampling all over them showing their elected leaders egregious disrespect. We made a mistake in our intelligence about Morales, caused an international diplomatic incident and now we need to apologize to all we involved in this, those European nations we gave wrong information to and President Chavez with whom we violated the international laws of diplomatic immunity. Correcting a mistake is honorable. Trying to blame everyone else is cowardly. Time for us to man up and do what is right.
dbackjon
(6,578 posts)You are full of shit.
Then why are millions and millions trying to become Americans?
Why are you so Anti-American?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Most don't make it, home that is. I'd have to hate myself to be anti-American cause I'm an American from birth. My passport says so. I'm just pointing out a fact. If you haven't read all the bigoted threads about Morales and before him Hugo Chavez and always the immigration threads that bring out the anti-Hispanic hatred by Americans even right here on DU, you aren't paying attention.
Latinos are anti-American because the international companies with help from our government have exploited them and their nations every since the Spaniards arrived. Actually, we here in the north fought a revolution, which we celebrated yesterday, over exploitation by a colonial, imperial power. Anti-American sentiment in Latin America is no different.
dbackjon
(6,578 posts)One can dislike Chavez and Morales for who they are. Being Hispanic has nothing to do with it.
Does dislike Mussolini make one anti-Italian? No.
Are there racist here? Sure. Plenty of bigots on DU. As a Gay Man, I am fighting the bigotry constantly.
You paint a very broad brush stroke - not all Latinos are anti-American. I would venture that most aren't.
If you go to a country like Bolivia or Venz, you will get many that are, fueled by POLICTICIANs that use anti-Americanism to stay in power and deflect from their horrid records at home.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)individual Americans. They are much nicer to us that we are to Mexicans who live and work here in the US. It's our policy they hate and that Morales hates, but believe me the other nations in Latin America also hate them although they aren't as bombastic about expressing it like their socialists leaders are.
Also, the average man on the street in your Latin American countries is far more astute and educated on politics than the average American. They know BS when they see it.
Peace Patriot
(24,010 posts)Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales have done wonders of social transformation "at home." For instance...
Venezuela has been designed "THE most equitable country in Latin America," by the UN Economic Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean. The statistics on which this is based are recognized by other institutions as well, such as the Millennium Project, and include cutting poverty IN HALF and extreme poverty by over 70% and wiping out illiteracy. The Chavez government's accomplishments also include free health care for the poor, free education through college for the poor, high employment rates, good wages/benefits, pensions for all, high public participation rates, and sizzling economic growth during the 2003 to 2008 period (10%!), now back up to over 5%, post-Bush Junta worldwide depression, all in the private sector (not including oil).
This is WHY the people of Venezuela have voted for the Chavez government, time and again (in an election system that Jimmy Carter recently called "the best in the world" . And it is WHY the people of Venezuela rated their own country 5TH IN THE WORLD on their own sense of well-being and future prospects, in the recent Gallup Well-being poll.
Bolivia has undergone a very difficult recent struggle for democracy against a century and more of white apartheid rule. The majority of Bolivians are Indigenous. The minority whites have owned most of the land and the government. As late as the 1960s, they didn't allow Indigenous to walk on the sidewalks! That's how bad it has been. Morales has led a peaceful, democratic revolution to turn this around--much like Nelson Mandela in South Africa. He has been elected and re-elected by big majorities. Most of his term as president has been spent trying to stabilize Bolivia's democracy in the face of relentless U.S. hostility, including an overt, violent, white separatist coup attempt in 2008, funded and organized right out of the U.S. embassy. But he HAS managed to provide pensions for the elderly, and to improve health care and educational opportunity, for one thing, by nationalizing Bolivia's gas reserves and renegotiating gas contracts to give Bolivia a better deal. I don't have stats on Bolivia's economy, but, believe me, Morales' government has been a HUGE improvement over all the white elite governments before it. All Bolivians are better off, even most of the white separatists (which is why--or part of why--they stopped their coup efforts). (And they stand to benefit enormously from Morales' various negotiations on the gas reserves, the new super-highway from Brazil and port access in Chile, when all of this is done. Most of the gas reserves are in the states dominated by whites.)
You evidently get your information from the corporate press, which routinely lies about the leftist democracies in Latin America. Your statement is packed with their rightwing, pro-corporate propaganda:
"If you go to a country like Bolivia or Venz, you will get many that are (anti-American), fueled by POLICTICIANs that use anti-Americanism to stay in power and deflect from their horrid records at home."
This is just corporate cant. It's very untrue. Neither Chavez (nor Maduro) nor Morales was elected because they are "anti-American." Indeed, none of these leaders IS "anti-American," though they have most certainly criticized HORRENDOUS policies of the U.S. corporate state, such as the war on Iraq, and gross and often violent interference in LatAm countries (including recently) in the course of vast and quite dreadful U.S. corporate exploitation of LatAm and impoverishment and disempowerment of its people. *I* and many others criticize our government for the same things. But these leaders would have had very short terms if they had NOT seriously and successfully addressed the problems that their own fascist elites created in collusion with the U.S., including lack of educational opportunity, lack of health care, lack of jobs, lack of housing and endemic poverty.
There is NO QUESTION that these problems were created by LatAm fascist elites in collusion with the U.S. government, on behalf of U.S. and allied corporations and banksters. Latin America is rich in natural resources that have never benefited the people who live there until now, with the rise of democracy and the election of leftist governments.
I have not gathered, however, that Latin Americans hate north Americans--not at all. They may hate our government FOR VERY GOOD REASONS, but they also, in their way, have approved our original democratic ideals, by establishing democracies and improving their democracies. They in many ways now have better democracies than we do. They are able to elect leaders and governments that, like our own "New Deal," concern themselves with the plight of ordinary people, and would say, like our FDR: "Organized money hates me--and I welcome their hatred!"
Would that we could elect a president like that! Well, many Latin Americans have done so. Chavez (and Maduro) and Morales are among them. There are many others, including the presidents of Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador, Uruguay, Nicaragua, Peru (to some extent) and will soon do so in Chile this year. These are all "New Deal"-like governments. They are all strongly allied with each other. And they are vast improvements over the "neo-liberal" or outright fascist governments that the U.S. government routinely supports and even installs in Latin America. Compare and contrast to U.S. client states, such as Colombia and Honduras, where hundreds of labor leaders, for instance, are murdered by rightwing death squads closely allied to the U.S.-trained/funded militaries and where poverty abounds and is endemic.
Your kneejerk rightwing response is in error. I wish you would take the time to find out the truth. You are not going to get it from the corporate news. They are--universally, without exception--extremely biased, because their owners have vested interests in re-conquering the rather large portion of Latin America that has rejected corporate rule in favor of real democracy.
frylock
(34,825 posts)dbackjon
(6,578 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)dbackjon
(6,578 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)if you know what i'm saying, and I think you do *wink*.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)So he is using the fact that the US asked its allies to close their airspace to him, forced a landing, and searched the plane of the leader of a sovereign country...and all that is his fault?
okaawhatever
(9,565 posts)(prior to the flight) The countries told Morales he would have to agree to not transport Snowden. Didn't ask for proof, just agreement. He chose to not tell the story accurately, and instead turned it into a media circus. The flight recording with ATC revealed they requested landing due to fuel gauge and that was granted immediately. It was Morales who was playing a game. He set out to cause an international incident, and he did. I don't know if France and Portugal had an obligation under treaty to not aide Bolivia if they were transporting someone under indictment from the US, but if Morales wouldn't agree to not carrying Snowden as terms for a fly over it's reasonable that they wouldn't want to get involved. Morales was granted a refueling landing at one of the Cape Verde Islands by Portugal. . This was all prior to takeoff. He was never at risk for crashing and his flight path according to radar shows FAB1 not taking the route he claims. Sorry, we don't owe them dick. He's owes the world an honest explanation of what happened, including his requesting fly over long before they took off, he owes the world an explanation of how he was scheduled to refuel at an island off the W African coast, and he owes the world an explanation as to whether the fuel gauge was a real incident or a staged photo op for him and the Latin American countries. If they want respect, they have to be worthy of it.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)to back up your claim, please tell us your source and link to it.
okaawhatever
(9,565 posts)In Spain, the answer was a bit more direct, coming in a statement on the website of the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
“Yesterday Spain received an authorization request for President Evo Morales’ plane to fly and stop over in Las Palmas from Moscow, which was duly granted,” the statement read, in direct contradiction to Morales’ tale and flight path. “The presidential plane ultimately landed in Vienna. In the early hours of this morning, Bolivian authorities have requested an updated flight authorization for President Evo Morales to fly and stop over on his return to Bolivia. This authorization was issued by Spain this morning.”
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/03/3484030/denial-of-european-airspace-for.html#storylink=cpy
Mr Garcia-Margallo denied reports that Spain - along with France, Portugal and Italy - had closed its airspace to the plane.
He said the delay in Austria meant the flight permit had expired and had to be renewed, so there was "no need to apologise".
Mr Garcia-Margallo's comment is the first official recognition by the European states that the incident with Mr Morales' plane was connected with the Snowden affair
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23201767
Cleita
(75,480 posts)news source you are reading.
okaawhatever
(9,565 posts)airspace rights when the initial flight plan was filed, as I mentioned earlier, due to the fact he wouldn't agree to not carry Snowden. The countries involved could have just wanted to avoid the brain damage. I don't know if there is a treaty issue involved, but what country would want to risk it? Early reports said Spain/Portugal denied refueling on the mainland, but agreed to Los Palmas. The reports have also stated that his original flight path was Russia to Las Palmas to final destination. So, both statements could be correct. Yes he was denied fly over and refueling, but that wasn't after takeoff. There are civil aviation guidelines that wouldn't allow a denial of a plane requesting priority landing. The claim that he as in danger due to refusal of countries is rubbish. Any Air Traffic Controller will tell you that. Countries at war with each other will allow emergency landings. Do you think France and Spain thought, screw it let his aircraft fall out of the sky into one of our cities? Also, I don't doubt the authenticity of the cockpit to atf recording, since if it were faked, Morales would jump all over that. The pilot clearly states he is having trouble with the fuel gauge. My question is, how long did that take to be fixed? Why isn't that being discussed? Did Austria withhold the parts? If Austria wanted to detain him, why didn't they delay the part or the mechanics? There are too many questions that aren't being addressed.
byeya
(2,842 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)Morales has everything to lose and nothing to gain from staging an international incident on this scale simply to make a point about the US. If he wanted to to make comments about the US and their spying all he had to do was return home and release a press statement. What POSSIBLE advantage is there to him in involving Europe? Your theory is utterly nonsensical.
What other bizarre conspiracies do you have evidence for Morales having carried out?
Who is seeking Snowden's extradition?
You have presumably seen the threads indicating that the US ambassador to to Austria made the assertion that Snowden was aboard Morales' plane. Do you disbelieve this? Do you realise that the US state department has not contradicted it?
okaawhatever
(9,565 posts)rights and two that his plane was held in Austria. I don't deny that he was in Austria, I also don't deny that it could have been due to the inspection, but that still has nothing to do with why he landed there. Nor, does it give credibility to his claim that he was denied airspace en route to his destination. My father was a pilot and what little I know made me suspect his claims from the beginning. Additionally, all his statements have never referred to his original flight plan or the fact that a flight plan would have had to be filed before take off. I listed two articles that back up my claims. Mr. Morales has made fantastical claims about the United States in the past. He has stated publicly that he thinks the US will frame him for narco trafficking. (Maybe due to the fact he was/is a coca farmer?) You can google more if you're interested. One of his goals is to legalize the coca plant and openly chews leaves, he has addressed this before the UN.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)You sound like Rush. It's woudl be perfectly obvious to a drooling blockhead that you're looking for explanations that make you feel good.
50% of your response to me is some other issue and has nothing to do with the matter at hand.
Your English is dreadful.
"I don't deny that he was in Austria, I also don't deny that it could have been due to the inspection, but that still has nothing to do with why he landed there."
You contradict yourself in a single sentence.
Additionally, all his statements have never referred to his original flight plan or the fact that a flight plan would have had to be filed before take off.
This statement is, in the classical sense of the word, impertinent.
If you are going to converse with me on this subject, at least go to some effort to pretend to have a point.
I've never heard so mich idiotic nonsense in all my born days. Do you seriously think that typing a word splurge indicating your father's career and silly drivel about Morales being a farmer is relevant to anything at all?
okaawhatever
(9,565 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)this is his fourth term.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Apparently he has hidden files everywhere and if anything happens to him has arranged for them to become public.
One thing every honest person has to agree on, he is a very smart and determined man.
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)His arrogance is alive and well on the Democratic side. Sad and sickening.
liberal N proud
(61,194 posts)Another case of blowing things so out of proportion.
frylock
(34,825 posts)amirite?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)go into hiding. Then there will be numerous posts declaring him a hero.
great white snark
(2,646 posts)Bonus heroism points if he hides in an airport bathroom stall.
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)..and be declared a progressive demi-god/truthsayer.
xiamiam
(4,906 posts)not that he shouldn't golf but gheezh..
Octafish
(55,745 posts)...I'd think he can find time to do the right thing, even if it means "losing face."
treestar
(82,383 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Obama's diplomatic skills resemble shrub's more and more.
DallasNE
(8,008 posts)Which is not assured as recent reporting shows then Obama does owe an apology to Morales. We probably need to wait a couple of more days while things get sorted out. So far I have not seen anything on who issued the order and on what basis. Indeed, was Russia ask not to allow the plane to debark until it was inspected and they did it anyway.
great white snark
(2,646 posts)We speculate like it goin' outta style especially if it's "bad Obama"
I do like your way of thinking, though.
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)Except being the victim of a "scandal" ginned up by the Koch brothers and their allies.
frylock
(34,825 posts) Response to quinnox (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Rex
(65,616 posts)You need to have 100% loyalty (like a dog) to the federal government. AT ALL TIMES.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... the Cult of Personality would scream their heads off if Dubya did it. Now it's okay by them, because their "rock star" did it.
Cowboy diplomacy isn't just for dumbasses anymore.