Would Snowden really be safe in a smallish country?

[dkf]

Doesn't he need to be somewhere our goons won't enter at will?

Look at what we did in Pakistan.

[HipChick]

1. Point is..

I don't think he'll ever be safe...

[railsback]

2. ESPECIALLY in a poor, small country.

[MrScorpio]

3. I guess that eliminates Liechtenstein and San Marino. nt

[HipChick]

4. Both countries are hoping to leverage his technical skills

I suspect they may be disappointed..

[railsback]

5. Yes, they're small

but hardly poor.

[Art_from_Ark]

6. Probably Monaco, too, although it is a rich man's playground

Andorra is iffy.

[flamingdem]

39. Nicaragua seems like a bad idea for this very reason

Very close to Honduras, 40000 gang members. I don't see where he'd live to be safe from any number of threats, the USA being probably the least of his problems

[CakeGrrl]

25. And he'll never be "free". The DOJ has probably been building a case.

Won't go back to the U.S. to face trial.

Can't go anywhere that has an extradition treaty with the U.S.

Can't go where they have turned down asylum requests.

That leaves...

Beggars can't be choosers.

[HooptieWagon]

7. Probably not. At least not in Venezuela and Nicaragua.

Lots, and I mean LOTS, of CIA and DEA assets in those countries. Not much police to speak of. A gringo death wouldn't be investigated thoroughly, if at all.

[mitchtv]

77. one can still disappear in Bolivia

in spite of all the DEA nannies

[The Straight Story]

8. Safe from who? The US is a peaceful nation. We wouldn't harm a flea or a child

unless they were in a truck with their family thousands of miles from the US and one of those family members was someone we labeled a terrorist with no accountability.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

9. He should talk to Branson...

...about the moon.

[ProSense]

10. So the

"Would Snowden really be safe in a smallish country? Doesn't he need to be somewhere our goons won't enter at will? Look at what we did in Pakistan."

...you want Snowden to get asylum because returning to the U.S. means he has to face a trial, but you fear for his life in a "smallish country"?

If people are trying to justify the notion that Snowden will be killed, why wouldn't it dawn on them that he'd be safer in the U.S., in plain sight?

I mean, it seems odd: Oh if he comes back he'll get the Manning treatment, but if he gets asylum he's be killed? Seems the former is better than the latter, but I guess when conspiracy theories are being created, rationale goes out the window.

[dkf]

11. I don't think it's safe for him in the US.

I'm pretty sure they will permanently Bradley Manning him.

[stevenleser]

13. Manning is military. Snowden is civilian. That's a guaranteed significant difference in treatment.

Snowden's treatment would likely be the same as the surviving Tsarnaev brother.

[dkf]

21. Unless they classify him as a terrorist or some other bit of shenanigan.

Look at what they did to the 4th. Secret laws and secret courts. You know they will claim state secrets on him. They won't let us see rulings, they aren't going to let him have an open trial.

[stevenleser]

22. Tsarnaev is a terrorist and is classified that way. That's the treatment Snowden would get. nt

[Romulus Quirinus]

23. We have a history of being nasty to "hackers."

See what happened to Kevin Mitnick, for example.

[stevenleser]

61. If Snowden could get Mitnick's treatment, he'd probably be back here on the next plane

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick#Arrest.2C_conviction.2C_and_incarceration

[Romulus Quirinus]

92. He was the original "evil hacker"

Have you ever seen "Freedom Downtime?"

[MineralMan]

68. Mitnick served only about 5 years, and is now a

successful security consultant. I'm not sure what you're talking about, other than a stint in solitary.

[Romulus Quirinus]

87. It was a bit long for for a stint. :3 nt

[MineralMan]

88. That depends on your point of view, I guess.

I could do five years standing on my head, and would use that time to focus on thinking about things in a serious, uninterrupted way.

For others, I suppose it could be a horrible thing.

[Romulus Quirinus]

90. I honestly suspect that you would be in the minority.

I know it would be rough on me.

[MineralMan]

91. I often am. nt

[siligut]

75. Don't they have to use him as an example to discourage others?

A spectacle has to be made for it to work.

[JDPriestly]

32. Do you see a contradiction in Obama's encouragement of a discussion about this surveillance program

while at the same time trying to extradite the very person who started the discussion?

Was Obama insincere or dishonest when he encouraged the idea of a national discussion about the surveillance program?

How can he both encourage the discussion of the program and seek to try and punish the person who started it?

Please explain to me.

[stevenleser]

63. Perhaps an analogy will help

If hypothetically John Smith sells our technical plans for how to construct thermonuclear weapons to Iran, do you think its a contradiction if we decide we need to have a discussion about the need for nuclear weapons and at the same time we intend to prosecute John Smith?

I don't see a contradiction.

[JDPriestly]

67. We would not know about this program or be able to maybe, maybe take it to court without

Snowden's having come forward. This program should have been made public by the government from the get-go. The discussion should have taken place under the Bush administration.

[stevenleser]

69. We've known for at least seven years per this USA Today article

I realize that this assertion has been somewhat controversial here at DU, but this is not new.

http://yahoo.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls
Updated 5/11/2006 10:38 AM ET

By Leslie Cauley, USA TODAY
The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.
The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

"It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.

[stevenleser]

14. There's an antidote to running and getting asylum

LMAO

[arely staircase]

17. Didn't he have a Paula Deen problem of his own a while back?

nt

[stevenleser]

19. Yes, in 2007 if I recall. Show was halted for a couple of years I think. nt

[mitchtv]

76. he wouldn't last long in Bolivia

especialy in that outfit

[JI7]

15. are you comparing Snowden to Osama bin Laden ?

[arely staircase]

16. Well Venezuela has one of the, if not the, highest murder rate in the world

so, lots of local goons to contend with there. So I don't know. Doesn't seem like he thought this whole thing through very well.

[stevenleser]

18. As a city, Caracas is the murder capital with more than double of CapeTown at #2.

As a Country, the murder rate is higher than all countries in Africa other than Ivory Coast.

There are approximately 10 murders a day in Caracas and tons of violent crime of all sorts.

[arely staircase]

20. I wonder why.

That isn't a rhetorical question. It is genuinely puzzling. I know there is a lot of poverty there, but it isn't the world's poorest place.

[JI7]

24. but do they have luxury hotel type places ? i assume those type of p laces are safe

and that's probably where Snowden intends to stay with wikileaks or whoever picking up the bill.

[arely staircase]

28. Instead of Letters from the Birmingham Jail, he can write

Tweets from a Luxury Hotel. Chapters will include: Get Rid of Social Security and Shooting Leakers in the Balls, Reconsidered.

[VanillaRhapsody]

31. "Doesn't seem like he thought this whole thing through"

seems to be a major theme running through this story....

[Pretzel_Warrior]

26. where in the world would he be safe from "our goons"?

you do realize Obama has ninja skills.

[dkf]

27. Russia maybe. China. Someone we can't mess with who won't do our bidding.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

29. and yet neither wants to touch him with a ten foot pole

so........

[arely staircase]

30. I think he tried those.

They took his stolen intel then cut him loose.

[HooptieWagon]

33. You have evidence?

I see the meme tossed around on DU that he gave information to China axnd Russia. Strangely, no one ever provides a link to that evidence. Is there evidence, or is it just another RWish smear job?

[arely staircase]

50. gladly

Edward Snowden: Classified US data shows Hong Kong hacking targets

Top-secret US government records shown to Post by whistle-blower give details of computer IP addresses hacked by NSA in HK and mainland


http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-snowden-classified-us-data-shows-hong-kong-hacking-targets?page=all

[HooptieWagon]

72. A list of HK websites hacked by NSA hardly seems very damaging.

And it wasn't specified that list came from his laptops. It could have been hand-written or on a thumb-drive or CD. Shit, we all just assume the NSA is monitoring DU. Anyone on the intertubes is smart to do so. Would the govt go into a panic if it was revealed they were monitoring DU? Not likely. Therefore, it is logical to assume Snowden has some REALLY damaging information that hasn't been released yet. THAT is why Obama is in such a panic....unreleased information that would implicate him in illegal activity.

[Shivering Jemmy]

78. It absolutely is damaging

Those targets were hacked by the NSA because they are part of China's cyber warfare efforts, most of which are run out of proxy universities. China now knows which of their gangs we've penetrated. So they shut those groups down and pour resources into groups we haven't compromised.

[HooptieWagon]

79. You know those sites were cyberwarfare sites?

How do you know that? How do you know the sites weren't already aware they were hacked? Whole lot of speculation, which ties into the smear campaign, but an amazing lack of evidence.

[arely staircase]

80. that was not for mr. snowden to decide or assume

It was highly classified information that he chose to share with a foreign power.

[HooptieWagon]

81. Ok. So you don't know.

You don't know anything about what Snowden may or may not have revealed. Just that he made your hero look bad, and therefore must be smeared.

[arely staircase]

82. i know he revealed classified information to th chinese

He needs to stop running away and face what he did.

[HooptieWagon]

85. But you have no evidence.

You're only pissed because he exposed the Obama Administration as spying liars.

[arely staircase]

86. he really should face the music. if he isnt ashamed of his actions then needs to take ownership

of them.

[Shivering Jemmy]

83. I know why we hack universities in China.

And it's because their computer science depts are an integral part of the Chinese cyber warfare organ.


Google APT1 for more. Engaging on this further isn't productive.

[flamingdem]

40. He probably sold info so Putin wouldn't hand him to the yanks nt

[silvershadow]

42. And drones.

[backscatter712]

45. and the CIA... n/t

[JackintheGreen]

34. Pakistan is a libertarian paradise

He could just buy his safety on the unregulated free market!

[Lady Freedom Returns]

35. I don't want him safe! I want him in a JAIL CELL!

[MichaelMcGuire]

38. Why does there always need to be a element of human misery?

I'll give you this at least It's not asking for his death.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

41. Well he is being charged with Espionage.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/tech/u-s-government-charges-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-with-espionage-20130621

Depending on the number of counts for each charge in the complaint, Snowden faces a wide array of possible punishments. Under certain conditions, espionage convictions could result in the death penalty, though that's highly unlikely. The espionage charge, the last listed above, may not necessarily mean that the government believes Snowden was spying for another country (like China). The law states:

Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information ... concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government.

[MichaelMcGuire]

43. I'm in no doubt they are charging him with espionage.

Never came across a country that hasn't used domestic law to either legalize immoral actions and at the same time punish the individuals that has highlighted or brought back into focus these actions.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

44. Yes, he has done a great job at highlighting things...

for our enemies!

He is a traitor and deserves the full extent of that heinous crime!

[MichaelMcGuire]

46. "for our enemies!"

I agree don't let the size of Luxembourg fool you.































This may be needed

[Lady Freedom Returns]

47. Go ahead and make light of treason.

But I want that monster behind bars! And he will end up there. That is all he deserves. No hero worship, no respect. just life in jail!

[MichaelMcGuire]

48. "I want that monster behind bars! And he will end up there."

"Venezuela and Nicaragua offer Snowden asylum"

[Lady Freedom Returns]

49. Yeah, like that is really going to stop him from answering for his crimes.

There are still ways to make him pay.

[dkf]

71. Wow what an odd thing to say with your handle.

Weird.

[MichaelMcGuire]

36. You know its not the size of the country that counts

its what you do with it.

[KharmaTrain]

37. Will His "Exile" Be His Prison...

...if Snowden ends up in Nicauragua or Venezuela he enters places that will be very alien to him...different language and customs. He'll always be a foreigner and his "notoriety" could go from asset to liability with the change of government. He won't be able to travel many places, except under an alias...and he'll be watched by his new hosts. In essence wherever he's "exiled" he'll be confined and less and less of a "threat" by the day. Let him enjoy his long-term stay...it'll save us taxpayers the cost of a trial and any subsequent incarceration...

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

52. Beats torture in one of our hell holes anyday

[KharmaTrain]

53. Torture???

...ya mean they'd take away his wifi access?

If he's such a hero, then he should come back and you folks who so firmly believe he's the do-all, end-all should gladly help him raise money for a defense fund...find lawyers that will work pro-bono for his representation and if there are any abuses to report it far and wide.

Surely when he presents his case to a jury of 12 Americans they easily find him not guilty and really put the administration you so hate on a real difficult spot...he sure can't do that hiding in a basement in Managua or Caracas...

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

54. Yes, torture. And like I said, being free beats that EVERYDAY.

As long as he remains free, it means resistance is NOT futile, and it WILL inspire more Patriots with a conscience to follow his lead.

That is what I am rooting for.

I wouldn't want him to even think about coming back here until the SCOTUS declares it is not a crime to reveal a crime.

[KharmaTrain]

55. He's Hurting "Whisteblowers" By Running Away...

...and he become less and less relevant by the day. And with it so does your cause. Your hero Ellsberg stood trial...had a tremendous amount of public suppport that enabled his case to be widely reported and ended in exposing abuses of Johnson & Nixon's handling of Vietnam. Had he ran and avoided taking that stand those claims would never have been taken as seriously as they were. If Snowden has the good, bring 'em...prove 'em...the American people will respect and stand with him if and when he does so...including this one...

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

56. Disagree. He is only hurting the totalitarians by remaining free.

For it is his freedom that they can not tolerate as it serves as a beacon to others to follow.

[KharmaTrain]

57. In Six Months...

...when he's sitting in some basement in Caracas or Managua or wherever, he'll be ignored and forgotten. The "totalitarians" are fine with him creating his own prison...be it in the Moscow airport or wherever. If he wants to be that "beacon" he's be a far brighter light in an American courtroom using his Constitutionally guaranteed right to a trial by a jury of his peers to expose all the "crimes" he supposedly has witnessed. I see Bruce Fein is all set to defend him...he can't be your hero by hiding...a beacon in a basement doesn't shed light very far...

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

59. recent event's do not seem to bear out your take on this matter

And I somehow doubt that history will ignore the single most important leak in American history...

In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden’s release of NSA material – and that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago. Snowden’s whistleblowing gives us the possibility to roll back a key part of what has amounted to an “executive coup” against the US constitution. Daniel Ellsberg
http://www.ellsberg.net/

The 29-year-old source behind the biggest intelligence leak in the NSA's history explains his motives, his uncertain future and why he never intended on hiding in the shadows
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance

[KharmaTrain]

65. The Fun Of History...

...perspective changes from person to person and then gets distorted over time. Dr. Ellsberg faced a jury and was acquitted...he became a hero because his case and trial became a major news event of the time. Snowden could be the next "Ellsberg" by doing the same thing...presenting his case directly to the American people with the ability to discover and cross examine his accusers. The burden is on the government to prove he stole state secrets...he has the opening here to force their hand to show what secrets in a very public way...

Cheers...

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

66. is that there is at the least 2 sides

and with our recent history, he is much better off free... America has changed very dramatically since the 70's, and the cold war won.

SO much for that peace dividend, eh?

[stevenleser]

60. If the US is anywhere near as bad as you suggest, he's dead in 90 days or less. nt

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

62. possibly

and that would be even worse than what I said, but we have a history of extra-judicial killing as well.

[MH1]

58. True, and no one will ever trust him.

That's the beauty of it for anyone who doesn't care for the twerp. He burned every bridge and no one is going to build new ones for him. If they give him asylum it's for what they can get out of it, without any trust in him keeping any promises. Because his track record of keeping promises is rather bad.

[Glorfindel]

51. I can't bring myself to care

For good or ill, he made his own choices and decisions. He's a grown man. He should be prepared to suffer the consequences of his actions, whatever they are.

[stevenleser]

64. The short answer to your question is, if China, Russia, or the US want you dead and are

determined to go forward with a mission to do it, you aren't safe anywhere, and you will be dead in short order. The technology and resources those three countries have at their disposal are overwhelming and irresistible.

Snowden's life, ironically, depends on the US not being nearly as authoritarian and overreaching in the use of its intelligence agencies as he seems to want to suggest.

[gulliver]

70. Only really small, down-and-out countries will harbor fugitives...

...to begin with. Then only those whose fugitives we harbor. So I don't see how Snowden has much choice.

Do I think those places are going to be safe for Snowden? Nope. And I don't think our "goons" will have to do anything. We'll just offer a $450 reward, and Snowden's new-found countrymen will kidnap him and turn him over. It will be as an act of conscience similar to Snowden's, so I don't think he will have any room to complain if it happens.

[Cleita]

74. We harbor fugitives all the time including fallen dictators and others

who have become personas non grata in their respective countries. Are we small and down-and-out?

[Cleita]

73. He's probably always going to be in some danger and will

have to watch his back for quite awhile until, sometime in the future, all this is forgiven or forgotten. He will be a hell of lot safer anywhere else though than here in the USA or any of our territories.

[Rex]

84. Safe from whom?

nt.

[treestar]

89. Why is this person entitled to break our laws

and not face trial for it? He'd be safest doing that.

We do not have "goons" killing people in other countries rather than bringing them back for trial.