Waiter, there is a fly in my soup.

[silvershadow]

(pick your own favorite punch line, there are many).

Once was a time at DU and elsewhere when Democrats were gnashing teeth about the Patriot Act, FISA courts, etc. Heck, DU practically single-handedly funneled the outrage and angst that people felt about GWB and all his, shall we just call them antics? It was not only a welcome place to be, but it also elevated the discussion to the national stage, really. I honestly believe that. I was here in the first days, and all throughout.

While we Democrats didn't always win on the issues, we at least got our voices heard and in fact ridiculed relentlessly as the Faux noise machine kicked into high gear in support of the wars, the spending, etc. There was a time when this place was crawling with those who disagreed with the way things were going. Kucinich lovers. (He's maybe the only one who ended up voting against it). When GWB was pretzel-nut, it was palpable. We couldn't wait until he was replaced. Kerry campaigned on it. Obama campaigned on it. And DU was giddy at the prospects. We were gonna fix it. You just wait.

Now, here we are, 13 years on, and this place looks like it has been infiltrated by inter-lopers. I don't know how else to phrase it. I know there are some trolls and disruptors around regularly, and I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about those that still don't get that it's not about Snowden. It's about the Constitution and the rule of law. You and I would go to jail for stealing $50. They steal $50 Billion with impunity. You and I would go to jail for wiretapping our neighbors. They do it with impunity. You and I would go to jail for lying to Congress. Just another's day's work in Washington.

So, please forgive me if I take offense to some of the un-critical thinking that gets bandied about. You see, I haven't budged one millimeter in 13 years. I am still waiting for this patently unconstitutional construct that has been foisted upon us, by the same critters that foisted GWB on us, (under whose leadership virtually every disastrous change to America occurred), to be fixed. To so casually dismiss it on the pretense that Snowden committed crimes is preposterous. I am not dismissing Snowden's actions, either...if he committed crimes, he will eventually face the piper. But to focus on him is so distantly secondary to the real issue just boggles my mind.

The Patriot Act was supposed to sunset at least twice, but it remains, 13 years later. Ok, if it needed to be, fine. We got Bin Laden. Great. We needed to. But we didn't get him by building a gargantuan database that would make Hoover look like Helen Keller without fingers- by storing this massive database in perpetuity. I hate to say it, but I don't think the United States of America will ever get back to the way it was before GWB- not in my lifetime. There's a fly in my soup, and that's not the only bug I'm concerned with.

[emsimon33]

1. K&R

[sibelian]

2. Thankyou!

K+R

[NuclearDem]

3. I don't know what's happened to this place.

I guess some people think unthinkingly defending Obama will keep them safe from the surveillance state...

[woo me with science]

35. It's called propaganda,

and it's not just here at DU, but thick across the MSM and the internet. States that build surveillance infrastructures also build propaganda infrastructures.

Shaping public opinion and misrepresenting it are critical goals of states that turn authoritarian. The corporate state and its appendages have very deep pockets.

[silvershadow]

38. And then they talk about how "divided" we are instead of just saying "people are pissed". nt

[cantbeserious]

4. Thank You

eom

[SaveOurDemocracy]

5. Remember how we couldn't fathom that core base of Repug Dubya-lovers...

who refused to budge no-matter-what? It appears we Dems have our own version.

[winter is coming]

17. +1. There appear to be some DUers for whom everything is about Obama.

And I mean everything. Someone posted a toon last week, praising Wendy Davis, and one of the first replies was an exhortation for women to vote in 2014 to support Obama. Not a comment about the war on women, not a comment about Texas politics; his/her mind went straight to how Obama would be affected.

[Divernan]

32. Like using the San Francisco plane crash to mock Snowden? Disgusting/shameless

For god's sake - bodies are being pulled from flaming wreckage and these bots post anti-Snowden crap on the thread reporting on the tragic, fatal crash! I decided not to alert on these shameful posts, because I think it's important to see the mindset of people attacking Snowden, and that there is no limit on how low they will go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3185303

See post 15 from Randome: "They didn't compensate for the extra weight of Snowden hidden in the wheel well."
Responses to Randome, who at the time I post this, has refused to self-delete:

enlightenment (6,398 posts)
17. Charming.
You're a real hall of fame comedian.

Star Member winter is coming (1,533 posts)
29. Classy. n/t

usGovOwesUs3Trillion (1,225 posts)
32. What a creepy comment
Par for course

Star Member Aerows (15,199 posts)
46. Jesus Christ
People are dead and some are burned. Have a little respect.

Star Member Nye Bevan (11,480 posts)
52. Please self-delete, or do you want to always want to be the guy

who joked about the plane crash while bodies were still being dragged out of it?

Here it is for future Google searches: "randome joked about plane crash".

You self-delete and I will too.

A similar Snowden mocking post from FlamingDem, Post 26 was finally self deleted after provoking the following 4 responses:

Divernan (9,943 posts)
27. Your "sense of humor" is so tasteless.
Using a tragedy to lob sarcasm.

Star Member The Velveteen Ocelot (35,048 posts)
31. Sorry, not funny.


usGovOwesUs3Trillion (1,225 posts)
33. Another creepy comment
Birds of a feather

Star Member Starry Messenger (21,907 posts)
37. You know, that plane is just a few miles from my house.

[HardTimes99]

24. As bad as President Obama may seem from time to time, I hold this truth to be

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 05:29 PM - Edit history (1)

self-evident: the Republicans have been, are and ALWAYS, always will be far, far worse. (Sole exception might be the candidacy and presidency of Abraham Lincoln back in 1860-65.) By 'worse,' I mean that the Republicans now resemble fascists. And no one in the mainstream culture is using the 'F' word to describe them.

I live in deeply blue Los Angeles, CA (in Maxine Waters' district), so I suppose I live a sheltered life somewhat and can flirt with the notion of voting third-party with little possibility of thereby enabling a fascist. But if I lived in a border or swing state or district, I would be focused like a laser beam on defeating fascism, no matter what tactics it required.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

29. I never indicated Obama, or any Dem, isn't better than any/every Repug. It's the

ridiculously blind 'party-patriots' 'Obama-worshipers' who continually howl justifications for policies that are the antithesis of Dem ideals/values.

Rights we give up now will never be returned sans revolution.

[HardTimes99]

31. Yeah, I get you. It's really a shame that they howl those justifications, as their

ostensible audience for the howls hates Republicans with as much, or even more fervor, than they themselves do.

I think the best example of this currently is Obama's nomination of James Comey to head the FBI on Mueller's departure. I don't like seeing Republicans appointed to serve in Democratic administrations and have roundly criticized President Obama for this appointment. The Obama defenders howl justifications for Comey's appointment at me, but I know they hate the Republicans (of which Comey is one). So then I really have to ask just wtf is going on that a torture-enabling Republican hack like Comey gets defended by them.

I really don't get it. Are we just supposed to shut up and salute when Obama appoints members of the fascist party to serve in the government?

[SaveOurDemocracy]

34. Right there beside you.

[Laelth]

6. k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t

-Laelth

[felix_numinous]

7. It's gotten old.

It's one thing to disagree and present
another point of view, and quite another to show up with only insults, name calling and broken record talking points.

It feels to me like left baiting, as if disrupting focus on certain subjects is the bottom line. It's happened before with other 'taboo' subjects.

[silvershadow]

8. As to "showing up", I have been here since DU's inception.

As to "broken record talking points", I pity you, if that's how you feel. Read the 4th Amendment. Or, did 9/11 change that too?

[felix_numinous]

9. Hey I wasn't talking about you!!

--I was agreeing with your post, sorry it came off as counter to it...

[silvershadow]

11. Ok, sorry then. I apologize. Re-reading it, I guess I see that.

[felix_numinous]

16. I liked your post

I think it helps when we speak out about the difference between discussion, disagreement, and disruption.

The chronic disruption seems to have the desired effect of diverting conversation and creating doubt... and after awhile its hard to keep track of who is who.

[silvershadow]

20. I can't keep track anymore (not that I ever could). Too many differing views, as to be expected.

My OP was to poke a stick at the frogs in the pot of water, so to speak. It's near-impossible to avoid offending someone, even if you are correct in something you might say. That's why I don't worry too much about it. I don't want to offend anyone, but on the other hand, I don't really care that much about it if I do, either, if I feel they can benefit from what I present. I am but one citizen. My larger point is that if we, as Democrats, keep moving along with the goal posts, we will lose track of where we are on the field. I would say we have done plenty of forgetting over 13 years.

[mindwalker_i]

10. Are you sure there isn't some soup in your fly?

There's a big tendency to think about people who disagree as trolls. I'm definitely guilty of that - every time someone says Snowden needs to get his ass kicked for stealing from the government, "troll" crosses my mind. There are other issues too, but I think it's shortsighted to say everyone who disagrees with me is a troll.

[silvershadow]

13. Right. That's why I explained I am *not talking about trolls.

I was lamenting the two diverging paths folks on DU seem to be taking.

[mindwalker_i]

18. Fair enough

To some extent, it's good to see people arguing and not just agreeing. On the other hand, it does seem like people take sides and will not, under any circumstances, rethink their positions.

[JDPriestly]

43. A lot of people are quite sincere in criticizing Snowden. They really don't understand why

the surveillance is wrong. Many do not know history, do not understand law or the Constitution and have lived only in the US and hear mostly only US news.

That is the point of DU. I can learn things from them, and they can learn things from me. They have experience I don't have, and I have experience they don't have.

It depends on the subject. I have learned a lot here from teachers who criticize charter schools. I learn a lot about what it means to be in a union and what is going on with labor news. I also learn a lot about the views of people of different races than mine, from different parts of the country. We are all wrong some of the time. We are all right.

I note that a number of the DUers who think or thought the surveillance and the collection of metadata was OK have become rather silent. It may be because many of us who do not like the surveillance made points that they had not thought about. Now that we made those points, I hope that the supporters of surveillance are rethinking their opinions.

[L0oniX]

12. There's a bug on your monitor!

[silvershadow]

14. LOL. That there is!

[hfojvt]

15. except I know you are wrong

some other people have not budged that much either

not that I have not always been considered an interloper by some.

See, my primary issues are, and always were - the Bush tax cuts and income inequality and poverty and the environment and war. I could provide old journal links to back that up.

I never got all that fired up about civil rights and some of the anti-government paranoia that was in vogue on DU when Bush was President. Do you remember when a huge (or at least vocal) contingent on DU was sure that the invasion of Iran was imminent? I was skeptical. Do you remember when a large contingent on DU was all fired up because Bush had signed an executive order that allowed the Government to arrest anti-war demonstrators? I read the actual order and argued that those people were being silly and paranoid.

There are some on DU who like to pretend that there always was, or always should be, universal agreement on every issue and that those who dare to dissent from the majority opinion or the conventional wisdom are just interlopers who should be driven back to the "Stygian depths from which they were spawned" (I read that phrase somewhere, perhaps in a Conan comic book).

I will say it as plainly as I can - try to make your case and argue for your concerns without attacking the sincerity or progressive loyalty of those who would dare to see things differently than you do. You might not get as much applause from those who agree with you, but you might actually convince more of those who disagree with you.

And if you actually want to win, rather than just score points in a snark-off or pissing match, then you should be more concerned about actually changing minds.

[silvershadow]

19. How, exactly, does one do what you propose?

There are only two sides to the issue, unless you are a third-wayer. 13 years seems a long time to try to sway minds to understand. I would say the time has passed, which was largely the point of my OP. They win again. They continue to move the goal posts, we continue to acquiesce. On the Constitution there should be universal agreement.

[hfojvt]

21. I think there are always more than two sides to an issue - any issue

There's the patriot act and there are a number of modifications of the patriot act.

There's the Bush tax cuts, and 78% of the Bush tax cuts, which is what Obama proposed and 85% of the Bush tax cuts that Obama settled on, and declared to be a huge victory. There's 0% of the bush tax cuts, which I wanted, and there's 20% of the Bush tax cuts which I would consider to be an acceptable compromise.

If they have won something, what exactly have we lost, because I am not aware of losing anything in the last decade.

[JDPriestly]

44. I agree that these are important issues:

primary issues are, and always were - the Bush tax cuts and income inequality and poverty and the environment and war.

But civil rights and human rights in general are also huge issues for me.

I was born during WWII and grew up in the post-WWII years. Our generation was taught to value freedom.

I think that much of what Homeland Security does at the airports is exaggerated and really done to intimidate people as much as to protect people. I don't protest it. It is not physically uncomfortable for me, and I don't think it is important to make a fuss about it. But I question the value of much of it.

In fact, I suspect that some of the restrictions on liquids might be a ploy to increase the sales of the concessions in the airports. Why shouldn't I bring bottled water from home on the plane with me? Makes no sense if the bottle is sealed.

[hfojvt]

46. but they are not for me

so it is not accurate to accuse me of suddenly flip-flopping about civil rights just because the President now has a D by his name. Because I was not all that worked up about it when Bush was President.

I grew up in the 1970s, so for me, freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.

I thought it was kinda funny when I went to Europe in 2001 (in May, before 911) and they searched my bags when I got home. It was like "welcome back home, to the land of the free - we are searching your bags.'

I should have quoted my passport to them "The Secretary of State of the United States of America hereby requests of all whom it may concern to permit the citizen/national of the United States named herein to pass without delay or hindrance and in case of need to give all lawful aid and protection." The SOS is not without honor - except in his own country.

But what the heck, The blonde who did the searching was so good looking that I requested a strip search, but she took a pass, and it probably is odd to take a 10 day trip with just two carry-on bags.

When I went to protest a Bush visit to KC, it did not bother me that they set up a "free speech zone". I didn't care if Bush saw me. I wanted the people of Kansas City to see me, to see us. If we could have filled up that zone with 2,000 people, well THAT, would have been a protest. THAT would have sent a message. Instead it seemed like there were more people waiting in line to see the SOB, than there were protesting his visit.

That trip to Europe in 2001 was the only time I have flown in my 51 years, so the hoops that flyers have to jump through are far removed from my life. Poverty, on the other hand, is so close it is practically sitting on my lap. We all have our own priorities and perspectives.

[animato]

22. I think there are more than two sides to these issues

Du still is a great place to hear many opinions

[silvershadow]

23. Two sides to the Constitution? Really? nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

25. k&r

[hedgehog]

26. Where was all the sturm und drang when the Patriot Act was re-approved?

[silvershadow]

28. I wish I could speak to that. I can't. I can only hope people are awakening. nt

[PufPuf23]

27. Yeah. Wnat you typed. nt

[Scuba]

30. "... this place looks like it has been infiltrated by inter-lopers ..."

The whole damned Party has been infiltrated and taken over by the right. We have a twice-elected Democratic President who advocates cutting Social Security to pay for the follies of the wealthy at the same time those same wealthy folks are raking in dough and paying the lowest tax rate in decades.

[silvershadow]

33. Yep, and you should have seen how strongly I worded my texts about the theft of the Social Security

funds through what they term "chained CPI". I was livid about it, and I let my entire delegation know it, along with the White House, by email, snail mail, and phone calls. As far as your broader point, it has been going on since Clinton, a southern Democrat from Arkansas (read: liberal Republican), came into office. It is he who foisted NAFTA on us, which helped continue to break up the unions, and led to CAFA and everything AFTA. We haven't had a true Democrat since Jimmy Carter (an honorable man who coincidentally is still eligible to run for President since he only served one term).

Re: their follies with the money, I truly feel we are on the cusp of not being able to repair the damage. And I have been sounding the alarm for years now. Those who don't understand me call me hysterical at times. I brush it off as easily as a fly on my arm. I am awake. I am tuned in. I am a realist. What is going on, at this point, is nothing short of criminal. When we pay all the taxes and GE pays 0, that's wrong- especially if they are considered to be "a person". If that's the case we ALL should go to the Caymans, find that firm, and have them start doing our taxes. I can't imagine they would punish you. Not that I'm going to, I don't have a pot to piss in. They stole it all during the millennial years.

[LWolf]

36. +1

[KittyWampus]

37. I can't believe this many posters still don't get IT"S LEGAL UNTIL CONGRESS MAKES IT ILLEGAL.

And if you haven't budged… have you at least managed to do anything ANYTHING AT ALL on this issue in the last 13 years. Since it's so important to you. You must have written tons of letters and protested.

BTW, I think the NSA needs more oversight, way less money and staffed by Government workers.

[silvershadow]

39. Were you here during the time all this was enacted? If so, you can find it all right here on DU.

With the additional caveat, that I had a prior incarnation I was unable to retrieve my password for. Skinner had me make a new one, for whatever reason, so you won't find prior to 2004 here, but I wrote some damn fine material there as well.

[JDPriestly]

45. It violates the Constitution.

And Cenk pointed out in one of his videos that lawyers from two of the best law schools in the country have stated that it is NOT legal under any Act that Congress has passed.

Obtaining a pen register in a specific case is legal. But obtaining metadata and pen registers of millions of people without probable cause is NOT LEGAL.

[Brewinblue]

49. The NSA's actions are NOT legal under any statutory language in place!

The Administration has a secret interpretation of the law that they claim makes it legal, but no one, not even Congress, is privy to details of this twisted nonsense.

But none of that really matters one iota. The Administration's universal snooping, potentially into all communications and activity of its citizenry, are in absolute violation of the both the clear language and spirit of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. It must obviously come as a complete surprise to you, but the Constitution trumps any and all acts of Congress.

[AAO]

40. I'm still waiting for a few perp-walks.

[Douglas Carpenter]

41. knr

[Triana]

42. Well said...As you can tell, I've also been here since 2001 and I remember

...all the outrage (fully justified) here on DU when Drinky Dumbass shoved the "Patriot" Act through and when the surveillance machinery we're all balking about now was started and being built up.

I'm hardly surprised by anything Snowden / Greenwald has "revealed". No revelations there.

I don't care about those two men. At all.

I DO care that these GOD DAMNED policies of Bu$h's are retained and not only that, BUILT UPON such that they are even more egregious than they were when implemented and when we were all balking about them at that time.

Eye on the (eye)ball staring at us and into our underwear and everywhere else. Forget Snowden. HE isn't the problem.

[Brewinblue]

48. Outstanding OP!

I grew up during Nixon's presidency and the war in Vietnam. I vividly recall the bumper stickers of the era. Right-wing war apologists displayed stickers reading "America Love It or Leave It." In response, liberals who opposed the illegal war and the spying, corruption and police state thuggery of Nixon's administration adopted one that read, "America, Change It or Lose It."

As Yogi Berra famously put it: It's like Deja Vu all over again."

[whttevrr]

50. k & r

[MrSlayer]

51. Right, that ship has sailed. We're NEVER going back.

We need to get back to where we were before Reagan came in destroyed everything but it's never going to happen either. The country just gets further and further away from where we need to be everyday.

It's over, it's just over.