Argentinian sociologist Atilio Boron: United States orders to capture Snowden, wherever and however

[Catherina]

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:17 PM - Edit history (4)

Translation mine. If it offends you to read how someone close to the President of Argentina feels about the latest shenanigans, don't bother reading.

United States orders to capture Snowden, wherever and however

By Atilio A. Boron

The Austrian newspaper Die Presse reported that the U.S. ambassador in Austria was the one who made the false report that the former NSA analyst Edward Snowden was on board the plane of Bolivian President Evo Morales. In an article published in the July 3 issue of the newspaper, it states that shortly after Morales plane landed "the foreign ministry in Vienna received a phone call". The caller was from none other than the U.S. ambassador to Austria, William Eacho. According to Die Presse he "said Edward Snowden with great firmness that (he) was aboard the Bolivian plane." Eacho also made reference to "a diplomatic note requesting the extradition of Edward Snowden". This clears up any doubts about the enigmatic statements of José Manuel García-Margallo, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Spain, who had said that "the reactions of the European countries" to block the flight of Evo Morales came about because "they told us that (the information) was clear. " García-Margallo refused to reveal who had provided them the data. Now we know. [1]

...

This whole incident reveals several things: first, that it was the U.S. government behind this gross violation of the formal and informal rules of diplomacy that govern relations between nations , and second, that the secret services of the European countries demonstrated phenomenal incompetence, resulting in a serious incident with serious diplomatic and political consequences, due to the incredible incompetence of its intelligence services who "bought" the version, spread by the no less inept North American services.

They totally missed, for example, that Evo Morales' plane was never in the Moscow airport where Edward Snowden was "in transit" for a week. The Bolivian President departed from Vnukovo Airport, which is 43 miles away. How could he have moved (Snowden), without being noticed by one of the many services that have been saturating all entrances and exits of the Moscow airport? Third, European governments are puppets operated at will by the White House. Despite their bombastic statements and allusions to the highest humanistic principles produced by the European Enlightenment, these muscle-flexing and corrupt governments have provided repeated samples of a resounding inability to refuse to carry out any crime or offense ordered by the United States. A single example will suffice: they detained and sequestered the Bolivian presidential plane, which they had previously cleared for takeoff from Russia and then in mid-flight, they rescinded their permission, risking the lives of Evo Morales and his delegation but when it comes to providing logistical support for the numerous secret flights where the CIA renditioned people to countries where they could be tortured and killed with impunity and they needed to refuel at European airports to reach their destination, that (was no problem). Fourth and final point: this highlights the efforts that Washington is making to divert the focus of the discussion in the Snowden affair:the crime, according to Washington isn't massively spying on citizens and governments of friendly countries, or on news agencies like the Associated Press, or violating privacy rights, or violating the rules and laws that protect individual rights and freedoms. The crime is to reveal these crimes, publicize them, alert society that we are under an absolute power, irresponsible and immoral that calls itself democratic and respectful of the law but is exactly the opposite. This is what they can not forgive Edward Snowden, as well as Julian Assange or the soldier Bradley Manning, or Wikileaks- (their crime) is to have shown that those in the White House are hypocrites pretending to defend freedom while leading their country and the world, to a sinister new kind of totalitarianism. President Rafael Correa deserves universal recognition and gratitude for the asylum he gave Julian Assange in the Ecuadorian embassy in London for humanitarian reasons, as well President Nicolas Maduro who made the recent decision to do the same for Edward Snowden. Protecting these men who bravely dared to reveal the shameful secrets of imperialist power, is an honor to them and to their governments who took responsibility to protect them, knowing the costs involved in providing that noble service to humanity.

http://www.atilioboron.com.ar/2013/07/estados-unidos-ordena-capturar-snowden.html

[hr]
Additional information:

Related thread: White House Dares EU Leaders to Rat On United States in Morales Flyover Affair

US Requested that Vienna Extradite Snowden

03.07.2013 | 21:28 | HELMAR DUMBS UND CHRISTIAN ULTSCH (Die Presse)

Bolivian President Morales was forced to land in Vienna. NSA whistleblower Snowden was suspected to be on his jet. In a telephone conversation with the Foreign Office, the U.S. ambassador demanded they extradite him.

...

Here's the crucial section:

Sie landete gegen 23 Uhr. Kurz danach ging im Wiener Außenamt ein dringlicher Anruf ein. Am anderen Ende der Leitung: US-Botschafter William Eacho. Wie "Die Presse" erfuhr, behauptete er mit großer Bestimmtheit, dass Edward Snowden an Bord sei, der von den USA gesuchte Aufdecker jüngster Abhörskandale. Eacho habe auf eine diplomatische Note verwiesen, in der die USA die Auslieferung Snowdens verlangten.

Translated:

It landed about 11 pm. Shortly after that, the Vienna foreign department received a phone call. The caller was the US ambassador William Eacho. "Die Presse" learned that he claimed with strong firmness that Edward Snowden was onboard, the whistleblower of the recent surveillance scandals. Eacho referred to a diplomatic note requesting Snowden's extradition.


http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1426275/USA-verlangten-von-Wien-Snowdens-Auslieferung?_vl_backlink=/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1416110/index.do&direct=1416110

[Cleita]

1. This is getting more and more convoluted.

We are really looking bad. Also, it seems the blame belongs to the CIA for pushing this meme to begin with. It's too bad our government believed them without questioning where they got the source of information that Snowden was on the plane and the fact that they didn't even check to find out which airport Morales's plane was in, as it turns out another airport miles away.

Obama really should do some firing in the CIA if he can or at least try to get Congress to investigate them and their part in this whole imbroglio.

[Catherina]

3. Agreed. We are looking very bad

What I find inexcusable is that the Spaniards actually consulted with constitutional lawyers about searching the plane before Morales' plane had even taken off from Russia and their lawyers told them NO. But they went ahead anyway, even sending that little neocon ambassador with his pathetic offer to have some coffee together so he could get on the plane and check it. I am so proud of Morales for standing firm and telling him NO, I have my dignity and it's the dignity of all of Latin America.

I can't wait until Monday's State Department briefing but I'm sure it will be more of the same nothing we got on Wednesday before the 4th of July 4 day weekend.

[sabrina 1]

27. Many of Europe's 'leaders' now are have connections to Goldman Sachs/Wall St.

It's not the same Europe when both France and Germany refused to go along with Bush's lies about Iraq. Any dissenters have been removed from office and those now in power, or previously, Sarkozy eg, are merely puppets of Wall St.

these muscle-flexing and corrupt governments have provided repeated samples of a resounding inability to refuse to carry out any crime or offense ordered by the United States. A single example will suffice: they detained and sequestered the Bolivian presidential plane, which they had previously cleared for takeoff from Russia and then in mid-flight, they rescinded their permission, risking the lives of Evo Morales and his delegation but when it comes to providing logistical support for the numerous secret flights where the CIA renditioned people to countries where they could be tortured and killed with impunity and they needed to refuel at European airports to reach their destination, that (was no problem)

The last part is absolutely and shamefully true. Ireland, eg, was caught allowing a plane carrying a shackled detainee hidden on the plane, for rendition, discovered by a worker. There was outrage from the people, but these 'new' governments in Europe are not responsive to the people anymore.

Sweden's PM, eg, is a close friend of Karl Rove who helped get him elected behind the scenes, something the people of Sweden didn't find out until much later. He is known as 'Sweden's Ronald Reagan'. That should explain the role Sweden has played in the Julian Assange situation.

[Catherina]

123. And Spain's ambassador Alberto Carnero, who ran up the ramp, only to be stopped at the front door

with his ridiculous offer of sharing a cup of coffee, is a good little Bushbot.

Bush–Aznar memo

The Bush–Aznar memo is reportedly a documentation of a February 22, 2003 conversation in Crawford, Texas between US president George W. Bush, Prime Minister of Spain José María Aznar, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, Daniel Fried, Alberto Carnero, and Javier Rupérez, the Spanish ambassador to the U.S. British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi participated by telephone. Rupérez transcribed the meeting's details which El País, a Madrid daily newspaper, published on September 26, 2007.[1] The conversation focuses on the efforts of the US, UK, and Spain to get a second resolution passed by the United Nations Security Council. This "second resolution" would have followed Resolution 1441. Supporters of the resolution also referred to it as the "eighteenth resolution" in reference to the 17 UN resolutions that Iraq had failed to comply with.

The memo provided insight into the run-up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It revealed that Saddam Hussein had offered to step down and leave Iraq if he were allowed to keep $1 billion. Some have suggested that this indicates that the war was avoidable. According to the account in El País, the memo also gives details on how Bush tried to coerce members of the United Nations Security Council into supporting US policy: he tells Aznar how he can cut Angola's foreign aid from the Millennium Challenge Account and how he can torpedo the free trade agreement with Chile (awaiting ratification in the United States Senate at the time) if the two countries did not back US policy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush%E2%80%93Aznar_memo

(Video in Spanish, no subtitles, the quote below is at minute 5:15))

On July 4, President Evo Morales related how Ambassador Alberto Carnero tried to commandeer his plane to check whether the former U.S. agent Edward Snowden was on the flight.

When Morales's plane landed on Austrian soil emergency, "suddenly appears the Spanish Ambassador to Vienna, Austria (Alberto Carnero) with two individuals from the Embassy of Spain. The first (the ambassador) tells me that we need to check the presidential airplane. I replied: 'Why do you need to check?'. (He answers me) "I've been in constant contact with the vice Vice-Chancellor of Spain". I replied that 'I do not know this gentlemen, I heard on the news reports that he is American agent'.

I told him that 'we are very respectful of international conventions, international agreements. Therefore I am not transporting anyone to Bolivia' I replied to his insinuations that I was transporting Snowden. Then, when I said that, he replied "I will go ask my Vice-Chancellor". He gets up, and leaves his little office where we were at the airport in Vienna, Austria. He returned and said, "No, we have an agreement among "Foreign Ministers to check your airplane". I told him that 'his chancellor had never informed me of this'. I said: 'You can NOT check. If you do not believe me, you are telling me that President Evo is a liar'. I said that '(our) presidents do not lie, and you know, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors cosmic law is now constitutionalized: Ama Sua (do not steal), Ama Llulla (do not lie) and Ama Quella (do not be idle), I not going to lie to anyone.'

(Minute 7:45) The ambassador comes back from asking his Vice Chancellor, and repeats, "you have to invite us into your plane to have a cup of coffee, to have a little coffee so we can check". I said, 'You're treating me like a criminal, only criminals can be checked, and I'm no criminal. And you are not going to inspect the Presidential airplane'. I mean, brothers and sisters, in this time, for them to control us, for them to check our plane ... I could not understand the colonialist mentality'. 'We had no defense (resistance) whatsoever, it was just me and the pilots. If you want to check, you can do so but only by force, we can offer no resistance. It's clear, how could we resist a military or police operation, but the only way to do so is to do it by force. He got scared and did not dare to check by force and then told me he's going to call his Vice-Chancellor again. He came back and said "Would you speak with my Vice-Chancellor?". I said 'no I have nothing to discuss with the Vice-Chancellor. If you want, call your president (Mariano Rajoy) and not his Vice-Chancellor'. And then finally he tells me, after speaking with (his Vice-Chancellor) another time, he tells me at 9 in the morning, " I can't tell you yet if you can leave or not, because we need talk to our friends." Who are these friends of Spain? Well, they have the right to speak their friends but I asked 'who are these friends? Portugal? France? Italy?' He did not say anything. I wonder who these *friends* are. Then, at 9 and 30, or 10 in the morning, he returned and said to me, a little worried, scared and nervous 'You are free to go" and stopped insisting to check (the plane).

"If I had accepted the inspection, we would have been out of there in an hour or two after landing, but we would not give pleasure to Spain, even more so to the the United States, to inspect our plane so we could leave quickly. We have dignity, sovereignty and we are proud of our country, of the Patria Grande and we will never submit to these forms of blackmail sisters and brothers.

He then goes on to how President Rafael Correa told the US to take its preferential trade deal and stuff it (cheers). and how Latin America is on the rise while the US is on the decline. They don't need this he says. Then he mentions how the US had the nerve to deliver an extradition request for Edward Snowden after he landed in Bolivia. It's all to intimidate. "Our real sin is to have an indigenous President, and to be anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist. That's our sin sisters and brothers. They can't accept that we can govern better than the neoliberals. They can't understand that. What I understood is that they used their agents to intimidate us, to shut us up, to badger, to chastise Latin America and the Caribbean . They do not want this liberation of the people led by anti-capitalist presidents, governments, parties"

I can't go on lol. You get the idea. Besides, I just wanted to point out Alberto Carnero in response to you, then I got into the whole speech because it's the first time I listed to it but it took over an hour just to translate/transcribe less than half of his speech.

If our media was worth anything at all, that speech should already have been translated and published so we can understand what's going on in the world, and how the world reacts to our actions. Instead we get a vapid bubble.

I'm going to make this an OP too. Other DUers might like to hear a few more details of what happened that night. It's the same global 1% running things. This also explains why they dragged Bush and the Lord of Bats himself, Dick Darth Vader Cheney, out to defend this illegal surveillance.

[sabrina 1]

125. A wonderful speech as would be expected of Morales, far too intelligent to be

anyone's puppet which is what we miss in the 'United States of Latin America', we miss our old dictator friends to keep down the populations and hand over control of their resources.

He said it here, so correctly:

"Our real sin is to have an indigenous President, and to be anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist. That's our sin sisters and brothers. They can't accept that we can govern better than the neoliberals. They can't understand that. What I understood is that they used their agents to intimidate us, to shut us up, to badger, to chastise Latin America and the Caribbean . They do not want this liberation of the people led by anti-capitalist presidents, governments, parties"

I saw a breathless post here, intended to make us go 'OMG, he's a 'TRAITOR'! Lol, it provided the information that Morales had just made some trade deals with, are you ready to GASP?? ........ IRAN! Lol.

And the implication was that he was hiding this fact, or should. Lol, I had to point out the reality that Latin America has no problem with Iran as they are not US COLONIES!

I guess this is a talking point we will see but it's a stupid one, they need better propagandists.

As for the Bush Guy Ambassador, how come we don't have Democrats in this positions? Very interesting information, thank you.

[cantbeserious]

2. Careful - The Cheerleaders Do Not Tolerate Dissonance Well - Interrupts Their Cadence Or Something

eom

[Catherina]

4. Nothing like marching off a cliff because you're only looking up and *forward* n/t

[cantbeserious]

5. Ergo - The Apt Analogy With Sheep - Follow The Herd - Wherever That Might Lead

[flamingdem]

19. unwarranted nasty comment nt

[cantbeserious]

26. There Are Many Kinds Of Cheerleaders - It Is The Role Of Cheerleaders - To Support The Team

This often leads to cognitive dissonance when the team is clearly at fault. Hence the nature of the post.

The Pro USA first crowd and the Pro Obama is flawless crowd now have to reconcile that both the USA and Obama may not be so well liked in the rest of the world.

Internalizing facts that are counter to cultural programming is often unsettling.

[flamingdem]

28. Do you realize how simplistic you sound? Long term DUers are leaving due

to this kind of "cheerleaders" talk.

There's no conversation started with an attack like that.

This is not a left wing forum.

[cantbeserious]

32. By Definition Democrats Are Left Wing, Not Centrists, In The US Political System

eom

[Cleita]

38. "This is not a left wing forum."

You can't be serious. It most definitely is and has been since it's inception. No one walks in lock step here, hence we tolerate centrist and even some rightest views, but to claim it's not left wing is not the truth.

[cantbeserious]

39. Thank You For Adding That Feedback

eom

[flamingdem]

46. How about - this is not a conspiracy forum - the OP cites die presse a small

religous newspaper.

No one else is carrying this information.

Please tell me you see the problem here

[Cleita]

48. Oh, you don't get around much. There's been a lot more around the global internet than

Die Presse on this subject that backs up much of what they have reported. Pay attention.

[flamingdem]

53. Post a link that attests to this, I've been searching a lot!

I'd appreciate it

[Cleita]

55. Try to google. It's all over the place. You do your own homework because

you started this. I have already posted and replied to posts that have all this information. It's there. Go look!

[Blue_In_AK]

63. Long-term DUers have been leaving here

(and have been TSed) for exactly the opposite reason for years. Turnabout's fair play?

[cantbeserious]

66. It Is A Paradox - Some Leave Because DU Is Too Liberal, Or Too Centrist, Or Too Conservative

eom

[Blue_In_AK]

70. Indeed.

We are Democrats, after all.

[flamingdem]

74. People leave when the balance tilts to nasty as it is now

I don't need to come here and get attacked for being a Democrat.

We know we represent a far greater group than those who leave nasty unwarranted comments, but those people are here in abundance now and relentless.

Thus, a democrat like still one quits. I can't blame them. Who wants to be attacked by those who don't even bother to converse just snark

[Blue_In_AK]

76. It's really not any worse than it's ever been.

Try being an Obama doubter in October 2008, for instance. It was brutal. The pendulum swings both ways.

[flamingdem]

80. When I think of election time it can be brutal

You're right in that general sense.

But this latest round is very creepy. Just because someone here is obsessed with the nsa issue they think it's open season

Many are fake accounts I think, I've received so many nasty comments, and seen them, they simply cannot be real.

[Blue_In_AK]

93. Thank you for not saying

that mine was an unwarranted nasty comment.


(I kid, I kid...)

[flamingdem]

95. he he I'm still on a rampage but slowing down

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

89. The less totalitarians

The better!

[flamingdem]

90. unwarranted nasty comment nt

[Pab Sungenis]

130. And therein lies the fundamental problem with our party.

Our party IS a left wing party. It has been since 1932. An argument can be made that it has been since 1928!

If a Democratic forum is "not a left wing" forum then we have a major problem. It means that our party has moved so far to the right as to be unrecognizable.

[SwampG8r]

51. i agree

[flamingdem]

21. unwarranted nasty comment nt

[SwampG8r]

52. agree again

[Pab Sungenis]

128. Completely warranted.

People who are easily offended should be more often.

We are not lockstep people like the Tea Party. Our party is a coalition. People who want to make it into a cult of personality deserve to be called out for that.

[KittyWampus]

6. Hilarious, I should count how many Snowden posts you throw up. Cause the claim is it's the

stasi-loving Authoritarian Fascists who post so much about him.

[morningfog]

9. There is a difference in posting about his resume/pole-dancing girlfriend and

posting on what the US government is doing to try and get him. One is about the person, the other about policy. Hope that helps!

[xiamiam]

10. the other difference is that she posts actual information instead of hairbrained maps ..nt

[flamingdem]

17. unwarranted nasty comment nt

[SwampG8r]

54. this one is based on truth

I saw the post and come on, you know that was funny stuff
I understand it was a simple error but with the way it was presented in the OP it was friggin hilarious!
hell im laughing as I type it was so silly funny

[flamingdem]

57. I vaguely remember it

and think I had the urge to send a nice comment asking for correction!

sadly, I missed the funny part, I just remember something like yeah we got him? oop!

[SwampG8r]

62. the actual map

was in the body of the story but the one that was in the OP was a Moscow road map
its actually a funny thread when the graphics came into it
sometimes things happen I guess

[cali]

13. not even close to a tenth as many as ONE on your side of the debate has posted

over 125 Snowden threads started by ONE person. you know, the one with all the little linky links.

[flamingdem]

18. unwarranted nasty comment nt

[another_liberal]

36. Give it a rest.

You're making yourself look just a little silly, not to mention blindly partisan.

[flamingdem]

37. unwarranted nasty comment

Why are you motivated to call me blindly partisan.

What is that except a swipe at me when I directed nothing at you

[another_liberal]

42. Then comment in a meaningful way, or stay out of it.

Don't just label every post you disagree with as an, "unwarranted nasty comment."

[flamingdem]

44. If you bothered to look I have several comments on this

thread nt

[another_liberal]

49. And you have quite a few pointless, one line cheap shots as well.

Stick to writing your comments.

[flamingdem]

71. You're persisting in you nasty short unwarranted comments

and taking no responsibility that I didn't engage you to start.

You are clearly part of the problem I'm illustrating with my comments

Worst thing is, you know it and it is intentional

[SwampG8r]

67. the post she is responding to

is also nasty and unwarranted
as I said I see what you are trying but it wont work if equal standards are not used

[cali]

78. not one iota nastier than the one I responded too

but of course YOU don't have a problem with that one.

gad.

[Mojorabbit]

92. I am curious why you hit all these threads

if you are not interested in reading what is in them. There are a lot of them here. If a certain poster posts things you do not want to read then don't click! Read another thread made by someone you want to talk with. That is what I do depending on who is posting the thread. It keeps my Blood Pressure in check.
Peace, Mojo

[Number23]

114. And Prosense actually engages with posters in her threads

Doesn't endlessly post OP after OP knowing she won't be able to see 90% of the responses.

She uses real sources and gives her detractors back everything they shoot at her which proves to me that she is confident in her beliefs and believes what she says. She gets mad respect from me even though I don't read that many of her threads because this topic has become way too overwrought and idiotic around here for my tastes.

[malaise]

7. It's nice to see South America waking upo again

Good read

[Catherina]

8. Thanks Malaise. It's so important to understand how others view our actions

if we want to get along in this world with something other than *might makes right* and massive surveillance.

[truebluegreen]

14. Yes, there are "green shoots"

in many parts of South America and one of the themes is distrust of American motives and plans for the region. Given the history, who can blame them?

[Cleita]

45. They shouldn't trust our motives at all.

First thing that I have to distinguish is between our government and the companies that operate in the region. The for profit companies take advantage of everything, access, lack of regulations and many other things that they can get away with to make money. They are the bad players here. Our government doesn't do those things. Where our government is at fault is that they back up the interests of the American companies without questioning the harm they do and nowadays many global companies with a thin veneer of being American are operating there and they are using our government to protect their interests as if they are Americans.

I can't say it enough. The Monroe Doctrine has to be scrapped as our policy in the Americas. It's been used and abused by private interests for almost two centuries. Now whatever this international spy thing is, that is also being outsourced to private companies, it's being protected by this policy.

[malaise]

118. I have to disagree

The US government speaks for those said companies.
That is the 'national interest'. The entire anger at Chavez was because he was taxing gas companies so that there was revenue for healthcare, education and other important developmental policies. Ecuador was left with nasty pollution from said oil companies. I haven't even touched Argentina and Chile.
South America has never been treated as another continent with sovereign states - just the backyard to be exploited. There is history here. Open Veins of Latin America by Eduardo Galeano is a must read book.

[Cleita]

119. Actually, we are in agreement so what are you disagreeing with?

I lived in Chile, while my dad worked for one of those American companies. I have seen it first hand. However, I have never seen our government invade with troops or do their activities openly with a few exceptions like the Spanish/American war and Grenada and Cuba. It's always done covertly with money or blackmail through the diplomatic corp with the intent of protecting those companies interests even when it hurts the people of those countries like Chavez taxing the exploiting of his resources for the people or like Chile nationalizing the mines which was one of the reasons for the USA backed the coup that overthrew Allende. Other countries exploit SA too, not as much as we do, but it's always through their diplomatic corp. We have a more direct approach in Asia and the Middle East where we do land armies to get our way.

[truebluegreen]

120. I couldn't agree more.

America's military and clandestine services have been used by big corporations for decades to protect their operations and profits in many (all?) foreign lands, not just Latin America. And in this region, our "backyard", it has been centuries.

There was a grain of truth to the claim that they were protecting "our" interests--albeit with no concern for the local peoples or morality--when they were still "American" companies but that hasn't been true for many years.

With so long a history of colonization and with so much disregard, so many slights--especially this last one!--the area finally seems to be pulling together and pulling away. I believe that is a good thing.

[Cleita]

121. We've done it because we use the Monroe Doctrine to justify it.

It's time to send that document to the scrap heap. Our State Department needs to craft a whole new foreign policy where we don't exploit nations for American companies' interests. That's probably going to require taking down how we allow corporations to operate both domestically and on foreign soil. They are exploiting us domestically as badly as well. We are being ruled, not governed, but ruled by large corporations particularly the banks and Wall Street and they use our government and military to do this. It's a big order, but it's got to be done, especially now that we are in danger of being boiled off the planet with corporate caused pollution.

[truebluegreen]

122. I agree, we are being colonized by our "own" corporations

but of course they are not ours, whatever their names.

It is a tall order to rein them in and I don't know if we can do it at all, but I am sure we can't do it alone. I think we need a worldwide labor/environmental uprising and the more resistance to US policies from every direction, the better. We need the Empire to crumble, or reinvent itself. The Brits managed to do that, giving up their empire to remain a democracy (which later elected Maggie Thatcher, go figure ) but they obviously lost much of their influence in the process. I fear that our influence is so tainted by our past actions that our leadership role can't be salvaged, even if we manage to pull ourselves together. I don't know where new leadership will come from, but maybe it will be South America.

As long as it isn't Brazilian soccer fans, it will be an improvement.

[Cleita]

131. Again they took the teeth out of the unions with Taft/Hartley.

We need to convince our pols that it should be revoked. Yes, I would like to see a worldwide labor/environmental uprising.

[Kurovski]

116. +1

[flamingdem]

11. I don't see where it is proven that Ambassador Eacho said Snowden was on board

If you google there is no news source other than Die Presse claiming this.

It sounds like a miscommunication. Eacho was in charge of notifying EU countries about Snowden and getting them the note about extradiction - the US asking European countries to extradite Snowden based on mutual treaties.

My speculation is that this was a communication problem between Eacho and the Spaniard. Even if Eacho threw out a comment like: "Snowden may even be on board" that is not the same claim, it's an opinion.

Until some other news source or press conference reveals more that's all there is for now.

Happy to read further sources on this but die presse and this comunique aren't solid. Die presse is a local religious newspaper according to a DUer here who knows it.

[reorg]

101. please refrain from posting false information

1. "Die Presse" is neither a "local" nor a "religious" newspaper. It is the leading supraregional quality newspaper in Austria and has a liberal bent (liberal in the traditional sense, it is neither "leftist" nor "neo-liberal&quot .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Presse


2. Die Presse reported

"It (the plane) landed about 11 pm. Shortly thereafter, the Foreign Ministry in Vienna received an urgent call. At the other end of the line: US Ambassador William Eacho. "Die Presse" learned that he claimed with great certainty that Edward Snowden was onboard, ... Eacho also made reference to a diplomatic note by the US requesting Snowden's extradition."

(Sie landete gegen 23 Uhr. Kurz danach ging im Wiener Außenamt ein dringlicher Anruf ein. Am anderen Ende der Leitung: US-Botschafter William Eacho. Wie "Die Presse" erfuhr, behauptete er mit großer Bestimmtheit, dass Edward Snowden an Bord sei, der von den USA gesuchte Aufdecker jüngster Abhörskandale. Eacho habe auf eine diplomatische Note verwiesen, in der die USA die Auslieferung Snowdens verlangten.)

http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1426275/USA-verlangten-von-Wien-Snowdens-Auslieferung?direct=1416110&_vl_backlink=/home/panorama/welt/1427309/index.do&selChannel=103


The ambassador's call was confirmed by Austria's news agency Austria Presse Agentur (APA):

"The ministry confirmed on request by APA that Eacho had called, but that no pressure had been applied."

(Im Außenamt wurde am Mittwochabend auf Anfrage der APA bestätigt, dass es einen Anruf Eachos gegeben habe. Druck sei aber dabei keiner ausgeübt worden.)

http://www.apa.at/site/News/Topnews_4/Snowden-Verdacht_zwang_Morales_zu_Landung_in_Wien;.cms1


which was reported in several other Austrian newspapers, such as:

http://www.wienerzeitung.at/dossiers/datenschutz/559142_Morales-kam-landete-ungewollt-und-ist-nun-wieder-weg.html
http://wirtschaftsblatt.at/home/nachrichten/international/1425921/Evo-Morales-in-Wien-ein-Eklat-der-Superklasse


First, this is not about a "Spaniard". Spain and Austria are different countries. It is about Ambassador Eacho's call to the Foreign Ministry of Austria.

Second, this is hardly "miscommunication". Why does Eacho call the Foreign Ministry at such a late hour? Shortly after Morales, by strange coincident, just happens to land at the airport nearby?

Even if he "only" called to notify the Foreign Minister about the extradition request and didn't say anything else, contrary to what "Die Presse"'s sources say, the implication is obvious.

[flamingdem]

102. "The ministry confirmed on request by APA that Eacho had called, but that no pressure had been appl

Well that line says it all. It's vague but it certainly doesn't confirm a "get him" type statement or anything more than "please be informed that we have a diplomatic note regarding extradition" which is more likely considering all countries received that same communication at that time.

Someone here at DU said that the paper is not considered to be that serious.

Why do you think their story hasn't been picked up?

Thanks for the links

[reorg]

104. the ministry confirmed the call

therefore your doubts are unfounded.

The article in Die Presse never claimed that "pressure had been applied", the claim is that the US ambassador said that Snowden was on the plane.

Why on earth would he call the Foreign Minister at 11 pm when, believe it or not, most working people are usually asleep? Just out of the blue, to notify the authorities of an extradition request? The entire episode only makes sense if the US ambassador along with several others actually believed that Snowden was on the plane.

The story has been picked up, I linked to several other papers. Austria's news agency APA picked it up and even got confirmation from the ministry when they requested it.

As to what someone or other "at DU" might have said about Die Presse is of no relevance to me, and is demonstrably false. Die Presse is actually the most "serious" newspaper in Austria.

[stevenleser]

12. If such an order exists, Snowden is finished. It will be easy to capture him in Venezuela.

Re: "United States orders to capture Snowden, wherever and however"

If this is correct, we can expect to see Snowden dead or captured and brought back to the US soon.

[flamingdem]

15. Yes he is. I doubt there is any way they thought Snowden was on the plane

It's not that easy to leave that heavily guarded hotel without being noticed.

Don't people think he's got a tail or two on him, LOL

[flamingdem]

22. unwarranted nasty comment nt

[Pab Sungenis]

129. Is that all you're going to say to everyone who you disagree with?

[stevenleser]

23. Of course its easier to attack me than address the obvious flaw in logic I pointed out. nt

[zeeland]

31. A dead Snowden would further complicate the situation for the U.S.

Whatever information he has yet to release more than likely
has multiple sources prepared to release it if he is dead or disappeared.
I seriously doubt it would be anyone as obvious as Greenwald.

[sabrina 1]

35. Are you saying that the US will invade a sovereign nation to get someone who has been

granted asylum in that nation? Surely you know that is not possible, it is illegal. The Brits were on the verge of making a similar error in judgement when they considered invading the Ecuadoran Embassy to get Assange. Do you realize what the ramifications of such a move would be? All treaties regarding diplomatic immunity would instantly become null and void and OUR OWN DIPLOMATS would be in danger. Which is why the Brits were forced to back off that insane idea.

Only rogue governments violate International Diplomatic agreements among nations.
Once a political refugee receives asylum from a sovereign nation, that is that.

WE agreed to these rules and to violate them would negate any claims we have in the future to grant asylum to anyone. China, eg, would immediately demand the return of their political refugees and could easily come here and kidnap them at that point.

Amazing how little people seem to know, or is it care, about the structures of law, the treaties signed, the agreements between nations on matters such as this and the reasons why countries agree to them in the first place.

IF Snowden manages to get to any sovereign nation that grants him asylum the US better just accept that they cannot touch him there. As China, angry though they may be, cannot touch their political refugees granted asylum here.

[stevenleser]

41. If the person cited in the OP is correct, there are a myriad of things that could be done.

1. They could hire an outside group to kill him. Venezuela is notorious for their gang activity. Many of the ten killings per day that happen in Caracas are gang related. For the right price, I am sure they could be pointed toward Snowden.

2. They could hire an outside group to kidnap him for them. Again, I am sure Venezuela's gangs would be more than happy to help for a fee.

3. Existing intelligence assets in Venezuela could kill or kidnap him

again, This Alito Boron has asserted "United States orders to capture Snowden, wherever and however". If that is correct, then within 90 days, this will come to pass.

My point is that I do not think this is correct. I think Mr. Boron doesn't know what he is talking about.

[sabrina 1]

50. Are you aware of how notorious OUR gangs are?

And you better hope that any of your scenarios do not come to pass because IF he should die, not a single person in the world will have any doubts as to who is responsible. Let's hope this President is way, way smarter than some of his most ardent supporters.

Our murders and coups and support for genocidal maniacs such as Pinnochet are notorious in Latin America.

Our 'graduates' from the infamous and notorious School of the Americas are well known for their crimes against humanity in that region of the world.

It is SHAMEFUL to even think such a thing, considering our shameful history in Latin America.

And I would refrain from mentioning 'Venezuela's gangs' to anyone outside the Faux News audience. You will be met with reminders of US Death Squads and our own Extremely Notorious Gangs right here in the US.



And who said he is going to Venezuela, several countries have offered him asylum, Nicaragua being one, understandably, speaking of 'notorious gangs', OUR cohorts who carried out unspeakable crimes against the people of that country.

Yes, I'm sure the propaganda machine will try to blame 'Latin American Gangs' or whatever if Snowden is murdered, but no sentient human being is going to believe it. The US will be blamed and the ramifications would be horrendous, especially for this administration.

Eg, no one doubts that the US/Bush administration was backing the coup against Chavez in 2002. NO ONE.

For the sake of THIS country, let's hope no rogue element in our government, such as Cheney's secret operatives, does such a thing because it will be Obama who gets the blame. This administration should be hoping beyond hope that nothing happens to Snowden in any country that grants him asylum.

[stevenleser]

86. None of that is relevant. I'm responding to the OP's citation. The person quoted said in fact that

"United States orders to capture Snowden, wherever and however"

Whether or not gangs exist in the US is not relevant. The first thing at issue is whether we think that the person quoted in the OP is right about that. Do you think an order is issued to "capture Snowden, wherever and however?"

If you don't, and quite frankly I don't, then the OP has posted information from someone who is non-credible.

If you do think that order is correct, then the situations I outlined come into play.

[flamingdem]

97. Thanks for articulating this. You write like a reporter

and it looks like we have to do that here to get points across.

There is no proof the USA was behind Evogate. Die Presse is a small religious news source.

I guess you saw my theory that Ambassador Eacho was relaying information about the extradition notice and that this is what may have been misconstrued as a Snowden is on the plane action.

Having dealt with a lot of multilingual communication, I am sure that a misunderstanding is possible.

No doubt our Ambassador, being American, is more likely to speak English. The Spanish diplomat is having to parse his words with whatever level of English he has - and this can easily lead to problems.

[sabrina 1]

105. We know that the US has tried to pressure other nations not to grant him asylum.

Joe Biden called Correa I believe to ask him not to so. And we know they have pressured their European allies. What that shows is they want to get him before he gets to another country where he will have asylum. Because they KNOW they cannot get him once he has obtained asylum.

As of now, yes, they will try to get him anywhere he is not protected by asylum. The fact they have not done so in Russia shows that they cannot without risking huge ramifications. But I'm sure they are pressuring the government there also.

I would hope they would never be foolish enough to risk the ramifications of violating International agreements on Asylum because they would be so damaging it is hard to predict the results.

One thing for sure, China could use some of OUR gangs to get their political refugees here and we could not say a word about it. It would become a free for all. Every country could use the gangs in every other country to get their fugitives.

It is a ridiculous idea and the only reason I can think of why it might happen is that someone wants to damage this administration badly. And/or this country.

[reorg]

106. you don't seem to get the point of the person cited in the OP

The headline is just a characterization of what actually already has happened. That the US want to capture Snowden "whereever, however" was demonstrated through its:

"gross violation of the formal and informal rules of diplomacy that govern relations between nations".

Nowhere in the cited article can I find any indication that the author believes, like you apparently do, that the US government would be willing to act like the Mafia and put out a contract to murder Snowden. Is that what "existing intelligence assets in Venezuela" do, IYO?

[stevenleser]

109. You just issued two contradictory and mutually exclusive statements.

On the one hand, you agreed with the author who says "capture whoever and however" and suggest that whatever transpired with the Morales flight demonstrates this

and on the other, you dispute the idea that "the US gov't would act like the mafia" I assume by "act like the mafia" you mean kill or kidnap.

My contention is very plain. If the author is right, then Snowden cannot hope to be left alone in exile. He will be captured or killed in short order.

[reorg]

111. Your contention is plain

Whereas the author speaks of treaty violations that already happened, you have fantasies about murder.

Why do you contend that whenever the US engages in unlawful acts it must always end up in murder?

[stevenleser]

112. No, I didn't. I gave several possible scenarios. You have tunnel vision for the murder/killing. nt

[reorg]

113. Your "possible" scenarios were all about contract killings

whereas the author speaks of treaty violations in order to accomplish the arrest of someone.

I thinks it is clear who has the "tunnel vision".

[stevenleser]

115. No, they were not. I talked about kidnapping as well. nt

[SwampG8r]

56. how does that make you feel?

that he might be killed soon
how does that make you feel?

[flamingdem]

65. have we found our DU therapist in you?

it would be great if every post was commented on by a DU therapist

exactly how does this subject remind you of your mother?

how are you feeling, right now, inside.. go with that feeling, feel your feelings

[SwampG8r]

72. no therapist i

I am seriously curious
I see more and more "snowden gonna die" threads this week and I am curious
are you happy at the idea?(not you per se but the poster)do you get a tingle ?because if you do its sad and its wrong

[flamingdem]

75. I think it would be horrible if he was killed, or abducted, the USA was not trying

to do that.

That whole idea is crazy.

[SwampG8r]

79. yes crazy

crazy people would be the only ones to enjoy suchwhat

[flamingdem]

81. It's okay with me if he gets asylum

or if he goes on trial.

But what I hope he ceases to do is damage the United States and its international relations

[SwampG8r]

82. well there is this

he has been out of the intel loop for what now 3 weeks or so?
every second out of the loop ages whatever he does have and eventually it has no value at all as it is no longer operative

[flamingdem]

83. He supposedly released info about US spying in Brazil today

It was in Portuguese so I didn't really want to deal with the translation.

Even if it was US propaganda I was bothered by the Vanity Fair report - the Beijing University that the US has hacked into is a center for disarmament, the US was trying to get info on disarmament talks.

If one distrusts Obama, or the Pentagon, it's "whatever" but if that's not the case it's what a shame that we can't know information that would allow for a safer world bya better negotiation.

mileage may vary, but not all intelligence is destructive to our civil liberties

[SwampG8r]

103. i understand where you are coming from

its not good to see our dirty laundry paraded around
no one likes it or more accurately most don't like it
we have serious problems and I also don't like a bunch of outsiders chiming in
but we did the things they are crying about so we really don't get a pass
if we don't like being called out for things we shouldn't do them

in my life I live 2 miles south of an active AF base and have mostly lived here all my life excluding the short passages of madness when I would convince myself everywhere wasn't the same place as anywhere else and try another locale
my dad was a launch director for pan am services in the 60s and my wifes dad was a launch director for rca at the same time
security and intelligence were common factors in my everyday life growing up. what we did mattered and people were watching.
all done by nasa security fbi sometimes the dia and cia dea you list the letters I have dealt with them since childhood
at no time did I ever feel like I was dealing with a bunch of cant get it right jaggoffs.i always felt I was dealing with serious highly trained investigative professional agents of our government.
always respectful of the constitution....ok guys
i never have until recently felt the us intel community has lost that respect for the constitution i see them for the necessity they are
but would prefer my data be sifted by an actual sworn government agent instead of the civilian equivalent of the TSA

[struggle4progress]

16. Marxist Libertarianism! Finally, a political philosophy for the most deeply confused!

[flamingdem]

24. It's a bit challenging to pull off but apparently it can be done!

I'm going to google it to see if there's a website forum for "Marxist Libertarianism"

[whistler162]

25. So have you gotten your check

from the Nigerians yet?

[flamingdem]

29. Inane comment that doesn't add to the conversation

Can you say something a bit more profound?

[SwampG8r]

59. now i am going to congratulate you

well done

[flamingdem]

60. why thank you very much

It's always nice to have support when one goes on a rampage

[SwampG8r]

64. we weigh in on different sides here a lot

but I see what you are trying to do here and I approve

[flamingdem]

68. I feel bad that still one is leaving!

Before I really got to know him/her

It might start an avalanche. We need to admit that we can get hurt, or tired out, by negative comments, even if it's "just a forum".

[SwampG8r]

77. i dont have context for this

have a link so I can catch up?
running people out of here is a sport for a lot of us here again sadly
its like ignore
I never use it but I see a group that feels ignoring members will make it better so they "plonk" away
I enjoy reading a wide range of threads on all sides of each issue
heres a secret for you....most everyone on here is a democrat and we come in all sizes and shapes and philosophies from way outer left to way outer right
so how does ignoring the other democrats on here make things better? if I don't engage I may as well be commenting at yahoo news
I feel sorry for democrats who choose to ignore rather than debate

[flamingdem]

85. Here's the link about a longtime DUer leaving DU due to nasty unwarranted comments

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3185536

[SwampG8r]

110. well that was a mess

thread jacking and name calling
very sad

[SwampG8r]

132. sorry it took so long

I wanted to read it all before responding and then I was called away
I agree its sad when people we have grown used to leave du
I had about a 2 year lurking period myself
I just didn't want to engage at the level deemed acceptable
i see a lot of ugly in that thread but it would be hard for anyone to claim any "side" had a patent on it
from what i see it looks like every monkey in it has a hand full of poo and a good windup

[avebury]

30. Snowden is a distraction from the main issue.

Our government attempted to get other countries to violate Bolivian sovereign property which is totally outrageous. How do think that we would have reacted if another country (or countries) attempted to do the same thing with Air Force One? We have made it abundantly clear that the US has become our planet's biggest bully. We not only condone torture but we are not even concerned with diplomatic and international laws anymore. We have no right to ever even attempt to claim the moral high road anymore.

It does not matter what you think of Snowden our government's actions are not acceptable. This makes Obama look just as bad as Bush Jr.

[flamingdem]

33. The jury is still out about whether/if the USA had a role

The source for this Original Post is a small online newspaper.

No one else is making this claim.

Stick to the facts and you'll be free, from bullshit that is

[sabrina 1]

40. You have a point regarding waiting for more information on who was behind

the claim. However, it has to have been someone who had authority as several European nations cooperated in diverting the plane of a President of a Sovereign nation. That would not happen unless the source had some authority. No country would take such a step based on a rumor from some unknown source.

[flamingdem]

43. Was there cooperation? It looks like miscommunication

Portugal is clear because it turns out they were having political strikes and didn't want Evo to land.

France has a statement about how they didn't know it was him, thought there were 2 planes, the plane was not in the correct time window for them to accept. Who knows.

Spain allowed refueling in Las Palmas, but this was not accepted the first time not sure why. They also received an extradictio request and this is where the miscommunication might have happened.

Italy I don't think I've read about them

Austria knew nothing about the plane and thus went through protocol of passport check and brief check of the plane. Remember it was not a Bolivian plane, it was a rented plane

So many areas of confusion. I think we'll eventually know what happened. In the meantime it's not a good idea to follow die presse, in my opinion

[sabrina 1]

61. Too many countries all having a problem with the Presidential plane of Evo Morales.

One could be understood, but there is no doubt that all of these countries, most now run by neocons and Wall St puppets, knew who was on that plane.

To believe all those excuses we would have to believe that five different countries suddenly became so incompetent as to not know a Presidential plane was flying through their air space when we know that such planes identify themselves as they have certain privileges, immunity being the main one. Portugal's excuse is the most ridiculous of all. Europe is always having political strikes, how would Morales' plane have anything to do with that? And despite the frequency of political strikes, not once has this happened before.

When was the last time this happened to any plane flying over Europe, with even a despot from some small dictatorship somewhere? They would not even done this, and didn't, to Gaddafi.

Sorry, the only question is whether the report that it was the US Ambassador to Austria is true, or whether it was someone else. Or who alerted the US Ambassador? But there is no doubt anywhere that this was no accident.

[flamingdem]

87. If you want to believe misinformation be my guest nt

[Mojorabbit]

94. Our state dept says they were in touch during the incident but denied

they had anything to do with it.

[flamingdem]

96. Logic dictates they didn't or wouldn't have risked having to walk that back

I just don't see any proof that's solid at all.

Apparently the Spanish diplomat will have some kind of hearing, it should come out there if at all.

[Mojorabbit]

98. Logic for me dictates

that if he was in real time contact he prob had something to do with the events.
Time will tell.

[flamingdem]

100. I see the compelling timing, but it could have been due to the US trying to get out ahead of

countries like Venezuela and Bolivia saying they'd give asylum.

They were in Moscow, someone figured out there was the chance of direct flights.

So it could be connected but I do not believe they'd risk international reputation.

They know the laws. I think it was incompetence, not a small part due to Bolivian intransigence.
They refused to refile their flight plan when Portugal told them they had to, with 24 hour notice.

Then they tried to fly there anyway.

It was a rented plane, not a Bolivian plane, that lead to misunderstanding too. It was French.

I see lots of room for snafus

[Catherina]

58. ^^This^^. ^^This^^. Thank you n/t

[idwiyo]

34. k&r

[Waiting For Everyman]

47. K&R Thanks, Catherina!

I have to agree with what he wrote there. Our government is making some very big mistakes right now.

[mitchtv]

69. the Argentino is right

South Americans are all too aware on Northamerica's machinations

[flamingdem]

84. There is no proof of what the Argentine says other than "Die Presse"

Still the only paper saying Ambassador Eacho was the source of a statement that led to Evogate

However there is a lot of documented information about how there were miscommunications between Portugal and the Bolivians, Spain and the Bolivians.

In the end any denial of airspace was about that and not anything the Ambassador said

What he was doing seems to be only the extradiction request that went to all relevant countries.

But this probably falls on dead ears on this thread

[Catherina]

88. Very big, unfortunate and unnecessary mistakes.

Burying our heads in the sand and pretending the whole world is wrong except the US MIC and the international 1% isn't going to do anyone any favors.

[flamingdem]

91. Catherina do you really believe the Ambassador Eacho story from Die Presse?

Can you allow for the fact that it might not be true since no other paper has reported this?

Also have you seen the comunique from the Portuguese government?
Their explanation for what happened, why they couldn't refuel and how the Bolivians
were stubborn and wouldn't refile another flight plan?

There are so many holes in the Die Presse story and this Original Post from Argentina that it would be ethical of you to at least note that fact.

[Enthusiast]

127. Plus one.

You are exactly right.

[MotherPetrie]

73. K&R

[Mojorabbit]

99. Thank you Catherina for all the work you are doing

to keep us informed. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

[davidpdx]

107. I've been pointing this one out for days, but alas no one seemed to

understand that it would have been physically impossible for Snowden to get on Morales' plane. People were too busy screaming to think logically.

How could he have moved (Snowden), without being noticed by one of the many services that have been saturating all entrances and exits of the Moscow airport?

[Octafish]

108. Wherever and However

The government of the United States will go to any lengths, including acting as fascists or plain gangsters, to get Snowden.

The information the guy released probably isn't even the worst of it. The take dealing with blackmailing the Pentagon, Congress, the Executive and the Courts must be dynamite. Certainly explains the DC Madam's demise.

[Judi Lynn]

117. Looked around the internetS for info. on "Die Presse" which should discredit

the story on William Eacho. I'm not seeing it. The fact the corporate media didn't also run the story probably means it IS true! Our corporate media has gone to a lot of trouble keeping us in the dark about the machinations of our own government throughout our lifetimes.

If this story follows the same pattern, ordinary US citizens might find out something about this in 20 years or more, after they release the declassified documents through the Freedom of Information Act, if they haven't destroyed that, yet.
[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
Wiki:

Die Presse is an Austrian daily newspaper based in Vienna. It was founded in 1946 by World War II resistance fighter Ernst Molden and stands in tradition of the Viennese newspapers "Die Presse" (1848–1896) (founded by August Zang) and "Neue Freie Presse" (1864–1938; founded by Max Friedländer). The paper covers general news topics. It is frequently quoted in international media concerning news from Austria. It is the leading Austrian daily newspaper, though not the largest, with around 260,000 readers.[1] Since March 15, 2009, it has also been operating a weekly newspaper under the name "Die Presse am Sonntag".[2]

The "Presse" had been struggling for financial survival for a long time, until during the 1960s, the Austrian Chamber of Commerce became the main shareholder. Since 1999, it has been owned by the Styria Medien AG, a conservative-liberal media group founded by the Catholic Church.[dubious – discuss]

The political position of the "Die Presse" can be described as classical liberal, with a strong emphasis on free-market economy and small government, traditionally opposing Austria's grand coalition and its neocorporatist tendencies. It therefore stands in contrast to other Austrian newspapers of quality including the more conservative Wiener Zeitung and the leftist Der Standard. Emphasis is put on the 1848 revolution as the beginning of its tradition as a liberal newspaper, citing it in its slogan "Free since 1848".

In 2009, reports claimed that the "Presse"'s long-time editor, Otto Schulmeister, had been working for the CIA in the 1960s and 1970s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Presse

That one is odd enough, isn't it? Hmmmm.

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
Encyclopedia Britannica:

Die Presse, ( German: “The Press”) newspaper published in Vienna, Austria’s leading daily (though far from its largest) and one of Europe’s outstanding journals.

was founded in 1848 during one of the Austro-Hungarian Empire’s intermittent periods of freedom of the press. It emphasized quality, balanced reporting, and commentary from the start. In 1864 most of its editors and staff left the paper to establish another under the name of Neue Freie Presse, dedicated to the same kind of excellent writing and thorough news coverage. The new paper quickly gained recognition and influence.

Neue Freie Presse was merged into a Nazi-propaganda publication in 1939, but after World War II it was reestablished as the independent Die Presse and resumed its longtime emphasis on solid national and world news coverage, perceptive editorial and cultural commentary, economic and financial news, and features, often using contributions by noted authorities. The modern Die Presse takes a liberal view of some issues and a conservative view of others. It is an active supporter of freedom of the press.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/475363/Die-Presse

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]

Die Presse is one of Austria's oldest established newspapers. It began as a moderately conservative newspaper in the revolution year of 1848, sided with the opposition after the crushing of the revolution, was banned, re-launched and finally became what it is today: the paper of choice of Austria's educated class and civil servants. In 2004 the layout was changed. In recent times Die Presse has distanced itself from the People's Party ÖVP and opened itself up to a green readership, but it still maintains its Catholic orientation. The owner Styria Medien AG launched a Sunday edition, the Presse am Sonntag, in 2009.

Medium: daily
Political orientation: Liberal conservative
Circulation: 77,000 (2010)
Frequency of publication Monday to Saturday, with own Sunday paper

Location: Vienna, Austria
Publisher: Styria Medien AG
Area of distribution: Nationwide
Established: 1848

http://www.eurotopics.net/en/home/medienindex/media_articles/?frommedia=717

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]

DIE PRESSE while not specifically a financial paper, is nevertheless Austria's leading upmarket, quality newspaper with a high businessmen readership, and good quality financial editorial. Independent of political parties, it supports liberal-conservative values. It brings wide-ranging coverage of areas such as politics, culture, business, sports, and society. It aims for a responsible attitude to issues such as democracy, the rights of the individual, private ownership, basic human rights, but most importantly the right to report, criticize and analyse all news and events that happen daily, without censure of any kind.

Publishing HouseDIE PRESSE VERLAGS-GESELLSCHAFT M.B.H.
LanguageGerman
CityWIEN
Type of MediaNational/regional newspapers
Editorial Content1-Newspapers - News/Gen.int
Geographic CoverageNational/Semi-national
PublishedDaily

http://www.publicitas.com/home/media-solutions/media-search/media-factsheet-detail/?PARAM1=FW1PW1#.Udk8M-oo7_Q

[center]

William Eacho[/center]
Thank you, Catherine, for this helpful thread.

[Savannahmann]

124. I still don't get it.

If he's a lying little punk with a pole dancer for a girlfriend, why all the extraordinary effort to get him?

[Catherina]

126. He's a debauched lecher who led a young girl astray to pole-dancing?

Maybe they're offended about pole-dancing?