Blowback from the White House's Vindictive War on Whistleblowers

[99th_Monkey]

Blowback from the White House's Vindictive War on Whistleblowers
Edward Snowden is explicit: seeing whistleblowers like me punitively treated only motivates citizens of conscience more
Saturday, July 6, 2013 * The Guardian * by Shamai Leibowitz

In 2009, I was working as a contract linguist for the FBI when I discovered that the FBI was committing what I believed to be illegal acts. After I revealed these to a blogger, the Department of Justice came after me with a vengeance.

When the FBI confronted me, I admitted what I had done. I tried to negotiate for a reasonable resolution of my case. The documents I disclosed were never explicitly published anywhere, but that didn't matter: the DOJ was adamant that I be charged under the Espionage Act and spend time in jail. Even though I leaked the material because I thought the FBI was doing something illegal, and the American people had a right to know, I faced the threat of dozens of years in prison. I did what was best for my family, and signed a plea agreeing to a 20-month sentence.

Considering Edward Snowden's revelations, what I witnessed pales in comparison. But reading about the secretive NSA programs collecting the private data of millions of Americans did not surprise me. As Snowden explained, he watched for years as the military-industrial-intelligence complex turned our country into a massive surveillance state, and observed a "continuing litany of lies" from senior officials to Congress. Eventually, he decided to speak out, because he could not in good conscience remain silent.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/07/06-1

[truedelphi]

1. What a sad moment in America's history. Our first African American President might be

More remembered for this NSA scandal, than for the destruction of the environment under the fracking policies, and the destruction of the "Rule of Law' under the Holder/Obama provision that says the law only applies to the 99%. (Too Big To Fail equals Too Big To Jail.)

The police have been militarized; the Freedom of speech and assembly are in serious disarray; our "Free Press' is more and more mere stenographers groomed to rival movie stars in appearance, but more vacuous than Kim Kardashian when they open their mouths. (A FCC with some bite might have cleaned this up; but what politician would have the nerve to go there!)

State's rights are stomped on also - we have no money to help the states keep teachers or other civil servants employed, but plenty of money to send in the DEA and DOJ even when voters have demanded that marijuana users be left alone. (Over sixty Calif. pot clubs have been dismantled by the Feds in just the last few weeks.) And our food is now under the assault of GM pollen, that will make it harder and harder for Americans to avoid the vomitoxin-contaminated shit that festers on our grocery shelves. meanwhile, as the full meaning of the Paulson/Geithner/Bernanke policies come to light, forty nine cents out of every dollar of profit generated goes off to Obama's friends in Big Financial firms. (that is up from eight cents back in the Carter and Reagan eras.)

On the bright side, maybe all this will finally force a reform of the corrupt element of the Party.

[Civilization2]

10. sad but true summary,.

"My government spent one trillion $$s on their drug war: All I got was this lousy police state!" - lov this!

[bvar22]

11. ...BUT he was "historic".

[font size=5]Obama's Army for “CHANGE”, Jan. 21, 2009[/font]

[font size=5]"Oh, What could have been."[/font]




You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS,[/font]
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[truebluegreen]

14. The problem is, the biggest single positive accomplishment by this President

may turn to be getting elected in the first place.

Oh, what could have been.

[vdogg]

88. Lets be fair

That is far from his biggest single accomplishment. I'd say ending the Iraq war, DADT, and the defeat of Doma should take that spot. I'd put the killing of Osama up there too. You may not like the man but lets at least be honest about what he has done.

[truebluegreen]

90. Maybe.

But, being fair, Obama wished to keep (more) troops in Iraq longer, but the SOFA negotiated under Bush didn't permit it, and Iraq wouldn't renegotiate. Neither the repeal of DADT nor the defeat of DOMA were his actions alone, although I do appreciate that he signed the first and his Justice Dept. didn't defend the the latter (good thing the idiots in the House did, or the case might have been tossed for lack of standing).

I was talking about his accomplishments, his initiatives, things only he could do or has done. And I'll stand by my statement.

[vdogg]

112. So you honestly think

That the DADT repeal would've been initiated under President Romney or McCain? You really think DOMA would've reached the level it did with a Republican President? You seem to be going out of your way to deny the President any credit for anything. I don't like domestic spying either. Hell, I don't even like decisions that he's made with regards to the space program. I can still acknowledge his successes though. I think this is where people like me get turned off with this forum. It seems that folks are intent on giving him all of the blame for the bad stuff and none of the credit for the good. It's almost visceral the level of distaste you see for this man around here.

[truebluegreen]

117. Do you honestly think

bills originate in the White House? A lot went on for years before it landed on President Obama's desk and it was certainly not one of his priorities. But I acknowledged that he signed it, didn't I?

And what are you talking about re: DOMA "reaching the level that it did"? The case has been winding it's way through the court system for several years, and the President has nothing to say about that or about whether the Supreme Court accepts it. Absolutely nothing! I am grateful, though, that he / the administration acted with alacrity to apply the ruling once it was handed down. Kudos for that.

Are we better off than we would be under McLame or rMoney? Of course! But that is a low bar.

For my own personal "visceral level of distaste" (or whatever), it started with Larry Summers and Tim Geithner, and to a lesser degree Eric Holder.

But that didn't stop me from campaigning and voting for President Obama again in 2012.

Sorry if this turns you off.

[Amonester]

100. Be honest? Wow, what a concept. /sarcasm

They don't want to be honest. It's all or nothing.

I've just came across a post that advocates hitting 'stupid people who disagree' on the side of the head to Wake them up.

I so hope they will enjoy the impeachment process their foolishness will probably result in, and the oRangeman/tuRtleman Regime the repukes will install.

Oh yeah, they will fix everything to their liking!

[Egalitarian Thug]

36. That's what makes it so especially bad.

He could've been a contender. We voted for a champion for change but got a bankster.

[andthesheepgoesbleet]

52. We are going to have to look closer and deeper at those we support at the National Level

now just becase they say the are a Democratic Party member does not mean they really support the party planks beyond lip service.

Fool me once.......

[Veilex]

84. Ironically, its the whistle blowers that are bringing the magnifying glass to bear...

The Government should embrace Whistle blowers not criminalize them... whistle blowers help to keep our government honest when it has trouble keeping itself honest.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

83. Those people thought they were behind a Liberal....

The Republicans claimed Obama was a foreign born Socialist terrorist.

But the Democrats couldn't get behind a REAL Liberal because the Republicans would have attacked him and he wouldn't have won the election in a landslide. Right?

[Life Long Dem]

122. Thanks for the memories

Back then we were entering into another Great Depression. Thanks to Obama that never happened, and things have been improving.

[byeya]

12. + + + Articulate and true.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

21. Rec n/t

[geek tragedy]

28. Except for that Obamacare and pulling the economy out of Bush's ditch thing.

The NSA is a HUGE scandal in the eyes of about 10% of the population, and half of that 10% worship Ron Paul.

[Egalitarian Thug]

38. Both of which place corporations far ahead of voters, and neither of which

accomplish their stated purposes.

[geek tragedy]

42. That is the view of the same 10% fringe obsessed with the NSA story.

It is rejected by the vast majority of liberals and Democrats.

[Egalitarian Thug]

44. Just keep telling yourself that. That way, someone will believe it. n/t

[geek tragedy]

45. Still bitter that your crowd's collaboration with the Tea Party to kill the ACA failed? nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

50. Oh my...

Do you have an encore?

[geek tragedy]

57. No, just observing that on the major legislative accomplishments

of Obama's term in office, the leftwing Teabaggers and the rightwing Teabaggers tend to unite in opposition.

This is because neither group has an interest in actual governance, only in complaining about people who are stuck with the job of governing.

[Egalitarian Thug]

61. Oh, that's a shame.

Maybe you should put together a little dance number? Hire a good looking woman to take the audience's attention away from you.

Hey, can you carry a tune, do magic tricks?

[geek tragedy]

63. Your fellow travelers are telling me that the US health care system

was better under Bush (effectively arguing for repeal just like Michelle Bachmann is).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3198554

That's plenty entertaining. Because, of course, no one takes you folks seriously. Not Obama, not Congressional Democrats, not unions, not Republicans, no one.

[truth2power]

87. "fellow travelers".. That's so 1950's.

Red-baiting, I see.

[geek tragedy]

99. What else do you call people so far around the left bend that they're holding

hands with Michelle Bachmann on health care?

[truth2power]

114. It's guilt by association. A disinformation tactic...

Throwing in the name of someone who's held in contempt by progressives is sure to hook the weak-minded, but those who are used to thinking for themselves just laugh and roll their eyes.

[geek tragedy]

115. If you agree with Michelle Bachmann and disagree with Bernie Sanders on the single most

consequential social welfare legislation passed in the last 30 years, you're probably not a sane liberal.

[truth2power]

118. You're all over the place, Geek...

The OP of this thread was about Obama's vindictive war on whistleblowers and how it motivates citizens of conscience to speak out

With your assistance, it has wandered from DOMA to ACA to the economy and whether it's better or worse under Obama, to whether or not he's a corporatist. Coincidentally, I'm sure, the subject of Obama's war on whistleblowers is being lost in the shuffle.

You've asserted that it's only a 10% fringe of liberals/Dems who are "obsessed" with the NSA story. That's simply not empirically true. In some ways, DUers do not accurately reflect the thinking of Liberals across the spectrum. If one reads other Progressive sites on the internet, one will find general outrage over NSA surveillance, and Obama's treatment of Edward Snowden, frequently expressed.

Those trying to raise the alarm include Nick Turse (Assoc. editor of TomDispatch), Charles Pierce, Chris Hedges, Bernie Sanders, Daniel Ellsberg, Ray McGovern, John Pilger, Robt. Scheer, Valerie and Joe Wilson, Ted Rall, Chris Floyd, Rude Pundit, and Cenk Uygur, among others.

Many of the above individuals are linked on DU but are sometimes ridiculed as being out of the mainstream. Yet if you look in the comments section of their articles, there's more agreement than not.

Furthermore, what's the purpose of associating DUers who disagree with you with individuals we all despise, i.e., Louie Gohmert, Michele Bachman, Tea Baggers, other than to herd the more fearful among us into some sort of groupthink?

Even Bernie Sanders has found himself on the same page with Rand Paul on the NSA issue. See:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/bernie-sanders-orwellian-future_n_3419173.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

"...Sanders is not the alone among his colleagues in being outraged. Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky). said on Sunday..." So, I guess Sen. Sanders should just sit down and shut up because Rand Paul is angry, too?

Why not let your argument against NSA/Snowden stand on its own merits? Just asking...

[geek tragedy]

119. The OP tried to reduce the Obama presidency to the NSA issue and treat

everything else as irrelevant in comparison.

Sorry, but that's obsession. The vast majority of people--even those who believe the NSA program must be overhauled or scrapped--do not view the Obama administration solely through that lens.

Those that view Obama as nothing more than the Surveillance President are single-issue obsessors.

[truth2power]

120. No he didn't, Geek. First of all, I think we both agree that the OP wasn't written

by 99th monkey. He was simply linking to an article written by Shamai Leibowitz, a former whistleblower who served a prison term for leaking classified information.

Mr. Leibowitz's narrative describes his rather unfortunate experience with the US Government subsequent to his disclosure of the information.

The controling idea of his article is that the "fuming anger" of the US Govt. and their "desire to demonize and imprison people at all costs" is simply going to result in the opposite of what they intend. It's going to motivate even more whistleblowers to come forward.

Whatever Pres. Obama's record of successes or failures, it's not germane to this article.

[geek tragedy]

121. Slight mistake--the post to which I replied did the reducing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3193529

[truth2power]

123. No problem. I've noticed that the graphic that precedes the actual body of a thread

sometimes doesn't seem to trace back to the appropriate poster. Maybe it's just me.

[geek tragedy]

124. This was simple error in my part.

[RC]

77. Grouping everyone that does not agree with you as Tea-baggers? Really?

Oh, my, kinda black and white in your thinking opinion there, ain't cha? Mixing, muddying and mislabeling groups in an effort to demonize everyone that disagrees with you.

Define leftwing Teabagger: Let's see here... Leftwing Teabagger: Someone on DU that presents logical facts, backed by links, showing the major corruption of our government, by their wholesale hoovering and storing of ALL of our electronic communications, in violation of the 4th and other Amendments to and of the Constitution.

How'd I do?

[geek tragedy]

78. Your definition is self-contradictory

since it has not been shown that the government is hoovering and storing all electronic communications.

But, to the extent that your defiinition posits someone who believes without skeptisicm rumors and speculation and narcissistically concludes that they're the only rational one in the room, it is accurate.

[RC]

81. Cognitive dissonance much?

Or is it just Intellectual dishonesty?

[geek tragedy]

95. Thank you for proving my point.

Those who dispute the tenets of the One True Faith cannot do so honestly. Moreover, the One True Faith is beyond discussions of facts and evidence.

[RC]

103. You do seem to know about that.

[truedelphi]

105. Good summary of the thinking of those who

Would support nothing done by Bush, yet they consider the same damn things when done by Mr Obama to be fine and dandy.

[ohheckyeah]

108. " people who are stuck with the job of governing."

Do you know how the poor things can get unstuck from governing? DON'T RUN FOR OFFICE.

Unbelievable.

[geek tragedy]

110. Someone always gets stuck with it.

And whoever has that job faces realities that talk radio hosts and bloggers do not have to face.

[ohheckyeah]

111. Poor things....

stuck with a job they spent millions to get.

If they can't take the heat they should stay out of the kitchen.

[geek tragedy]

113. It's not a matter of personal misfortune.

It's a matter of it's a lot easier to pass legislation in one's imagination as Internet ranters do rather than in real life.

[lark]

91. Saddest of all....

She/he who has eyes, but will not open them to see. This is surprising given the article on NC where everyone who was arrested for protesting their hard right wing turn had all their personal info. posted online in very short time. No one is stating that Obama wasn't much better than the alternatives, and that he did no good. We are saying he's a corporatist and has given the security guys free reign to trample our rights. I happen to think both of these are bad things, but maybe to you that isn't important?

[geek tragedy]

94. It would help to be factual instead of hyperbolic

We are saying he's a corporatist and has given the security guys free reign to trample our rights.

"free reign to trample our rights" is not policy discussion--it's ranting.

It's also false.

[lark]

106. Does anyone truly know the extent to which privacy has been invaded?

Per Sherrod Brown who is on the Intelligence Committee, no, we do not know anywhere near how bad it is. We do know that Verizon is saving every text, that the post office copies all envelopes, every phone # dialed is recorded and saved, calls outside the US are recorded. I was ranting, true, but based on policy and moral values. Sorry you think that the government recording all this information at random on all Americans is OK, I don't - and that's the facts.

[geek tragedy]

109. All of that stuff would be recorded without any government spy program.

The only issue is the extent to which law enforcement and intelligence agents get access to it.

[saidsimplesimon]

92. Egalitarian Thug "their stated purposes"? I read a book some time

ago titled "Moscow Rules". Nothing is what it seems to be and no one is who they say they are. It saddens me that the winds have carried me from idealistic to cynic.

[Egalitarian Thug]

97. We're far from alone in that.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

[NCTraveler]

46. Fundamentally, the economy is the same as it was under Bush. nt

[geek tragedy]

51. Sorry the facts don't agree with your need to whine

[NCTraveler]

58. Your childish snark aside...

You are saying that the economy is fundamentally different. You are saying that legislation has been put in place where too big to fail is no longer a part of our economy. Dodd Frank clearly fell way short. We are now in a place where five or six banks/financial institutions can falter and the economy will still be secure without being bailed out? BS

You can say the numbers are better, not much better, but better. What you can't say is that the economy has fundamentally changed. The limited protections that have been put in place do not help protect the citizens from economic disaster. They have actually further entrenched too big to fail.

So show me where the economy has fundamentally changed in a way to protect us from what happened in the end of the shrubs term. Deliver all the snark you want, what you can't do is show where there has been true and meaningful change to the structure of the economy.

To add, not very impressive figure in the chart.

[geek tragedy]

60. I'm saying it's no longer in a death spiral threatening to suck us into a severe depression.

The economy is too massive and complex to change on a fundamental level with legislation within one decade. This isn't rebuilding a car engine.

[NCTraveler]

67. I fully agree with this.

"I'm saying it's no longer in a death spiral threatening to suck us into a severe depression."

But it has nothing to do with the fundamental change I was talking about. I see how what I wrote was vague. I understand that. I completely disagree that fundamental change cannot happen in one decade. The start of the change needed to happen during his first term. The crisis needed to be used to start the change. People are not willing to back change when they think things are well. Even if it is a feeling not based in reality. The thing is, under this administration, there hasn't even been a move toward fundamental change. Of course it won't happen in a decade when you are not willing to address it.

[geek tragedy]

70. The biggest economic threat is/was dependence on big carbon.

Obama's stimulus did promote clean/renewable energy with some vigor.

It's never the crisis we expect or that we've lived through in the past that's the greatest threat.

[sabrina 1]

48. If you're talking about the HC Bill with no PO, that funneled Medicaid funds into

the hands of Private Corporations and saved from extinction where they were headed after the crashed the economy, thanks for the reminder. Another gift to the 1%.

[geek tragedy]

56. Heh, another 'progressive' who preferred the economy and health care system

under George W Bush.

[leftstreet]

59. The healthcare system WAS better under Bush

There was no MANDATE to purchase for-profit insurance premiums and no PENALTY for not doing so

[geek tragedy]

62. An idiotic argument to support an idiotic conclusion--sadly common around here.

I will say that no progressive with a triple-digit IQ thinks that the health care system was better under Bush.

[leftstreet]

66. Glad to hear I'm in the majority

sadly common around here

[geek tragedy]

68. No, you people who support Michelle Bachmann's efforts to repeal Obamacare

are not a majority here, or anywhere, thank god. Just a loud and obnoxious minority.

[leftstreet]

69. But, Obama has already 'repealed' parts of Obamacare

The employer mandate has been kicked down the road

LOL one of the elements his Administration claimed was key to its viability

[geek tragedy]

71. Are you gonna donate to Louie Gohmert now that your primary anti-Obamacare

champion in the House is retiring?

[leftstreet]

72. All R Donations R Belong to Insurers!

[geek tragedy]

73. But, you're on the Republicans' side on health care.

They favor repealing Obamacare, and you favor repealing Obamacare.

Why not donate to the people who share your policy agenda?

[RC]

80. I favor replacing Obama care with Single Payer, Universal Health Care.

You know similar to what the rest of the world has? There is no good reason for health insurance companies to even exist in the first place. They are nothing but parasitic middlemen sucking the health out of this country. They decide on cost alone whether to cover anyone medical expenses. Your money or your health life. That has not really changed under Obama Care.

Those were health insurance lobbyist at the table. Members of the public were jailed for objecting to not being heard.
But what we have now is Obama Care, birthed in the Heritage Foundation, fine tuned in Massachusetts under Romney, given a new cover sheet, with a colored picture, so we would not recognize it.

[geek tragedy]

98. I would favor a changeover to single payer myself.

I am not 218 House members and 60 Senators, and neither are you.

[leftstreet]

85. No, Obama is

The GOP floated for-profit mandatory insurance premiums for decades

It took lining the pockets of Democratic politicians to make it happen



But now LOL the GOP is using it against them

[geek tragedy]

96. The Republicans have one healthcare goal: return us to the health care system we had under Bush.

You support the Repubilcans 100% on their one healthcare policy goal: repealing Obamacare.

[sabrina 1]

74. Heh, another Democrat who supported the rescue of the Private HC Corporations and

was willing to accept a few crumbs for the teeming masses to appease them. Note I left out word there.

[geek tragedy]

75. Private HC corporations were in no need of rescue.

"A few crumbs" is the type of language used by people too lazy to learn all of the provisions of the ACA.

[pscot]

82. The drug companis were surely rescued

from the threat of cheap, imported medicines. That was the first thing taken off the table when it could probably have been enacted as stand alone legislation. Billy Tauzin must be an incredibly persuasive guy.

[uponit7771]

79. +1

[michigandem58]

104. For the Professional Left, but not genuine liberals

n/t

[think]

2. K&R. Words of wisdom from a whistle blower who suffered the blunt for exposting corruption

So it seems that in their goal to imprison me, to imprison John Kiriakou, to detain Bradley Manning in what have been called cruel and inhumane conditions and seek monstrous punishment, to aggressively prosecute NSA whistleblower Thomas Drake and others – they actually encouraged Snowden to reveal this important information.

[Luminous Animal]

4. Yep.

[JDPriestly]

3. Thank you, Shami Leibowitz, for speaking out. My heart cries upon reading your letter.

Another good man, a man of conscience unjustly punished by an over-bearing government.

For shame.

As Martin Luther King pointed out, we should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal". Of course, the abuses revealed by Snowden are a far cry from the atrocities of the Nazis, but the principle, nevertheless, is the same: obedience to the law should not be absolute. Technically, we whistleblowers broke the law, but we felt, as many have felt before, that the obligation to our consciences and basic human rights is stronger than our obligation to obey the law.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/07/06-1

Thank you, Shami Leibowitz, for speaking out.

We need to speak out for our rights while we still can.

[blkmusclmachine]

5. +1. "..the White House's Vindictive War on Whistleblowers."

We're all Germans now.

[Enthusiast]

6. The DOJ went after Leibowitz with a vengeance

while they ignored massive institutional bank fraud, money laundering and war profiteering to name but a few.

[L0oniX]

7. Makes me wonder who the evil doers are. n/t

[ConcernedCanuk]

18. South of my border . . .

.
.
.


And I got no intention of ever crossing it unless there is a HUGE change in government down there.

Not holding my breath . . .

CC

[Phlem]

93. In Politics

or in DU?



-p

[cantbeserious]

8. That Government Lawlessness Is Occurring Under A Democratic President Is Despicable

eom

[geek tragedy]

27. What lawlessness? nt

[bemildred]

29. "It is one of the genuine marks of servitude to have the law either concealed or precarious."

-- Sir Edward Coke . Do you know who Sir Edward Coke was?

[geek tragedy]

31. Of course.

The law is always going to be imperfect in its application as well as its design, ergo needs to improve it.

Blanket assertions of "lawlessness" however tend to be emotive rather than analytic.

[bemildred]

32. Such accusations are very popular among our ruling elites, are they not?

Applied to us citizens out here? I mean we need to watched, right?

Edit: the thing that is bothering me, is I see no sign of wanting to improve the law, what I see is a desperate desire to prevent that and keep things the way they are.

But the real problem is we have screwed the pooch intelligence wise, we can't be trusted, as Mr. Dempsey has pointed out.

[geek tragedy]

34. I would have no idea what is popular amongst our ruling elites, not being one.

Most citizens should not be watched. Others should be watched.

Nice thing about the NSA controversy is that, given the relative lack of transparency, everyone gets their own set of facts. If one wants to believe that it's a perfectly designed program with adequate safeguards, well then one can operate from that set of facts. If one believes that Obama is a megalomaniacal peeping tom who burns the constitution in his fireplace every night, well then one can just assume that as a fact.

There's no commonly accepted set of facts, ergo the discussions of principles and legalities are just people who enjoy seeing their own words on screen for the most part.

[bemildred]

37. People should only be watched when there is judicially certified probable cause, case by case.

Blanket future certifications, dragnets, and fishing expeditions and other forms of government arbitrariness are what the Constitution set out to prevent.

We are neck deep in transparency now, the problem is the government is still in denial about it, clinging to the past instead of looking to the future like always.

Facts are what juries determine.

[geek tragedy]

40. The law enforcement apparatus--divorced from intelligence gathering--is capable only

of punishing crimes, not preventing them.

Easy to say "we should only monitor the bad guys when we have evidence that they are bad guys."

The Constitution has never contemplated data mining. Heck, it's not even set up to deal with landline telephones, let alone cell phones. Speaking of clinging to the past . . .

[bemildred]

49. The Constitution does not need to know about data mining.

It is just a technology, they come and go. We have invented a new form of property: data. Happened many times in the past, will happen again many times.

I used to supervise some software engineers in a R&D environment. Some of them would get anal about data, you give them a big drive, they would fill it up with copies of stuff from the web. Some of them, that was about all they would do. That is what I see here, a failure to discriminate, there is an asumption that bigger must be better.

But in intelligence and covert activities, of course, that is exactly wrong, and we are now seeing a perfect example of why it is wrong. Bigger is not better in covert activites and surveillance. In those things the smaller your footprint, the better, the fewer people involved the better, the less you have to do the better, and so on. This was just stupid.

The problem is that that is not their data they are mining, it does not belong to them, and it is also not correct that it is valueless, it is property, valuable property, and they are stealing it and using it for their own purposes, without compensation, in fact against the interests of the people they are stealing it from.

[geek tragedy]

55. This would be a lot simpler if data belonged to the consumer. But it does not.

Congress could pass a law granting consumers property rights to that data. But it hasn't.

Also, keep in mind that the government can take property so long as it offers due compensation.

[bemildred]

64. I don't think we have really sorted that question out yet. Perhaps it is time?

However, data is very much property when it is software, and you can pay beaucoup bucks for data as data too, if it is the right data. But the question's been left quite conveniently murky overall.

So we HAVE decided that question, that at least sometimes data is property. Of course we could reverse that and decide that all data is free and not property. That is the old-school hacker position. I think that is excessive too. But it is clear that at least some data is property, so property law applies. And, as with most things, judgement is required, you have to argue it out, maybe even ask a jury to decide. At present we use copyright law as a patch.

We need much better Congresses , the best not the worst. The current Congress could not think it's way out of a paper bag, to mix metaphors, let alone find a workable answer to such an ambiguous question as when is data property and when is it free?

Nice exchange of views, I have to go now, thanks.

[geek tragedy]

65. cheers nt

[geek tragedy]

35. +1 nt

[frylock]

76. baaaaaahhhhhhhh

[TBF]

89. Happened with the Wilson administration as well -

and Palmer's zeal to drive out leftists mirrors Holder's attempts to classify socialist organizations as terrorists.

[Live and Learn]

9. Exactly, it is quite ironic that by being so adamant to punish

Snowden for his leaks about their ridiculous over-surveillance , they are drawing more attention to their misdeeds and keeping the news alive.

[ReRe]

13. K&R

Let the avalanche of blowback begin, before it's too late.

It IS a sad day, to see it all coming out during a Democratic Administration. The American People cry out for a real news media who will do the investigation journalism for us. Who will hold the government's feet to the fire. Who will tell us when the government is lying to us. Who will keep us informed with TRUTH, not with government propaganda talking points.

Whistleblowers are conscientious objectors. They are the truth-tellers. Yet this government treats them like traitors! Who are the traitors? NOT the whistleblowers. I think the entire body of elected officials are the traitors. The traitors are those who work for this massive Evil Military Intelligence machine (the MIIC) and don't blow the whistle about it on a daily basis!

This is what happens when you don't do the right thing to begin with. You tell a lie, then another, then another and before you know it you believe your own lies.

Honesty is the best policy, and the USA better get back to it. The world is onto us, and they aren't just going to punish our government. We will ALL be held accountable for the wrongs that our government has done. UNLESS WE STOP OUR DOMESTIC ENEMIES!

[truebluegreen]

15. +100

[Dustlawyer]

16. It should be very clear, they send messages. They had police attack peaceful protesters (do not

challenge us), and there are no charges/indictments for the war criminals or the Wall Streeters ( We are above the law)! Plenty of charges for pot growers and whistle blowers! Our politicians, judges, and media are owned by the 1% and the corporations!

[rhett o rick]

17. Oh for Dog's sake. Just drink your cool-aid and bow down to Booz-Allen and the Crlyle Group. nm

[chimpymustgo]

23. We do seem to be in a Matrix moment as citizens - blue pill or red pill. Face the truth or live in

the dream the State would like us to remain in.

[rhett o rick]

43. Yes I agree. nm

[G_j]

19. K&R

touching and very sad..

[blackspade]

20. More crimes covered up by the DOJ....

[ananda]

22. Of all sad words of tongue or pen ...

... the saddest are these, it might have been.

John Greenleaf Whittier

[DLevine]

24. K&R. nt

[AnotherMcIntosh]

25. More details are found here: "Shamai Leibowitz, a moral giant"

"Daily newspapers are supposed to put the most important news right at the top. But today's New York Times article {September 6, 2011} about Shamai Leibowitz leaking documents to blogger Richard Silverstein waits until the 6th paragraph, on an inside page, to tell us why he took the step that landed him in federal prison for 20 months. He did not pass on documents for money, or for vindictiveness. He broke the law because he was afraid Israel was going to launch a dangerous and disastrous strike against Iran's alleged nuclear program, and he wanted to sound a warning. He broke the law because he was answering to a higher law, and his name should go down in history as an example of courage."

"Shamai, who was born and raised in Israel, had a job translating F.B.I. wiretaps of the Israeli embassy in Washington. Something he heard in those wiretaps spurred him into action. Israel's campaign of threats against Iran was no secret, but quite a few people interpreted it as just noise."

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/09/shamai-leibowitz-a-moral-giant.html

[geek tragedy]

26. Leibowitz wasn't a whistleblower, he was a leaker.

One can debate whether his leak was helpful or harmful, but he was leaking intelligence we learned about a foreign power, he was not revealing misconduct by our own government.

[KharmaTrain]

39. My Question...

...why didn't he take this information to a Senator or member of Congress? That's how you blow a whistle and it leads to action. Leaking it to a blogger or opinion columnist...not so much...

[geek tragedy]

41. He wasn't blowing the whistle on US actions. He was concerned about what a foreign power

was going to do.

There isn't jack squat a US Congressman can do to influence Israel.

[KharmaTrain]

47. Exactly...

...and the similarities with Snowden...both gave classified information to a foreign government. A whistleblower looks out for the interests of his/her country first and would seek out a legislator (they're only 535 of 'em) to expose whatever crimes or corruption occurred.

[wildbilln864]

30. a big K & R! eom

[allin99]

53. I often think of this line from Assanges statement...

"Who is it that promised to preside over The Most Transparent Administration in history, only to crush whistleblower after whistleblower with the bootheel of espionage charges"

[Harmony Blue]

54. Good post

and read.

[AzDar]

86. K & R

[railsback]

102. I do see a lot of blowing back and forth

That much is true.

[Kurovski]

107. "Honk Kong"?

It looks like somebody let spellcheck get out of hand.

K&R