Josh Marshall: Kinda Curious What That Means (Ellsberg's claim)

[ProSense]

Kinda Curious What That Means

Josh Marshall

Many critics have unfavorably compared Edward Snowden to Daniel Ellsberg because he fled the country rather than stand trial. But Ellsberg now says that’s not a fair comparison because “The country I stayed in was a different America, a long time ago.”

Both as a rhetorical question and a real question I’m curious just what Ellsberg means by that. His basic argument is that he was able to stay out on bail and that wouldn’t have been an option for Snowden. On the other hand, the White House at the time was running a special operations team against Ellsberg out of the White House, including breaking into his psychiatrist’s office and at least some discussions of having him killed. So I’m not sure we can call those the glory days.

http://editors.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/07/kinda_curious_what_that_means_1.php

It makes no sense. From the Ellsberg's piece:

<...>

After the New York Times had been enjoined from publishing the Pentagon Papers — on June 15, 1971, the first prior restraint on a newspaper in U.S. history — and I had given another copy to The Post (which would also be enjoined), I went underground with my wife, Patricia, for 13 days. My purpose (quite like Snowden’s in flying to Hong Kong) was to elude surveillance while I was arranging — with the crucial help of a number of others, still unknown to the FBI — to distribute the Pentagon Papers sequentially to 17 other newspapers, in the face of two more injunctions. The last three days of that period was in defiance of an arrest order: I was, like Snowden now, a “fugitive from justice.”

Yet when I surrendered to arrest in Boston, having given out my last copies of the papers the night before, I was released on personal recognizance bond the same day. Later, when my charges were increased from the original three counts to 12, carrying a possible 115-year sentence, my bond was increased to $50,000. But for the whole two years I was under indictment, I was free to speak to the media and at rallies and public lectures. I was, after all, part of a movement against an ongoing war. Helping to end that war was my preeminent concern. I couldn’t have done that abroad, and leaving the country never entered my mind.

- more -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html

He knew he broke the law. He surrendered. He faced the consequences. He's arguing times have changed (ignoring the reality of his time), and claiming that it's justification for fleeing the country.

There have been several prominent whistleblowers over the last several years who did not flee the country.

William Binney, Thomas Drake, and Thomas Tamm are whistleblowers who stayed and faced the consequences of their actions. They were not persecuted, they faced prosecution. They are not in jail. In fact, Tamm was the one who exposed Bush's illegal eavesdropping on Americans.

Remember whistleblower Thomas Tamm?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023032225

[ProSense]

1. Kick for

the pretend good old days.

[Enrique]

2. is Josh aware what they did to Bradley Manning?

Ellsberg is right, the times are different.

[geek tragedy]

3. Manning didn't whistleblow, he document dumped.

There's zero argument that what Manning did was legal.

[Enrique]

4. you misunderstood my post n/t

[HardTimes99]

8. And Jose Padilla? Yipes, has Josh Marshall fallen

down the rabbit hole or what?

[ProSense]

15. Jose Padilla is a whitleblower?

Speaking of "rabbit hole."

[HardTimes99]

16. Jose Padilla is an American citizen who was tortured while

in captivity. Edward Snowden is an American citizen.

Get it now?

[ProSense]

22. Jose Padilla has absolutely nothing to do with a discussion about whistleblowers. Nothing! n/t

[yodermon]

57. The point of this subthread is that AMERICAN CITIZENS are/have been TORTURED in US CUSTODY.

but you knew that.

[HardTimes99]

61. Padilla has everything to do with what American citizens who are fugitives from justice might

expect in the way of pre-trial conditions from our national security state. Everything!

Although a gag order was placed on him and his attorneys as a result of their plea agreement, there's much credible evidence to suggest that John Walker Lindh was also tortured mightily while in U.S. custody awaiting trial. Again, everything!

[ProSense]

63. Bush sanctioning torture and Jose Padilla have absolutely nothing to do with whistleblowers. n/t

[questionseverything]

65. unfortunately the current pres

did not prosecute bush for holding padilla nearly 5 years without charges,with out bail and torturing padilla during that time

so while you talk about the law being the law,it clearly is not applied equally

[frazzled]

13. Military courts-martial and civilian prosecutions are totally different animals

I don't see how Manning fits into the picture at all. He was inside the military, and the entire prosecution and trial procedure are inside the military, where the rules are very, very different.

I'm not even convinced that there is a good parallel between Ellsberg and Snowden. What Ellsberg "took" and gave to the press was largely historical in nature: a very large but single report the government had compiled on the war from its beginnings, which shed light on what previous administrations had done. It contained many documents, to be sure, but it was very different in nature from exposing the innards of ongoing intelligence programs.

[randome]

14. And Ellsberg had proof. Snowden has claims. Big difference.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[randome]

5. Just because he's Ellsberg does not mean he is right.

Of course the same can be said of Josh Marshall but I have always valued his opinion.

Clint Eastwood is another 'fallen' liberal.
Drew Carey.
Ray Bradbury.

Sometimes age has deleterious effects on a person no matter their past.

I've mentioned it before but I'm curious what Ellsberg thinks about giving national security secrets to China. He won't say and no one is brave enough to ask him in an interview. Not that I've seen, anyways.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Enrique]

7. is this coordinated?

this is the second time I've seen Ellsberg's age to discredit him, just this morning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=67693

11. I think Mr Ellsberg is showing signs of senility

[randome]

9. We held a meeting.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[BeyondGeography]

29. I got the blue pieces

[dionysus]

67. oh yes, just like the treebaggers used to do in 2008...

[Bluenorthwest]

28. Clint Eastwood has always been a Republican and a conservative, ran for office as one years ago.

Drew Carey is and always was a Libertarian. He used to be a Marine, but he was never a liberal. I mean Drew is not a homophobe but he's also not a liberal. Never was. There was no 'fall' from liberality by either of those guys. Same for Bradbury. Always conservative, in a unique sort of way, but never a liberal.
Not sure what point you want to make with this, but your 'facts' about these guys are simply not correct at all.

[randome]

32. My 'facts' are always subject to revision.

But it was a surprise to many that the people mentioned turned out to be Conservative/Libertarian. The politics of most entertainers are not really scrutinized until they start 'coming out'.

I'm not saying Ellsberg is a Conservative. Or an entertainer. Far from it. But to equate Snowden with himself seems ridiculous.

Ellsberg had proof. Snowden has claims.

And Ellsberg still doesn't offer his opinion on giving away national security secrets to China. That is another facet that puts Snowden on an entirely different level from Ellsberg.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Bluenorthwest]

53. You made a claim about them that was no true. It is that simple. You made it up.

Claimed they were 'fallen liberals'. When that was not the case. So typing more words will not get me to take you seriously at all. Making shit up indicates that you will make shit up.

[reusrename]

58. There are several in their group that just make shit up all the time.

Why are they here?

[randome]

66. Right. I was wrong. But most people assumed they were something other than Conservative/Libertarian.

Until they 'came out'. I made the same assumption.

You can stay mad at me if you want.

But speaking of 'making shit up'...Snowden.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[galileoreloaded]

6. times have in fact, changed.

at least half of the country says this is OK, and we have an administration hell bent on pleasing that half, not "upsetting them".

It's a power vacuum of national integrity, a lack of leadership born from a fear to lead. evasion wasn't just reasonable, it was smart, lest some keyboard mob of low-level political functionaries decide that the payment for insulting their guy involve a gallon of water and a wet rag.

naked self interest is where this started, and its also where its going to end.

[HardTimes99]

11. Our former VP openly brags of having committed torture and

taunts the justice system to do anything about it.

I wish you would turn your response into an OP and build upon its themes.

[ProSense]

18. Actually,

"times have in fact, changed."

...history disagrees with you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program

It's interesting that after the constant berating of "empire," people want to pretend that the empire is recent.

Bush sanctioned torture. He's a war criminal in my eyes. That does not give validity to Ellsbergs claim.

[arely staircase]

27. not so much

"Americans and their South Vietnamese allies regularly used it (waterboarding) on enemy prisoners and civilian detainees in an effort to gain intelligence or simply punish them. A picture of the practice even landed on the front page of the Washington Post on January 21, 1968, but mostly it went on in secret."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/waterboarding-americans-and-redefinition-torture-history

Bush tried to claim it wasn't torture. Obama declared it was and stopped the practice. If Snowden is saying he is afraid he will be tortured, that is rich. He loved him some W. (who actually did torture people) and he is afraid to come home because the big scary guy that ended torture is president.

weak.

[Broward]

10. Josh Marshall is being deliberately obtuse.

[bigtree]

36. glad you straightened him out

. . . with this concise, but informative reply.

[Broward]

48. Glad you straightened me out

... with this concise, but informative reply.

[bigtree]

49. t'was my pleasure

[reusrename]

60. Josh is pretending to be stupid.

He's pretending he never, ever heard of Sibel Edmonds.

He's pretending that he didn't write a piece accusing Snowden of histrionics because he accused the Obama administration of using extra-legal methods to go after him; this only two days before Evo Morales jet was illegally detained in order to look for Snowden.

Josh Marshall is smart enough to know that almost everything he says on this subject is made up bullshit.

[bigtree]

62. mebbe

good points

[Cha]

69. Josh Marsall is smart.. you're pretending otherwise.

[reusrename]

70. Are you pretending to be stupid?

In the case of Josh Marshall I know it's just an act.

[cali]

12. what? Thomas Drake wasn't persecuted? He would beg to differ

Frankly, his word means more to me than yours. A lot more. Drake's persecution by the government extended until 2011- at least 2 years under the Obama administration's Justice Department. It's despicable to falsely claim he wasn't persecuted.

http://www.whistleblower.org/action-center/save-tom-drake

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/whats-a-leak-the-art-of-whistleblowing-and-cyber-spying-moma

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/21/in_unprecedented_obama_admin_crackdown_nsa

Want more links? Just ask. There are plenty of them, and I know your fondness for links.

[ProSense]

21. Silliness

"what? Thomas Drake wasn't persecuted? He would beg to differ"

...routine law enforcement is not persecution.

I mean, if you're going to dismiss the reality of what happened to Ellsberg, you can't present that information as persecution.

[hootinholler]

42. "routine law enforcement is not persecution."

I think the Ivans might disagree with you.

[randome]

23. And it was the current Administration that dropped charges to a misdemeanor.

Why did it take so long? I don't know. But I would bet that any incoming Administration has to handle thousands of pending cases. I would also guess (just guess, mind you) that with various delays on the part of both Prosecution and Defense, time can be quickly eaten up.

But the result is that Drake's charges were dropped except for the misdemeanor charge.

He endured much more persecution from Bush, Jr.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Savannahmann]

17. And how many of them were out on bail awaiting trial?

How many of them were held naked and incommunicado by the authorities? How many of them had the opportunity, or the ability to discuss the issues with the press while awaiting trial?

It is a different world, and we are refusing to acknowledge it.

[arely staircase]

38. Snowden has proven himself a flight risk

I doubt bail is an option for him at this point.

[Savannahmann]

46. And Manning and the rest?

Were they too flight risks? No, they were made examples of. To dissuade others from telling us about immoral, unethical actions of our Government. Our Government. That is the key we are ignoring.

[arely staircase]

47. Manning is being tried under a different system so I don't know what the standards for bail are.

But Snowden is definitely a flight risk and has virtually no chance of bail.

[Octafish]

19. Josh must hope to get invited to Meet the Press

Otherwise, he'd write about the NPR reporter who heard the Spooks talk about sending in a hit team.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022982793

[bigtree]

35. what?

UNDER THE BUS WITH HIM!!!iii

[enough]

20. Daniel Ellsberg very clearly explains what he means by it in his own essay,

which is linked in the OP. There is no mystery at all about what he means. It's a very clear statement, worth reading carefully.

Having lived through both of these events, I agree with Mr. Ellsberg's conclusion. In fact, I was recently looking back at his history and thinking what a stark example it is of how drastically our society and government have changed since that time. Mr. Ellsberg received meaningful due process.

[treestar]

24. It was pre-FISA!

It was harder on the leaker! There were no whistleblower protections!

[randome]

25. Oh, yeah. That.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[ProSense]

26. Good point, and

"It was harder on the leaker! There were no whistleblower protections! "

...Snowden went out of his way to avoid those protections.

[dkf]

30. Ah so you do thnk he is a whistleblower entitled to whistleblower protections?

And look and the people agreeing with you. Lol. Funny.

[ProSense]

31. The

"Ah so you do thnk he is a whistleblower entitled to whistleblower protections? And look and the people agreeing with you. Lol. Funny."

...WPA says nothing about fleeing the country and giving U.S. state secrets to other countries.

Snowden isn't a whistleblower because...the law.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023187207

[treestar]

59. No, but he and his supporters think he is a whistleblower

If you mean Snowden.

Who cares who agrees with who? Do you make your decisions based on what others think?

[bigtree]

33. glad Marshall fleshed this out

. . . he took some hits earlier in the day when he first raised the question.

[Romulus Quirinus]

34. We hadn't yet developed the tendency to throw people into the hole so as to keep them incommunicado

for one thing.

[ProSense]

37. Here's

"We hadn't yet developed the tendency to throw people into the hole so as to keep them incommunicado for one thing. "

...another person who didn't flee the country after leaking information, and who isn't in "the hole."

WASHINGTON — A federal grand jury in Washington has indicted a State Department analyst suspected of disclosing top-secret information about North Korea to Fox News, the third time the Obama administration has filed criminal charges accusing people of leaks to the news media.

The indictment, dated Aug. 19 and unsealed on Friday, named Stephen Jin-Woo Kim, 43, of McLean, Va., a specialist in nuclear proliferation who worked as a contractor for the State Department. Mr. Kim, who has worked as a high-level foreign affairs analyst for a decade for various federal agencies, is accused of disclosing the information in June 2009 and of lying to the F.B.I. in September 2009.

Mr. Kim, an American citizen, pleaded not guilty on Friday in Federal District Court before Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly and was released on $100,000 bond.

- more -

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/28/world/americas/28leak.html

[Romulus Quirinus]

39. Mr. Kim didn't embarass the same people that Mr. Snowden did, nor did Mr. Kim threaten their power.

Nor did I claim that all leakers at all levels are put into that same degraded state once caught.

[ProSense]

40. Are you talking about Snowden releasing U.S. state secrets to other countries? n/t

[Romulus Quirinus]

41. As Mr. Kim did? nt

[ProSense]

43. What? n/t

[kentuck]

44. Is this what you mean?

“The country I stayed in was a different America, a long time ago.”


I can think of a lot of differences between now and then. On top of the list is the technology and information revolution.

[ProSense]

45. Yes,

Is this what you mean?

“The country I stayed in was a different America, a long time ago.”

I can think of a lot of differences between now and then. On top of the list is the technology and information revolution.

...I was talking about technology, not whistleblowing.

You know what else was different: The Voting Rights Act hadn't been gutted.

[Th1onein]

50. Two Words: AMERICA TORTURES

[ProSense]

51. That's a change?

I know you want to believe that's the current policy, but it isn't

[Bluenorthwest]

52. And you speak under what authority as to that which is in the hearts of others? 'I know you want'

What a horrible accusation to fling for no real reason. What is says about the politics that informs your work is not good.

[ProSense]

56. Your comment makes no sense. n/t

[Astrad]

54. It's a matter of debate

Barack Obama accused of torture for willingness to force-feed Guantanamo Bay prisoners on hunger strike

Both the World Medical Association and American Medical Association have categorized force-feeding without informed consent of the patient as a form of human rights abuse, if not torture.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/06/28/barack-obama-accused-of-torture-for-willingness-to-force-feed-guantanamo-bay-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/|

[ProSense]

55. I suppose

"It's a matter of debate"

...it is. I mean, there are ethical and medical concerns and other issues to be considered. Still, is trying to keep someone alive the same as torturing them to death?

Dianne Feinstein:

"Hunger strikes are a long known form of non-violent protest aimed at bringing attention to a cause, rather than an attempt at suicide," she wrote in a letter. "I believe that the current approach raises very important ethical questions and complicates the difficult situation regarding the continued indefinite detention at Guantanamo. I urge you to re-evaluate the force-feeding policies at Guantanamo Bay and put in place the most humane policies possible."

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/feinstein-stop-force-feeding-guantanamo-bay-detainees

Now, let's say the administration stops this practice. What happens if a prisoner dies?

War crimes tribunal orders force-feeding of Serbian warlord

The UN war crimes tribunal in The Hague last night ordered the force-feeding of a Serbian warlord and senior politician who has been on hunger strike in custody for almost a month.

The decision, the first such order since the court was set up more than a decade ago to deal with war crimes in the former Yugoslavia, came after a medical examination of Vojislav Seselj concluded that he might be a fortnight away from dying.

<...>

The tribunal last night told Dutch authorities to force-feed Mr Seselj if there was a risk of him dying. "There is a prevailing interest in continuing with the trial of the accused in order to serve the ends of justice," it said in a statement. "The trial ... should not be undermined by the accused's manipulative behaviour."

<...>

While stating that any force-feeding deemed necessary for lifesaving purposes should not contradict "compelling internationally accepted standards of medical ethics or binding rules of international law", the judges at the tribunal also noted that the body of law laid down by the European court of human rights did not view force-feeding as "torture, inhuman or degrading treatment if there is a medical necessity to do so ... and if the manner in which the detainee is force-fed is not inhuman or degrading".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/dec/07/balkans.warcrimes

The best way out of this situation is to end the practice, release the prisoners and close Gitmo. Can that happen before a tragedy (death by starvation)?

New State Dept. Envoy Begins Work Of Closing Guantánamo

The new State Department special envoy for closing the United States military's detention center located at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba began the effort to shut down the polarizing prison camp, McClatchy reported Thursday.

Clifford Sloan, a former publisher of Slate magazine and a Washington attorney who’s worked in all three branches of government, embarked on a one-day tour of the prison facility, where he had discussions with military and medical personnel.

In a major national security speech in May, President Barack Obama vowed to close Gitmo, which he said has "become a symbol around the world for an America that flouts the rule of law." Obama has drawn criticism, mostly from the left, for failing to close the detention center during his first term in office, despite his 2008 campaign pledge to do so.

“President Obama has been very clear as he laid out the goal,and the objective is to close Guantánamo," Sloan told McClatchy. “Our marching orders are clear.”

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/new-state-dept-envoy-begins-work-of-closing

ACLU Comment on Appointment of Envoy to Close Guantánamo
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023036083

[Waiting For Everyman]

64. Maybe Ellsburg knows his own case better than this author does.

I think Snowden would've been a fool to stay here and come out with this info. This he-should've-stayed-here attack is a very dishonest smear, and dishonest is how those pushing it come off.

[Cha]

68. Thank goodness for Josh Marshall.. I was thinking

Ellsberg was getting all dewy eyed about back in the day.

thank you, ProSense..

[Major Hogwash]

71. Lawrence O'Donnell talked about this Ellsberg piece on his show tonight.

And Lawrence pretty much ripped to shreds Ellsberg's comparisons of Snowden to himself.
It was a very interesting program tonight.

Also on tonight's program O'Donnell played Snowden's taped interview video when he claimed that he joined the Army "right after the Iraq War started."
However, O'Donnell pointed out the fact that Snowden did NOT join the service right after the Iraq War Started.
In fact, Snowden didn't sign up until after Bush had declared "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq.
And by then we ALL knew that no WMDs had been found in Iraq, even though Snowden had claimed he was just being patriotic when he signed up "to do the right thing."

[ProSense]

72. Snowden claims are suspect.

Given the comments attributed to him in the past, I don't believe the interview, flawed as it is, is genuine.