Spain says U.S. tipoff led it to query Bolivian flight

[morningfog]

Spain acknowledged on Tuesday that a U.S. request had led it to delay approving an overflight by Bolivia's president, but said it had given the go-ahead after receiving an assurance from Bolivia that U.S. fugitive Edward Snowden was not on the plane.

Bolivia has accused Spain, France, Portugal and Italy of closing their skies to President Evo Morales' plane last week after being told it was carrying the former U.S. spy agency contractor from Moscow to Bolivia, and demanded to know who gave them that information.

Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo was asked by reporters whether the alert had come from the United States. He replied: "Inter alia (among other things)."

He also confirmed the account of Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca, who said on Sunday that Garcia-Margallo had asked Bolivia for a written assurance that Snowden was not on the plane before opening its airspace.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/09/us-usa-security-latinamerica-spain-idUSBRE9680OB20130709

[dkf]

1. What are the deniers going to say now?

[morningfog]

2. I guess Spain is in on the conspriacy or staged drama or something.

[HooptieWagon]

4. nya, nya, I can't hear you!

[dkf]

5. Lol. Yes we are all on ignore.

What's that Barbara Bush saying about her beautiful mind?

[flamingdem]

12. I don't have anyone on ignore, Catherina has me on ignore however nt

[dkf]

16. How can you tell?

[flamingdem]

17. She said so in a thread today where she also called me lots of

unpleasant names.

[Mojorabbit]

20. You have disrupted a lot of her threads

There was one the other night where almost the whole page was your posts in a argument with various people. It makes it impossible to read a discussion. If you go back and look maybe you can see where it does start to be a bit rude. I understand you
are trying to make some points but it can be done in a way that the flow of discussion is facilitated.
Be Well, Mojo

[flamingdem]

21. Oh here we have an impartial judge

[Mojorabbit]

24. I will be happy to give you the link

You are just about every other post in a pissing match with someone all down the page.

[leveymg]

82. I always thought that was the point of having a comments thread - discussion, by any other

name (pissing match, etc.) -- is just part of the fun, the more heated the better. It's what makes this place interesting and the threads worth reading.

On this one, I think flamingdem has the high ground. But what the Hell, that's just my opinion. Back at it, kids!

[Mojorabbit]

85. Discussion is great. Disruption not so much. Life is too short :)

[leveymg]

89. What's the difference, really?

Isn't disruption just discussion with feeling? I don't know. There's really only one kind of thread hijack, as far as I'm concerned, and that's posting crap like recipes that's totally OT as a way of dissing the OP. Disruption can also be sheer abuse --with no socially or intellectually redeeming value to it -- toward another poster. Other than that, it's discussion, no matter the temperature.

Just my .02. Peace.

[reusrename]

103. It used to be called thread spamming.

If I go down someone's thread and just keep posting "your wrong" over and over to people who are trying to have a conversation, it's just disruptive.

There is no other purpose behind it and I am kind of surprised that it's not frowned upon. People who did this stuff used to be called trolls. Back in the day, spammers were the lowest of the low.

[leveymg]

106. It also kicks the thread, so how bad can it be?

If the purpose is malicious and to drown out the OP (and those who agree), it doesn't work because it kicks the thread up to the top of the GD every 25 comments.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

6. They'll just deny from a different angle.

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. I wish I could track DU's PMs. They'll be here as soon as they have a unified front. n/t

[CakeGrrl]

58. Wish you could monitor stuff, huh? Ironic!

With maybe a touch of paranoia and projection.

Perhaps it's something you and other like minds do, so you suspect it of others.

[Enrique]

14. they're going to hate on Spain n/t

[Mojorabbit]

18. I am in another thread and the reply is that it is a rumor! nt

[KittyWampus]

69. The thread title is patently false.

Spain Says Alert About Morales Plane Reached Madrid From Inside Europe (NOT The USA)


"Asked whether the alert about Snowden’s ostensible presence on Morales’ plane came from the United States, Garcia-Margallo said only that the report reached Madrid from inside Europe."

http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/latino-daily-news/details/spain-apologies-for-diplomatic-misunderstanding-over-bolivias-detoured-pres/25716/

[dkf]

72. Yeah, the US ambassador to Spain or some such. Lol.

[KittyWampus]

74. I posted below SEVERAL articles below & in a separate thread which refute the bullshit OP.

But here is the main snip

Spain Says Alert About Morales Plane Reached Madrid From Inside Europe (NOT The USA)

"Asked whether the alert about Snowden’s ostensible presence on Morales’ plane came from the United States, Garcia-Margallo said only that the report reached Madrid from inside Europe."

http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/latino-daily-news/details/spain-apologies-for-diplomatic-misunderstanding-over-bolivias-detoured-pres/25716/

[snooper2]

88. The diners say

that the lobster tail was really dry-

BUT!
The asparagus and tomatoes were delish!

[morningfog]

3. kick

[kenny blankenship]

8. I was told the whole thing was a racist libertarian lie made up by racist libertarian Evo Morales

One group says it happened and produces evidence in the form of apologies and excuses issued by France and statements by Spanish government officials. Another group says it's all a hysterical persecution fantasy of the President of Bolivia and nobody blocked his plane and kept him on the ground for half a day while he was pressed for permission for other countries' personnel to board and search his aircraft.

One of you two must be deliberately lying to me.

[dkf]

9. Or one group is deluded.

[morningfog]

10. One group is full of shit and has been since day one. Nothing has changed, except

how utterly ridiculous they look.

[bobduca]

28. blind partisans are blind

[flamingdem]

11. My theory is that it was a case of a rumor and a confusion over the extradition request

If there really was US involvement in telling Spain what to do they should say who said it.

Instead they say they never blocked the airspace.

So they were confused, there was a rumor / hoax and this is why they don't feel they have to apologize.

They didn't do more than attempt to do what they thought was best at the time. But that didn't include blocking the plane

If anyone has an accurate source that says they were not allowed to go refuel in Las Palmas, please post that. If that's true it should be shown to the Spanish as a part of the OAS inquiry because it goes against any claim they made to have not blocked the plane.

Anyone?

[morningfog]

13. We'll get more details when the diplomats answer Bolivia's summons.

There was no confusion, though. The US told the nations involved, in no uncertain terms, that Snowden was on board. They said it was a certainty. The countries were told to act straight away, and they did. The US knew it was the Bolivian president's plane.

[flamingdem]

15. Well you have to prove that fact with a link. That's not what the Spanish guy said

He said between other things, as in, maybe sort of.

If it was true he should be able to come up with a name.

One of them should be able to name this guy.

That would be convincing if they did that.

[morningfog]

19. He said "among other things." As in, "the US told us Snowden was on board, AMONG OTHER THINGS."

And now you are saying you aren't convinced because he isn't giving you the name of the person who called him? Quite looking for links, because your denial is too deep for any to cure.

If you put all of the statements of the officials in each nation, the picture is coming sharply into focus. The US was near certain Snowden was on Morales' and made the calls for the countries to act straight away. There is really no more wiggle room for those who want to ignore it.

[flamingdem]

22. It's not my denial, it's how any fact finding process should go

My conclusion: Morales doesn't get the condemnation he wants from the OAS

[morningfog]

23. It most certainly is your denial.

You ignore facts as you move along to fit your narrow narrative. There is no doubt in any critical thinking mind that the US was not the force behind the forced landing of Morales' plane.

[bobduca]

27. More like your "blind hope"

so the spanish diplomat was lying because he didn't provide the name of the US diplomat who said to search the plane! I bet he's a secret libertarian too, working double secret undercover! HOW DEVIOUS!

[flamingdem]

29. Whatever was said they gave the Bolivians passage, so how bad could it be?

?

You're confusing the accusation by Morales: they did not let me pass.

With the explanation: yes we did

This is the issue, was he held up or not?

[morningfog]

31. They cleared him to pass after denying passage. Both are accurate statements.

So is this one: The US told them Snowden was on the plane and not to let it pass. Spain didn't just take a shit and say, hey, let's fuck aroung with Morales, how bout it!

[flamingdem]

33. In other words you know nada about what happened

so why get exercised about it.

[reusrename]

104. People are upset with YOU!

Your behavior is infuriating to rational people. You are always wrong about anything and yet you claim to be clueless of this fact.

That's why folks tend to get exercised. Watching you masturbate in public is disturbing.

[flamingdem]

124. Brainiac I was right and it was confirmed yesterday

None of the EU countries apologized to Morales because none of them blocked his airspace.

That's the record.

Squirt your love juices elsewhere sweetheart

[reusrename]

137. What is your malfunction?

Spain Admits U.S. Behind Rumor Snowden Was Aboard Bolivian Jet
Spain has acknowledged a request from the U.S. prompted last week’s blockade of a plane carrying Bolivian President Evo Morales. The Bolivian plane was grounded in Austria for 14 hours after Spain, France, Portugal and Italy closed their airspace over false rumors NSA leaker Edward Snowden was on board. On Tuesday, Spanish Foreign Minister José Manuel García-Margallo confirmed for the first time that the rumor came from the U.S. government. He went on to say he is willing to apologize to Bolivia.

Spanish Foreign Minister José Manuel García-Margallo: "There seems to be a misunderstanding there, and if there is a misunderstanding, I don’t have any problem apologizing to President Morales. That is, if President Morales thinks that there has been a misunderstanding, that is no problem. I insist, neither the airspace nor landing authorization were closed at any moment. It’s the only one that remains open."

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/10/headlines/spain_admits_us_behind_rumor_snowden_was_aboard_bolivian_jet

[flamingdem]

49. I don't think one article is enough to go on. Why hasn't someone brought up this guys name?

Maybe they will tomorrow.

No I don't agree the US was near certain. They might have been suspicious.

The main point is that no one blocked Morales plane from airspace which is what he claimed.
It was refuted today

[frylock]

64. you're just bound and determined to go down with the ship

[Aerows]

109. It's almost

excruciating to watch. It's to the point where I can almost see how they deluded themselves into believing the map post and such as.

[frylock]

119. it used to be kinda fun correcting these people, pointing and laughing..

but, yes, it is now getting rather sad watching the absolute state of denial these folks live in.

[KittyWampus]

120. NO HE DID NOT. Here is the one word he supposedly uttered in a SPANISH newspaper…

Preguntado si la alerta de que Snowden iba en el avión de Morales provino de Estados Unidos, García-Margallo se ha limitado a responder: "Interárea".

Inter alia is LATIN. It is not Spanish.

Spanish/Spanish speaking newspapers are reporting the alert came from INSIDE EUROPE- Interarea.



Alert About Morales Plane Reached Madrid From Inside Europe (NOT The USA) As Per Garcia-Margello

Last edited Wed Jul 10, 2013, 01:39 AM USA/ET - Edit history (6)

"Asked whether the alert about Snowden’s ostensible presence on Morales’ plane came from the United States, Garcia-Margallo said only that the report reached Madrid from inside Europe."

http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/latino-daily-news/details/spain-apologies-for-diplomatic-misunderstanding-over-bolivias-detoured-pres/25716/

…………………………………………………………...

As of TuesdayGarcia-Margall is reported as NOT referring to the origin of info.

Madrid, Jul 9.- The Spanish foreign minister, Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo, stated today that he is willing to apologize to Bolivian president, Evo Morales, whose aircraft was prevented from flying over the airspace of various European countries.

snip
During a press conference organized by the news agency, the Spanish foreign minister insisted on his version, which supports that Spain never revoked the aircraft authorization to fly over Spanish airspace and land on Canary Islands to carry out a refueling stop.

snip
Interviewed by Television Española television station, the foreign minister stated that at the beginning "we were told that the data were clear, that the former CIA agent was in Morales' plane".

He said that the measure taken by European countries regarding the flight of the Bolivian president was a response to the information they received, without referring to the origin, saying that Snowden was inside the plane. (Prensa Latina)

…………………………………………………………..

Someone posted a article from Reuters purpoting to have Garcia Margallo quoted fully as saying the info came from the USA… the only word of his quote with no context whatsoever is supposedly "inter alia" which is a latin term, not spanish.

In another article I found the word in Spanish as inter aria (inter area) which would be closer to hispanically speaking reports of "inter Europe".

Preguntado si la alerta de que Snowden iba en el avión de Morales provino de Estados Unidos, García-Margallo se ha limitado a responder: "Interárea".


http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/1866744/0/garcia-margallo/disculpas/evo-morales/

[dkf]

25. Bolivia wants a name too...

"We are simply asking the government of Spain and the other governments, of course, to clarify and explain where that version of Mr. Snowden being on the presidential plane came from," Communications Minister Amanda Davila said. "Who spread that fallacy, that lie?"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/09/us-usa-security-latinamerica-idUSBRE9670R320130709

[HooptieWagon]

26. You'll deny it no matter how much proof.

[flamingdem]

30. I doubt you're even following the proceedings

[limpyhobbler]

34. ((( Shwooop ))) ...... here ya go ...

US Ambassador to Austria Reportedly Responsible for False Claim Snowden Was on Bolivian Leader’s Plane

The Austrian daily newspaper, Die Presse, has reported that the United States ambassador to Austria was responsible for making false claims that National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden was on board Bolivian President Evo Morales’ plane.

In a story published on July 3, the newspaper reported shortly after Morales’ plane landed the “Vienna foreign department received a phone call.” The caller was the US ambassador to Austria, William Eacho.

According to Die Presse, Eacho “claimed with great certainty that Edward Snowden was onboard.” He also made reference to a “diplomatic note requesting Snowden’s extradition.”

The Associated Press reported on July 2 that Morales’ plane had been rerouted to Austria after European countries would not allow it to fly over their airspace because they suspected Snowden might be on board. The countries included Spain, France, Portugal and Italy.

http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2013/07/05/us-ambassador-to-austria-reportedly-responsible-for-false-claim-snowden-was-on-bolivian-leaders-plane/

[flamingdem]

36. This is ancient history. Die Presse was the only source and if Eacho did that it should be

mentioned at the OAS session. It's not a factor of importance.

Eacho was delivering the extradiction request, that's where the confusion exists

Even if he said something about Snowden there was no formal search of the plane

There was no kidnapping, hijacking etc.

[limpyhobbler]

41. So you already knew the USA told Austria that Snowden was on the plane. awesome!

[flamingdem]

42. Anything that matters should come out in these sessions

The rest is blah blah

[limpyhobbler]

45. Seems important that the US ambassador told Austria that Snowden was on the plane.

That seems kind of important when the question is about who was telling everyone Snowden was on the plane.

[flamingdem]

47. I'm sure by now you can see there's a lot of confusion

and he said she said.

All that matters to Morales is a condemnation. That will be done by a vote.

Ideally all the facts are on the table. If they're not then the countries involved didn't insist.

[limpyhobbler]

51. I don't see any confusion.

[flamingdem]

53. You believe in a narrative. Others agree in another.

You don't have all the facts.

[limpyhobbler]

54. I read a fact in the news. USA told Austria that Snowden was on the plane.

A fact. right?

[LondonReign2]

133. Truly, I must repeat myself

Watching these people deny PUBLISHED FACTS because they don't fit their predetermined worldview is exactly the same experience I had arguing with Shrub supporters back in the day. Facts simply don't matter to them.

It's highly embarrassing watching what I believe are good Democrats contort themselves like this due to cult of personality.

[struggle4progress]

80. Do we actually know that for a fact? Austria had the day before summoned Eacho to demand

an explanation from the US regarding Snowden's allegations that the US was spying on Europe. That's a serious diplomatic move, and as a general rule it's going to get a serious response

It seems rather unlikely to me that the day after Austria summoned Eacho, the US would have demanded Austria search a plane for Snowden; and it would have been grossly undiplomatic and hence risky for Eacho to have tried something like that

A more credible explanation might be that Eacho wrote a careful report to Foggy Bottom the day before regarding the issues Austria wanted answered, that draft responses were studied and discussed most of the next day in DC, and that before CoB on that second day, Eacho received his instructions on how Washington wanted him to respond, so he immediately called up his Austrian contacts to say he had Washington's response and wanted to provide it ASAP: how early tomorrow could they meet him? But it's six (6) hours later in Vienna than in DC, so his phone call is mid-evening. Normally that might be unusual, but in this case it might not be

[Aerows]

110. Lord have MERCY!

The lengths you folks will go to interject some doubt about the facts. I guess as long as you can come up with some argument that people don't know the facts, despite them providing sources for those facts, it's all good, right?

You just need to provide doubt, unreasonable as it may be.

[sabrina 1]

46. Well, obviously we know it was a rumor and since it was false, Spain has no

alternative but to call it what everyone now knows.

However they acted on what they were told so obviously at the time did not view it as a rumor.

How embarrassing for those once proud sovereign nations to be caught jumping on the end of the US's string. Not that people haven't know what is going on Europe over the past several years.

It's painful to watch. The best result of all this would be to see the people of Europe throw out all their Goldman puppets, assuming they are allowed to do so anymore, and starting acting like sovereign states, as Iceland did. Arrest the Bankers and the Crooked politicians and start over. Take some lessons from Latin America where they began that process over a decade ago.

[Thinkingabout]

32. Guess Bolivia did not scare Spain, Spain still is control their air space and it probably

doesn't matter if the long arm of the US is able to reach further than some planned. Bolivia will need to remain nice to the countries in which they need air space in order to travel.

[flamingdem]

35. It's basically a hissyfit and they'll end up finding a way for everyone

to save face.

It's not some draconian thing as the Bolivians experienced it, and this came out today

The EU countries said, Evo look, we're not apologizing for blocking you, cuz we didn't

[Thinkingabout]

37. Bolivia will have to deal with whatever the country whose airspace is being used, I don't think

Bolivia is up to taking on Europe.

[frylock]

68. you're fucking kidding, right?

who do you think you're fooling, aside from yourself?

France apologizes to Bolivia for blocking president’s plane; Bolivia calls it 'virtual kidnapping'

France has apologized to Bolivia for not allowing President Evo Morales’ private plane to fly over its airspace on July 2.

Suspecting that Edward Snowden, the National Security Agency whistleblower who’s been hiding out in a Moscow airport, was onboard, France, along with Spain and Portugal, blocked Morales’ plane, forcing it to land in Vienna to refuel.

While in Vienna, the plane was searched, revealing that Morales, flying back to Bolivia after attending an energy conference in Russia, wasn’t giving a lift to any fugitives.

<snip>

French President Francois Hollande told reporters that permission to fly over was delayed because of “conflicting information” about its passengers, BBC News reported. He claims he granted permission for the plane to fly over France as soon as he knew it was carrying Morales.

<more>

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/130704/france-apologizes-bolivia-blocking-president-s-plane

France Apologies for Delaying Bolivia Presidential Flight

PARIS--French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius Wednesday evening apologized to Bolivia for closing its airspace to Bolivian President Evo Morales Tuesday evening when many suspected the Bolivian presidential jet might have been carrying National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden.

In an official statement, Mr. Fabius said he gave his Bolivian counterpart David Choquehuanca all the "necessary clarifications," though he didn't elaborate on the reasons why the French authorities denied Mr. Morales's presidential jet the right to cross France.

<more>

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20130703-708369.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Vienna Convention be damned

I mean it is not like we don't have treaties or 'thing to make sure the children play nice on this world.

I am betting you would be asking for war if this was done to AF 1.

Believe it or not, AF 1 and the Bolivian Presidential plane are treated the same way under the Convention. I know, I know, it should only apply to us.



I mean we are proper and they are not.

And yes, the arguments are coming down to that ugliness.

[Thinkingabout]

43. It could be, if AF1 was hauling someone like Snowden around and Snowden had made the statements

about as many nations as he has and those nations wanted custody of this person and this was the way to get that custody. Would you think AF1 would be hauling a fugitive around like Snowden? Don't think so, AF1 would not put themselves in that position. Also, doubt AF1 would intentionally infringe on airspace without preplanning.

[muriel_volestrangler]

95. US government planes kidnapped people and took them for torture in other countries

The USA does not hold the moral ground here. It is at the bottom of the pile.

[struggle4progress]

102. That was one of Bush's many serious crimes IMO, and sadly most of Europe

cooperated with him on that

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. You really have no clue what you are talking about

Not at all

Let me save it for you

USA, USA, USA,

[Caretha]

115. The Bolivian President's plane

was Not, I repeat was Not hauling "a fugitive around like Snowden?" <-----Your words

What part of that do you not get? Using your logic, that means that AF1 can be denied airspace based upon suspicion and rumors also.
Perhaps even forced to land in a country it had no plans on landing in based on fuel/air flight problems.

Jeesh! I sometimes wonder whatever happened to critical thinking skills, and why it seems a couple of generations are lacking them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. That is by design

Sadly

[frylock]

71. they're savages and they really need to know their place..

I mean, Evo Morales is indio for fuck's sake. what does he know?

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. I know, the imperialism is showing

[sabrina 1]

50. Bolivia has just received the full backing of most of the OAS member states

so it's no longer just Bolivia. The whole of Latin America, a force to be reckoned with these days, no longer under the thumbs of our former Dictator allies there.

They can always trade with China and Russia and among themselves. The world has been changing while we were busy fighting the phony 'WOT' and this was a rude awakening to the fact that Latin American nations are no long 'colonies', which we seem to forget sometimes, and as those nations pointed out very clearly in their statements.

[Thinkingabout]

55. Good for them, they need to stand on their own, I don't care who they trade with but if someone does

not want them in their airspace then that is the right of the country which the airspace belongs. Who is Bolivia to gripe and complain and try to control those countries.?

[frylock]

73. they didn't have a problem with morales using their airspace..

it was the US that had a problem with morales using their airspace.

[sabrina 1]

94. That would be fine, if you were right. This was against International Immunity

agreements and a violation of International law. THAT is why the Europeans are all denying it now and apologizing pretending it was a 'misunderstanding'. I guess you don't understand what a huge error in judgement this was, but THEY do.

By doing this they have ENDANGERED OUR OWN DIPLOMATS, this is WHY we have those international agreements.

This is why countries do not violate these laws even when tempted to do so. This is not a kindergarten spat, it will have huge consequences and you can be sure people are scrambling behind the scenes right now to try to calm things down.

You want it to be a free for all regarding matters like this? Thank the gods wiser heads are in charge of these things. Read up on Immunity and International Agreements on matters like this before making comments like this again, the reasons for them, why WE are a part of them, and you might begin to understand how very childish your comment is. The State Dept know, as does President Obama.

Thankfully your opinion is in the minority. I wonder would you feel the same way if THEY did this to our President. I know the answer to that question.

[struggle4progress]

101. Do you have the text of the OAS resolution?

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. There you go, spreading anti american rumors!!!!!

[Thinkingabout]

44. What anti American rumors?

[galileoreloaded]

39. No way! The dozen or so indoctrinated told us it wasn't so in blue link!

Wharrrrgarblll!!!!!

[struggle4progress]

48. ... Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo, insisted today that Spain never closed

its airspace ...
España pide disculpas a Morales si cree que hubo "malentendido" con su avión
EFE - Madrid
09/07/2013 - 12:10h
http://www.eldiario.es/politica/Espana-disculpas-Morales-malentendido-avion_0_151885054.html

Without full quotes with context, it's impossible to figure out what is actually being said by the diplomats. It's easy enough to project all kinds of meanings onto half-sentences, but as far as I can tell, Spain has taken the PoV from the start that it never closed its airspace to Morales, and the statement today seems to be something along the lines of "We have no problem apologizing if we contributed to any misunderstanding"

[flamingdem]

52. This is on the record. They never refused airspace.

I remember that night the Portugese told them to go to Las Palmas Spain.

That was free and clear for them to go, but they didn't.

Then they showed up in Vienna with a faulty fuel gauge.

That all needs to be explained.

I think there was some error, mechanical issue with the plane / pilot as well.

Not to mention language difficulties.

[struggle4progress]

56. Las Palmas is in the Canary Islands. It's 1300km beyond Lisbon. I think the Bolivians

might have planned to bluff their way into the Lisbon airport to re-fuel, even though they'd been told long before they left Moscow that they couldn't refuel there and even though (after several rounds of insisting on Lisbon) had filed a new flight plan with refueling in Las Palmas. The u-turn occurs as they started a long flight across the Alps, and it would be natural for air traffic control to instruct a plane, that claimed it might have inadequate fuel, to head back immediately to the nearest airport

[flamingdem]

59. Yes, absolutely agree that they tried to bluff their way. They didn't quite believe the Portugese

and it turned out later there was a strike going on and some other refueling issue, this was known about at least a day before their flight took off.. so yes I think they tried, it would save fuel, time, money.

But the craft was a bit funky perhaps, small tank, so they couldn't be sure about Las Palmas.

I can see a comedy of errors more than a draconian attempt by the USA.

For one thing they have tails on dear Eddie in Moscow.

[struggle4progress]

63. There were multiple strikes in June. I think there was a pilots strike 6 June,

an air traffic controllers strike 25 June, and a general strike 27 June

[flamingdem]

66. The culture as I know it

isn't always direct about information. Things are indirect, as is the language.

They don't say a lo americano Yeah we gotta strike going on here and ya can't land.

Instead they say tenemos problemas tecnicos. We have technical problems.

I would have written my opinion on this earlier but I knew I'd be alerted for "racism" or whatever!

[struggle4progress]

67. Not sure, but I don't think they actually had a strike on 2 July: I think they may have had

a serious operations backlog from earlier strikes

[flamingdem]

76. Portugal is in the clear

Spain is bit more confusing but didn't block them.

[struggle4progress]

86. ... So Spanish government authorization was obtained to stop in the Canary Islands ... At that time

our use of airspace was not restricted. What we could not do was land ... We requested the emergency landing <in Vienna> as a precaution against a possible lack of fuel ... The President meanwhile telephoned the vice president and the chancellor to inform them what was happening ... The ambassador did not specifically mention Snowden. Our president said "Look, sir, we are not carrying anybody, not even Mr. Snowden". That unnerved the Spanish diplomat ... His response was confused ...
Bolivian Defense Minister Saavedra interview regarding FAB 001's Vienna stop
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023192568

The behavior of the Spanish ambassador in Vienna makes sense if Morales was convinced that everyone was determined to harass him regarding the possibility that Snowden was onboard. Then his calls to other top Bolivian officials are likely to have included that accusation, and someone would have contacted Spain to complain. Spain, in turn, would have sorted out where Morales was and would have sent its ambassador to meet Morales in hopes of smoothing the waters. It was the end of the day, and (according to Saavedra's interview) the ambassador told Morales he was exhausted and asked if he might come aboard for some coffee and a chat with the President -- in response to which Morales told the ambassador he wasn't a liar and that he wasn't carrying Snowden. Saavedra says: "... That unnerved the Spanish diplomat ... His response was confused ..." -- which is exactly what one might expect if the diplomat had no idea whatsoever what all this was supposed to be about

[Mojorabbit]

131. This is not my experience

I am half Portuguese and my experience with the culture is that it is very direct.

[morningfog]

100. And they couldn't get there without going through French airspace, which was closed.

Christ this is tedious. WHat is with you and refusing reality?

THis is to help your understanding:



I mean goddamn.

[LondonReign2]

134. This map sucks

I can't even make out the roads around Moscow.

[Hydra]

140. *bwah!*

2 points!

[muriel_volestrangler]

96. They didn't grant permission until they had a written guarantee from the Bolivian foriegn minister

than Snowden was not on the plane. That is being phrased as "they never closed its airspace" - but they didn't grant permission until that note appeared, either. And we don't know when that was - on Wednesday, when the plane had already had to land in Vienna? (I wish reporters would do their job and get these ministers and spokesmen to clarify when various things happened - it's vital to understanding the events).

[struggle4progress]

98. ... So Spanish government authorization was obtained to stop in the Canary Islands ... At that

our use of airspace was not restricted. What we could not do was land ... We requested the emergency landing <in Vienna> as a precaution against a possible lack of fuel ... The President meanwhile telephoned the vice president and the chancellor to inform them what was happening ... The ambassador did not specifically mention Snowden. Our president said "Look, sir, we are not carrying anybody, not even Mr. Snowden". That unnerved the Spanish diplomat ... His response was confused ...
Bolivian Defense Minister Saavedra interview regarding FAB 001's Vienna stop
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023192568

Note that this is the account from the Bolivian Foreign Minister

[JEB]

57. The surveillance state applauders

will probably claim that if only the US had more and better (read more money for privateers) then they would have known that Snowden was not actually on the plane. Diplomatic protocol is merely collateral damge.

[KittyWampus]

60. Funny, as of Tuesday, Garcia-Margall is reported as NOT referring to the origin of info.

Madrid, Jul 9.- The Spanish foreign minister, Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo, stated today that he is willing to apologize to Bolivian president, Evo Morales, whose aircraft was prevented from flying over the airspace of various European countries.

snip
During a press conference organized by the news agency, the Spanish foreign minister insisted on his version, which supports that Spain never revoked the aircraft authorization to fly over Spanish airspace and land on Canary Islands to carry out a refueling stop.

snip
Interviewed by Television Española television station, the foreign minister stated that at the beginning "we were told that the data were clear, that the former CIA agent was in Morales' plane".

He said that the measure taken by European countries regarding the flight of the Bolivian president was a response to the information they received, without referring to the origin, saying that Snowden was inside the plane. (Prensa Latina)

[MannyGoldstein]

61. Oh sure, but other than evidence, confessions, and apologies, you Paulites got *nothing*

Imagine. Bringing up "facts" while Snowden is free to move about, probably vivisecting kittens.

[KittyWampus]

62. I cannot find the full quote from the press conference. Inter alia is a latin term. "Interarea"

is the term ascribed to Garcia-Margallo here:

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/1866744/0/garcia-margallo/disculpas/evo-morales/

So if anyone finds a full quote or transcription of the press conference, it'd be great.

[flamingdem]

65. Yes, that was it. In other words there was a bunch o' stuff said and we got cornfused!

I believe they got a call regarding the extradition request and drew from that the idea that Snowden might even be on that plane. But no matter they didn't block the airspace.

The Spanish complained that the resolution was essentially passed when the meeting of the OAS started, in other words Morales strong armed it and other Latam countries couldn't respond to the facts as presented. They gave solidarity but its harmful to do so when the countries involved say so clearly that it was wrong.

Morales also wanted apologies, he didn't get those.

[KittyWampus]

70. The thread title is patently false at this point.

Spain Says Alert About Morales Plane Reached Madrid From Inside Europe (NOT The USA)

"Asked whether the alert about Snowden’s ostensible presence on Morales’ plane came from the United States, Garcia-Margallo said only that the report reached Madrid from inside Europe."

http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/latino-daily-news/details/spain-apologies-for-diplomatic-misunderstanding-over-bolivias-detoured-pres/25716/

[flamingdem]

75. Good. Some more info is coming out.

But I think that will be added to the Ambassador Eacho story - the US ambassador to Austria, who I believe was just delivering the extradition notice. Maybe he joked: heh, ya think that Snowden guy might be on that there plane?

And thus the narrative developed. Jokes can be dangerous!

[KittyWampus]

78. Whatever, the OP is a wrong.

[Cali_Democrat]

83. Yep. n/t

[frylock]

77. the call came from inside europe? no shit?!

isn't that where the ambassador to Austria is stationed? you know, Austria, which is inside Europe? do you need a map?

[KittyWampus]

79. so you are happy to believe a lie even though I posted several links that prove the OP is bullshit?

And I'd post a pix to a map especially for you but you and your clique are such delicate flowers it'd get alerted on.

[frylock]

81. yes, please post links proving the US ambassador to austria did not make a request..

to delay Morales' plane.

[KittyWampus]

84. WTF? I am responding to the bullshit OP. Garcia-margallo said alert came inside Europe

And that is all I am posting about in this thread. I have posted several links explaining.

So maybe you can now mock Catherina & Morningfog for posting bogus news stories rather than harassing me about maps.

If you want a link to Catherina's hoax thread so you can mock her there, I'll be happy to find it for you.

Spain Says Alert About Morales Plane Reached Madrid From Inside Europe (NOT The USA)

"Asked whether the alert about Snowden’s ostensible presence on Morales’ plane came from the United States, Garcia-Margallo said only that the report reached Madrid from inside Europe."

http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/latino-daily-news/details/spain-apologies-for-diplomatic-misunderstanding-over-bolivias-detoured-pres/25716/

[frylock]

87. is this some kind of jedi mind trick?

the call came from inside Europe, from the US ambassador to Austria who is stationed in..... that's right! EUROPE!

Embassy of the United States, Vienna

The United States Embassy in Vienna is the main United States diplomatic mission to Austria. The embassy building is located at Boltzmanngasse 16, Alsergrund, Vienna.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embassy_of_the_United_States,_Vienna

Austria

Austria, officially the Republic of Austria, is a federal republic and a landlocked country of roughly 8.47 million people in Central Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria

[KittyWampus]

90. Here is your question… which is irrelevant to anything I posted about in this thread

yes, please post links proving the US ambassador to austria did not make a request..

to delay Morales' plane


……………………………………………………...

I AM REFERRING TO TUESDAY'S PRESS CONFERENCE W/GARCIA-MARGALLO.

The OP is erroneous and ascribes a quote to Garcia-Margallo which is incorrect.

The OP posts a Reuters article which (as far as I can tell from the other articles I searched from Tuesday) misquotes Garcia-Margallo as saying the info about Snowden on Morales plane came from the USA.

Now, maybe the other articles from yesterday that I found were wrong. But the ones i found were from Spanish/Spanish speaking sources and furthermore the ONE word in the OP that is used as a "quote" from G-M is inter alia which is NOT EVEN SPANISH. It is a latin term. Another Spanish newspaper uses the term inter area…. which IS spanish and would comport with the news snip where MG_M says the alert came from INSIDE EUROPE and NOT THE USA.

But I explain this in my other posts….

[frylock]

91. the FUCKING US Ambassador to Austria made the FUCKING call from FUCKING inside FUCKING Europe

Austria. Inside Europe. Got it?

[KittyWampus]

92. Hello? The OP is about Garcia-Margallo's press conference. It purports G-M as saying the alert came

from the USA. Are you unable to read the OP title? The body of its text?

I have posted other news sources which indicate G-M said today NOTHING OF THE SORT.

That is all I am posting about… why you feel a need to talk about Austria or post maps of Austria is beyond me.

G-M said nothing about Austria today.

No one has divulged where the rumor started… yet.

[KittyWampus]

93. for the record, if the press conference transcript does end up having G-M saying alert came from USA

I will be very happy to admit I was wrong. At least I TRIED to find the entire quote from G-M and the context.

[muriel_volestrangler]

97. Is this what you've sunk to? Claming that if an American says something while in Europe

then it's not "a US tipoff", and that calling it a 'US tipoff" would be a 'lie'?

I can't believe that you're not embarrassed by that. It's a new low in foolish denial, desperate floundering, and abject refusal to recognise reality.

[morningfog]

99. I am embarrassed for them. More information will come out for them to embarrassingly deny, too.

I can't wait!

[KittyWampus]

117. I just posted multiple Spanish sources which CONTRADICT THE OP. Can't you read?

[muriel_volestrangler]

122. Your Spanish source does not contradict the OP

It is not a direct quote, unlike Reuters, which quotes him as saying "inter alia". A US source speaking in Europe would still be a US source, 'inside Europe'. You are leaping to accusing Reuters of lying, but you don't have evidence of that.

Anyway, "interárea" is not a standard Spanish word - you won't find it in a standard dictionary (it's jargon). 'Inter' means 'among' or 'between', anyway, not 'inside' (that would be 'intra' - as in the difference between 'internet' and 'intranet'). I do not think a Spanish politician would answer the question with a scientific term meaning "between areas". Saying "inter alia", on the other hand, is much more likely as an answer - meaning that the US told Spain Snowden could be on the flight, and so did another source (British? Who knows). It actually makes sense, whereas 'interárea' does not.

I think your source misheard the answer as 'interárea', and tried to explain it as 'inside Europe' (sources which give a quote all agree he didn't mention the word 'Europe', though some do think it was 'interárea').

[KittyWampus]

125. WRONG. I posted the ACTUAL ONE WORD QUOTE IN SPANISH.And MULTIPLE sources contradicting Reuters

And inter alia is LATIN


So you need so desperately to believe this crap go ahead and continue your circlejerk.

I just had an Ecuadorian and Puerto Rican friends confirm the following quote does mean something in spanish. My Puerto Rican friend is a translator btw.

Preguntado si la alerta de que Snowden iba en el avión de Morales provino de Estados Unidos, García-Margallo se ha limitado a responder: "Interárea".


http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/1866744/0/garcia-margallo/disculpas/evo-morales/
………………………………………..

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/inter+alia


……………….
"Asked whether the alert about Snowden’s ostensible presence on Morales’ plane came from the United States, Garcia-Margallo said only that the report reached Madrid from inside Europe."

http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/latino-daily-news/details/spain-apologies-for-diplomatic-misunderstanding-over-bolivias-detoured-pres/25716/

…………………………………………………………...

As of TuesdayGarcia-Margall is reported as NOT referring to the origin of info.

Madrid, Jul 9.- The Spanish foreign minister, Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo, stated today that he is willing to apologize to Bolivian president, Evo Morales, whose aircraft was prevented from flying over the airspace of various European countries.

snip
During a press conference organized by the news agency, the Spanish foreign minister insisted on his version, which supports that Spain never revoked the aircraft authorization to fly over Spanish airspace and land on Canary Islands to carry out a refueling stop.

snip
Interviewed by Television Española television station, the foreign minister stated that at the beginning "we were told that the data were clear, that the former CIA agent was in Morales' plane".

He said that the measure taken by European countries regarding the flight of the Bolivian president was a response to the information they received, without referring to the origin, saying that Snowden was inside the plane. (Prensa Latina)

…………………………………………………………..

[muriel_volestrangler]

128. "Interárea" is not a Spanish word

It is not in Spanish dictionaries - just like 'interarea' is not in English ones. It's jargon, and not what someone would answer "was the tipoff from the US?" with. It doesn't make sense as an answer.

Again, "inter" means "between". If you try to make "interárea" make sense, it means "between areas" - which would have to mean the tipoff was between areas - which does not mean 'inside Europe'. But it's so vague a meaning, and a word that you would not use as an answer in the context, that 'inter alia' looks like the proper answer. Yes, it's Latin - a phrase that many people use, while speaking many languages.

Ask your Spanish-speaking friends if 'interárea' actually makes sense as an answer to the question, and if they think it does, what the meaning they assign to it is.

[LondonReign2]

135. Seriously?

You can't comrephend that if a US Ambassodor is in Europe, and he makes a call, that call came from inside Europe?

Please tell me your just spoofing.

[KittyWampus]

136. Can you please provide a quote where Garcia-Morallo says that the alert came from the USA

Ambassador inside Europe?

Thanks!

[LondonReign2]

138. Can you please tell me this is all due to a bad fuel gauge again?

"Spain says U.S. tipoff led it to query Bolivian flight

Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo was asked by reporters whether the alert had come from the United States. He replied:"Inter alia (among other things)."

He also confirmed the account of Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca, who said on Sunday that Garcia-Margallo had asked Bolivia for a written assurance that Snowden was not on the plane before opening its airspace."

Notice he didn't ask for written confirmation about a fuel gauge, he asked for written confirmation about Snowden before opening its airspace.

France has also apologized for denying the original request.

So Spain is CONFIRMING the US told them Snowden might be on the plane...

Ah, fuck it, I give up. There is are no facts that you will ever consider that might possibly indicate that Obama might be less than perfect. Its like arguing with a Bushie-- facts don't matter.

[Aerows]

111. Cirque du Soliel

has NOTHING on the contortions these deniers work themselves into.

[frylock]

116. they want to parse words and play games with semantics..

if, and or when the jets are scrambled, they'll argue that the order never came from Obama because he didn't personally call the pilots.

[KittyWampus]

121. I post multiple sources PROVING the OP is wrong & you keep the circlejerk going. Here's the info one

more time. Although you prove yourself unwillingly to read or care about the truth.

Alert About Morales Plane Reached Madrid From Inside Europe (NOT The USA) As Per Garcia-Margello


"Asked whether the alert about Snowden’s ostensible presence on Morales’ plane came from the United States, Garcia-Margallo said only that the report reached Madrid from inside Europe."

http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/latino-daily-news/details/spain-apologies-for-diplomatic-misunderstanding-over-bolivias-detoured-pres/25716/

…………………………………………………………...

As of TuesdayGarcia-Margall is reported as NOT referring to the origin of info.

Madrid, Jul 9.- The Spanish foreign minister, Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo, stated today that he is willing to apologize to Bolivian president, Evo Morales, whose aircraft was prevented from flying over the airspace of various European countries.

snip
During a press conference organized by the news agency, the Spanish foreign minister insisted on his version, which supports that Spain never revoked the aircraft authorization to fly over Spanish airspace and land on Canary Islands to carry out a refueling stop.

snip
Interviewed by Television Española television station, the foreign minister stated that at the beginning "we were told that the data were clear, that the former CIA agent was in Morales' plane".

He said that the measure taken by European countries regarding the flight of the Bolivian president was a response to the information they received, without referring to the origin, saying that Snowden was inside the plane. (Prensa Latina)

…………………………………………………………..

Someone posted a article from Reuters purpoting to have Garcia Margallo quoted fully as saying the info came from the USA… the only word of his quote with no context whatsoever is supposedly "inter alia" which is a latin term, not spanish.

In another article I found the word in Spanish as inter aria (inter area) which would be closer to hispanically speaking reports of "inter Europe".

Preguntado si la alerta de que Snowden iba en el avión de Morales provino de Estados Unidos, García-Margallo se ha limitado a responder: "Interárea".


http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/1866744/0/garcia-margallo/disculpas/evo-morales/

[frylock]

123. did a call come through requesting a search of morales' plane for snowden?

yes or no?

[frylock]

139. hullo?

[KittyWampus]

118. You didn't even read the MULTIPLE CONTRADICTING STORIES FROM SPANISH NEWS ARTICLES.

I posted three. All of which directly contradict the assertion in the OP.

FURTHERMORE, my Ecuadorian friend and Puerto Rican friend just confirmed that what he said was - inter-area

Preguntado si la alerta de que Snowden iba en el avión de Morales provino de Estados Unidos, García-Margallo se ha limitado a responder: "Interárea".

[Aerows]

126. The call came from inside Europe.

The US Ambassador in Austria was the one that made the call. In what world does that make a damn bit of difference? If the US Ambassador to Austria made the call from Timbuktu, it still doesn't change the fact that the source of the information was from the US, because it was made by a US official! My God. What is so hard to understand about that?

It's absolutely ludicrous to pretend that because a US official in Europe made a call to someone else in Europe that suddenly the US has nothing to do with it. If your argument is that when not in the US, a US official suddenly is unconnected to the US, then what in the HELL do we have ambassadors for? What do we have embassies for?

Holy shit.

[KittyWampus]

127. the OP is blatantly false… and you nor anyone else in your clique can post any proof

any accurate news report or any full quote to PROVE THE USA WAS THE ORIGIN OF THE ALERT…

You can't even admit the OP is bogus.

You can't even provide anything at all to back up the claim the alert/rumor came from the USA.

What does that say about you?

And I'll repeat one more time- if someone posts the actual transcript in Spanish or news footage of the press conference… I will happily concede the other news sources I posted were incorrect.

I just want to find out the actual truth.

[Aerows]

129. My "clique"?

You mean the people that make a more reasonable argument than "if the call came from Europe to someone in Europe that automatically means the US was not involved, even if it was a US Ambassador in Europe that made the call"? Those people?

If so, yes, that is part of my "clique" - you know, the people that actually realize that a US Ambassador is still a US official no matter where on the planet they are.

Considering that you were the one that posted that spectacularly laughable "map" of Moscow claiming it was the Bolivian plane's flight path, I wouldn't be too thrilled being in the other group. The people that filed in to explain that failure of a post were damn near as funny as the disastrous OP.

[cantbeserious]

105. Thank You For Sharing

eom

[Laelth]

107. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

[malaise]

108. Oh my!

Well we knew this

[Catherina]

112. Oh my, so they admit the undeniable. "Vamos a hablar con nuestro amigos"

The little Spanish Ambassador who could, kept running back and forth for hours, refusing to grant Morales refueling rights, and consulting with "our friends". Everyone in the world knows who "our friends" means, especially Europeans and Latin Americans. It's quite the little nickname for the US.

And Spain was acting all indignant at the OAS meeting yesterday, trying to skate by on the technicality that they didn't close their airspace. LMAO! No, they just kept refused refueling rights for 13+ hours unless Morales agreed to let them inspect his plane. So sure, technically airspace open but with blackmail. What arrogance! What impertinence and disrespect.

And instead of saying we apologize, a simple request for any honest person, yesterday they tried to throw it on that Indigenous (wink, wink) who misunderstood their kind intentions and spurned their cup of coffee. These people kill me! ALL of Latin America remembers Spain's crimes and its arrogance in committing them for over 500 years. As the Bolivians put it, they will NEVER forget this latest insult.

The West isn't just inept and thieving. It's tone deaf. Deliberately so.

"Vamos a hablar con nuestro amigos"

From the RT Espanol Interview with President Morales

What exactly happened with the Spanish Ambassador in Austria?

First France closed their airspace, then Portugal right after that, then finally Italy. We were informed by the control towers. Then Spain let us know that if we wanted to refuel, as planned and cleared before, that they needed to inspect our plane. I said, why do you need to check the plane? … I don't know that North American man (Snowden) or why you think we're carrying him. We're very responsible and respectful of international conventions.

That's when they informed you it was because of Snowden? Directly?

Yes, that's when they told us. “I said to the airport officials, ‘You can’t search the Presidential plane. They said ‘We can’t unless you invite us for a cup of coffee so we can come on the plane’. They wanted me to invite them for coffee inside the plane!" I said "No you can't, you can't come in the plane". If you want to enter by force, you can do so but I'm not inviting you on because this is not legal.

Did they get to inspect the plane?

No, not at all. I was informed that some agents walked around the plane outside.

My first thought was: how can European countries be so submissive to the US? I imagined these nations were big defenders of democracy, big defenders of human rights.” Despite the history of slavery, colonialism, in Spain, France, other countries, and still I had some faith.

http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/view/99364-morales-rt-avion-snowden-entrevista-exclusiva

From the explanation Morales gave to his people:

(Video in Spanish, no subtitles, the quote below is at minute 5:15 where President Morales states what happened after we were told "we could not enter French territory, we were very surprised and decided to make an emergency landing in Vienna Austria&quot

On July 4, President Evo Morales related how Ambassador Alberto Carnero tried to commandeer his plane to check whether the former U.S. agent Edward Snowden was on the flight.

When Morales's plane landed on Austrian soil emergency, "suddenly appears the Spanish Ambassador to Vienna, Austria (Alberto Carnero) with two individuals from the Embassy of Spain. The first (the ambassador) tells me that we need to check the presidential airplane. I replied: 'Why do you need to check?'. (He answers me) "I've been in constant contact with the vice Vice-Chancellor of Spain". I replied that 'I do not know this gentlemen, I heard on the news reports that he is American agent'.

I told him that 'we are very respectful of international conventions, international agreements. Therefore I am not transporting anyone to Bolivia' I replied to his insinuations that I was transporting Snowden. Then, when I said that, he replied "I will go ask my Vice-Chancellor". He gets up, and leaves his little office where we were at the airport in Vienna, Austria. He returned and said, "No, we have an agreement among "Foreign Ministers to check your airplane". I told him that 'his chancellor had never informed me of this'. I said: 'You can NOT check. If you do not believe me, you are telling me that President Evo is a liar'. I said that '(our) presidents do not lie, and you know, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors cosmic law is now constitutionalized: Ama Sua (do not steal), Ama Llulla (do not lie) and Ama Quella (do not be idle), I not going to lie to anyone.'

(Minute 7:45) The ambassador comes back from asking his Vice Chancellor, and repeats, "you have to invite us into your plane to have a cup of coffee, to have a little coffee so we can check". I said, 'You're treating me like a criminal, only criminals can be checked, and I'm no criminal. And you are not going to inspect the Presidential airplane'. I mean, brothers and sisters, in this time, for them to control us, for them to check our plane ... I could not understand the colonialist mentality'. 'We had no defense (resistance) whatsoever, it was just me and the pilots. If you want to check, you can do so but only by force, we can offer no resistance. It's clear, how could we resist a military or police operation, but the only way to do so is to do it by force. He got scared and did not dare to check by force and then told me he's going to call his Vice-Chancellor again. He came back and said "Would you speak with my Vice-Chancellor?". I said 'no I have nothing to discuss with the Vice-Chancellor. If you want, call your president (Mariano Rajoy) and not his Vice-Chancellor'. And then finally he tells me, after speaking with (his Vice-Chancellor) another time, he tells me at 9 in the morning, " I can't tell you yet if you can leave or not, because we need talk to our friends." Who are these friends of Spain? Well, they have the right to speak their friends but I asked 'who are these friends? Portugal? France? Italy?' He did not say anything. I wonder who these *friends* are. Then, at 9 and 30, or 10 in the morning, he returned and said to me, a little worried, scared and nervous 'You are free to go" and stopped insisting to check (the plane).

"If I had accepted the inspection, we would have been out of there in an hour or two after landing, but we would not give pleasure to Spain, even more so to the the United States, to inspect our plane so we could leave quickly. We have dignity, sovereignty and we are proud of our country, of the Patria Grande and we will never submit to these forms of blackmail sisters and brothers.

He then goes on to how President Rafael Correa told the US to take its preferential trade deal and stuff it (cheers). and how Latin America is on the rise while the US is on the decline. They don't need this he says. Then he mentions how the US had the nerve to deliver an extradition request for Edward Snowden after he landed in Bolivia. It's all to intimidate. "Our real sin is to have an indigenous President, and to be anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist. That's our sin sisters and brothers. They can't accept that we can govern better than the neoliberals. They can't understand that. What I understood is that they used their agents to intimidate us, to shut us up, to badger, to chastise Latin America and the Caribbean . They do not want this liberation of the people led by anti-capitalist presidents, governments, parties"

[hrmjustin]

132. Well if this is true then the president should address this now.

[Hydra]

141. He probably should

But once you've picked a bad course it's usually better to stay silent.

That said, the President said he "wouldn't scramble fighter jets" for Snowden. Instead, he just caused an international incident grounding a plane. Quite possible he'll say something that will make his side(The NSA) look worse.