NOW It IS About Snowden.

[sabrina 1]

They made it about Snowden, despite all the efforts to make it about the issues. To most people, it WAS about the issues.

But they insisted, the smears, the lies, the talking points, you can always recognize a talking point by how many times it is repeated.


They failed, they tried the 'ballerina' smear, people laughed.

Then there were the 'boxes in the garage' and people laughed even louder.



Because these smear campaigns are so familiar now.

We know this is going to happen and in fact it was predicted two minutes before it began. Right here on DU airc.

Failure doesn't stop them. It costs big money for these smear campaigns.

Not everyone is paid of course, but they can always count on the freebies. Good business always thinks of the bottom line so the fewer paid operatives the better.

HB Gary's planned smear campaign against Glenn Greenwald which was exposed by Anonymous, forever buried all doubt that this is big business for the Private 'Security' Contractors.

So each day after every failure, they sent out more talking points, and every day they got sillier and sillier.

And then a strange thing happened. Rather than turning people AGAINST Snowden, they turned him into an International hero!

THEY did that. THEY insisted on it in fact!

The whole campaign BACKFIRED!

So now, we ALL want to talk about Snowden, to hear what HE has to say.. And people who might not have bothered before ARE listening, because they made him famous.

And he is impressive, when he speaks for himself, people are saying. Daniel Ellsberg is impressed and he should know, better than anonymous people all saying the same boring things on the internet.

If they had ignored Snowden, the world wouldn't be marching in the streets to protect him.

Foreign nations wouldn't be offering him asylum, no one would be thinking about him.

They PERSONALIZED him. They created an image. Not the one they were trying to create, but one that has caused people all the over the world to root for him.

From Hong Kong:



To Missouri, to Denver, to NYC, to London, to Latin America.

He is DAVID fighting GOLIATH. THAT is what they have done:



Just like we rooted for Salman Rushdie. THEY tried to demonize him, they issued a Fatwa on him. People who would never have heard of him, became protective of him. They wanted to save him!! If they had IGNORED him, no one would have ever read his book, which was terrible anyhow, and no one would have wanted to save him.

So let's keep talking about Snowden. It's working, for HIM.

And people are talking about Snowden, all over the world.

They are asking 'what he do' and and when they do, they learn about the information he is releasing.

So when you can't stop them, USE them. After all they are using our tax dollars to pay for all this so we may as well get some use out of it!

Or you could alwys support this man:



'Snowden is a traitor'

[Savannahmann]

1. If only we could discuss the illegal spying

Instead of the behavior of the people blowing on the whistle we could reach agreement much sooner.

[sabrina 1]

2. WE could, and we will. They cannot stop that, but if they want to make it about Snowden

and they want to try to distract from the conversation people want to have, then I think we should oblige them. And during the process we will find out more and more about the illegal spying, because that is what HE is about.

And it is illegal, no matter how many times they twist themselves into pretzels trying to deny it.

[BehindTheCurtain76]

69. Rep. King looks like he is an evil shrew on NSA payroll

How much you wanna bet the Supreme Court decision to exempt BigPharma for any liability from generic drug side effects (80% of all drugs and #1 killer in the USA) is due to blackmail against some of the conservative Supreme Court justices...whistleblower Russ Tice said almost all the surveillance he was asked to carry out was on US Federal judges to gain leverage on them for corporations bidding.

[sabrina 1]

111. King is the one who said 'we count the votes' meaning I guess, Republicans. They own the voting

machines. What kind of democracy allows Private Corporations of one political party to own the voting machines that decide elections?

He does look like an evil shrew, and the NSA is probably very familiar with him.

Interesting that Tice said that. He said 'Federal Judges' but didn't specify SC Judges did he?

This is why this surveillance garbage has to end.

Welcome to DU btw!

[Fantastic Anarchist]

175. He did specify the Supreme Court (specifically, Alito). nt

[BehindTheCurtain76]

189. Actually Tice did name Supreme Court

Russ Tice did say he personally monitored Supreme Court judges. And I for the life of me don't understand why left leaning organizations aren't making corrupted voting machines their #1 issue.

[KittyWampus]

22. funny, I started a thread yesterday about HOW the FBI/NSA accesses lines. Sank like a stone

Onyx Collie also started one. Sank too.

[Savannahmann]

28. It's much more fun to slam Snowden

Than discuss the illegal and immoral acts of our Government.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

108. What??

A democratic government and illegal and immoral acts you say?? Tutututututututututututututut....

[sabrina 1]

38. Well, that's because THEY made it about Snowden. So if you want to get attention for

something like that, just start with 'Snowden hates puppies, and guess what, they really ARE spying on the American people'. Not puppies, just be clear!

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

109. You're wrong. They're spying on puppes too.

[sabrina 1]

128. I have a puppy. Now you're scaring me!

Maybe they just want to follow me around the internet telling me what great products there are for puppies?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

129. There may be great products for puppies, but at all costs "they" will deny any

existence of such products.

[sabrina 1]

132. You're not suggesting that they would be selling our data to Big Corps, and whoever else wants

it, rather than using it to catch terrorists are you? That would be scandal of major proportions and our government would never lie to us about the billions of dollars they spend on 'security'.

Lol!

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

134. No, they would never lie to us...

[sabrina 1]

139. Phew, that's what I thought!

[dreamnightwind]

61. Post the links here

so more people will find them. I, for one,, missed those posts.

[JDPriestly]

84. Could you please provide a link?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

107. Would you mind sending me that link?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

106. It is so curious that there is a movement to do just that on a "Democratic" message board.

Curious indeed.

But I guess that we should all watch what we say.

[backscatter712]

155. They've made that inevitable.

They tried to demonize him and toss him in the dustbin of history, but instead, they kept the story alive, and now you can't say the word Snowden without "NSA" also popping into people's heads.

The McCarthyists tried to bury him, instead they turned him into a symbol of resistance to tyranny.

Keep talking about Snowden - that will guarantee that people talk about the NSA's illegal spying.

[Lonr]

3. Message for the NSA:

The 4th Amendment to the US Constitution:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[reformist2]

4. Good point. They will have to redirect and expand their smears toward the public now.

They'll throw John Q. Public on the couch, saying that there must be something wrong with the a person who still supports someone like Snowden even after all the "evidence" that has come out against him.

[sabrina 1]

5. And the more they do that, the more desperate they look and the more we wonder 'what are they

so desperate to hide from us? If it's 'all legal' as they claim then they have nothing to worry about.

If it's all 'old news' which they say, another talking point, then there's no problem because everyone knows it all anyhow, and all Snowden did was to repeat what we all know.

There is no logic to the desperate proclamations which is why normal, intelligent people aren't buying it.

[bvar22]

73. There is a NEW one surfacing.

[font size=3]"FDR was MUCH WORSE,
so its not fair to question or criticize President Obama's Constitutional Excesses today."[/font]

Hey. It doesn't have to make ANY sense.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

81. That's only calling out your side's hypocrisy

Bashing Obama while worshiping FDR.

Though you are right. That kind of absurdity doesn't have to make ANY sense.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[bvar22]

90. Again, we are talking about POLICY,

and NOBODY at DU has EVER tried to defend the Japanese Internment.
It is roundly and Universally condemned as the LOW Point of his Presidency.
It would be HYPOCRITICAL to ask someone to exclude the Constitutional Excesses of the Obama Administration that we ALL condemn about the FDR administration.

What you are asking is completely absurd.
That is an amazing TWIST of logic.

If it was WRONG for FDR,
then it is WRONG for President Obama.

The very FACT that you guys are clutching at a comparison with the Constitutional Excesses of the FDR Administration as a Point of Comparison means that you ALL agree that Obama IS Exceeding his Constitutional Authority.

If ANYTHING, we ALL should have LEARNED from the FDR Administration to NOT overlook Presidential Overreach,
and NOT make the same goddamed mistakes all over again.

Got It?

[merrily]

101. Consistent principles? How rigid can you be?

You have to be like a palm tree. Bend and sway with the winds.

[sabrina 1]

136. Be more specific because when election season rolls around as it always does, we will be

told about 'Democratic Party Values'. I know why I am a Democrat and I know the difference between right and wrong.

I am not sure if you are suggesting that sometimes things are 'right', such as torture eg, and sometimes things are wrong such as 'torture' eg. And if you are suggesting that on issues like this we should be willing to 'Bend and sway with the winds'.

So on which Democratic principles should we NOT remain 'strong as the might Oak Tree, but rather 'bend and sway with the winds' like the Palm Tree.

[merrily]

137. Sorry. I was being sarcastic. I thought it would be obvious, so I didn't

bother with the emote.

There is no such thing as principles that bend and sway with the wind.


You either have consistent principles, you are simply a fan club, like 10 year olds with Justin Bieber a few years ago. Except that they're probably growing out of it.

[sabrina 1]

138. Lol, I wondered if you were serious or not, but you never know these days on Du so

thought I'd ask. So sorry for not getting it!

[ConservativeDemocrat]

160. It's not POLICY hen you call Obama a NAZI, a "Corporatist", an "Authorarian"

Even if I granted your idea that the FISA court system set up under Jimmy Carter was unconstitutional (which it is not), you are not disagreeing with Obama's POLICY. You hate him.

And posts doing everything but call Obama the N- word, while at the same time signed with pictures of FDR as if he was some sort of saint, clearly shows exactly where you are coming from.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[bvar22]

177. Hey, Proud member of the Reality Community....

If You are going to imply that I have called President Obama a "NAZI",
or claim that I have a Racial Bias against President Obama,
you WILL have to document your claim by posting a link.
Because what you claim is an absolute figment of your tortured imagination.

If you can NOT post a link documenting your claims,
that will be a public admission that you[font size=3] ARE JUST MAKING STUFF UP[/font] and flinging poo around your cage in an irrational fit of Butt Hurt .

You have gone from making very little sense to No Sense at ALL,
and posting substance less and merit less attacks because....

Because WHY?
That is what I don't understand.
Does inventing fantasies like you posted above make you feel better in some bizarre way?

Most people who actually live in the Reality Based Community,
don't feel the need to publicly claim that they do.
In fact, to do so wouldn't even occur to someone who actually lives in the Reality Based Community.

After your fit of disturbing fantasy you posted above,
I can see WHY you feel the need to add that in your sig line,
because most people would conclude the opposite from what you post here.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

182. You know as well as I do that "calling out" other posts is against DU rules

...which puts a crimp in your request.

Further that actually saying something explicitly racist would be clearly out of bounds. Hell, even in the deep rural south, you don't get many people to actually admit to that. You just have to judge them by their obvious double standards.

Seriously guy, if you are so stuck in your own denial of maybe this can help. Or this.

Now compare it to this. Oh wait! There's nothing on topic! Just scattered words.

Sure, I'll accept a different explanation for the difference than the obvious one - if someone from the apologist camp for this behavior can come up with one that passes the smell test. Until then though, I'll be happy to assume you're just rationalizing, like all my hard-right GOP neighbors do.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[bvar22]

185. So you GOT NOTHING.

When YOU make accusations of Racism, or calling the president a "NAZI", or the other complete fabrications you just pulled out of your ***,
YOU had better have the links and quotes to back up your accusations.



I take this seriously.
You SHOULD take it seriously.
Our Community at DU should take it seriously too.

[font size=4]It is NOT OK to just Make Stuff Up and then use it to attack another member of DU.

[/font]

I absolutely DENY that I have done ANY of the things you claim.
If YOU have any integrity at all,
you will post links to your sources supporting YOUR vile, slanderous, and FALSE accusations,
or post a retraction and an apology.

[font size=4]I AM Calling YOU out.
Put Up,
or Shut Up.[/font]




You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[ConservativeDemocrat]

186. The "you" in that context was clearly not intended to be personal to "bvar22"

It is called, in Grammar, the Generic You, and was clearly in response to your "We".

To quote the immortal Samuel L. Jackson: "English, motherfucker. Do you speak it?"

Although you, bvar, have called Obama "a willing tool of the Ownership Class", a "Corporatist", a "Corporatist evil", "half-Republican", implied that ProSense was a paid shill, I will say, having gone personally back over your record, that you have not called Obama a NAZI or Brownshirt. (Thank heaven for small favors.) So that generic "you" part of my comment is intended for others of your side's "we" that do these things.

I also must say, now that I look at your record, that you are indeed an equal opportunity hater. You appear to hate all other Democratic Presidents and candidates as well, except for FDR every once in a while, and maybe Kucinich and Wellstone (though I'm sure if I dig far enough, I'd likely find hatred there as well). So I really cannot say that you personally seem to be attacking Obama in a way that is terribly out of step with the way you hate everyone else.

You do, however, agree with Republicans calling for Eric Holder to resign over fast-and-furious (even though most of that was approved before he was in office) - yet at the same time call people who ever agree with Republican ever to be unacceptable as Democrats, bashing Obama over that. But I'll put that down as just garden variety hypocrisy, not as the kind of people who had no problem with every other President until Obama.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

/ I believe I'm still within the lines of what is acceptable according to D.U. policy, especially since a response was demanded

[bvar22]

187. When responding to a specific individual...

...as in "Response to bvar22" in a sub-thread addressing specific content in the particular post of a specific individual,
the "YOU" is NEVER Generic. It is specific and targeted,
and THAT is basic English Grammar.


If your intent is "Generic", use the 3rd Person ( "they" or "them&quot and not "You" in a direct response to an individual.

I'll make it easy for you:
When anyone responds to a specific individual with this:
"Are YOU talking to ME"?
there is NO doubt about the
"you" that person is addressing.

If the individual is speaking generically,
they say,
"Were THEY talking to me?,
again, there is NO doubt about the persons being referenced.

At least you are honest about Who and What you are,
and in the tradition of great Conservatives everywhere like the Swiftboaters, Brietbart, and The Birthers, you have no personal moral prohibitions about simply [font size=3]Making Stuff Up and using it to attack Loyal Democrats[/font]
AND, when you are called out, start dodging, equivocating, hiding, and squealing "Thats not what I meant.

[font]"I will say, having gone personally back over your record, that you have not called Obama a NAZI or Brownshirt."---ConservativeDemocrat, post #186[/font]

I will accept that as a retraction, though if you have any integrity at all, you will go amend your post, and change the improper use of the pronoun "You" to the 3rd person generic, "they", or "them".


But NO. You couldn't stop with a simple retraction for your mistakes,
you run blindly ahead with more Unsubstantiated Fantasy about me being an "Obama hater".
[font size=3]It is NOT "hate" to expect the very best representation for the Working Class from our elected Democrats,
and to call them out when they fall short of the Traditional Democratic Party Values that made our Party GREAT. That is not "hate", but True LOVE,[/font]
and I do LOVE the Democratic Party, and THAT is also documented in the archives at DU.

I absolutely DENY that I am a "hater".
Do you really believe that labeling an elected official a "Corporatist" can be classified as "Hate Speech"?
LOL...(And you call yourself a member of the Reality Based Community.)

I resent that YOU or ANY legitimate member of DU would use that vile, slanderous, disgusting, Hate Language language to attack me, or any other Democrat on DU.
I AM one of the Democratic Party's hardest working activists,
and am doing everything I can to SAVE the Party, not hurt it.
I am PROUD of my STAND for the traditional Democratic party Values that built the largest, wealthiest, and most Upwardly Mobile Working Class the World has ever seen.
THAT is also documented in the archives at DU with text and photographs.

The words you have quoted above are FAR from a documentation of "hate",
but are words of disappointment and political difference ON ISSUES.

YOU are the one using unfounded, unsupported, emotionally charged Hate Language in personal attacks on loyal Democrats.
The claims you are making are vile, slanderous, ignorant, and completely untrue.
It is not an "opinion" to outright call someone a "hater".
It IS a direct personal attack.
[font size=3 color=firebrick]

[font size=4]It is NOT OK to just Make Stuff Up and then use it to attack another member of DU.

[/font][/font]

I take this seriously.
You SHOULD take it seriously.
Our Community at DU should take it seriously too.


I CHALLENGE YOU to find a singe post of mine where I have attacked President Obama or his family personally, or used emotionally charged "hate" language against HIM or ANY elected Democrat (or Republican for that matter).
You will be unable to do so, and you KNOW it,
so have been forced into re-committing the SAME offense that you did above.



In the very Conservative, very Rural, very Backward, area of the Old South where my wife & I moved in 2006,
doing something like this...

...IS putting your life and property at risk.
---bvar22 & Starkraven
turning the South Blue one voter at a time.

Yes, that IS our home, and that is also documented on DU,
and I'll BET that My Wife & I convinced a much greater percentage of lifelong Republicans in our rural precinct to change their vote and give the Democrats a chance in 2008
than YOU have in your entire life.


[font size=4]I AM Calling YOU out for attacking good, loyal Democrats with disgusting, vile, fabricated, Hate Language.
[/font]
YOU have "Hated On" more Democrats in the last couple of days
than I have in 12 years at DU.

WORD!

[merrily]

100. Shhh. You'll wake the ponies.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

110. I don't worship any president. I pity those that feel the need to.

[sabrina 1]

135. And there it is again, the personalization of issues, 'your hero' v 'our hero'.

Speak for yourself and the small contingency that makes heroes out of members of their 'team'. That is NOT democrats, at least none that I know.

WE didn't turn Snowden into an International Political Figure, 'your side' did that, all by yourselves. The more you avoided the issues revealed and slammed the messenger, the more you elevated him to International Status.

We said over and over again 'it is not about him it is about this country'.

YOU made him a hero, if that is what he has become. WE didn't do that.

But since you have, we will now use him to get attention for what is really important, issues that will affect the lives of Americans for generations to come.

'There is a tide in the affairs of men which taken at the flood leads on to greatness'

You could address the issues, the Surveillance State, the Private Security Corporations who are being paid billions to 'collect and store our data', why this is happening and what we can do about it. THIS is what WE wanted to talk about and we will. And the 'hero' you all created can now be used to help do that.

[zeemike]

85. Yep I saw that one emerge too.

Now that is a show of desperation If their ever was one...and funny, to make Obama greater than FDR.
The accomplishments of FDR for the American people were enormous

[merrily]

99. Do you have any idea how hard it is to fit a wheelchair under a bus?

[bvar22]

158. OK... Made me laugh.

"Do you have any idea how hard it is to fit a wheelchair under a bus?"

That gave me a terrible "visual" of the Angry Lynch Mob desperately trying to cram FDR under the bus, wheelchair and all.
Unfortunately, that IS an appropriate metaphor for what that small minority of "Democrats" are trying to do around here.

I used to hear vile slurs against FDR from places like Limbaugh and Right Wing Hate Sites,
but I never expected to see them unfurled as a Parade Banner on Democratic Underground.
How can ANYBODY possible believe that repeating that slime here somehow HELPS President Obama?




You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS,[/font]
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.

[font size=5 color=firebrick]Solidarity![/font]

[sabrina 1]

131. I've seen that one. And Ellsberg too. I can't keep up with the Liberals who have been trashed

lately. It's instructive to see the true colors emerging though. It's like a sieve, now we are able to identify what was clogging the work of Progressives, and that is a good thing as we 'move forward'.

[cantbeserious]

6. Thank You For Sharing

eom

[michigandem58]

7. More Americans support prosecuting Snowden

than not.

[BB1]

8. Still doesn't make illegal spying legal. n/t

[sabrina 1]

9. More Germans supported prosecuting their Whistle Blowers also, they were wrong. They fell

for the propaganda.

No poll here means anything since most Americans get their information from Corporate media and as a result are not informed enough about anything to be able to make any judgements on important matters which is how it is supposed to be.

But do a poll on Europeans on this and see what happens.

I am actually impressed, considering what I said above, that so many actually oppose it.

I might answer 'yes' to 'should he be prosecuted'. Why? Even though I completely agree with what he did, he knew and I know he did have to break the law to do so.

[Demeter]

12. Remember, Everything That Hitler Did Was "Legal"

--Martin Luther King, Jr. who must be spinning in his grave at the irony of it all.

[Progressive dog]

14. Can't leave the German stuff alone

Maybe I'm wrong in what you're trying to imply without saying. Could you give us some names of German whistle-blowers that you're talking about?
BTW As an American, I don't think it's necessary to poll the world on American law enforcement.

[GoneFishin]

16. Polling the "world" is not the point. Polling an informed populace is.

The U.S. media is self-censored.

And the manipulation of the German people by a power mongering government is relevant.

If it is uncomfortable to think that "we" are actually not so different from "them", then that is unfortunate.

[Progressive dog]

18. Where are the German Whistle blowers?

If you can't give names at least put the whistle blowing within a few years.
At least tell me which "power mongering government" of Germany.

BTW If you want to claim to being like "them", I feel sorry for you, but it's only a presumption on your part that others are not different from you.

to think that "we" are actually not so different from "them"

[sabrina 1]

56. What makes you think anyone is different from them? The point of the lessons that were

supposed to have been learned, but there seems to be huge resistance to doing so, from what happened in Germany is how unlikely it would have been to have thought it would have happened there in the first place.

Our FFs long before Germany, warned about never trusting any Government with too much power, I believe Jefferson even added 'even us'. Why would they warn about such a thing, because they were aware of human nature.

What happened in Germany CAN happen, anywhere because human nature is pretty much the same everywhere. There are good people everywhere and their are those who crave power and money everywhere.

The system of government we choose to live under RECOGNIZES that and has safeguards within it to try to prevent it.

But that is up to the people. When the people allow fear to persuade them to throw away their rights, they are sowing the same seeds that are always a requirement, Germany being one of the most recent historical example of this, to create a Totalitarian State.

To avoid that the people must sound the alarm when they see any signs of fear-mongering resulting in compromises regarding freedoms.

When someone asks you to give up some freedoms in order to be safe, you antennae should naturally go on alert.

I think we have allowed it to go too far in this country already, 9/11 being used constantly as the fear factor.

[Progressive dog]

65. I don't think that we are different, I know it

Germany had a brief interlude between a dictatorship of the Kaiser and the landed aristocracy and a dictatorship of the National Socialists. The USA has had 200+ dictator free years.

Totalitarian states have been the rule, not the exception for a long time. The USA shed that yoke a long time ago.
Don't compare our people to the German people between the wars, there is no similarity in our cultures.

[sabrina 1]

77. We ARE different in some ways, smarter maybe in that we keep up appearances while

SUPPORTing dictators rather than democratically elected leaders. See the ME and Latin America eg. They do the dirty work for us. Eg, we are allies with Bahrain, Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia right now, among others.

Democracies do not encourage death squads and dictators nor do they reward them with money and arms.

The ONLY reason why we haven't become a dictatorship here is because of the constant efforts, the fight which is happening right now, against it.

Ask the Egyptian people what our support for their dictator, Mubarak did to their lives. Of course you think only we here matter, then you won't care about the decades long suffering of the people in the countries where we killed, or backed the killers of, people, innocent people, all over the world.

[sabrina 1]

42. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Never forget, it is one of the more recent

historical examples of how people can be controlled by fear and should NOT be forgotten.

The attempt to MAKE people forget is interesting though.

A little more recent example is East Germany.

[Progressive dog]

165. People who have history paranoia

are likely to live lives of fear.

[rhett o rick]

70. I get the impression you dont like whistle-blowers. And what's your definition of "progressive"? nm

[Progressive dog]

170. If whistle blowers steal US classified material,

flee to avoid prosecution, selectively leak material with the intent of harming the USA's foreign policy then no I don't like that kind of a whistle blower.

[rhett o rick]

171. So you believe the state is always right? Never a time to challenge the authoritarian state?

You understand that the state classifies material, in some cases, to maintain secrecy from the public and not for security reasons? Do you consider yourself "progressive"?

[JDPriestly]

86. A lot of the Germans who blew the whistle died because they did it.

Read They Thought They Were Free.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

A lot of Americans think the NAZIs were just anti-Jewish and that what they were and perpetrated in Germany is of no concern to them. But actually the NAZI indoctrination was so steady and so strong that it corrupted the entire society. Everyone sat around their radios hanging on the every word of Der Fuhrer. A friend who was a child there during WWII told me that the day after the allies won in Europe, all that stopped and the adults around him celebrated saying, he is finally gone that *&^%$. But they did not dare express themselves during the war.

We are headed in that direction.

We cannot claim to be free if our government is analyzing our phone bills and our e-mail lists and the addresses on our mail plus checking us in and out at the airport.

What are we free to do? Walk to the park once in a while? Buy imported junk made in China and Bangla Desh?

Everything you do is under surveillance.

Your bank account, your phone calls, your medical records, your credit card bills (listing the details of what you buy to eat). You have no privacy whatsoever, and when you have no privacy, you have no freedom.

Coming soon: drones with infrared that can expose what you are doing in your bedroom at night.

I assume that is not available or in use yet, but at the rate our government is going, it's just a matter of time.

I think that Snowden went public after reviewing my e-mail list. It's full of politicians sending me requests for money. That is pretty sickening. I can understand why he decided to expose the waste in spending so much money on this ridiculous surveillance.

[Progressive dog]

167. Oh my, I am so afraid

BTW They already have infrared sensors on drones, so what you have to do is have ice on hand and bury yourself in it whenever you hear an airplane. The insulation in your attic won't stop the infrared. (this infrrared is special)

[JDPriestly]

168. I lived in German-speaking countries.

It isn't history paranoia for me. I know lots of people who lived through the NAZI era. It is a very real threat. Not a joke.

[Progressive dog]

169. I think the fearmongers are a much

greater threat to our civil rights than the Nazis.
You lived in German speaking countries, so the Nazis are coming to the USA---and you say it's not paranoia. LOL

[JDPriestly]

172. I see a lot of the same trends in the US now that were present in Germany in the 1930s.

I lived not far from the watchtowers on the border between East and West Europe.

Our paranoia about immigration is an excuse to put up the equivalent of towers here. Our Homeland Security -- checks you on the way out, not on the way in. That is a bad sign.

Plus, now we learn about the surveillance. The East German STASI dreamed of the kind of surveillance that our government does on every American with a phone or a computer or a cell.

We have gone right up to the edge.

It's not paranoia. It is reality.

The secrecy of the FISA court would be fine were it exercised only to issue warrants or subpoenas in specific cases based on specific probably cause. But our FISA court is issuing blanket orders to electronic communications companies. We saw one of the orders. There is no denying this reality.

Paranoia /ˌpærəˈnɔɪə/ (adjective: paranoid /ˈpærənɔɪd/) is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself. (e.g. "Everyone is out to get me.&quot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia

I am not talking about delusions. I am not spouting irrational thoughts. I am looking at the reality of what our government is doing at our borders, in our airports and with regard to our communications. I am not the paranoid one. The folks in D.C. who put these programs in place are the irrational ones, the people with paranoia.

There are better ways to identify the criminals or terrorists among us than spending millions to set up an electronic eavesdropping system.

As I pointed out yesterday, I personally think that Snowden went to Hong Kong and has told what he know after reading my e-mail account. Mixed with a few e-mails from family and friends, often forwarding news items, I get a couple of e-mails from gardening and knitting companies and then, thousands of e-mails from politicians asking for campaign donations. It's enough to make anyone sick and tired of it all.

So we are spending millions and millions and hiring thousands of people primarily to collect and review the trivia of our lives. This system was set up in order to find that needle in the haystack -- a terrorist. It is the least sensible way to go about this.

Meanwhile we know what the real dangers are in America -- the environmental disaster that awaits us, the Sandy Hook crazy guys, and the Boston bombers who plot their crimes totally out of the reach of our ever present surveillance and police state.

[Progressive dog]

176. "Our paranoia is an excuse"

Speak for yourself, I don't think anyone is coming for me. I don't even believe we have a "surveillance and police state".

If you believe this stuff makes a police state, I would have to say that you are paranoid.

I am not talking about delusions. I am not spouting irrational thoughts. I am looking at the reality of what our government is doing at our borders, in our airports and with regard to our communications. I am not the paranoid one. The folks in D.C. who put these programs in place are the irrational ones, the people with paranoia.

[JDPriestly]

178. Would you agree that Eastern Europe during the Soviet period were paranoid states?

I traveled in some of them and knew refugees from some of them, and I think so.

Excessive surveillance and checking passports as people LEAVE the country are indications of a paranoid state.

[Progressive dog]

179. Of course they were not paranoid states nt

[JDPriestly]

180. Were you ever in one?

[Progressive dog]

181. Oh expertise by being there

No I wasn't. You might want to see what paranoid means before you continue this BS. I like this smiley better.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

113. Die Weiße Rose or the White Rose.

[Blanks]

51. That's kind of an interesting factoid...

The statement that "more Germans supported prosecuting their whistleblowers".

I remember recently reading interesting 'facts' (let's just call them) about how the Nazis took the guns away from their citizens and that's how they were able to commit the atrocities that they did. Interestingly, that story was made up.

Do you have a link to support this new statistical assertion? it sounds similarly fabricated.

[sabrina 1]

148. Do you know what the Nazis did to those who dared to speak out against them?

Ever hear of the White Rose Society eg? By then of course it was too late. Had the German people spoken out early on the horrors might have been averted. But they didn't. At least very few of them did.

[Blanks]

173. Look back at your claim.

"more Germans supported prosecuting their whistleblowers".

What I know, or don't know are immaterial. I know quite a bit about Germany (having spent 3 years there and being of German descent). I know a bit about the two world wars having taken a couple of history classes in college. Still, my knowledge has nothing to do with your claim.

I'm not saying that what you are claiming isn't true. It isn't really consistent with my experience with Germans, but that doesn't mean it's false either.

I don't need a history lesson, just provide a link showing where you came up with that statistic, and I will drop it.

[Waiting For Everyman]

24. Nope. 55% say he's a whistleblower, not a traitor.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023214807

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Every authoritarian state

Makes what they do legal under color of law. And also make sure people get that through a massive propaganda apparatus. You should do some reading...they still allow that.

[Maedhros]

62. These people who mock us for being concerned about NSA surveillance

also wholeheartedly support the President's power to execute U.S. citizens anywhere in the world with no due process and no oversight.

Once someone grants the President the power to do that, what power could they possibly object to?

[rhett o rick]

74. These people choose submission to authority. When you challenge their authority figure or state,

they cant deal with it. Not being open-minded they must attack whomever is challenging their denial state. They dont like whistle-blowers, investigative journalists, conspiracy theories, or protestors like Occupy. They like their nice comfortable status quo.

[Civilization2]

94. Says who? Where pray tell did you pull this "fact"? ? ?

We will actually see in the near term what comes from all this,.

[Demeter]

10. It takes a "Constitutional Scholar", and 5 "Strict Constructionists" Supreme Court Justices

to destroy the best government on the planet....

I hope We the People can rebuild our government and correct the path of history.

[davidpdx]

145. Actually it is one Supreme Court Justice

and that is Chief Justice Roberts who appoints the FISA judges of which 11 of the 12 are conservatives. The fact that we have had a conservative Chief Justice for 60 years is not good.

[xchrom]

11. Du rec. Nt

[another_liberal]

13. Excellent post!

Thank you especially for that photo of King.

[byeya]

15. Wonderful essay and photos - Many thanks!

[HipChick]

17. Snowden Worship?

Compared to Salman Rushdie? DU has sunk to a new low..

[JoePhilly]

19. Its not about Snowden except when it is about Snowden.

And the Snowden fans will inform you as to when the pendulum swings on this fascinating Snowden / not Snowden debate.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

114. I haven't met a Snowden fan here yet. I have met and read several individuals

who don't like being spied upon in a Democracy.

[JoePhilly]

151. Then you aren't paying attention.

There have been any number of OP's explaining how this is, and then is not, about Snowden.

And they explain how Snowden is both a hero, and irrelevant, and then a hero again ... depending on the day of the week.

Some days, this place should be renamed SnowdenUnderground.

As for the use of the word spying in this discussion ... that's the word some started to use after it became clear that mining meta data isn't actually wiretapping.

Much easier to generate outrage by using a broader, and far more inaccurate, term.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

188. It's much easier to denigrate outrage by using a broad-brush attack

and attempting to kill the messenger when it is really about the message.

[sabrina 1]

130. And the Surveillance State is still the issue, no matter how much effort is put into trying to

cover it up.

I wonder when the next Whistle Blower will emerge? Warning us again of 'how they are using the law' as Sen Ron Wyden has stated.

Btw, how do you like living in a country where all your personal data is being 'collected and stored'?

You haven't said!

[JoePhilly]

152. Actually I have said, in other threads, on this facinating topic.

In fact, I think I've responded to other OPs and posts that you have written on exactly that topic.

In summary ...

Some seem to be confused by the reality that some of the data is truly theirs, and some is not.

Social Security number is yours. Phone number is not. Content of the call is yours. Routing information is not. I could go on.

FISA court has been in existence for over 30 years. Some are now surprised by its existence. Bush wiretapped people by bypassing that court. Obama has not.

The chief justice of the supreme court has always appointed the judges.

The mining of meta data of all kinds is very common. Telecos use the data to manage and maintain their networks. City planners use similar data about automobile traffic to determine which roads to build, repair, and widen. Its also very useful for investigations after a crime is committed. Not really any different than examining bank records. Also not different from how the government monitors transfers of money above certain amounts to identify crimes in which money laundering occur.

What has been missing for a long time in all of this is greater transparency. Congress has known this, and that includes the Democratic senators you mention. So why bring it up now? Because its after the election to Obama's second term. You can actually have this debate now and have it not inadvertantly lead to a Romney Presidency.

We do not live in a police state or under a totalitarian government. That entire line of debate is silly nonsense.

Network admins have the ability to see much of your data in much the same way that your doctor knows a great deal about you. Each is expected to only use that information "for you" and not to leverage it for other uses. To do so is both unethical, and almost always illegal.

That's a short version.

[sabrina 1]

44. What's the difference? Both offended their governments, both were pursued by their governments

and both ended up as International political figures who sought asylum to avoid the expected extreme punishment of their governments.

Did you call Rushdie a coward? Why didn't he stay and face the consequences of his actions?

Same result from governments that choose to ignore the crimes revealed and go after the messenger.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

59. What "extreme punishment" are you referring to (re: Snowden)?

Anybody threatened Snowden with a drone strike? Anybody threaten to torture him? Anybody issue a fatwah against him? All I see are the filing of criminal charges against him for (allegedly) breaking the law. Try with another analogy, please.

[Maedhros]

64. If Snowden were facing the threat of a drone strike

we, and he, would never know about it.

Anwar al-Awlaki's father went to Federal court to seek an injunction against the U.S. government, preventing it from targeting al-Awlaki with lethal force. The court would not hear the case because the government's drone program is top secret and thus al-Awlaki had no standing - it could not be proven that he was targeted by the program.

Shortly thereafter al-Awlaki was killed by a drone strike.

I'd bet that there is a contingency plan to splash Snowden has already been drawn up.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

68. I don't think the analogy is good

Al-Awlaki was living in a remote part of the world organizing terrorism against the US. Snowden is definitely in trouble for what he has (allegedly) done but I doubt that the government is going to kill him over it- and it's not like it would've been that hard for a special forces team to get him in a Russian airport if they really wanted him to. It must be a pretty scary place in your head to live in where it is even likely or probable that our government, particularly under President Obama, would resort to such extreme measures with Snowden. With that sort of thinking, I'm not sure where it would end.

[sabrina 1]

154. And then there was Awlaki's 16 yr old son, droned to death on his way to a party.

People die in mysterious ways. I'm sure Snowden knew the risks he was taking.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

115. The analogy fit pretty well, and hit close to the bone from the sound of it.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

117. "hit close to the bone from the sound of it"

Huh? What the heck does THAT mean?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

119. Look it up on the internets.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

120. I know what the expression means

I am wondering why you are using it.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

122. Perhaps you need to meditate on it until you are enlightened?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

125. So

you believe that the government (and/or myself) support killing Snowden or something.......?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

127. You have not yet reached enlightenment. Please continue, Proud Liberal Dem.

[sabrina 1]

133. See Bradley Manning. Tortured, kept in solitary confinement until the UN and State Dept

member Crowley spoke out against his treatment. From now on, most Whistle Blowers will probably be seeking asylum elsewhere until this country restores the rule of law. Any country that tortures its detainees and especially its Whistle Blowers historically produces political refugees.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

157. It sounds like he was mentally unstable and being kept under suicide/prevention of injury watch

for a period of time. Torture???

[sabrina 1]

162. That lie, told to try to cover the treatment when it received world wide comdemnation,

has been debunked over and over again.

There is no doubt that Manning was tortured under the guidelines of the Geneva Conventions and it's really pointless to deny it at this point. He was move away from what had become known as one of our latest gulags AFTER the outrage and the statement by State Dept official Crowley, that they received.

Of course we don't prosecute torturers in America. We give a lot of lip service to how humanitarian we are and try to lecture others on human rights abuses, something no one pays attention to any more, so the Manning torturers, like all of our torturers will never be punished.

[Zorra]

20. Looks like you kicked the hive again, sabrina 1.

[ProSense]

21. Actually,

"NOW It IS About Snowden."

...despite the denials, it always was.

Snowden: I never gave any information to Chinese or Russian governments
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023215155

[chimpymustgo]

23. Actually, I'll side with Snowden over traitor Peter King. It's still about SPYING and LYING.

Elementary.

[Waiting For Everyman]

27. If credibility is based on a person's background, as you insist,

maybe we should hold you to that standard too, and dissect your entire past before anything you have to say.

( )

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

116. Strangely enough, PS wrote the following once.

"Obama is a republican. If you're given the choice between a republican and someone who acts like a Republican, vote for the real Republican.

Any Real Republican 2012!"


Written on Sunday, April 10-11, 10:40 AM.


That's verbatim.



Hmmmm... credibility.....

[NuclearDem]

32. Oh dear, the delicious irony

I'm eating it up over here.

[sabrina 1]

37. Yes, I forgot about that one, that he gave secrets to the Chinese etc. Without a shred of

evidence. So I went to see what he said about it, and guess what? He denied it and most people, other than those who are dependent on the Corporate media here, believe him.

[ProSense]

39. I suppose

"Yes, I forgot about that one, that he gave secrets to the Chinese etc. Without a shred of
evidence. So I went to see what he said about it, and guess what? He denied it and most people, other than those who are dependent on the Corporate media here, believe him. "

...he's that naive: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023216224#post11

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023216224#post18

[sabrina 1]

47. The Chinese are spying on everyone also and most likely knew all of this anyhow..

The problem is that technology outpaced the laws we have in place, unethical people were bound to take advantage of that, they always have.

Now that they are all exposed for the abuse of technology, now they are all AFFECTED by it, my prediction is there will be International laws passed, and our domestic laws will eventually be strengthened rather than weakened as they were with the FISA Amendment.

It's just another one of those dark periods in history that requires exposure before it can be fixed. THAT is the value of Whistle Blowers, they take the risks most of us would not have the courage to do.

[Maedhros]

66. If you can't trust two unnamed sources from U.S. spy agencies

who can you trust?

[sabrina 1]

153. Lol! I don't know, Snowden maybe?

[Apophis]

45. Good grief.

[L0oniX]

126. Pathetic ain't it. n/t

[whatchamacallit]

25. K&R! :)

[idwiyo]

26. K&R

[woo me with science]

29. Beautiful thread.

Thank you.

[JaneyVee]

30. What's with the boxes thing? Never heard of that.

[Hydra]

33. "He has boxes in his garage!"

Was almost as headscratching as when they were trying to make out his girlfriend as a pole dancer...although that was just sickening from a gender respect point of view.

As far as we know, no boxes were harmed in the making of this propaganda film.

[JaneyVee]

35. I still don't get it, will have to look it up. Thanks though. Also I thought she

Was a ballerina not a pole dancer.

[Hydra]

36. That's my understanding too

There was a weird blanket list of accusations in the beginning. I was barely paying attention other than to pick out possible relevant stuff. I vaguely remember that "he still had boxes unpacked in his garage" was supposed to suggest that he was not settled in to his Hawaii house(not planning on staying?) and the thing about his Girlfriend seemed to be about how we all thought it was cute that she was a ballerina and turning that into something else by making her out to be a stripper.

The first thing I still laugh at. I've never seen a clean garage from anyone that had a certain level of stuff. The second thing I thought was as one person put it "slut shaming," and was really uncalled for/spoke ill of the people saying it.

[sabrina 1]

50. Before I had time to figure it out, they had moved quickly to the next one on the list. Things

were being thrown out there pretty quickly.

[bvar22]

82. Here you go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022983957

The usuals were breathlessly parading this crap around DU in an early and failed attempt to divert attention from the revelations about the extensive NSA Domestic Spying, and FISA "oversight".

This "List" contained other gems like:

*3. Wasn’t a friendly neighbor.
--- Neighbors also said Snowden had boxes piled floor-to-ceiling in his garage for the entire six months he lived there.

*4. His laptop stickers reveal his beliefs.

*8. Not on social media.

This is even funnier today in light of all the other failed attempts to divert.
Go read that thread for a few good laughs.

[sabrina 1]

183. 'Not on Social Media'!! That's an interesting little item considering the claims that they had found

him slamming the left or something, on some obscure website which I tried to find, and when I did all I saw was someone whose handle didn't seem to have anything to do with him.

[Hydra]

31. Grasping sand

The harder they grasp, the more sand slips out their fingers. The only way to hold all the sand is to do it gently, or better, with an open hand.

All of the smears and hysteria over Snowden has actually made him look better and bolster support for Bradley Manning and the other Whistleblowers who have gotten the wrath of the gov't.

The mask is slipping, and it's not pretty.

[leftstreet]

34. DURec

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Snowden is a traitor because he turned on the lights and exposed what the government is doing

to it's own people and the world.

The pursuit of Snowden has exposed the the government's fear of the people. And, the embrace of the government's efforts to suppress what Snowden revealed by some has exposed their hypocrisy.

[nashville_brook]

57. +1

[Amonester]

41. I guess TT never heard of the KKK in Virginia... or will he create one about it?

Virginia KKK Using Obama’s Second Term as a Recruiting Tool
http://thisweekinblackness.com/2013/01/13/virginia-kkk-using-obamas-second-term-as-a-recruiting-tool/

So the FBI/NSA should let them 'grow' as big as they plan to (and do)?

It's nice to live in a dream world. Can I join ya?

[sabrina 1]

46. Did anyone say that crime should be ignored? I think we are saying the OPPOSITE. CRIME

should be prosecuted fairly of course. Wall St. Criminals should be prosecuted. War Criminals should be prosecuted. Terrorists, should be prosecuted, KKK members who engage in crimes should be prosecuted.

But the rule of law has been abandoned, for some.

I wish I were living in a dream world and that when I wake up we will have returned to applying to the law equally to all people.

Instead in the real world, Cheney et al have been turned into Elder Statesmen still profiting from their crimes while those who expose the crimes, Bradley Manning eg, is on trial and not once did our Government address the issues he raised. Not even an attempt to do so.

I'm fine with justice being applied equally, across the board, to everyone and with 'no man is above the law'. Maybe the RL will catch up with my Dream World some day.

[Amonester]

48. I hope so too, but since actually, it seems they do let them grow their foolish stupidity

one that could become akin to tearorist activities without doing anything in order to prevent possible future atrocities, I am inclined to believe they're not watching them, like they claim, as these dangerous fools still are US citizens.

[sabrina 1]

49. Or maybe they are not surveilling all this data to catch terrorists. Maybe it is 'data mining' to be

sold for profit having zero to do with terror. The scandal would be enormous if that turns out to be the case because the billions these Private Security Contractors are getting in funding from Congress is based on the theory that they are 'fighting terror'.

We have far more proof that data IS being sold for profit than that it has ever helped to stop any terrorists.

Eg, they already had one of the Boston bombers on their radar, for several years. Even if they had not caught him actually doing anything, they knew his travel patterns thanks to info they received from the Russian Govt. If Glenn Greenwald has spent that much time in one of those countries with extremists, do you think no one would have noticed, that he would not have been under surveillance?

Yet this guy was ignored. It makes no sense to spend billions of dollars and so much time and effort to monitor everyone's phone habits on the possibility that some day 'a number might come to their attention' and they could go to the data collection to 'match it'?? To what?? Why not use reverse phone records on that one individual, then get a warrant for his phone records?

When something makes no sense, it's because it just doesn't, there is some other purpose someone doesn't want us to know about.

[nashville_brook]

60. we apply the principle of accountability to powerless, and the principle of forgiveness to powerful

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/25/chris_hayes_bring_on_the_upper_middle_class_revolution/

“Along with all the other rising inequalities we’ve become so familiar with — in income, in wealth, in access to politicians — we confront now a fundamental inequality of accountability. We can have a just society whose guiding ethos is accountability and punishment, where both black kids dealing weed in Harlem and investment bankers peddling fraudulent securities on Wall Street are forced to pay for their crimes, or we can have a just society whose guiding ethos is forgiveness and second chances, one in which both Wall Street banks and foreclosed households are bailed out, in which both insider traders and street felons are allowed to rejoin polite society with the full privileges of citizenship intact. But we cannot have a just society that applies the principle of accountability to the powerless and the principle of forgiveness to the powerful. This is the America in which we currently reside.”

[Electric Monk]

52. Tom Tomorrow reads DU, no doubt about it :) nt

[MotherPetrie]

53. K&R

[marmar]

54. k/r

[nashville_brook]

55. I'll take whichever side Peter King is against...any day of the week.

Great work Sabrina!

[sabrina 1]

72. I didn't want to go overboard as some people are a bit sensitive about whose side they are

finding themselves on. But not just King.

It's a scary rogue's gallery of war criminals who are on their side, like this guy:



And the 'heartless one' himself;



Not to mention Mr. Clueless, The Decider himself:



If you found yourself on the same side as any one of these morons, wouldn't you rethink your positions, but ALL of them?

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. knr

[SomethingFishy]

63. But.. But... Egg... Face.. Chinese Spy... BLUE MEENIES!!!

Hang in there.. the sordid sex scandal revelations are probably on their way. Nothing else is working so they have to dig all the way to the bottom.

[WillyT]

67. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[Cleita]

71. Character assassination is a fallacy of logic.

http://www.unc.edu/~tparent/fallacies.htm

Character Assassination: Argument Ad Hominem
This is the fallacy of attacking a view by attacking the person who holds it.

Clinton’s views on conducting domestic affairs can’t be right. After all, he can’t even conduct himself.

It is quite possible for someone to be a brilliant at domestic policy, yet be a lousy person. (There have in fact been some U.S. presidents like this.) Thus, the details of the person’s character, in this case, are irrelevant.

Of course, sometimes character traits are relevant. For example, the fact that Clinton cheats on his wife would support the claim that he is not a great moral leader (though perhaps it does not necessarily imply this). The point is that not all arguments ad hominem are completely wrong-headed.

It means that they don't have much in the way of facts so they must attack the person instead.

[rhett o rick]

75. Very true. Thank you.

I would like to use this.

[Cleita]

80. Sure, why wouldn't you be able to use it?

It's on a public forum and I posted the link to the website which lists many other fallacies of logic.

[rhett o rick]

76. k&r thanks for posting.

[orpupilofnature57]

78. He's just the kid that said " Wheres your clothes ? " to the

Emperor class, their agents in Washington, and Misanthropic Sycophant Monsters that have all the air time .

[aquart]

79. "All" is false.

I hope Snowden goes to Venezuela and we never hear a word from the asshole again. He interfered in our relations with our allies and I would be happy to turn him over to Brazilian sports fans except he is currently a hero there. But I wouldn't be upset if they did to him what they did to the killer ref.

However, the FISA court discussion is necessary and anything that keeps the heat on that is good.

Anything that make institutions and corporations nervous about mass info collection is excellent.

But the tooth fairy believers who think the data collection can be stopped...eh. It can't and what we have to work for is strategies to deal with it.

[LiberalLovinLug]

87. So what is it?

On one hand you seem to despise Snowden to the point of wanting him quartered and beheaded by an angry mob, presumably with you at the helm wielding the machete.

On the other you seem to acknowledge that Snowden has facilitated a much needed discussion on topics such as FISA court, and making mass info collecting institutions "nervous".

I too unfortunately do not think data collection can be outright stopped at this stage, and agree we need strategies to deal with it. Like more transparency and safe guards that spying and wiretapping cannot be used, as Nixon did, for purely partisan or political purposes for one. Because you know that DU and its members and other liberal sites would be the first targeted, if they haven't been already. John Roberts, the fairly young chief justice of the Supreme Court is the sole appointer of FISA court judges until he dies. That's scary.

So its baffling why you'd want the "asshole" that facilitated this much needed public debate on this topic by his actions, which have doomed him to a life of, at best, banishment from his home country to have a horrible violent end to his life.

[aquart]

105. Because he gave aid and comfort to our direct competitors.

Our allies whom we have been trying to keep from becoming enemies despite competing interests. His simplistic little sci-fi mind does not grasp the intricate push pull of international relations. You don't seem to understand how different it is from national relations, either.

He wants to put Brazil above the United States, let Brazil have him. Let Venezuela have him. I would prefer not to have a trial just because of ignorant crap like this.

THE FLAMING IDIOT DOESN'T THINK SPY AGENCIES SHOULD SPY! And many at DU agree wholeheartedly. Not me. But the balance is delicate. And secrecy will always lead to coverups of really awful decisions, so leaks and cleanups are regularly necessary.

What is ridiculous is the belief that any of this will ever end. Or that it's not right to spy on people. Of course it's not right. That's why spying is dangerous and caught spies are left to swing slowly slowly in the wind. Unless there is a gentlemen's agreement prisoner exchange.

[Fumesucker]

124. Snowden didn't release anything that was not already known to foreign intelligence services

He let the real enemy know what was going on, the American people.

That's why he must be silenced.

[aquart]

143. Wow. Trying to have it both ways.

Everyone already knew so he didn't do anything to our international relationships. Only the
American people didn't know, and now that they do and that's all he has, he must be silenced.

That sound as idiotic to you as it does to me?

To clarify for YOU, doesn't matter what Brazil or others knew. Now they PUBLICLY know, and that is a whole different ballgame. God preserve us from the simple because international relations aren't.

[sabrina 1]

144. I don't think I agree with you that nothing can be done to stop all this surveillance. All this is

is unethical people taking advantage, mostly financially, of new technology before the International Community decides that since everyone is doing it, it is benefiting no one. I would not be surprised, because Snowden is only the latest in what is becoming a long line of Whistle Blowers on this subject alone, to finally a move towards getting some laws in place, by the Inteeenational Community.

The printing press, the telephone, television, various differnent weapons, all went through a sort of 'free for all' period before laws had to be passed to protect people from the buses of the few.

[JDPriestly]

83. I think I know why Snowden quit his job, went to Hong Kong and blew the whistle.

He read my e-mails. I have an account with something like 2000 e-mails. A few of them are from my friends and family, and some are from knitting or gardening companies and website, but most of them are from politicians. And almost all the e-mails from politicians request money.

And I haven't mentioned my spam folder.

So, that is, I think, why Snowden decided to spill the beans.

[LiberalLovinLug]

88. And thankyou Sabrina!

You are absolutely right, this whole thing has backfired.

I really hope Bradley Manning gets some much needed positive blowback from all this as well.

[Californeeway]

89. Hero worship is fucking stupid period

If the creeping in of the police state really bothers you (I'm sure it bothers everyone who's been paying attention), then you would be talking about what legislation is out there to stop it or at least limit it's growth. We'd be talking about supporting the political leaders trying to curtail the growth of the police state.

All this Snowden hero-worship bullshit has nothing to do with any of that. Why are political ideologues so quick and unthinking about canonizing whatever random stranger that comes along and confirms their biases for them? It seems really lazy and childish to me.

[LiberalLovinLug]

93. You missed the point

The OP is saying that its the State itself that has made Snowden into a hero (or anti-hero). Either way in their shift to focus the attention on the man and not "the creeping in of the police state", their hope was to demonize him so that anything associated with him would be dismissed and ignored. Instead, in spite of their best efforts, most Americans, and most citizens of the world do not think he is a demon, but support what he has done.

All this has in fact created a platform for discussion on those very topics. This OP is simply about that phenomenon. There are other threads that deal with the actual leaks themselves.

[Californeeway]

104. I didn't miss the point

at all.

If it's the focus of "the State" to distract the public with a blizzard of Snowden bullshit, then aren't you helping them in their devious plot by saying it IS all about him? I don't want it to be because I want the government to start answering some hard questions about it. I don't want them to have the Snowden drama to hide behind.

And basically, because Snowden isn't just dumping everything he has and letting us judge for ourselves, but dripping a little here and there selectively and getting caught making demonstrably false claims, yes, people question his validity, because that's what responsible people do before they light their hair on fire and take a stranger's word for gospel. And questioning thus determining his validity is a very important part of getting to the bottom of the story and figuring out just how far the surveillance is going. I don't want to just assume the worse just because that dovetails nicely with my preconceived notions. I want to know the truth.

I'm just saying, I'm sick of listening to Liberals doting over this guy like he's a long lost Beatle because it smacks of cultishness and intellectual laziness and gets in the way of the work of digging into this NSA issue. . I suspect a lot of people around here feel the same, not because they are "authoritarians" but because they are a lot more worried about getting down to the facts of this NSA program than listening to this hero worship BS.

[sabrina 1]

97. You didn't read the OP, did you?

[bvar22]

156. Posted before reading again?

[DirkGently]

91. Because the issue is valid, Snowden may if anything get

... more credit and support than he would personally merit. Bad-faith attacks sometimes work, but for a lot of people, it sets off alarms and red flags. It signifies a panic that some dangerous truth is afoot.

[midnight]

92. Sabrina thank you so much for laying out such a clear argument about why to keep talking about

Snowden....

[Douglas Carpenter]

95. knr

[20score]

96. Way to go, Sabrina!

Well said!

[mwooldri]

98. Rep. Peter King (R-NY) - documented terrorist supporter.

Funding the IRA, speaking out for the IRA... I trust him with national security as much as I trust the Homer Simpson Weightloss Program to lose me 10 lbs in 30 days by eating donuts and drinking beer.

As for Snowden... I am not judging yet. I don't have enough information to go one way or another. However he has taken some extreme measures so there is something the Powers That Be don't want us to know, especially if the asylum offer from Russia was for Snowden to shut up. .

[sabrina 1]

112. Lol, another who didn't read the OP.

Reading is essential, before commenting.

My life is wonderful, I'm worried about those whose lives are not. I'm a Liberal Democrat so that goes without saying.

[L0oniX]

123. You keep this up and I'm gonna have to do a DU Shout Out to Sabrina 1.

[sabrina 1]

141. Lol, I think considering my 'fan' club you'd do better with a 'smack down'!

[L0oniX]

121. Jeeze...

[Liberal_Dog]

103. Another K & R

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

118. Thank you for acting like a Democrat should act.

[Catherina]

140. It's hilarious. It's about Snowden all over Latin America now too

People who don't even have computers, who would never have known about the massive surveillance of their cell phone calls, now know him by name, and what he revealed, thanks to the back-firing fiasco of stopping President Morales' plane.

I love minute 1:05 of this little video of President Morales telling his people what happened with his plane and explaining to people why he's going to give "asylum to a former CIA agent named Ed..ward Snow...Dem" who revealed massive illegal spying.

Heck of of job lol.

[sabrina 1]

142. I know, it's incomprehensible that they could be this stupid. Don't they know from history, our

own history for that matter, that when a Government comes down hard on someone who releases information that the Government is trying so hard to keep 'secret' it is inevitable that they will turn this person into an international hero.

Thanks for the video, what an intelligent, thoughtful President Bolivia has.

[Catherina]

150. I have deep, mad respect for him. Ever since I read of his activities for Madre Tierra years ago

He was years ahead of his time on important issues like global warming, genetically modified food, water privatization though you wouldn't know it by the Anglo media. Out of all his legislation, speeches, talks, workshops, and global activities, all they had to report to the public was their deliberate distortion of one sentence he said, that eating genetically modified, hormone-laden industrialized chicken destroyed traditional healthier raising practices and caused health problems like impotence. They twisted that into "Evo Morales says eating chicken causes homosexuality". I can't wait to hear what they come up with now that Bolivians got rid of McDonalds and Coca-Cola for health, environmental and labor reasons.

The press went after him quite viciously after he called on capitalist countries to reduce their global emissions and if they couldn't do that, to at least cap them at a 1% increase per year so they were already in a fury against this *little* upstart.

I love him for his concern for the environment, his fight for social justice. I found it astounding that the press even dared that distortion when it was under his leadership that Bolivia became the first country in the world to protect gender identity rights and to enshrine rights for LGBT into their constitution in 2009.

I am thankful the chicken lie isn't being repeated at DU. At least I hope it isn't. If it ever rears its ugly head, I hope people remember this post.

From wiki:

approved in a referendum in 2009. The 2009 Constitution defines Bolivia as a unitary plurinational, and secular (rather than a Catholic, as before) state, formally known as the Plurinational State of Bolivia. It calls for a mixed economy of state, private, and communal ownership; restricts private land ownership to a maximum of 5,000 hectares (12,400 acres); recognizes a variety of autonomies at the local and departmental level. It elevates the electoral authorities, to become a fourth constitutional power; introduces the possibility of recall elections for all elected officials; and enlarges the Senate. Members of the enlarged National Congress will be elected by first past the post voting in the future,[dubious – discuss] in a change from the previous mixed member proportional system. The judiciary is reformed, and judges will be elected in the future and no longer appointed by the National Congress. It declares natural resources to be the exclusive dominion of the Bolivian people, administered by the state.

Article 14.

I. All human beings have personality and legal capacity in accordance to the laws and enjoy the rights recognized by this Constitution, without any distinction.

II. The State prohibits and sanctions any form of discrimination founded on a reason of sex, color, age, sexual orientation, gender identity, origin, culture, nationality, citizenship, language, religious creed, ideology, political or philosophical affiliation, marital status, economic or social condition, type of occupation, grade of instruction, disability, pregnancy, or others that have as an objective or result in annulling or reducing the recognition, enjoyment and exercise, in conditions of equality, of the rights of every person.

III. The State guarantees to every person and collectivity, without any discrimination, the free and efficient exercise of the rights established in this Constitution, the laws and the international treaties of human rights.

IV. While exercising their rights, nobody will be obligated to do what this Constitution and the laws don't mandate, or deprive themselves from what they don’t prohibit.

and offenses are criminalized.

On October 8, Bolivian President Evo Morales signed the “Law against Racism and all Forms of Discrimination” (O45) into effect. Despite protests from journalists across the country, the Bolivian Legislative Assembly passed the law without modifying contested articles 16 and 23, which outline potential penalties for members of the media who publish racist or discriminatory ideas.

http://ain-bolivia.org/2010/10/conflict-and-consensus-the-anti-racism-and-discrimination-law-in-bolivia-part-i-content-and-justification-of-the-legislation/

Article 283 ter. – (Discrimination)

A person who arbitrarily or illegally obstructs, restricts, infringes upon, impedes or prevents the exercise of individual or collective rights, motivated by sex, age, gender, sexual orientation or gender identity, cultural identity, family affiliation, nationality, citizenship, language, religious creed, ideology, political opinion or philosophy, marital status, economic or social situation, illness, occupation, level of education, being differently abled or having a physical, intellectual or sensory disability, pregnancy, regional origin, physical appearance and dress, will be sanctioned to a prison sentence between one and five years.

I. The sanction will be at least one third and at most one half more severe when:
The act is committed by a public servant or authority.
The act is committed by an individual in the provision of public service.
The act was committed with violence.

http://ain-bolivia.org/2010/10/conflict-and-consensus-the-anti-racism-and-discrimination-law-in-bolivia-part-i-content-and-justification-of-the-legislation/

Now they're working on legalizing same-sex marriage.

Deep, mad respect.

[sabrina 1]

161. Yes, that was disgusting and proved beyond a doubt the complete dishonesty of those

supporting the Surveillance state in this country. They had reams of wonderful material showing what a brilliant, advocate for human rights he is, so you know that to even find that, then deliberately misinterpret it, they had to be searching for something, anything negative to spread around through their equally despicable operatives.

That is a true example of what a democracy should be.

Thank you for the links and the time you always take to find the FACTS. It is appreciated more than you know.

[Catherina]

164. You're so welcome. I stand firmly by his side, and yours, and others on the same wavelength

Leaders like Morales are actually doing something FOR their people and WITH their people.

Just yesterday, this was in the news. Meanwhile, in the name of *freedom* and *democracy*, we get austerity.

If Snowden makes it to an ALBA country, within a week we'll start hearing that Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda are running the place.

ALBA Bank to Invest Millions in Social Programs



Caracas, Jul 10 (Prensa Latina) The ALBA Bank is accumulating investments for around $170 million USD to finance social initiatives, as part of the actions for cooperation in this field, sources of the institution reported today.
In that reference, ALBA Bank's President Rafael Isea held a meeting with Ismael Gonzalez, coordinator of social policies of the Bolivarian Alliance for the People of our Americas (ALBA).

The funds are mainly devoted to support the programs ALBA Education, Cultural ALBA and ALBA Health, the entity said.

...

ALBA Education is already being implemented with the educational methods "Yes, I Can" and "Yes, I Can Continue," created by Cuban teachers, and is currently applied in Bolivia, Nicaragua and Dominica.

In the altiplano, more than 500,000 Bolivians have received elementary education and in Nicaragua, approximately 800,000 people have accessed the same kind of education.

...

The ALBA Bank not only boosts socio-productive projects and programs that are in line with a social reality, but also contribute to economic, political, cultural and trade integration, Isea concluded.

sgl/iom/rc/mem
Modificado el ( miércoles, 10 de julio de 2013 )

[LiberalLovinLug]

166. what a great example!

(both this little drama and President Morales himself)

I wish I would have used this on others up thread when this thread was hot.

Their modis operandi was to paint Snowden as some kind of evil international mastermind in the vein of Dr. Evil. To trust them that he did something very very wrong and dangerous to the security of the USA. And that's all we needed to know. So much so that they overplayed their hand and it resulted in this Dubya worthy clusterfuck.

Now they've pissed off a whole continent. And more people are deciding to find out what the big deal is and look more closely at what Snowden revealed and how it may effect the future and their children's future and what kind of country they want to live in.

[davidpdx]

146. I don't think it is about any one person, company, or agency

but the system and those who are part of the system and why it continues to fail. One piece of that failure is how Snowden was able to remove documents from the place he worked, and how he should be held accountable. The NSA program needs to be reviewed, revised and proper oversight and reporting need to be applied. The use of contractors needs to be looked at including how their employees are given security clearances.

I've said over and over again (until I'm fucking blue in the face) this is not as black or white as either side is making it out to be. All of these issues need to be addressed.

[NickB79]

147. The last panel with Ben Franklin is brilliant

ROFL.

[sabrina 1]

149. I know, I love that one.

It perfectly represents how I felt when I heard Obama, after the leaks were first published, state that 'we can't have 100% security without giving up some of our privacies'. I was stunned. And did think 'what would Ben Franklin say'?

Now I know! Lol!

[backscatter712]

159. Snowden's a hero, and a big symbol. I'm fine with him being a lightning rod.

He's kept the NSA debate going almost single-handedly. The Powers That Be only wish that PRISM would get one, maybe two 24 hour news cycles, but thanks to Snowden, the story keeps going and going and going...

And while people complain about talking about Snowden instead of the NSA's abuses, the truth is that these two are parts of the same story and are inseperable. When people talk about Snowden, the inevitable question comes up: Why? NSA abuses, that's why.

[sabrina 1]

184. Exactly. At first it was obvious that the pro-surveillance state contingency wanted to talk about

ONLY him, mostly with made up smears, in order to distract from the issues. But over time all their attacks only made the issues more important. It makes sense, because as you say people wonder 'why is everyone so upset over this guy', and then they find out what they might have missed otherwise.

So if they want to make him the focus, I'm fine with that now.

[allin99]

163. And strangely, you'd think the anti-snowden persons...

would have wanted to talk about the nsa, the patriot act and fisa, but turns out, they're not interested in that at all.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

174. Oh, the irony!

Great thread, Sabrina 1!