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[Name removed]

[The Magistrate]

1. You Gettin' Desperate, Aint'cha, Fella?

[russspeakeasy]

9. Sounds more like you are Making the smoke.

[Decoy of Fenris]

12. Smoke or not, Zimmerman case aside, he's right.

Give me a "Trained" MMA fighter like Zimmerman over a street-fighter any day of the week. Martial arts are only a true threat after repetition and knowledge of form, function and style. I know that after my first year or two of Okinawan Goju-Ryu that I still wouldn't have been able to defend myself; rote repetition is not execution.

[The Magistrate]

11. Nah, You Just Tryin' To Smoke It Up Thicker, Fella

Zimmerman has a police record for punching an officer, and several other scrapes involving roughing up women. He has poor impulse control, a demonstrated propensity to violence, and a yellow streak a yard wide.

[Decoy of Fenris]

17. That doesn't invalidate his statement on fighting/fighters.

Zimmerman's a scumbag, aye, and he's violent, aye, but that does not make him an effective fighter. The OP, in the details about martial arts (outside of the Zimmerman case), is accurate.

[The Magistrate]

23. His Comment, Sir, Is An Attempt To Claim Zimmerman Was Helpless

And further, that he was helpless faced with Mr. Martin, who, by virtue of being a Negro youth, must be possessed of considerable practiced street-fighting skills. Any truth value in the statement is coincidental to this intent, and so not worth addressing....

[Decoy of Fenris]

26. Coincidental to intent, certainly, but -true-.

As I stated in another post, if you took Martin and Zimmerman, stood them face to face, said they would be fighting (place your bets) and then had them in a fight, I would -easily- throw a large chunk of money on Martin. Speed, tenacity and endurance trump a modicum of "Training" in any conflict.

[The Magistrate]

33. Not My Bet, Sir

I know one has experience, and that is Zimmerman. A man in his late twenties is likely to be stronger than a teen-ager. A man who clearly fizzes with desire to hurt someone also has a certain edge in a scrap with a person who has a more normal attitude to inflicting harm on another.

[Decoy of Fenris]

48. I'd take your bet.

You see experience as a good thing; I see Zimmer's XP as a detriment. You say a late-twenties is stronger than a teenager: I know, as a man in my late twenties, that most teenagers could probably beat the hell outta me right now.

Most importantly, someone with a -desire- to hurt someone is going to make mistakes. The calm and rational fighter will normally win the day. If anything, this would be Martin's downfall: He was alone, approached by a stranger and confronted. That's the only way I'd see Martin losing that fight. If it was straight, heads up, I'd wager my life savings on Martin.

[LanternWaste]

61. Like shooting an unarmed teenager.

"Someone with a -desire- to hurt someone is going to make mistakes. ..."

Like shooting an unarmed teenager. That's a pretty wowzer of a mistake right there.

[Decoy of Fenris]

64. Zim's mistake: Thinking he was able to handle a conflict.

More important mistake: Assuming that because he had training, he was ready for a fight.

Most important mistake: Getting out of the damned car because "Screw the police, I'm fight-ready and I've got a gun."



So yeah, mistakes were made.

[opiate69]

73. Yeah.. That's not what you said in post 12, though...

Give me a "Trained" MMA fighter like Zimmerman over a street-fighter any day of the week.

[uponit7771]

32. +1, black kids aren't born welter weight contenders!!!

[blm]

70. Did YOU teach your kid to not fight adult strangers who get close enough to grab him?

Isn't that the REAL matter at hand?

[blm]

2. Aren't kids TAUGHT to punch/kick at adult strangers following them close enough to grab them by

Safety Officers who go to their schools?

By their parents?

By their martial arts instructors?

Will parents now have to tell their children to give in to whatever an adult stranger wants from them and to NOT punch or kick at the adult stranger who has been following them, because if they do punch or kick at that adult stranger, the adult stranger has every right to shoot them?

[blm]

14. If grabbed, or if the adult stranger following them gets CLOSE ENOUGH to grab them?

Should a child be taught to WAIT until they're grabbed by the stranger they fear?

[Decoy of Fenris]

20. In my dojo, we were taught to identify a threat:

Identify, classify, analyze, and retain that information. -IF- a conflict arises, we use what we've observed to our advantage to neutralize the threat, but only when we believe there is a legitimate danger to our well-being.

This was back when I was 12 in the long-long ago, though. Don't know if they still teach it.

[blm]

21. Did you tell your child to WAIT until after he was grabbed? Or did you tell him to

give in to the adult stranger because if he defends himself that adult stranger has the right to pull a gun and shoot him?

[Starry Messenger]

3. So Zimmerman was naturally thuggish and murderous.

Works for me.

[Decoy of Fenris]

6. You're very right, at least in theory. (semi-graphic fight video)

Fighting is all about tactics, strategic application of force, spatial awareness and timing. No matter -how- good your training, if you're lacking in even one of these areas, you are suffering an immense weakness that can be exploited.

This is a comment NOT on the Zimmerman case, but on the sentiment of the OP that training does not equal expertise.

[awoke_in_2003]

40. He needed to be knocked out...

if only for wearing his pants like that.

[Decoy of Fenris]

43. Fashion choice aside: The big guy loses in one punch.

The little guy had spatial awareness, determination, form (Note that it's a left-handed swing from within the larger man's arm/fist threat range), and style. The big guy had -every- advantage and lost.

[awoke_in_2003]

51. Yep, the little guy knew what he was doing...

I especially like how he quickly backs out once the punch is landed. I had to watch it several times to see him connect- the kid is fast.

[Decoy of Fenris]

53. Speed and knowledge of combat trumps "Big strong guy" any day of the week.

It seems a few people here don't understand that, though...

[awoke_in_2003]

55. Yeah, but please don't think...

that I believe Zimmerman was attacked- I don't. He created the situation, not Martin.

[Decoy of Fenris]

56. Oh, I agree.

Dude's gonna get Manslaughter at least. 2nd may be hard to prove, but here's hoping he doesn't get to see the light of day for a long, -long- time.

[awoke_in_2003]

60. Yeah, I hope so too...

but I get a feeling the bastard is going to get off.

[leftstreet]

7. Can you possibly email this post to his defense team?

This could be pivotal

[KittyWampus]

8. I took Tai Chi for years. It is an actual martial art. But I did it for self cultivation.

Some do if for balance, health etc.

Anyway, one day someone grabbed me from behind out side class. Not aggressively. It was a friend playing.

Without thinking, I automatically pivoted around with my arm moving upwards in one motion and knocked the person off balance.

Didn't knock them down… just off balance and away from me.

This was automatic.

If you've been taking classes for a while, you do begin to internalize certain habits.

[Kingofalldems]

10. I love that story.

[The Magistrate]

16. Indeed, Sir: Ain't It A Cool One?

[Just Saying]

13. Zimmerman was a bouncer.

But yeah sure he didn't know how to fight. And he's just like your niece and your son.

There's a difference between not being able to fight and being a wuss who pulls his gun when his mouth writes checks his ass can't cash.

[VanillaRhapsody]

15. Well his trainer must suck to the max

if after 3 days a week for over a year his judgment calls him a .5. I would sue for my money back!

[Decoy of Fenris]

24. Trainers, as a general rule, train form, -then- function.

For the first year of my martial art training, I learned Kata after Kata and did conditioning. I knew the moves, but I didn't know how to apply them. When we started sparring for the first time, a year and a half later, it was very slow, very methodical with excruciating detail paid to the movements in a real-time scenario. A backfist is easy in rote repetition: In combat, it is a vastly different animal. In Kata, backfists are to the head; in fighting, Backfists are to generalized weak points.


Someone exposed only to kata or MMA theory would be at a severe handicap in a street-fight if they attempted to use their training without significant prior experience.

[VanillaRhapsody]

25. three days a week?

and still less than ONE?

He lost like 40lbs during that time...but still less than one? Come on!

[Decoy of Fenris]

29. Loss of weight leads to loss of coordination.

That kind of weight loss is detrimental to the study of the form as well as the function; as your body changes, so too do your movements, rendering -how- you learned them moot. That is a large reason why most dojos will practice cardio and endurance training before teaching any combat above or beyond a straight punch or simple side block.

Coordination and spatial awareness are key, and if one's weight/body is constantly changing, then you have neither of those things.


Can you elaborate on "less than one"? I'm afraid I don't follow your thought.

[VanillaRhapsody]

34. Oh come on.....

that is what his Trainer evaluated his ability on the stand...to try to make Zimm seem like a weakling..AFTER 3 days a week and over a year training. Get it? He should demand his money back!

[Decoy of Fenris]

39. I'm not talking about Zimmerman, at least in content.

I'm speaking on the nature of martial arts and combat training alone, outside of the Zimmerman case. What I do see is a large amount of muttering about things posters do not understand, since they have not experienced it: "training" is not "Fighting" any more than "Reading a textbook" is "Doing rocket science."

[VanillaRhapsody]

41. Perhaps you should know abit more about what we are discussing before you chime in

Zimmerman's trainer on the stand is what this is about....so...you should probably find that online and listen.

40 lbs in a year...comes to about 3.5 lbs a month. If he was still a weakling as his trainer suggest his ability at fighting was after that investment, he should be sued!

[Decoy of Fenris]

46. I don't know about Zimmerman. I do know quite a deal about fighting.

3.5 lbs a month, depending on circumstances, can genuinely be a hinderence. Reconditioning and a reestablishment of muscle memory is common after losing that much weight in that amount of time.


I honestly don't give two whits about the Zimmerman case. He's guilty as hell, he'll probably walk or get Manslaughter, there's nothing I can do to alter that in either way. What I do care about is the deliberate and willful misrepresenting of martial arts and how they work in relation to both theoretical form and combat functionality. There's a lot of misinformation going on about martial arts, and I'm only seeking to correct that information.

[VanillaRhapsody]

58. The discussion IS about Zimmerman!

You are barking up the wrong trees!

[Decoy of Fenris]

62. Well when the trees stop being wrong, I'll stop barking up them.

Screw Zimmerman, let 'em rot in a dungeon. In the meantime, a year of martial arts training is NOT combat-readiness. Maybe, -maybe- seven days a week, three hours a session, ALL YEAR might get you to combat-readiness in a year, but every other day with limited and debatably poor training, and you are no combatant with any degree of skill.

[VanillaRhapsody]

63. the are NOT wrong in this case

3 days a week MMA style training for a year along with 40lbs of wieght loss (and when you consider what he looks like now and that is indicative of his normal eating habits)...then being judged only .5 out of 10 is pathetic! And also bullshit!

[Decoy of Fenris]

65. It's pathetic, and it's true.

Some people just can't do martial arts. My buddy Howard weighed a whopping 450 lbs when he started training with us, and yeah, he lost close to a hundred pounds in two years, but he still couldn't fight a lick. TWO YEARS of training and a hundred pounds lighter and he couldn't swing a punch that wasn't a haymaker.


It's not bullshit, it just doesn't fit the narrative you want, so you discard it. I've got seventeen years of martial arts teaching, -and- training, under my belt, and I can tell you straight up, you're wrong. Zimmerman at -best- was an amateur and would get wrecked by anything greater than a stiff breeze if he tried his "MMA training" against anyone more competent than a five-year-old. Three days of MMA training a week for a year makes for an overconfident idiot, nothing more, and lots less.

[VanillaRhapsody]

69. No one is saying he was ready for actual in the ring professional fighting.

But to say that he was an abject weakling and couldn't fight in an amateur spur of the moment fight against a teenager 40 lbs lighter than him is utter bullshit.

For his trainer to portray him this way is too!

[Decoy of Fenris]

71. I'd put good money that he couldn't handle that fight.

Sometimes, knowledge is a detriment, and if Zimmerman attempted to try an "MMA move" , untested, in the middle of an actual fight, he's more liable to hurt himself than he would hurt Martin in addition to placing himself at an extreme disadvantage.

Also, where's the idea that "He's heavier, therefore he's stronger" coming from? Trust me. I've fought guys a foot taller than me and two hundred pounds heavier: they are -easy- to beat, no matter how big they are. There's a reason there's the saying "The bigger they are."

[uppityperson]

66. Sudden weight loss might, but when gradually losing weight your body adjusts.

[Decoy of Fenris]

68. It does, but there's still a transitional period.

For every pound the body loses, it has to recalibrate the movements it knows. When your arm weighs twenty pounds, and suddenly it's nineteen point eight, you swing slightly faster; your muscle memory has to adjust. About the same time that it's done adjusting, you've lost more weight; your body is constantly playing catch-up and muscle memory continues to be altered. By the time you stop losing weight, your body hasn't learned a damned thing. Great; you're lighter, but you still have no idea how to reflexively throw or block a punch.

[uppityperson]

72. I notice you use "suddenly" when I said gradually. Also, since weight is lost across the body and

not just in the arm, if you move your arm and use it for most of us vs Olympic Athletes (tm) we can pretty much keep up with it so long as it is gradual.

[Decoy of Fenris]

74. I was using the arm as a hypothetical microcosm, but you should have known that.

When the body, as a whole, loses weight, it's in a continual state of flux in both weight and muscle memory. And while I'm having a hard time following your sentence after "most of us", I'll go out on a limb and assume you meant we all adjust swiftly.

While you're not wrong, you're not right, either. The body may be losing weight, but that doesn't mean that it's not alternatively gaining more; when I work out, I lose weight rapidly, but my weight fluctuates. I'll lose fifteen pounds, then twenty five, then I'll gain thirty and lose another ten, all in the course of a few months. I promise you, I'm stumbling around like a drunken idiot for quite a few weeks as I get used to my new weight, and if I drop the regimen, I'm more prone to losing muscle memory. My martial art does require some upkeep; while my body remembers basic movements, I need to continually recondition in order to use them effectively.

[Aerows]

45. You only learned Kata and conditioning for a year?

You didn't start sparring until after a year and a half? What martial art discipline were you studying, because I was sparring after 2 months in Tae Kwon Do.

Come to think of it, we were learning throws and did throws as yellow belts .. or maybe green but that would be at the very latest.

[Decoy of Fenris]

52. Okinawan Goju Ryu. Also, a brief reading error on your part.

No, we didn't learn Kata only for a year, but we learned Kata, only, for a year. Our White-belt training period was close to three years long, consisting of several grades of dan leading up to graduation to Purple belt.

And aye, we didn't start sparring for a year and a half after start, roughly. Even then, it was not full combat: It was with full padding and no contact was permitted. Only once we graduated to second-degree purple belt were we allowed to begin true kumate, but we were still expected to exercise extreme caution and restraint.

The only time we started fighting "For realsies" was almost a decade later, during our brown-belt test; it was simple, with only a few rules: No sweeps, no breaks, fight until you can't fight any more.


Also, keep in mind that goju-ryu has very few throws; we're a strictly strike-based combat system, blending strikes with control of hostile movement in pertinence to our own bodies.

[Nine]

18. What "mental and physical body type" is associated with aggression?

I get what you're saying. Zimmerman's hundreds of hours of MMA training were no match against a skinny black teen going all "street" on him. I guess some people just have aggression in their blood, right? Not like Zimmerman who lacked any real fighting spirit but was not too soft-hearted to shoot an unarmed kid at close range.

[Marrah_G]

19. LMAO!

[Demo_Chris]

22. Obviously these classes don't make Zim a street fighting master...

But they are a damn sight better than no classes at all. Zimmerman spent TEN HOURS A WEEK training to fight. He learned how to throw and take (or avoid) a punch. Trayvon had no training at all.

Why didn't he hit Trayvon? Why didn't he use ANY of the martial skills he had practiced? Obviously he wasn't incapacitated as the fight -- by Zimmerman's own testimony -- covered at least fifty feet of ground. So something was going on during all this time that neither person seemingly managed to connect any solid blows.

Zimmerman doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. He gunned down an unarmed teen, and it is HIS job to explain how and why this was necessary. He's claiming he had no other possible choice. His story doesn't add up.

[Xyzse]

27. Never considered him an MMA bad-ass

However, given that he had the advantage in weight, training, location(he is the neighborhood watch so he knows the surroundings better) as well as the fact that he is armed, he had all the physical advantages.

In trying to be in the police and being part of the neighborhood watch, that involves some sort of inner aggressiveness as well. Not to mention that knowing he is armed makes one have that false sense of security. Fact that he left his car to follow TM is a show of aggressiveness.

Bottom line, yrying to paint Zimmerman as harmless is a stretch and TM could also be considered as defending himself from a heavier armed guy who has been tailing him.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

28. so you've been here since July 7, 2013. was it just to defend Z?

because that is a pretty lame reason to join DU.

[Just Saying]

31. You already know the answer.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

38. Aw, but he/she has a lot of fans here on DU creaming their pants over Zimmerman. It's sick!

[opiate69]

44. Yup... MIRT should probably have a gander at this one...

[Jim__]

30. But, training makes the difference.

A thug may beat up a black belt; but, if so, the thug should be one hell of a fighter - many street fights count as training; usually no where near as thorough as systematic training. Anyone with a black belt that gets his ass kicked by an untrained fighter, should get a refund on his training.

[Decoy of Fenris]

35. Training without experience is a detriment.

An attempt to engage in combat without significant prior experience will only lead to attempts to imitate a martial form, not execute it, and will thusly leave you disadvantaged against even a novice fighter.


Also of note: Black belts are granted on several criteria, the first and foremost being rote kata repetition, -NOT- fighting. It's basically the ability to remember a series of complicated moves and execute them. I, as a purple belt, have outfought black belts routinely; they knew the form, but I knew the function within the form, and could act accordingly.


As I've said numerous times, I would put my wager on a street-fighter over a trained, untested MMA fighter any day of the week.

[Jim__]

50. Training without sparring is bad training if you're training to fight.

A trained fighter has a tremendous advantage against an untrained fighter - they should reflexively avoid being hit, maintain balance, and take advantage of momentary openings. If you're untrained opponent is a phenomenal athlete, his athleticism may overcome the disadvantages of being untrained but that would be the very rare person. Of course huge size discrepancies also matter.

I would consider any fight training that doesn't include sparring to be inadequate fight training.

I've seen lots of fights between street fighters - good ones - and trained fighters - it was never a contest - the trained fighter always kicked the shit out of the street fighter.

Editied: changed wouldn't to would in the 2nd paragraph - it's what I meant to say originally.

[Decoy of Fenris]

54. I'd agree. A trained, conditioned, knowledgeable fighter will drop a street fighter.

From what I can gather, Zimmers was neither of the last two.

Read some of my other posts, mate. I'd really rather not have to repost them, but if you wish, I will.

[avebury]

36. What people don't realize is that a person who is properly

trained in some form of martial arts usually does not feel the need to be aggressive because he/she knows what they are capable of doing and do not feel a need to prove anything.

I used to study karate years ago and became friends with a number of higher ranking belts. With the exception of one who was an idiot and bully (that was his nature) none of the other people I know would have started a fight. That said, if they saw another student being a bully in the dojo the would not have thought twice of taking the bully down a notch or two (nothing serious but they would get their point across).

[NoOneMan]

37. Fight training is better actually

Training creates muscle memory, strengthens bones from constant impacts (http://medind.nic.in/jau/t11/i2/jaut11i2p103.pdf), allows a body to more efficiently handle a fight or flight response, as I've learned during my 20 years of training in a physical, combat related sport.

Fight training also allows one to understand their bodies limits, capabilities, and gives people the opportunity to practice awareness and cognition in a physically demanding scenario.

It's not the training that makes them victorious in a real life fight. It's the aggressiveness.

That's just absolute absurdity and competely ludicrous.

In street fights, pure aggression wins.

Pure aggression gets you hurt. Real life isn't a Dwayne Johnson movie.

Most of these MA gyms are for people who want to get in shape.

No, spin classes are for people that want to get in shape. MMA are for people who enjoy physical contact, hanging out with their meathead friends and who want to increase their ability to handle themselves in physical confrontations.


Oh, and BTW, "fight training" doesn't just mean going through the motions. I've been in these places. I've done this stuff. We fight. We beat the hell out of each other for practice. You get contusions and breaks before you ever go live. Your head looks like it went through a meat grinder. You do it for fun sometimes before practice. Sometimes after. The only difference is that your fighting is constrained, and you must exercise mental discipline to make it so (which is crucial in a live situation to have command of your body and mind). MMA isn't karate. Its fun. Its brutal. And showing up at the gym 3 times a week isn't a walk in the park.

There is little chance a street fighter can fight enough to train their muscles and mind to be absolutely effective, without at some point being locked up. OTOH, a MMA figher gets to legally train their combat skills whenever they want. Thats why I put my money on a MMA fighter over a "street fighter", who is a guy who beat up a few guys in front of his friends, but not enough to get locked up and really train himself.

[uponit7771]

42. This is really really poor logic, Trayvon sent 100s of text messages to a girl he wasn't dating..

...that doesn't sound like a rough neck to me

[Lex]

47. Mansplaining. nt

[Savannahmann]

49. Churchill and Stalin said something that I think is relevent.

Churchill said that it takes two good years of hard training to get an army ready, truly ready, for combat. This was an explanation why the second front in France was an impossibility in 1942. Stalin replied that it took two minutes. Anyone who lived for two minutes in combat, was a veteran, and had learned everything he needed to.

Some of the most effective fighters in the Russian Army were women, who due to circumstances, did not receive much training in how to fight, but they fought, bravely, fanatically. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_women_in_World_War_II

I could hijack this thread with a dissertation on Soviet Women in world war II. But instead, I'll return to Stalin's point. Those who survived combat for two minutes were veterans, and experienced soldiers. There was no need to train them any more, they had passed the graduate course. While Churchill's point is equally notable. Two years of daily training, hard physical and mental training, will make a combat ready soldier.

[Decoy of Fenris]

57. Best watch out with talk like that.

You're right, of course, but still... Might wanna lay low.

[LanternWaste]

59. saying that Zimmerman has received a few paychecks in his short, miserable, little life is like sayi

"saying that Zimmerman should be a MMA badass after taking classes is like saying..."

Much like stating "saying that Zimmerman has received a few paychecks in his short, miserable, little life is like saying he's attempted money-fraud from inside his jail-cell...."

Wait a sec...