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[kentuck]

This message was self-deleted by its author (kentuck) on Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:07 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Lugnut]

1. Same here.

Zim created the confrontation. It never had to happen in the first place if he had listened to the dispatcher and stayed put.

[shraby]

2. I hope the jury comes down in the middle of Zimmerman's back with both feet. He killed that kid for

no reason besides his own self delusions.

[EC]

3. I'm sure the fight could have been stopped

too, without the gun being used.

[world wide wally]

73. One thing we know for sure...

Guns kill people.

[SCVDem]

215. Whatever happened to just saying

I quit! You win?

Now one person must die for fear of retaliation.

What a sick society!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

4. Bigots and gun nuts defend him. It is very sick and disgusting.

[11 Bravo]

9. I own 2 hand guns and 2 long guns. By DU standards that makes me a gun nut, and ...

I hope Zimmerman gets the maximum sentence allowable.
(I also supported the AWB, and continue to support a ban an high-capacity magazines, mandatory registration, and closing the gun show loophole. But this is DU, and I own guns ... ipso facto ... I'm a gun nut.)

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

10. I support the right to bare arms. I'm not referring to gun owners. I'm referring to gun NUTS!!! :)

[xtraxritical]

14. If they want the right to bare arms let them wear T shirts.

[ReRe]

24. +1

[wpelb]

52. I prefer tank tops

But you know me.

[maddiemom]

54. Better yet, tank tops.

[chknltl]

158. This is a bare arm on a bear...

....who bears no arms.

[Decoy of Fenris]

16. I'm a gun nut and have identified as such for a while. Screw Zimmerman.

Also, please take your broad brush somewhere where it won't hit me next time, please.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

44. If my comments don't refer to you, then you shouldn't be offended.

I'm speaking from MY perspective. No harm intended.

[Decoy of Fenris]

46. I know no offense. Just remember that some of us are gun nuts willingly and responsibly. :)

Likewise, just because we're gun nutters doesn't mean we support Zimmerman. My only request is that next time you feel like slapping around "gun nuts", some of us nutters are rather civil and are probably on your side.

[LynnTTT]

47. Gun nuts has a specific meaning now

Why not call your self a responsible gun owner, or collector?

[Decoy of Fenris]

50. Because I'm a gun nut. I am what I am.

I'm nutty about guns. I find them fascinating. I find their power both majestic and absolutely horrifying. I find their psychological impact paradoxically entrancing; few other items can instill both supreme safety and unrelenting terror. Their historical value and implications of development helped shape the modern world as a whole, and their continued existence and development is a snapshot into future technologies.


Am I a responsible gun owner? Aye. Am I a collector? Aye. Am I a target shooter? Aye. Mention to me a mint-condition Walther P-38 or AK from Stalingrad, and I giggle like a schoolgirl.

I'm a gun nut. I can't honestly say I'm anything else, nor do I particularly have an inclination to do otherwise. Call the lunatics who shoot up schools and movie theaters what they are; they're murderous psychopaths. Leave the gun nuttery to us gun nuts, who both understand and respect the power and responsibility that comes with owning a firearm.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

61. What you describe here is NOT what I am referring to.

[Decoy of Fenris]

63. Oh, aye, and I responded to you a few posts down.

I was responding to Lynn's inquery regarding that, but please, do look a few posts below for my response to you accordingly.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

69. Thanks. That helps.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

57. Depends on your definition of "gun nuts". For me, a gun nut is someone who places no limitations

on gun ownership, no regulations. For me, a gun nut is not someone who purchases a lot of guns for hunting, sport, whatever.

I do believe there's a difference.

Again, if it doesn't apply to you, then it shouldn't offend.

Nevertheless, I stand by my position: the people who tend to defend Zimmerman with the most vigor are either bigots or the "gun nuts" that I have described above.

[Decoy of Fenris]

62. Ah, see, that's a vital distinction.

One that I'm attempting to clear up. A gun nut is someone who appreciates, respects, and is responsible about guns. The people who you are describing are fanatics, devoted to their cause unconditionally. Gun Fanatics, or as Robb likes to say, Gundamentalists. You're right about the difference, but wrong in the labeling. I've been a gun nut for a decade now with no signs of stopping.

And about the Zimmerman defenders, I can't say as I know one way or another about the case; I'm not following it but on a tangent during my DU visits. I will say that actual defenders of him do tend to be fanatics, worried less about the murder and more about the consequences his conviction may inspire.

However, semantics is semantics. Just, please try to remember this conversation the next time you call a group of dumbass idiots "gun nuts." No hard feelings, of course.

[Kennah]

161. A gun nut is that which goes behind the gun bolt

From one nutter to another, cheers!

[heaven05]

48. with

11bravo as your moniker, I'm sure you respect weapons and are responsible with them. A gun nut shoots themselves and others and then lies or asks, "wha happened?" Hats off to you.

[Jackpine Radical]

137. Actually, I own a few more than that.

A couple of revolvers, a couple of shotguns, a deer rifle, a couple of .22 rifles.

Does that make me a gun nut too?

[BigD_95]

173. I dont own any guns and I dont even belive in them

so dont be so careful to judge people.

[HappyMe]

5. I agree 100%.

There is a cop that lives here in the apartment complex. He said that even if you (cop) are in a nasty shoot out situation with a perp and the perp gets killed, the officers are sent for counseling. He said that taking a life, is taking a life. No matter what, you are still pretty rattled. Zim has never showed any signs of remorse.

[11 Bravo]

11. His attorney said that Zim was so upset he gained 100 lbs, and perhaps that was punishment enough!

[HappyMe]

13. Okay then.

That's a load of crap.

[displacedtexan]

81. Didn't he and the wife blow through $300,000?

I guess he was so upset that he spent all of that donation cash on food.

GRRRRRRR!

[mimi85]

131. I remember when this all started

and he and his wife sent up a donation fund for legal expenses through PayPal. They had approx $150,000 in it, but lied and said they didn't have any money.

[aquart]

126. No.

[indepat]

130. Sounds like an out-of-control personality disorder

[calimary]

12. That's just one of many things bothering me about Zimmerman.

No remorse. No regret. Sure he did the "right thing." Fucking self-appointed vigilante Rambo/Clint Eastwood wannabe. He ALSO quite thoughtfully appointed himself judge, jury, and executioner in one fell swoop that night. Gee, how neat 'n' tidy, 'eh? Nice of him, 'eh?

This case just makes me ill. As a mother. As the mother of a son who's just a little older than Trayvon Martin was. This paranoiac KILLED an innocent young man. Snuffed him out with no remorse. Weaseling behind "I was in fear for my life..." When YOU have the gun and the other guy is unarmed, you somehow are in fear for your life, asshole?

Good Grief. And I am seriously afraid that this schmuck will still somehow beat the rap. He's a murderer! Flat-out! And the minute he mumbled into the phone - "these fucking punks, they always get away," that seems to me at least, to be a fairly immediate pre-meditation. Seems he judged and decided that this fucking punk was gonna be different because he WASN'T going to get away, and he, Zimmerman, intended to make sure of that. Sure sounds like malice aforethought to me. Granted, I am not a lawyer and certainly no legal expert, so my assessment is probably full of holes, but that's still how I feel about it.

[HappyMe]

17. He is a murderer.

I'm afraid that he will walk. It's also frightening to think how many more Zimmerman types are out there.

[calimary]

22. And that upsets me even more. They'll all take it as validation. And justification.

They'll figure they just got a free pass to gun down anybody whose looks they don't like. That WILL be their takeaway from this, if Zimmerman is acquitted. We will likely see more of this. That concerns me HUGELY.

[lumpy]

23. You are better than most lawyers. Most lawyers will do and say any damn thing to win the case.

This trial has proved this.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

39. "Most lawyers will do and say any damn thing"? Not the reluctant prosecutor.

[Whiskeytide]

93. Is it hard for you to lift that big brush...?

... "Most" lawyers won't do that. Most lawyers will argue the evidence and facts in the most positive way they can to represent their client, all within the parameters of their ethical obligations to their profession and the court. If you have a lawyer who doesn't do that, you need a new lawyer.

Are there some unethical lawyers out there? Sure. Unethical doctors, contractors and Amway salesmen, too. But it ain't "most" of them.

[davidpdx]

139. Well put

It's bad enough parents have to warn there kids about strangers abducting them, but then to also have to explain there are people going around with guns shooting kids for no other reasons than they "suspect" the kid is a criminal is tough.

[calimary]

199. There it is. Right there.

[southerncrone]

152. I get the impression Zim has something very wrong w/him.

As you stated, no remorse, no regret, no emotion. He jumps up like a school kid whenever witnesses are asked to identify him or the jury is coming or going...like a little boy trying too hard. His social skills seem to be off. Seems he has either lived a life of privilege or been ignored or abandoned. I've noted his father has seldom been in the courtroom. There are middle-aged men who say he was "like a son" to them...I suspect they were "like fathers" to him because he doesn't have a good relationship w/his own or he needs a "keeper". John Donnelly spent over $2000 on food & clothes for him to wear to court....why him instead of Zim's parents!?!?? He has 150 hrs at a community college! Most BS degrees only require 120 hrs! He wants to be (pick one):

1. attorney
2. judge
3. prosecutor
4. police officer

Yet he works in the mortgage industry in sales?
Reminds me of an 8 yr old who wants to be EVERYTHING when they grow up....very immature.
Thank goodness VA would not hire him as a policeman. Suspect they KNOW him.
Taking MMA classes for over a yr & still no skills???
I read he admitted he was on meds for ADHD and depression & he told the police that night. Hmmm.
He called Trayvon a kid TWICE in the 911 call that night, so he already KNEW he was a kid! (Haven't heard prosecution even mention this...hoping it comes out in closing, but not holding my breath.)
Wish they would have given him psychological testing b/4 trial. Maybe he is simply a sociopath. Whatever, I feel he is messed up on many levels!

[brush]

189. My feelings also. Good post. nt

[live love laugh]

207. "....he judged and decided that this 'fucking punk'... WASN'T going to get away..."

So true. That should be the prosecution's closing argument. Well said.

[maddiemom]

59. I knew that about cops, mostly from TV until a college friend of my daughter's

who's a city cop had such an incident. Come to think of it, a private citizen just blows it off? If Zimmerman never felt the need for counseling on his own, that pretty much says it all.

[Jenoch]

77. I haven't seen him show any kind of emotion.

That seems like PTSD or depression or both, at least to me.

I have seen defendents smile wkwardly in court or in the perp walk, but that doesn't necessarily mean they think the proceedings are funny. People show stress in different ways.

[HappyMe]

79. PTSD?

From all his time in the war.....oh, wait.


He killed somebody. He doesn't appear at all to give a fuck about that fact. Stress? Poor thing. He brought this on himself by shooting somebody.

[uppityperson]

6. It amazes me also how the one who shot/killed was not tested for drugs but treated with kid gloves

[HappyMe]

7. Yes, that too.

[Skittles]

21. OH and to be told on DU there was no REASON to drug test him

as if stalking and killing someone who was just walking down the street is normal behavior

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

37. And given 100% benefit of the doubt. I'm shocked that it's here at DU. I didn't expect so many

Zimmerman supporters here. It's been an eye-opening experience for me. I haven't felt this way since the 2007-2008 Democratic Primaries were.

[ReRe]

41. That whole Police Dept should be sued...

... GZ should have been taken STRAIGHT to the hospital to get all of his "wounds" documented, should have had an X-ray and maybe even a CAT scan of that thick skull... Just to cover themselves (the police dept.)! Had GZ had an untreated concussion, he could have sued the pants off the Sanford Police Dept. He Hospital should have drawn his blood and checked for a full drug panel, as well as full check up on his physical health at the time. And when they treated and cleared him, he should have been taken straight back to jail and locked the fuck up.

And why couldn't the state have found a better pathologist to examine/autopsy the body of Travon Martin. That pathologist needs to be fired, if he's working for the State of Florida. It is clear that he did not perform a proper autopsy on Trayvon Martin. Hell, I would strip him of his license!

Further, I think it was very inconsiderate for the city officials to run that tape for the parents to listen to, when they had not had a chance to mourn the loss of that boy, especially when Zimmerman was running free. And if it was the family's idea to hear the tape, then they should have been advised to have an attorney present, or that they would not let them hear it unless they had an attorney present.

[uppityperson]

43. Seriously. They didn't even try to cover themmselves (police dept). And the rest of what you write.

It isn't JUST that a teen was killed, but the whole thing.

[FarPoint]

176. This Police Department has preformed

way below the standard of service. Is there such a term of malpractice for LEO? If so, they qualify.

[handmade34]

8. passions

running high in my household... I can't listen much anymore, my partner is glued to the computer and giving me highlights...

this is now much more than Zimmerman and Trayvon... 'Zimmerman' is much of what is going wrong in our society; irrational behavior, profiling, lax gun laws, ignorance and much more... I have no patience or sympathy for Zimmerman or his ilk

[Whiskeytide]

20. Everything in your post is spot on ....

... but it is spot on regardless of whether Zimmerman is convicted or not. Those are all serious sociological problems, and they desperately need to be addressed.

But I fear a "not guilty" verdict - which I believe is coming - will supply a false vindication for "his ilk" who harbor - secretly and some not so secretly - approval of those attitudes, and the judgement of the public will be to shrug their shoulders and say "well, I guess its okay to gun up, profile, stalk, confront and kill someone now... what are the Kardashians doing tonight?" And, alas, not much gets accomplished concerning those problems.

Too much baggage that doesn't belong is riding on the outcome of this single case. Too many are way too invested in it, and many for the wrong reasons.

[cntrygrl]

86. I see your point BUT

Zim had the police on his side from the very beginning AND his daddy being a retired judge most certainly, IMHO, was/is a huge benefit.

I certainly hope Martins parents will be able to get him with a wrongful death conviction.

[Whiskeytide]

90. I think that's much more likely...

... than a criminal conviction. The HO Association would be a defendant as well since Zimmerman was potentially its agent, and they probably have liability insurance. A very good case can be made that Zimmerman was negligent or perhaps even wanton, and in a civil case it is much more significant that Zimmerman's conduct brought about the altercation in the first place. That fact doesn't fit very well - technically, at least - into the legal elements of the criminal prosecution.

And you're probably right. "Who" you know is always important in matters like this.

[ceonupe]

133. They already settled with insurance making the payment

It was for less than 1$ million (not published)
Takeout 1/3 to atty
Take out atty expenses
Then take out taxes and you are under $500k.

Not a lot at all.

[Whiskeytide]

179. I had not heard that.

Thanks for that info. Shouldn't be taxes on a wrongful death recovery in FL. Also, if no suit was filed, there won't be much in expenses. But lawyer fee was prob 40%.

[GreenStormCloud]

214. Z's father was not and is not a judge.

That is a DU myth. Z's father was a magistrate in Virginia. That is a minor judicial official, much like a Justice of the Peace.

[Yavin4]

15. THANK YOU!! How can you claim self-defense when you intiate the contact?

As I said in other posts, if Zimmerman walks, then you can legally murder someone in FLA. Just stalk them, engage them in a confrontation. When they fight back, shoot them and claim self defense.

[Bonduel]

208. It doesn't matter that Zimmerman initiated contact or got our of his car

and followed Martin in the eyes of the law. That would not give Martin the right to jump him and start beating the hell out of him including bashing his head against the concrete. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE FOR A SECOND THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED. But I believe you need to show that Martin didn't attack Zimmerman and that his life was not in danger. They need to convince the jury that Zimmerman's life was not in danger.

If I were on the jury and my belief at the end of the trial was that:

1) Zimmerman is a rascist
2) Zimmerman initiated contact
3) Zimmerman followed Martin even after being told by the dispatcher not to
4) Zimmerman somehow lost Martin while following him
5) Martin surprised Zimmerman and jumped him
6) Martin wrestled Zimmerman to the ground and got on to of him
7) Zimmerman feared for his life.
8) Zimmerman was able to pull his gun and shoot Martin

then I would find him not guilty of murder.

The thing is I don't know for sure what happened and either does anyone else but Zimmerman and Martin. But this is not a moral trial it is a murder trial and based on that I think he is found not guilty of murder.

[jtuck004]

18. I am astounded that the prosecution is not focusing more on the time before the "fight".

That whole stalking thing needs to be torn apart, but even now one of the idiot prosecutors is bringing out a dummy, then sitting on it and hitting it, giving the defence the opportunity to do it as well.

Since it appears that the fight is what the defence wants to concentrate on, they seem to be playing into the defender’s hand.


Makes me wonder if this is a sham trial, done to pacify the public.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

40. The relative inaction of the reluctant prosecutor may let him walk.

[MH1]

222. I agree that it is an attempt at a sham trial, but no one in their right mind

would think that the public will be 'pacified' if Z walks.

More likely they are already planning how they will play the resulting unrest for political advantage.

[libodem]

19. I see Zimmerman

As the aggressor and he needed a cover story. He made one up. I think he likely shot Travon at close range straight through the heart, after tracking him down. Cold blood.

Z was hopped up on Ritilan, making him angry and aggressive. He was tranquilized by Xanax, removing the anxieties related to blatant disregard for human life. He was a ticking time bomb of personal failure, looking for someone to take it out on.

If anyone has ever taken the most basic self defence course you learn never to let your opponent get you on the ground. That's the whole purpose of that "stance" you see fighters strike. That forward foot and the bent knees. It's meant to guard your balance. The next thing you learn is not to let somebody get a head shot in at you. You keep your FN eyes open and your FN hands up. (if you are not holding a gun)

When your opponent, attempts to take a swing at you, you see it coming and you move in and grab that swinging arm by the wrist. (if you are not holding a gun) You hold on to the attacker by his wrist and move in closer, it is actually harder for them to hit you, and start pulling that arm up behind them. If they continue to struggle you pull the arm up harder until they comply. While you have them you press into the back of their knee with yours and drop them on the ground. And yes you should be shouting for assistance. You drop the person on the ground with their arm behind their back and straddle them up high on their back, with their arms pinned. It's all leverage and using the persons own size and weight against them. It can be learned in one hour per week in 6 weeks.

[calimary]

25. Wow - a MOST valuable post, libodem!

Your conclusions at the start seem most reasonable and accurate to me, as applied to the circumstances here. And your suggested tactics are VERY valuable. And if this jackass was supposedly studying self-defense, for what? Several hours three times a week for how many months? SURELY he would have known this.

No. I think he INTENDED to do this. With malice aforethought. The instant he spotted Trayvon in the dark, and made his snap-judgment. He clearly just made up his mind what was what, in that instant, and decided for himself - one-man judge, jury, and executioner that he was - that this was one "fucking punk" who wasn't gonna get away - and he himself was just the man to make sure of it.

It just makes me sick.

[handmade34]

33. well

even if one gives Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt (literally if acquitted)...

the reality is that he still initiated the whole thing! ...even IF he didn't intend to outright kill Trayvon; he wanted to keep him from getting away... all the same to me... makes me angry and very, very sad

[libodem]

38. With malice of forethought

As far as I'm concerned. In cold blood.

[tiny elvis]

100. aforethought nt

[Jim9090]

82. Nice post

Except Zimmerman wasn't a failure, he actually was a very motivated guy with a future in law enforcement. If you watched the trial you would have seen police testify to the fact that the only reason Zimmerman was turned down for a job as an officer was he had bad credit.

It was a technicality, and as soon as he fixed his credit and reapplied they would have hired him. That's sworn testimony. And before you jump on him for having bad credit, keep in mind that is something many people have gone through in the past five years in particular. No different than being turned down for a mortgage application, or an apartment rental, and having to improve your score before you be accepted.

[hrmjustin]

83. Do you think Zimmerman is innocent?

[Jim9090]

99. Yes

Sorry for the delayed response, I was heading home from work.

I believe that the majority of the way Zimmerman described the events are true, and that the entire thing was a tragedy. Prior to the trial I was leaning toward Zimmerman but wanted to wait and see the real witnesses and evidence before I decided anything. Media reports on these things rarely reflect the evidence early on, they tend to just throw everything against the wall to see if it sticks, and I know that from seeing other trials develop in the past.

After watching the trial I feel very confidently that this was a tragedy. I think Trayvon was a misguided young man who made a bad decision, and Zimmerman was scared and reacted. He only fired one shot, and in many cases people walk away from something like that. It was very sad that in this case Trayvon did not.

I wish he had for his families sake and for Zimmerman's sake. I don't believe that Zimmerman will have an easy time living with this, and not because of fallout, but because killing someone justified or no is never a good thing or something that a sane person should be happy about.

[elehhhhna]

103. how is T misguided and what was his bad decision?

can tu clarify that?

[Jim9090]

109. Sure

As I stated earlier I believe ZImmerman's version of events after following the trial to be mostly true. Therefore I believe that Trayvon did sucker punch Zimmerman, and beat him while on top of him, including smashing his head into the ground.

Witness testimony supports that, as does ballistic evidence (and testimony) regarding the likely position Trayvon was in when shot.

Given that I believe that to be true, it would mean that his bad decision was assaulting someone. I do not believe that Trayvon's intent was to beat Zimmerman to death. He might have stopped five seconds later for all we know, but Zimmerman couldn't know that and in that position who could ask anyone to risk it.

So, tragedy. One that could have been avoided in multiple ways by either side, but in the end was not avoided. It is terrible, but Zimmerman is by no means a dangerous man or evil...though I would wager he will need some serious therapy for a while after this.

[hrmjustin]

110. The man is a murderer! I do not feel sorry for him.

[Hoyt]

114. Not dangerous? Heck, he was training to kill with his hands, and carried a gun

in case that didn't work, not to mention history of violence and prescription drug use that alter judgement. Nice, stable, gun toting, bigot if you ask me.

[elehhhhna]

115. k, thanks

but you are insane

[Skittles]

145. he STALKED AND KILLED AN INNOCENT PERSON

what part of that do you not understand???

[Voice for Peace]

146. I have trouble with understanding why in the world Trayvon would have attacked Zimmerman

when he was on his way home with iced tea and skittles
to watch a football game on TV. Around dinnertime.
Talking to his friend on the phone.

Why would he suddenly decide to attack Zimmerman
out of nowhere? Can you explain that?

[lolly]

155. How do you sucker punch someone

Who is following and watching you?

You sucker punch someone who is not aware you are there.

Zimmerman was stalking Martin and relaying his movements to the dispatcher--you know, the one who told him to get the hell back in his truck and stop playing police man and let the grown up professionals deal with "f**ing punk" who had the temerity to be walking home at 7:15 in the evening.

[Kennah]

165. When Zimmerman started to pursue Trayvon Martion, his mantle of innocence collapsed.

Being armed and playing neighborhood watch Rambo wannabe while watching people, he was relatively harmless. When he decided to pursue a kid, whom he had observe commit NO CRIME, Zimmerman became the aggressor.

Armed with a gun and pursuing someone without ANY remote semblance of justification, Zimmerman started down a very narrow and dangerous path. Sadly it ended in the worst possible way.

I have a license to carry, I carry, and I have been through over 100 hours of advanced firearms training at Firearms Academy of Seattle. I did a class with the late Jim Cirillo. Also did the classroom only portion of Mas Ayoob's LFI-1 class.

If I saw a guy armed with a gun come crashing through the glass window of a store front at 11:30 PM, carrying a bag with cash and merchandise spilling out of it, there's nothing to justify me pursuing him. Period. Get to cover and get innocents I'm responsible for to cover, draw my gun, call 911, and be a good witness.

There is absolutely NOTHING to justify George Zimmerman's actions. He is certainly guilty of manslaughter, and likely guilty of murder.

[brush]

193. Naivete is a wonderful thing

Wouldn't a straddling Martin have blocked zimmy's arm from reaching for the gun under and behind his hip, because that's exactly where Martin's knee and thigh would be if he were the one doing the straddling. If what zimmerman alleges is true (not my belief), his arms may have been free to move in front of a straddler's thighs but that would be it.

He would have had to reach around and under Martin's knee and thigh and under his own hip to get to the gun tucked into the rear attached holster. That would not only take arms about a foot longer but arms of Herculean strength to lift up his big body, weighed down even more by Martin's) enough to get the gun out from under all that weight.

And wasn't wannabe boy also taking MMA classes 3 times a week for a year? Didn't he learn anything about leverage and how to use his weigh advantage instead of just allowing a teen boy who he outweighed by 40 lbs, and who he had superior adult male upper body strength over, to just pummel him like a helpless rag doll without any offering any resistance?

And after all that alleged head bashing on concrete, he just needed a band-aid for treatment, no concussion, no skull fracture, no hemotoma, no blood on the sidewalk?

Sounds like he conked himself on the back of the head and nose with his own gun after he realized that he had fucked up big time by killing the kid instead of making the "heroic" citizen's arrest he had envisioned.

That would explain how it was his own blood on his own gun, not Martin's.

Sorry, zimmy's story does not compute. And neither does your support for that killer.

[niyad]

197. oh, my, this post was even funnier than your first. again, thanks for the laughs.

[olegramps]

200. Everyone has a right to their opinions, but are yours actually backed up by the facts.

We have only one person's testimony as to what actually happened. That person is alive, the other dead. As to the testimony, it is totally contradictory. I put much credence in the testimony of his girl fiend who the defense attempted to discredit. The questioning of her for over five hours was unreasonable.

[Jim9090]

212. Thank you for being civil

but I disagree.

I don't understand putting credence in the testimony of his friend. I don't see her having any issue lying at all. Just a difference of opinion on that particular witness.

I like the bits of evidence that have no motive one way or the other to lie, like witnesses that were not related to Zimmerman/Trayvon or ballistic evidence. When that all came together, and didn't contradict Zimmerman's version of events, my confidence in his story grew.

It's all good though, there's no sense in us beating each other up over it. Really isn't. The fact is the jury will probably decide by tomorrow what the verdict is, and we'll all live with it and get on with our lives. Some of us will think justice was done, and some of us won't, but life ain't fair. Never has been, so we'll suck it up and move on and the emotional experience of it all will continue to forge who we are and who we become.

[olegramps]

229. After five hours of cross-examination they were unable to shake her basic facts.

It difficult for me to accept that the testimony of the so-called witnesses, which is contradictory, would be considered factual while her testimony isn't. The fact is that she was a very reluctant witness, and I can see why many fail to come forward since their word along with the character will be challenged, adds a degree of credibility. I must also include that there is a strong racial element that can't be neglected.

[Jim9090]

231. True

There definitely is a racial element. That is tough to avoid. It really is a rough situation and I certainly take your points to heart on some testimony being "valid" while her's may be looked at less seriously for reasons that aren't really fair.

I guess everyone looks at things through their particular lens and the challenge, as should be always, is to try to put yourself in the person's shoes and not just disregard what they say because of the way it's said, or some "cultural" difference. There's a lot of people in the world and if you don't try to do that your view of things is always going to be extremely narrow, and the truth elusive.

I feel for the jury here. Not an easy job they have.

[tiny elvis]

104. go ahead and describe the misguidance of martin, as 'i believe' and 'i feel'

are not arguments
nor is 'he only fired one shot'

[hrmjustin]

108. "Trayvon was misguided" I disagree completely. I think Zimmerman was the aggressor and should go to

jail.

[magical thyme]

113. so you think Zimmerman followed Martin behind the buildings to figure out where he was

because after living there and patrolling 3 streets for 3 years, he still didn't know the names of the streets, and despite the fact that the numbers are in the *fronts* of the houses, not the back.

And you think Martin, who was scared and running, jumped him from behind a nonexistent bush.

And that Martin punched him in the nose, but didn't get any blood on his hand.

And that Martin, who never had any training in self defense, slammed his head into concrete 20-30 times, inflicting 2 tiny cuts and no other apparent damage.

And that Martin held his hand over his mouth and nose, and still didn't get any blood or saliva his hand.

And that Zimmerman managed to scream for help while simultaneously swallowing his own blood *and* being smothered by Martin.

And that while all that was happening, Martin "saw" Zimmerman's gun holstered *inside* his pants and *behind* his back, and grabbed for it.

And only then did Zimmerman somehow reach around behind his back while pinned to the ground, and pull his gun out and fire at point blank range into Martin, killing him.

With only one shot, after all.

Hey, it's a free country. If you want to believe that pack of lies, by all means do.

Personally, I think once the judge allowed the jury to know that Martin had a trace of THC in his blood, the Prosecution should have been able to mention Zimmerman's prescriptions for several drugs *known* to induce violent behavior.

And personally, I believe that when Zimmerman man said, "those fucking goons, they always get away," he decided this one *wasn't* going to get away and he was going to get him. He may or may not have intended to kill him. I'm betting he already had his hand on his gun, if not already drawn, and figured he'd hold him at gunpoint. That things didn't work out that way and that an unarmed, unsuspecting teenager found himself fighting a losing battle for his life against a stupid, hateful, bigoted, drug-addled, violent, gun-armed wanna-be cop.

[lumpy]

116. I am convince some people have an agenda in supporting Zimmerman by wanting to accept his

embellished stories; either that or they have no concept of common sense.

[BigD_95]

174. WHAT??

"embellished stories"

you mean the same stories pretty much all the witness agree with and evidence supports? embellished ?? ha ha

[Vattel]

118. Pure speculation on your part.

"I'm betting he already had his hand on his gun, if not already drawn, and figured he'd hold him at gunpoint. That things didn't work out that way and that an unarmed, unsuspecting teenager found himself fighting a losing battle for his life against a stupid, hateful, bigoted, drug-addled, violent, gun-armed wanna-be cop."

Zimmerman expressed relief when told by Serino that the whole thing was video-taped. That would been an unlikely reaction if he had his gun drawn early on or had initiated the fight. Zimmerman's injuries are consistent with his claim that Martin hit him in the nose and slammed his head on the concrete (though not 20-30 times). Martin was into fighting. Martin had plenty of time to get to his house while Zimmerman talked to the police dispatcher, but he didn't end up very far from Zimmerman. Martin approached Zimmerman's car and so didn't seem particularly scared. If Zimmerman had been so determined to not let Martin get away, he wouldn't have wasted his time talking to the police as Martin ran. Jaentel's interview with the state attorney reveals her to be willing to lie on behalf of Martin.

Do I need to go on? My point is not that Zimmerman is innocent of a crime. My point is that there is loads of reasonable doubt as to his guilt and so he should be acquitted.

[magical thyme]

120. there is no proof that Martin approached Zimmerman's car,

only Zimmerman's claim.

"Martin was into fighting." "Martin had plenty of time to get to his house while Zimmerman talked to the police dispatcher, but he didn't end up very far from Zimmerman." Now who's speculating?

"Zimmerman expressed relief when told by Serino that the whole thing was video-taped." Zimmerman told more than one lie. That could have been another lie.

"Jaentel's interview with the state attorney reveals her to be willing to lie on behalf of Martin." Seriously? Care to share the quote?

Zimmerman has been caught in a string of lies all intended to make him look like the victim, when in fact he stalked and killed an unarmed teenager. Zimmerman made 5 911 calls that we know were to report "suspicious" black males. That is not speculation. That is a fact. We don't know what the other 45 911 calls were.

The HOA settled a wrongful death suit with Martin's parents. That is a fact.

Zimmerman trained in MMM 3x/week for a year. That is a fact.

Zimmerman's lawyers knowingly violated sequestration rules and brought contaminated witnesses to testify. That is a fact.

Zimmerman's own wife won't or can't testify on his behalf. That is a fact.

Zimmerman has a history of assault against weaker opponents. That is a fact.

[Lurks Often]

123. "Zimmerman expressed relief when told by Serino that the whole thing was video-taped"

that would take one hell of an actor to pull off in front of a trained police investigator and I don't see Zimmerman being a good enough actor to pull that off.

That, in conjunction with the State's inability to explain Zimmerman's injuries (regardless of how severe you think they are0, are probably going to play a major factor in the jury's decision.

[magical thyme]

125. pathological liars have no problem bluffing.

It's not as though Zimmerman has expressed any remorse over stalking and killing an unarmed teen.

There are any number of ways Zimmerman could have gotten his injuries. He could have slipped and fallen over backwards onto the concrete walkway. He could have tried to grab at Marten, and Marten could have punched him. He could have been running in the dark and run right into a wall.

The prosecution does not have to prove how Zimmerman got his injuries. They have to prove ill will, callous disregard for life, etc. Zimmerman's repeated 911 calls about "suspicious" black men, his statement that "these goons always get away," his following Martin, in violation of the watch rules and against the advice of the 911 operator, all point to ill will.

And the defense has to demonstrate Zimmerman's supposed fear of an unarmed teen was *reasonable.* You can't provoke a fight and then cry self-defense because you are losing the fight. And fights result in punched noses every day, without the fighters resorting to guns. Hell, a co-worker got in a brawl with an aluminum ladder last week and ended up with worse injuries than Zimmerman.

[Lurks Often]

127. The inability of the State to explain away Zimmerman's injuries

bolsters the self defense argument.

Getting punched in the nose does NOT meet the threshold of a reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm. However having one's head struck against the pavement does meet that threshold.

So if the State can not give a feasible, alternate means of how those injuries occurred and if one of the top forensic experts in the world testifies that having your head struck against the pavement can lead to death, then the claim of self defense can not be ruled out.

[quakerboy]

183. Self defense is not an argument if you are the instigator of the conflict.

If I start following a woman alone at night on a dark street, and she pulls out mace and says "stay away from me", so I shoot her, because now Im scared, is that self defense on my part?

If Martin struck Zimmerman, that is self defense. He was a teen, walking home alone, and some wierdo starts trailing him in a vehicle, then gets out and approaches on foot. And eventually shoots him. Dead.

[Lurks Often]

185. Under Florida law you are wrong

Martin had no right to strike Zimmerman first unless the State can prove that Zimmerman made threats and either had the gun out or merely displayed (something that can't be proven) and by knocking Zimmerman down and striking his head against the pavement, Martin escalated the fight.

Find the Florida law that says you can not follow someone and talk to them.

[Bonduel]

223. If she has a pipe and starts beating you in the ribs and on the head then yes it would be self

defense to shoot her. Just because you follow someone doesn't give you the right to beat the crap out of someone to the point where they fear for their life.

[Vattel]

138. Pathological liars have no problem bluffing? That is really desperate.

Keep in mind that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

[quakerboy]

181. The simplest explanation in this case being

Zimmerman, the man with a cause, training, and armaments, made a huge mistake, and agressively approached, instigated a conflict, and eventually murdered a young man trying to get home with some skittles

[Voice for Peace]

148. ZIMMERMANS INJURIES!!! are NOT significant injuries!

In any given day I have more bumps and
bruises and cuts and scrapes on me than he
had on his head.

Sorry his nose was out of joint. The gun
could easily have done that. Or Trayvon's
elbow or hand as he struggled to get
away.

[Lurks Often]

184. And you keep missing the point and what the law says.

Zimmerman DOES NOT HAVE TO WAIT TO BE SERIOUSLY INJURED, he only has to have a reasonable fear of it happening. It is up to the jury to determine if that fear was reasonable and if they believe the medical experts that testified that having his head struck against the pavement could lead to serious injuries, then they will find him not guilty.

[Voice for Peace]

190. no, I'm not missing the point of the law.. that's not the point

the point is his description of the event, vs the
sketchy evidence that simply doesn't match his
description of what happened. my opinion.
Seriously undermines his credibility.

Everyone on the defense side is making a huge
deal about these injuries as if they were major
proof that Trayvon had been violently bashing
his head and punching him. I don't think the
jury will see it that way.

[calimary]

124. Indeed, there were so many inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story, and his behavior

strongly suggests he's unrepentant. So what if he gets off - and then figures that this is "God's will," too, as he originally told that-guy-whose-name-rhymes-with-Vanity on Pox Noise. I suspect with that mindset he will interpret an acquittal as an affirmation and validation that he did the "right" thing.

Also heard some interesting speculation - yes, SPECULATION, on Randi Rhodes' show today from at least two people, one of whom was a combat veteran who called in to talk about the effect of firing guns at close range - including the gun that Zimmerman used that night. The caller said that was one of many guns with which he had quite a bit of experience. Both callers I heard described the very close quarters when Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin were scuffling on the ground and Zimmerman's on the bottom and only has a few inches of room to shoot someone on top of him as Trayvon was at that moment (whose motions by then were indicative of someone who was trying to pull away, according to the callers and some of the testimony offered in court). The callers both pointed out that the recoil from that close in, in which Zimmerman's gun hand was presumably at chest level with the length of barrel that would put it somewhat parallel to Zimmerman's face, would smack the barrel of that gun directly into his nose, and very likely knocking the back of his head farther back, and sharply, on the concrete.

That, in turn, would be consistent with the wounds described in testimony - in which Zimmerman's injuries were described by the medical examiner who examined him - as minimal, and not consistent with a severely broken nose and maybe a cracked or broken skull in the back plus much more profuse bleeding, or a concussion. NONE of which Zimmerman had. Such wounds as Zimmerman described would have necessitated stitches. NONE were necessary. He didn't even seek immediate medical treatment. And he wound up with a band-aid on the back of his head and nose wounds that sealed up rather quickly thereafter. Excuse me? You don't come away from having your head "bashed 20 or 30 times into concrete" and come away with a freakin' BAND-AID!!!!!

Further - how could one conclude that Trayvon punched him in the nose when there was NO blood found on his hands OR his knuckles, Zimmerman's or otherwise? Faces bleed easily and a lot because there are so many tiny capillaries feeding vitally important things like the mouth, lips, nose, and eyes, and surrounding skin. And with the interiors of the mouth and nose and mucus membranes - those capillaries are all VERY close to the surface and thereby much easier to break.

I just don't see ANY indication or evidence that supports Zimmerman's being acquitted. NONE. He decided on the spot that this was a nogoodnik who needed a different fate than those "fucking punks" who "always get away." Seems an awful lot like malice aforethought to me.

[Vattel]

136. I am afraid I have to disagree with almost everything you said.

"There is no proof that Martin approached Zimmerman's car."

My reply: There is evidence, namely, Zimmerman told the police dispatcher that Martin was approaching him. There is a recording of that. Why would Zimmerman have lied about that?

"'Martin was into fighting.' 'Martin had plenty of time to get to his house while Zimmerman talked to the police dispatcher, but he didn't end up very far from Zimmerman.' Now who's speculating?"

My reply: I am not speculating. In case you didn't notice, there is evidence that Martin was into fighting. And it has been clearly established that Martin had plenty of time to reach home.

"'Jaentel's interview with the state attorney reveals her to be willing to lie on behalf of Martin.' Seriously? Care to share the quote?"

My reply: You should listen to the whole interview, but here is a quote: Jaentel said "yeah" in response to the state attorney's asking her if Martin said that the guy [i.e., Zimmerman] was coming at him like he was going to hit him. She withdrew the claim after being reminded that she was not supposed to lie. It was really funny.

"Zimmerman has been caught in a string of lies all intended to make him look like the victim, when in fact he stalked and killed an unarmed teenager."

My reply: You assume that they are lies as opposed to inaccuracies one might expect when someone describes a traumatic event of the sort in question. LEOs know that people never get everything accurate in such circumstances. That being said, Zimmerman's story seems to me to be too perfect, and that makes me suspicious that he might be lying. Again, I am not saying that there is no evidence of Zimmerman's guilt. I am only saying that there is reasonable doubt.

Zimmerman made 5 911 calls that we know were to report "suspicious" black males. That is not speculation. That is a fact. We don't know what the other 45 911 calls were."

My reply: Excuse him for trying to prevent crime in his neighborhood. Not even evidence of racism let alone evidence that he murdered Martin.

"Zimmerman trained in MMM 3x/week for a year. That is a fact."

My reply: And his trainer said he had no athletic ability and hadn't even learned to throw a punch.

"Zimmerman's lawyers knowingly violated sequestration rules and brought contaminated witnesses to testify. That is a fact.
Zimmerman's own wife won't or can't testify on his behalf. That is a fact."

My reply: Neither of these "facts" are evidence of Zimmerman's guilt.

"Zimmerman has a history of assault against weaker opponents. That is a fact."

My reply: Not a fact. Only disputed claims.

[neohippie]

218. Didn't Zimmerman have law enforcement training

Wouldn't he know that the police might use lying as a tactic in their interrogation...

There are too many inconsistencies with Zimmermans multiple accounts of what happened, his story changes.

He says that Martin was reaching in his waistband for something, would someone who thinks that the suspect that they are pursuing might be armed, get out of their car without any fear of being shot?

He says Martin jumped out from behind him and sucker punched him, without any conversation before hand, yet Jenteal's testimony challenges that.

He said Martin, was on top of his chest, so his gun would be beneath him in the middle of his back holstered, how would Martin have seen his gun and reached for it, when he was supposedly either banging his head into the concrete, or had a brick as Zimmerman said he thought he had some weapon, or if Martin was putting his hands over his nose and mouth as Zimmerman said, how did Martin also see this holstered weapon beneath Zimmerman's back and grab for it, also there is no DNA from Zimmerman on Martin's hands, the holster or the gun?

Just too many inconsistencies to believe Zimmerman is telling the truth and even the physical evidence doesn't jive with his multiple stories

[brush]

195. YES! Very good post

You pointed out so many of zimmy's lies and the inconsistencies. Hope the prosecutor can do as well in his closing.

[lolly]

156. Source?

How would we know why he was turned down? I would assume the application materials would be confidential. They wouldn't even be released at trial unless the judge considered them relevant.

The guy has loser wannabee written all over him. I can't imagine another police officer wanting to rely on him.


And, sorry, but a judge's son who attends college for, what, 10 years and can't manage to get a degree? Yeah, he had a future in law enforcement like Sarah Palin has a future in nuclear physics.

[GreenStormCloud]

216. Z's father was not and is not a judge.

That is just a DU myth. Z's father was a Virginia magistrate, which is like a Justice of the Peace in other states.

[Just Saying]

228. I don't think it's a myth as much as confusion over the term.

Zimmerman himself wrote on his application to become a Sherriff that his father was a former magistrate judge for the Virginia Supreme Court.

And in some states magistrates do hear small cases.

His father was a full time magistrate working on Virginia's court system from 2000 until 2006.

This information on magistrates should clear up some of the confusion:

Magistrate System

About
In many instances, a citizen's first contact with Virginia’s Judicial System comes through the office of the Magistrate. A principal function of the magistrate is to provide an independent, unbiased review of complaints of criminal conduct brought to the office by law enforcement or the general public. Magistrate duties include issuing various types of processes such as arrest warrants, summonses, bonds, search warrants, subpoenas, and certain civil warrants. Magistrates also conduct bail hearings in instances in which an individual is arrested on a warrant charging him or her with a criminal offense. Magistrates provide services on an around-the-clock basis, conducting hearings in person or through the use of videoconferencing systems.

The magistrate system for the Commonwealth is divided into eight regions, and each magistrate is authorized to exercise his or her powers throughout the magisterial region for which he or she is appointed. Each region is comprised of between three and five judicial districts. There are magistrate offices located throughout Virginia, including at least one in each of Virginia’s 32 judicial districts.

http://www.courts.state.va.us/courtadmin/aoc/djs/programs/mag/about.html

[niyad]

196. oh yeah, except for that whole "assaulting an officer with violence thing"

seriously, though, thanks for the laughs. sorely needed today.

[defacto7]

160. If he was on Ritalin it implies he was ADHD.

If he has ADHD or AADHD then Ritalin which is a type of amphetamine has the opposite effect that it has on most people; It actually calms you down. If he has ADHD then he could be very aggressive or angry if he had not taken the Ritalin. Amphetamines calm down someone with ADHD.

Then again, if he was taking Ritalin for the effect and doesn't have ADHD, then you would be quite correct.

Just adding clarification on the effects of Ritalin.

[Lex]

26. I think this is the way the jury will analyze the evidence too. nt

[Skeeter Barnes]

27. I agree. I don't understand how you can get out of your car and then claim self defense.

He could have driven away instead of getting out. I don't carry because I don't have a permit for it but I would avoid confrontation instead of seeking it out. Our carry laws shouldn't allow people to go on armed patrol. Armed defense should be a very last resort, not something that allows us to confront strangers walking down the sidewalk.

[Blue Bike]

28. How do you know Zimmerman got out of his car after the 9-11 dispatcher's advice?

Does the 9-11 call transcript even hint to it?

[liberal_at_heart]

35. The dispatcher told him not to follow. Whether he was in his truck at the time or not, he

should not have been following Trayvon. He disobeyed the dispatcher. He is at fault for what happened.

[FBaggins]

188. Untrue.

"Disobeyed" leaves the reader with the impression that we're talking about the police telling him not to do something.

A 911 dispatcher is not a law enforcement officer (and thus can't tell you anything that need to be "obeyed&quot and "we don't need you to do that" is not at all the same thing as "don't follow him".

He may or may not be at fault for what happened, but it has nothing at all to do with whether or not he "obeyed" the dispatcher.

[handmade34]

36. moot point

he got out of his car... bad move at anytime in this case!

7:09:34 - 7:13:41 — George Zimmerman calls the Sanford Police Department (SPD) from his truck; total time of the call is 4 minutes 7 seconds.[15]
7:11:33 — Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Trayvon Martin is running.
7:11:59 — In reply to the dispatcher's question, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman says, "Yes." Dispatcher states, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replies, "OK."
7:12:00 - 7:12:59 — The girl calls Martin again at some point during this minute.[16]
7:13:10 — Zimmerman says he does not know where Martin is.
7:13:41 — Zimmerman's call to Sanford police ends.

[ReRe]

45. Thanks...

I had never seen the timeline yet. What about after that? Didn't he shoot him at 7:16?

[GreenStormCloud]

217. 7:16 PM of the clock, not 7:16 into the call. N/T

[ReRe]

225. Right... I typed in pm and then removed it as I thought pm was apparent..

[Blue Bike]

60. If Zimmerman stopped following TRayvon at one point, Trayvon shoulnd't have attacked him

This is why the OP thought it was more powerful to say that Zimmerman got out of his car after the 9-11 dispatcher said it wasn't a good idea to follow Trayvon.

It is no coincidence that the OP said this.

And yes, I Know you will say that Trayvon did not strike first, but again, it would be more justified for Trayvon to attack right after Zimmerman followed him, without ceasing to follow him at any time.

[handmade34]

70. no

you do not know that I "will say that Trayvon did not strike first"... I don't know and have never claimed to know who struck first

I do know that Zimmerman was frustrated and tired of 'fucking punks' getting away and he didn't want this one to get away...

and I do not think the OP meant to imply anything other than... "Zimmerman could have prevented it from happening" he is ultimely at fault

shame on you for assuming things

[Zoeisright]

140. Oh for fuck's sake. This shit again.

I am sick to death of this STUPID argument. Trayvon was a KID, sparky. Kids are told that when strangers follow them and accost them they are supposed to fight and scream. Which is exactly what Trayvon did.

Christ on a crutch, this stupidity is unreal.

[ctsnowman]

226. This ^^^^

[Voice for Peace]

149. What reason would Trayvon possibly have had for an unprovoked attack with intent to kill?

Can you explain that?

By all accounts, he was on his way home to watch football.

[Nevernose]

65. He said so in one of his statements

A lough in one of HS other statements, he said he didn't. He gave a lot of different stories to the police, and even more for his friends and Sean Hannity.

That and the fact that his multiple stories are illogical and absurd on their face is why so many people think he's guil as hell.

[Ecumenist]

97. Actually, YOU CAN HEAR HIS HARD BREATHING as he's following him and which prompted the

dispatcher to ask, "ARE YOU FOLLOWING HIM?" When he says he is, the dispatcher then say, "WE.DON'T NEED.YOU.TO.DO THAT."
Anything else you need to know?

[neohippie]

219. listen to Zimmerman's multiple accounts in his interviews

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmermans-statements-sanford-pd-audio/

here are recordings of all the interviews the police did with Zimmerman, and if you listen to interview #6 the police start to question his stories, and his time line there are inconsistencies, with his versions of what happened.

I don't know why the prosecution didn't play every taped interview to highlight how Zimmerman's account changes because that seems like the best way to demonstrate that to the jury.

[DonCoquixote]

29. I said this before

and will keep saying it,
If Zim goes free, then come elections in 2014 and 2016, some Black or Hispanic person will be shot at the right time to scare people into staying home.

[Flatulo]

128. Pretty safe bet

considering that about 30 people are shot and killed every day.

[ceonupe]

135. A black or brown male is killed every hour in America

A black or brown male is killed every hour in America.

Over 80% of them by other brown/black males. And about 70% of the time either the victim or killer or both are already felons.

[Jenoch]

30. "What sick mind can rationalize such behavior as self-defense?"

In a court of law, it's about the law and not morality.

I agree however on a moral point. Zimmerman should have been armed with only a cell phone and a can of pepper spray for self-defense.

[Vattel]

31. If Martin unjustifiably attacked him,

and was trying to slam his head into concrete, would you be more sympathetic?

[CatWoman]

42. I'd like your opinion of post 34.....

[elehhhhna]

101. wtf? if I could make monkeys fly out my heine

would your question make any less sense?

[Zoeisright]

141. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

What a fucking stupid post of yours.

[Vattel]

164. Hmm, I guess you think that Martin did not attack Zimmerman and try to slam

his head into the concrete. Maybe you know this because you are so much smarter than someone like me who, not having seen what happened, admits that he doesn't know what happened. Be that as it may, if you think that the prosecution has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin did not attack Zimmerman and did not try to slam his head into the concrete, then I am sorry to say that you are the stupid one.

[reusrename]

182. Right, the Martin kid was a killer on the hunt and Zimmerman was his prey.

That's some twisted shit right there.

Zimmerman's favorite fantasy was about hunting down these "fucking punks." Do you have the same kind of fantasies? Is that why you believe him?

[Vattel]

230. Pathetic

You attribute to me bleiefs that I don't have, and you suggest without evidence that I have fantasies of being a vigilante. Can a post get any more pathetic?

[Voice for Peace]

151. what's your explanation for your theory?

for an unjustifiable attack by Trayvon, on his
way home from the 7-11, talking to his
friend on the phone.. please splain

[uponit7771]

191. Martin has a right to defend himself against a person chasing him in the dark with a gun

[yardwork]

32. Ditto

[hue]

34. Exactly! It's def as if Zimmerman sought to kill Trayvon Martin!

"At every stage of this tragedy, Zimmerman could have prevented it from happening." EXACTLY!!

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

49. I'm amazed by the contortions our legal system makes possible.

I guess it's good in a way for those that are truly innocent.

But, damn, is it frustrating when you just know the asshole is seething with guilt.

[The Wizard]

51. Zimmerman

stalked, pursued, confronted and murdered an unarmed boy. There's only self defense on Martin's part. Anyone believing Zimmereman's story is suffering thought disorders, loose associations, mental vacuity and is a bigot to the core.

[NewJeffCT]

53. I have not been following it very closely

but, it looks like Zimmerman is also going to get off, if I'm not mistaken, despite the fact that he could have prevented the tragedy on multiple occasions.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

67. Forensics is our last hope of him being convicted of something. The testimony from the defense

witnesses is almost entirely based on heresay. And most of the witnesses testifying on behalf of the defense have been paid off.

If their testimony doesn't comport with forensic science, it may be the last hope of getting some justice for Trayvon and his family.

If the jury pushes aside any racial prejudice or bias and just use their common sense and the fact that there have been so many inconsistencies of what happened that night, it may give hope.

[NewJeffCT]

96. thanks for the update

from what I gather, self-defense is provable if a preponderance of the evidence says it was self-defense, so it only has to be 51-49. Not like murder where it needs to be beyond a reasonable doubt.

Still, seems odd that Zimmerman's past is not allowed in court, and Martin's past is.

[Lurks Often]

122. Martin's past has not been allowed in at all to date.

Zimmerman's past was discussed briefly about his application to become a police officer and the reason for denial, which was bad credit.

[wpelb]

55. A lot will depend on the exact instructions given to the jury

I think most of us have a pretty good idea of what happened in the moments leading up to the shooting. The question is whether those events create the standard that the jury can use to convict Zimmerman of murder or a lesser charge, or if they fail to meet any standard at all.

Did Zimmerman pick a fight with Martin, perhaps because he simply didn't like him (or something about him); or did he simply act as he did because he felt--rightly or wrongly--that Martin was up to no good, only deciding to fire his weapon when he felt he had no other choice? I think the jury will be weighing those questions and others along those lines as it tries to reach a verdict.

Although I think there'll be a verdict, a hung jury wouldn't surprise me.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

56. The Zimmerman Coward will not testify.

[mbperrin]

58. Well said. I have NO sympathy for him.

His wife committed perjury - will she spend time in jail for it?

His old dad is selling a $3.99 ebook defending him - wonder how many have downloaded it?

George has been living well on gun nut money through PayPal for a while - wonder what his next plan is?

[historylovr]

64. Well said.

All Zimmerman had to do was stay in his vehicle. Any reasonable person would have interpreted the dispatcher's words to mean, 'stay in the vehicle.' But no, he was determined to show everybody, especially Trayvon Martin, that he was a big man.

[Grammy23]

66. The young woman who testified this afternoon talking about the home invasion

that had taken place at her home in the complex where she lived and George Zimmerman lived just added weight to the idea that George was determined to catch the person who did that crime. She had discussed the situation numerous times with Zimmerman and apparently was one factor in his decision to form a Neighborhood Watch.

Don't try to tell me that he didn't have an axe to grind with Trayvon that night. He saw Trayvon, became judge and jury and ultimately the executioner. While his "fighting skills" may have been lacking, he figured the equalizer was the 9 mm gun on his hip. He followed, confronted and then bit off more than he could chew. So he pulled out the gun (or already had it drawn) and shot and killed Trayvon.

Everything that happened flowed from the decisions George Zimmerman made that night. From the moment he started following Trayvon, discussion with the police department on what he should do and then the decision to get out of the car.....EVERYTHING hinged on what he did. If he had stayed in his car, waited on the police to arrive and just gave them the information, Trayvon would still be alive and George Zimmerman would not have had his life upended by his behavior the night of Feb. 26, 2012. Yes, Trayvon may very well have punched George in the nose and fought with him. If he had not gotten out of that car, confronted the young man, NONE of that could have happened.

I hope the jury has the good sense to reason it this way.

[PADemD]

102. I wonder

if Zimmerman came after Martin with his gun drawn. It would have scared Martin into attacking Zimmerman since Zimmerman did not immediately identify himself as a neighborhood watcher. Remember that Martin told his friend that Zimmerman was creepy. Martin might have thought that Zimmerman was going to try to abduct him. If someone walked up to me with a gun drawn, I'd punch him in the nose, too.

[brush]

201. Just one thing

Anyone with any sense does not attack someone who is pointing a gun at them.

You pull back, scream for help, anything but try to attack a person who just has to twitch their finger to kill you.

IMHO, zimmerman had the gun drawn all along. There was no Herculean, life and death struggle on the ground with a head being bashed on concrete 20-30 times, or a nose and moutn being smothered, or 35-40 punches thrown by Martin. After all there was no zimmerman dna on Martin's hands even though zimmy alleged that his bloody mouth and nose were smothered by Martin's hands.

BULLSHIT!

but there was zimmerman blood on the gun. How did that get there. Did he conk himself in the face and the back of the head with his own gun after he realized how he'd fucked up big time by killing an unarmed teen?

Maybe, good possibility.

But you don't attack someone with a gun pointing at you, unless you think you're in the movies and can move faster than a bullet.

[Lucinda]

142. I thought two arrests had already been made in the home invasions case?

Before the night Travyon was killed...?

[totodeinhere]

68. I think he is going to get at least manslaughter and

deservedly so. In fact I wish they had charged him with murder 1. But I don't fault his defense team for aggressively defending him. Under our system every defendant no matter how heinous the crime that they are accused of is entitled to a competent defense.

[Grammy23]

71. I, too, hope he is convicted of at least manslaughter. I won't hold my breath

about getting a conviction on Murder 2. I was a witness to a murder (in Florida) where the man was charged with Murder First degree and he was convicted of Murder 2. Murder 1 is when the crime is premeditated. The man who killed my co-worker bought the gun 8 months before he used it to kill her and told someone two days before he shot her to death that he was "going to kill her". There was testimony to those facts. The jury reached a verdict in about 45 minutes. They could not have even looked through the evidence in that length of time. I was speechless when I heard the verdict. Numb is more like it. So what juries decide is a crap shoot.

By the way, the man was sentenced to 22 years for his crime and got out after about 10 years. A cheap price to pay for taking a life.

I guess what happens in the Zimmerman case will make some people happy and send others into despair or rage.

[TNNurse]

72. Stand your ground....

his ground was the car.....did the kid try to get in it???

If this man gets away with this, I have no idea what will happen. I did not watch the trial but surely the question was asked....How were you threatened if you were in a car and he was on foot???

[elehhhhna]

106. welcome to DU. Excellent point.

[DirtyDawg]

74. What sick mind...

...would rationalize this behavior? The one that's still alive and sees the only way out is the G-damn Florida 'stand your ground' law, along with a carry permit for a deadly weapon. Basically just what the authors - ALEC - had in mind when they wrote the damn thing.

[O-Town Blue]

75. He'll walk.

I've known this for quite some time now.

But, he won't win when he gets slapped with an inevitable wrongful death lawsuit. My hope is that every single dollar Fox News pays his sorry ass for interviews, every single dollar the bigots throw at him to hear him speak or buy any book he may publish, and every single dollar the mouthbreathers fundraise for this coward goes straight to Trayvon's family.

[bluedeathray]

76. Unless Florida law permits lesser charges...

That don't involve double jeopardy, I believe Zimmerman is going to walk.

The OP is spot on, but has little bearing on judicial process. And theatrics of defense attorneys.

[tclambert]

78. Hey, the guy I attacked fought back. That's not fair.

Ask any member of the bullies' club.

[etherealtruth]

117. In a nut shell!!!! n/t

[Jim9090]

80. And it amazes me...

That someone as passionate as you are about the case hasn't been following the trial. Zimmerman was already out of his car when the dispatcher spoke the now infamous line "We don't need you to do that."

To which Zimmerman replies "Ok."

He was attempting to get eyes on Trayvon, outside of his car, prior to what the dispatcher said. He contends that after he hung up with the dispatcher he began to make his way back to his car, and the evidence supports that. Him being outside of his car during the call however is not in dispute, as you can hear him exit the vehicle (door chimes) and move quickly. This is why the dispatcher asks him if he was following him in the first place.

He never "got out of his car against the advice of police".

[uponit7771]

85. So what??! The Dispatch didn't say don't get out of your car she indicated she didn't need Z to...

...Follow TM.

Either way, Z escalated the situation against NWP instructions and against the 911 dispatch instructions...not against the law but PERFECT, PERFECT for man slaughter cases.

Z says he was attacked at his car and knocked down by TM ...Then how in the world did TM end up dead 50' away from the car?

Also....You DO understand GZ's gun was on his butt cheek, inside his pants and under his T shirt.... there's LITTLE chase TM "saw" his gun or even felt it

[Jim9090]

92. You missed my point

My point was that he was already out of his car. The OP here said that Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Trayvon AFTER the dispatcher told him "We don't need you to do that."

That is false. Zimmerman was out of his car, jogging after Trayvon, when the dispatcher asked "Are you following him?" to which Zimmerman responds "Yeah".

At that point the line "We don't need you to do that" comes into play, Zimmerman says "Ok", and the call is disconnected not long after. This is when Zimmerman asserts he was going back to his car and was attacked. That part of the equation is difficult to prove, but evidence does support it not refute it, and the prior parts (getting out of car, jogging) are corroborated by the 911 call audio.

I'm not really sure I get your point about the gun. Whether Trayvon saw it or not isn't relevant. If he was beating Zimmerman's head against the pavement as he claims, he was within his rights to shoot.

[kentuck]

95. I would agree that it is hard to fight with one arm behind your back...

It could be very difficult to reach behind you and get a gun with your head bouncing off the pavement. Very difficult.

[Zoeisright]

143. Completely fucking wrong.

What Zimmerman said happened wasn't relevant. He stalked that kid with a gun, he was the aggressor and he murdered that kid in cold blood. I don't understand why some people are so stupid they don't get that.

And by the way, why was there no Zimmerman DNA on Trayvon's hands if he was "beating his head against the pavement"??? In addition, NO marks visible on the murderer's head in the police videos taken that night.

[Skittles]

147. you're not seeing it from the perspective of a racist gun humper

that's why you don't understand

[brush]

205. The evidence does not support

zimmerman's claim that Martin came out of the bushes and attacked him.

zimmerman had to change that story to "he came from out of nowhere and attacked me" because there were NO BUSHES.

You can believe that pack of lies if you want. You're free to keep deluding yourself.

That killer should go to jail.

[Captain Stern]

119. Zimmerman never said he was attacked "at his car".

Zimmerman claims the fight started near the T made by the sidewalk and the dogwalk....which was about 120' from the truck. I think the 50' number is the approximate distance the body was from the T.

[kentuck]

91. I didn't say I wasn't following the trial - I said I wasn't commenting much on it...

He was not standing his ground. He was standing on someone else's ground. He "contends" a lot of stuff.

[hfojvt]

162. it is NOT about Zimmerman's contention

it is about what is on the recording of Zimmerman's call

The recording, which absolutely proves = Zimmerman was ALREADY OUT of his car when the dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that (follow him)."

Get it? The egg came before the chicken. Not the other way around.

This fantasy where Zimmerman is sitting in his car and is told "we don't need you to follow him" and THEN gets out of his car and starts following him anyway is 100% WRONG. It simply NEVER HAPPENED.

Why is it that so many on DU do not know this? And some cannot figure it out when somebody tries to explain it to them? http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3136120

[kentuck]

177. So he was already following him?

And that is supposed to make him more innocent??

[hfojvt]

213. whether it makes him more innocent or less

I believe it is better to get the facts straight

and now the error has been recceed by two hundred and read by thousands. And the correction has been seen, perhaps by dozens? And vociferously denied by some of those dozens too?

But note what happens to your OP when the false story is taken away

"At every stage of this tragedy, Zimmerman could have prevented it from happening. He could have stayed in the car (as ordered by law enforcement) (strike that). He could have waited for help. He could have prevented a confrontation by keeping his distance."

How do you, or anyone know then, that Zimmerman didn't try to keep his distance? Person A walking behind person B is not looking for a confrontation is not closing the distance between them, especially if person B is running (as Zimmerman says on the tape "shit, he's running&quot and person A is walking (which I believe he is, although Jim9090 says Z was "jogging" I don't believe that is the case - his breathing is not heavy enough for a runner, unless the jog is a really slow trot barely faster than a fast walk). But then even the moderately heavy breathing stops and it seems Zimmerman is not even walking any more, as he continues to talk to dispatch.

So we have Trayvon moving away from Zimmerman, and Z moving after him at probably a slower pace. We don't know who "closed the distance". It is possible that Zimmerman ran after him, like the 3rd grader who wanted to fight me when I was in the 6th grade ran after me. But it is also possible that the person being followed thought to himself "I am gonna teach this dickwad a lesson" and turned around to kick his pursuer's a$$.

If you follow somebody who is 30 yards ahead of you, then you are keeping your distance.

[hfojvt]

163. welcome to hell n00b

you've stepped in it now, you racist gun humper

Shibboleth is supposed to be pronounced with emphasis on the L

which stands for the Lies that all true Liberals are supposed to believe.

or something.

But thanks for trying to set the record straight. Maybe 1 Kings 19: 10 is not true then. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3136120

[brush]

203. But he did follow Martin

The killing did not take place anywhere near his car.

He killed an unarmed teen minding his own business walking home and talking to his friend on the phone.

He's a KILLER. There's no disputing that. He needs to go to jail.

[amuse bouche]

84. GZ is a first class moron

I sure hate the thought of him getting away with murder

[Soundman]

87. 92% of the 15,000

People watching the trial, and blogging on the WFTV site say not guilty of 2nd degree murder.

On a side note, it looks like they may include lesser charges.

[Divine Discontent]

132. the site which is associated with that station

is like the old AOL comment boards when stories are posted involving minorities/women/gays/etc

the comments scrolling across the TV have been pretty pathetic, too, but fortunately a few good ones from rational thinkers get in there.

what amazes me, is that there's so much animosity against a black teenager walking with candy - regardless of the fact whether he punched George first or not - the fact is George had pre-judged Trayvon as 'suspicious' for no reason, called him a rude name on the 911 call, ignored the 911 operator saying he didn't need to follow him because cops were coming, then kept going after him, and took a loaded weapon out of his truck - why did he not stay in the truck and say he was neighborhood watch (even though he officially wasn't IIRC) and ask Trayvon what he was doing - end of story! Watch him walk into his dad's place... seems like, at minimum, manslaughter by negligent behavior.

?w=487

[Soundman]

186. There is no sense

In bothering to try to discuss this with you. Like so many here you are far too close minded and ignorant on the matter to have a civil discussion. I would like to point out your facts are totally wrong too, but by all means, carry on.

That is a cute graphic though.

And FYI have NO feelings either way. I just seek truth and justice.

I wonder if the Martins would have registered with the complex (as the bylaws clearly required) if Zimmerman may have known who Travon was? Nah, that wouldn't fit your paradigm now would it.

BTW it is not a crawl it is a blog, you can watch the live feed and blog. http://www.wftv.com/s/zimmerman-livestream/

The station staff moderate the blog so it is a lot less one sided and close minded than the discussion that has taken place here. I like being to ask legal questions and have had several answered.

[anneboleyn]

88. Martin was also a minor. Zimmerman was an adult male.

I don't think that this aspect was emphasized enough either. Martin responded to an adult male he did not know -- who was following him at night -- just as we would tell minors to respond -- that is do your best to get away and if you are somehow cornered or approached then defend yourself so that you are not removed to a "second location."

[Ecumenist]

98. Thank you AnneBoleyn, EXACTLY what I've been saying all along.

All kids are taught this. Hell, my mom told me to "pull up a tree if you have to & SMACK the hell out of someone to keep safe"

[Cheap_Trick]

89. If justice isn't found in the courtroom

may it be found in a dark alley somewhere.

[Jim9090]

105. Just curious...

but do you support the death penalty?

[KT2000]

94. That is how I see it too

If he gets away with it - that means anyone can stalk, pursue confront etc for any reason and if the person objects, feels threatened and protects him/herself then murdering the person is A-OK.

[etherealtruth]

107. I am equally astounded

[DirkGently]

111. That's the crux of it. But for Zimmerman's playing cop, a kid would be alive.

What's really troubling is that our laws allow someone to suspect, stalk, and confront someone, while carrying a gun, then shoot to kill if they suddenly "feel threatened," *even after* causing the whole situation.

My feeling is that people who are really wound up in the idea that Zimmerman lied about everything, to the point where he got out of his car with the idea of executing Martin, are reacting to the injustice that the law actually allows here. Zimmerman IS a liar -- witness his antics with his wife screwing around re: the bail hearing -- but his basic narrative tracks pretty well.

My speculation is that Zimmerman confronted Martin, who understandably got pissed, and a struggle ensued. Who knows who made contact first? I think it's a little strange for people to think it's impossible Martin slugged Zimmerman. A lot of people would slug Zimmerman. Probably most people who meet him have considered it.

Zimmerman hit the ground, and was taking a mild-to-moderate beating when his clothing shifted and revealed the gun.

Once that happened, he didn't know what to do other than grab it and fire. Martin may have reached for it -- who wouldn't, in that situation? Or not. Either way, once the gun was in play, someone was getting shot.

Which is the problem with people arming themselves and stalking around looking to confront people they deem "suspicious."

This is why every citizen is not a cop, and shouldn't walk around strapped with the idea they're going to "take care of business."

It's a sad, awful mess.

[brush]

206. Sorry, zimmy's story does not track. Think about this

Wouldn't a straddling Martin have blocked zimmy's arm from reaching for the gun under and behind his hip, because that's exactly where Martin's knee and thigh would be if he were the one doing the straddling. If what zimmerman alleges is true (not my belief), his arms may have been free to move in front of a straddler's thighs but that would be it.

He would have had to reach around and under Martin's knee and thigh and under his own hip to get to the gun tucked into the rear attached holster. That would not only take arms about a foot longer but arms of Herculean strength to lift up his big body, weighed down even more by Martin's) enough to get the gun out from under all that weight.

And wasn't wannabe boy also taking MMA classes 3 times a week for a year? Didn't he learn anything about leverage and how to use his weigh advantage instead of just allowing a teen boy who he outweighed by 40 lbs, and who he had superior adult male upper body strength over, to just pummel him like a helpless rag doll without offering any resistance?

And after all that alleged head bashing on concrete, and 30-40 punches and smothering he just needed a band-aid for treatment, no concussion, no skull fracture, no hemotoma, no blood on the sidewalk?

Sounds like he conked himself on the back of the head and nose with his own gun after he realized that he had fucked up big time by killing the kid instead of making the "heroic" citizen's arrest he had envisioned.

That would explain how it was his own blood on his own gun, not Martin's.

Sorry, zimmy's story does not compute. And neither does your support for basic narrative.

Basic pack of lies is more like it.

[boston bean]

112. This is why I am hopeful for some guilty verdict. nt

[neffernin]

121. Zimmerman is going to rightfully escape being convicted

Unfortunately in this country it is legal to kill someone else when you yourself take any damage or can prove that you were in harms way (self defense). It requires direct witnesses and/or proof proving otherwise. Until congress changes the laws or our judicial system changes the legal prescendents then things like this will continue to happen and the offender will get away far too many times. In no way, shape, or form do I agree with it and at the very least Zimmerman should spend more time behind bars but unfortunately this is the country we live in. Freedom in certain places is touted to the point where even killing others is someone's right if they are threatened (so much for right to life).

The more I read about the case and while I feel Zimmerman's lawyer is horrible the prosecution really is fighting an uphill battle as the only concrete evidence available are the wounds to both Zimmerman and Martin.

Zimmerman doesn't appear to be showing remorse, but as someone who has been through a fair bit of traumatic stuff I've learned that people show remorse differently. Personally I show very little emotion no matter what it is I'm going through. Again, not defending him, but it is very easy to jump to conclusions on such things. I'm honestly surprised his demeanor didn't change after the first day as his lawyer would have been best served having Zimmerman at least fake he wasn't indifferent to the whole situation (given the female jury).

[marlin56]

129. What if Zimmerman didn't have a gun?

I have been thinking a lot about this lately.

If Zimmerman didn't have a gun, Martin would have been quickly charged with some level of assault by the Sanford PD. The trial, if he wasn't forced to plea out, would have been swift. And he would be sitting in jail right now with a felony charge that would ruin his life.

The moment that altercation started, Martin's life was over, one way or another. And that sucks.

[Divine Discontent]

134. yeah, the ex-sanford PD chief said he wouldn't have arrested GZ if he

was black, either.

And, I agree with you. If TM wasn't killed, he would have been arrested. I think you're right, either way, he was going to be ruined, or dead.

[BigD_95]

175. you make a great point

Martin should have been charged with assault. Zimmerman did not break any laws following him. So if Martin did attack Zimmerman first that was the first law that was broken. Which is why Zimmerman should be found not guilty

[B Calm]

144. Armed man shoots and kills unarmed man.

case closed! It's not rocket science here!!

[niyad]

198. except it was armed man shoots and kills unarmed minor.

[kentuck]

150. If my comments are incorrect:

I stand to be corrected. Perhaps Zimmerman did not get out of his car against the advice of the police (police dispatcher) because he was already out of his car? Was he a cop or was he the Neighborhood Watch? I am part of Neighborhood Watch in my neighborhood and I take it that my job is to watch the neighborhood and report criminal activity to the police, not to try to police it myself with my gun? Perhaps it was bad judgement on everyone's part? But one is dead. And one took it upon himself to be Matt Dillon.

[locks]

153. One thing we know

If neither of them had been carrying a gun the odds are that they would both be
alive today.

[DallasNE]

154. The Prosecution Has Been Brain Dead In This Trial

It is like they want Zimmerman to get off. Take today, for instance. O'Mara did a demo with a dummy that was laughable at best and the prosecution didn't challenge any part of it. First of all, if Martin grabbed him by the collarbone as O'Mara demonstrated then Martin's DNA would be all over that part of his jacket. While Martin's DNA was found on another part of Zimmerman's jacket there was nothing where it would have to be -- in large quantities. Next, if Martin was grabbing Zimmerman like that the first defensive move should have been to grab Martin around the wrists to prevent any kind of pounding. Again, no Zimmerman DNA on the sleeves of Martin's hoodie. Lastly, Zimmerman should have just stiffened his back and Martin could not have slammed his head in that manner -- besides, even if Martin could have marginally lifted his shoulders than all Zimmerman needs to do is lift his head and let his shoulders take any hits. So not only is O'Mara's demonstration ridiculous, there is no physical evidence to support such an attack. An all woman jury may not know how someone would naturally react when attacked in this manner but those male prosecutors have no excuse for not pointing out the idiocy of O'Mara's theory. They only have one more chance and that is their closing argument. Will they blow it again there? The prosecution has a rebuttal witness but the Judge may not allow the prosecution to call that witness. The defense may have made one screw-up today and that is when they got under the Judge's skin and got a giant smack-down although the Jury was not present to see that exchange.

[tofuandbeer]

157. His sleazy lawyers are pretty damn good.

If he is found NOT-guilty, would the Martin family have the option of a wrongful death suit? It seems like that would be very applicable here because Zimmerman should NOT have followed poor Trayvon—and should have left it to the police.

[Kennah]

166. It's a payday for them either way.

[akbacchus_BC]

159. I have no sympathy for Zimmerman either. He stalked

that kid against the advice of law enforcement telling him to stay put.

I am not looking at how this is being played out on TV but am sure Zimmerman will get off. Sad all the way, a child is dead and if Zimmerman gets a few years, which I doubt, he too will suffer the consequences of stereotyping a black kid. I really sympathize with the parents, a child gone is never gonna come back, no matter the punishment to the irresponsible person.

[crim son]

167. I've been amazed the same way.

I believe that today an "expert" suggested that he was probably in a dazed state when he finally fired his weapon, and I say SO THE FUCK WHAT? He put himself into that position and did it willfully and aggressively, and he should pay the price.

[Kablooie]

168. Legal opinion is that he will go free.

They haven't proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman's story is false.
According to the law all his other moral transgressions, racism, stalking, confronting, etc., are totally irrevelant to the legal case.

[Enthusiast]

169. If Zimmerman is not convicted

it will be a terrible injustice.

[myrna minx]

170. I agree. It's unfathomable.

[anobserver2]

171. Orlando Sentinel: "Zimmerman was not following Neighborhood Watch 'rules'"

I have not been watching this trial much, but I can't get past the fact Zimmerman was violating the rules of Neighborhood Watch in addition to dismissing the police advice - and that he got out of his truck.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-24/news/os-trayvon-martin-neighborhood-watch-20120321_1_zimmerman-community-ties-neighborhood-watch

Orlando Sentinel: "Zimmerman was not following Neighborhood Watch 'rules'"

...Chris Tutko, director of Neighborhood Watch for the National Sheriffs' Association, said Zimmerman broke some cardinal rules.

First, he approached a stranger he suspected of wrongdoing.

"If you see something suspicious, you report it, you step aside and you let law enforcement do their job," Tutko said. "This guy went way beyond the call of duty. At the least, he's overzealous."

Second, Zimmerman carried a handgun. Police departments and sheriff's offices that train volunteers advise them never to carry weapons — though Zimmerman broke no laws by doing so because he has a concealed-weapons permit.

"There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said.....

If this jury acquits him, it seems like: anyone can follow anyone, kill the person, and claim "self-defense."

If Zimmerman had followed rule of Neighborhood Watch, if he had done what the police operator told him (not to follow the kid), and if Zimmerman had not gotten out of his truck, I think this kid would be alive today.

I have a tough time feeling sympathy for Zimmerman.

[uponit7771]

194. This and going against the suggestion of the 911 dispatch is a GOOD reason for man slaughter

[Blue Bike]

209. You repeated the unproved assertion that he disobeyed the dispatcher

You just don't know what Zimmerman did after the 9-11 dispatcher told him not to follow Martin.

[Blue Bike]

211. You just said without proof that Zimmerman did not do what the dispatcher told him

You simply guess that Zimmerman proceeded to follow Martin after the dispatcher told him not to. Does the 9-11 call transcript indicate he did? Or was he already out of his vehicle?

[BigD_95]

172. because everything you said he did was not against the law

pretty simple huh??

[kentuck]

178. Repeal the "Stand Your Ground" law.

Get guns out of the hands of irresponsible people?

Is that the solution?

[Travis_0004]

180. zimmerman is not using a stand your ground defense

[kentuck]

187. But it seems the NRA is very interested in this case...

They don't want it to reflect negatively on honest gun owners with carry permits. They don't want people to know that guns kill people. They want people to think that people kill people. And as a side note, since corporations are now people, why can't guns be people? Each gun can get a tax break and special laws written for it?

[uponit7771]

192. Neither is someone swinging their arms wildly in a crowded public place...IE the reason we have man

...slaughter charges...Zimmerman as at the LEAST reckless regardless if he didn't break any laws in chasing a 10th grade girl in the dark with a loaded gun

[enki23]

224. Shooting and killing people is very much against the law. But you know that.

You aren't actually serious. I mean, you probably like Zimmerman's actions just fine. You're serious about that. You're just, clearly, happy to toss out any stupid, irrelevant bullshit that might provide an illusory handhold for your fellows to hold on to.

Just to answer the stupid followup, so this farce of an "argument" need not continue on a the part of decent people:

The rest is to establish motive and to determine whether Zimmerman was duly diligent in his actions toward an innocent teen who posed him absolutely no threat, but who certainly, once the chase was engaged, had every right to self defense against an armed adult stalking him through the evening streets of his neighborhood.

And the answer any other stupid fucking attempts to further rationalize this farce are, in order:

1. Fucking bullshit.
2. Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you?
3. No.
4. I already have one
and
5. Get the fuck away from me, you nutbag.

[4 more years]

202. GZ didn't even own his condo!

GZ didn't even own a condo--he rented-- and couldn't be a member of the HOA! TM's parents sued the HOA and received an undisclosed amount from the insurance company. Obviously the insurance co. felt that GZ made a huge mistake in his actions. I bet the HOA wish they never met this nut-- they'll be paying for years. You better believe that TM's parents will bring a civil suit on wrongful death of a minor. Poor George! He'll be poor and then some after this. Can you imagine GZ got paid nothing for protecting other people's property with a f***ing GUN! This guy has been playing cops and robbers in this neighborhood for the past 5 years. In this fatal night he finally snapped and took a life.
With all the money he's collected from repukes, I wonder if they know he's a registered Democrat!

[hockeynut57]

204. in my opinion

the second he left his vehicle he forfeited any legal defense for using deadly force

[live love laugh]

210. "Can I borrow your doll?"

Said the prosecution to the defense yesterday after the defense's lawyer's theatrical struggle with a foam figure.

Even if there was a "struggle" where and when did it become life threatening?

When did fisticuffs become life threatening?

It sickens me to see Zimmerman with pics of tricklets of blood from the most superficial of scratches while Trayvon Martin was mortally wounded.

I am further sickened by the "help" scream testimony where Zimmerman's equally unremorseful mother and unremorseful host of friends and family all testified that the voice on the phone that called "help" is Zimmerman's--when Zimmerman himself self said that did not sound like his own voice.

This is a travesty.

[Baitball Blogger]

220. It's Seminole County, Florida.

They hand over the government to real estate con-artists in the community and the FBI and State Attorney do absolutely nothing. When they say, private-public partnerships, they mean private individuals can use the power of government to commit fraud and conspiracy.

So, I'm not in the least bit surprised that a man who stalks a black man, gets out of the car and kills him will get away with manslaughter.

[enki23]

221. This one really is a litmus test, a bright line separating the filth from everyone else.

Like evolution, there is no room for reasonable disagreement. Like a genocide, there is no room for moral disagreement. Like general relativity, it would require a mountain of extraordinary, irrefutable evidence to disprove it.

It takes a very strong motivation to take Zimmerman's side. And that motivation cannot come from any of the above, because they do not have any of the above. That only leaves four major likely motivations: assholish contrariness, pig fornicating gun nuttery, despicably overt racism, and all of the above.

[ctsnowman]

227. K & R

[kentuck]

232. Since it is obvious no one here knows the facts, I will delete this post.

I see no resolution here.