I hate when people pray over their food aloud in public

[Pretzel_Warrior]

Last edited Thu Jul 11, 2013, 02:34 PM - Edit history (1)

Sitting in Starbucks, this couple sits down next to me with their bagel and coffee and hold hands across the table and start praying quite loudly to their God for their fine mid morning snack. Ugh!!

I get it. You love your God. But supposedly he can hear your silent prayers too. Don't under estimate the magical powers of your God.

And if you were trying to "bear witness" to your faith...it had opposite of the intended effect.

Yours truly, non religious agnostic just trying to enjoy his coffee and newspaper in peace.

[Apophis]

1. People who pray aloud in public are doing it to be attention whores.

Nothing more.

[Aerows]

55. Even the Bible says you should pray

at home in the quiet rather than in public to "prove" how devout you are.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

69. so, giving thanks over a meal

Is about proving you're devout?

[Aerows]

77. No

It's praying LOUDLY so that everyone may hear and praise you for your devoutness that is the issue. Someone else cited the verse - Matthew 6:5.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

93. having not been there loud could be an issue and it may not

Guess it depends on the ambient noise level and whether the partner wanted to hear...

And Matt 6:5 is about praying hypocrites... and in a single exposure to these people there is no way to know that.

SP

[Aerows]

97. It's true

But I assume this post wouldn't be here if it wasn't loud enough to be distracting. Yes, that's an assumption, but I just interjected what the Bible says about praying in public.

[enki23]

155. "Matt 6:5 is about praying hypocrites..." who we are enjoined to recognize by their public prayer.

And further evidence is found just a couple of verses later, when Jesus explicitly commands people to do their praying behind closed doors.

"If you paste these three words here with this phrase in Ezekiel and squint real hard at it from a ninety degree angle it says exactly what I want it all to say." Says every Christian ever.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

176. not disagreeing with that at all

What I take umbrage at is the assumption of why these people were praying...

sP

[enki23]

213. The poster assumes, as this gospel Jesus clearly did, that they are doing it for attention.

And the schmucks, as this Jesus would have it, "have their reward in full." The reward is the attention, the social status, for both better and worse, acquired by their display. This Jesus was as contemptuous of it as most of the rest of us are, and for exactly the same reasons. He made exactly the same assumption about their motives as did the OP.

Now, I suppose it could be considered possible that the gospel Jesus was wrong in his clear assumptions. I just find it interesting that, at least on this issue, the gospel Jesus seems to take a position in favor of the less devout, and less evangelical. Though I suppose that shouldn't be surprising from the purveyor of a mystery religion who (fictional or merely fictionalized) seldom made any strong claims to any desire to evangelize for a religion, and often (as with the whole parable thing) seemed to be trying to do the exact opposite. The true meaning of things, as in all those things we call mystery religions, was to be deliberately reserved for the enlightened few.

[MNBrewer]

246. #223

That. He said "don't be like the hypocrites and pray in public, but rather go in private where no one can see you."

I tend to agree.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

290. i just tend toward the benefit of the doubt

i don't know why these people were praying as they were... but the OP could certainly be right.

sP

[auntsue]

372. the point is ostentatious prayer

is intrinsically unseemly "look at me I am a Christian see how I pray!" I was raised Catholic, we were expected to pray before eating, we were also suppose to make the sigh of the cross before and after. It can be done is such a way that doesn't call attention to yourself.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

377. i agree to a point

ostentatious (thank god you spelled it first) IS a problem and if this couple was being overtly loud then i agree with the op. however, there are several people who can't even stand the sight of a bowed head let alone a family praying over a meal. prayer should be done quietly... and reverently... regardless of whom you are thanking or petitioning.

sP

[frylock]

223. matthew 6:6..

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

[Aerows]

265. That's the one I was looking for

If you are doing it so that everyone can see how devout you are, and are doing it so loudly as to annoy others, you aren't doing it out of love for religion - you are doing it so people will think well of you.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

287. but we are making assumptions about the people doing the praying

perhaps it was because the coffee shop was loud and they wanted their partner to be a part of the prayer? maybe the person just has a loud voice... I do (though I do try hard to curtail it but my 'conversational' level tends to be louder/deeper than most so it does carry).

if the OP was truly discerning that these people were out for show, then yes, Jesus' words hold true. unfortunately, judging from the way the OP was written, I think the poster is showing a bit of bias that clouds their perception...

sP

[Apophis]

182. Exactly.

[demosincebirth]

262. Matt 6:1-7

"Be careful about not living righteously merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven" (Matthew 6:1).


Nothing could be clearer than the following verses:

Matthew 6:5 - 7

5. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Jesus says you must definitely not pray as the hypocrites pray.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Here Jesus says when thou prayest, you must pray this way:
(1) enter into thy closet.
(2) shut the door.
(3) pray to thy Father which is in secret.
(4) use not vain repetitions.

[On the Road]

289. It Would Seem That Way, Wouldn't It?

but Jesus himself prayed publicly on many occasions, so that cannot possibly be what he meant.

You also cannot be sure whether Jesus thought of public prayer in the temple as being the same thing as a group blessing before a meal. The mealtime prayer is so well established it's hard to think Jesus was opposed to it on the grounds of its being public. He was an itinerant preacher after all.

[left is right]

339. From my reading of the New Testament, I don’t think that is quite right

He prayed privately while in public. I find no record that he ever prayed publicly. He and later Peter, John and James did pray during some of their acts of healing. However, there is mo indication that anyone but the small groups of disciples and the person receiving the healing gift heard or noticed. Even on the night of his most fervent praying, he went off by himself. he left even his core group of disciples to issue their own private prayers. He didn’t even teach the disciples about praying until they asked directly for such teachings

[bike man]

323. Is there a difference between an offering of thanks for the meal and actual prayer, or communion,

Last edited Thu Jul 11, 2013, 05:40 PM - Edit history (1)

with whatever deity/belief system one has chosen? Reading about the Sermon on the Mount, thanks was given for the bread/fish.

If so, then the Matthew reference that so many get all quote-y over, does not apply to the meal reference but does to the the communion one.

The hypocrites mentioned in the Matthew reference are doing their 'praying' in an ostentatious manner, and that is what is being enjoined against.

Interestingly, Congress begins sessions with a prayer. I recall there being one from time to time at inauguration ceremonies. Perhaps a petition/email/letter writing campaign should begin forthwith.

But on the other hand, what does it hurt?

No one ever mentions the line about not hiding your light under a bushel, but put it on a stand so that all can see. Is it possible that this 'light' can be one's faith/belief? That's in Matthew also, but it doesn't get all quoted up in this kind of thread.

And FYI, I am a non-believer.

[bike man]

84. I know a family of three, all of whom stop what they are doing five times a day, kneel, and

pray. And they always face the same direction.

And it doesn't hurt me at all. It's what they do because of who they are and what they believe.

Why not allow a similar observance in a restaurant? That doesn't hurt anyone else either.

If you really think they (anyone of any faith) are "attention whores" because of their praying in public - ignore them. That'll show 'em!

[Mariana]

110. The OP did, in fact, allow a similar observance in a restaurant.

Why do you and many other people on this thread act like the OP tried to prevent the prayer from taking place? He or she clearly did no such thing.

[bike man]

138. I don't think people in this thread have suggested the OP tried to prevent a prayer from taking

place.

I simply think that the 'outrage' shown by some folks because of a public prayer by anyone of any faith is an attention getting device. The 'outrage expressers' call the prayerful folk 'attention whores', while I tend to think the actual attention whores are the anti public prayer folks.

A family or small group praying does not damage my own non-belief in any way. Let them be!

[Mariana]

163. Your words:

"Why not allow a similar observance in a restaurant?" The OP did allow a similar observance in a restaurant.

And now you say, "Let them be!" The OP did let them be.

[bike man]

170. "Let them be" without all the consternation, gnashing of teeth, wringing of hands. "Allow..."

without the cons....you know. All the mental anquish brought on by something that harms the bystander in no way whatsoever.

There need be no eye-rolling, nudging of the tablemate, elbowing of the buddy - none of that.

Making a post here shows how deeply upset the OP is/was over an act by someone else that harmed him in no way whatsoever.

edited to add: If you will review, I did not respond to the OP, but rather to response #1 in my first reply. Additionally, the OP does not mention allowing any similar observances, merely expresses concern about 'loud' prayer.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

174. You say I question loud praying people motives

Then you judge mine as well as my mental anguish level. Lol.

[bike man]

183. Do not get the vapors. If you will review the upper right hand corner of the various responses, you

will see that I first responded to reply #1, the one that mentions attention whores.

[madmom]

222. ...

"Making a post here shows how deeply upset the OP is/was over an act by someone else that harmed him in no way whatsoever. "


How is making a post here "harming" the prayers in any way?

[bike man]

238. The pray-ers are not here bemoaning the actions of another, only the person who heard the

prayers of a pray-er is doing that.

[madmom]

346. But how does it hurt them? We all have a right to "bemoan" as long as

we don't hurt anyone, so what's the big deal? He has an opinion, so do you, so do I, deal.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

397. He is pissing and moaning that people of faith should express their faith in public

For some reason, this upsets him. I will not impugn any motives to him, other to say that he is aggrieved. Well boo hoo.

[madmom]

405. The original statement I was questioning stated..

"Making a post here shows how deeply upset the OP is/was over an act by someone else that harmed him in no way whatsoever. "

My question was HOW did his statement hurt them in anyway? Are you who are "bemoaning" the OP doing exactly the same thing you are accusing him/her of doing? Why yes, yes you are!

[7962]

225. i had to re-read it myself

to look for the non-existent part where it was "allowed' in some other instance.

[Aerows]

241. I didn't see that, either

I just saw someone commenting that it's annoying when people pray really loudly in a restaurant and call attention to themselves by doing so. Much like it's annoying when people talk really loudly on a phone in a restaurant and call attention to themselves by doing so, or bring their 2 month old child to a restaurant and let them scream for 10 minutes before taking them outside.

[7962]

266. Oh God, the "cell phone voice"!!! I never have been able to get that!!!!

[SoCalNative]

239. Maybe some of us

in the same public place don't want to hear their stupid churchy blathering crap?

[bike man]

247. I love the smell of tolerance in the morning. nt

[DeschutesRiver]

259. Something has to harm us before we can express an opinion about the activity?

Or the activity has to fit someone else's definition of harm to a bystander before comment on a behavior is allowed?

Are we talking mental or physical harm being the prerequisite of holding forth an opinion about someone else's behavior?

Either way, it makes no sense. If that was the criteria for expressing an opinion, there would be no such thing as forums.

Besides, if as you say the OP was so very deeply upset, then you provided the evidence of enough harm that OP should be granted the right to vent about it (though I see no evidence of deep upset in the OP). And if consistency has any merit, then at a minimum, OP should be allowed to express his opinion just as loudly since it no more causes harm than the loudly praying people.

Anyway, there are lots of arguments here, but none favor your position. I agree with the OP, and even extend his argument. There is no need for anyone to be talking so loudly that others have to hear every stinking word that some egoist says, whether they are praying at a loud level, or yelling to their table mates or shouting on their cell phones. They are all consciously choosing to be obnoxious around others when there is an easy way to keep praying, or talking or be on the cell phone in a public eating place.

Just turn down your volume a bit to be considerate of others. And if not, then prepare for the possibility that someone might have a different view about what you are doing/saying in public and they just might speak their mind too. Oh, the horrors of it all... especially when the OP said not a word to these people, just brought it up on a "discussion" board.

[Apophis]

188. It doesn't hurt me either.

Unless it interferes with my life, either to me personally or through legislation, then I don't care.

I simply stated that people who pray aloud in public are attention whores.

[TheBlackAdder]

203. Trolling Much? Is that family really doing it on the hallway floor of a Denny's? nt

[bike man]

226. The hallway floor of Denny's isn't necessary. Isn't it true that the prayers can

be shortened and/or combined, as long as they are in order and in fact completed?

[TheBlackAdder]

234. Stay on topic. You were trolling the anti-Muslim sentiment, praying on the floor. nt

[bike man]

318. The anti-Christian sentiment is rife here. I mentioned the small family as a

comparison. Different people believe in different ways/things/faiths, and demonstrate this in a multitude of ways.

[TheBlackAdder]

337. As a Christian American whose family was here since the 1630's...

I'd like to know which branch of Christianity does the following:

Prays 5 times a day, facing the same direction while kneeling on the floor?


The facing East might be Orthodox Christianity, but the other two... Come on, you're not fooling anybody.

[elehhhhna]

344. As a Christian American who is a descendant of Charlemagne,

and a few medieval saints, Bishops, etc., I'm with you.

DU's got Christian cred all over the place!

[VA_Jill]

242. But....

do they pray out loud? I think the LOUD was the issue. Are they showy about it, or do they kind of go off to the sidelines and try to be inconspicuous? I think that's part of the issue too.

[SCVDem]

267. I have never observed Muslims pray in public.

Have any of you?

[hrmjustin]

101. I pray at meals aloud but lowly, am I an attention whore?

Sunday Brunch we do pray aloud, are we attention whores?

[Apophis]

186. Yes.

If you do it in a public place.

[SwissTony]

304. I believe the gist of the comment was...

1) do you pray in a public place?
2) do you pray loudly? (this is implied more in the OP rather in the post to which you are replying)

[hrmjustin]

309. He said if we do so in a public place as I said i did then I am an attention whore.

[SwissTony]

311. Do you do it in a loud voice or in a soft voice?

Do you say a short prayer or a long prayer?

How do feel about people of other faiths doing the same?

I'm an atheist, but religion is important to me because it's important to people who are important to me.

I have no objection to people praying in public but it should not be disruptive.

[hrmjustin]

313. Grace is always a short prayer. I enjoy short prayers. And grace should be in a low voice if said

aloud. People of other faiths can pray all they want. If they want to pray with me I am all for it.

[SwissTony]

315. Thank you.

I used to play in a football (soccer) team which was, by chance, about 50% devout Christian and 50% atheist &/or not interested. We had a short prayer before every game. The Christians formed an inner circle and prayed. The rest of us simply stood back and remained silent. After the prayer, the two groups gave each other cheers and claps on the backs. It worked for us.

This was in Australia, which may not reflect circumstances elsewhere.

[hrmjustin]

341. I am sorry I lost my cool. I felt insulted by what you said but I should not have said what I did.

I am sorry!

[Aerows]

245. Only if you do it loudly

and make such a production of it that people at other tables are disturbed by it. If that is the case, then yes. If half the people around you scowl at your table and the other half look at you like you disrupted their conversations, you definitely need to quiet it down some. You don't own the right to make other people's meals that they are paying for - just like you are - uncomfortable by being loud and dramatic in your religious displays.

[hrmjustin]

254. Well according to another poster i am an attention whore.

We are not loud and the owners are glad to have our business. We give them a lot of business and drink a lot. We never had a complaint.

[Aerows]

261. Then you probably aren't the problem

It's the ones that do it so loudly that everyone at adjoining tables notices it. If that happens, trust me, they are just putting up with you - they aren't enjoying it and it is rude.

[kestrel91316]

192. And they are defying Jesus, who said when you pray, go pray IN YOUR CLOSET.

He hated people who made a big public show of prayer.

[Apophis]

194. Yep.

I'm an atheist and I know the bible better than most Christians.

[Yo_Mama]

204. So are Sikh turbans attention whoreage?

There are a lot of "visible" religious observances, and I don't think your characterization is just.

One person saying grace over a meal (I assume that's what it was) usually does so silently. It is the custom when two or more are praying together to do it aloud, so they can hear each other. That's because they are praying TOGETHER.

Nothing about Matthew disallowed or rebuffed joint prayer. The verse is specifically aimed at individual prayer, and I've got to admit I would find it a bit weird for someone praying alone before a meal in public to say it aloud, if only because it is easier to concentrate when saying it silently.

I have seen people ranting about persons reading a bible on public transport. I realize that there is nothing, including hairstyles, which will not offend some people. But this seems unreasonable, and spending your life in a ranting fervor over other peoples' behavior strikes me neither as rational or enjoyable.

If they were yelling it, that's another thing, just as persons having too-loud conversations in a restaurant is abusive. But if they were just saying grace together?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

251. no. Sikh turbans are cool. large gaudy crosses are yuck but no problem of mine

hearing loud praying over their food in a public restaurant space right next to me to show they are good Christians? blech.

[Apophis]

354. There's visible observances and loud/obnoxious observances.

I am talking about loud/obnoxious attention whores. If one prays to himself/herself in public, that's fine. But if I can hear you 50 feet away, you're not doing it to be thankful. You're doing it to be an attention whore.

[Yo_Mama]

360. Generally anything heard 50 feet away in a restaurant would be obnoxious.

No disagreement there.

Unless it's a shout of "Fire" or something like that. It's common courtesy to keep your voice down no matter what you are saying.

[NM_Birder]

256. When you are starving.....

Does that count if you blurt out "THANK GOD" ! when the food finally gets there ?

[Apophis]

355. ...

SMDH.

[NM_Birder]

392. What is SMDH ?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

395. So Much Delicious Ham?

[NRaleighLiberal]

2. I try to be understanding of it, but share your view....

...to me, anyone that visible about their religion are trying hard to convince themselves of something....or worse.

[Maximumnegro]

11. So the Dalai Lama is up to no good

apparently because he is always going on and on about compassion and buddhism and wearing those goddamn robes. Yeah, definitely can't trust that guy. Or his rapist glasses.

[NRaleighLiberal]

15. nice extrapolation - sorry, didn't mean my statement to be a generality spread to all faiths!

And, yes, the practice annoys me - so what? Just my reaction/opinion.

[clffrdjk]

112. Care to extrapolate on that gem?

I can tell already you are a big supporter of equality and hate hypocrisy in all forms.

[NRaleighLiberal]

159. No, I was clumsy in my response and don't wish to expound at all.

I answered a question honestly on how it makes me feel when I am around visible/audible praying. I am uncomfortable with it - but I would remove myself from it, but respect it. That's all I intended. Sorry if it was sloppy or misinterpreted - I "hate" no one - hate is not in my vocabulary.

[FarCenter]

30. The Dalai Lama has almost certainly collaborated with the CIA and MI6

[Maximumnegro]

46. LOL

[Deep13]

61. You say it ironically, but that is my view.

Except for the rapist glasses part. He is using his trite, greeting card philosophy to sucker people.

[Maximumnegro]

297. Yeah sucker an entire nation into fleeing

extermination and oppression under China and advocating peaceful resistance.

Martin Luther King was a big phony as well, no doubt. With pedophile moustache!

[Deep13]

317. Tibet is a seperate issue.

Nothing DL is doing is for Tibet. It's so he can keep living like a king off the dollars of impressionable, Hollywood suckers.

You cannot compare DL to the great MLK, at least not honestly.

[liberal_at_heart]

320. I am a Buddhist and my life is not a greeting card. Buddhists live real lives just like everybody

else. We get sad, frustrated, angry. The thing I like the most about Buddhism is it teaches practicality. If something is going on in your life that you can't change, you may have negative feelings, but why continue to wallow in it? Why not accept what is going on and find a way to be happy. I am going through something very personal right now that I am not very happy about but it is what it is and right now I can't change it. So now I am working on accepting it and being happy. I am already feeling more peaceful.

[Deep13]

327. Was commenting on DL, not either Buddism or Buddists. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

345. but you said his greeting card style suckers people in. You are wrong about that.

[pnwmom]

3. Why should you care? It's not like there's a talking ban in Starbucks.

Is every family that's having a conversation a threat to your peace?

[Nye Bevan]

4. Meh. If you need dead silence to enjoy your coffee, drink it at home (nt)

[Dreamer Tatum]

5. Hey, really. Starbucks should tell all praying assholes to stay away.

Who the hell do they think they are, saying things you don't like?

[Maximumnegro]

6. Are you serious?

They are praying aloud because that's what most religious families do, period all over the planet. I could understand if they offered to put in a good word for you as well or directly bothered you in some way but you are being the intolerable one by bitching about it. Most of this planet is religious and most of them pray aloud at some point or other. So deal.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

10. What you say is not true. I don't see a spate of loud praying on Sunday

When I'm at a restaurant and a bunch of people from church come in.

[Maximumnegro]

38. You're saying worldwide people don't pray aloud

except at YOUR Starbucks.

ok.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

48. Uhhh...no. That's not what I said

[Javaman]

389. If they included a chorus, that would be kind of cool. nt

[BlueJazz]

33. Sorry..That's not the point. The point is: A lot of people are sick and tired of extreme Christens

..constantly trying to force their views on life into our laws and bedroom and marriage and just about everything else.

We-are-sick-of-it. Fed up. SO...it's NOT really because they prayed at a coffee house...It's because these same people will probably cause some Woman to have a back-ally abortion.

[Dreamer Tatum]

42. They were evidently praying to themselves.

If anything, the OP is encroaching on THEIR freedom, not the other way around.

If you're afraid that someone's prayer is really an attempt to induce a back-alley abortion, don't listen. Then it will have officially not happened, and there will be sterile stirrups and forceps for all.

[Mariana]

50. The OP made no attempt to stop them from praying.

So please explain how, exactly, the OP encroached on THEIR freedom?

[BlueJazz]

81. Again..THE POINT IS : These people (yes..these people) ..most likely...are the type of people who

...have caused more human suffering and sadness by consistently voting for the type of person who is:
1. Not very smart
2. Is mentally ill
3. Tries to force their Bible and beliefs on the rest of us.
4. Hates or is ignorant of science
5. Believes some really, really strange shit. (A talking snake?????)

I'm kind to them but if they start with their crazy-ass-crap ?....I get in their face.

[Dreamer Tatum]

85. What a goddamned bunch of shit nt

[BlueJazz]

119. LOL!....That may very well be true but that's how I feel. Here's one for you though >>>

A lot of historians and Scientists believe that if the dark ages (Religion-ruling state) did NOT happen, we would be on other planets by now, have most all diseases cured and etc, etc...

OK..OK...I'll say it for you "What a bunch of Crap!"

[Dreamer Tatum]

135. Yeah. I read my greatx25 grandfather's diary. He had solid state transistors all worked out

and then he was called on to pray and he forgot all about it.

[BlueJazz]

140. Oh...Well..I'm sure not going to win any friends today.

[Decoy of Fenris]

269. "A lot of historians and Scientists believe" Nope. Wrong, wrong, so very wrong.

The Dark Ages are called that not because of a religious ruling state, but because historical documentation fell notoriously absent for a long period of time; in actuality, a great deal of technological and scientific advances took place within the time period. Also, they're no longer considered the Dark Ages by historians, but the Saxon, or Viking (depending on who you're talking to) period.


Sorry to interrupt your righteous and no doubt well-deserved broadbrushing beatdown of religions, I just had to correct your hilariously uneducated understanding of history and theory. Please, continue at your leisure though. It's certainly... quite the read.

[okasha]

301. And while we're at it,

let's point out that the "Dark Ages" were a local phenomenon in Western Europe. Science, medicine, mathematics and related arts went happily along their uninterrupted way in the Christian Eastern Roman Empire, the Muslim lands and eastern Asia from Persia to China. None of them wound up on other planets, though.

[Decoy of Fenris]

307. Yup. The lack of knowledge of history sometimes astounds me, especially here. n/t

[BlueJazz]

374. I'll gladly take your word for it that I was wrong on that subject. As far as it being a Theory...

Last edited Fri Jul 12, 2013, 08:26 AM - Edit history (1)

..., I hope you mean the ordinary meaning of the word and not the scientific meaning.
I say this because the religious humans have always stopped progress in one way or the other...and I don't mean just with Galileo.

Actually. religious people have probably caused the loss of more than a thousand years of advancement. Whether or not we, as a race, would have done anything wonderful with it is an open question.
I despise the Fairy Tellers not because they are ignorant but because they're cruel.
Being a physicist and Atheist does not make me better or smarter than any other human..(I feel like I'm an idiot sometimes) but
it does bring the feeling that when I say God is less than nothing*, I'm 99.999 percent right. I must say, I do wish I had your way with words...

*Yes..I know about "Nothing"

[Decoy of Fenris]

390. I meant Theory in terms of historic theory.

Given that history is an abstract concept given the lack of unbiased and untainted sources including but not limited to destruction of information or "blank pages" in which little is recorded (The Saxon period, or the Dark Ages), everything we "Know" is a theory. That is the context which I meant.

Aye, I'll grant that in certain cases, religious zealotry has stymied technological advancement, but we differ on the matter of degree. Even in the most harshly, cruelly enforced theological societies, scientific discoveries have continued largely without retardation in almost every case, keeping in mind geographic isolationism or lack of certain natural resources or a clearly-defined infrastructure and trade system. You can't simply say "What If" with history; we, like scientists, work within given data variables which we presume are correct, even though there's as good a chance as any that they are not. When we say "Rome fell", we mean just that; we know that Rome fell. The "Why" and the "How" is in debate, but the overarching theme of "Rome Fell" is correct. "But what if..." is as ignorant a statement in History as "Because it is" might be in the scientific realm. Playing the "What-If" game will only lead to false understanding based on a flawed premise. "What if" is a nice mental exercise, but without corresponding evidence, it is just that; an exercise.

In regards to your religion debate, I won't be taking part. No one's minds will be changed, and as with -any- belief, not just religions, contradicting points of immovability will do nothing but breed animosity.

Good day to you, and my pardon for the delayed response.

[BlueJazz]

393. You said: "What if" is a nice mental exercise. Oh Yes..and I'm guilty of it quite a lot..

I suppose it comes with the job. Not the atheist part...or maybe it does ?

I deal with "What if" so much on a daily basis, it becomes a pattern of thought.
We may just be holograms on a quantum surface which might explain why the past is rather fuzzy...not just in our history but in reality.

Of course, having said that..if I go outside and get hit by a truck..It feels real !!

[Decoy of Fenris]

394. Ah, now we're getting into physics -and- philosophy.

I will admit, the idea of such a debate entertains me, but I'm getting back from work and I'm a mite fizzled, so forgive me when I don't rise to the engagement.

Now I think I'm going to go read up more on quantum phenomenon and theories. You've sparked my interest for the night.

[cordelia]

123. This

[Arugula Latte]

136. Well, you still haven't explained how the OP was infringing on the pray-ers freedom

by sitting there and saying nothing.

[Dreamer Tatum]

139. Because he'd be perfectly happy to have it taken away nt

[Arugula Latte]

145. Wow. The OP never implied or said anything of the sort.

Isn't someone on a web site allowed to sound off about minor irritations? The OP never called for any action. It was just an observation.

[hrmjustin]

111. So because I pray aloud a few times I am mentally ill. Oh and I hate science. And I am dumb!

And Lord knows I have a quota and I have to get new members.

Thank you for your insults!!!

[BlueJazz]

130. Oh...Come on ..you know better than that. I doubt (No..I'd bet my life) that you don't try to...

...force your Religious beliefs down everybody's throat.

And you know that I'm not talking about you.

Also.. I LIVE IN THE SOUTH. I hear there crazy politics every day.

[11 Bravo]

126. Congrats. That's one of the more naked expressions of bigotry I've seen at DU.

On behalf of progressive people of faith everywhere, just let me say ... nah, I better not. How about "Bless your heart"? (Ask a Southerner to explain it to you.)

[BlueJazz]

158. You and others here don't understand the word "Some" "Most Likely" or "some people"

Why do people get pissed-off when they KNOW (or should know) that my words are not about them.

People talk about MY job/life (Jazz Musician with perfect pitch) in a nasty way sometimes.
"Ahh..Those dope-head sons-a-bitches are lazy/no good"

I don't get pissed off because they're not talking about me.
Maybe it's because I'm Australian and we "Take things" differently ????

Maybe I don't make myself clear ??

[SlimJimmy]

175. You do understand that *some* people of faith are very proficient in self defense? I try not to get

in anyone's face for that very reason. But ... have at it if you think it will help.

[BlueJazz]

178. Doesn't bother me. A lot of good people have died for a lot less.

[SlimJimmy]

281. So, you'd be okay with death over an over jealous Christian in a public place? Have at it.

I don't think it bothers me nearly as much as it bothers you.

[BlueJazz]

306. What you say is true. I didn't become this intolerant in one day..It took many years. I would rate..

...(on a scale of 1 to 100) my combined tolerance for Blacks, Gays and every other things that people get intolerant over as .0000002.

With Christians, that vote for Stupid-Fucks ?.. 95.00

They change my life and the people I love.

[justiceischeap]

298. If the prayer was loud enough to be heard in a Starbuck's (have you ever been in one?)

then they obviously weren't praying to themselves. Praying to yourself is silent prayer. They were sharing their prayers with the entire room. They were the ones encroaching...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

51. yay! way to lump all praying people together

Nice job!

[premium]

53. So you oppose the 1A with a certain segment of the population

but approve of it with others?

[Mariana]

80. Oppose the 1A?

No one has said that these people don't have the right to pray at Starbucks or anywhere else. Neither has anyone said they shouldn't have the right to do so. Certainly the poster you're responding to didn't say anything like that. So where do you get this idea that the poster opposes the 1A for anyone?

[Kingofalldems]

189. It's his '1A' right to make things up.

[Mariana]

321. LOL, it is indeed. nt.

[Maximumnegro]

58. Wuh?

That makes no sense. That's borderline wing nut logic.

Let me guess: it's Obama's fault!

[hedgehog]

71. Sterotype much?There are a lot of dedicated Christians out there fighting for women's

reproductive rights. http://www.rcrc.org/issues/weaffirm.cfm

[Egalitarian Thug]

217. Yeah, they're just not very effective, are they?

If you are so delusional that you believe in the blatantly absurd notion of some omnipotent super-being watching over everyone and everything in the universe, coupled with the fact that you've chosen to continue that belief after millennia of some of the most atrocious behavior in history, why on earth would you think that anyone should pay any attention to what you say at all?

[hrmjustin]

87. This OP is about prayer not What extreme Christians think.

People are allowed to pray in public. At Sunday Brunch we pray a prayer before the meal and we don't disrupt people.

[Mariana]

116. Of course people are allowed to pray in public.

NO ONE on this thread, including the OP, has suggested otherwise.

[hrmjustin]

124. Yes I know that.

What I am more concerned with is the insults that some have made here against believers. I did not know I was ill, dumb, an attention whore, and that I hate science.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

131. It certainly wasn't my intention when I started the thread

[hrmjustin]

143. Don't worry about it because I was not talking about your OP.

A few others here went overboard on their posts.

[Mariana]

151. It's hilarious how so many people are pretending that:

1. You somehow attempted to prevent these people from praying, and/or

2. You don't think people should be allowed to pray publicly, and/or

3. You hate believers in general, and/or

4. You feel persecuted.

Et cetera, et cetera.

I'm sorry to be laughing when you're being treated so unfairly on this thread, with people jumping to wacky conclusions about you and even telling outright lies about you. I can't help it. These ridiculous overreactions to your OP are just funny as hell.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

160. I agree. Being a veteran of DU I know capricious

The mood can be. Back in 2003 I had a similar thread blow up when I made fun of Foxnews advertisement for Charlie Chan DVD's. Mentioned what horrible anachronistic stereotypes were in that series and we were off to the races! Pretty funny.

[7962]

230. I'm beginning to know what you mean....

having been labeled a "raging bigot" earlier today on another thread.

[nolabear]

88. I'm not a fan of "probably". And I don't think of public prayer as "extreme Christian".

I'm an atheist btw, and I agree that anyone trying to impose their religion based will on others is wrong. I will fight it whenever I can. But my statement that the misery is pointless and self imposed stands. If praying makes them feel happy, so be it. If restricting rights does, then I might have to work against their happiness.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

398. Thank you for that "biased" opinion

I use the word "biased" because I have been told that "bigoted" is not acceptable on DU.

You assume, based on nothing except your own prejudice, that because people pray in a Starbucks, they "will probably cause some Woman to have a back-ally abortion." No, I take back the word "biased". "Bigoted" is not too strong a word for you. And if you complain to the moderators, it just shows that you can dish out bigotry, but you can't take it when you are called on it.

[BlueJazz]

406. I never complain to the Mods and I may very well be biased on some things in life. I'm Human.

[Apophis]

191. They're not praying aloud to thank god for their meal.

They're praying aloud so everyone can see them praying aloud so everyone can see how religious they are.

They're attention whoring.

[Eleanors38]

7. Happened recently in an Austin Tex-Mex, loud and proud...

...but not as loud as the belch two tables down. Sounded like a leaf blower.

[hobbit709]

8. To use their own book against them Matthew 6:5

[Aerows]

59. Great minds think alike

I said the same thing upthread before I came across your post.

[Sissyk]

75. In their defense

(and I don't say that as a prayer), I don't think they ate anywhere but home way back then. Especially, no Starbucks!

[SunSeeker]

235. On the contrary, community eating places were quite common in the Roman era.

I recall a documentary I say about a dig of an ancient town in Italy that came up with all these houses with no kitchen or few places to prepare food, but there were large communal kitchens and food storage areas, with what would amount to large cafeterias for those people to eat together as a group. That would make sense to me, since food preparation was quite a laborious process in those days, and it makes sense they would do it as a community for efficiency of effort. Sorry, I don't have a link...

[Sissyk]

248. No link needed.

I believe you and probably saw the same documentary.

I was kinda being snarky. Growing up in a very religious family (it never "took" with me as grandma said), I know there is a difference between praying and saying the blessing as a family over a meal.

[HappyMe]

9. It's no worse than having to listen

to somebody's stupid phone conversation.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

19. You just gave me an idea. When I'm in Starbucks

I can chat on my iPhone with a fake conversation:

"Hi God, I just wanted to thank you again for the job offer I got last week......yes, yes it seems promising. I'm spending this week preparing to get a running start. How about you? What have you been up to?......uh huh....uh huh....OH MY YOU that is hilarious!"

[HappyMe]

25. Go ahead.

Makes about as much sense as some of the calls I get treated to.

[Igel]

129. Except that while everybody quotes Matt 5, they don't, not really.

There's that little "to be seen" business. Do it to be seen by others, yeah, it's bad. Do it at home.

If you're doing it so others in your group that are participating can consent to the contents and affirm them, well, it's hard to assent to what you haven't heard.

You don't know which was going on. That's your right, of course, to engage in fact-free judgmentalism. It's just not something to be proud of.

Then there's doing something just for the purpose of offending others. That, too, is your right. But, again, it's just not something to be proud of.

[PotatoChip]

149. +1

[bike man]

150. Now, THAT was an outstanding response. And I am a non-believer who married into

a family of believers (45 years ago). They (including bike woman) are still believers, and I remain a non.

When we gather, there are group prayers. They don't ask me to lead any of them, and none of the prayers said aloud actually harm me in any way.

I liked your response.

[Matariki]

147. Now THAT would be funny as hell!

lol

[pipi_k]

152. OK...

after playing that scenario around in my head for a bit, I have to say...

now that's funny!

If I ever heard anyone do that in my presence, I couldn't help but laugh.

[NightWatcher]

23. That's much worse

I've heard people discuss medical test results loudly over the phone.

Oh and I guess half of the starbuckers are writing a script or have a deal in development. They love to talk loudly about their screenplays they are writing. Me, I'm there to pick up a candy coffee drink for my wife.

[HappyMe]

41. Yeah, everybody there seems to be

oh so talented and important.

I have heard medical details, divorce details, complaints about what shoes somebody wore....

[Aerows]

92. You want to talk TMI?

I was in the ladies room and it was packed and a mother brought her very young son in there with her. He loudly asked, "Mommy are you going pee or are you going poop?" The mother responded "Honey, I don't think everyone in here needs to know that."

I nearly died laughing with everyone in the rest room.

[HappyMe]

104. lol!

Little kids are like that.

[Butterbean]

381. Yeah, my kids have done the same. Kids are great for embarrassing the hell out of you in public.

[Zen Democrat]

12. They are thanking God for an extremely overpriced bagel and coffee?

[Blue Owl]

180. Dontchya just have to laugh?

[BlueJazz]

13. I wish I would have been there. "OOHHH...Holy Spaghetti Monster..May your blessed appendages bring..

...forth thy sweet greasy meatball........etc.

Yes..I do weird stuff like that in public if the situation like the above takes place,,

[Arugula Latte]

148. Ramen!

I like your style.

[ajk2821]

250. Thus making you an attention whore

If you are doing it just to get attention, then you are the attention whore.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. Everybody audibly advocates for what they believe in.

As the entirety of this thread shows.

[nolabear]

16. Gosh. That's a small thing to get upset over. What about loud laughter if you're depressed?

Or the music on the PA if you don't like it? I know I'm being snarky but if it is something they believe in and it doesn't hurt you why waste the cortisol on it? You're just letting something over which you have no control make you feel bad and then being upset with them about it. Gives everyone control over your day.

[Neoma]

32. It's more annoying when they force you to do it at family gatherings.

When they know you're not religious. As in, "Come here BLANK..." *grabs your hands and bows head* "We're gathered here today to thank (blah, blah, blah.)"

Ahh, southern baptist relatives...

[nolabear]

63. I don't pray then, just sit quietly and respectfully.

I come from Southern Baptist too. They all pray for my soul and I just smile and go on. Glad they care and
I won't engage them. Now if they were hogtying me, that's a different story.

[Neoma]

73. Mine are mean spirit people though.

Well, racist homophobic bigots to be more accurate. Fox News watchers... And evangelical fundamentalist missionaries. I think they're too full of hate to really care.

[nolabear]

96. Mine too but they don't realize it. But I insist on being me and they can throw a fit if they like.

I know where you're coming from, though. It can get trying.

[Neoma]

157. That's not the case with my folks.

My grandmother is a bully...treated me lke shit since I was 9 because I didn't get baptized. They're also okay with domestic violence. As in, the husband kept beating up his wife and one day he got the preacher and his wife to beat the shit out of her with him and the reaction was, "I wonder what she did." Since after all, the preacher was involved! Must mean she did something evil.

My uncle threatened to kill me when I was 14 and they pushed off about how I was lying. Even though they knew he pointed a shotgun at grandma just a week before all that bullshit. He talks in tongues to control "urges." ...Onto his fourth wife now.

At least two people threatened someone I love to be committed because she's atheist. Including the cop uncle that would have come if we called about my other uncle that threatened to kill me. (For turning the TV off.) So no justice happened there.

No. Fuck em. Their entire life is built on worshipping God. And it tore our family apart. I'm sick of it. They might not be "real Christians" like so many religious people point out, but they're real southern baptists to the core. When it comes to the point where they're using the bible to pass bigoted opinions and to justify or forgive misdeeds, I'm out and I'm not going back.

[hedgehog]

172. Now - that's a very different picture from the one I had -

proof positive that not all people who "pray" are Christians despite what they call themselves. I'm in awe that you were able to break free from that mindset. and hope you find a lot of friends here .

What I was thinking of was the scenario where someone comes home and makes a fuss because the folks are still doing what they've always done in terms of praying before meals. Among my children, there is an atheist, an Episcopalian, a very dedicated Roman Catholic, two moderately dedicated Roman Catholics and another who may go to a Roman Catholic Church or his wife's Lutheran Church, I haven't asked. A while back, I switched to going to an Episcopalian Church. My kids are all good people, which is all I'm concerned about.

I haven't told my aunt that I switched churches because it hasn't come up and I don't see a need to cause her distress. Personal beliefs are personal and not meant to be used as a club on other people.

[Neoma]

212. Ah, my relatives are missionaries as well.

Dunno how many times they asked us over for the weekend just so they could trick us to going to church. Then we'd spend whole summers there for bible camp. Made me give away my entire penny collection! (Yes, I'm still mad about that.)

People assume that atheists (although I'm a pantheist, the mindset is a bit the same since the universe isn't a personal God) criticize religion because they hate god or whatever stupid nonsense. But sometimes it goes back to actual abuse or way too much absurdity for one person to handle. Sometimes it's them talking about very specific people. Then what other people say reminds them of those people and you can go on an all around attack mode. That's instinct talking. I don't mind if people keep it to themselves. But maybe now you can see why it would trigger annoyance to hear prayers in public. It reminds me of them.

[nolabear]

199. And you are smart do do so. Sometimes it's best.

I'm so sorry you have a family like that and so glad you are away from it. People who are really sick can use all kinds of things to justify it and religion is one of the most common.

[hedgehog]

78. Do they pray together when you're not there?

[Neoma]

90. Yeah, right before they make loud racist jokes when a black family sits near them.

[hedgehog]

132. Making racist jokes meant to be overheard - now

that's offensive!

[BlueJazz]

36. Read post #33

[BOG PERSON]

260. good advice

[cilla4progress]

17. Don't ask don't tell

about your extreme religiosity. I miss that...

[Dr. Strange]

18. You should write a diary like Anne Frank did...

so that years from now people can learn from your suffering.

[Go Vols]

24. lol

[hrmjustin]

31. LMFAO!

[BlueJazz]

37. read post #33

[reflection]

40. DUzy! n/t

[Pretzel_Warrior]

45. Lol. I only said I didn't like it. My day continues

To be sunny and wonderful. But thank you for the good advice.

[Maximumnegro]

70. Well it bothered you enough to

post your own thread.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

91. And?

It got what I wanted. An implied question to the group of "what are your thoughts on this?"...and DU didn't disappoint.

[Mariana]

95. Lots of people post about minor annoyances.

It takes seconds, so why not? It's not like the OP wrote a manifesto.

[el_bryanto]

99. If it was a just a minor annoyance it would be posted in the lounge

This is intended to make a point; i.e. religious folks should be more circumspect in their observance.

Bryant

[Pretzel_Warrior]

164. Wow! You're a mind reader!

[el_bryanto]

165. It's just logic - but you explain it - why did you want to post this in General

As opposed to the lounge or religion?

Bryant

[Pretzel_Warrior]

167. Because I spend 99% of my time on DU in GD

And it didn't occur to me to post it somewhere else.

It is a fair general discussion topic.

[el_bryanto]

173. Exactly you are making a political point

People shouldn't pray in public because it annoys you.

I totally understand where you are coming from - i really hate seeing Latinos speaking Spanish in public. It's just sad that my disdain for seeing Latino's speaking Spanish in public would be condemned as bigotry, while your disdain for seeing people praying is A-OK.

Why can't we just all agree that people who do offensive stuff like praying or speaking Spanish should keep it to themselves?

Bryant

[Pretzel_Warrior]

208. I hope you understand that is completely a false equivalence

[el_bryanto]

285. No it's not. You don't like seeing religious folks and I don't like seeing foreign speaking folks

It's the same thing. Nothing forces Latinos and other Spanish speakers to speak Spanish in public. They can choose to speak English or keep their mouths shut.

Bryant

[Pretzel_Warrior]

294. no. I'm pretty sure you are way off base. if Latinos started hat dancing next to my table

or something similarly overt and obnoxious, it would be equivalent. Someone simply talking in their own language is in no way provocative as is praying loudly over your cold and boring bagel.

[el_bryanto]

296. So basically your hatred of seeing people praying is meaningful

while my hatred of seeing Spanish speaking people speaking spanish isn't? How does that work?

Is it possibly because disdain or hatred of Christians is protected at DU?

Bryant

[Pretzel_Warrior]

299. nope. I could care less what Christians waste their time doing at church. have at it.

but when they have to get into their deeply personal worship of their God loudly next to me in Starbucks, I will comment on it.

[el_bryanto]

300. Nods - and that comment will, as you no doubt have noticed - draw additional comment. nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

308. which is fine. I don't take others' comments personally

on this topic. Especially the religious people who are serious about their religion.

[Arugula Latte]

118. Isn't that part of the fun of DU? We often post about crap that bugs us.

It's a nice place to vent, or get a discussion/debate/all out flame-fest going.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

128. No kidding. I really didn't expect this to blow up

Tou never can tell what will hit a nerve. But I am reading all of the replies and find the discussion fascinating.

[Mariana]

236. I'm supposed to be packing up to move

and I keep getting drawn back here to revisit this thread.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

244. funny. good luck with the move. very far? side note:

I think that is part of the genesis (oops I quoted the Bible) of my posting. I just recently moved from Portland to Spokane, and I'm already finding out the religion is a bit more important here. So after going years without a public prayer being bleated loudly in front of me in a restaurant or shop, I am here less than a month and am subjected to it. So I am kind of questioning my decision to move here for a job.

[Mariana]

276. Nah, just to an adjacent town. 15 minutes away.

I lived in the Deep South for a long time, and I worked in restaurants for several years, so I know exactly the kind of people your OP was about. They are everywhere, but they're certainly more concentrated in some areas than in others.

In Texas, when I lived there, my family were actually shunned by our neighbor across the street after my husband told him (politely, in response to his question) that we don't go to church. The man wouldn't speak to us or wave or even look at us after that. His wife would smile and wave when she saw us outside - but only when her husband wasn't there. True story.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

284. that doesn't surprise me. I am hopeful this small city isn't quite so uptight...but

I'm going to a neighborhood BBQ in the subdivision I live in so I don't seem to anti social. We will see what topics come up and if they go into the whole what church do you go to kind of thing.

[Sissyk]

89. lo!!!

[nolabear]

121. I'd recommend a DUzy but I don't want the thread rehashed. But...

LMAO!

[msanthrope]

240. So stealing this....nt

[Skip Intro]

303. Perfect!

[Logical]

20. But asshole cops you are ok with? LOL. n-t

[Pretzel_Warrior]

65. Never said I was ok with ass hole cops

But feel free to conflate my disagreement about one video as having no problem with ass hole cops.

[WestStar]

21. Well, we all have our crosses to bear.

eom

[Arcanetrance]

22. Meh they have the right to do so there are many more important things to be upset over

[Blackford]

26. Matthew 6:5-6

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

[think]

35. Spot on /nt

[Rhiannon12866]

221. You know, I immediately thought of that, as well, though I couldn't quote it

GMTA and welcome to DU!

[WovenGems]

27. What?

Who would one be praying to in a Starbucks? Jaun Valdez?

[el_bryanto]

28. I was in a restaurant and I saw a couple speaking in spanish

Really honked me off. I get it - you're Latino. But you probably speak English too.

If you are trying to show off your Latino heritage - well it has the opposite of the intended effect.

Yours truly, normal white guy, just trying to enjoy his spiced cider and newspaper in peace.

Bryant

[Dreamer Tatum]

34. Don't even get me started on those damn Muslims

How many times a day do they need to pray, anyway? Why do they have to make such a ritual of it?

(Gee, I wonder what'd happen if that was the OP...)

[Igel]

146. Once was in a coffeehouse in Georgetown.

We'd attended a conference at GU. We weren't in jeans and t-shirts.

We had a trilingual (at times, quadrilingual) conversation. English speakers were free to use English, Spanish speakers Spanish; French speakers, French. Everybody had good control of at least two of those languages, and sufficient passive knowledge of the third. The Portuguese speaker was given license to speak Portuguese, but put on notice he might have to explain in another.

It wasn't to show off. We'd switch if the dominant language at the time was Spanish, and fall silent if the French speakers had the floor. There were perhaps 6, 7 of us crowded around a table.

We got great service and while we didn't order much in the way of food or drink, nobody tried to drive us out on a busy Saturday night. Instead of poor undergraduates and foreign students the staff assumed we were diplomatic corps. On the way out, a waiter asked what embassies we were with.

[hrmjustin]

29. When the clergy of my church take us out for brunch we say a prayer together. We are not loud or

annoying. There is nothing wrong with saying grace aloud as long as you are not loud and disruptive.

[olddots]

39. you gotta be shitting me

I've seen people cross themselves before going into the water but never seen people saying grace at a fucking starsucks .

We are DEVO !

[reflection]

43. That's why I go to church and slurp my coffee real loudly in the front pew. n/t

[Arugula Latte]

54. :)

[cordelia]

44. Brace yourself!

Some unknowing fool may wish you a "blessed day" or some other atrocity some day! You never know, so be prepared!

Oh, the humanity!

[olddots]

47. you should have posted this in the lounge

n.t.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

57. Why? It's about religious expression in public

Not my favorite sandwich.

[olddots]

94. i was sticking up for you pal

people get on your case because it seems like that's what you want . Forget you wouldn't might not understand .

[Pretzel_Warrior]

102. My apologies to you. It just didn't seem lounge

Material, but maybe I'm wrong

[gvstn]

49. I'm not religious and border on anti-religious these days

But I don't see anything wrong with a family holding hands and being thankful for their meal. Whether I believe in their god or not, I think it instills a sense of gratitude or well-being in people that is mostly lacking. A quick saying of grace before a meal doesn't offend me especially when children are present. A couple loudly saying grace at Starbucks could be annoying but there are worse things in the world which I must endure.

Full disclosure my family still says grace at holiday dinners. I also go to monthly dinners that help support a local ministry that provides meals for those in need. Grace is said there and I always feel the Brothers are sincere with their words and take no offense, and also find it rather spiritually satisfying to be reminded that there are truly compassionate people left in this world that enjoy helping others without judgement.

[southernyankeebelle]

52. People who pray like that in public are looking for attention. I think it doesn't help their

cause for the love of their god. I don't have a problem with them praying over their food but when I see it I think they are looking for attention. I've prayed over my food but I did it in silence because I think god hears me. A true christain doesn't have to be attention getters. They go about doing their business quietly. They know god see their deeds.

[Puzzledtraveller]

114. You know the intentions of others?

[southernyankeebelle]

322. It's an observation thats all friend. I'm entitled to believe what I want. I think they are

fake. So it is what I believe. You believe different. Ok your entitled. Believe me I have worked in a chapel and saw alittle of hypocrites. Do and say one thing and outside the church do another. Kinda like republicans who pretend they are religious but aren't really. But again that is my observation and maybe you don't feel that way and that is ok.

[lynne]

56. No different than hearing someones cell phone conversation in public -

- instead of talking with Momma or Aunt Bertha, they're talking to their God.

I wish we didn't have to be subjected to everyones personal business via open cell phone conversations but it goes on so often that I've learned to tune it out. Yes, they talk on cells even in restaurants. Just pretend they're talking on a cell phone and learn to ignore it.

[winter is coming]

68. Well, usually there are fewer f-words...

[Tien1985]

340. To be fair,

Lots of people here and elsewhere complain a bunch about people on cell phones, whether they are talking or even silently texting. Loud, distracting or disjointed interruptions can and do annoy others in public and it really is okay to complain about it.

I take praying *loudly* (key word) over food about as rude as talking at a movie theater. No one wants to hear it. Sure they have the right, but they're a jerk if they exercise the right.

[HereSince1628]

399. The cell phone comparison was my first thought, but

I'm part of the population that was raised that carrying on conversations with persons not present was at least a sign of lack of self-control.

Back in the day, there were phone booths, for more than one reason...and we were taught to keep our super-hero personas to ourselves.

[lynne]

400. I'm part of that population, too -

- sadly, I think we're a vanishing breed. Personally, I think it's just horribly rude to be in the company of one person and then stop that conversation to answer your phone and pick up a different conversation with another person.

For a brief period in history, it was a status thing to talk on a cell in public as few people had them. They were called "mobile phones" then. Now it's just become obnoxious behavior.

[LibAsHell]

60. Wrong? No.

Obnoxious? Hell-fucking-yes.

[brooklynite]

62. next time it happens, LOUDLY read from the Bible...

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (Matthew 6:6)

[noamnety]

64. "opposite of the intended effect"

lol, sort of ironic in this thread.

I kind of feel bad for you (for starting the thread, I mean), but if the goal was to get a bunch of DUers to rise up in outrage over private individuals saying a prayer in public it's probably not gonna happen.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

83. Nope. Just sharing. The last thing I expect from

DU is unanimity on any subject.

[MineralMan]

66. I'm an atheist. I don't hate it if people pray in public.

I just turn my attention to something else when that happens. First world problem, I think.

I assume that people are doing what they want to do, just as I am. Their prayers have no effect on me.

[Maximumnegro]

79. Exactly if you're an atheist/agnostic is shouldn't

bother you at all. It should be only as annoying as any other loud conversation people will have at say someplace people tend to converse like, say, a Starbucks.

Sheesh.

[MineralMan]

98. Yup. Loud conversations in places like that are

annoying, but even that isn't really much of an issue for me. In a place like Starbucks, I would simply pick up my cup and move to a table farther away from the conversation if it bothered me. I've done that frequently, when some business meeting is going on nearby and I'm trying to woo a client myself, which is about the only time I'm ever in a coffee place, anyhow.

As a self-employed guy, I don't bother with having an office, and either meet prospective clients at their office, or at one of the ubiquitous coffee places at a convenient location. It's neutral ground, and it's just me and my notebook and my presentation to the client.

Praying? Who cares?

[RebelOne]

181. Atheist here and it doesn't bother me either.n/t

[Mariana]

103. I don't either, unless they're inappropriately loud.

In a quiet place, there's no reason to say prayers in a loud voice - unless the intention is to make sure everyone in the place can hear them.

[MineralMan]

107. Lots of loud voices saying lots of things, it seems.

I just move. I take meetings in coffee shops, since I'm self-employed. If there are loud-talkers at a nearby table, we just move to a quieter spot. Simple.

Praying, discussing last night's game, anything. It doesn't matter. If it's too loud, I move.

[Arugula Latte]

67. Agree that it's annoying.

And frankly it always creeps me out.

Of course they're "allowed" to do it, just as we're "allowed" to comment on a web site that it's irritating.

Luckily I rarely have to deal with these people, who Barbara Ehrenreich labeled "Visible Christians" in Nickeled and Dimed. She said they were invariably the cheapest, worst tippers she waited on.

[Mariana]

335. That was my experience

when I waited tables in Alabama, Florida, and Georgia. No one ever wanted to work Sunday lunch, and the Wednesday evening shift was almost as bad.

I always wished we could put a sign on the door that would say something like, Praying loudly before you eat and displaying your Bible prominently on the table does not magically transform a Chick tract into an acceptable tip.

[Arugula Latte]

349. Oh man.

A Chick tract ... That is pretty bad! I feel for you.

[polichick]

72. Like the Pharisees Jesus talked about.

[Dash87]

74. This could be taken 2 ways

1 - they were softly praying to themselves, in which case what is it to the OP?

2 - they were being obnoxious and praying loudly to ruffle some feathers, much like the "under GOD!!!" assholes during the pledge of allegiance.

[TheCowsCameHome]

76. I've prayed a few times in restaurants

because the food tasted funny after a few bites.

"Dear Lord, I hope I'm not going to be sick from this shit"

[Cali_Democrat]

82. To be honest with you

I don't think I've ever seen that in public. I would find it somewhat creepy.

[markiv]

86. better than someone YELLING INTO THEIR CELL PHONE!!!

which of course, has never happened in a starbucks

[tammywammy]

100. If you want to enjoy your coffee & newspaper in peace you should just stay home.

Then you won't have to worry about the pesky public talking or distracting you.

[MurrayDelph]

105. The hypocrisy of praying loudly to Jesus in public

is a long-standing one that will probably never go away. And it us no worse than the screaming kid, loud phone talkers, or earbuds turned up high enough to be loudspeakers.

At least they aren't actively impeding people who don't want to join in, unlike the family in Florida that made the waitress hold the tray full of plates while they said grace before she could finish serving them, or the church group that blocked the entire corridor at LAX while they prayed for a safe flight.

[Igel]

161. Depends on motive.

My church opened with a communal prayer.

Hard to have a silent communal prayer that everybody else says amen to.

Rather like having an blank post on DU and then getting 100 recs for it. It would take a very unusual set of conditions for that to happen.

Same for saying grace. Sometimes my family says it individually. Then it's silent. Sometimes we say it as a group. Then those not saying it have to be able to hear it. Those of us who aren't fully telepathic, that is.

[MurrayDelph]

177. Missed the point

In church everyone there is there for prayer.

My point is that they could have let the waitress put the food down and go serve other people instead of having to wait while they demonstrate their piety. And they could have left part of the corridor open so others could have gotten past them and to their planes. But no, their need to pray loudly in public to the demigod whose very instructions they are ignoring by doing so is more important than being considerate (which would bethe more Christian thing to do).

And by the ways, the Jewish Sabbath and High Holiday services have something called the Amidah, which is a silent communal prayer. If we can do it, you should be able to figure it out, too. (Here's a hint, when you're done you get to sit down).

[FarCenter]

106. "Have a blessed day" (as the obnoxious cafeteria lady used to say).

[RebelOne]

187. I am in red Georgia and I hear that from a lot of the salespeople and grocery checkers.

And I just say "same to you." I am an atheist, but it does not bother me.

[Xyzse]

108. How loud is loud?

It is not as if they are praying the rosary. I'd leave them be.
I don't even mind seeing people take their prayer rugs and face Mecca.

I don't consider myself religious, but giving thanks for food is kinda nice.

I think people forget to be grateful for little things, and even if just holding your hands together and saying "Thanks for the food" is a good little practice.

Tolerance goes both ways.

[riqster]

109. Waaaah.

Freedom of speech. We are all entitled to it.

[YarnAddict]

113. What other people do

doesn't bother me a bit. Maybe if everyone could mind their own business, it would be a much better world.

[Arugula Latte]

125. So the religious should stop knocking on doors and pushing their silly stories on people

who just want to carry on peacefully with their day in their own homes.

[YarnAddict]

162. this isn't about knocking on doors.

Totally different issue.

[Arugula Latte]

190. LOL! Oh, that is rich.

You said people should "mind their own business." Intruding on people in their homes is the very opposite of minding their own business.

Double standard on your part.

[YarnAddict]

332. Huh??

No double standard. I have no problem with other people praying in a public place. Doesn't affect me at all. OTOH, someone knocking on my door and invading my privacy very much affects me, and I object strenuously. Don't see why you think this is a double standdard.

[Arugula Latte]

350. Oh, okay. I misunderstood your post.

I thought you were saying that door knocking wasn't an invasion of privacy.

[Yo_Mama]

207. Yes.

And maybe then we could concentrate on our real and growing problems.

[upaloopa]

115. I agree it is annoying and shows a lack of consideration

We put up with a lot from them yet we are accused of being in the wrong. I hate proselytizing. You should be invited into other people's space not just shove your shit in their face.

[hrmjustin]

117. There are some nasty and insulting posts in this thread that make me sick.

I did not know I was ill, stupid, hate science, and an attention whore.

[Mariana]

216. Maybe this will make you feel better.

Matthew 5:11 & 12 (KJV)

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

[hrmjustin]

274. Yes thank you that does comfort me. Thank you Mariana!

[Mariana]

278. You're welcome. nt.

[Apophis]

359. I'll quit insulting religious idiots when they quit trying to interfere with people's lives.

[hrmjustin]

361. Are we all idiots? Am I interfering in your life?

[Apophis]

362. Your first question: yes.

Second question: Not you personally. But the religion as a whole, yes.

[hrmjustin]

363. So just so I have this right I am an idiot for being a Christian.

[TheCowsCameHome]

120. This is low on my list of things to be upset about.

I'd ignore it and read my paper.

[HockeyMom]

122. Get up, give them a dirty look,

and change your table. Ok, they have their right to pray, but you also have a right to not listen to it. You are not a captive audience to anyone's praying.

[MuseRider]

127. I was raised among those kinds of loud Christians

my parents thankfully were not like that but the entire rest of my dad's family was. They still are but they really have little to do with me since I don't follow their religion. Sadly, they are about all the family I have left.

Anyway, having grown up with that and been subject to sitting in a Wendy's (or McDonald's or any other place like a Quik Shop buying a coke) while my Uncle went on and on loudly proclaiming his faith and love of his baby Jesus and thy will be done and bring 'em some of that old time religion, THOU ART HEALED crap I totally understand why this annoys you.

My husband has to look at me sternly when a waitress says to have a blessed day. I know it is meant as something nice but the religious overtone of that just pisses me off. I simply can't help it. It is not the religion really, I tend to be so/so about it, I don't care what one believes. It is the in your face, look at me I AM A CHRISTIAN crap that puts me over the edge.

I suppose if I had not had to be healed and saved 1000 times by these people as a little kid because my dad thought they were full of shit (he was evil so I needed to be saved in his name) I would be a little more tolerant.

[MotherPetrie]

133. I hate religious showoffs too. There's no reason they can't silently suck up to their diety.

[Iggo]

134. If they're that loud, get loud.

If not, just give 'em the fuck-you smile and be done with it.

[Peregrine Took]

137. They say that they are deliberately doing it in public to

show other people that it can be done, they should do it, too, shouldn't be ashamed, etc.

[Mariana]

168. Thereby directly disobeying their Lord and Savior

(if they're Christians) who told his followers to pray in private. Christ was pretty clear about his opinion of people who pray loudly in public just to be seen doing it. He didn't think highly of such people.

[snappyturtle]

141. I'm so glad to have found a topic I can agree with you on!

When you explained...."praying quite loudly"...that did it. I don't care if it's praying, talking on a cell phone, or chatting loudly with a companion...If it's loud enough to be disturbing, it's too loud.

Generally I don't have a clue as to the conversation at the next table in a restaurant. If I do...I think of those folks as being discourteous to all around them.

[Cleita]

142. It's none of your business. If they were talking to each other, would

you care? Just because they are talking to the air, they aren't talking to you. You shouldn't be annoyed. Tune them out and go about your business.

[Matariki]

144. Why does it bother you?

Are they talking louder than anyone else? Is it any worse than a bunch of self important jerks having a business meeting next to you at Starbucks?

[Matariki]

153. I've dined in restaurants with show-off Thelemites

Talk about embarrassing and annoying. Sitting with a group of people in a restaurant who do this:

Leader: (knocks 3-5-3) Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
All: What is thy will?
Leader: It is my will to eat and to drink.
All: To what end?
Leader: That I may fortify my body thereby.
All: To what end?
Leader: That I may accomplish the Great Work.
All: Love is the law, love under will.
Leader: (knocks once) Fall to!

[rl6214]

154. To each their own

Religious freedom and all.

Get over it.

[Redford]

156. Sounds like intolerance to me.

Lighten up, Francis. As long as they were not trying to baptize you with their chai latte or make you eat a live chicken on your bagel, I say give it a rest.

[Mariana]

336. Oh, please. Griping on a message board

about being annoyed by obnoxious people is not "intolerance".

The OP left them alone to do their thing, and did not try to make them stop, or say anything to them at all, even though he or she didn't like what they were doing. That is the exact opposite of "intolerance".

[doc03]

166. You think that is bad I saw a couple looking to the ceiling and waving their hands

in the air. I think it is just show "see we are saved and going to heaven and you aren't"

[Pelican]

169. Definitely sounds like your problem....

... and not theirs.

Your life will be come infinitely easier if you stop judging and caring what other people do that doesn't affect you.

[allin99]

185. I'd rather hear that than their screaming children. Can i get an Amen.

[HappyMe]

211. Changing a dirty diaper at the table.

[MineralMan]

171. You know what's worse?

Listening to one 20-something woman providing the details of the previous night's sexual encounter to another 20-something woman. That's worse. I moved before hearing much of it.

"and then, just as I was about to..."

TMI.

[Apophis]

198. See, that's one conversation I wouldn't mind hearing.

I'm only half-kidding.

[MineralMan]

202. Well, I never heard what she "was about to..."

I had picked up my beverage and was moving to a different spot. Not my cuppa chai latte, I guess.

[LanternWaste]

179. I s'pose a benign tradition that affects no one and no thing is indeed

I s'pose a couple expressing a benign tradition that affects no one and no thing is indeed, something to engender hatred.

[0zone]

184. Why must they spend their entire life praying over every morsel of their food?

Thank their god once a year by simply praying.....This is my yearly thanks for all the food I receive next year. Then move on with their life and become good-doers and help the poor or something like that.

[allin99]

195. Sometimes it's good to be thankful for the things they we...

take for granted every day. Some people give no thanks, some people give thanks once a year, personally, once a year doesn't work for me. I don't pray over my food but i remind myself to be thankful for food, a job and a roof over my head, also thankful people know me by name, and care about me. A lot of people have none of those things and many people don't have as much as all of those things. It's good to not take them for granted, and if that means saying it every day, nothing wrong with that. Being thankful hardly takes up any time at all.

[Yo_Mama]

218. Maybe some others are not so enlightened as you

and need more constant reminders?

When I was a kid I was taught to say grace. The words were, "Thank you, Lord, for your bounty. Bless this food to our use and us to your service, and make us ever mindful of the needs of others. Amen."

I don't think being taught to be thankful that we have food to eat and reminding ourselves that others do not so that we should share what we do have is a bad or hypocritical custom.

I do not often follow this custom myself, but I do find it helpful when I am very grieved, especially by the loss of a family member. Then it reminds me that things could be worse, that I should try to be thankful for what I do have, and that the way to deal appropriately with suffering and sorrow is to try to improve the lives of others. At least it does not leave one in the isolation of grief.

[jeff47]

232. Control

If your religion does not constantly remind you about your deity's importance, you might start to think your deity, and his earthly swindlers...er...messengers aren't quite so important.

[SlimJimmy]

291. Yep, and I think those of the Muslim faith praying five times a day is waaaay overboard. They

should just pray once for the year and be done with it.

[zappaman]

193. "Thank you God for this shitty coffee and barely edible bagel."

Makes sense to me!

[Brigid]

196. I wear a religious medal.

It's not particularly large or conspicuous, but it's visible. Do you hate that too?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

219. no. and neither does the sight of a nun turn me apoplectic

in the right mood, and if she's young enough it can be a turn on. j/k.

[NYC_SKP]

197. "Let us pray...."

[Warpy]

200. I don't mind a bit in a food court when the occupants

of the next table join hands to mumble over their food. That's their right and it doesn't bother me a bit.

I do mind it when anyone in any situation in public feels compelled to declaim his prayers, politics or sex life.

[cbayer]

205. I hate it when people "pray" over their cell phones aloud in public.

Sitting in Starbucks, this couple sits down next to me with their bagel and coffee and pick up their iPhones and start talking quite loudly to whoever about their fine mid morning snack. Ugh!

I get it. You love your iPhone. But supposedly there is a way to send messages silently. Don't underestimate the magical powers of your smart phone.

And if you were trying to "bear witness" to the greatness of your iPhone..it had the opposite of the intended effect.

Yours truly, a person who does not have a smart phone who is just trying to enjoy her coffee and newspaper in peace.

[thelordofhell]

206. At least they're not yappin' on a phone or yellin' at their tablet........

I really don't care about what god or goddess you worship, but I really REALLY don't care about your cell phone buddy or game of fruit ninja you just lost.............

[Deep13]

209. Seems silly to me, but I do not hate it.

I guess if it happen all the time it would get on my last nerve.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

210. I hate it when they show off like that.

They have ugly purses with large rhinestone crosses on them. This one is more modest than the ones I've seen.



And a charm bracelet with a bunch of crosses hanging off it, and two inch long cross earrings, and a cross necklace, and I want to ask them:

"Do you have a vampire problem?"

I hate the assumption where I live that A) Everybody is a Christian; and B) everyone is a particular type of Christian, Protestant and evangelical and conservative.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

224. lol

[Rob H.]

214. I'm more bothered by people on cell phones...

who go through a line at a store, have their items rung up, bagged, pay for them and go on their merry way without ever once making eye contact with or in any way acknowledging the clerk. That's just fucking rude.

I've never seen people praying in restaurants here in the Bible Belt, fwiw, and the one person I knew who did pray in public was one of the most vile people I've ever met but I try not to let that view extend to other people who do the same. She was a backstabbing, vindictive, lying, manipulative nutjob but she would've been that way even without bringing religion into the equation--I'm convinced there was something wrong with the way her brain was wired.

[Ian David]

215. That's when you take the salt and make a pentagram on your table and offer a latte to Satan. n/t

[Politicalboi]

220. Never had that happen to me

What I hate is when someone says "God Bless" They have NO idea if you believe, and it's insulting.

[Mira]

227. plus oh so many sighs and amens n/t

[NuclearDem]

228. This OP is almost exactly the caricature of atheists and agnostics the religious think of

I'm an atheist and I could really give two shits about someone praying aloud (or even silently for that matter) at a public place.

I'll let them enjoy their steak in peace if they'll let me enjoy my baby in peace

[Pretzel_Warrior]

270. that was funny

[Arugula Latte]

324. I just had a vision of an atheist pick-out-your-own baby restaurant:

"Yeah, I'll take that nice juicy plump one over in the corner of that playpen...No, not that crawler, that other one next to it..."

I did like to nibble on my kids' fat little arms and legs when they were babies and toddlers, though. Maybe that's my "gateway" to actual baby eating.

[RoccoR5955]

229. When that happens...

I shout RAMEN! at the top of my lungs,
And ask everyone to say a prayer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and ask that they all be touched by his noodly appendages!

[Crow73]

231. itadakimasu

[AsahinaKimi]

373. Haiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!

Itadakimasu!!!!!

[Fantastic Anarchist]

233. I can understand you being annoyed ...

... and it would annoy me (but it's never happened to me), but it is their right.

Rights can be annoying sometimes, but I like having them.

[VA_Jill]

237. Matthew 6:6

"But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you."

Obviously these types are nothing but Pharisees......all show. If they really believed in their holy book, they would pay attention to this verse too.

[Hubert Flottz]

243. Me too and...

When I see that I don't trust the food either.

I don't want to eat somewhere the costumers have to pray because the food may need divine intervention.

"And lord please don't let the hamburger and fries wipe out little Betty and Billy and lord Granny and Gramps might have a few quality years left in them, so please don't let the blue plate special send them on to eternity, until I'm sure the will is made out to only me and me alone!"

"PS, Lord you leave the tip again this time, if you feel that the service was worthy."

[Hubert Flottz]

252. What really gets me is...

when they haul out their snakes and start rolling around on the floor saying things I don't understand. I'm too old to run fast.

Seriously...if a Muslim hauled out his prayer rug in the place and got down to face Mecca, the others who had been praying would be ready to lynch the Muslim.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

273. damn that was funny

especially about the cheap tipping bit

[Aelyria]

249. I hate when people act all 'urban' over their meal aloud in public

Yeah, I claim to be tolerant of them and dont actively prevent them from enjoying their culture, but I silently judge them and just plain don't like them.

Too bad I can't label them by religion or this would be a totally kosher thing to say.

[Capt. Obvious]

258. That's mighty white of you

[Aelyria]

271. Keepin it classy.

ROFL, I knew I shouldve tossed a sarcasm tag in there

[LiberalLovinLug]

253. A good reaction would be...

If I was sitting at the table next to them with a friend, after they had finished would be to hold hands ourselves and loudly give thanks to the Great Spaghetti Monster in the sky.

[jtuck004]

255. If the food is so bad they have to pray over it b4 they eat it, maybe you should find

another restaurant.

[Aerows]

257. I live in the South

and yes, this happens, and no, it's not nitpicking or because you hate religion. It's because people pray so loudly that they are daring people to object to them praying over their conversations and disrupting their meals that they are paying for just like the praying group is paying for. They probably wouldn't appreciate someone discussing sex loudly at the table next to them, or cursing every other word loudly, so I don't see why people can't tone it down when they are in public. No one cares if you pray.

People DO care if you pray so loudly or fervently that it interrupts the meal they are paying for. I don't need to be witnessed to over lunch or dinner. If I was interested, I would have gone to your church for that.

[Aelyria]

263. I live in the south too.

have you ever seen anyone 'aggressively' praying?

Did they circle your table and chant in your ear? Chant the hymns over a bullhorn? Pretend they were restaurant employees and clap while they sang "happy happy birthday, tgank Christ for your very special day"?

[Aerows]

268. You aren't in the part of the South I'm in, then

or have never been to an all-you-can-eat buffet which is where the Evangelicals hang out (because they don't serve alcohol). If you have never sat next to a group of Pentecostals, readily identified by the lack of makeup, uncut hair and long skirts, you have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'll wager that plenty of people know EXACTLY what I'm talking about, including the poster that posted this.

[Aelyria]

275. ummmm....

I'm in NC. All I see are college kids and white collars.

Your description sounds more like hippies than hicks.

And I LOVE bbq buffets.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

279. spend some time in Southwest Missouri or parts of Oklahoma, Texas, etc. many fundies

who go nuts at the opportunity to wear their religion on their sleeve.

[Aerows]

316. Clearly

Pentecostal sound like hippies!? The two are wider apart than the Atlantic ocean.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

277. that was a weird post

[Aelyria]

288. misconceptions

The way people talk about the South, you'd think you couldn't enter the state without declaring your faith under polygraph...

...I dont see it

[Pretzel_Warrior]

295. well, if you live in the Research Triangle of NC or northern Virginia outside DC, you probably

wouldn't see it. But go a little further to the mountains in NC and you will see it all the time.

[stuntcat]

264. If they're gonna do it loud they should thank him for the 40,000 humans who'll starve to death today

because that's how many people die of starvation every 24 hours, FORTY THOUSAND, many of them children.

I try not to think bad of religious people, but the pushier they are the more I think of all the reasons there can't possibly be a benevolent "God", especially one who gives a shit about their worship.

[lindysalsagal]

382. "Thank you god, for choosing someone else to starve to death today. "

If they really believed it all, they'd save that money and donated it to a food pantry.

[PassingFair]

396. Silly you! They're not beloved of god.....They're not the BLESSED ones!

Bunch of people sitting around patting themselves on the back about how blessed they are.
They must be SO GOOD!!

And they're THANKFUL, so you know they deserve THEIR bounty!

Like the people who survive tornados thanking god for their deliverance.
Too bad Jesus hated their next door neighbors! They were obviously not protected by
god.

[WCGreen]

272. If I was in there I would have went up to buy an hot chocolate and as I put the

cup to my mouth I would toast here's one for good old Beelzebub.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

280. lololol

[Jamaal510]

282. Even as a Christian,

I can understand how that can be annoying. I would either just listen to my iPod if I have it on hand, or maybe go outside.

[Tikki]

283. Maybe, if you leaned over toward their table and said "Can you ask your kids to quiet down?"

Last edited Thu Jul 11, 2013, 11:38 PM - Edit history (1)

That should shock them back into reality as they try to figure out what you mean by what you said.



Tikki

[classof56]

286. Back in my youth, when I attended a fundie evangelical Bible college,

we the students would occasionally eat out (more affordable in those days). After we'd placed our orders, we'd do the "last one to raise your hand" method to determine who would be the designated pray-er. I recall one pizza parlor where we each ordered a slice. While the designated pray-er (a guy) was doing his thing, a long and heart-felt prayer of thanks (out loud), all our heads were bowed, when, before he finished, the waitress arrived and asked loudly, "Okay, who ordered the pepperoni?" Guess you had to be there to find it as humorous as I did, and even now, decades later, the memory gives me a chuckle.

My praying in restaurant days are long behind me, as is most of what I learned in Bible college, but I really don't have a problem with people giving thanks before their restaurant meals. I'm now pretty well convinced no one's listening, except for fellow diners, of course, but if it makes those who pray feel better about themselves, I say let 'em go for it. As others have pointed out, far better than one-sided cell phone conversations and screaming children.

Just MHO.

[Hekate]

292. bigot

[Decoy of Fenris]

293. "And lo, I sayeth unto you..."

[BainsBane]

302. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone do that

Silent prayer, yes.

[Arugula Latte]

325. I used to work for a fundie boss in a small office and we'd go out to eat occasionally

He would always say grace and we were all expected to join in. I'd just sit there, not bow my head, and I'd always catch eyes with my fellow godless heathen who was doing the same thing. We'd try not to burst out laughing at the ridiculousness of the situation.

This was in the liberal Bay Area, too. Public praying in restaurants does definitely go on in many places.

[BainsBane]

326. That's bad

because as your boss, his use of religion was coercive. You could hardly object.

Frankly, I don't care whether people pray or not in Starbucks. I'm more concerned about their allowing guns in the store. Someone praying at another table doesn't hurt me. A gun can.

[Arugula Latte]

351. Yeah, I stayed at that job two years and got out of there.

One time I used "Oh my god!" as an exclamation of surprise at something (it was something trivial -- can't remember what it was). A couple hours later he sent out a memo to the office telling everybody to refrain from using that phrase because it was inappropriate!

[BainsBane]

357. Oh, Lord

I can understand why you left.

[penultimate]

402. I recently had a similar experience with coworkers...

I went to lunch with a couple of my coworkers, in which we met with some other people they knew (non-coworkers). The food came and they did the whole saying grace thing. I felt very awkward, because that's the first time I've ever had that happen. I've worked with a lot of religious people in the past too, but they never led a prayer before eating. I didn't really mind, but it sure was awkward for me.

[Nevernose]

329. I saw it regularly when I lived in East Texas

But, that's the South for you. I've actually seen it a few times here in Las Vegas, but nowhere near the regularity.

I can think of at least once the family made a big production of it, standing and holding hands in a circle, the father not looking around the restaurant to get people's attention, and practically shouting a redneck-i-fied King James-ish prayer.

[Skip Intro]

305. Good for them! n/t

[ag_dude]

310. So you want a Facebook "vomit button" too?

[tblue37]

312. Matthew 6:5 warns against public shows like that:

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

[Turbineguy]

314. There are a few restaurants

where praying before eating is a reasonable and perhaps even wise thiung to do....

[Nevernose]

319. What's the point in praying out loud to begin with?

Ever? At all?

God can monitor everything in the universe, throughout all space and time, but can't hear you pray in your head? God doesn't know your thoughts?

[Buns_of_Fire]

328. I hear people pray at my local truck stop diner all the time.

Usually, it's along the lines of "Please, God, don't let this kill me. Amen." (Short, sweet, and to the point.)

Then, I'll look down at what's in front of me and also say "Amen."

It's worked so far...

[Pretzel_Warrior]

330. This would be an awesome prayer to say ridiculously loud in a restaurant

[Arugula Latte]

352. Bwa ha ha! DeNiro's face at 1:25!

[DesertFlower]

331. i agree. nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

333. " Whoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven" -

Mathew 10:33

A great deal of what Fundamentalist do is not driven by either a desire to show off or a desire to witness - but is driven by plain simple guilt. Many if not most Fundamentalist who inappropriately display their religion are doing so because they would feel very guilty if they did not. They would feel that they failed a test of demonstrating that they truly, truly believe

Frank Schaeffer actually talks about that praying in restaurant head trip in one of his Calvin Becker novels - A semi-autobiographical trilogy about growing up the son of a famous Fundamentalist Protestant theologian.

Let me add as a disclaimer that this is not the only reason why people might pray before a meal in a restaurant - but it is one of the most common reasons. People do all kinds of things for all kinds of different reasons. One can never assume anyone else's motives - but when I came across the story not long ago in one of Rank Schaeffer's novel's and he explained it that way - it brought back memories of my own.

[dembotoz]

334. my sister in law pulls this stuff--horrifies my kids drives them away from whatever she is trying to

do

counter productive

[bigwillq]

338. Ah, not sure this would bother me much.

They may get a stare from me but, in the end, it really doesn't affect my life too much.

[pinboy3niner]

342. We shall pray for you

[TheManInTheMac]

343. Well, there's one thing you can do about it.

Quit going to Starbucks.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

348. Starbucks is my church

don't fuck with my religion, man!

[kelliekat44]

347. Ahhhh...the things people hate. nt

[notadmblnd]

353. That's when you take the opportunity and show off your Christian knowlege by reciting Matt 6:6

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

[Nevernose]

366. Preferably really loud

Holding hands with your family and glaring at the "prayer" table.

As it saith in GOD'S book of Matthew, the SIXTH verse of the SIXTH chapter...I say it again: the HOLY BIBLE! ... When thou prayest! I say PRAYEST! Enter into thy closet... HALLELUJAH!!! Enter into the closet ... And... When thou hast SHUT THE DOOR! Shut the door, lord, shut the door! When thou hast SHUT THE DOOR! AMEN! Shut the door Pray to thy FATHER! In secret in secret. SECRET!!!.

You get the idea.

[bravenak]

356. I never notice anymore.

They'd have to call my name cause I'm always on my iPad. When I do notice I try to keep a neutral expression. Unless they try to include me, then I tell them I pray to the old gods. Somebody usually gets it.

[jazzimov]

358. didn't Jesus say something about

going into a closet to pray? so as not to appear to be a hypocrite, or something like that?

Oh, yeah - Matthew 6:6;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Which referred back to Matthew 6:5

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Actually, I really like this guy's books - as long as you take them in context.

[winter is coming]

364. I find it very disturbing.

It makes me wonder if they know something about the kitchen that I don't.

[HipChick]

365. As long as they are not at my table..

It would annoy the hell out of me..

[Captain Stern]

367. I don't hate it. It doesn't even annoy me. To each his own.

Unless they start pulling out poisonous snakes....that I have a problem with. I hate when that happens.

[Mariana]

368. Fortunately, pets are generally prohibited in restaurants.

And I don't think poisonous snakes qualify as service animals.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

378. eh... as long as the pet is clean

and not climbing on the prep/cooking/eating surfaces it is ok with me. when in Austria we met a nice French couple in a restaurant and they were traveling with their dog. he was quietly sitting under the table... no problem!

sP

[Mariana]

384. Not venomous snakes, though.

One night years ago, while working my shift sitting at the cash register at a gas station, I babysat my friend's (large) boa constrictor while he cleaned out the snake's cage. The snake spent most of the shift draped across my shoulders or curled up in my lap. The customers' reactions to me sitting there with that (large) snake made that the most fun shift I ever worked at that place.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

388. i had a beautiful red tail boa

in college... used to cart him around everywhere. he was a great college pet... quiet, clean, very easy to care for and quite the conversation starter! i never carried him to class, though... figured that would be an unfair distraction.

sP

[naaman fletcher]

369. me too nt.

[donheld]

370. Jesus, apparently, did too.

[steve2470]

371. What honks me off much more than that, is fools talking very loudly in a quiet movie theater

I've almost stood up to confront them. I'm glad I didn't, here in Florida they would have "stood their ground".

[Mariana]

376. I want to know when people decided that it's acceptable

to talk loudly in a library, of all places. Good grief.

I've had to stop going to movies because they turn the volume up so loud that it's painful to me. I took my daughter to a movie last week (the first time I've gone to one in years) for her birthday, and I thought I was being smart - I stopped at the drugstore on the way and bought some earplugs to attenuate the sound. But even with my earplugs in place, it was too way loud.

My mom told me that she once got kicked out of a movie theater for talking when she was a teenager. I wish they still did that.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

379. yes yes and YES!

civility is gone... and the decibel level in theaters is approaching the pain threshold very quickly... watching at home is cheaper... and more comfortable in almost all cases. i miss the quiet of the library, though. now it is all people typing on computers and murmuring in the corner (if not plain talking).

sP

[Mariana]

383. Typing and murmuring in the libe is OK with me.

I don't expect absolute silence, except in the area set aside for that (my local library has such an area). I do expect quietness. Talking at a volume level more appropriate for outside on the street is not cool.

And back to the OP, I'm not bothered if I see or even hear people pray over their food in a restaurant. It's only annoying if it's generally quiet in the place, and they are praying loudly to make sure everyone can hear them doing it. Then it's disruptive and obnoxious.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

387. indeed... n/t

[flvegan]

375. LOL! Don't even know where to begin with this, but

it was good for the comedy gold I expected. On both sides of it.

[Fearless]

380. Regardless of how you feel about this topic

I must say I had a very big eye roll moment when people start quoting a book's verses as evidence of whether or not one should pray in public. And I say I book because the OP states they are an agnostic and clearly then do not see the Bible as a anything but a human creation. Thus, it's an absurd suggestion that one can use religious texts as evidence to prove the acceptability of public prayer to an agnostic.

Personally, as an atheist, I think the whole thing is silly. If someone wants to chant loudly or quietly in public it's not going to bother me one bit. If someone needs to believe in an invisible man in the sky to be a moral and good person, so be it. The world will be a better place, with fewer assholes, despite the fact that you might as well be praying to the tooth fairy. There are hundreds of millions of prayers of starving people in the world today. None or marginally few actually attain the quality of life they deserve. Why should their prayers go unanswered? Either God is a mercilessly indifferent asshole, doesn't exist, or has some "divine plan" that we could never understand that makes it acceptable for the hungry to get sick and die without recourse. I mean, it's pretty obvious the answer.

[Coyotl]

385. What a great trolling this is. LOL.

I hate it when people fart out loud

[Javaman]

386. "get off my lawn!"

I'm a constitutional atheist.

Which means, although I don't believe in a god, I don't discourage others to believe because freedom of religion is guaranteed in the Constitution.

And, personally speaking, when I see people praying in public, I view it as a sort of performance art.

If they are imposing their belief system upon me, then that is different, however, in this case whether or not they believe that openly praying in public is viewed by them as part of their mission to "convert" people that is their opinion. Plenty of people openly pray in public, good for them, if they honestly believe it helps them. It's not for me to say.

Conversely, they might think you odd for not praying openly in public.

If they want to pray, let them pray. Or are you just angry that you will never get back that 15 whole seconds that you lost and had "interrupted" your morning coffee and newspaper reading?

Let me ask you, were they quiet afterward? Since you made no comment in regards to how they yakked on and on about this or that after their praying, I'm going to assume that they were quiet.

But regardless, here is a simple solution that will fix everything for you: Don't pay attention, and voila! problems solved.

[bobclark86]

391. He, Pretzel...

I think you need a chill pill. Since you are making assumptions about the people, I'll make one, too. Maybe they just wanted to hear each other? Starbucks ain't exactly conducive to listening most of the time. Ocam's Razor, my friend.

We get it. You don't love your god. We know you like to belittle people who believe differently than you (talk about "magic powers of your God" and all). They didn't make you pray with them, and they didn't give you shit for not praying with them.

Chill, dude. You'll live longer.

Yours truly, an athiest who doesn't give two flying monkey asshats what people do in Starbucks, and has lower blood pressure for it.

[IrishAyes]

403. Jesus said not to pray on street corners.

Same difference.

As a Catholic, I enjoy a very brief crossing of myself before meals but that doesn't disturb anyone's peace and most likely no one even notices. Which is as it should be. And you're absolutely right - calling attention to yourself in public is NOT 'witnessing' - it's bragging on yourself.

[ejpoeta]

404. perhaps it was for your benefit not theirs at that point. i don't know. i personally believe

such things should be private. if i pray to god, it isn't going to be in a crowd or in public.... it is going to be one on one. faith is a private thing imo. and should be kept to oneself. I understand that not everyone believes as I do and that's ok. But if they were as loud as you state, then I have to believe that it is more so people see them doing it than for the benefit of doing it.