I see NO dirt or grass stains on Trayvon's pants/knees in the 'dead body' photo Gawker released

[Tx4obama]

There's NO way that Trayvon could have been on top of Zimmerman straddling him in wet grass and end up with clean pants with no stains or dirt on the knees.

I do not remember this fact being stated in Court !!!

WARING! CAUTION CAUTION CAUTION - photo here: http://gawker.com/this-courtesy-of-msnbc-is-trayvon-martins-dead-body-753370712

[JustAnotherGen]

1. That poor kid

I really hope Zimmerman gets something.

[Warpy]

2. I still think it's far more likely that a coward/bully like Zimmerman

had drawn his gun as he exited his car. Martin never straddled him and there was never a fight.

[madokie]

3. I agree with you on this

The child had no chance that night. The bully was out to get him from the get go
Yes, child. I went there

[Fawke Em]

107. 17 is a child.

Fuck, so is 19. I don't care that he's "legal."

I have a 14 year old son. He's extremely bright and witty, but he's still a baby.

P.S. A perfect example of this is our 2-year-old hound "puppy." He's technically an adult dog, but he's the baby of the household and is fully aware of it. He's still the puppy. He and my son, in dog years, are both 14, but my Danny Boy is still more two than 14.

[bushisanidiot]

20. I agree, gun had to be drawn for trayvon to scream like that.

the fact that a couple people saw a struggle had to be due to trayvon trying to get away from the gun to save his life.
or he may have already been shot when zimmerman got on top of him to search him for a possible weapon.. hoping
to find something to justify using deadly force.

[Warpy]

35. That's true.

Martin was the one whose jacket was wet on the back with traces of grass. Zimmerman's was not.

Damn, I hope the jury is thinking the same way we are.

[yardwork]

33. Yes. I am certain that Zimmerman had already drawn his gun

[hack89]

4. The police reported that the back of Z's coat was wet and covered with grass.

that was stated in Court.

[Tx4obama]

7. That would be easy to explain...

Zimmerman could have grabbed Trayvon, then Trayvon could have pushed Zimmerman down onto his back.

Or when Zimmerman shot Trayvon standing up Trayvon could have fell forward knocking Zimmerman down onto his back.

That does not equate to Trayvon being on top straddling Zimmerman.

[hack89]

13. When you have eye witness accounts of TM on top

then TM being on top has to be considered. Especially when the witness is a prosecution witness.

[Tx4obama]

14. Well that issue is flawed too...

Because one witness said the person on top had the one on the bottom in a MMA hold.

It is Zimmerman that went to MMA training three times a week.

Therefore common sense tells ya that Zimmerman was on top.

[hack89]

16. Yet that witness' physical description of the person on top exactly matched TM

so common sense tell ya that TM was on top.

[Tx4obama]

17. It was very DARK out there. One witness said it was TOO dark to tell who was on top. n/t

[hack89]

19. Yet not dark enough to distinguish MMA moves from a regular ass kicking? OK. nt

[Just Saying]

53. I think it's likely the witness was an MMA fan

So he used that analogy. His testimony sounded like he didn't see as much as he claimed and one thing a lot of witnesses said was that it was very, very dark back there.

That being said, I still think its possible Trayvon was on top at some point during the altercation, but that doesn't prove it was self-defense to me. I could easily believe Trayvon got out from under Z (as another witness said) and was trying to get away when he was shot.

[bushisanidiot]

56. Zimmermann was the one with mma training

And zimmermann was the bigger one of the two. Trayvon was only 4 inches taller but 50 lbs LIGHTER!

[Tx4obama]

18. What common sense tells us is that since Trayvon's pants/knees are clean he could NOT

... he could NOT have been straddling Zimmerman in WET GRASS.

[bushisanidiot]

34. THOSE STAINS WERE NOT ON HIM IN THE PHOTO WHERE HE IS ACTUALLY WEARING THEM

and that pair of pants don't even look like the skinny jeans trayvon was wearing in the msnbc pic

[hack89]

37. They are the official police investigation pictures.

they were entered into evidence by the defense with no challenge from the prosecution.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

57. ARE THEY, REALLY? Have you found a LEGITIMATE SOURCE to back this up??

Or is it only on racist, right-wing sites? Delete this claim if you can't prove it!!

[bushisanidiot]

61. How did official police pics of evidence get out to the public? I call bs.

Trayvon clearly had skinny jeans on with NO grass stains. The pic of him ACTUALLY wearing them contradicts your "evidence" which shows regular straight leg pants.

[hack89]

68. All the evidence is public - just spend some time on Google

it is not hard to find.

[wercal]

93. These aren't official police photos

These are photos that the Z defense team took, when they were allowed to view the evidence. They put these photos into evidence themselves.

And if you look at any of the videos of him in the 7-11, they are not skinny jeans.

This was discussed on DU months ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022900751

[DeschutesRiver]

36. That report says Trayvon was found dead face down in the grass by the first cop

on the scene.

Did he just fall to his knees first when shot? Because if he fell straight to the ground, without falling to his knees first, I would think his face would be injured in some way.

I don't get how these two went from fighting with Trayvon on top to Zimmerman shooting him and having Trayvon end up face down in the grass.

[hack89]

38. I don't know what happened - I wasn't there

I was just pointing out to the OP that there were stains on TM's pants. Those stains would support Z's story. Doesn't mean that they prove Z's story but that they potentially support it.

[DeschutesRiver]

48. I didn't think you were there. I wondered if you had heard anything during the trial as

I may have missed something. Like how did Zimmerman explain the fact that this kid ended up face down?

If someone is on top of me and I shoot them, they fall backward or forward. Since the cop found him face down, the kid fell forward. That would mean forward on to Zimmerman, who claimed he was on his back underneath the kid.

I assume he shoved the kid off him after he shot him, but can't see how that would land the kid face down on the ground as the cop found him. He should have been face up, so face down dead is inconsistent with having straddled Zimmerman, unless I missed the defenses explanation on that.

Found dead face down with light stains near/on knees is consistent with being shot while standing and then first falling to knees, then flat out as you die.

Thought you might have heard an explanation that I missed, because if not, then I did not realize that it was this clear cut regarding the falseness of Zimmrmans account.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

50. Nice racist, right-wing site ya linked there.

Lookie what they have on the front page:






http://www.ironicsurrealism.com/

[hack89]

51. Thanks - didn't notice the site. I will remove it.

I just googled "Trayvon Martin pants evidence grass stains"

[pnwmom]

63. Zimmerman says it was so dark he couldn't see Trayvon till Trayvon jumped out at him.

And Trayvon was right there.

So how did these so-called witnesses see anything from a distance?

[hack89]

70. Ask the prosecution - they choose to put them on the stand

so obviously they have some credibility in the prosecution's eyes.

[pnwmom]

74. Didn't the defense also call supposed eye-witnesses? But whoever called them,

they all contradict Zimmerman's story that it was too dark for him to see Trayvon till Trayvon was right in front of him.

[hack89]

77. It was a prosecution witness that testified that TM was on top

It was a prosecution witness that testified that Z was yelling for help.

[pnwmom]

99. Yeah, and it was Zimmerman who testified that it was too dark to see.

[hack89]

100. So we have conflicting testimony and uncertainty on what happened

which is what you would expect when no one actually saw the fight start or the actual shooting.

I don't envy the jury trying to unsort this mess.

[pnwmom]

101. I don't envy the jury either. Too bad the police pre-decided the case,

so they didn't bother to collect the evidence that would have made the job a lot easier.

[Voice for Peace]

103. I DO envy the jury.

I would LOVE to have a voice in this decision.

[frylock]

10. what does that have to do with the absence of stains on TM's pants?

[hack89]

11. Evidence has to be taken in its totality

eye witness accounts, expert testimony, forensic evidence. There will always be questions, gaps and inconsistencies - that is why you cannot.look at a single aspect as the OP does and hold it up as some sort of smoking gun.

[bushisanidiot]

64. None of zimmermans dna was on trayvon

No bruises, cuts or scrapes were found on trayvons hands, so he couldn't have been in a fight.
AND NO GRASS STAINS OR ANY STAINS AT ALL ON TRAYVONS SKINNY JEANS.

[hack89]

72. Yet prosecution witnesses describe a fight. nt

[bushisanidiot]

80. Trayvon was heard screaming as he was trying to get away.

I am sure there was contact, but i am not buying that it was a fight.
The physical evidence disputes the "fight" scenario, regardless of what witnesses think they thought they saw over a year ago.

[hack89]

82. Take it up with the guy who testified about what he actually saw

as opposed to reading on the internet.

[MjolnirTime]

39. you picked the wrong side, dude. shameful.

[hack89]

40. Pointing out facts is not picking a side

I have consistently said Zimmerman should go to jail. That doesn't change the fact that there is a lack of clear evidence in this case.

[Rex]

42. According to you and in your opinion their is lack of clear evidence in this case.

A lot of other people see plenty of evidence.

[hack89]

44. The legal bar for acquital is "reasonable doubt"

when you have prosecution witnesses supporting Z's case then there is plenty of reasonable doubt.

The lack of eyewitnesses meant that this was going to be a difficult case to prove without a reasonable doubt.

[pkdu]

79. You are missing a very key word....."BEYOND". nt

[hack89]

81. Beyond a reasonable doubt applies to the prosecution

which means reasonable doubt = acquittal.

[pkdu]

95. This is way beyond any reasonable doubt.

Z lived there 4 years. There 3 streets in that area...only 3. He said he left the vehicle to try and find a street sign...He LIED ( and not for the first time in court)

[hack89]

96. We will find out soon enough. nt

[hack89]

91. I guess we will find out in a couple of days. nt

[bushisanidiot]

88. There is no physical evidence to prove trayvon did what zimmerman claims.

The evidence is on the side of the victim..

His injury free hands tell the whole story.

And as a bonus: No DNA of the murderer was found on the child's body.

Case closed.

[hack89]

92. We will find out shortly. nt

[pnwmom]

62. So? He could have fallen down. Maybe Trayvon shoved him out of the way and he slipped.

But there's no way, looking at Trayvon, that that boy had just been involved in a fight to the death. There's no way those pristine pants were on a young man who'd just been holding another man down to the ground in a violent fight.

[hack89]

69. That is not the only pictures of his pants

the defense entered into evidence police pictures of TM's pants that showed stains at the knees.

[pnwmom]

71. The "stains" must have been awfully minor, based on this photo.

And I've read that they were grass stains, which wouldn't be relevant anyway. Zimmerman himself says he was being bashed on concrete, not grass.

[hack89]

78. It will be interesting to see how the jury sees it.

do you think they will deliberate very long?

[pnwmom]

98. I'm guessing a couple days. It will be interesting. n/t

[SaveOurDemocracy]

84. BACK IT UP! ...and NOT with a link to a RACIST SITE, like before.

[hack89]

90. Here are 84 evidence pictures from the trial. (Warning graphic pictures)

http://www.hlntv.com/slideshow/2013/06/03/trayvon-martin-crime-scene-evidence-photos-george-zimmerman

I am surprised you were not aware that all the evidence was released by the judge.

[Rex]

5. Ya the gun humpers are shitting all over themselves with anger

that the picture was shown. They care nothing about life and only about their right to murder people in cold blood imo.

[geek_sabre]

6. He also doesn't have pockets. Due to the flash, you can't really see much of anything on his pants

The defense in their close did mention grass stains on the knees, and no one objected, so (I assumed) it must be in evidence.

[pnwmom]

25. But he wasn't on the grass. He was getting his head bashed in on concrete, supposedly. n/t

[Myrina]

58. ... And "rolling in the grass" according to

... that one female witness who called 911 but was too much of a chickenshit to look out her window, or let her husband look out the window and give a solid account of what was happening ...

[pnwmom]

60. . . . And it was so dark outside that Zimmerman says he couldn't see Trayvon

till Trayvon jumped out at him.

This story smells to high heaven.

[Myrina]

65. ... from the nonexistent bushes. Yep, it stinks.

i feel so bad for Martin's family.

[Voice for Peace]

104. in the re-enactment he describes lying on grass w/body, at edge of concrete sidewalk

not to defend him.. the re-enactment seems
very much like a story he had practiced and been
advised about.

[skeewee08]

8. I believe the PA mention this yesterday in his closing.

[DesertFlower]

9. interesting. could zimmerman have

faked his injuries by lying in the grass and lightly hitting his head on the concrete? he could have also hit himself in the nose so he could claim self defense.

[polly7]

12. Or, a terrified Trayvon could have gotten in one good shot hoping to

stop whatever Zimmerman was going to do. I hope he did.

[bushisanidiot]

15. and "mma style 'ground and pound'" lie goes out the window! NO BLOOD ON HIS HANDS!

Last edited Fri Jul 12, 2013, 06:14 PM - Edit history (1)

no cuts, scrapes or bruises on trayvon's hands, either.

zimmerman had someone else beat him up after the fact.
He likely searched zimmerman's dead body, found NO WEAPON
and had to think up a plan quick to cover his tracks.

the EVIDENCE DOES NOT ADD UP THAT TRAYVON BEAT ZIMMERMAN UP!

[factsarenotfair]

21. If I were on the jury, I would ask to see the pants up close.

I haven't watched much of the trial, so I don't have any idea if or how the pants were shown, but they seem key to me.

[hack89]

41. Pictures of his pants were entered into evidence by the defense

because they showed stains on the knees.

[Rex]

43. I wonder why Zimmerman roled TM over after he killed him?

So many questions...

[hack89]

46. Unfortunately "many questions" equates to "reasonable doubt" in court.

if the jurors have a lot of unanswered questions then the prosecution is in trouble.

[Just Saying]

54. Or it leads to the jury

Flat out disregarding Zimmerman's account of events in which case he'll be found guilty.

[hack89]

67. True. nt

[factsarenotfair]

47. I'd want to see the actual pants.

You never know what you'll see when you look closely.

[hack89]

49. Why wouldn't police evidence pictures be adequate? nt

[factsarenotfair]

86. Well, I like to figure things out for myself--especially important things.

I guess I'm just obsessive-compulsive.

[pnwmom]

24. That's exactly what I just wondered about. How could they not discuss that in Court??? n/t

[HockeyMom]

26. Zimmerman didn't either

on the back of his jacket. Makes me think neither were on the grass at all.

[DesMoinesDem]

27. There is clearly a wet spot on his left knee.

The right knee may or may not have a dark spot.

[Tx4obama]

28. Even IF his knees were dirty all it means is that both of them were rolling around on the ground

Most fights I've seen the two folks are all over the place during a struggle.

[mfcorey1]

31. I AGREE.

[DesMoinesDem]

32. I don't know what happened so I'm not going to comment about that.

All I'm saying is that I believe the picture shows that his left knee is wet, and possibly his right knee also.

[Just Saying]

55. He was found facedown on the grass

So I'm not sure the grass stains prove anything anyway.

[DeschutesRiver]

29. That was hard to see.

Unless the jury is stacked with low IQ people, this photo alone puts lie to Zimmermans. Look at the color of those slacks, so light.

But no stains, no blood, no signs of scuffle, nothing matching anything Zimmerman said. Just a very clean cut normal American kid whose heart was stopped by a bullet from an overzealous unstable cop wanna be. Makes me sick thinking of Zimmerman continually finding things to giggle about, as I see the aftermath of what he did to a kid walking home to his dad/fiance's house.

That dirty smug bastard. If there is any intelligence present in this jury, Zimmerman will end up in prison rather than walking the streets, looking for his next victim.

ETA: I see the pants in a more close up photo further up thread, with light brown discoloration but not just at the knees but also a bit above and below the knees in some spots. The report said the officer said when he arrived, the kid was face down in the grass. Did he fall to his knees then flat out on the ground face down after he was shot? Because the kind of vigorous scuffle Zimmerman described wouldn't leave so little in the way of dirt on light colored pants.

If my kid came home describing a fight in Zimmermans terms, but looked so unscathed, I would assume he was making it up.

[Sissyk]

30. Unfortunately that is not true.

Photos of the pants were put in evidence with stains on the knees. Could be grass stains.

All the evidence is in. We have to trust the jury now that they will understand a child was killed. A young, promising, and wonderful young man was taken away from his family and friends. Hopefully, the jury will want to see Zimmerman pay for that.

[Lex]

45. That picture is just so fucking sad. Zimmerman is a cold blooded killer of a kid.

Period. The End. The jury can have whatever verdict it wants, but it doesn't change the truth.

[Deep13]

52. Yeah, I don't really believe Z's story...

...especially since he never took the stand to give one.

[Just Saying]

59. Does anyone know what was on Trayvon's button?

I missed it during the trial. He looks so young in this picture.

Funny that the very people who screamed bias when the media showed young pictures of Trayvon are now screaming about this as biased. Well, there he is exactly on the night he was killed and guess what? He looks like a kid because he was a damn kid!

[Tx4obama]

97. Photo with the button

More photos here: http://www.hlntv.com/slideshow/2013/06/03/trayvon-martin-crime-scene-evidence-photos-george-zimmerman

[Just Saying]

102. Thank you!

I guess it's a memorial button for a cousin or something. That's just a little more sad.

[wercal]

66. Photos of grass stained pants were submitted into evidence by the defense.

Here's a link:

http://www.ironicsurrealism.com/2013/07/10/photos-grass-stains-on-the-knees-of-trayvon-martins-pants/

I know nothing about this website; butm they've got good photos of the pants.

[bushisanidiot]

73. Thats a bullshit photo from a right wing site

Those are not the skinny jeans that trayvon is clearly wearing in the photo of him laying in the grass.

[wercal]

83. Well you don't have to believe it

...but it was put into evidence...presumably there was a chain of custody with the police.

Here's a video of him at the 7-11...

I don't think those are skinny jeans.

Here they are again at dailykos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/09/1214336/-DNA-Report-does-NOT-support-Zimmerman-s-claim-that-Trayvon-Martin-caused-his-injuries#

[wercal]

89. Don't want to leave you out

The pants were discussed on DU in May.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022900751

Some right wing site called 'talkleft'

[SaveOurDemocracy]

76. It's a RACIST RIGHT-WING SITE!!! THAT is the ONLY site with these pics,...

...EXCEPT for DU now, thanks to idiots posting them here.

FIND A LEGITIMATE SOURCE, OR I CALL BULLSHIT!

[wercal]

85. Dailykos has them

Just scroll down and you'll find them.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/09/1214336/-DNA-Report-does-NOT-support-Zimmerman-s-claim-that-Trayvon-Martin-caused-his-injuries#

I guess I'm the 'idiot', huh?

[wercal]

87. Oops, I'm late to the party.

Some other 'idiot' posted this photo back in may. Didn't use cap lock, though...so its probably not true.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022900751

[displacedtexan]

75. No grass stains, not wet spots, no dirt on Back of GZ's jacket?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/09/1214336/-DNA-Report-does-NOT-support-Zimmerman-s-claim-that-Trayvon-Martin-caused-his-injuries#

The Jury will see Trayvon Martin's Autopsy Report that describes, in intricate detail, the physical appearance of Trayvon Martin as he appeared after Zimmerman killed him. The Jury will see that the Autopsy report shows Trayvon had "a 1/4" x 1/8" small abrasion on the left fourth finger." The Jury will also see that the Autopsy does not mention any: blood, dirt, defensive wounds or offensive wounds on Trayvon Martin's knuckles, palms, wrists, fingers or thumbs -- which dispels Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon punched him in the nose 25-30 times, covered his nose and mouth while at the same slamming his head into the sidewalk over a dozen times.
The Jury will see Police pictures of George Zimmerman's hands approximately 45 minutes after he killed Trayvon which do not show any defensive wounds on his, dirt or blood on Zimmerman's: knuckles, palms, wrists, thumbs or fingers or fingernails.

The Jury will also see police pictures of the back-side of Zimmerman which does not show any: blood, dirt, mud, or grass stains on the back of Zimmerman's jacket or blue jeans.

All I can do is hang my head in shame for these senseless acts of violence against kids guilty of assuming they're equal under the law. /sarcasm

[RockaFowler]

94. That is the saddest picture I have seen in a while

How can anyone say he was this big guy. He looks like a tall gangly kid. And yes he looks like a kid.

[tnlefty]

109. I have 3 sons and all of them were taller and heavier at 17 than Trayvon...

the youngest was wide shouldered, and taller and heavier at 16, but his face still looked young, younger than Trayvon's. The older two had the taller, gangly look, but weighed more than Trayvon, and 17 yr. olds, talk on cellphones, and if they don't want the parents to hear it they go outside, or text quietly, or something, and how many 17 yr. olds haven't smoked pot at some point, really???

Jeebus, I feel so bad for Trayvon's parents.

[kimbutgar]

105. I am tearing up looking at this picture

This child was murdered. I have seen people who have been in bad fights. Zimmerman was the aggressor plan and simple. Where's the blood on Treyvon?He would have it all over him if he beat up Zimmerman. . This kid was minding his own business when Zimmerman confronted him. His only offense was being a black youth. And Zimmerman who'd just love to use that shinny gun in his pocket.

I hope Zimmerman fries in jail and hell and if there are any riots it will be the racist whites that are angry they couldn't go after their Obama surrogate.

Treyvon = Obama in (RWW) right wing world. In their sick twisted minds they are projecting Treyvon on the president. And we all know what happened to Treyvon.

That's my take after listening to 5 minutes of RWW.

[Lex]

106. Same reaction here. It's clear

that he was just a skinny kid. He wasn't looking for a fight. One came to him. One he had no chance of winning.

[JimDandy]

108. That is a SKINNY kid!

If he looks that skinny in clothes imagine what he looked in just skivvies.