Here's why the Snowden imbroglio makes no sense:

[riqster]

Last edited Sat Jul 13, 2013, 09:27 PM - Edit history (1)

http://bluntandcranky.wordpress.com/

Snips:

"P.P.S. This has nothing to do with the debate over domestic NSA surveillance and the like. That leftover from the Bushies needs ripped out by the roots, and that soon."

"Here’s how crazy and delusional people have gotten: a contractor admits having taken a job with the NSA in order to steal national security information (which is a crime);

He flees to Communist China, famous for slaughtering and imprisoning political dissidents because he thinks they are a more free and open society than America;

He then flees to Russia, which is run by the former head of the KGB because he thinks that Putin will be more respectful of human rights than America or Communist China;

And is now planning to flee to Venezuela, a country with a human rights record that is almost as bad as those of Russia and Communist China, because he thinks he’ll be “free” there;"

More at the link.

[Enrique]

1. just because one partisan blogger spins it a particular way

doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

[riqster]

3. How then do his actions make sense? nt

[Enrique]

7. the fact that he's not in a U.S. prison

holed away like Bradley Manning where everyone can ignore him for years. Stripped naked every day and held in solitary confinement.

That fact that he has so far avoided that fate explains his actions.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

12. Manning is in a MILITARY prison, NOT part of the US Prison System.

It's part of the US Military. Apples and oranges comparison.

[Enrique]

15. that fact is not related to my point n/t

[Dr Hobbitstein]

36. Yes it is...

Completely relevant. Manning has been in solitary confinement in a MILITARY prison. Not the same as a US prison at all. First off, just signing up for the military, you waive Constitutional rights (some, not all). The military prison system is harsh for even minor offenses. Snowden would be facing a criminal trial under the US Justice system, NOT the UCMJ. They are NOT the same system, "ain't the same fucking ballpark. It ain't the same league. It ain't even the same fucking sport".

[pnwmom]

30. If he had gone public in the US, then he would have more likely ended up

like Daniel Ellsburg, who was released on bail, and who ended up having charges dismissed in the long run -- if all he did was actual whistle-blowing and NOT releasing subsequent documents about US spying on other countries.

Manning was a soldier subject to an entirely different system of military discipline.

[Mojorabbit]

87. That was then when we had some semblance of rule of law.

Now he prob would have ended up like this guy
Jailed Journalist Barrett Brown Faces 105 Years For Reporting on Hacked Private Intelligence Firms
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/11/jailed_journalist_barrett_brown_faces_105

He did the smart thing.

[pnwmom]

88. Brown didn't limit himself to reporting and investigation.

He's also charged with credit card fraud. I'm not feeling very sympathetic.

"Brown faces 17 charges ranging from threatening an FBI agent to credit card fraud for posting a link online to a document that contained stolen credit card data."

[Mojorabbit]

90. Obviously you have not watched the piece nt

[Benton D Struckcheon]

11. They make perfect sense for someone who did a lot more than just blow a whistle.

The more I look at it the more it looks like he is using the NSA Fourth Amendment issue as a cover for a much wider case of espionage against the US. He says (whether it's true or not makes no difference until he's caught and they can question him) he has the names and locations and missions of every CIA agent around the world. I'll just keep saying this: this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Fourth Amendment. It's a clear, open and shut case of spying against the US. He's running so hard because he knows the NSA stuff is nothing, but this other stuff is very much something, and something the US will prosecute him for and that could easily land him in jail for the rest of his life.
He will be chased, he will be caught, and they are going to find out what he knows. This will happen because he's a spy and a traitor, not a whistleblower.
Remember the timing, right before Obama was going to confront Xi about their hacking into US companies? He succeeded in burying that to the huge benefit of the Chinese.
I'm quite sure that wasn't a coincidence. He's not working for the US.

[ucrdem]

28. +1

Nicely put, too.

p.s. another remarkable thing is how the media, alt and MSM, expect people to buy the silly story and get outraged.

[pnwmom]

32. This is how it seems to me, too.

"The more I look at it the more it looks like he is using the NSA Fourth Amendment issue as a cover for a much wider case of espionage against the US."

[flamingdem]

38. When he taunts, and Greenwald taunts about having much more

that's a kind of blackmail.

Also, it's important to find out if he had help to get more data than he'd otherwise have skills to grab. The help could have come from outside or inside, the facts need to come out.

[leveymg]

2. Really nuanced thinking. Sure a lot eludes that blogger.

[think]

4. For clarity's sake it was Hong Kong not mainland China

There is a difference

Wikipedia: American in China

There are more Americans than Britons living in the territory, and 1,100 American companies employ 10% of the Hong Kong workforce; the current head of the Hong Kong General Chamber of Commerce, Eden Woon, is the first American to hold the position in the territory's history. In addition, ships of the United States Navy make from 60 to 80 port visits each year.[3]

Mainland China

According to the Sixth National Population Census conducted in 2010, there are 71,493 Americans residing in Mainland China, the second largest single group of foreign nationals.[4] Americans have been coming to China for job opportunities since 1994.[5] In the late 2000s and early 2010s, a growing number of Americans in their 20s and 30s headed to China for employment, lured by its faster-growing economy and lower jobless rate.[6] Many of them do basic work such as teaching English, a service in demand from Chinese businesspeople and students and a growing number are arriving with skills and experience in computers, finance and other fields.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_in_China

[randome]

6. I can see granting that point. I can see others not granting it, too.

But if Hong Kong is a more pleasant place to live, why didn't Snowden apply for asylum there?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[think]

9. If memory serves me right he was told to get out of dodge

while he still could...

China persuaded Snowden to flee Hong Kong: sources



By James Pomfret and Benjamin Kang Lim

HONG KONG/BEIJING | Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:28am EDT


(Reuters) - China orchestrated U.S. fugitive Edward Snowden's flight from Hong Kong at the weekend to avoid an extradition battle that would have embarrassed both Beijing and Washington, several sources said on Monday.

~Snip~

Chna did not want to offend the United States and was happy for Snowden to leave," the source said. The source however said he was unaware if there was direct contact between any Beijing official and the American fugitive.

A lawyer for Snowden said he was told to flee Hong Kong by a middleman claiming to represent the local government, but who was probably acting on behalf of Beijing.

Lawyer Albert Ho, who is also a Hong Kong legislator critical of China, told reporters he was approached by Snowden several days ago, and that the American had sought assurances from the Hong Kong government about whether he could leave the city if he chose to....

~snip~

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/24/us-usa-security-hongkong-idUSBRE95N07K20130624

[pnwmom]

33. But China has ultimate control and easily had access to Snowden and his computers

while he was there

[grasswire]

44. you know this, how?

What is your experience in the world of international espionage? You speak with total certainty, not opinion. Please spell out your credentials for us. Mmkay?

[pnwmom]

64. Business travelers have found this out the hard way.

It's about how business and government travelers to Russia and China routinely take strong precautions against hacking -- and why.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/11/technology/electronic-security-a-worry-in-an-age-of-digital-espionage.html

What might have once sounded like the behavior of a paranoid is now standard operating procedure for officials at American government agencies, research groups and companies that do business in China and Russia — like Google, the State Department and the Internet security giant McAfee. Digital espionage in these countries, security experts say, is a real and growing threat — whether in pursuit of confidential government information or corporate trade secrets.

“If a company has significant intellectual property that the Chinese and Russians are interested in, and you go over there with mobile devices, your devices will get penetrated,” said Joel F. Brenner, formerly the top counterintelligence official in the office of the director of national intelligence.

SNIP

The chamber did not learn that it — and its member organizations — were the victims of a cybertheft that had lasted for months until the Federal Bureau of Investigation told the group that servers in China were stealing information from four of its Asia policy experts, who frequent China. By the time the chamber secured its network, hackers had pilfered at least six weeks worth of e-mails with its member organizations, which include most of the nation’s largest corporations. Later still, the chamber discovered that its office printer and even a thermostat in one of its corporate apartments were still communicating with an Internet address in China.

The chamber did not disclose how hackers had infiltrated its systems, but its first step after the attack was to bar employees from taking devices with them “to certain countries,” notably China, a spokesman said.

The implication, said Jacob Olcott, a cybersecurity expert at Good Harbor Consulting, was that devices brought into China were hacked. “Everybody knows that if you are doing business in China, in the 21st century, you don’t bring anything with you. That’s ‘Business 101’ — at least it should be.”

[grasswire]

70. but Edward Snowden is not a "business traveler"

He's an expert in hacking and encryption and all the other techniques of electronic spying.

Your supposition is only that. A figment of your imagination.

[pnwmom]

72. You don't think any of those business travelers work for companies that have

experts in encryption who could protect their files?

And yet they still take extreme precautions, including leaving their real laptops at home.

[grasswire]

74. maybe Snowden left his real laptops at home too.

Point: we have NO idea what he has or what's in his mind. Speculation or gossip about his actions, motives, possessions, predictions is just a fool's errand. ANd anyone who speaks with certainty about him and his status is just fluffing.

[arely staircase]

75. he has four NSA laptops with him nt

[grasswire]

78. and how do we know this to be true?

Please proceed.

[arely staircase]

82. Well I read it in the Guardian, so maybe it is bullshit. You have a point.

As he pulled a small black suitcase and carried a selection of laptop bags over his shoulders, no one would have paid much attention to Ed Snowden as he arrived at Hong Kong International Airport. But Snowden was not your average tourist or businessman. In all, he was carrying four computers that enabled him to gain access to some of the US government's most highly-classified secrets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-profile

[pnwmom]

79. We know only what he and Greenwald have told people -- that he was carrying 4 laptops.

But you're right -- they could be lying.

[grasswire]

81. have you ever considered the notion of decoys?

Why would Snowden advertise the location of his collected material? Seems like thumb drives would be infinitely more practical.

[arely staircase]

83. and other Guardian reporters

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-profile

[Douglas Carpenter]

5. he has given up his right to live in a free country so that you and I might have the hope of living

in a free country. Whatever his political views are - I don't care. Few people have sacrificed so much so that others might be free

[railsback]

17. So, what, are we doing Jesus comparisons now?

If so, then he should have stayed here for a public execution to make a point.

[randome]

20. "Let he who is without metadata cast the first stone."

Book of Snowden 4:17.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[railsback]

22. Nice

[treestar]

18. OMG the exaggeration!

Delusional. No, he did not do it so you could be free. Holy shit.

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. if it was not for Snowden's actions- whoever he is, whatever his politics, whatever kind of person

he is, whatever his motives - if it was not for what he has done - no one would be addressing the subject of the Surveillance state now - without addressing the issue of the surveillance state - an ever increasingly powerful and legitimized Intelligence Industrial Complex is not compatible with a free and democratic society. If we were under a Republican President at this time - you and everyone else on this forum would be saying that too.

[treestar]

59. No one would be discussing it?

Good grief!!!!!!!

http://www.nslj.org

http://jnslp.com

http://harvardnsj.org


These are just a few, and at the highest and most advanced levels only!

[Douglas Carpenter]

62. it was not in the common public domain. very few people knew or cared about it

now as a result of Mr Snowden's and Mr. Greenwald's actions - the whole world is watching

[treestar]

63. The public domain discussion

is manipulated and based on misinformation - deliberate, by those with an agenda.

Based on false premises, it is a useless "discussion."

[Douglas Carpenter]

66. the robotic abandonment of principle for the sake of blind partisanship is sad

[treestar]

67. Abandonment of facts, reality and law

in favor of emotional manipulation is better?

My "blind partisanship" is to the rule of law and the relevant issues are the legal issues, based on two hundred years of jurisprudence of our Constitution.

[Douglas Carpenter]

68. If Bush or any Republican was President now - you would be saying something entirely different

anyone who cares about the Constitution at all and the rule of law at all would be rejoicing that finally for the first time since September 11, 2001 there is a public debate about the world of the secretive Intelligence Industrial Complex

[ConservativeDemocrat]

69. Well, *I* wouldn't.

I objected to Bush's position on warrantless wiretapping because, in my opinion, without court oversight, it was entirely unconstitutional. I did not object to the FISA court system set up by Jimmy Carter, which is what President Obama restored, because there are significant checks and balances inside it. People who would never vote for President Obama in a million years have full access to see what is going on.

Had Bush kept Carter's FISA court system, overseen by Bush's political opponents, I wouldn't have objected to that either.

In none of those cases would I approve of someone going off and deliberately acting as a spy, revealing information to damage U.S. national security, as Snowden has.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Douglas Carpenter]

73. The size, scope, political license, level of technology - that exist in this ever increasing and

highly secretive Surveillance State of today is something way beyond anything that the Jimmy Carter Administration ever envisioned. It is not reasonable to deny the incredible danger it represents to the future of a free and democratic society.

The NSA's metastasised intelligence-industrial complex is ripe for abuse

Where oversight and accountability have failed, Snowden's leaks have opened up a vital public debate on our rights and privacy

by Valerie Plame Wilson and Joe Wilson

guardian.co.uk, Sunday 23 June 2013 13.00 BST


Let's be absolutely clear about the news that the NSA collects massive amounts of information on US citizens – from emails, to telephone calls, to videos, under the Prism program and other Fisa court orders: this story has nothing to do with Edward Snowden. As interesting as his flight to Hong Kong might be, the pole-dancing girlfriend, and interviews from undisclosed locations, his fate is just a sideshow to the essential issues of national security versus constitutional guarantees of privacy, which his disclosures have surfaced in sharp relief.

Snowden will be hunted relentlessly and, when finally found, with glee, brought back to the US in handcuffs and severely punished. (If Private Bradley Manning's obscene conditions while incarcerated are any indication, it won't be pleasant for Snowden either, even while awaiting trial.) Snowden has already been the object of scorn and derision from the Washington establishment and mainstream media, but, once again, the focus is misplaced on the transiently shiny object. The relevant issue should be: what exactly is the US government doing in the people's name to "keep us safe" from terrorists?

We are now dealing with a vast intelligence-industrial complex that is largely unaccountable to its citizens. This alarming, unchecked growth of the intelligence sector and the increasingly heavy reliance on subcontractors to carry out core intelligence tasks – now estimated to account for approximately 60% of the intelligence budget – have intensified since the 9/11 attacks and what was, arguably, our regrettable over-reaction to them.

Today, the intelligence sector is so immense that no one person can manage, or even comprehend, its reach. When an operation in the field goes south, who would we prefer to try and correct the damage: a government employee whose loyalty belongs to his country (despite a modest salary), or the subcontractor who wants to ensure that his much fatter paycheck keeps coming? - Valerie Plame Wilson and Joe Wilson

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/23/nsa-intelligence-industrial-complex-abuse

[quinnox]

8. another Obama devotee blogger, yawn

Maybe they should learn the difference between Hong Kong and "communist China" before they start calling others idiots.

[former9thward]

10. A collection of lies from the Smear Machine.

It is lie to say he thought China (I'll leave out the 1950s phrase 'Communist China') was "a more free and open society that America". Link to where he said that or it is a lie. He fled to stay out of America's gulags. Any sane person would have done the same. It is a lie to say he fled to Russia "because he thinks that Putin will be more respectful of human rights than America or Communist China;". Link to where he said that or it is a lie. He fled to Russia because he could more easily apply for asylum in other countries from there. He will be far freer in Venezuela or the other countries that have offered him asylum that in a country where whistleblowers are jailed for life.

[treestar]

19. Nobody in Venezuela is "far freer" than anyone here

And how do you know his motives?

America has no "gulags."

[former9thward]

27. Fail.

I said HE would be far freer in Venezuela than here. I did not say ANYONE. I only know what he has said. The poster I was replying to, who you rushed to defend, made statements about what Snowden thinks of Clhina and Russia. I said to link to them or they are lies. I say the same to you. Link to those statements or they are lies -- and you own them now.

[treestar]

41. How does he know he would?

Subject to their laws, such as they are, and as an alien visitor, not a citizen, they can lock him up or restrict him in any way they please. He certainly won't have access to their state secrets, either. If charged with a crime, his rights would be far more restrictive than this rights while charged with a crime here.

[cantbeserious]

31. What Then Does One Call The Private Industrial Prison System - America's Gulags

Highest incarceration rate in the West.

[treestar]

42. Different Issues

No one is there without going through the trial process. No one is there for crimes not specifically defined and with specifically defined and pronounced sentences.

Whatever problems you can find with it, it is no where near a "gulag."

[cantbeserious]

47. And You Are Sure Of The Reassurances From A Justice Department Unwilling To Prosecute Wall Street

Some of us do not share your "faith" in the "system".

[treestar]

53. How about following the Zimmeran case or other specific cases?

Your generalizations are breathtaking.

A street cannot be prosecuted. You are on cartoon levels of generalization.

[cantbeserious]

55. Great Misdirection - Have A Wonderful Day

eom

[Fumesucker]

49. People get sent to prison every day in the USA without going to trial

The highest incarceration rate on the planet, including Communist China and The Sovie.. err.. I mean Russia.

[treestar]

54. Are you serious?

Plea bargaining is something no defendant has to do. Defendant can always have a trial. In those cases, Defendant figures his chances of getting convicted of something worse are too high. Defendant has the right to counsel, the whole Bill of Rights, existing law and rules of evidence.

People could be sent to the gulag on a whim. Even if fewer people (and most of these comparisons fail to account for those executed which would obviously lower the incarceration rate) are there, the fact you can be put there on a whim is what you are supposed to be against when you talk about civil liberties!

[rhett o rick]

45. Is your point that he would be more free in the good ole USofA? nm

[treestar]

50. Yes. He can answer to those charges according to our system

Has a right to counsel, and counsel can challenge the evidence under the rules of evidence, the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments, and other laws. He has a First Amendment right to open his trap to anyone, and already has one journalist as a partisan lackey.

He has no idea how he'd be treated in Venezuela.

[rhett o rick]

56. You think he would be allowed to be free in the USofA? Your rhetoric didnt answer

the question. By the way, look at the other whistle-blowers that have been imprisoned. This Admin has been more harsh on whistle-blowers that any other in recent history.

[treestar]

61. "Free" does not mean that one never has to answer to criminal charges!

[rhett o rick]

84. Free means "not in a friggin prison." Of course in this "free" country, more people are "not free"

(incarcerated) per capita than any other major nation.

Do you want the Patriot Act repealed?

[treestar]

86. Why do you assume that means something wrong automatically?

Other countries may not be as good at catching their crooks. Other countries might execute people we don't (which is where China's "shortfall" of prisoners comes from).

Why wouldn't I want the "patriot act" repealed? I was against it from its inception. What has it got to do with ordinary criminal cases?

[randome]

51. Accused criminals are ALWAYS more free when granted asylum outside the country.

Roman Polanski was one.

And no, I am not saying that Snowden's crime is comparable to that of a child molester's. But surely you can see that running and hiding is always preferable -from a criminal's point of view- to facing trial.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[pnwmom]

34. Daniel Ellsburg didn't end up in a gulag. He was let out on bail, and charges

were eventually dismissed. Of course, Ellsburg was an actual whistle-blower, not a spy.


(Manning is a member of the service so his situation is not comparable.)

[former9thward]

97. Who is Snowden spying for?

Ellsberg was accused of being a spy and faced 115 years in prison. Charges were dismissed because of misconduct by the government. He is a whistle-blower. You just don't like where he is blowing whistles.

[pnwmom]

103. I don't know who Snowden may be spying for, other than himself, but he has leaked information

about US spying on other countries, and THOSE leaks aren't whistle-blowing -- they're espionage. Our spy agencies were set up BY LAW to spy on other countries.

This is a separate issue from claims he is making about internal US surveillance, which could fall under the definition of whistle-blowing.

If Snowden had done as Ellsberg, and only acted as a whistle-blower (with regard to US surveillance), he might in the end have ended up just like Ellsberg -- with any charges dismissed. However, ever since his focused changed to international spying, the possible consequences have, too. He is no longer merely a whistle-blower; he's functioning as a spy.

[former9thward]

104. Ellsberg got lucky.

Nixon, as usual with his paranoia, went overboard in his prosecution. Nixon's "plumber" unit broke into the files of Ellsberg's psychiatrist. In addition they had a plan cooked up to "incapacitate" Ellsberg at a rally. When all this and more came up in court the judge had no choice but to toss the charges because of government misconduct. Otherwise Ellsberg might still be in prison.

[riqster]

94. Where to start, where to start...

First of all, China is still a Communist country (Russia no longer is). So that is an accurate statement, whether or not you care for the phrasing.

And Snowden has said good things about Putin and Russia in re human rights. Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/13/edward-snowden-anna-politkovskaya

I suggest you go to Human Rights Watch's website and read their reports on China, Russia, and Venezuela. They do not have exemplary records. http://www.hrw.org/

Oh, and HRW are Snowden supporters. So perhaps you'll listen to them when they tell you how bad things are for dissidents there.

[former9thward]

96. Where to start?

You never got to it. You made specific statements in your OP that you claim Snowden said. Link to those statements by Snowden or to say Snowden said thme is a lie. No link to those statements so they are lies.

[riqster]

98. No they are not lies.

I provided one link. And you ignored it. So, why bother providing the rest?

There is none so blind, and all that.

[former9thward]

99. Your link did not have one statement by Snowden.

You claimed Snowden said specific things about Russia and China. Your links have no statements by Snowden about those countries. It was a lie.

[riqster]

101. Then you either did not read them, or

...did not follow the links within the post to read them, or are filtering out what was there.

In any event, such ad hominem attacks as you are throwing at me demonstrate a lack of objectivity, reasonableness, or even a basic degree of human civility.

Some people can't listen. Others don't listen. You can reason with them, if you are willing to put forth the effort.

But people like you, who refuse to listen, are a lost cause and not worth the effort of trying to convince.

Good day.

[The Straight Story]

13. That's ok - The US helps out all those countries in varied ways. So I guess that makes us...what? nt

[think]

16. partners?

[Progressive dog]

39. Realistic nt

[Waiting For Everyman]

14. Talk about making no sense...

This blogger (who doesn't identify anything about him/her self btw) in effect is saying, sure we know Snowden's point is important and valid, but side against that and condemn him anyway because his options in getting away from persecution for it aren't good enough. Well gee, I wonder why his choices are so limited?

[sigmasix]

21. criminals have limited choices for a reason

Snowden has said that he knows the location of every field agent for our intelligence department AND he has shown a disregard for his oath to his country of birth. He has repeatedly declared himself above the law because of his desire to rid the world of evil. He has shown a real desire to communicate all of these secrets to the rest of the world, thus permanantly harming America and risking the lives of our brave Intelligence officials and armed forces personel.
Snowden has commited treason and he has anounced to the world that he wishes to continue sharing American secrets. He is criminal with deep moral malfunctions that has disguised himself as a whistleblower. He isn't a hero and he isn't a voice of liberty- he's a garden-variety narcissist that sees himself as a hero. He doesn't deserve any better treatment expectations than any other accused spy and traitor. If transparancy is the ideal, shouldn't the hero come home for a trial that would prove or disprove his accusations of nazi actions on the part of America? I've said it before; ODS is so toxic that Snowden fans would embrace him as a hero even if he were televised in the act of babie eating: as long as there is some sort of confirmation of the massive matrix-like conspiracy that has replaced reality- all in an organized effort on the part of president Obama to enslave humanity to the dictates of Obama and his evil overlords.

I'm sure there is someplace one could go to receive professional care for severe ODS outbreaks.

[treestar]

46. Disguised himself, exactly

Some people seem to be looking for someone who will do what they think Snowden is doing. But then merely because Ed declares himself to be IT, they jump on, but that doesn't mean Ed is The One. Ed knew the fans of Wikileaks would jump onto his bandwagon, no questions asked, merely because he declared himself a whistleblower. A narcissist who needs some attention can easily fool some of these people.

[Waiting For Everyman]

85. Why bother yourself with what's true? You seem to think your attitude is enough.

1) The oath is to defend the Constitution of the US, which Snowden is doing by blowing the whistle on illegal activity, and you have a total disregard for;

2) Snowden isn't the only one with the knowledge you think is so dangerous; so does every other similar contractor with a similar job description. Any one of them could be talking to anybody for all you know, yet you don't raise any concerns about that.

The rest is name calling. The views you're promoting are cheesy, and morally bankrupt. But if that's what floats your boat, you get to do it in this (as yet) free country (which is no thanks to you).

[bemildred]

23. When your thinking makes no sense, you need to start examining your premises. nt

[FarCenter]

24. If you defect, you have to defect to the other side.

There is no other choice.

[Coyotl]

25. Unless, of course, you live outside the USA and have an objective viewpoint, in which case

He flees a country that starts wars with unchecked impunituy, a country built on genocide for a century exterminating uncounted Nations, ... You get the point, right?

[cali]

26. seriously? you think you can divorce Snowden from President Obama's expanded

domestic surveillance programs.

Leftover from the bushies? Yeah, one adopted in whole and grown by this President.

And YOU calling every whistleblower of the past decade, crazy and delusional is certainly..... interesting. Drake, Tamm, Binney and Wiebe disagree with you.

And their opinions are worth about a thousand times what YOURS is.

[ProSense]

29. Yet,

"Drake, Tamm, Binney and Wiebe disagree with you. "

...none of them fled the country and gave U.S. state secrets to other countries.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023236549

How the Snowden Affair Became a Freak Show
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023235597

[riqster]

95. Typical Cali post.

Yes, I DO think we can divorce a self-confessed liar, traitor and thief (Snowden admitted it in an interview, even if you won't admit it) from a problem whose genesis goes back to when Snowden was in diapers.

My thesis was that Snowden's actions make no sense. I stand by that. And anyone who acts in a nonsensical manner, well, if the shoe fits and all that.

The other whistleblowers you mention I hold in high regard: Almost as highly as I regard Daniel Ellsberg. And the reason I respect them is that they acted like whistleblowers. Snowden is not acting like they did, so I disagree with their assessments in this case.


Notice that I did not attack you in kind, as you did me. Have a good evening.

[cali]

35. It's imbroglio, not inbroglio

it's a lovely word, but your use of is pretentious as hell.

From the esteemed Mr. Orwell:

2. Never use a long word where a short one will do.

Long words don’t make you sound intelligent unless used skillfully. In the wrong situation they’ll have the opposite effect, making you sound pretentious and arrogant. They’re also less likely to be understood and more awkward to read.

When Hemingway was criticized by Faulkner for his limited word choice he replied:

Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words? He thinks I don’t know the ten-dollar words. I know them all right. But there are older and simpler and better words, and those are the ones I use.

[Fumesucker]

52. M and N are right next to each other on the keyboard, could easily be a typo rather than misspelling

Lots of what people call typos aren't but this one quite likely actually is.

[riqster]

93. A typo indeed. Thanks, I'll fix it.

As to why I chose it: sometimes, it's just fun to use a cool word.

Yes, Strunk and White would disapprove. I'll live with that.

[DirkGently]

37. Oh please. Deliberately irrational spin. Here, he'd be in prison.

In another Western allied country, he'd be swiftly returned and put in prison.

Whether or not Russia or China or anywhere else is a better human rights country in general is firstly a strawman, because neither Snowden nor anyone else has argued it. Secondly it deliberately ignores the point of someone trying to stay out of jail while delivering a message.

Ellsberg also avoid authorities while getting the message out, albeit within the U.S.

What the situation actually suggests is the U.S. cannot be trusted to deal fairly with whistleblowers. It's a particularly damning point for the Obama administration, which has abused the Espionage Act in a completely unprecedented way, and in general has gone after whistleblowers hammer and tongs in every instance.

No one is actually so stupid as to not understand this.

[rhett o rick]

40. The post is intellectually dishonest.

"because he thinks they are a more free and open society than America; " and "because he thinks that Putin will be more respectful of human rights than America or Communist China; " and "because he thinks he’ll be “free” there;" How do you or the blogger your quoting have any idea what Snowden thinks?

"This has nothing to do with the debate over domestic NSA surveillance and the like. That leftover from the Bushies needs ripped out by the roots, and that soon." This is interesting. Did "we" all agree on this before Snowden? No. "We" didnt all agree on this until lately. When Snowden first exposed the NSA, all the whistle-blower haters screamed for his immediate hanging and refused to discuss the possibility of problems with the REPUBLICANS running our security agencies. Hold on to your hats, here comes Comey another revolving door conservative security leader.

[cali]

43. +1

[DirkGently]

57. Nailed it. ++

[RC]

65. +10

Why are so many here on DU so comfortable in defending the unconstitutional hoovering of all of our electronic/digital data, that is being put into mega-data bases for computer automated combing for patterns to find anyone that may be possibly controlled (read blackmailed) for their nefarious own use, authorized by secret courts, with secret warrants, operating under secret laws, these secret courts pass, in violation of the US Constitution? And anyone that exposes these unconstitutional operations being subject to being imprisoned for life, hung and/or shot on sight. Trial not necessarily being necessary.

Has our Constitution been secretly amended to add secret amendments, that we cannot be allowed to know about because they have to do with national security? Why else can all this domestic spying be defended? Has the 4th Amendment been rescinded? If not, that alone makes this data hoovering unconstitutional.

As someone that has been here almost form the beginning, what has Democratic Underground become? We are a far cry from the reason for our roots.

[wandy]

48. The definition of insanity.........

You buy a cheep ass, loose cannon contractor instead of paying a government employee, to do a job that should NOT exist.

And you wonder why we are all having a hard time making any sense out of this?

[potone]

60. Very well stated. N/T

[ConservativeDemocrat]

71. A $200,000 a year compensation isn't "cheep ass"

...and there is nothing about a military uniform that makes one immune to treason. So that wouldn't have stopped this either.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[wandy]

76. That's just what Booz Allen Hamilton paid him............

When Booz Allen Hamilton charged the government it would be calculated in something like a 'burden rate'.
Contractor + building + overhead(profit) + PROFIT = 'burden rate'.

A whole lot more than 200K of you're tax dollars paid for a service you didn't want in the first place.
To make it worse, you didn't get what you thought you were paying for.
The Russians got it.

[grasswire]

80. Precisely how did the Russians "get it"?

Please proceed.

[wandy]

89. Quit frankley, I don't we will ever know that..........

That is if there ever was anything to get at all.
Can you tell me for sure that there were in fact four laptops full of 'secret stuff'.
If there were four laptops full of 'secret stuff' can you tell me definitively that the Russians or the Chinese had no interest in it?
If they had an interest would "no you can't have it" have been the right answer?
Sure they would have stopped at pretty please?
Can you even be sure that this isn't just some Karl Rove bull shit?
Do you believe that Glenn Greenwald is the ultimate source of truth?

That would be the problem. Their is no way to proceed. That is unless you wish to believe M$M.
Why would not M$M be truthful?

[grasswire]

91. then why make a declarative statement that the "Russians got it"?

You are expressing all kinds of doubts, otherwise.

[wandy]

92. If it is there, why would the Russians NOT have it......

That would be a declarative statement that expresses two(2) doubts.

Hay, I'm not trying to put a burr under any saddles here, but if you know something for sure please share.

NSA system audit logs would be nice start.

[MannyGoldstein]

77. Snowden Sux!!! nm

[muriel_volestrangler]

100. Of course the Snowden imbroglio has to do with domestic NSA surveillance

Derrr. How uniformed you are. I wouldn't publicise a blog on which you can write something quite so stupid, if I were you. It'd be better if you read a bit more before shooting your mouth off. Especially when you're so rude as to call all Snowden supporters 'sacks of shit'.

[markiv]

102. it's 'two minutes hate' for snowden already?

must be early today, gotta get my correct face ready for the telescreen