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[Cronus Protagonist]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Cronus Protagonist) on Wed Aug 14, 2013, 07:13 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Ash_F]

1. Then he'd be on death row right now. /nt

[quinnox]

3. +10

he sure would.

[Cronus Protagonist]

5. He'd be alive

And he would have been able to use he SYG law in his own favor.

[Ash_F]

24. ..which would have done him no good because he is Black. /nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

39. Being black is just as bad as being dead?

Are you a racist?

[Ash_F]

41. Between this post and the others in this thread

...you've made quite a mess of yourself.

[Cronus Protagonist]

53. Clearly, you haven't read my history

That ship sailed long time ago. Have you ever wondered if maybe something is flying over your head and you don't know what it is?

[Xyzse]

47. Case in Point: Woman who fired a warning shot got 20 years

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/

(CBS News) JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - A Florida woman who fired warning shots against her allegedly abusive husband has been sentenced to 20 years in prison.

Marissa Alexander of Jacksonville had said the state's "Stand Your Ground" law should apply to her because she was defending herself against her allegedly abusive husband when she fired warning shots inside her home in August 2010. She told police it was to escape a brutal beating by her husband, against whom she had already taken out a protective order.

CBS Affiliate WETV reports that Circuit Court Judge James Daniel handed down the sentence Friday.

Under Florida's mandatory minimum sentencing requirements Alexander couldn't receive a lesser sentence, even though she has never been in trouble with the law before. Judge Daniel said the law did not allow for extenuating or mitigating circumstances to reduce the sentence below the 20-year minimum.

[Decoy of Fenris]

48. Someone hasn't been following that case closely, I see... n/t

[Xyzse]

52. Hmmm

She shot a gun at the air. No one was injured. Aggravated assault while defending herself from someone who was not even supposed to be near her at all since he was an abuser that she had a restraining order against.

That she was unable to get out from the garage. Uh-huh.
Yeah, like I said, she may also have had a questionable story.

The guy was a trespasser on her house and threatens her.

[Cronus Protagonist]

54. I read that she went out to her car, picked up her gun and went back in

Some salient details that might change the impression you have. Not that I've been following that case much myself, but I made the same mistake of reading the headlines and not reading the facts of the story.

[Xyzse]

66. Yeah, got to read up more on it.

From what I've read, she went to the garage but could not get out, then got a gun.

[Decoy of Fenris]

71. Oh, and to add to that, she shot at the wall, the bullet ricochetted into the ceiling.

She also issued a "move or I'll shoot" ultimatum while not under stress/duress, and to top it all off, she -retreated- from where she'd otherwise stand her ground, got a gun, and then came back to do these things. Hell, that's borderline worse than what Z did.

[Xyzse]

73. I don't know.

She didn't kill any one.

[Decoy of Fenris]

77. So I can fire all day long over the heads of schoolchildren?

It's okay, I didn't kill anyone!


Seriously, the only reason she's doing this much time is because she turned down the plea. Otherwise, the state HAS to try for maximum sentencing, because it's a gun crime, and that law is a Gun Control law mandating harsh as hell penalties.

I don't know what more you want.

[Lurks Often]

56. Wrong

She was not living there.

I looked into the Marissa Alexander case and it turns out not be quite as clear cut as some of the internet links say:

1. She was not living in the house
2. She went to the house, put her car in the garage
3. The husband, who is without a doubt a POS, is the one who called 911
4. They argue, she allegedly says "I have something for you" goes to the garage and gets the gun
5. The warning shot(s) (which are illegal in most states) were at head height
6. She also stated that the garage door that had worked minutes before was no longer working when she tried to leave
7. She was offered a plea bargain that would have resulted in time served and declined

[Xyzse]

70. Ok, guess I got some wrong

1 - It is a house she parked in.
2 - She was threatened first, she ran out to her car in the garage.
3 - She tried to flee, but her keys were not there. Picked up a gun stored there instead. To defend herself.
4 - She fired a shot as a warning since she felt in danger for her life.

She gets 20 years.

[Lurks Often]

78. Warning shots are illegal and you still have some wrong

here is a link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57434757-504083/fla-woman-marissa-alexander-gets-20-years-for-warning-shot-did-she-stand-her-ground/

And yes the husband is a POS and yes I think 20 years is too long, but the guilty verdict was the correct one based on the information I have seen so far.

[Decoy of Fenris]

79. "Use a gun and you're done." The minimum sentencing is only mitigated for youths. n/t

[Xyzse]

81. Minimum sentencing requirements I think is crazy

I don't disagree that the verdict is right. I think the application of the law is uneven.
Even with Zimmerman, the verdict as written by the law is correct as well.

It is what causes what can be percieved as inequity.

[Lurks Often]

91. I have mixed feelings about mandatory sentences

I've seen too many rapists, attempted murderers and even murderers get far too light a sentence over the years, but then comes a case like Marissa Alexander, when discretionary sentencing should have been a option.

[Xyzse]

93. Thing is, many murderers and rapists get far too light a sentence as is.

While possession of some narcotics can lead to far more years.

[Decoy of Fenris]

60. Assault after retreating to rearm and reckless endangerment around children out of her home.

No Stand Your Ground or Self Defense there, nothing but pure assault and endangering the welfare of a child. And thanks to the insane Gun Control laws there, she's locked away for 20 because she used a gun while committing a crime.

[Xyzse]

72. Where could she go after her car is stuck in the garage?

I agree that she retreated, armed herself so she can defend herself.

We can agree that the gun laws there are insane. Which basically shows how the application of the law is uneven.

[Decoy of Fenris]

76. Her sworn disposition and testimony say otherwise.

Apparently, she walked -past- her abuser(so he wasn't holding her there), got the gun out of the glove box, walked back in (So let's count; No Castle Doctrine, not her house. No Self Defense, she had opportunity to leave. No Stand your Ground, because she didn't. Aggrivated Assault because it was done with intent. Most of this is admitted by the perp), fired into the wall next to her family and ricochetted into the ceiling, then of all things, she turned down a 3 YEAR plea deal voluntarily. Now she's doing 30.


Yeah. No sympathy here. She had every chance to avoid the conflict.

[Xyzse]

84. Yes, I see the probable holes in her story

She pushed past her abuser went to the car, didn't have the keys and got something to defend herself with.

It is also being disputed as to her being able to leave through the way she went. So she went back.

I don't know if I believe her or not. Heat of the moment, she may have believed she could not get out. If she wasn't able to push the door or lock or anything of that sort. Not that it excuses it.

It can also be read that this was her method to get away as well, not that I can condone firing warning shots. That was just dumb. For reckless endangerment, I'd book her. However, arming herself was a preventative measure and a means to stand her ground.

I have no idea what he said or his gestures during the time she had it on though. I don't know if he was acting as if to lunge at her or anything, or verbally threatening her during that time. Things like "You won't shoot me" while coming closer. He did say "If I can't have you, nobody going to have you."

Supposedly she did not aim for him, so that was not deadly force directed on the guy.

Either case, there are many holes in her story, much like I considered there having holes in Zim's. The feeling of inequity comes from the difference in treatment. With him, they pushed away the circumstances before the altercation, with her they seem to have foregoed the threats her husband was making.

I am actually curious what the children had said.

[Decoy of Fenris]

87. My problem is that, within the law, there's no way out for her, outside a plea.

She tossed the plea because she didn't think she did anything wrong, and she's getting a decade and a half extra because of that fact.


I don't know. As with any case, I don't know -all- the facts, and maybe there was a mitigating circumstance, but as a gun owner, one of my primary maxims is "Don't fire unless you aim to kill." right up there with "There's no such thing as a "warning shot"" and "if you're leaving scorch marks, get a bigger gun."

Okay, that last one is from a webcomic, but still.

I mean, I could be horridly wrong, but on a cursory glance, this woman did exactly -everything- she needed to do in order to get a full conviction. There's mounds of evidence, corroborating witnesses, no legal "defense" as a way out... It's almost like she was asking to get jailed, especially after denying the quite-generous plea.

[Xyzse]

90. Yeah, plea deal would have probably worked better

I don't know enough about this, but as per mentioned, this is why there is a perceived unevenness in regards to how the law is applied.

Any how, this just tends to confirm my opinion that people really need much better training in gun use and etiquette.

I also don't know if he tried to take the gun away, or kept on threatening. The idea of don't fire unless you aim to kill makes some sense, but she probably didn't want to kill him and did that to show that she is serious. Stupid, since life is not like a movie, however that is the only frame of reference some people have.

[hack89]

86. Any garage door can be opened manually

the garage door opener can be disengaged. They are designed that way for obvious safety reasona

[Xyzse]

88. Like I said, probable holes

She also said she didn't have the key to the car.
Not sure how that happened either, especially if she took the gun from a glove compartment inside a car.

Her story is a bit off.

[Decoy of Fenris]

92. Even if she got into the car and locked the doors, she'd have a case. But... n/t

[BainsBane]

50. Being on death row is just as bad as being dead

because you die.

[Cronus Protagonist]

55. Still, he would have a chance

It's not guaranteed he would be on death row if he defended himself against an angry man with a gun. In fact, they may have both brandished and had to back down.

[JaneyVee]

32. Exactly what the NRA wants you to believe. Be SCARED of the Trayvon's AND

The Zimmerman's. FEAR FEAR FEAR = $$$$

[Blue_Tires]

83. +1000

I'm this close to getting a CCW and a sidearm...The ONLY thing stopping me is because I know this is exactly what the NRA wants, and I'd feel dirty handing over hard-earned cash to some local nutbar dealer...

[roody]

38. Study American history, then you will

know better.

[Decoy of Fenris]

42. This should help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerican_Empire

Sorry, couldn't help myself.


ON EDIT: Whoa. I just watched your subject change from American to Aerican to American and back Aerican before settling on American. Weird.

[maui902]

46. But other innocent bystanders might not

Just don't like the idea that all of us have to be armed to protect ourselves from the George Zimmermans of the world. I also don't like the idea of two people in an altercation to settle it with gunfire, which eventually will result in people being hurt who are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'd rather focus on policies that discourage people from bringing guns to this type of altercation (I'm not optimistic that we'll get there soon, but my hope is that we'll finally move in this direction vs. arming everyone to the teeth).

[backscatter712]

22. Gov. pRick Scott would be ordering Old Sparky out of retirement! n/t

[quinnox]

2. oh, bull

we as innocent citizens do not need to be forced to carry guns around for our personal safety. That is a world Zimmerman types and those gun nuts would love to have. The fact that Zimmerman went free is just a miscarriage of justice, that I'm sure will be rectified sooner or later. Karma can be a bitch.

[Cronus Protagonist]

6. Interesting read you have

I'm a proponent for banning all guns without an accompanying hunting license. Of course, the solution is to make that happen, but in the meantime, it is true, nonetheless, that Martin would, in this case, have had a much better chance than he had.

If you could bring him back and tell him he can't change anything but this one thing, would he take the gun? You betcha.

[catfish_nuggets]

51. I agree, we shouldn't have to live in fear

On the opposite end of the spectrum, imagine if guns were outlawed, then Zimmerman would never have even followed him for fear of getting his face beat in by Trayvon. I don't think we can ban guns, but I think we could make owning guns and ammunition such a pain in the ass with red tape that most people won't even want to bother with it. The madness has got to stop

[Pretzel_Warrior]

4. stupid statement. neighborhood watch volunteers aren't supposed to engage.

they are supposed to report. The gun was a major problem. 2 guns would have been even more of a problem.
Maybe Trayvon having a gun would ease your conscience because then at least Z would have shot an armed boy.

[Cronus Protagonist]

9. Ease my conscience?

Sorry, but you're projecting and lacking in comprehension skills. If we could rewind and change only one thing, Trayvon might have been able to simply avoid his own death by brandishing or using his own gun. I am not advocating that all kids should have a gun, just that Zimmy wouldn't have been able to do the deed with such impunity if he could be dead or injured himself during the altercation. And, I admit, I'd like to have seen Zimmy in the coroner's van rather than the other way around. The world would surely have improved if that had happened instead of Trayvon's summary murder.

[LaydeeBug]

10. But he *did* engage...and had he thought TM was ARMED too, he would NOT have pursued

wussies never do. It's sad to say that this is their hand, but this *IS* the hand they're dealt, and they have to protect themselves.

When they say the sidewalk is a weapon for a minority youth, it's time to even out the chances.

Minorities need to exercise their RIGHT to keep and bear arms. They have a RIGHT to protect themselves.

[RobinA]

27. Seriously?

Come to my city- Philadelphia. You would surely approve of the constant gunplay and resulting death toll.

[LaydeeBug]

31. I come to your city often, and it's awesome

and they do drive bys because they want to get them when they aren't ARMED.

Sad, but true.

When they say the sidewalk makes the weapon fair play, it's time to make fair weapons.

It sucks, but it beats the sidewalk as a weapon in a shoot out.

[Cronus Protagonist]

14. My conscience needs no easing

I'm on Trayvon's side.

[treestar]

7. kids going to 7 11 for candy should not be taking guns

or have to

[Cronus Protagonist]

12. I agree, now in this case, though

Trayvon would at least have had a chance if he were armed.

[ceonupe]

26. And by default would have been convicted

For having illegal gun and under fl law having illegal gun in a death gets u min mandatory time

[Cronus Protagonist]

57. ...and alive

Which is much better than what he did get.

[ceonupe]

59. How do you figure

Assuming he was armed what if Zimmerman draws first or like some say approached with gun already removed from holster.

In that case TM gets shot and Zimmerman 100% walks as TM can legally even have a gun.

[Cronus Protagonist]

62. So, worst case scenario, same result as now

Best case scenario, Trayvon walks. Now, I'm not a bookmaker, but I think that was a better bet from Trayvon's point of view.

[ceonupe]

67. not arguing but as a ccw holder myself i support the current restrictions

allowing children to carry guns without direct adult supervision is extremely dangerous. i am a huge support of the RKBA and get flamed on here for that but I still dont believe arming 17 years is the answer.

[hrmjustin]

68. Most members believe in gun control here, as I do.

[jmg257]

75. Of course arming 17 yr olds isn't the answer. DISarming the assholes is. nt

[hrmjustin]

64. Too bad Zimmerman was allowed to have a gun.

[Earth_First]

8. Then he would have been illegally possessing a firearm.

This would have solved nothing.

[Cronus Protagonist]

11. Politically, no, but he would have at least the chance of living

If I were he, I would gladly take the gun and shoot that cowardly bastard Zimmerman.

[Earth_First]

15. Taking the gun versus possessing a gun are two different situations..nt

[LaydeeBug]

13. He has a right to protect himself nt

[Earth_First]

16. ...not by owning a handgun illegally. nt

[LaydeeBug]

18. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. GZ's gun was illegal too...fat lot of good that

did. He was not permitted to take his weapon out of his car and he did.

[Earth_First]

19. Indeed. nt

[roody]

40. Self delete

[flvegan]

17. Can't wait until it ends around here.

And by that, I mean the stupid.

We hate guns, but we wish someone else had one because it almost makes a dumb fucking pointless point in regards to something we know absolutely nothing about, but we're angry. And this is what we do, because the internet.

[LaydeeBug]

20. that, and because when half the populace is armed, and the other half is not, guess who wins, right

or wrong?

Just guess.

They said TM was armed with a sidewalk. He would have stood a better chance were he armed with a weapon.

That isn't because that's what we want. It's because that's HOW IT IS. And until we can change the law, we will have to stand our ground.

[flvegan]

25. So, more guns then?

[derby378]

29. That dodge don't work no more

If you don't want to own a firearm, that's your choice. I'm keeping my Tantal. That's my choice.

[flvegan]

33. LOL!

The irony of DU as a collective. Funny.

[pintobean]

21. You know what's really cool?

Adblock plus. I just made your annoying sig line gif disappear.

Oh, and, dumb post. A 17 year old can't lawfully carry a gun. If he had won the shoot out, he would have been tried as an adult and facing more charges than GZ did.

[quinnox]

23. I wasn't gonna say anything but yea, his sig line

is pretty annoying.

[Cronus Protagonist]

58. Oh, so you agree he would be alive?

I think that's much better than the actual outcome.

[pintobean]

63. Not at all.Your hypothetical situation

is completely useless. Martin would be a criminal in your scenario and there's no way of telling what the outcome would be.

[Cronus Protagonist]

65. I know, but he would have had a chance, right?

A chance to live. I don't think anyone can credibly claim otherwise.

[pintobean]

69. You know this thread is useless?

Or, you think it would be just dandy if TM had shot GZ for following him?

I really don't understand why you are pursuing this.

[Cronus Protagonist]

97. Have you ever wondered if...

..perhaps that whooshing sound is something flying over your head?

[pintobean]

101. The black helicopters

make too much noise for me to hear much of anything, and they certainly don't make a wooshing sound.
The fuckers follow me everywhere.

[doc03]

28. Maybe but he would be in prison for the rest of his life n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

37. What about the SYG law?

I think whoever wins in a fair gunfight would easily be able to afford that legal defense. And remember, it's clear that Zimmerman is a coward and a liar, but as a corpse, he would be unable to get his friends to game the system. But the key factor here is that Trayvon would at least have had a chance. Just a chance. Which is way more than he had in actuality.

[roody]

45. What about his race?

He would not stand a chance in the 'justice' system.

[Cronus Protagonist]

98. I think you meant, what about the RACISM?

I hope you were mistaken when you implied that his race was a bad thing. I try to think the best of fellow DU'ers.

[Scootaloo]

30. Better yet, what if the child-raping, cop-assaulting woman-beater with a restraining order....

DIDN'T HAVE A FUCKING GUN?!

A second gun wouldn't have helped. It wouldn't have fucking made ANYTHING better.

[Puzzledtraveller]

34. This post is pure genius.

In awe I stand, in awe I stand.

[Cronus Protagonist]

36. Thank you

It's an important departure point for discussion.

[Major Hogwash]

35. Absolutely!!

Trayvon would still be alive and the police would still be looking for Zimmerman's killer.

It's hilarious reading all of the comments here saying that Travyon would be in prison.
It was late at night, and no one else was there except for Trayvon and Zimmerman!!!!

[MrScorpio]

43. Zardoz has spoken, everybody!

[johnnyrocket]

44. Yes, why ISN'T the NRA saying if Trayvon had a gun he'd be safe?!?

Or, what if Anderson asked that nutty juror if Trayvon could have defended himself with a gun? I mean really, what if Trayvon was carrying a gun?

It doesn't fit their "scary black guy" narrative. I swear, the NRA is just a white supremacist militia group.

[HardTimes99]

49. There's something deeply fucked up about your logic. I'm not sure your

OP constitutes much of an argument for a thesis. But here's my response:

If Trayvon Martin had a gun and presumably used it to execute George Zimmerman extra-judicially (instead of what actually did happen, where GZ extra-judicially executed TM), that would have still been an extra-judicial execution. Still just as wrong.

All adding additional weaponry to the situation does is further increase the potential for still more suffering and tragedy. It doesn't produce more justice or even fewer casualties.

[Cronus Protagonist]

61. Would Trayvon have had a better chance of living?

I think you have to concede that he would.

[HardTimes99]

74. Since actuarial tables show that those in possession of a loaded firearm

are far more likely to die or be wounded by gunfire, I concede no such thing.

I think I understand where the desire to arm Trayvon post mortem comes from. Hell, there's a part of me that wishes Trayvon had enjoyed an escort of armed Black Panthers that night on his walk to the store and back. Now that kind of an escort might well have improved Trayvon's chances of survival.

[n2doc]

80. Then when the police arrived they would have shot him

Black male with a gun is almost a death sentence nowadays.

[Cronus Protagonist]

82. No one would know what happened

Zimbo would be deado and there would be no one to shoot.

[gollygee]

85. He'd be in prison

You think a kid wearing khakis and carrying skittles is called a thug? Wait till he has a gun on him. He'd be found guilty of murder and awaiting execution.

The law works differently for white people than for people of color.

[Cronus Protagonist]

99. In this case, I think he would have got away

And in any scenario that's plausible, he would have at the very least had a better chance to live.

[renie408]

89. This 'logic' ignores the obvious question...why should he HAVE to carry a gun to be safe?

I always find it interesting when gun enthusiasts use this 'logic'. Especially when studies on the subject indicate the exact opposite. Odds are probably higher that both he and Zimmerman would have been injured or killed than that he would have shot Zimmerman without injury to himself.

A young man who is minding his own business walking in his parents' neighborhood shouldn't HAVE to carry a gun to be safe.

[Cronus Protagonist]

94. Here you go... is this the America you want?

...or do you like the one we have?

[Apophis]

95. He'd be on death row right now.

And more guns won't solve anything.

[BklnDem75]

96. Are you serious?

The police would've killed an armed Trayvon on the spot. No questions, no arrests.

[JI7]

100. he would be in prison at least for life or the Police would have shot him dead

or maybe even some other individual who saw a black guy with a gun and got scared .