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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI've never believed that Trayvon ran up on Z to throw the "first punch."
Simply because the only person who wanted a confrontation from the get-go was Zimmerman his damn self. He, of course, was determined to reach Martin and confront him about why he was in the complex and to prevent him from getting away before the police arrived.
It's not like Zimmerman had just popped out of thin air to get his face smashed in by some suddenly violent Black "thug." He accosted the kid and it turned into that tragic struggle.
Trayvon was a young person in fear of his life, especially after Rachel suggested that he was being followed by a grown man rapist. But forget about Trayvon's moment of fear for his own life, because by "law" he forfeited any right of self-defense the very moment Z pulled his gat, put it square in Trayvon's chest and pulled the trigger.
Apparently, the jurors wouldn't mind if their own children were stalked in the dark and the rain by a hot head with a gun and a "good heart," like George Zimmerman.
After all, if they ended up dead, according to their juror parents, it's their own damn fault because they resisted when some creepy-assed vigilante stalked after them in an attempt to secure the safety of the neighborhood.
Oh yeah, and we're supposed to believe everything that Mister Gunman says, no matter how self-serving and ridiculous it sounded.
Did I mention that it's all part of "God's Plan?" Self-determination and ultimate responsibility when you take an innocent life is not-withstanding.
If all of this sounds fucking nuts, that's because it really is.
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DanTex
(20,709 posts)A 17-year-old with no history of violence all of a sudden snaps and decides to attack a random stranger who outweighs him by 40 pounds and bash his head into the sidewalk until he's dead? Not believable.
MH1
(19,156 posts)(I know you aren't saying that it did) It's just one more ridiculous aspect of Z's tall tale.
grahampuba
(169 posts)didn't the accounting come across as Martin was suffocating his breathing with one hand and then bashing his head on the concrete,.. one handed, with Zimmerman being shaved near bald.
and from looking at the photos of Martin's body, without scuffing his jeans at the knees on grass or sidewalk.
My bs detector pretty much peaks at the Zimmerman chain of events.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)Justice was not served and Zimmerman will live in infamy.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)Thank you...my thoughts too.
ananda
(35,145 posts)Z's heart was only in one game, and that was to play pretend vigilante
against the angry, scary black people in the neighborhood, to preen
himself up and get a lot of attention from racist whites.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)looking to use it, has a "good heart. "
heaven05
(18,124 posts)and justice were killed in this trial by the defense, prosecution, judge and not the least, those 6 jurors.
SaveAmerica
(5,342 posts)
csziggy
(34,189 posts)One of which was his mother's name and the other praying hands with his grandmother's initials.
SaveAmerica
(5,342 posts)csziggy
(34,189 posts)I keep seeing the same bogus stuff posted in comments on articles about the case - stuff claimed to be about Trayvon that was long ago proven to have nothing to do with him. It's infuriating.
raccoon
(32,390 posts)Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)The biggest false assumption from the public and even some well-minded DUers is that Zimmerman went into this situation in good faith with the warm, friendly charm of Andy Griffith or something...The problem truly starts when Zim first sees Martin and doesn't think "random, regular person"; he thinks: "potential criminal to be questioned/detained/apprehended at once, by force if necessary"...
That flipped switch in his brain influences EVERY thought and action from that moment forward, including his body language, the physical stance he'd take in approaching Martin, to the tone of his voice and the words he'd say -- Likewise Martin will read Zimmerman's stance and react MUCH differently than he would have under normal circumstances...Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who has EVER been racially profiled by LEOs will know this...
...Zimmerman, adrenaline pumping, self-styled protector of his neighborhood, trusty sidearm on his hip, is now in 'hunter' mode psychologically, and Martin, adrenaline pumping, alone, in a neighborhood he's only sort-of familiar with and with only a few moments to desperately evaluate an incomprehensible situation, is in 'fight-or-flee for survival' mode...
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)It's as if everyone in that courtroom tossed out simple human behavior in order to accommodate Z's cockamamie story.
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)because that narrative (which is almost certainly a 95% accurate account of that night) is laughably easy to build a case around...Tell a story, and make it resonate because jurors are (usually) humans with hearts, minds, and souls...For all the "The prosecution didn't have HARD evidence and that's the only way you can convict!!" -posts I'm reading every hour; I need to start reminding them of some high-profile murder convictions that have been won with much less 'hard' evidence than what Florida had against Zimmerman...
Doesn't necessarily mean the jurors would have ruled differently since they were hellbent on freeing Zimmerman, but anything is better than that half-assed silliness they threw out in court...
They all bought into his made-up, cock and bull vigilante fantasy.
Unbelievable.
Florida, you'll never get a cent of my tourist money with, not just out and out racism in plain view of the whole nation, but dumb ass racism — like the juror who couldn't wait to get out of deliberation to cash in on book deal. Then goes on CNN and lets the world know what an idiot she is.
And she's the wife of an attorney. Wonder who settled in that marriage?
bvar22
(39,909 posts)He spotted his Target.
Grabbed his gun.
Left his vehicle against Police Orders.
Stalked his victim.
Shot his victim.
His victim died.
It doesn't matter Who threw the first punch.
It doesn't matter who was On Top.
Zimmerman WAS the Aggressor.
Zimmerman chose to Pick Up a GUN.
Zimmerman CHOSE to pursue Trayvon.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)Him, with his gun strapped to his back hip, was always hunting. Just looking for the opportunity to exert his neighborhood watch authority over any black person he personally deemed a punk &/or a suspect.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)were 'suspicious' people in the neighbor hood to no avail. He just had to 'prove his worth' and satisfy his ambition to be a hero and a 'man', and it led to killing. He has lost his own freedom to walk freely as an innocent person. a sort of prison of his own making. And he hasn't evaded going to prison yet.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)lumpy
(13,704 posts)Justice needs to be served.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Because we have allowed all this CCW bullshit, carrying a loaded weapon is not seen as a CHOICE and a RESPONSIBILITY. Z brought a deadly weapon into the situation which led to the death of another person. End of story. When did we decide that an unarmed man is the equal of an armed one? And in this case, that person was a MINOR, his decisions or judgements should not have been under scrutiny at all because that is the very definition of being a minor.
I don't know if it's a myth, but every martial arts person or boxer I have known have been the least interested in getting into a fight because if you are a professional, you can have a higher charge. So trained hands are assault with a deadly weapon but a gun is nothing? Nothing?
And our country sick obsession with guns will only be furthered by this rather than hindered. The main argument I see here from nutters is "if some criminal mugs me or breaks into my home, I will blow his head off." I always wonder, especially in the mugging instance, how often that actually happens. If a guy is pointing a gun at you, how do you get to your weapon and shoot him first? Seems the only way this scenario works is if any "suspicious" looking character (i.e. black kid in a hoodie) gets near, just shoot. There will be far more Trayvon Martins I fear, not less.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)"Left his vehicle against Police Orders."
This is actually not what happened. Zimmerman told the 911 operator that he planned to leave his car and follow Trayvon on foot, and the operator (who is not 'the police' in any way) said 'we don't need you to do that'. The testimony of the operator makes it clear that they're forbidden to give 'directions' to people in dangerous circumstances due to liability issues.
What the operator was doing was 'covering his ass', wanting to make it very clear that he was not ASKING Zimmerman to follow Martin.
Thus, the 911 operator did not 'order him' to stay in his car, nor is a 911 operator in any way 'police'.
My posting history will show that I'm 100% on TM's side in this whole thing, so to be clear, I'm only mentioning this to you because when one makes an argument with one glaring factual error, it gives people (who are so inclined) license to discount your entire argument 
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)& breathing heavily. which is why the dispatcher asked 'are you following him?' -- because he could hear the heavy breathing.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)I stand by my assertion that it does us no service to twist the facts when making our 'cases' about the wrongness of what happened.
I actually misspoke myself above, it was not even a 911 operator Z was speaking to, it was a 311 operator (non-emergency), at least according to Randi on her show which I was just listening to.
To claim that GZ received 'police orders' to 'stay in his car' or the like is just simply not true, and we don't need to resort to untruths in order to make our argument here.
GZ was *informed* by a volunteer 311 operator, someone with zero authority and probably little training, who was doing nothing but covering their own ass ... that he was not *obliged* to follow Trayvon.
It's basically a meaningless factoid, yet I see people conflating it into a 'police order' all over the internet lately by TM supporters, a group I consider myself part of.
I just really feel like we don't *need* resort to BS, & we're just inviting people to reject our argument by doing so.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)dispatcher said 'we don't need you to do that' i would take it as 'don't do that,' not as 'well, we don't need you to do that, but you can continue doing it if you like'.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)One which, in fact, has absolutely zero bearing regarding my overall point ... so imho you're being disingenuous by jumping on it, but ... whatever.
The simple facts are:
1) 311/911 operators are NOT 'police', and
2) The very operator involved testified that people in his position are basically forbidden to give orders to anyone to do anything, and that hence what he was actually doing there was clarifying that he wasn't telling GZ to follow Trayvon.
These operators (actually probably their superiors) are liable for any 'direct orders' they give to people. 'Yes...follow him', and 'No, don't follow him' ... both would constitute 'orders'. An operator would never know if ANY order ... could turn out to be dangerous, in the end.
So, the operator, at the time, was 'covering his rear', making it clear that NO ORDER TO FOLLOW is being given here. He was worried that his previous requests for information as to 'what Trayvon was doing' was being construed by Zimmerman as 'official requests for him to follow', so he was trying to put that potential misconception (which could get him in trouble) to rest.
If you don't 'get' why it's baloney to say he was 'ordered' by 'police' to 'not/stop following', without further elaboration as to what you mean by 'police' and by 'order' ... then I don't know. I guess we have different definitions of these words.
I contend that, using the common, literal meaning of these two words, such an assertion is simply not a true statement. There were no actual orders given to GZ at all, much less by 'the police'.
Lastly, my guess is that ZimZim most likely knows a lot more than the average person when it comes to 'calling 311/911', and what the extent of the operators authority is. Seeing as how he was calling them all the time 
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)The fucked up thing is this: In the fucked up world of Florida criminal law, it does.
Florida law states (and I'm paraphrasing, obviously), that if you start a fight, then as you get your ass kicked by a string bean high school student who weighs 40 pounds less than you, you can shoot said string bean kid.
It's fucked up, but that's the way those fucktards in Tallahassee wrote their law. Ignoring race for a moment (I know, it's hard, but bear with me), but the fact that the state has such a bullshit law — as paraphrased above, you can pick a fight, but if you start losing you can blast away whoever is on top of you — that's a fucking outrage.
Being that it's a white guy shooting a black kid and nobody even bothers to investigate for a month in a half just adds insult to the injury. Can't say I'm surprised the African-American community (and others who don't carry guns every day) are well beyond pissed. While Zimmerman might be OK from a criminal and civil perspective for what the hard-core gun-humpers call a "good shoot" (which in of itself makes me sick), I'm waiting for the feds to crawl up his ass. They might not get him on a civil rights violation (but they'll try, and I'm definitely cool with that), but there's always the IRS to audit the fuck out of all those donations come April 15.
Unfortunately, Florida doesn't have a law against being stupid (by ignoring a police dispatcher and stalking people). I wonder why not? Oh, wait. Because every GOP teabagger official in the state would have to lock themselves up 
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)The thing is to make the process as long, painful, and permanent as possible. The message must be that even if you go free, you will pay a very high price for killing someone. You will lose your job and probably never get another one. You will always feel like there is a target on your back. You will lose most of your friends and probably many of your family members will also shun you. You will die alone, broke, and probably by your own hands.
Kablooie
(19,107 posts)If he surrounds himself with those people he could be isolated from most of the issues you mentioned.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)will die hungry and penniless.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)and needs to be changed,
and the US Justice Department NEEDS to IMMEDIATELY bring charges against Zimmerman for Depriving Trayvon of his Civil Rights to Walk while Black,
and throw Zimmerman's murdering ass in a Federal Pen for a LONG time.
This will at least serve notice to the State of Florida that they can NOT supersede Federal law with their insane State legislation,
and serve as an example to any crazy Zimmerman Vigilante Wannabes.
When my Daddy, a Marine Combat veteran of the Pacific War,
gave me my first rifle at age 10 in 1959,
and spent 3 days in the woods teaching me Marine Firearms Handling & Safety,
he gave it to me with THIS WARNING:
*You have already decided to KILL,
*and be ready to spend the rest of your life in JAIL.
...because ONCE you pick up that gun and go after someone,
you have no other options.[/font]
I still have that old bolt action .22,
still shoot it occasionally
and I still live by my Father's instructions concerning the ownership and use of Firearms.
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)The law is wrong. Plain and simple. The jury (being made up of, well, people too dumb to get out of jury duty) did what they were supposed to: be a cog in the system. The law should be changed (but with the state of Florida politics, it will be changed for the worse, I'm sure).
I agree with your sentiments about carrying a gun. I was raised (by old Army and Marine drill instructors) to know that guns are tools designed for one reason alone — to destroy whatever you point them at. If you carry a gun and go after someone, you've already decided to use it. You've already made your decision that you will shoot whatever it is you're going after (in this case, a 17-year-old who made the "mistake" of walking around a half-hour after sunset and trying to "shake" some creepy-ass cracker). Too bad too many people are flippant about such things.
I never want to know how it feels to kill someone. That's why I don't carry a gun. Oh, and I'm not so scared and insecure I can't leave my house without a 9mm security blanket. I have a cell phone to call the cops and my fat ass (I really am trying to get it smaller 
) to throw at someone if I feel scared for my life — which, coincidentally, I've never felt the need enough to use even those options, and I've been in some scary shit before.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)probably even used the N word.
ewagner
(18,967 posts)Zimmerman said that when the confrontation happened, he (Zimmerman) reached for his cell phone to call the emergency number....
I don't think so....try this scenario...pick it apart...look for the problems with it...
I think he confronted Martin, started grilling him (Rachael's testimony?)and when Martin resisted, he reached for his gun....Martin hit him and then the two tussled....Zimmerman already had the gun in his hand when Martin got on top of him probably trying to keep Zimmerman from aiming the gun at him...that would be why Martin was screaming for help..somehow Zimmerman got his arm free and shot Martin...
We know from witnesses that the two of them were on the ground at some time and only one witness said that Martin was on top....the scenario has to follow the evidence but what led up to that moment has no witnesses...
We will never know...but we can speculate...just like Zimmerman's attorney's did with the animation..
lumpy
(13,704 posts)Martin and Martin tried to walk away and Zimmerman tried to prevent him, he was determined to not let his latest 'they always get away with it' person get away and tackled Martin. Well he made damned sure didn't he.
dkf
(37,305 posts)Both Rachel Jeantel's testimony and Zimmerman's own words have Trayvon making that first move.
So many have said Zimmerman is a coward. Why would he have taken the first whack?
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)And just about ALL bullies are cowards. The two are not mutually exclusive, any person who has ever dealt with a bully understands that fact.
And, no, Jeantel DID not testify that Trayvon made the first move, quite the opposite:
“Ms. Fulton did not ask me,” Jeantel said.
Jeantel also admitted giving a different play-by-play of the phone call to Crump vs. what she testified Wednesday. She told Crump during an interview last year that while she was talking to Martin she heard a man on the phone ask, “What are you talking about?” But Wednesday, Jeantel had testified that on that night she heard a man who sounded to be out of breath say to Martin, "What are you doing around here?"
Martin then said, “Get off, get off,” before the phone cut off, Jeantel said Wednesday.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19175621-zimmerman-testimony-focuses-on-letter-given-to-trayvon-martins-mom?lite
dkf
(37,305 posts)“Trayvon say ‘why are you following me’ and then this man, oh my god, saying ‘what you doing around here’. That was the last time we talked. It still feels awkward to me, like wow, that really happened because I never saw it coming. I’m just in shock right now,” explained Jeantel.
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/07/15/exclusive-rachel-jeantel-responds-to-zimmerman-verdict/
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)And which one sounds the most aggressive?
dkf
(37,305 posts)If Zimmerman was a bully wouldn't he be the one to start the verbal confrontation?
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)asking a question is only confrontation if the person listening is a complete asshole. in this case, zimmerman, like yourself, may conclude that the question was actually confrontation. i'd say that's an indication of an elevated sense of entitlement.
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)Because what you're proposing is that a defense statement, is in fact, aggressive because it was said first.
A defensive posture is by definition a response TO AN aggression, is it not?
And what to bullies do? They engage in acts of aggression.
You're proposing that Martin INVITED Z's aggressive response of "What are you doing around here" by questioning him for following him.
Doesn't that sound ridiculous?
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)for Zimmerman to follow him in the first place. Why wouldn't Trayvon ask why he's being followed? I would've done the same thing. In fact he was simply asking for clarification.
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)If your logical skills are equal to juror B37. By this logic TM would be the aggressor if he stated "don't shoot me." Hell, if he used a curse word then he must be a thug.
WolverineDG
(22,298 posts)It all begins by letting your opponent know you are aware of them.
They are ALREADY the aggressor by stalking/menacing you.
Zimmerman is 100% responsible for what happened. If he had followed the rules of the HOA neighborhood watch program, Trayvon would still be alive.
get real, so if a woman screams for help while being cornered in an alley.
she's the aggressor?
I cannot believe the shit people say to justify this whole ordeal.
to believe that you are trying very hard to make Trayvon the aggressor. You can't have it both ways, when apparently, if Jeantel heard that, then Trayvon must have been on his cell phone with her. You can't come out of the dark from no where and jump on a person while talking on your cell phone.
It fits right into with Zimmerman coming up on Trayvon and him asking why are you following me. If Zimmerman did in fact say the words Jeantel claimed, that means he aggressively went after Trayvon without telling Trayvon who he was. It could have meant he probably had that gun too already in position , in case Trayvon tried to escape him again. It could have meant he went rigfht up and grabbed the kid so he couldn't run and Trayvon lost cell phone connection with Jeantel. Everything after could have been the struggle Good and those other witnesses saw.
The only problem is who was calling for help? The one with the loaded gun or the one fighting for his life? The only person claiming he knew was John Good. I believe Jeantel before I believe Good. Jeantel is the only witness testified to the start of the fight. That is the witness, the defense had to discredit. She was a very reluctant witness and she didn't express herself very well on that stand. The defense and Prosecution both knew her weaknesses testifying. She just couldn't communicate as well as an FSU Grad like John Good. That doesn't mean she was lying and he was telling the truth though in their testimonies.
They interrogated and badgered that woman with the same questions over and over again, until it frustrated her. The judge allowed it and the prosecution never stepped in and objected. I saw right through that. They just kept right at her, until she just went along, because she just wanted to get outta there. The defense wasn't interested in the truth, they just wanted to discredit her testimony. They ridiculed her just like they did Trayvon.
'Why are you following me?' = aggressive
FOLLOWING THE PERSON YOU'RE ABOUT TO MURDER = ?????????
Starry Messenger
(32,381 posts)n
chowder66
(12,243 posts)"Miss Jenteal told the court she heard Trayvon ask Mr Zimmerman "what are you following me for?", adding: "Then I heard a hard-breathed man come and say 'what are you doing around here?'." Having "just told him to run", she heard the headset used by Trayvon to speak on his mobile phone fall to the ground, before hearing her friend shout: "Get off! Get off!", she said."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10145034/Trayvon-Martin-told-George-Zimmerman-to-get-off-him-before-shooting.html
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)dkf
(37,305 posts)“Trayvon say ‘why are you following me’ and then this man, oh my god, saying ‘what you doing around here’. That was the last time we talked. It still feels awkward to me, like wow, that really happened because I never saw it coming. I’m just in shock right now,” explained Jeantel.
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/07/15/exclusive-rachel-jeantel-responds-to-zimmerman-verdict/
uppityperson
(116,020 posts)Staring, following closely was the first confrontation.
dkf
(37,305 posts)What evidence is there that he was following closely?
uppityperson
(116,020 posts)uponit7771
(93,532 posts)...part of the trial?!
tia
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I think I'd notice, is that a normal thing to do? Asking someone why they are following you is not aggregation, it is defense against someone who quite obviously has some plans for you
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)...though it's been widely talked about and covered on DU.
uppityperson
(116,020 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)i know all their monikers. i hope to purge DU of these racially-insensitive assholes. DU cannot continue to condone this shit and claim this is a respectful place.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)...how you're missing that little material fact.
brush
(61,033 posts)He killed an unarmed kid who he pursued with a loaded weapon.
The gun trumps everything. Everything! And that's not that hard to understand if one has non-biased, fully operating thought process.
All you zimmy supporters are hollering about how scared that killer must have been but you can't be serious.
The one with gun would not be the scared one, geniuses.
The one with the gun pointed at him would be the scared one. And Martin had very good reason to be scared.
Soundman
(297 posts)There is little doubt that Martin attacked. But you have to understand most didn't watch the trial and have no clue about the evidence presented.
Oddly enough there was a 16 year old gunned down recently here near my town, I don't hear one word out of the hypocrites about him. http://www.nbc4i.com/story/22850304/16-year-old-ohio-boy-dies-after-columbus-shooting
John2
(2,730 posts)doubt, that you can attack someone fighting for your life. That is the logic you seem to miss. There is no doubt, that in order to shoot a person, you have to attack them. The only problem is determining which one was fighting in self defense and for their life. The 17 year old 158 pound boy with his hands or the 204 pound 28 year old adult male with a loaded gun. I would rather have Zimmerman's advantage, thankyou.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)And sometimes bias and self serving agendas override fairness and logic.
Soundman
(297 posts)Boxing matches and probably close to 100 bar fights (due to the nature of my work). I can tell you with 100 percent certainty size does not matter. One night is saw a smallish girl kick the living shit out of a much bigger man. It usually comes down to who gets in the first most effective punch. I have rarely, if ever seen someone that was knocked down by a punch and ended up on the bottom ever prevail, unless the guy on top got off.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)Why would the Martin kid attack Zimmerman?
Motive?
Was he bitten by a radioactive spider who's venom turned him into a homicidal maniac on his way home? Is that it? And Zimmerman could tell all this when he saw him from a distance.
You're just completely full of it. The Martin kid had no motive at all to attack anyone. Period.
Bake
(21,977 posts)A 17 year old kid starting shit with a much scarier looking guy who is trailing him?
I don't think so. I've got a son who was once 17. I know what he'd have done. Start a fight? Hardly. Get the hell outta there? Yep.
Bake
lumpy
(13,704 posts)He was on his way to go home then. Martin probably was surprised to see that he had not evaded Zimmerman. Believable that Zimmerman approached Martin and demanded what Martin was doing there. Martin tried to walk away and Zimmerman was not going to let him "get away' and tried to hold Martin, knowing the police were on the way.
Iggo
(49,927 posts)KG
(28,795 posts)before the trial, there's no reason to believe a fucking word he's ever said.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)a fake tough guy
a punk
a lame
a wussy
a coward
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)...grades up.
mzmolly
(52,793 posts)of the mind to confront Zimmercop.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)lumpy
(13,704 posts)her testimony and made her look like an unreliable witness. Dirty lawyering using an uninformed and naive young witness to further his case.
John1956PA
(4,964 posts)During the course of his pursuit of Trayvon, Z's adrenalin level was surging, and his boldness was heightened by his grip on his weapon. When Trayvon confronted him face to face, Z cowardly resorted to firing his weapon when a reasonable mind would have realized that Trayvon was not posing a significant threat of harm.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)i have a 16 yo soon to be 17 yo great nephew...he looks a lot like trayvon. he is kid. he's not walking around looking to take on 28 yo men. zimmerman is a coward and a racist and a liar.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)The only thing that makes sense to me is GZ was close, had his weapon in his hand, and pointed at the ground.
GZ appears to be that stupid. He was certainly untrained. He is mentally/emotionally unfit to be a policeman. He had a small exposure to MMA (martial arts take years of hard work to master), long enough to get the macho aggressive hard sell to keep him a paying customer. He, as a habit, made "unofficial" watch patrols (neighborhood stalker) while armed [question; was he armed when he made official watch patrols?]. When given advice/instructions from an actual professional in law enforcement; he the not-fit-to-become-a-professional-Leo, thought said advice/instructions were substandard and acted with all his not-fit-to-become-a-professional-Leo judgment. And discontinued contact with the law enforcement professionals because....why..they were downing his groove?
He is stupid enough to get close, expose his firearm as not ready, think his magic gun made everyone respect him, and catastrophically underestimate TM.
For his part, TM was followed through his own neighborhood by a adult stranger with a nearly shaven head who stopped him and walked up with a small pistol in his hand, and the asshole had it pointed away. TM probably thought, "I get only one chance"
SeaLyons
(3,559 posts)The gun was out in his hand, Trayvon reacted to save his life. GZ could not have gotten the gun out of the holster while on his back. Impossible. It was Trayvon screaming and that cold blooded killer shot that kid in the heart.
valerief
(53,235 posts)whopper of a lie.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)I believe Zimmerman already had the gun in hand when he approached Trayvon. Trayvon upon seeing the gun jumped Zimmerman in an attempt to save his own life, thus, we heard Trayvon screaming for help, until the murderer shot him in the heart stopping the screams for help.
I believe Trayvon fought for his life in self defense against a racist, hellbent on taking his frustrations out on the person he profiled as a criminal.
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)Even THAT is a reasonable assumption.
I'm serious.
It's a much more plausible theory than by any of the people who are pushing that "Trayvon snapped" bullshit.
handmade34
(24,017 posts)is what I have believed from the get go... and the more I learn about Trayvon (esp. Rachel Jeantel's interview on Piers Morgan last night) and the entire incident; the more I am sure of it
John2
(2,730 posts)one person to support his story though. John Good saved his ass. The prosecution should have went after him the same way the defense attacked Jeantel. I saw some discrepancies in his testimony for sure. Between Good's account and Zimmerman's account, the testimony doesn't fit. You can start with the lighting and what Good actually could have seen from where he was at. Zimmerman claimed it was so dark, he didn't even see where Trayvon came from. The other witnesses claimed the same thing. Then there is his description of ground and pound. His claims that he told both to stop and just watched until he thought it got serious. Even Zimmerman made no claims Good said that, and claims he specifally made eye contact with Good and told him to help. If I saw a man getting beat to death and asked me for help, I would have intervened on the spot. I wouldn't have ran inside and immediately called 911, if that person's life was in immediate danger. Think about what other people have done in those situations, when somebody's life is in immediate danger. If a person was drowning, would you call 911 or assist? And I doubt Trayvon would kill some one right in front of Good or after he saw him. I don't think Trayvon would have been that stupid.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)...who the hell does that?!
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)But nobody in their right mind attacks someone that they KNOW has a gun esp. when they have NO weapon, and esp. not when that gun is out and visible. What you describe is, in my very humble opinion, not a likely scenario ... no offense
I do think though that he was in fear from GZ (apparently in the end he had great reason TO fear him) and I have no trouble believing TM threw the first punch because he was in fear, and taking pre-emptive action. Rachel had just put the idea in his head that GZ was a rapist, for one thing, and TM himself had just (rather famously) told her the guy following him was 'creepy'. I just don't think TM knew about the gun until seconds before it was blowing a hole in his chest.
It's funny, I was watching Chicago the other night, and you know the scene where Roxie is like a puppet on the Gere's character's lap, and they're singing the song where it's like they're practicing for the trial, and it goes 'we both reached for the gun, the gun, the gun' (even though it's total BS)?
I was reminded then just how old and tired that particular line of defense is ... and I thinking that probably 99% of the time it's used ... it's bullshit. I feel like an attorney should be laughed out of the courtroom for putting such cliched nonsense forward.
PsychGrad
(239 posts)Agree 150%
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)I believe that the OP is correct. However, I also do not believe that was established beyond a reasonable doubt at the trial.
We still follow the precept of "Innocent before proven guilty" in this country.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
mzmolly
(52,793 posts)No "common sense" in that brain.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)And for a long time, I was thinking the same thing as you. You can go back through my recent posts and see me saying I wanted Zimmerman to go to jail for what he did, that I think he's a murderer and even that he left his house with the intent to kill.
Yesterday, however ... I learned of the situation with the disallowed-by-the-judge text messages and Trayvon's personal recent history ... apparently Trayvon had been in numerous fights, according to these texts. He'd also been recently kicked out his mothers home for his behavior, he'd been suspended from school on more than one occasion for pot possession (in fact he was suspended at the time of his death), and he'd also been caught by school officials with women's jewelry in his backpack that he'd been unable to explain where it came from, along with a screwdriver (which officials wondered whether it was possibly a burglary tool at the time).
Now, to be clear, I'm still 100% on Trayvon's 'side' in this whole thing. I FULLY believe, as the Judge did, that this stuff was basically immaterial to the case at hand. It doesn't 'prove' anything. I also think Trayvon had a right to defend himself, I even think under the circumstances, given ZimZim's failure to identify himself or his 'goals', Trayvon had a 'right' to throw that first punch. And I don't buy about 95% of Zimmerman's 'story'.
However, given the totality of Trayvon's personal 'situation' at the time of the murder, I actually find it very easy to imagine that Trayvon could've thrown the first punch. I just don't think that gave Zimmerman a right to shoot him in the chest. I think Zimmerman, in the shape he was in at the time, could've easily whipped Trayvon's skinny ass if he'd wanted to. But he didn't want a fight, he wanted to kill Trayvon.
I don't, however, think it was a racial thing though ... the FBI did a thorough investigation and found no evidence of racially-based intent, so ... who am I to doubt their assessment? I certainly know a lot less about the facts than they do.
Race, however, WAS involved in the ensuing actions of the police, IMHO. And I bet came into the juries mind as well. People's racial stereotypes are what makes Zimmermans's story even conceivably seem true.
John2
(2,730 posts)you stated in relation to violence is hearsay, off his personal social media accounts. It is not fact or evidence. You can go on social media accounts right now between kids communicating about the thug life or brandishing a gun just for the image of it, because they think it is glamorous or something. Do you know anything about rap or the hiphop generation? That is why they couldn't understand Jeantel. The defense took advantage of that bravado and imagery, and tried to misuse it. They couldn't actually come up with any witnesses Trayvon ever beat up anybody. Don't you think, he would have had a criminal record of assaults if he did?
The only record they came up with is a pipe with marijuana residue in it. What was the last Polls or research now on how many teenage kids have smoked pot now? And isn't it legal now in some states? So what was so abnormal about a teenager smoking pot?
Then there is this being caught with female jewelry and some screw driver as a burglary tool. He claimed the jewelry belong to a friend and it was never proven as stolen. You sure Trayvon didn't have a lot of girl friends at his age?
Then there was the time he got caught writing Graffitti on the school walls. Are those the things you are referring to, that Trayvon Martin got suspended for? What is so violent about those?
Now lets look at Zimmerman's record. This is not hearsay but a criminal record or events of violence by an Adult male. Trayvon by the way was still considered a juvenile. Assault against a police officer, and got downgraded after plea bargaining with the prosecutor. A restraining order for domestic violence against his ex. An alleged incident with another motorist in which the motorist claimed Zimmerman acted like he wanted to attack him. Allegedely the motorist claimed Zimmerman called the police on him for spitting gum out of his car window, and Zimmerman started rear ending his car all the way to his house. Zimmerman claimed he called the police because the motorist spitted on his car. The police didn't file charges on either man, but apparently there is a record of it. There are also records of 911 calls, Zimmerman apparently made claims against other people on minor things, which upsetted him.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)He had been caught with pot/residue/whatever ... on school grounds, and had THC in his system at the time of death (so he'd smoked weed at least within the prior month).
He had been suspended from school because of it, and was suspended at the time of his death.
He had been kicked out his mom's house for his behavior (or maybe drug use, I'm not actually sure), and was no longer living there when he died.
The defense had texts from TM's phone where he was talking about fighting (and losing, actually), and IMHO they're pretty nonchalant in tone, like getting in fights was a normal part of everyday life or something. Who knows, maybe this was just like 'practice' MMA fighting with a buddy or something, cause TM does talk about 'Round 1' in the text. However, people DO get into fights, especially youths, without the police ever being called and charges filed. & we're not talking social media here, we're talking texts, presumably between friends. Less likely to just be 'bravado/posturing', imho.
And yes, you're right, the jewelry thing was never proven, and I'm *certainly* not saying 'oh, he DID steal it', only that school officials suspected that it may be stolen. This could've contributed to him having a bad mindset re: authorities in his life.
I didn't mention the graffiti thing either, because I didn't even know about that one.
And I didn't mention the social media stuff, the pictures with guns or whatnot. Yeah, I'm very familiar with 'the culture'.
I'm ALSO saying all that stuff should've been left out of the court case here, just as Zimmerman's prior stuff was left out.
But if you ask me, it's not even remotely difficult for me to imagine, given the totality of everything going on in this kid's life at the time ... that he was 'not in a good place', mentally. He may've been feeling very persecuted given all that was going on with the authority figures in his life, and when GZ started following him, and then started harassing him ... he may've friggin' snapped. Or maybe he hit GZ first because he was terrified of him ... both are completely feasible scenarios, and also are not mutually exclusive. The whole thing adds up to TM feeling a great deal of stress as a result of GZ's (profiling) actions, and him acting to 'stand his ground' in teh face of a perceived threat.
I'm not saying that IS what happened, but I by no means would find it 'hard to believe'. I don't know why anyone would. Maybe it's the fact that Zimmerman seems to be lying about other stuff that leads folks to assume he's lying about everything, but personally ... that particular point on who attacked first by throwing the first punch ... I'd not be shocked if was telling the truth.
Fact is, Trayvon was not the innocent little 13 year old cutie-pie from the one pic we've all seen, or the kid riding the horsie in this thread ... when he was killed. Not anymore. If you take an HONEST look at everything that's known here, it's pretty clear at the time of his death that he was a troubled kid, possibly in the early stages of gang involvement, and at a minimum on Social Media he was wanting to put on airs that he was a 'gangsta' type, somebody not to be trifled with, etc. Even in 'the hiphop generation', it's generally regarded as a 'sign of trouble on the horizon' when people start posturing like that.
But NONE of the above means that he deserved to get gunned down. The most important thing AFAIC is that NOBODY testified that GZ had any remotely serious injuries. The head-bashing thing was obviously BS, and there was no evidence of a 'broken nose'. If his head was bashed, why were no paramedics called? Why no trip to the hospital? If his nose was busted, and his head smashed against cement, why wasn't there (GZ's) blood all over the friggin' place?
And why, under THESE circumstances, wouldn't the cops (or people at the hospital) have taken a BUNCH of pictures of GZ's injuries, since they had to know from word 'go' that he was claiming 'self-defense', right?
I know why ... cause that part of the story was BS. They didn't take those pics cause they'd not have shown what they wanted them to show. And I think the cops were on GZ's 'side' from word go.
And the idea that GZ, with his recent MMA training, and the size and build that he was at that time (check out the pics from his first court appearance) ... the idea that he would've lost a fight with the 17 year-old stick-figure that was Trayvon is pretty ludicrous to me. He should've EASILY been able to kick Trayvon's butt in a fight. But he didn't want to. He brought his gun for a reason, to make sure that 'Punk' didn't get away this time.
The 'SYG' and Self-Defense laws are what made this whole tragedy possible if you ask me. GZ knew the exact law, knew exactly what to say to the cops, and what he could get away with, I'd bet any amount of money on that.
The whole thing is esp. sad because 5 years ago, before SYG and such, the jury would've gotten VERY different instructions, and Zimmerman would've gone away for a long time. Those laws, that put a premium on LIFE, should've been preserved.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)took over their lousy investigation. Lets hope the FBI is more astute in the investigation.
Hubert Flottz
(37,726 posts)If a man not wearing a uniform, who I'd never seen in my life, followed me in the dark and came up close to me aggressively, I'd throw the first punch if I possibly could. How was Trayvon not to know that Zimmerman wasn't a mugger OR worse? Zimmerman would never have been touched if he'd stayed in his car like he was advised by the adult authorities to do. And now we know that the night all this took place, was not the first time Zimmerman lay in ambush in his car with a loaded weapon.
I'm a veteran and an old white, southern, democrat who is deeply saddened and very sorry, about all of this and I know that this case is just the tip of the iceberg in Florida. I believe that the DOJ has a duty to investigate the Florida state government from top to bottom. "This Aggression Should Not Stand," or go unpunished. I think the Martin family deserves "Closure" too, just like a white family would demand and expect. I believe that the American Civil War decided that there are lines that no single state in America should ever cross. The guarantee of a fair trial for the murder victim's family and the accused, is a line that should be drawn in every state in America, without political intervention and or manipulation, in the outcome of a fair trial.
If the state of Florida has nothing to hide, why then, would it not want the DOJ to come in and make sure that everything and everyone involved in this case, did everything in their power to provide a fair outcome?
mstinamotorcity2
(1,451 posts)blue in the face. But it will still be hard for some folks to believe that Trayvon Martin and all the other Trayvon Martin's that they say no one talks about are the victims of greedy weapon manufacturers and for profit prison systems. And trigger happy civilian neighborhood watch tricksters. Not to mention after they kill our children they will all profit from their deaths. Friends, neighbors, hell the exercise guy at the gym, Will sell the story of their demise. And if the killers make it to court after 45 days, it will be the jury's turn to make the government cheese.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)definately biased for Zimmerman, like Zimmerman was such a marshmallow he couldn't punch his was out of a paper bag. This 'witness' was presented by the defense to bore the sense out of the jury, tactic called 'fogging'.
mstinamotorcity2
(1,451 posts)Fogging. Thanks I learned something new. I have a problem with everyone surrounding Mr. Zimmerman writing books, co-writing books, hiding funds from private donors, offering MMA training classes, jurors wanting in on the action. Its fucked up. Its like they are all standing in line with their take on this tragedy. This is Sabrina Fulton and Tracey Martin's child. Its just so rethuglican.
krawhitham
(5,072 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)I think Zim had the gun pointing at Martin's chest from the time Martin turned around and asked why Zim was following him. I don't think a fight occurred and Zimmerman decided to shoot Martin and then restrain him until police got there.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,498 posts)The state bore the ultimate burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. But Zimmerman, having raised the affirmative defense of self-defense, still had to put forward a plausible theory of self defense.
The defense failed to put forward such a plausible story. They failed miserably.
It made no sense. Zero sense. No sense whatsoever.
What was left was that Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin without any plausible theory of self-defense.
Boom. Guilty of second degree murder right there.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)Sat Jul 13, 2013, 03:16 PM
Star Member SoCalDem (100,200 posts)
a 5'11" person, grabbed from behind by a 5'7" person, would probably automatically fling their elbow around (in an attempt to wrest themselves free) , catching the shorter person behind, in the NOSE..
Person behind (startled) , "might" have been knocked off their feet and sent reeling backwards "wet grass & sneakers" onto the drain, concrete, whatever..(creating gravel/pebble on concrete smallish wounds on a bald head)
That person, furious, might just have drawn the gun (if it were not already in his hand)..that could certainly cause the other person to begin screaming for help. (seeing a gun)
If the falling person held onto to clothing grabbed, the taller person (wet grass) could have certainly have been dragged down with the falling person, and a tussle undoubtedly would have occurred as one tried to hold on and the other tried to escape.
That is what I wish the prosecution had proffered..
There would not necessarily have been nose-blood on the elbow of the garment, since the nose may not have instantly bled.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023245488
eilen
(4,955 posts)No way a 17 yo kid is going to want to touch a stranger. When a stranger grabs their arm (like their principal might to hustle them down the hall) --he does not want to be touched and tries to shake him off by bringing his arm up and back. Zimmerman did not sustain the kind of injuries that would support a beating. He refused to go to the hospital. Who does that if they were just a few minutes prior afraid of their brains being bashed in "repeatedly into concrete"-- no concussion or subdural hematoma? He was trying to strong arm this kid and knew the police were coming and what was he going to say when they got there and this "punk" had gotten the best of him?
This man is delusional, no remorse and never going to admit it. He is a sociopath. His family and supports are giving him justification d/t their bigotry. I hope someday his behavior brings actual consequences but I don't want anyone else to be victimized by this jerk. He will most certainly get divorced. I hope he never gets to be a policeman.
Ohio Joe
(21,898 posts)By his own admission he left the car with both his gun and a flashlight that he says did not work... Why bring a flashlight that does not work?
Trayvon must have been terrified... Someone following him first in a vehicle, then on foot carrying what must have looked like some type of billy club... Z is a sick fucking bastard to have done that to a kid.
SIBIndi
(11 posts)GZ, while found legally (that's another conversation) defending himself at the end, did so many stupid thing to lead up to that....all he had to do was identify himself and this could have been avoided...If nothing else comes of this, there should be some law that if you are an official or even unofficial neighborhood watch you need to identify yourself to everyone you speak to.....or have something on your car. I don't think he's a bad dude but damn is he stupid...
My personal feelings about the tragic death of Trayvon Martin aside....
Commenting on which side should have prevailed in the trial without having actually watched the entire trial, heard all the evidence, and listened to the instructions from the Judge on the law, is like commenting on who should have won the Super Bowl without having watched the game. Neither side holds any weight....its pure speculation.
Almost nothing constructive has come out of anything I've read on DU.....let's channel this anger into positive steps to prevent this in the future.
Skittles
(171,713 posts)and Trayvon had no CLUE why this armed nutcase was stalking him
TBF
(36,669 posts)he was clearly being chased by the idiotic blood-thirsty Zimmerman.
This entire case boggles the mind. He should have just stayed in his damned car.