Would it ever be possible to eliminate guns?

[Taverner]

Say we did like Australia, and have a 2-3 year buy back program whereby the government pays over market price for all guns.

During this time we outlaw all sales of guns

Once we have gotten the guns off the street, we take them away from law enforcement

Because honestly, the monopoly on guns cannot be in the hands of the Police

And I know this will ruffle some feathers, but keep telling yourself "It's just a thought experiment"

[premium]

1. Not possible,

it would take repealing the 2A, and that isn't going to happen, you would need 3/4 of the states to approve of a repeal, IOW, 13 states can defeat a repeal.

The difference between us and Australia is that we have the 2A, they don't.

[Taverner]

3. The 2A was originally set up to legalize lynch mobs

Hence, the "well regulated militia" portion

There has to be a way we can repeal it

[premium]

9. Well, good luck with trying to get it repealed,

because, like I said, the only way to do so is to convene a Constitutional Convention, get both the Senate and the House to approve it, (fat chance of that happening) then get 3/4 of the states to ratify it.

Do you honestly believe that's going to happen?

[Hoyt]

4. All you need is a Supreme Court with at least 5 Justices not as bigoted/stupid as juror B37.

[premium]

6. Uhhhh no,

the SCOTUS cannot abolish the 2A. That's civics 101 Hoyt.

[Orrex]

8. I think Hoyt's point was that a different SCOTUS might interpret the 2nd differently

They can't abolish it altogether, but they might, for example, define "a well regulated militia" as a well regulated militia, instead of a bunch of gun owners unencumbered by reasonable laws.

[premium]

12. I suppose that's posssible

but highly unlikely, SCOTUS are loathe to revisit settled law for the most part.

[Orrex]

18. Well...

Unlikely to revisit settled law that favors corporate interests, perhaps. Otherwise it's open season!

[Hoyt]

24. Thanks Orrex, you are no B37. The Supreme Court revisits decisions all the time, with slightly

different facts. In fact, they did just that in Heller and McDonald. They can do it again and adopt something more along the lines of Stevens' Dissent in Heller.

[premium]

36. Yeah, ok Hoyt.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

[Decoy of Fenris]

14. What do you think of "Planned Parenthood v. Casey", Hoyt? No snark, real question. n/t

[Ter]

20. The bigoted were the 4 who said we didn't have a right to a handgun

n/t

[premium]

23. Actually,

in McDonald v Chicago, all 9 justices ruled that the 2A is an individual right not connected to Militia service, the dissent was the level of restrictions that can be placed on the carrying of firearms.

[Ter]

50. One question

Since all 9 said it was an individual right, how can 4 possibly say Chicago has a right to ban handguns to the general public? If it's an individual right, what good is it if the individual can't get any guns?

[premium]

52. In the general public,

but not in the home.
It's all a moot point now, IL.'s new CCW law went into effect on the 9th of this month, they are now a Shall Issue state, including Chicago and Cook County.

[rl6214]

65. Why don't you comment on the other five jurors coming to the same conclusions.

[premium]

67. Because it wouldn't fit his agenda. nt.

[Shankapotomus]

11. One possible way around the 2A

is to invent an effective non-lethal defense weapon. Something that would be almost 100% at stopping an attacker. And then propose an amendment saying that a person has a right to defend oneself but not to kill.

[premium]

17. You would still need to go through these steps.

The only way to get an amendment passed is to convene a Constitutional Convention, get both the Senate and the House to approve it, (fat chance of that happening) then get 3/4 of the states to approve it.

And what about hunters? Target shooters? Sports shooters?

Do you honestly believe that's going to happen?

[Shankapotomus]

25. No I don't think it will happen

One can only conclude the founding father's were dumb at his point.

[Hoyt]

26. Those who covet guns will still want them. Think if Zman had stunned Trayvon, we'd still have

a witness to rebut Zman's version. That is not acceptable among bigots and gun lovers.

Your idea is interesting.

[Shankapotomus]

28. But I bet a lot of people

would opt for them if they were near 100% effective. Some because they truly care about people and others jusst to avoid the legal challenges that come with killing someone outright.

I would really like to see a non-lethal defense weapon compete with the gun.

[Decoy of Fenris]

34. Could always use an ion gun.

They cause extreme and debilitating pain but no direct physical dammage; they fry the nervous system for about an hour straight and until it stops it's absolute torture, but 100% non-fatal and effective. The only time they're dangerous is if the poor sod's muscles tense up too much and snap his own bones in his skin, or he suffers a massive heart attack. 100% nonlethal, and certainly a deterrent.

[Shankapotomus]

59. I ggogled it

interesting. Wouldn't you have to be real close to deliver the charge?

I wonder if an incapacitating electric charge could be delivered over a laser beam?

[Decoy of Fenris]

60. Aye, you gotta be close, but no closer than a taser.

I'd wager it scales up though, so if you were to carry a gun-sized one, you could reach out and touch someone with it.


You could always try the "Pain Gun", less pain, more incredible discomfort, but one built for personal defense purposes would be the size of a large luggage container.


See, lasers are okay, but they don't transmit electricity like that. I don't think. o.O They do focus and direct light, which in high enough quantity could burn/cauterize through a guy eventually, but then we're treading back into permanent damage.

[Shankapotomus]

61. Yea, I found it

It's called an Electrolaser:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolaser

and this forum thread suggests that "Any laser powerful enough to create a conductive path through the air would incinerate your target."

[Hoyt]

44. Right now, pepper spray works in cases like Zman. But folks attracted to gun ads like below,

won't carry pepper spray.




The odds of an incident where a gun is necessary happening are so low, that most folks who carry would likely be certified as irrational upon testing.

[rl6214]

69. And they wouldn't carry that either

[rl6214]

68. Do you even believe what comes out of your mouth?

[Hoyt]

2. I believe it was 1996 when Australia bit the bullet and passed really tough gun laws.

If the tough Aussies can accept something good for society, why can't we?

[upaloopa]

5. No Australia does not have a right to own guns

in a constitution like we do so your comparison makes no sense.

[Decoy of Fenris]

7. Honestly? Nah. No chance.

Too many fringe extremists, too many guns, too many guns that'd never get turned in, too much fear, too much paranoia, and never enough hatred for the guns themselves. In your scenario, after ten or twenty or even fifty years, you have a disarmed police force and about 50 million guns unspoken for, assuming no new ones are smuggled in or homemade. I'd put a very generous bet at 2-300 years before half of the guns in America went away with a policy like that, with diminishing returns based on increasing demand/supply to reach a plateau at about 5-10 mil unmarked, unregistered, -completely- illegal firearms, with a federally-disarmed police force. Just a prediction, no basis in fact here.

[hack89]

10. How do you stop the resulting black market?

guns are small, made all over the world and easy to smuggle.

Assuming that criminals actually turn in their guns to begin, it won't take long for them to rearm.

[Hoyt]

45. Would you buy a gun on black market if illegal, being all law-abiding and stuff?

[hack89]

48. I was thinking more about criminal gangs and such

those wonderful people in the unlicensed pharmaceutical business.

I am sure you are perfectly comfortable with drug gangs being armed - surely you can understand why many are not?

[Lizzie Poppet]

56. If all possession of guns was made illegal...

...I and literally millions of currently law-abiding gun owners would reluctantly become "criminals." Immoral laws should be broken. Civil Disobedience: the most progressive of concepts.

[Hoyt]

57. So, gun owners are law-abiding as long as they have their baby(s) and their way?

[Lizzie Poppet]

70. I reiterate: civil disobediance is a progressive concept.

It's also as old as the very concept of government. Enact a law that people find onerous, pointless, and an unethical violation of their rights, and they will violate it.

The military teaches officer candidates to avoid giving an order they know will be disobeyed.

[rl6214]

71. So all the civil disobedience over the past few days since the Zimmerman

Decision is ok, even though many of them may have been breaking the law?

[Hoyt]

75. Where's all the civil disobedience. You getting your guns ready, hoping for riots as an

excuse to shoot people?

[premium]

80. Paranoid much Hoyt?

Who here as even suggested that? Relax, take a deep breath, and have......................

[Jenoch]

13. "Once we have gotten the guns off the street..."

Without even addressing the 2Amendment issue, how exactly do you propose to 'get all the guns off the street'?

[Taverner]

30. Oh that's a different discussion altogether

I propose a generous buy back plan that pays 10-25% over market

But still, that will only take care of some of the guns

After that, it will get ugly for a while

But never say never

[hack89]

38. "it will get ugly for a while". = War on Drugs part II?

we know how the WOD I has worked out. Time to invest in private prison companies?

[Jenoch]

53. How convenient for you.

[olddots]

15. well atleast we got past carrying swords and spears

unfortunately guns are way bigger business than spear making and sword making ever were .Will there come a day when everybody doesn't want to rule the world ?

[Hoyt]

46. In many states, you can't carry a sword or spear down the street -- but a gun is fine.

When I retire and have time to spend in jail, I would love to walk down a city street with a sword or spear and watch all the gun toters grabbing their weapons. But we are supposed to smile while a Zman stands behind our kids in Chuck E Cheese.

[premium]

49. Why would so called toters grab their weapons if all you're doing is carrying

it down the street? Unless you're planning on threatening someone with it, here's what would happen, exactly nothing.

[Hoyt]

51. Because they are paranoid fools, who expect us to believe they won't reach for their weapon until

someone has the draw on them (the threat materializes).

I think most gunners touch/check their guns when they see something that meets their paranoid view of a threat (and in most cases, like Zman, that "threat" is some brown person).

[premium]

54. This is pure comedy gold.

Sounds like you're the one that's paranoid.

[rl6214]

73. When you have time to spend in jail?

So you will only break the law AFTER you retire? But I thought you always said you we law abiding? So you really aren't when it's not convenient for you.

[Hoyt]

76. Yeah, that civil disobedience - if bigots can carry guns in public, I can carry a spear.

[rl6214]

79. But I thought you said you were law abiding?

Now you're saying you're not?

[Comrade Grumpy]

16. In a perfect world, perhaps. But we don't live there.

We live in a country hip-deep in guns.

[Blue_Tires]

86. +1

[miked62916]

19. No, not possible

After all, it's very easy to make guns by yourself.

[uppityperson]

43. Hey my friend, how are you doing? Did you miss me the last couple days?

[Ter]

21. Even if you could, it would result in Civil War 2

No way would the Union win this time, either. Say hello to Confederate President Rick Perry.

[Taverner]

32. Meh, two nukes oughta stop em

(just KIDDING!)

[NightWatcher]

22. Logistically it would be impossible. We've way to many people to police for weapons.

[One_Life_To_Give]

27. Too easy to make

With the prices some people would pay for firearms. There will always be people willing to provide illicit weapons.

[valerief]

29. Sure. Shoot everyone. Problem solved! nt

[The Straight Story]

33. No, and wouldn't want to

Guns have many uses - from hunting to sport shooting (like the USA shooting team http://www.usashooting.org/ and there are quite a few girls' shooting teams, just do a google search).

Just because less than 1% of people with them misuse them does not mean we should eliminate them.

[reflection]

35. Hell you can print a gun now with a 3D printer

so I'd say absolutely not. We're too far along now.

[Blue_Tires]

37. Not really; nor should we want to...

Just come down much harder on irresponsible assclown owners...The problem is the NRA for two decades has brainwashed its base, the media and congress to the point where they embrace all owners; good, bad, and psychotic...And the NRA has always framed any legislative attempts to weed out the morons and the crazies as an attempt to grab EVERYONE'S guns...

Sadly, once upon a time the NRA was about education, high standards, and proud, responsible owners...Now it's all about black helicopter paranoia, Kenyan presidents and scaring the public to buy as many guns+ammo as they can afford...

[premium]

40. +1000. nt.

[GreenStormCloud]

81. If not the NRA, then there would be another group that would be just as large.

Here are some other pro-gun groups. Some of them consider the NRA as a bunch of compromisers. Some of them are fairly large. If the NRA didn't exist, gun owners would have flocked to one of these groups.

Second Amendment Foundation
Gun Owners of America (“The only no compromise gun lobby in Washington” That’s what they call themselves.)
Gun Owner’s Action League
Second Amendment Police Department (Cops who are pro-RKBA)
National Association of Gun Rights
Students for Concealed Carry
Students for Second Amendment
Constitutional Rights Enforcement & Support Team
Second Amendment Sisters
Pink Pistols (Armed gays don’t get bashed.)
Armed Females of America (They want to repeal ALL gun laws including NFA 1934)
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (They are a “never again” group)
Liberty Belles
Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws (Note: Not same organization as above but both have the same purpose. Strongly pro-gun)
Citizen's Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms
Mothers Arms
The Paul Revere Network
NRAWOL (They think the NRA is AWOL in the fight for gun rights.)
Independent Firearms Owners Association
The Liberal Gun Club

[Blue_Tires]

82. I remember early in the case Zim's lawyer and brother were hailed as heroes

and gave standing O speeches at one of the RW nutbar groups...

[hughee99]

39. No.

How's the effort to eliminate drugs going? If there's something people want, they'll get it. If they have the technology to make it themselves, how can you stop them? I'm not sure it's even possible to make them 100% illegal, but even if you could do that, it wouldn't eliminate them any more than illegal drugs have been eliminated.

[Motown_Johnny]

41. When we create something more deadly and easier to use

then sure, we can start to eliminate guns at that point.

Until then, not a chance.

[sarisataka]

42. Well since it is a thought experiment...

We can take as given:
-the 2 A is repealed or avoided in some fashion
-we have a 99% successful buyback program
-police adopt a system where guns are available to supervisors and in special situations

It is likely:
a) armed criminals will turn to knives and blunt objects, favoring a strong attacker over a weak defender
-not too different than our current status
b) the tendency of guns to travel from the US to Mexico will reverse
-given the more robust economy, the US would pay higher black market prices than Mexico.
-as they already have a distribution network in place, is can be assumed the cartels will rapidly monopolize the illegal arms trade to the US
-unlike countries such as Australia, UK and Japan, we are not an island. We have two long porous borders for direct access and several less than fully secure island nations near by for indirect access
c)there will be impetus to develop more effective non-lethal weaponry
-many people may choose to obtain such for self defense
--while it can be assumed more would do so than choose to carry guns now, it can be assumed it will remain a small percentage
-like guns, non lethal weapons can be used offensively
--non lethal weapons actually make some crimes e.g. kidnapping and rape, easier for the attacker than guns
d)while guns are fairly easily manufactured the average criminal lacks the skills to do so
-the most probable manufacturers of guns would be organized groups with a clear agenda
--most organized crime groups would go to the black market. Those choosing to make their own would likely be biker gangs, hate groups and the so called militias.
e)criminals would loose much of their fear of police in direct confrontations


Expected results
-major drop in gun related deaths paralleled by a overall, but significantly lesser, drop in total homicide
-drop in gun related crime at approximately the same rate as overall homicide decrease
-increase in homicide by means other than firearms
-increase in armed robbery, hot burglary, assault and rape- increases will range from slight to moderate
-increase in importation of illegal guns and drugs (if you are sending one, why not fill out the shipment?)
-increase of injury and death to police officers (this will likely be short lived once scores are settled)
-environmental issues from uncontrolled animal populations due to lack of hunting (we must assume the elimination of all guns or the exercise is pointless)
-the debate will still not end (some will say we need more government control others will want all controls removed)

[rrneck]

47. Nope. Americans like 'em too much. nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

55. I have no interest in doing so.

Taking the gun out of the hands of a statistically-typical violent criminal (that is, a young-ish, reasonably fit male) does very little to make me (at 5/3", 109lbs) safer. If he wants to do me harm, his bare hands will suffice, unless I can outrun him. Disarming me, on the other hand, removes the best chance I have of successfully fighting back.

No thanks.

[MicaelS]

58. Never.

If you think that TPTB will EVER let those that guard them be disarmed you are living in a total, utter and complete fantasy world.

Do you think the USSS is going to want to disarm in the face of the all the threats directed at POTUS plus other Federal Officials?

Do you think the mayors of major cities like NYC, Chicago, L.A. , D.C will tolerate having unarmed bodyguards?

Even if you disarmed the average cop-on the street, there is still going to be some upper level of cops that will have access to firearms just like in the UK with their "Armed Police" concept.

And the wealthy and powerful who are NOT in politics will always make sure that exceptions are written into law that will let them have armed bodyguards.

All you would end up doing is disarming the average person, which of course is the ultimate goal of the Gun Prohibitionist Movement.

[Egalitarian Thug]

62. That's the only plan that would work and that I would whole heartedly support.

Disarming the citizens and leaving the 1% enforcer thugs armed would be a disaster. The cops could keep a special armed unit to deal with extraordinary incidents, but the police must be disarmed and go back to policing.

[Taverner]

63. Agree 100%

As Bakunin said, the state should not have a monopoly on violence

[rl6214]

64. "Once we have gotten all the guns off the street"

[Taverner]

66. Like I said, this should be its own discussion, but as long as we're there...

Have a huge buyback program.

Have the states buy back the guns at 25% above market price, no questions asked

Yes, people will steal others' guns to sell them

This is a good thing

Over time, the only guns seen on the street will be homemade

[premium]

72. You still fail to get past that pesky 2A.

And you can't shut down the firearms stores, courts would jump all over that and rule it unconstitutional, and even if somehow the gun stores were closed, a huge black market would spring up overnight and supply those that want guns, it's that whole supply and demand thing.

Fact is that firearms will never be eliminated in the U.S.

[Taverner]

74. Oh that will definitely need an amendment, one that I don't see getting passed this century

But remember: this is just a thought experiment

[premium]

77. And I do appreciate this thread,

it's fun doing thought experiment, I really enjoy thinking about what if's.
And, so far, it's been very civil.

[MicaelS]

84. If every gun in this country was somehow magically destroyed..

And no new ones were every built, then people who wanted to hurt others would return to edged weapons. And the same exact people crying about guns would be crying about knives. Just like they did in the "switchblade" moral panic of the 50s and the 60s.

That is MY "thought experiment."

Some people simply refuse to accept the fact that it isn't guns or knives or clubs or whatever weapon is available that is the problem. It is bad, and yes EVIL, people that are the problem. People who want to hurt others with anything that comes to hand, including their fists.

It's much easier to blame and condemn an inanimate object, rather than accept the fact that all human beings are not inherently good and who just happen to be corrupted by a brainless, heartless, soulless object.

[Taverner]

85. But, as Eddie Izzard brilliantly pointed out: Just standing there and going "bang" doesn't work

To the "guns don't kill people; people do"

[rl6214]

78. And the criminals and major drug dealers will sell theirs back for a

25% profit instead of using them for control and to threaten with in their million dollar drug organizations?


Like I said

[GreenStormCloud]

83. you can't uninvent guns.

They have been around for hundreds of years. The first revolver dates to 1835, that's 178 years ago. The M1911A1 pattern semi-auto pistol dates to 1928, that's 85 years ago. Guns are not cutting edge technology. Some guns, such as the WWII Sten gun were designed to be made in bicycle shops.

Uncerground shops to make guns and ammo will spring up.