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[paulbibeau]

This message was self-deleted by its author (paulbibeau) on Fri Dec 11, 2015, 04:14 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Decoy of Fenris]

1. Oddly, something like that happened to me in the suburbs of Boston.

I was fairly certain he was packing heat, given the side bulge, but he was quite pleasant and I didn't/don't care much. He wasn't as strong in the way of hyperbole, though.

Told him I was new in the area, we went to the local coffee shop and had some cinnamon Chai tea, and he drove me home afterwards. -that- was the weirdest bit; I'm a 6'4" grown man, was then, too, and my house was only a block a way. But eh, whatever. Kindness of strangers.

[TxDemChem]

2. It's that sort of situation that would freak me out

After the GZ verdict, I would be afraid to turn my back and walk away. It's not right.

[louis-t]

3. I can't imagine Z saying ANY of this.

And he could have stopped after the second line.

[apples and oranges]

4. You would have lost me at the "Do you have ID" part,

and the proposed follow up, "No, you don't have to answer that" only makes it worse because now you seem creepy and possibly crazy. JMHO

[SomethingFishy]

21. "Papers Please"

It seems that the writer thinks that the old fascist "papers please", is a solution to "crime" as long as you say it nicely.

Unless it's sarcasm.. I really can't tell anymore. How screwed up is that...

[Iggo]

29. Yep. First name Up. Last name Yours.

[Arkansas Granny]

5. No one to answer to. Nothing but this scanner, a cell phone, and a 9mm handgun for company.

That says it all. Sooner or later, this man was going to hurt someone. It was just a matter of time.

And now, he gets his gun back.

[Rex]

6. So 7pm is 'out this late'?

You are trying here and I appreciate the meaning of the thread, BUT Zimmerman was out looking for a fight. Had nothing to do with protecting the neighbors.

[yardwork]

15. Thank you for pointing out that it was 7 pm

The juror who talked with Anderson Cooper still thinks that this happened in the middle of the night. We need to keep repeating that Trayvon was killed at 7:15 m on a Sunday evening.

[Rex]

18. And as someone else pointed out, who robs houses

on a Sunday at 7pm? Everyone is home!

I'm just getting tired of all the lies being thrown around and we owe Martin as much to point these things out imo. Just like the bullshit of Zimmerman being a 'neighborhood watch Capitan'. We owe it to that innocent young man, even if it is 10 years from now. We should still be pointing these obvious lies out.

[yardwork]

20. Everyone WAS home.

They were all watching TV and finishing dinner. There was absolutely no need for Zimmerman to be "protecting" anybody then. No reason for him to be afraid of anything. Who is afraid of a teenager at 7 pm on a Sunday evening? Only people who are predisposed to be afraid of all black people, eg, racists.

[Rex]

23. I agree completely, Zimmerman was riding around in his car

with that big badass GUN of his all ready to be used on someone.

He sees a kid and instantly goes about profiling him, until his pea size brain starts to panic and scream, "gangster, gangster!" at which time he loses his rational train of thought and calls the cops and starts to enter 'stalker' mode. The dispatch even tries to discourage him, but Zimmerman already has his fantasia playing along in this brain like a sad Charles Bronson movie. IMHO, no matter what Martin would have done, Zimmerman was going to a) have him restrained and b) have him helpless by the time the cops arrived...maybe in some fashion and in his mind it would lead to some kind of hero worship by the cops and the locals. At least in his already lost mind.

Of course everything that could have gone wrong does...because Zimmerman is NOT a cop and has no respect for the law.

That is how I see it.

[yardwork]

24. I agree with everything but the part about Z losing his rational thought.

Zimmerman didn't have any rational thought to begin with. He was a ticking time bomb.

[Rex]

41. True, I guess I should restate that as

Any and all rational thought was gone in his head by the time he started riding around in the car looking for criminals. There was absolutely no reason for him to get out of his car. None.

[zappaman]

34. Obviously

something is rotten in Denmark.

[Rex]

80. Something is rotten in the verdict.

[anneboleyn]

7. As a woman,fair or not, my thoughts would be "I need to escape immediately"

As situations like this generally do not turn out well.

[uppityperson]

8. I rec'd as assuming you are mocking Zimmy. If in support, unrec and wtf. 7 pm is "this late"?

The writing sounds like a busybody pushing limits, trying to over control people and have his own Kingdom.

[paulbibeau]

9. Who said this guy was actually Zimmerman?

This is a man, with a gun, who has some questions for you.

Does he resemble Zimmerman in some ways? Maybe.

Does he seem to feel encouraged in his efforts? Possibly by recent events? Perhaps.

But this guy could be anywhere. He could be in your neighborhood. Tonight. Keeping you safe. Sort of.

[Spazito]

10. What right does the person in your OP have to ask for ID at all?

He is a stranger with a gun, that's it. Creepy, creepy stranger, imo.

[paulbibeau]

11. I know. A lot of them out there.

[Spazito]

13. Yes, all too many Zimmerman/wannabe cop types to be sure n/t

[Decoy of Fenris]

12. Every right to ask, no right to enforce or demand, I'd wager. n/t

[Spazito]

14. So you would have no trouble with a stranger coming up to you with a gun and

asking for your ID? You would find that quite normal?

[Decoy of Fenris]

17. Gun on hip? Nah. Gun in hand? A little.

If he's coming up to me, he's voluntarily approaching within melee range and eliminating every benefit to a firearm, in addition to exposing himself to potential retribution. He's either incredibly inept at threatening with a gun, or he's going to try to pistol whip me. Either way, if he's that close already, whatever he's going to do is gonna get done, so why worry?

[Spazito]

19. I'm surprised....

unless you would expect to be carrying as well of course.

[Decoy of Fenris]

22. Nah, I don't carry. I prefer, if defending myself, to do so with my fists or blade.

I may fear the afterlife more than anything, but if it's going to happen, it's going to happen on my terms and with a battlecry in my throat, honor on my conscience and love in my soul. Maybe a bit of righteous vengeance at the end, but that's okay at that point. :0

[Spazito]

26. okay, I go with that...

for me, a stranger comes up to me carrying a gun, whether it be in his/her waistband or in their hand, asking for ID without any official authority to do so, that is creepy, very creepy.

The very act of asking for ID without any official authority to do so is creepy, add the gun it goes to creepy and scary.

Edited to add: Would you provide ID to this stranger, ID that most likely would have your home address, etc? If not how would you handle denying their request given they have a gun somewhere be it either in their hand or on their body?

[Decoy of Fenris]

31. But that's not really the picture your OP painted, is it?

In your OP, I may think the guy's a little weird, but I would come to the conclusion that he's either an overzealous parent or just a guy who -really- needs a hobby. However, if some stranger walked up to me, not saying a word, gun -out-, eyes locked on mine and making it very clear that I was a target? That's another story.

But that's not the OP.

[Spazito]

32. To me, that is exactly what the OP painted at the point they had the stranger with a gun asking...

for ID.

I edited my post above as a couple of questions occurred to me after I posted it, sorry about that.

[Decoy of Fenris]

35. See, I don't see that guy as you intended him to be.

But I see the world differently, so it may just be a problem with me; an option I'm not unwilling to discount.


In regards to ID? Aye, I'd show it to them from a distance, but if they reached, I'd explain that I'd rather not. At that point, I'd concede that we may have a crisis, wherein I'd attempt to diffuse the situation with the following line (It's worked twice thus far

"Unless my life is on the line, I'd rather not. Is it?" and "Here's my ID, sir. Anything else I can get you?" if diplomacy fails.

[Spazito]

37. Okay, I am truly agape at this point...

I would not hand over my ID to anyone other than someone authorized to ask for it and certainly not to a stranger who feels they have the right to ask for it, no way. Add the gun to it and it makes it even more important I do NOT hand over ID.

I know your position of SYG, gun ownership, issues that surround the right to protect oneself so to read that you would have no compunction about providing that ID to a complete stranger with no authority to ask for it seems astonishingly contradictory to me.

[Decoy of Fenris]

43. I'm not certain you do know. At least, about some of the things in pertinence to me.

But before we get into that, my apologies! I didn't mean to falsely indicate that you were the OP, and I was indeed confused. I offer my humblest apologies to you, I did mean no offense.


I do believe in the absolute right to defend yourself at any cost or circumstance, yes. Likewise, my license, my debit card, my ... credit cards, if I had any... They aren't worth my life, so what do I care if this scumbag decides to take my ID and run? Great, he knows where I live; he'd learn that anyways if he just followed me home, which he'd do, if he had a dedicated reason or desire to find out where I rested my head.


What am I going to do, point at him, say "No, you have to go back to the pack" and shoo him away? Scream "I know my rights, you can't demand shit of me"? I'd just get shot if he's unhinged, and I'd make an ass of myself for no reason if I wasn't, and in either case, I'd gain nothing but further headaches.

[Spazito]

48. Your posts over time have, I think, given me a fair sense of where you stand on the issues...

at least enough of a sense to be astonished at your willingness to simply hand over your ID to anyone who asks astonishing.

I appreciate your apology.

Edited to take out a stray phrase that made no sense.

[Decoy of Fenris]

51. I'll make it simple for you; I honestly just don't care.

You want to ask me for my ID? You have every right to ask, but I am under no obligation to answer. If my life is clearly threatened if I don't comply, then what do I serve to gain by objection on the spot? If my life -isn't- threatened, why would I show you my ID?

The choice presented is a "morally" inescapable one, given that the only two choices are "Resist" or "Suffer". I don't normally trend towards binary choices, especially choices based on arbitrary morality, and alter my reaction based on the situation at hand given the input I'd currently received in a manner that suits my personal best interests.

[Spazito]

52. Ok n/t

[Decoy of Fenris]

53. By the way, the "I don't care" wasn't at you; just a general statement.

You, I rather like.

ON EDIT FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION: "I don't really care" about much. I don't let anything really bother me. Martin's death is the first thing in a long while that managed to start niggling it's way under my skin simply due to the overarching injustice brought about by prosecutorial ignorance.

[Spazito]

55. LOL, we do seem to hold quite different views on some issues yet are able to debate...

without rancor, I appreciate that and have come to find I like you as well. I have little doubt we will be on opposite sides of issues at times and I will try and keep it civil, can't promise no snark though, lol.

[Decoy of Fenris]

58. Here, let me give you a bit of a leg-up on me, for whenever we next debate.

I've no doubt you and I will be at odds many times in the future. I'm used to that though, and you seem to have a kind soul.


My point of view is that whatever I do, as an individual, does not matter unless it directly positively affects humanity in a meaningful way that will endure beyond me after I die. Every day that I wake up, I take steps to secure a legacy for myself through actions that I would qualify as meaningful and beneficial to humanity. Did I get out and protest for justice for Trayvon? Admittedly no, nor did I join the ranks of the Z squad, because that one case means nothing in my view; what -results- from that case is what is important to me. The precedent set by releasing Z upon the populace without a preponderance of evidence is disturbing to say the least, and that is why I have picked up and dusted off the old "Activist" banner and begun my own personal campaign. I see several possible negatives stemming from this result:

The deterioration of intra-human racial relations negatively affecting the whole,
A dangerous precedent of state-sponsored murder barring extraordinary proof to the contrary, and
The admittedly small chance that the government may act to restrict defensive means, AKA firearms, since they are most common.


None of these things, as either an idea or an ideal is a -good- thing in the long run, and thus I act to minimize the damage and maximize potential beneficial attributes, such as shoring up self-defense while simultaneously attempting to reform it so that it is not an open license to murder, so long as no one sees you and the state can't prove your guilt.

The long view that I hold extends beyond me, my children or my children's children, to the expansion of humanity as a race, not as individual peoples or countries. While other people fight for fleeting causes, I fight for ideas that will last millennia. Accordingly, I pick my battles rarely, and carefully.

[Spazito]

61. We are not that unalike it seems...

I hold many of the same views, my aim is to go through life, as long as I have it, to help and not harm, realize how fortunate I am not to have the struggles others do through no fault of their own and to work, in any way I can, to contribute to positive change, especially in the area of continued inequity and discrimination.

I do take up fleeting causes at times because I believe although they may be fleeting it doesn't mean to me they are unimportant. Sometimes change can happen more readily with the fleeting causes that turn out to be part of the bigger, greater causes.

It has been interesting and educational to 'chat' with you, I have come away from it with a better understanding of where you are coming from and I appreciate your sharing that with me. Thank you.

[Decoy of Fenris]

62. It is my honor and pleasure. PM me at any time if the whim strikes you.

I can talk about most anything; I'm passably intelligent about almost anything, but a master of nothing, so I am always seeking to learn new things from friendly new people. Likewise, it is always both pleasant and a surprise to meet others of (roughly) the same mindset as I, and I welcome such occasions with open arms.


Until we next meet, Spaz, may you find what you seek. Peace to you.

[Spazito]

65. Peace to you as well...

Just a heads up re PMs, I choose not to send them, it makes life on DU simpler if I say what I want to say through posts, I genuinely appreciate the offer though.

[Decoy of Fenris]

67. So shall it be, and it will be respected and understood unconditionally. n/t

[Spazito]

70. Thank you! n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. It's not Spazito's OP (nt)

[Decoy of Fenris]

44. You're right, and I have apologized accordingly. Thank you. n/t

[Katashi_itto]

47. If someone comes up to me without identifying they are a police office asking who i was

In the post-Zimmerman world, I would think I would likely attack.

Forcefully, without mercy.

My sensei was even asked what to do now. He had no answer.

The rules of civility have been breached.

[Decoy of Fenris]

50. Then you're only perpetuating a cycle of gun violence.

It just took you longer to realize what a chunk of the rest of the world did a long time ago; humanity is ugly. You would provoke a fight, -encourage- it, simply based on an assumption of malicious intent based on appearances.

I'm not saying you're entirely in the wrong, by the way. Just pointing that out.

[Katashi_itto]

56. Yup I agree. No it didn't take me longer to realize anything. I am very well-traveled

I was just relying on the rules of decorum that somewhat exist in the US

However that doesn't stop the fact the OP posits that I am in a situation with a potential killer.

I simply prefer to be the last one standing.

[Decoy of Fenris]

59. Understood, given that you understand that everyone's a potential killer.

Especially if you know that prompt medical attention will save you from any number of gunshot wounds about 85% of the time.

Let me ask you something. In mentioning that you prefer to be the last one standing, do you have limits? Are there those you would not strike down preemptively, based on a specific set of circumstances?

[Katashi_itto]

63. Your joking right? It's all dependent on the situation. There is no one set rule to judge

everything on.

Frankly out and about, here in New Orleans, I have my cellphone set to dial 911 on speed dial.

Personally i figure that is the first best thing a person can do.

As for fighting the best you can hope for in a potential life threatening situation that you exercise reasonable judgement and have a bit of luck on your side.

But, If it comes to a fight,

Rule one: Attack first

Two: Only Strike High Value Targets the parts of the body which cause extreme pain, distract your attacker, or cripple or kill him.

These are things like the eyes, ears, throat, groin, knees, and nose. You don't bother wasting your time or energy with body shots unless no other target is open. Having a target focused mindset (where to hit him) as opposed to a technique focused mindset (how do I hit him) is the most crucial street fighting tactic out there, aside from hitting first (but even then you need to know where to hit)

Like I said luck helps too.

Most importantly is maintaining a Zanshin awareness, so that you can avoid a potential bad situation.

[Decoy of Fenris]

64. And the man you'd so casually beat is no different in a vaccuum.

I agree with you on almost all of the combat points, but I prefer to..

Rule One: Parry/riposte first, using the riposte to incapacitate.

Rule Two: If target is not completely incapacitated, incapacitate. Repeat as needed.


You're preaching to the choir on the combat, mate. I was... erm... lecturing some DUers about the fundamental flaw in insisting that just because someone is heavier does -not- mean they are guaranteed victory by any stretch. You'd be surprised how many people around here think that size is everything.

[Katashi_itto]

68. I never beat anyone "casually" it's always been with the utmost regret

[Decoy of Fenris]

69. I'm going to quote you, okay? We're talking about a theoretical person.

"If someone comes up to me without identifying they are a police office asking who i was In the post-Zimmerman world, I would think I would likely attack. "

That's where I was coming from in regards to "Casually."

[Katashi_itto]

71. Still not sure where your going, there is still nothing casual about that

A guy waving a pistol about is not a casual thing. That's a threat.

[Decoy of Fenris]

73. I replied to myself accidentally. Please look one post below. :)

[Decoy of Fenris]

72. Ah, see, there's our misunderstanding:

"If someone comes up to me without identifying they are a police office asking who i was

In the post-Zimmerman world, I would think I would likely attack. "


No mention of a gun, therefore, I did not assume there was one.

[Katashi_itto]

74. See the OP title, I thought it was evident

[Decoy of Fenris]

75. I tend to go post by post. It gets rather bad for me if it's not linear. n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

77. Not a bad philosophy on combat, ESPECIALLY the part....

about having a "target focused mindset". The only thing I would add to this is, against a weapon, ANY weapon, to "defang the snake". If possible, disable the weapon hand or deprive the attacker of his weapon.

Of course, target focused mindset is the essence of counterfighting. Any attack leaves the attacker open somewhere. The best can find that opening and attack it at the same time.

[Katashi_itto]

81. Kendo tends to be all about that

[socialist_n_TN]

57. I can relate. I've spent 30+ years learning graduated response....

and that's all gone with this verdict.

Another thing. If I do wind up in a confrontation, and I wouldn't be the one starting it-never have, never will, I'm afraid I'm going to have to go for the more deadly techniques in the arsenal now too. I'm not going to feel comfortable until the opponent is motionless. Whether that's dead, unconscious, or immobilized from broken bones, doesn't matter as long as he is motionless.

[Decoy of Fenris]

60. That's a good thing, if you'd forgive my intrusion.

Your body -is- a deadly weapon. Treat it as such, and you will never abuse it. Only once have I had to use my personal training, and I didn't start the fight, but Gods help me did I finish it. I would rather not be put into that situation again; too much power.

[socialist_n_TN]

76. Well see that the problem with this verdict....

In the past, using graduated response, I'd just use enough force to defuse the situation and then go on my merry way. Now, I feel like I don't have that choice anymore. Even if somebody STARTS shit with me (physical, not verbal), I don't feel like I can just defuse the situation, I feel like I have to actually immobilize my opponent one way or another. BECAUSE EVEN IF HE STARTS IT AND I'M WINNING IT, HE CAN SHOOT ME IF HE THINKS HE'S IN "DANGER". There's no leeway anymore.

It's some fucked up shit.

Edited to add: I've always had a lot of control over myself. I would never use too much force than is called for in a situation. At least that's the way it was before.

[Katashi_itto]

66. Agreed, decorum is going the way of the Dodo

[yardwork]

25. A little????!!!!

You would only be a "little" concerned if a stranger stopped you, gun in hand?

[Decoy of Fenris]

27. Um... Yeah. I have respect for guns, but I don't fear them. Don't get me going on spiders, though.

I just can't get worked up about guns, mate. Lost three close people to suicide and gun violence, and I just... Eh. Things happen. Can't get worked up. Why would I care if some random guy walks up to me with a gun?

[yardwork]

30. Most people would feel differently.

[Decoy of Fenris]

33. I know. I'm aberrant that way, but eh, it is what it is.

A holstered gun is only a threat to the person's hip/leg/foot. A gun fired one-handed from the hip is inaccurate and will strike no immediately fatal organs -if- it hits, possibly damaging the liver a worst, while kicking up at probably smacking the shooter in the fact; a better bet is that his aim would be off and he'd miss as he got closer/walked faster.

Get a guy who's walking down the street, gun out and raised or in both hands, eyes locked on mine with a clear intent to kill? Then I'll start worrying. Until then, he's not a real threat.

[yardwork]

36. Zimmerman killed Trayvon.

How did he do that? Two hands?

[Decoy of Fenris]

40. Like this:

Approaching swiftly with one hand half behind his back, stiffarmed, and when he got to within point-blank range and having engaged Martin in dialogue, arm comes up at a slightly upwards angle (2-4 degrees from 90) to expose the gun; Martin tries to back away, hands out to either side at right angles parallel to the body and leaning backwards as he attempts to retreat. Zimmerman, not needing to aim and not under duress, extends the arm, Martin begins crying for help, gun now within two feet of Martin's chest, fires, the gun kicking back and "grazing" the side of his nose, enough to cause a nosebleed. Martin falls back, as he's fallling at an acute angle to the sidewalk(Remember, he's not dead yet), rolls over in pain and onto the grass before settling as internal hemorrhaging and expanded abdominal cavity absorb most of the body's blood, causing cranial swelling and a buildup of cranial fluids. Martin's pupils stay dilated for slightly-above-average reaction size for rapid surprise and fear and will not dilate further until after the autopsy, indicating no prolonged state of fight-or-flight or recognition of imminent or life-threatening danger.

Please note: A panicked or fearful man does not fire only one shot, especially if he does not know if he hit the target.

Zimmerman, bleeding from the nose, quickly establishes (or uses a prior thought process for) a cover story; note his left hand's index finger, having a longer than normal fingernail, and the positioning of the vertical scratch on the back of his head; Exactly where his middle or index finger would fall, depending on how he was using his own skull as leverage to scratch himself up. The right hand, being blunter, did not allow for a cut, so he may have gouged the upper left wound; consistent with a back and forth sawing, coupled with a lateral tear on the laceration to allow for a greater blood flow.

However, Zimmerman's blood flow was not consistent with one of his blood pressure or heart rate, nor of a man engaged in strenuous flight-or-fight activity, and the pictures taken at the scene of the crime indicate through pupil dilation that Zimmerman had not engaged in a fight/flight activity.

I'm leaving out a few details, but they only contribute to this story, and I doubt you want a dissertation.

Long story short: Zimmerman loads up, never puts his gun in it's holster, hunts Martin, approaches under false pretense and murders in cold blood at point blank range.

[yardwork]

42. That's what I thought. Thank you.

Too bad that the prosecution didn't mention this.

I knew that Zimmerman's story that he pulled his gun from behind his back while Trayvon was on top of him had to be a lie.

Some if those witnesses lied too.

[Decoy of Fenris]

45. People see what they want to see; an eyewitness is no more unbiased than hearsay, individually.

Honestly, after analyzing the 911 call, I'd say that Zimmerman was reloading and chambering while still in his vehicle; play two audio samples after isolating the metallic clicking in the back of the 911 call, and the stock sound of a weapon of Z's type reloading sounds almost identical when slowed down slightly.

[exboyfil]

38. How about a 17 year old boy who has been instructed in

stranger danger (heck I just watched a video of a martial arts instructor teaching his young charges to kick for the lower region). This is at night, in a strange neighborhood, the creepy guy has been watching you from his SUV, and he is now trying to follow you and possibly more.

[Decoy of Fenris]

46. How about 'em? I haven't been 17 in a decade. n/t

[otohara]

16. Stay Away From My Hood

Take your gun and go home where we will all be safer. I would call the cops on you.

[One_Life_To_Give]

28. I get the concerned homeowner

In smaller tight knit neighborhoods, where Mrs. Smith will have already called your mother about what you did to her garden before you can make it home. A stranger or strange car stands out. Just as a neighbor leaving the wrong lite on or off. People will ask why, either directly or via Police.

Z crossed a line but it wasn't by observing, reporting or even questioning strangers necessarily. As Treyvon began to fear for his personal safety Z had crossed a line. Being Human it's a gray area exactly where the line is. A 14yr old girl requires more distance/leeway than a 30yr old man. Still there was no reason for Z to be within 100ft of Treyvon even if he was tailing him.

[Demo_Chris]

49. Very nicely written! nt

[JI7]

54. the guy in the OP sounds like some fucked up creeper

really ID ?

[Poll_Blind]

78. Buddy, I tell you what: That's one of the scariest short stories I've ever read.

No foolin', no bullshit. Exceedingly well-written. IMO, you could have submitted that story to a horror magazine 10 years ago and they would have snapped it up, just the way it is.



PB

[paulbibeau]

79. Thanks!

I write stuff like this occasionally. If you're interested, there's a piece titled:

"Hi There."
http://paulbibeau.blogspot.com/2011/10/hi-there.html#.UeXj9hXD8cA