I tried to convince a friend such a thing as "White Privilege" existed

[Taverner]

Why do I have to explain this to every body over and over again?

Yes, there is a system of white, male, privilege in this country.

I am not going to hash it out, instead I will let a much more intelligent man do it for me, Tim Wise:

[Lifelong Protester]

1. "Embedding disabled by request" pops up

[Taverner]

2. Follow it... it's worth it

[Donald Ian Rankin]

3. "White advantage" certainly exists; "non-white disprivilege" is probably a better way to describe it

It is certainly the case that white people are, on average (and never, ever leave out the "on average", because without that qualifier nearly all these statements become false), advantaged compared to non-white people in a large number of ways.

You can describe that as either "white privilege" or "non-white disprivilege", and be technically accurate.

But I think that, for two reasons, the latter term probably gives a clearer understanding of the situation.

Firstly, the majority of the population are white. The word "privilege" generally implies something a minority have and the majority don't.

Secondly, white people are no better off than they would be if the whole population were the same colour as them, whereas non-white people are worse off than they would be if the whole population was the same colour as them. "Privilege" and "disprivilege" both usually imply difference from a baseline, and in this case I think it's fairly clearly "not being discriminated against because of the colour of your skin" that is the baseline.

So while I certainly wouldn't argue that white privilege doesn't exist, I don't think it's the best choice of term for the phenomenon it describes.

[Taverner]

4. OK take a black person and a white person and give them each a Ferrari

Have them both obey the laws to a tee

The black person WILL (and this is documented in study after study) get pulled over more

[Donald Ian Rankin]

8. Yes. N.T.

The point I was making, though, is that in a non-racist society, I think everyone would be pulled over at the rate white drivers currently are, not at the rate black drivers currently are or even at an average.

[AverageJoe90]

5. Agreed 100%.

The .1% don't give a shit about those of us white folks in the other 99.9%....but they sure as hell don't look down on us nearly as much as everyone else, though.

[ananda]

35. What they do is use the whites at the lower rung ..

.. by fueling their hates and phobias and giving them something
to try to feel superior to.

[Taverner]

9. Isn't that creative wordsmithing?

Its not killed by their own troops, it's "friendly fire"
Its not union killing legislation, its "right to work"
Its not anti-abortion, its "pro life"

It is a privilege and I think changing terms sanitizes it and makes it sound OK, when it is not

[Donald Ian Rankin]

13. You're against "creative wordsmithing"?

You list three examples of terms which arguably give *less clear* descriptions of their subjects, and use this as an argument against adopting a term which gives a *clearer* description. I don't think that's logical.

I also don't think that "non-white disprivilege" is any more sanitised than "white privilege"; I don't think that the addition of two negatives makes it sound any more OK and I do think that it makes it a lot clearer what's going on.

[Taverner]

37. I don't know, too many negatives in that word

Kind of like the we aren't not gonna don't do nothing club

[Donald Ian Rankin]

40. I agree "disprivilege" is inelegant, but synonyms don't make the point so clear.

If it weren't that the standard phrase is "white privilege", I'd use a phrase like "non-white disadvantage" - or, hey, just "racial discrimination".

The point, though, is that the effect of discrimination against a small minority is that its victims are worse off, but that people who are not the victims of it do not benefit from it (the word "small" there is significant, incidentally - if 50% of the populace were slaves the rest might well benefit from that; c.f. "gender roles"...).

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

45. Or maybe 'white advantage'?

Versus privelage

[Donald Ian Rankin]

48. I think the same arguments against apply.

Racial discrimination *isn't* to the advantage of whites, only to the disadvantage of non-whites.

[Orrex]

6. In conversations on the subject, I've found it helpful...

to withhold the phrase "white privilege" until later in the discussion, and I avoid the use of "privilege checklists" to the extent possible.

If you open with the straightforward term, it immediately engages the other person's defenses, and it becomes considerably harder to get the point across because the person gets hung up on the idea of "privilege."

I have found it more fruitful to recount examples from my own experience where my "white privilege" has benefited me (in dealing with cops, in customer service, in reactions on a crowded bus, etc.), thereafter observing how these experiences might have been different if I were a person of color. Eventually, after describing the overall phenomenon, I can identify it by name.


One's mileage may vary, but I know that I resisted the notion of "privilege" when it was first presented to me, because it was presented in a way that made it seem (to me) like a personal and deliberate behavior on my part. In my case, a more general explanation-by-example would likely have met less resistance.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

21. Has it benefited you?

I'm quite prepared to believe that you'd have been treated differently if you weren't white.

But I suspect that if there were no racism, everybody would be treated the way white people are.

If that's so, it's probably less accurate to say that being white benefits people than that that being non-white disadvantages them.

[Orrex]

29. Then it's the benefit of not being disadvantaged in that way

Honestly, I find the distinction to be largely academic and speculative, since we don't have a non-racist society to use as an example. I also see no reason to assume that everybody would be treated the way that white people are.

Even in a non-racist society, it seems likely that we would establish privileged groups, and these groups would enjoy benefits that other groups do not.

[apnu]

42. That's because of white guilt and white fear.

(Full disclosure, I'm white and male and in my 40s).

White people get uncomfortable talking about this stuff. Namely because they feel guilty about the racial situation in America. They feel bad that what's happened has happened, but they feel its not their fault that slavery happened. But this misses the point entirely. And they're afraid that America's color is changing and they know they've sat on the top of the heap for a long time and they know whites have been pretty shitty to everybody else and they fear that whomever rises to the top (probably latinos) are going to enact revenge on us. White people are paranoid and freaked out.

But then, who isn't these days?

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. There is a system of white privilege. There is no system of male privilege.

Trayvon was suspicious because he was a black. He was shot because he was male.

[Taverner]

10. Male privilege is a different beast

As a male, you can go out in short shorts, and no shirt, and not have to worry about being raped. In addition, if you were raped, no one would say you were "asking for it" by dressing that way.

I could go on, but my fingers are tired.

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. True enough. Trayvon didn't have to worry overmuch about being raped.

Let's ask him if he finds that comforting.

[Taverner]

12. I know...

What's sad is that I'm arguing this with folks who should know better, but still think Trayvon was the aggressor.

Shit, you start following someone at night, you are LOOKING for a confrontation. Just because he stopped for a second doesn't mean he wasn't trying to start something.

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. As an exercise, let's suppose for the moment that maybe the victim did "try to start something"

If Tanisha Martin had turned, screamed at, grabbed, slapped and punched Zimmerman would he have shot her? Would an all woman jury have convicted him?

Men are 11X more likely to go to jail than women. Blacks are 6X more likely to go to jail than whites. Black men in prison are mostly there because they are men.

Arguably the ultimate kind of privilege is the kind that culture savagely protects.

[Taverner]

22. Yes

That's why by far, women are chosen as the drug mule of choice

I knew one. They don't do the product, they look nothing like a junkie, they often have squeaky clean records.

There is also an uptick of women car thieves because they get pulled over less

[Orrex]

30. Black men are in jail because they're men and they're black

Last edited Wed Jul 17, 2013, 04:10 PM - Edit history (1)

The fact that they are male is a contributing factor, but I'm not convinced that it's the primary factor, certainly not in terms of explaining the black/white disparity.


Your 11x versus 6x figures are interesting, but clarification might be helpful:

How much more likely is a white man to go to jail than a white woman?
How much more likely is a white man to go to jail than a black woman?

How much more likely is a black man to go to jail than a white woman?
How much more likely is a black man to go to jail than a black woman?


It is important to identify these ratios before we diminish race as a factor, and the raw multipliers of 11x and 6x don't provide enough info to be truly useful.

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. 11x and 6x are useful if, as we always do, view the privilege continuum as a matrix.

According to this link, in 2010 black women are incarcerated at 3X the rate of white women.

If blacks as a group are incarcerated at 6X the rate of whites, then it's apparent that black men are bearing the lions share of that bias. Indeed, the incarceration of black women has dropped 31% in the last decade.

Being a woman is a strongly protective factor when it comes to the justice system.

The below graphic is interesting, but it has one fatal flaw, it compares the incarceration rate of all adult men to the incarceration rate for a small slice (age 35-39) for women. They chose this demographic because it is the age range in which black women are most likely to be in jail.

White men are far more likely to be in jail than black women, and black men aged 20-34 are about 40X more likely to be in jail than white women aged 35-39.

[YoungDemCA]

14. Here's something to ponder...

Young women are going to college in greater numbers than young men these days. Why do you think that is?

Could it be, perhaps, that there's more incentive for women to go to college, because without higher education, their earning potential is more severely limited than that of equivalently educated men?

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. Why do I think that is?

There are a bunch of obvious answers to that question, starting with "because someone is willing to pay for it".

... which blows a huge hole in the "male privilege" argument.

[Gravitycollapse]

44. Every time you speak on this subject, I am horrified at your ignorance.

You can understand white privilege but not male privilege. How is that even possible without it really being that you understand male privilege but choose not the address it?

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. I understand both. One exists and the other does not.

It's not ignorance, it's fact. I AM addressing it.

Women are better educated, less likely to be victimized by crime, less likely to be punished for crimes, live longer (because more money is spent on their health care), work fewer hours and in shorter careers, spend twice as many years in retirement, disproportionately benefit from government programs, and 1/12th as likely to die on the job... what's not to like?

Contrast this with the daily experience of being black, and especially a black male, they draw the short straw in EVERY single one of these factors.

Male privilege is an obscene myth, and deep inside, americans know it because when given the choice, they give their offspring the advantage that comes from being female.

[Gravitycollapse]

47. No, it's an almost cartoonish like ignorance. Male privilege exists in such vast quantity...

that you would truly have to be a misogynist and a fool to think that it isn't a problem.

Women get paid less. They are less likely to be promoted. They are more likely to be judged by their work peers based on their physical attractiveness. Assertive women are viewed as bitchy or uppity rather than determined. They represent only a small fraction of positions held in congress. They make up less than one percent of company CEOs and less than 13% of all company executives.

They are required to work within the confines of the double bind. If they have a job outside the house, they have a job inside. So they come home only to begin a second shift. Women who do not stay home with their kids are called abusive, uncaring, or negligent. Poor single mothers are vilified as irresponsible moochers while poor single fathers are deified as the perfect man making a sacrifice for his children.

Female bodies are chopped up and airbrushed into oblivion to meet impossible standards of beauty. They are perpetually reduced to sexual objects by the public and in private. They are perpetual victims to physical and sexual intimidation by their male counterparts. Sexual violence against them is cast off as funny or insignificant.

If women are open with their sexuality, they are called whores. If they are reserved with their sexuality, they are called prudes.

They possess very little control over their bodies and the control they don't possess is handed over to all male regulatory committees.


So give me a break with your bullshit. Go peddle it somewhere else for a change.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

19. I'm inclined to disagree on both counts, I'm afraid.

I think the best definition of a privileged group (although by no means the only one) is a group who is better off than it would be if the distinction between members and non-members were not drawn.

White people are not better off than they would be if non-white people were not discriminated against.

Men are better off than they would be if women would not be discriminated against.

(This is completely unsurprising, when you consider the respective percentages of the population that are nonwhite and female).

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. Two days ago, I was involved in a traffic incident.

The white officer cut me more slack than was probably appropriate given the circumstances, and certainly more than if I were a person of color.

I'm better off, to the tune of $170, than any black man who does the same stupid thing.

The slack I was given would be unremarkable if I were female.

[CreekDog]

23. that's so true! males are at a complete disadvantage in all areas.

at least we get more pay than women to make up for that.

[Gravitycollapse]

43. Are you joking? The entire system is set up for male privilege.

[NealK]

49. Wow, in what alternative Universe are you living?

Or maybe you should go easy with the peyote.

[Rex]

17. 'Why do I have to explain this to every body over and over again?'

You mean like your friends? Maybe you should reflect on that. Otherwise, I have no idea who you are talking to. Known about white male privilege all my life.

[Taverner]

20. I hang with Libertarians sometimes

These guys have a gun fetish that borders on the psychopathic

But the strangest ones, are the libertarians who have a gun fetish yet HAVE NO GUNS

That still has my head spinning

Maybe it's like poor people voting Republican because they think that someday they will be rich?

[Rex]

25. Oh lord, yes I have a few libertarian acquaintances.

which are just really confused republicans imo. They are just like you describe, would fall on their swords for the right to have a sword - if only they had the money to own one.

Vote Repuke 100%, thinking they will be stinking rich one day...exact same thing and kinda scary. Sometimes it is why I call them foxnews zombies.

They all have this weird faith to lethal force and govt abuse.

[Taverner]

26. They are the people Thomas Hobbes was afraid of

So he became one

[Rex]

27. He didn't have much choice really.

Hanging with Royalists and then writing a secular book meant certain death if he didn't seek asylum with the new government. I think he was banned from writing in England after Leviathan came out.

[Taverner]

28. True...ahhhh the English Civil War

Knowing a bit about that puts our "Revolution" in a different light

[JaneyVee]

18. Mark Zuckerberg wears hoodies all the time. Zimmerman wouldn't have looked twice.

[polichick]

31. White males have been enjoying affirmative action for over 200 years...

even they were never an underrepresented group.

[Nye Bevan]

32. A hispanic man kills a black guy, is acquitted by a jury of six women,

and somehow it's the white man's fault?

[Orrex]

33. If there were five black guys at a table with a fair-skinned hispanic man

And someone asked you to point to the white guy, how much trouble would you have?

[Taverner]

34. I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about White Privlege

Not the Trayvon Martin murder...

[gollygee]

38. B-3

[LittleBlue]

39. Can you believe it?

Somehow this turned into a white privilege issue.

I wonder what the non-white member of the jury was thinking when she voted to acquit!

The male privilege is what? Being shot?


Meh

[LanternWaste]

36. I tend to think that the vast majority of people are aware in fact, of white privilege and male priv

I tend to think that the vast majority of people are aware in fact, of white privilege and male privilege, but at this point, simply deny either exists to see it better maintained.