Post here to admit you were wrong about Snowden and NSA

[RobertEarl]

See this link: Lawmakers Of Both Parties Voice Doubts About NSA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023282191

Wherein a few congress people say your anti-Snowden propaganda was a bunch of BS.

[ohheckyeah]

1. Good luck with that.

The latest "outrage" is his lawyer is on the public council of the FSB.

[brush]

2. Snowden is both

a whistle blower (good on him), and unfortunately, a traitor (not good).
He should not have divulged classified info to foreign governments.

[liberal N proud]

5. Nothing changes that.

[Luminous Animal]

15. He didn't.

[cstanleytech]

51. Yes, he did. When he revealed that the US had managed to penetrate

computers inside China that was revealing classified information US intelligence efforts in a foreign country.

[Civilization2]

69. The US should not be "penetrating computers" at all.

secret spy agencies are idiotic and counter productive,. their main aim is to oppress people not help us.

[HardTimes99]

86. Way OT, but I was reminded of a great sign I saw at an

anti-war protest (against the war in Iraq):

Sign simply said "LABIA (Lesbians Against Boys Invading Anything)"

[cstanleytech]

114. To bad we live in the real world. nt

[Civilization2]

116. thanks for the non-statement. Too bad logic escapes you.

Five new "secret" facilities the size of the Pentagon are not justifiable in a free and open society.

Fear is what you refer to by "real world"? it is not 'real' at all it is just fearful stories you buy into.

[cstanleytech]

117. I didnt say I disagreed with you Civil, just that its to bad we live in the real world.

As in the real world governments spy on each other and they always have.

[ohheckyeah]

125. I'm pretty sure

that "penetrating computers" would be considered an unnatural act in Virginia.

[Civilization2]

140. lolz

my drives are hard,. .

[eridani]

99. That's pretty chickenshit compared to sending big chunks of US manufacturing capacity there, includi

--defense-critical firms like Magnequench. No one in China would ever, ever think of fucking with our JDAM triggers, right?

[dreamnightwind]

118. Excellent point. n/t

[ohheckyeah]

121. Did you see the 60 Minutes

show that was all about China spying on the U.S.? Maybe the U.S. government shouldn't be so friggin' hypocritical.

[7962]

27. There's my thought in a nutshell.

[lumpy]

35. What do they want bad enough to try and bring down the US ?

n

[JDPriestly]

73. China already has anything we ever had that was of value -- except our land.

And maybe a few technical details of our already-out-of-date weapons systems.

By the time they are produced, these high-tech inventions are old technology.

Even in the area of technology, China will soon surpass us in many respect.

Iran? They probably already figured this out.

North Korea? That government will probably not be around long.

Russia? They sell natural gas to our best allies Europe. If we offend Russia too much, we are also offending Europe.

That leaves what? No "enemies" of any account.

[pnwmom]

37. I agree. He did a good thing but is now continuing to do bad things,

(such as the threats Greenwald recently made on his behalf) and that is undermining his credibility.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

66. Which is the dog and which is the pony in that show?

[pnwmom]

68. good question

[exlrrp]

101. yes, good question

[Apophis]

3. I noticed a couple of posters have been absent today.

Hmmmm...

[backscatter712]

41. Waiting for the new talking points to come back from focus group testing. n/t

Zee

[Apophis]

42. Yep.

Or for their next orders.

[Android3.14]

65. It's been a bunch of Nonsense

Truly, though, it has been amazing the obtuse behavior of these folks.

[randome]

43. Did you miss me?

Sorry, I started a new job today. I won't be able to provide you with entertainment other than in the mornings and evenings.

Afternoons, you'll need to fend for yourselves.

The position for many remains the same: cite the evidence that supports Snowden's claims.

This debate will then be ended.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Android3.14]

98. You are being silly again

So many have provided you with the evidence so often that it is obvious that you behave as a child who simply is without the capacity to accept a situation. It is time to respond with the classic phrase that parents have used for brats who refuse to listen, close their eyes rather than observe evidence, and apparently have shut down the portion of their own brains that engage in critical thinking.
Please imagine the voice of your Mommy or Daddy as you read the next sentence.
"Because I said so."
Now stamp your foot.
But just for you, to read while you sit in the Time-Out chair, I will provide you with a link to one of those endless explanations from a few days ago.
A polite debate, with evidence and very little name-calling.

[randome]

100. Address the issues I listed in post #30.

As for your link, you apparently equate having copies of metadata to be the same as 'spying on all Americans'.

I don't. I understand why some do so go ahead and change the laws about that. That's fine with me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Android3.14]

102. Sorry, kid

Reality doesn't change just because you are unable to understand it, and ignorance of language is a poor excuse to make up the meanings for complicated words such as the verb "spy".
It pleases me, however, to see that folks like yourself are definitely in the minority. It appeared, for a few weeks, that the sponge heads and sockpuppets were so numerous that they were going to be able to drown out the cry for a government that actually treats citizens as citizens, rather than suspects.
I've observed you and several others during this community discussion, and what has become obvious is that you and your crew are incapable of engaging in honest debate and lack the mental resilience to allow facts and rhetoric to impact your opinions.
It's a character flaw.

[bvar22]

129. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

[randome]

130. Address the issues I listed in post #30. That's an honest request.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[bornskeptic]

132. In other words there is no evidence, and you don't need no stinkin' evidence.

Why is it so hard to just say what you mean?

[MannyGoldstein]

4. Bullshit

Today proved us RIGHT. I'll be posting details later.

[RobertEarl]

8. This is your 3rd way?

I've heard about you, Manny. Your detractors have slippery traction. I'm sure they will be here soon to show just how slippery they are. Just wait.

[MannyGoldstein]

39. It is I, Third Way Manny

My detractors are... LIBERALS! DAMNED LIBERALS!

Need I say more?

Regards,

Third Way Manny

[grasswire]

127. Do you need beer and travel money?

Just askin.....

[MannyGoldstein]

128. Sauternes and Wall Street Money

'Cos I'm Third Way all the way, baby!

[frylock]

6. you still have morons here that insist evo morales' plane wasn't denied airspace..

they're either incapable of admitting that they're wrong, or they get paid to deny that they're wrong. in any case, don't hold your breath waiting for any mea culpa.

[Mojorabbit]

10. + a gazillion. nt

[Catherina]

11. Lol! Trying to sell piss as lemonade. The tenacity is something else and not good either n/t

[hootinholler]

17. When one makes ice cream out of horse shit

It's considered polite not to sell it as chocolate.

[Catherina]

56. Lol! n/t

[woo me with science]

81. Not only is shit being sold as chocolate,

the "chocolate" ration has been increased!

[backscatter712]

85. But they have the flight map!

[ohheckyeah]

122. That still makes me chuckle...

it was an epic fail.

[Poll_Blind]

115. Too true. nt

PB

[NuclearDem]

7. But...but...libertarian! Chinese spy! China hates freedom! I mean Russian spy! RUSSIA hates freedom!

Did I mention libertarian? His lawyer! Greenwald's a libertarian! Conspiracy! Traitortraitortraitortraitortraitortraitortraitortraitortraitortraitor! Damn it, POLE-DANCING GIRLFRIEND! THE BOXES WEREN'T UNPACKED!

[RobertEarl]

9. Yep. He had BOXES! Ahaa!

They sure boxed themselves up, and even gift-wrapped themselves in the stankest paper they could find.

[ohheckyeah]

12. You forgot he gave money to

Ron Paul.

[hootinholler]

14. And ratfucker n/t

[ohheckyeah]

16. Ewwwwwwwwww....

I didn't know that. I might have to change my opinion.

[backscatter712]

80. A certain group is certainly ratfucking here on DU... n/t

[7962]

28. Wait a minute....pole dancing girlfriend??? I may need to do more research........

[woo me with science]

82. And here's a map that PROVES it!

[hootinholler]

13. Did someone jam Keyser Soze's phone?

Where's the Barroness of Blue?

[ProSense]

18. I'll repeat a previous point

Bush's illegal spying was exposed in 2005 by Thomas Tamm. FISA has always been controversial and challenged by civil liberties groups and some lawmakers (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023009232). The notion that criticism of Snowdens actions that led him to reveal U.S. state secrets to other countries and find himself stuck in Russia have anything to do with anyone's opinion ongoing debate about NSA domestic programs is hogwash

Don't expect people to overlook Snowden's actions overseas simply because there are "doubts" about the program. Not going to happen.

Snowden is a delusional and self-important clown. He and Greenwald (and their supports) have done everything to help make the story about them.

First, Greenwald announces that he has enough information to bring down the U.S.

Snowden follows by declaring he's immune to torture.

He's applying for temporary asylum in Russia.

Doesn't get any more bizarre than that. Well...

Edward Snowden Declares Himself Torture-Proof
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023275112

If Snowden's case as a whistleblower is so strong, why is he afraid to face the consequences?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023236549

Sen. Tester Calls On Snowden To Return To America To ‘Face The Music’
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023281426

[ucrdem]

22. And now Sensenbrenner is pitching in too.

Such a lovely man.

[RobertEarl]

25. See that ucrdem?

Your reply to ProSense wherein PS made it all about Snowden is what this is about. You people have made this about Snowden and now you even attempt to make it about Sensenbrenner, while totally ignoring the fact that congress has just laid to waste all your propaganda by calling the NSA to task for its anti-constitutional activities.

Par for the course for the likes of you? Eh?

[ucrdem]

29. ProSense is responding to your OP, which is "about Snowden and NSA,"

per your title. My question is, why is your OP about Snowboy at all, if NSA-gate isn't about him?

[Katashi_itto]

92. +1000

[Pholus]

26. But here is the BEST point -- it did do something more than 2005...

See the government wouldn't allow a lawsuit against it over surveillance cause the plaintiff's couldn't prove they had been surveilled.

Supreme Court Dismisses Challenge to FISA Amendments Act; EFF's Lawsuit Over NSA Warrantless Wiretapping Remains
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/02/supreme-court-dismisses-challenge-fisa-warrantless-wiretapping-law-effs-lawsuit

But now, thanks to your "clown"...well, that might be changing.

Snowden’s Surveillance Leaks Provide Openings For Opponents’ Legal Challenges - WaPo
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/snowdens-surveillance-leaks-provide-openings-for-opponents-legal-challenges/2013/07/15/481c35b2-eb25-11e2-a301-ea5a8116d211_story.html

Which is a good thing, because prosecutors have been trying to hold secret the fact that it's dragnet surveillance that gives the initial tip leading to their criminal investigations.

A Secret Surveillance Program Proves Challengeable in Theory Only
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/16/us/double-secret-surveillance.html

I'll gladly accept your premise that Snowden is a "clown" because it's completely irrelevant.

Some long past-due sunlight is now disinfecting this fetid little un-American swamp.

[siligut]

83. Yes, this is what is most significant, proof of the NSA's surveillance

And finally some focused attention on the issue.

[dreamnightwind]

119. +1000

I have seen no evidence that the Snowden detractors even care about the surveillance. Because their hero Obama is POTUS, they have to defend it, or distract from the spying by attacking the messengers. Disgusting.

[ucrdem]

19. Dang, I thought you were making a public confession.

Hey a guy can hope. Anyway I thought this wasn't about Snowden?

[RobertEarl]

23. Yes. I confess

Your propaganda wasn't worth the electrons that carried it.

This isn't about Snowden. It is about the false BS propaganda that you and others have been spewing.

[ucrdem]

24. Can you point out these alleged falsehoods you speak of?

Because I haven't seen them. And if this isn't about Snowball why is he in your thread title?

[randome]

30. Evidence.

Snowden claimed that armed with an email address, he could personally spy on anyone, including the President. Makes you wonder why he didn't snatch an email to prove it to us.

Snowden claimed the NSA had 'direct access' to the world's Internet providers. All the companies involved say that's bullshit.

Snowden claimed the NSA can watch our thoughts form as we type. Any evidence they are doing that? No.

Snowden claimed the NSA is downloading the Internet on a daily basis. Any evidence? No.

Snowden said he "saw things" but he has never said what that means.

He was not an Intelligence Analyst so he was never in a position to "see things" in the first place. If he somehow gained access through hook or crook, why didn't he get something to support his claims?

There is a reason China didn't want him and even the Wikileaks attorneys don't want him. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002310173
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[RobertEarl]

36. Heh

You are always wrong. And when you are wrong you never admit it. Amirite?

Because of Snowden, we now have near universal cognizance about the NSA spying. I say near, because there is still the likes of you.

[randome]

38. Cite the evidence that supports the claims listed above.

I have absolutely no problem with admitting I'm wrong because I don't care about being right or wrong.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Th1onein]

59. FOR THE FIRST TIME, WE SEE AN ACTUAL FISA WARRANT

And they are demanding ALL OF THE DATA. ALL OF IT. From Verizon's business customers. ALL OF IT.

THIS is courtesy of Snowden. Because of Snowden, we see an actual FISA warrant. And, yes, it should set your hair on fire.

That it doesn't speaks volumes about YOU, not him.

[randome]

67. Not only is it a legal warrant but the courts have ruled for decades that metadata is not protected.

You can take up arms to defend your precious metadata rights if you want but it seems to me you have set the bar pretty low for a revolution.

I mean, what's next? Demanding that traffic signals are better synchronized?

Viva la revolution!

Meanwhile, back in Texas, where politicians are attempting to close all abortion clinics...
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Th1onein]

79. Let's see.....what number was that under the Apologists' Manifesto?

But, but, but, it's legal, they scream!

[randome]

97. What, you deny that it's legal?

Ignore reality if you want. Change the law if you want. It's all the same to me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Th1onein]

141. I very much doubt that it's legal, except in secret interpretations of the law.

In that case, how would ANY of us lowly commoners know if it was legal or not?

[NCTraveler]

103. Don't get me started on traffic signals.

With more thought put behind them, our annual carbon footprint could be reduced in a significant manner. Could also reduce stress. I am going to stop there as it is off topic. Just having fun.

[randome]

137. What is this thing you call...'fun'?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[zappaman]

48. Heh.

BeFree to believe Snowden even though he has presented no evidence to back up his claims.
But we know you have never needed evidence to believe something, heh?

[RobertEarl]

54. No evidence?

There are a couple of congress people who have the evidence. Just because you may be blind, does not mean everyone else is like you.

Thank the Gawds. I just can't imagine a world where there was more than one zappaman. You are unique, indeed.

How about this: Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), the top Democrat on the panel, argued that collecting telephone metadata under Section 215 of the Patriot Act “can amount to a Fourth Amendment violation” before any use is made of it. “You’ve already violated the law as far as I am concerned,” he told the witnesses.

[zappaman]

55. Heh.

Then you should BeFree to answer post #30.

[Th1onein]

61. No evidence, my ass.

Go forth, educate thyself.

[reusrename]

88. Your denial is too complete to be reasoned with.

I know you understand the issue of direct access, but you pretend not to.

I know you have been informed about the Utah facility that stores all digital communication, but you pretend not to have ever heard about it.

You may be fooling yourself, but I doubt it. In any event, no one here is fooled by you.

[randome]

95. Yeah, that Utah facility storing all data in the world before it's built.

'Direct access' means a secure FTP server that Internet providers place data collected via warrant. It's a safe way for the NSA -or whoever- to get data they have requested legally.

What would you expect them to do? Mail a CD?

As for the Utah facility, we should know what that's about. However, it has absolutely nothing to do with Snowden.

And I'm not trying to 'fool' anyone. It's simply a sad situation to see people 'take to the streets' on an issue like metadata phone records when there are so many more pressing issues.

It's the Occupy mindset all over again. We will fight to the death for our right to camp out in public parks! We will fight to the death to keep our precious metadata out of the NSA's hands.

I suppose you could say these type of protests have accomplished so much since the goals and expectations are so tiny.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[reusrename]

108. This stuff is just too advanced for some folks.

Keep studying and you may catch up some day.

[dreamnightwind]

120. I disagree with so many things in this post I don't know where to begin.

Pathetic.

[randome]

131. Pick one.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[dreamnightwind]

136. Nope, I pick every single word

Don't agree with any of it, you're living in an alternative universe to the one I inhabit.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

20. There are several useless liars here who will never admit they were wrong

It's not in their DNA to do so. I haven't read the rest of the thread yet--they're probably already here.

[randome]

31. I don't see anyone calling you names. Funny how that one-way street works, huh?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[DisgustipatedinCA]

33. It's a laugh riot.

[CakeGrrl]

34. +1000

Gee, and they wonder why the thread doesn't have many takers?

It's not rocket science.

[Warren Stupidity]

93. Racist Paul-bots. Oh no that never happened.

[randome]

94. You're right, I have seen 'Paul-bot' applied. Not by me but by some.

I don't think I've seen the 'racist' epithet applied, though. Not sure what race would have to do with any of this.

On edit: Much has been made of the fact that this is an issue only because of the black man in the White House so I agree, racism has been applied. Again, not by me but by some.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Matariki]

77. Not in their job descriptions either

the employee manual clearly states to 'dig in' no matter what

[99th_Monkey]

21. Not many takers huh? Oh well, not too surprising. ~nt

[Gman]

32. My, how the political winds can shift

Just absolutely shocked to find gambling in this establishment.

[carolinayellowdog]

40. OK, I was wrong about Snowden and NSA

I thought the pro-NSA trolls would succeed in their character assassinating propaganda FAR more than they have!

[randome]

47. Not sure you'd find many pro-NSA DUers.

But plenty of DUers are pro evidence.

Snowden has none. He doesn't seem capable of admitting he was wrong about 'direct access'. He said "I am not here to hide from justice." while in his 'undisclosed location' in Hong Kong.

He is a poor example of 'hero', IMO.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[shawn703]

44. Really?

Which Congresscritter said the foreign press was lying about the details Snowden shared about foreign surveillance, just so people could claim he was no longer a whistleblower but a traitor?

[Rex]

45. Impossible, some DUers are never wrong.

This forum is full of flawless people, I know amazing, but very very true.

[UTUSN]

46. *posting* NOT wrong. SNOWDEN/GREENWALD got something wrong 'bout them. n/t

[RobertEarl]

49. What about this?

Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), the top Democrat on the panel, argued that collecting telephone metadata under Section 215 of the Patriot Act “can amount to a Fourth Amendment violation” before any use is made of it. “You’ve already violated the law as far as I am concerned,” he told the witnesses.

[UTUSN]

53. Well, I love CONYERS, and almost ALL Dems, but there's something FISHY

'bout SNOWDEN/GREENWALD.

[RobertEarl]

58. It isn't about Snowden

It is about the anti-Snowden propaganda, which tried to detract from the evidence which Conyers confirmed has lead to him and others being able to question the NSA.

All Snowden did was open the door. Did you want the door to stay closed?

[UTUSN]

104. Since this thread is back p.1, I'll respond

I've only participated in the SNOWDEN/GREENWALD furor threads in a tip-of-the-iceberg way and haven't seen your DU-handle there at that summit, & don't expect anybody to know every DU member's peculiar policy position on everything, but your points (and rhetorical techniques) in your post #58 have been hammered endlessly.

"It isn't about Snowden"/GREENWALD. From the beginning, for me, it was totally about them. Their "revelations" were lacking in the relevatory department, which speaks to "All Snowden did was open the door. Did you want the door to stay closed?" - ho hum.

As for calling SNOWDEN/GREENWALD's personal history "propaganda," biographical facts CAN be, perhaps even OFTEN are, but for me the suspect behaviors and history of these two just trigger my intuitive red flag, as in "something does not compute." Something about both of them being histrionic and running and cashing in (GREENWALD, so far) with book and notoriety. End of "points".

On to the rhetorical gambits: SNOWDEN/GREENWALDaders appear to exhibit a strong desire to BE RIGHT. Many of them vociferously ATTACK those who DISAGREE (read, "have a different OPINION&quot , using loaded language. In your #58 you frame it as a enemy-against-enemy issue ("ANTI-snowden&quot , and dismiss anything and everything the opposing side says as "propaganda." In most of the furor, you all have flung the word "authoritarian" at those who disagree, name-calling all the time. I haven't read this thread, but saw one of those agreeing with you, downthread, saying, "Nothing will convince THOSE FUCKERS." Ever heard of attracting with honey instead of dousing with acid?!1 Although in my case with this issue and its cast of characters, I will not be swayed, so there's that, yet I have never personally attacked or name-called my fellow DUers in any disagreement. I *have* described their behaviors.

I will note that this form of contentiousness is not new, its being identical to that of Hugo CHAVEZ supporters. (I'm DESCRIBING!1) Notice in the second quote below how GREENWALD poses himself as the victim of ad hominem, while he is defined in his history of personally lashing out with ad hominem against anybody who has ever disagreed or criticized him.


*********QUOTE********

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023225969

[font size=5]If I could interrupt for a moment, how about... the Hate Mailbag![/font]

(by EarlG, DU Administrator)

[FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]Democratic Underground may be a contentious place at the moment, but thank goodness there are some common truths which still bring us together[/FONT] after all these years. For example, I think we can all agree that no matter which side of the Snowden vs. Obama debate you come down on, you're a right-wing ratfucking paid-to-post shill. Amirite?!?!

Anyway, [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]if you've been spending a little too much time scrapping with your fellow progressives[/FONT] in the DU bubble lately it may have slipped your mind that [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]there are real right-wing assholes out there who wish for nothing more than to see us all crucified and burned[/FONT] at the stake simultaneously. (Which I've got to admit would make for a pretty sweet heavy metal album cover).

So here's the Hate Mailbag to give you a taste of [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]what conservatives are saying out there in the real world[/FONT], sprinkled with a dash of good old-fashioned WTF. Enjoy!




http://ggsidedocs.blogspot.com.br/2013/01/frequently-told-lies-ftls.html

[font size=5]Frequently Told Lies (FTLs)[/font]

by Glenn GREENWALD

.... I'm a right-wing libertarian
Ever since I began writing about politics back in 2005, people have tried to apply pretty much every political [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]label[/FONT] to me. It’s almost always [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]a shorthand method to discredit someone without having to engage the substance[/FONT] of their arguments. It’s the classic [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]ad hominem[/FONT] fallacy: you don’t need to listen to or deal with his arguments because he’s an X. ....

*************UNQUOTE*************

[RobertEarl]

106. Separate the action from the actors

If you can do that, you can see the effects of the action more clearly.

When you can differentiate, the players become but minor parts while the effects loom large.

In this matter the lines are drawn between those who are ok with being tapped and those who think they have a right to not be tapped. Guess which side the constitution lies?

The effects of Snowden's actions are that the constitution is seen as being violated.

It really is that simple. Part of the government is way out of control.

[UTUSN]

107. O.K., we're at the go-our-separate-ways point, I hope amicably. I really thought I was clear

that for me it's never about separating "the action from the actors" and it's not a matter of whether I have the capacity to do that. Let's you and me go have the rest of a nice day!1

[RobertEarl]

109. That's what I took from your post

That you were not drawing the line between acts and actors.

In my politics and activism it always made the goal much clearer when I could take personalities out and see just the outcome for the community.

I steer away from the politics of personal destruction because that is rarely productive and is disrespectful of differing opinions.

In this case the names could all be changed. The personalities do not matter to the outcome, which is increased privacy.

[UTUSN]

112. Gosh, not to flog a dead horse, but I SAID I NEVER separate the two and won't start now. Please. nt

[dreamnightwind]

126. The actor is the NSA

Snowden is merely some guy that worked for a NSA contractor commenting on what actions that actor is taking. So you're refusing to separate the commentator from the actor's actions, which is quite different than refusing to separate the actor from the actions.

And on the larger point, it is often wise to separate the actor from the actions, when the actions have far greater consequence than personal details of the actor. MLK had plenty of character flaws, but you'd have a hard time making the case that his civil rights leadership should have been derailed by those character flaws. That's a very flawed way of looking at events.

[Tx4obama]

50. Snowden STOLE classified government documents, his publicly admitted crimes are felonies.

He should be arrested and stand trial.

[RobertEarl]

57. You should go arrest him

I just know you'll never rest until you have him in your clutches.

As it stands, your propaganda that he has done nothing for the country is now seen for the BS it always was.

Her's proof: Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), the top Democrat on the panel, argued that collecting telephone metadata under Section 215 of the Patriot Act “can amount to a Fourth Amendment violation” before any use is made of it. “You’ve already violated the law as far as I am concerned,” he told the witnesses.

[cheapdate]

72. Incontrovertible proof that John Conyers is of the opinion

that collecting telephone metadata under the Patriot Act is is a Fourth Amendment violation -- "as far as (he's) concerned."

[Th1onein]

62. You're pissed now that they have the EVIDENCE to support their lawsuit,

aren't you, Tx4obama? THAT really bothers you, doesn't it?

[frylock]

63. RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!1

[L0oniX]

75. We should boycott Russia.

[Gravitycollapse]

89. I'm throwing my vote in with deputizing you and making you go arrest him.

[stupidicus]

60. well, rightwingers don't have a monopoly on dishonest dumbasshood

as they don't a great deal else.

It's really boiled down to but certainly not limited to this from the beginning with me

But the government’s creative re-interpretation of one provision, known as Section 215, to justify collection of every American’s telephone records has turned Sensenbrenner into a critic of the national security establishment. Here he is earlier Wednesday at a hearing of the House Judiciary Committee, berating Deputy Attorney General James Cole on the government’s interpretation of Section 215:

Section 215 requires the government to certify that its information requests are relevant to an ongoing terrorist investigation. But Sensenbrenner notes that the government claims that records of every phone call in America is relevant to a terrorism investigation. He asked: “Doesn’t that make a mockery of the legal standard, because you’re trying to have it both ways?” http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/07/17/whoa-watch-the-patriot-acts-author-warn-congress-might-cancel-the-spying-program/

Anybody that has tried to polish that particular turd has been either too ignorant/lacking in understanding to be in the debate, or in the only plausible alternative, approving of that interpretation.

BHO certainly has been, which is why I've noted several times since this broke, this is one of the reasons why he has more ownership of it than they're willing to give him. http://blog.sfgate.com/techchron/2013/06/07/obama-responds-to-spying-scandal-answers-charge-that-no-one-has-made/ That's what this is really all about for them -- denial/ego preservation, or hero worship. The latter I find highly amusing given the way they've tried to silence all the thanks Snowden deserves, and the "hero" status some have given him.

And having so much confidence in the idea that they wouldn't be abusing stuff, being who and what they are, is either mindnumbingly or painfully stupid imo. Why it's been so difficult to think or imagine that BHO would sign off on this stuff has a limited number of explanations in any case.

The most stupid are those still asking for "evidence".

[underthematrix]

64. I think the most interesting story is why Snowden

has had a drastic change in behavior, e.g. going from keeping secrets to allegedly exposing them. I have known for a long time that the US collects all sorts of metadata which doesn't bother me in the least. I want to know WHY Snowden changed his behavior. I'm thinking blackmail. I don't care about the NSA. I want to know what the blackmailer has on Snowden. Where's the GLOBE, SUN, and ENQUIRER when you need them?

[Android3.14]

138. A man who has no problem with

an outside force violating his rights has already accepted the slave mentality.

[JDPriestly]

70. K&R.

Tip of the iceberg, indeed.

Rep. Loretta Sanchez (D-Calif.) said lawmakers learned "significantly more" about the spy programs at the National Security Agency (NSA) during a briefing on Tuesday with counterterrorism officials.

"What we learned in there," Sanchez said, "is significantly more than what is out in the media today."

Lawmakers are barred from revealing the classified information they receive in intelligence briefings, and Sanchez was careful not to specify what members might have learned about the NSA's work.

"I can't speak to what we learned in there, and I don't know if there are other leaks, if there's more information somewhere, if somebody else is going to step up, but I will tell you that I believe it's the tip of the iceberg," she said.

http://thehill.com/video/house/305047-dem-rep-lawmakers-learned-significantly-more-about-surveillance-programs-in-nsa-briefing

This program is insane.

[Warren Stupidity]

71. Not one of those fuckers will ever admit they are wrong. N.T.

[RobertEarl]

78. It does appear that way

I was hoping for some sense to come thru, alas, it has not.

It does make one wonder what they are doing here on a site that is about democracy while they work hard to keep democracy dumbed down. They sure have gained my everlasting animosity.

[backscatter712]

84. How would they collect a paycheck if they conceded the talking points they're paid to be spamming?nt

[Whisp]

74. I was wrong.

I thought by now more people would realize that they are being scammed by Snow and GG.

Did you send money?

[Godhumor]

76. I was so hoping you were taking this OP in a different direction

Ah, well.

[CakeGrrl]

87. Congresspeople read DU for propaganda?

Looks like the people who were briefed obviously didn't communicate with their colleagues, and/or someone didn't attend or pay attention to the briefings. THAT'S never happened!

Snowden still broke laws.

And Congress, who MADE THE LAWS that enabled this type of surveillance, is having the dialogue that needs to happen if they're going to CHANGE the laws to make them more restrictive.

And Snowden still broke laws and is running from his responsibility for doing so. That doesn't change just because Congress is finally deciding to pay attention to the effects of the laws they enacted.

[RobertEarl]

90. Snowden broke some laws, that's a given

See this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023285968

It is now apparent that Snowden was a real whistleblower in the sense that he reported laws being broken.

Conyers can vouch for that.

Briefings were given to a few congress people, and in secrecy. Most of congress did not know how far astray the NSA had ventured. Now they are beginning to be informed and the reactions are important.

Snowden kicked in the door of the secrecy, that now exposed, is making more and more members of congress realize that more restrictions need to be in place.

[great white snark]

91. You still clutching to the "whistleblower" facade?

There are avenues for true whistleblowers to use. Snowden chose Greenwald (or Greenwald chose Snowden).

[marions ghost]

105. Yes

it is really scary how few in congress REALLY knew what was going on here, or how any of it worked.

[xchrom]

96. du rec.

[HardTimes99]

110. I understand the sentiment and where it is coming from (I think), but I'm not

sure gloating (or maybe 'taunting') is the way to move the discussion forward, as emotionally gratifying as it may seem. At best, such gloating feels a little unseemly, given the serious nature of the matters at hand.

Now that Conyers and Sensenbrenner variously have demonstrated that the pro-Snowden faction is correct, I think we now need to move to a discussion of what is to be done to correct matters. For example, Sensenbrenner raised the issue of Congress' power of the purse as a sword of Damocles.

Personally, I'd like to see a thorough house-cleaning of the upper echelons of the security state, starting iwth Clapper's and Alexanders' immediate resignations. Since they were never protecting us from anything anyway, their resignations will not threaten our security in the slightest.

[RobertEarl]

111. Agreed

My attempt here is to make clear that the bickering about Snowden should cease and we all gang up on the real target: NSA heads.

Conyers did not mention Snowden. This is not about Snowden, it never was, it is about the NSA and our rights. This thread is an attempt to steer the discussions away from the past and toward the future.

And that is exactly what your comments pertain to: Clapper's and others resignations. That is the next step.

[Android3.14]

139. This sounds about right

We should also demand much better public oversight.

[SidDithers]

113. Post here if you've ever used two DU accounts at the same time...

I know I haven't. How 'bout you, OP?

Sid

[ohheckyeah]

124. That's all you've got?

[Hydra]

123. I'm sure you made a lot of people angry with this thread

But we need a dust-up. The people trying to cover for the NSA and the Obama Admin were wrong. Period. End of discussion. They were and are wrong in just about every way possible.

We need to move on to dealing with how to help the people in Congress roll the NSA back if the Obama Admin won't do it. No more lies and distractions and maps of Moscow and "Hong Kong Eddie."

The epic fail was almost funny, if it hadn't been so scary. "We love Big Brother!" as the motto of the Obama Era? Who'da thunk it?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

133. So, lawmakers "voice doubts"?

and then the rest of us are supposed to "admit" that we are wrong?

People who have issues with what Snowden did and/or why he did it and what else he did have never said that there isn't reason to talk more about the merits of these programs. Heck, even President Obama stated that he would welcome a discussion. But some of us don't view all this whole affair as apocalyptically as some people around here apparently do and some of us take issues with what Snowden did. I for one don't look at taking and leaking classified information and then also suggesting that he would be willing to share information with other governments as a particularly *good* thing unless it exposes some particularly nasty activity (i.e. torture, crimes against humanity, etc). Mass collection of all of this information may be troubling but AFAIK it's not been abused and nobody has suffered as a result of it. Give me a reason why I should light my hair on fire and run around madly

[randome]

134. According to some posters here, those 'doubts' are the same thing as 'proof'.

It boggles my mind sometimes.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[RobertEarl]

142. It is not about Snowden

This thread is about how some people here used Snowden to detract from the NSA violations of the 4th and broke laws.

Did you forget Bush and Cheney set this ball rolling? And they probably have very many of their people still in charge - in government and in private contractors.

Let me tell you something else you just wave your hand at as if only you are tthe only one that matters.... I do not want the government spying on me. You may want it spying on you, I do not. The 4th says I have the right to not be spied on.

You wrote: "AFAIK it's not been abused and nobody has suffered as a result of it." Gawd, Bush people just love people like you. I don't. You are practically an enemy of my rights. Which other rights are you going to wave away next?

[bvar22]

135. DURec.

..and I must confess to the guilty pleasure of watching a few here [font size=3]Hoisted by their own Petards[/font], but still insist that the reaming by hot shrapnel is not happening.

Delightful.


Denial of Reality is a childish attempt to Save Face employed by those with insufficient Ego Strengths to admit that they may have made a mistake.
They desperately cling to the false hope that nobody will be able to see through their clever deception if they never admit it.
It IS a classic FAIL.