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mfcorey1

(11,134 posts)
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 06:06 AM Jul 2013

Another Stand YOur Ground in Florida

The shocking racial Stand Your Ground-related case in Port St. Joe

@MarcACaputo

As Florida’s Stand Your Ground self-defense law goes on trial in the court of public opinion, more lethal force cases – especially those involving race -- are again making national headlines.

There’s the case of Marissa Alexander, sentenced to 20 years in prison for firing a warning shot at her husband. And there’s the case of Michael Dunn, accused of first-degree murder in the July 30, 2012 shooting death of an unarmed teenager. Mother Jones branded it the "Next Trayvon Martin Case."
Here’s a shocking case has been barely mentioned: The killing of a 32-year-old black man named Everett Gant by 60-year-old Walter Butler in Port St. Joe, an old Florida Panhandle town.

Butler, who allegedly used the n-word to describe both the victim and a child in the neighborhood, is seeking immunity from prosecution under Stand Your Ground. He has a court hearing in September.

The prosecutor, Bob Sombathy, said Butler does not have much to stand on. He said Butler, charged with second-degree murder, "laid in wait" with a .22 rifle for Gant, who was coming over with a friend to discuss Butler's racist comments to a kid in the neighborhood.

"Someone opened the door and Gant shot him in the eye," Sombathy said. "There were no real words exchanged, no threats."

Sombathy said two people witnessed the incident (one inside Butler's apartment and another person with Gant). Here’s the text of the initial affidavit from the Gulf County Sheriff’s Office:
"The below signed affiant states that through his investigation and interview with the suspect, Walton Henry Butler, Butler did admit shooting Everett Gant in the head with a .22 cal. Rifle which caused series [sic] bodily injury. During an interview with Walter Butler he said he shot a “nigger.”

"There had been an incident earlier in the day when Pamela Rogers came to Butler’s apartment with a child and the defendant called the child a nigger and Ms. Rogers became upset and left the residence. Through the investigation it was learned that the defendant had made several racial remarks to the black children in the apartment complex. The victim Everett Gant went to the defendant’s residence to talk with him about the comments when he was shot. The victim Everett Gant was shot in the face causing great bodily harm he was transported to Bay Medical Center where he was listed in stable condition.

"After Walt Butler shot Everett Gant he stated he shut the sliding glass door with Everett Gant lying outside the door, called 911 then finished cooking supper, sat at the kitchen table and began eating.

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2013/07/the-shocking-racial-stand-your-ground-case-in-port-st-joe.html#more

30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Another Stand YOur Ground in Florida (Original Post) mfcorey1 Jul 2013 OP
The KKK's new motto: Keep it legal and white Eddie Haskell Jul 2013 #1
Actually the SYG hearing is before a judge only. onenote Jul 2013 #2
Even if he loses the SYG hearing CanonRay Jul 2013 #6
+1, OR .. OR SYG will be added to the jury instructions like in the Zimmerman trial. I STILL don't.. uponit7771 Jul 2013 #12
because, as has been explained to you several times onenote Jul 2013 #24
No it hasn't been "explained" many times... and every state does not have horrid evil SYG laws uponit7771 Jul 2013 #26
No one ever said they did onenote Jul 2013 #27
how is this SYG??? it seems like he saw the guy coming towards his house ejpoeta Jul 2013 #3
marissa Niceguy1 Jul 2013 #4
The restraining order was against HIM not her..she went there to collect her babies clothes angstlessk Jul 2013 #8
stll a crime. Niceguy1 Jul 2013 #9
Can you point me to the crime ... I have googled it and found angstlessk Jul 2013 #11
personal.experience Niceguy1 Jul 2013 #20
Once again...link please..there must be a law WRITTEN down? angstlessk Jul 2013 #21
Off to greatest with you! nt raccoon Jul 2013 #5
Second degree murder? BklnDem75 Jul 2013 #7
This is going to become a daily occurence in Florida... Punkingal Jul 2013 #10
That's not stand your ground rl6214 Jul 2013 #13
Clear SYG, it doesn't matter the before or after in an SYG case... JUST what was in the persons mind uponit7771 Jul 2013 #15
still waiting for that non SYG case where it was held that the duty to avoid conflict by retreating onenote Jul 2013 #30
EVEN IF Butler doesn't "claim" syg immunity the judge HAS TO add it to jury instructions JUST like Z uponit7771 Jul 2013 #14
A clever and apropos turn of a phrase. lpbk2713 Jul 2013 #18
+1, Didn't think about that uponit7771 Jul 2013 #19
Well, if he's allowed to argue that he felt threatened, sure he may get away with it. geek tragedy Jul 2013 #16
The majority of Florida SYG cases are whites shooting whites hack89 Jul 2013 #23
Whether these people are found guilty or not, the law is obviously creating problems. renie408 Jul 2013 #17
Criminals can make any claim they want hack89 Jul 2013 #22
This message was self-deleted by its author Initech Jul 2013 #25
This message was self-deleted by its author onenote Jul 2013 #28
This sounds like a hate crime BainsBane Jul 2013 #29

Eddie Haskell

(1,628 posts)
1. The KKK's new motto: Keep it legal and white
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 06:59 AM
Jul 2013

SYG cases will be determined by a jury of our peers.

onenote

(46,135 posts)
2. Actually the SYG hearing is before a judge only.
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 07:09 AM
Jul 2013

And the burden is on the defendant in that hearing. I have little doubt based on this report that the court will deny the claim of SYG immunity, at which point the case will go to trial. The defendant will have an initial burden (quite low) to produce evidence that, if assumed true, warrants giving an instruction on self defense (including the SYG element) to a jury.

I'm not a fan of SYG laws, but apart from the portion of the SYG law that allows a defendant to make a pretrial motion for immunity, this case probably doesn't have anything to do with SYG, since the defendant was in his home and thus, even before the SYG law was enacted, the common law "castle" doctrine provided that he didn't have any duty to retreat if he felt threatened in his own home. Based on the facts as described, he had no basis to feel threatened and I would hope and expect that he is convicted just as quickly as John Henry Spooner was convicted.

CanonRay

(16,160 posts)
6. Even if he loses the SYG hearing
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 09:22 AM
Jul 2013

he could still use self-defense as a defense (Zimmerman had no reason to feel threatened either, that's probably why he left his vehicle). He just cannot claim immunity using SYG. So it will probably go to a jury. Of course, if he wins SYG hearing, charges will be dismissed. I don't have a lot of faith in Floriduh juries right now. Probably even less in the Panhandle.

uponit7771

(93,532 posts)
12. +1, OR .. OR SYG will be added to the jury instructions like in the Zimmerman trial. I STILL don't..
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:06 PM
Jul 2013

...see how those insturctions got added and if they were then who cares about immunity via SYG?!

onenote

(46,135 posts)
24. because, as has been explained to you several times
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:40 PM
Jul 2013

Stand your ground is part and parcel of the law of self defense now, just as pre-SYG the duty to retreat was part and parcel of the self-defense law.

Just as it would have been error pre-SYG to leave out the duty to retreat element of the self-defense intruction it would have been error to leave out the stand your ground element of the self-defense instruction in the Zimmerman case.

uponit7771

(93,532 posts)
26. No it hasn't been "explained" many times... and every state does not have horrid evil SYG laws
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 05:06 PM
Jul 2013

onenote

(46,135 posts)
27. No one ever said they did
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 05:34 PM
Jul 2013

And I never defended SYG law. I think that the common law rule (duty to retreat subject to certain exceptions) is a better approach. But that's not the issue. The issue is why did the Florida court, where SYG is part of the self-defense law and duty to retreat is not, give the SYG instruction.

And the answer for the umpteenth and first time, is that it gave the instruction because it is part of the law of self defense in Florida, just as a court in a non SYG state will give the duty to retreat instruction because it is part of the law of self defense in that state.

I have some friendly advice for you: never go to law school. You will simply have wasted a semester's tuition when you flunk out.

ejpoeta

(8,933 posts)
3. how is this SYG??? it seems like he saw the guy coming towards his house
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 07:12 AM
Jul 2013

and hid and waited with his gun drawn. That is an assassination.

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
4. marissa
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 07:51 AM
Jul 2013

Is oh so guilty. She actually committed several crimes I the incident, including the violation of a restraining order. Plus warning shots are not legal. She is a poor example to use,.

angstlessk

(11,862 posts)
8. The restraining order was against HIM not her..she went there to collect her babies clothes
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 03:46 PM
Jul 2013

Why he was not kicked out I wonder?

angstlessk

(11,862 posts)
11. Can you point me to the crime ... I have googled it and found
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:05 PM
Jul 2013

Nothing...if you know it is a crime..how do you know?

Niceguy1

(2,467 posts)
20. personal.experience
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:31 PM
Jul 2013

Was explained that whennshe got the order. They make it prefectly clear.

BklnDem75

(2,918 posts)
7. Second degree murder?
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 09:44 AM
Jul 2013

"Laid in wait" usually means premeditated murder, which is first degree murder. Is the argument that Butler was trying to shoot Gant, but not trying to kill him?

Punkingal

(9,522 posts)
10. This is going to become a daily occurence in Florida...
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 03:54 PM
Jul 2013

Now that an official stamp of approval was given on national television with the Zimmerman verdict.

uponit7771

(93,532 posts)
15. Clear SYG, it doesn't matter the before or after in an SYG case... JUST what was in the persons mind
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:11 PM
Jul 2013

...at the time the "defense of person" occured.

That's the trap the GZ jury was put in, they were told that sense there's no "duty to retreat" there's also no duty to "avoid conflict" either.

One could CLEARLY make a case that GZ wasn't trying to avoid conflict by following a person he thought was dangerous but the jury couldn't deliberate on that...

ONLY...ONLY what was a "reasonable fear" at the time the person pulled the trigger

onenote

(46,135 posts)
30. still waiting for that non SYG case where it was held that the duty to avoid conflict by retreating
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 05:42 PM
Jul 2013

means you can't follow someone. I guess you haven't found it yet. Check the fiction section of the library.

I gave you a very detailed example illustrating why you are wrong and are simply demonstrating how you know nothing about the law of self defense (or at least nothing correct). Care to address it. Its the example of the guy who upset that someone who owes him money has lied to him about not having the money to pay him back, goes to a bar where he knows that person is drunkenly spending a lot of money and confronts him, refuses to leave when the drunk who owes him money tells him to get lost and the, after the drunk pulls a gun that doesn't fire, pulls out a knife and stabs the guy with the gun rather than attempting to flee the croweded bar. I guarantee that in a non SYG juridiction the defendant is found to have acted in legitimate self defense, even though they went to the bar where the victim was, confronted the victim, refused to leave when given the opportunity, and did not flee once a gun was pulled (because in that instance, it would not be possible to flee a crowded bar with complete safety for the defendant and others in the bar).


Have at it.

uponit7771

(93,532 posts)
14. EVEN IF Butler doesn't "claim" syg immunity the judge HAS TO add it to jury instructions JUST like Z
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:09 PM
Jul 2013

....the Zimmerman case.

So, either there will be a long trial where Butler gets off Scott free or .. or he'll get away Scott free in the beginning of it all

Regards

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
16. Well, if he's allowed to argue that he felt threatened, sure he may get away with it.
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:11 PM
Jul 2013

SYG is meant to encourage the shooting of black people.

hack89

(39,181 posts)
23. The majority of Florida SYG cases are whites shooting whites
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:38 PM
Jul 2013

the second largest group is blacks shooting blacks.

Florida is like the rest of the country - murder is primarily intra-racial.

renie408

(9,854 posts)
17. Whether these people are found guilty or not, the law is obviously creating problems.
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:15 PM
Jul 2013

Because of the SYG law in Florida, these people feel entitled to kill and think they will get away with it.

hack89

(39,181 posts)
22. Criminals can make any claim they want
Thu Jul 18, 2013, 04:36 PM
Jul 2013

doesn't mean the prosecutor, judge and jury have to believe him.

Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Response to Initech (Reply #25)

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