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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUnveiled! Portrait of American Truth Teller Edward Snowden

With today's 'online unveiling' artist Robert Shetterly portrays NSA whistleblower in historic light
- Jon Queally, staff writer
CommonDreams, July 18, 2013
Artist and author Robert Shetterlybest known for his work depicting and sharing the stories of truth telling luminaries from throughout US historyhas today released the most recent work in his Americans Who Tell the Truth series with this portrait of NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden.
In an exclusive online 'unveiling' on Common Dreams, Shetterly says that he began painting the portrait almost immediately after seeing the first interview Snowden gave to journalists Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras more than five weeks ago.
SNIP...
Daniel Ellsberg told Common Dreams today that he welcomes Snowden to the club of US whistleblowers painted by Shetterly. He said Snowden's case exemplifies the courage of those who use their unique position of access to act on behalf of the greater society. He did so, explains Ellsberg, knowing full well the costs to his individual liberty would be great, but acted anyway.
"I see Edward Snowden as someone who has chosen, at best, exile from the country he loveswith a serious risk of his assassination by agents of his government or life in prison (in solitary confinement)to awaken us to the danger of our loss of democracy to a total-surveillance state," Ellsberg said.
CONTINUED w links...
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/07/18-15
Octafish
(55,745 posts)pacalo
(24,857 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Gotta be a brave person to go public with criticism of the warmongers and banksters.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)It's an incredible privilege to be included.
pacalo
(24,857 posts)
juajen
(8,515 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)ReRe
(12,189 posts)"I'd rather have roses on my table that diamonds on my neck."
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)ReRe
(12,189 posts)It's why studying history is so important. We need to look through that little "peep-hole" into the past to hear the timeless words of those great American thinkers. Those great poets of democracy. You know, if we remember nothing but their names and these little jewels of truth, we will keep history alive.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)ReRe
(12,189 posts)ReRe.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)"Be realistic. Demand the impossible!" ~ 1968 Paris Anarchists
navarth
(5,927 posts)She was real class. It felt like an honor just to look at those portraits.
Octafish, as usual your posts are extraordinary. Good on ya.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)
dkf
(37,305 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)
''Waterbugger'' (1998) by Robbie Conal
Hubert Flottz
(37,726 posts)Doctor ~ "Don't worry Mrs. Nixon, somebody just bugged your Watergate!"
Octafish
(55,745 posts)
"Im not for women, frankly, in any job. I dont want any of them around. Thank God we dont have any in the Cabinet . I dont even think women should be educated . I dont think women should ever be allowed to vote even." -- Richard M Nixon
http://www.dcbar.org/for_lawyers/resources/publications/washington_lawyer/june_2012/books.cfm
Hubert Flottz
(37,726 posts)I laughed for days when he got the boot.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)...works by Mark Lombardi, the artist who documented social networks through his work, including the Bush-Bath-bin Ladin connection in 1999. The next year he was dead, a suicide. After September 11, the FBI showed up at the gallery to photograph his work.

George W. Bush, Harken Energy and Jackson Stephens
c. 1979-90, 5th Version
1999
"ObsessiveGenerous"
Toward a Diagram of Mark Lombardi
by Frances Richard
wburg.com
Who is James R. Bath?
A nodal point in Mark Lombardi's drawing George W. Bush, Harken Energy and Jackson Stephens c. 1979-90, 5th Version, 1999, James R. Bath appears in the upper lefthand corner of the 16 1/2" x 41" piece of paper. The spatial syntax of Lombardi's drawingswhich map in elegantly visual terms the secret deals and suspect associations of financiers, politicians, corporations, and governmentsdictates that the more densely lines ray out from a given node, the more deeply that figure is embroiled in the tale Lombardi tells. Thirteen lines originate with or point to James R. Bath, more than any other name presented. Among those linked to this obscure yet central character are George W. Bush, Jr., George H.W. Bush, Sr., Senator Lloyd Bentsen of Texas, Governor John B. Connally of Texas, Sheik Salim bin Laden of Saudi Arabia, and Sheik Salim's younger brother, Osama bin Laden.
The drawing is done on pale beige paper, in pencil. It follows a time-line, with dates arrayed across three horizontal tiers. These in turn support arcs denoting personal and corporate alliances, the whole comprising a skeletal resume of George W. Bush's career in the oil business. In other words, the drawing, like all Lombardi's work, is a post-Conceptual reinvention of history painting, a document of factually verifiable yet extremely pared-down relationships limned in a double light of international fame and cryptic realpolitik. Or rather, the light is triple. For, though he possessed the instincts of a private eye and the acumen of a systems-analyst, Lombardi was of course an artist, and from the raw material of wire-service reports and books by political correspondents, he drew not only chronicles of covert, high-stakes trade, but technically pristine and sensually compelling visual forms. His project's sources are profoundly art-historical, even as they are obviously journalistic, and the creative tension between abstracted, self-propelling image and direct verbal communication propels his work. Delicately balanced and gracefully enlaced, these lines and circles read from across the room as purely retinal explorations of two-dimensional space. Their stylized complexity, however, lures the eye in, to a point where language registers as legible and referentiality asserts itself through the scrim of form. A narrative emerges. Looking shifts toward reading, and Lombardi's one-two punch lands.
James R. Bath, it turns out, is a Texas businessman, a sometime aeronautics broker whose firm, Skyway Aircraft Leasing, LTD., was a Cayman Islands front amassing money for use by Oliver North in the Iran-Contra affair. Bath also served as an agent minding American interests for a quartet of Saudi Arabian billionaires, one of whom was Sheik Salim bin Laden, the oldest son and heir of Sheik Mohammed bin Laden, father of fifty-four children including Osama. According to reports by the Houston Chronicle, the Wall Street Journal, Time, and others, Bath did business in his own name but with the Saudis' money; tax records indicate that he collected a fee of 5% on their multimillion dollar American investments. In 1979, Bath contributed $50,000 to Arbusto Energy, a limited-partnership controlled by George W. Bush. As Bath had little capital of his own, oil insiders trace the funds to his silent partners, specifically Salim bin Laden. Such cash infusions from Bath's client sheiks and George H.W. Bush's cartel cronies could not, however, prop Arbusto up. The venture collapsed in 1981 and merged into the Spectrum 7 Energy Corporation. Spectrumstill with W. at the helmevolved through more near-failures and mergers into Harken Energy, which, in 1990, embarked upon a sweetheart deal to drill oil wells in Bahrainthis regardless of the fact that Harken had never drilled an overseas well, nor a marine well of any kind. Oil industry cognoscenti again assume that the Bahrain contract was orchestrated as a favor from the Saudis to the American chief executive and his family. The favor paid. On June 20, 1990, George W. Bush sold two-thirds of his Harken stock at $4 per share. Eight days later, Harken finished the second quarter with losses of $23 million; the stock promptly lost 75% of its value, finishing at just over $1 per share. Two months later, Iraq invaded Kuwait, and the Gulf War began. All these events are cited in Lombardi's drawing.
Meanwhile, another Bath associate, Sheik Khalid bin Mafouz, was involved in the collapse (in July, 1991) of the Bank of Credit and Commerce, International, better known as BCCI. Among the sins of the Pakistani-owned BCCI were money-laundering on behalf of Colombian druglords, arms brokering, bribery, and aid to terrorists; when this cabal came unglued, millions of investors in seventy-three countries lost their life-savings. Although Bath was not personally implicated in the BCCI fiasco, an estranged business partner claims that that he, Bath, had been recruited to the CIA in 1976-77 by George Bush, Sr., after serving in the Texas Air National Guard as the buddy of George Bush, Jr. (in 1972, the two young men narrowly escaped arrest for cocaine possession). Bath's putative CIA connections, the Agency's operations in the Middle East, and the adventures of BCCI thus compose a kind of symmetry. The byzantine saga of BCCI's demise is plotted in the drawing that is perhaps Lombardi's masterwork, BCCI-ICIC-FAB, c. 1972-1991, (4th Version), 1996-2000. Unveiled in the landmark P.S. 1 exhibition "Greater New York" in 2000, this piece signaled Lombardi's arrival at the cusp of art world fame; it is now in the permanent collection of the Whitney Museum. A wall-size panel schematizing twenty years of suspect alliances amongst scores of players, BCCI-ICIC-FAB was the last major work the artist made before his death.
For those who followed the BCCI scandalor the Harken Energy/insider trading scandal, or the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro scandal, or the Lincoln Savings & Loan scandal, or any of Lombardi's pet juggernautsthese diagrams summarize rather than amend available knowledge. He was always careful to explain that he did not conduct primary investigations, but culled his information exclusively from the public record; a basic Internet search yields multiple references to the Bath/Bush/bin Laden connection. However, ferreting out and adding up in one's own head the myriad fragments scattered across the infotainment megascape is a very different experience from standing before Lombardi's rhythmic plots. In the strangely contemplative and yet galvanizing presence of these images, the graphic equilibrium with which he invests his subjects is transformative. To track these events in the context of the drawings is to experience their import freshly, to undergo a shock of mixed recognition and surprise.
CONTINUED...
http://www.wburg.com/0202/arts/lombardi.html
A particularly relevant detail:

More detail on the artist and his work:
Mark Lombardi and the Ecstasy of Conspiracy
Michael Bierut
With the 40th anniversary of the assassination of JFK freshly behind us, our abiding romance with conspiracy theories seems more ardent than ever. And one of the most remarkable expressions of that romance is on view at The Drawing Center in New York, "Global Networks," an exhibition of the work of Mark Lombardi. In an age where we all dimly sense that The Truth Is Out There, Lombardi's extraordinary drawings aim to provide all the answers.
Although Lombardi's work has combined the mesmerizing detail of the engineering diagram and the obsessive annotation of the outsider artist, the man was neither scientist nor madman. Armed with a BA in art history, he began as a researcher and archivist in the Houston fine arts community with a passing interest in corporate scandal, financial malfeasance, and the hidden web of connections that seemed to connect, for instance, the Mafia, the Vatican bank, and the 1980's savings and loan debacle. His initial explorations were narrative, but in 1993 he made the discovery that some kinds of information are best expressed diagrammatically.
The resulting body of work must be seen to be believed an admittedly oxymoronic endorsement of subject matter of such supreme skepticism. Lombardi's delicate tracings, mostly in black pencil with the occasional red accent, cover enormous sheets of paper (many over four feet high and eight feet long), mapping the deliriously Byzantine relationships of, say, Oliver North, Lake Resources of Panama, and the Iran-Contra operation, or Global International Airways and the Indian Springs State Bank of Kansas City. Because the work visualizes connections rather than causality, Lombardi was able to take the same liberties as Harry Beck's 1933 map for the London Underground, freely arranging the players to create gorgeous patterns: swirling spheres, hopscotching arcs, wheels within wheels.
Lombardi was indeed an enthusiastic student of information design, a reader of Edward Tufte and a collector of the charts of Nigel Holmes. But if the goal of information design is to make things clear, Lombardi's drawings, in fact, do the opposite. The hypnotic miasma of names, institutions, corporations and locations that envelop each drawing demonstrates nothing if not the inherent -- the intentional -- unknowability of each of these networks. Like Rube Goldberg devices, their only meaning is their ecstatic complexity; like Hitchcockian McGuffins, understanding them is less important than simply knowing they exist.
Lombardi, who was born in 1951 and died in 2000, did not live to see today's historical moment, where his worldview seems not eccentric but positively prescient. His drawing BCCI-ICIC & FAB, 1972-91 (4th version) was studied in situ at the Whitney Museum by F.B.I. agents in the days after 9/11; reportedly, consultants to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security previewed the current show at the Drawing Center. One wonders whether he would have felt vindicated or alarmed by this kind of attention.
The catalog for the exhibition, which was organized by Robert Hobbs and Independent Curators International, cannot possibly do the drawings justice. But it may be worth it for the extended captions alone, each one of which could serve as an outline for a pretty decent John leCarre novel. And in what other art catalog could you find an index where (under the Cs alone) one finds Canadian Armament and Research Development Establishment; capitalism; Capone, Al; Castro, Fidel, and conceptual art? And it is in the catalog that one finds, tossed away almost casually in a footnote, the following fact: "The police report cited suicide by hanging as the reason for Mark Lombardi's death. The door to his studio was locked from the inside." That last detail is an all-too-common device in mystery novels, where it inevitably raises the same question: yes, that's how it seems, but what really happened? Mark Lombardi's work tries, valiantly, to answer that very question.
11.24.03
http://observatory.designobserver.com/entry.html?entry=1697
Now they've got automatic programs to do that stuff. On us. And on our dime.
annabanana
(52,804 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)
...Another one who stood up to defend the Constitution.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)
A nice detail, Rivera put Ike's face on the bomb that metaphorically made the coup possible.

For those new to, uh, like history:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Guatemala_KH.html

I don't mean huh as in WTF. I meant a more relaxed huh like "huh... look at that."
Art just hit me in the gut. Don't know why.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)
Felix "Iran-Contra" Rodriguez.
When Che Guevara was executed in La Higuera, one CIA official was present--a Cuban-American operative named Félix Rodríguez. Rodríguez, who used the codename "Félix Ramos" in Bolivia and posed as a Bolivian military officer, was secretly debriefed on his role by the CIA's office of the Inspector General in June, 1975. (At the time the CIA was the focus of a major Congressional investigation into its assassination operations against foreign leaders.) In this debriefing--discovered in a declassified file marked 'Félix Rodríguez' by journalist David Corn--Rodríguez recounts the details of his mission to Bolivia where the CIA sent him, and another Cuban-American agent, Gustavo Villoldo, to assist the capture of Guevara and destruction of his guerrilla band. Rodríguez and Villoldo became part of a CIA task force in Bolivia that included the case officer for the operation, "Jim", another Cuban American, Mario Osiris Riveron, and two agents in charge of communications in Santa Clara. Rodríguez emerged as the most important member of the group; after a lengthy interrogation of one captured guerrilla, he was instrumental in focusing the efforts to the 2nd Ranger Battalion focus on the Villagrande region where he believed Guevara's rebels were operating. Although he apparently was under CIA instructions to "do everything possible to keep him alive," Rodríguez transmitted the order to execute Guevara from the Bolivian High Command to the soldiers at La Higueras--he also directed them not to shoot Guevara in the face so that his wounds would appear to be combat-related--and personally informed Che that he would be killed. After the execution, Rodríguez took Che's Rolex watch, often proudly showing it to reporters during the ensuing years.
SOURCE: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB5/
Small world, ja.
Now Ive seen everything.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Does this one get the point across better?

Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)
Now, the same secret group of people who got away with torture can listen in to us talk about them. Neat, huh?
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)Aparently they picked up one of the spooks tried in absentia in Italy for a rendition job.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)The Italians were furious some of their citizens disappeared from their country. For a while at least, they tried for justice. When Silvio couldn't guarantee their immunity, the Company men disappeared from Italy.
Ah. "Rendition," another great euphemism for tyranny.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/18/robert-seldon-lady-arrested-panama_n_3618062.html
Wanted to ask: What are your thoughts on the case, Hoot?
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)Nor would one allow torture to go unpunished.
I hope the bastard ends up in Italy making gravel.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)It's kinda like a battered wife syndrome ...they keep trusting and coming back for more.
MinM
(2,650 posts)and some of his 'revelations' appear to have been overhyped
but...
Shining a spotlight on the NSA is a good thing.
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)You think there's room to put up Ethel and Julius Rosenberg also?
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)AllINeedIsCoffee
(772 posts)
Octafish
(55,745 posts)
Is that you, Sheldon? Dude?
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Gen Clapper, Herr Mueller, Comey and Alexander. Do you genuflect or do a sieg heil. Isnt authoritarianism wonderful?
Civilization2
(649 posts)railsback
(1,881 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)
This guy is free.
railsback
(1,881 posts)NO ONE should be above the law.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)This vintage Tom Tomorrow from 1992:

Contrast and compare with this modern piece, circa 2004:

Or, you can read the words: Know your BFEE.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Howard Zinn, John Brown, Rachel Corrie, Eugene V. Debs, Emma Goldman, Walt Whitman, Rosa Parks, Noam Chomsky, Edward Said, Major General Smedley Butler, Amy Goodman, and Henry David Thoreau.
Wicked cool.
mc51tc
(219 posts)and many others!! They are all inspiring to look at.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)I'm going to have to read up on some biographies.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower
Snowden has no crediblity, and deserves no thanks.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023288332
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)Thanks for the first link, though.
NealK
(7,162 posts)"What youthe only people at this point who are defending the NSA are the hardcore neocons in the Republican Party, people like Lindsey Graham and John McCain and the like, who see national security as the only value that matters, and the really hardcore Obama loyalists and Democrats, who defend anything the Obama administration does and have become the loudest proponents, ironically, of the massive secret surveillance state and of the governments power to listen in. So those two groupsRepublican neocons, Democratic Party loyalistsare at this point the only real defenders the NSA has left."
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/18/glenn_greenwald_growing_backlash_against_nsa
RetroLounge
(37,250 posts)You poor thing...
RL
flamingdem
(40,891 posts)and he's much thinner
Whisp
(24,096 posts)a black marker to the moosetache area.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)shawn703
(2,712 posts)Kind of a warped sense of justice exhibited by some here. While he did reveal information important for national discussion in relation to domestic spying, some people think he therefore deserves a pass for what he revealed concerning foreign surveillance to the countries being targeted. I guess it's no different than Republicans cheering the Bush war criminals escaping justice because they did other stuff they approved of.
Civilization2
(649 posts)You live in a movie and have no grasp on reality. The NSA and the current police-state corporate-military government that feeds it, is evil and anti-democratic, and anti-american. Free people in an open society do not tollerate this bullsht. The back lash is now.
shawn703
(2,712 posts)You should have seen that I thought what he revealed concerning domestic surveillance was indeed imporatant. If you're asking whether I think we need warrants to spy on other countries, then my reply would be of course not.
Civilization2
(649 posts)I see no reason that a publicly funded program, ANY OF THEM, should be secret from the people that payed for it,. it is simple. There is clearly no need for this, and if you think otherwise you have been reading or watching too many spy dramas. We need to stop thinking in terms of politicians making decisions for us,. and more about us making decisions that are enacted by politicians. Without clear information there is no democracy. Secret anything is anti-democratic and stupid to boot.
shawn703
(2,712 posts)Why should the public know the IP addresses of computers in China that are being monitored? Do you really think the public can know this information without China also knowing it? If the public knew we were monitoring Ibrahim Saeed Ahmed's phone conversations, don't you think Osama bin Laden would have found out too and taken action knowing that his courier was compromised?
Civilization2
(649 posts)It is like creeping around looking in you neighbor's windows, and then wondering why they don't like you.
There really is no need for any covert spying, outside of paranoid fantasies. Keeping a tab of happenings, monitoring news, and word on the street is legit, and legal, hacking computer and phone networks is illegal and morally bankrupt. This type of activity does little of use, and makes enemies, and rightfully so.
shawn703
(2,712 posts)I much prefer the world where we monitored Ibrahim Saeed Ahmed's phone leading to Osama bin Laden no longer being a threat. I'm actually a little surprised that some people here think it's unfair that we found him that way. If you could have convinced him and other members of Al Qaeda to put up signs or something so we can discover their locations with open and legal monitoring, then maybe I'd have a little more sympathy for that position.
Civilization2
(649 posts)"getting Bin Laden" was not win for anyone, except maybe his funders/handlers who lost control of him, and were pissed about it. So the best justification for covert activity you can point to is a rogue creation of said structures? I think that really does make my point for me; Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to device.
shawn703
(2,712 posts)Oh wait, you can't because they're dead.
Civilization2
(649 posts)For thinking people. who know what they saw, getting one guy, who may or may not have had anything to do with the NYC "terror event" is a non-solution.
Ending the secret spook agencies that made all that happen is a better one. Stopping the rise of the corporate-military and their anti-democracy is even more useful. But keep towing the line, if it make you feel better.
shawn703
(2,712 posts)Okay, now I know who I'm having a discussion with.
Civilization2
(649 posts)Sad, and more than a little pathetic.
Your only point to defend the "security"-state has been Bin Laden, and yet he was the creation of said security-state. Hence ending the silly secrete spying and manipulation "agencies", would have not given rise to your only "problem". QED
MelungeonWoman
(502 posts)^^^ OMG this.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)Why were you doing what you were doing? Did you break the window to gain access to the car on a scalding hot day to release an animal, or child trapped inside? Or did you break the window to get something off the seat that was valuable? What was the motivation, the reason for your actions?
My Father taught me that doing the right thing sometimes meant doing the wrong thing. The car example was one he used to help me understand the situations I would be faced with as a man. Would I stand by and watch a woman get beaten? Or would I stand before the woman and defend her by risking myself. It is illegal to initiate contact with another person, but it is immoral to stand aside and witness an individual beaten and do nothing. My Father taught me the higher law was the moral law, the morally just law.
So those of us who cheer what Snowden did are no different than the Rethugs cheering the Bushies in your world view. I find that sad. Because the Bushes were cheered for launching wars of aggression, lying about those wars, and the justification. While Snowden is cheered for exposing the truth. I thought that as men, we had a duty to seek the truth, to find it and bring it to our fellow men/women.
I thought as Democrats, we reveled in the truth, and we celebrated those who spoke it. Dr. Martin Luther King has a day where we all take a moment to think about the brilliance of his statements. Gandhi is revered despite being a criminal, leading an insurrection against the British Empire. He led that insurrection with passive disobedience, and with truth, and with purity of purpose. We celebrate these people for their dedication to an ideal.
You on the other hand, use false equivalence to denigrate a man who under the best of circumstances, will never be able to come home again. Spending his life in exile, looking over his shoulder, because the forces you equate are the ones that want him dead, silenced, because truth is a bad thing to them, and you. I'll take your assertion, because I can see the source, and the source doesn't rise to the level of dedication, of devotion to ideals that the greats in History have. Snowden is no Gandhi, but he's no Bush either. Now, if I choose to support those who tell truth, then that does reflect on me. While you join those who celebrate fear and lies, I hope it doesn't reflect on you.
shawn703
(2,712 posts)About the surveillance we perform on them. That's just silly. Do you believe all spying is wrong? Even when we eavesdropped on Ibrahim Saeed Ahmed and used that information to help determine the location of Osama bin Laden?
So why should we forgive Snowden revealing to foreign countries how and where we target them for surveillance? Wouldn't it make sense to assume that these countries would now take countermeasures to prevent us from surveilling them in the same way? How will that set back our intelligence efforts, and in what way will that harm our national security?
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)How many spies did Gandhi need to bring the British to their knees? How many spies did MLK have when he ignited a generation and brought the question to the front of the national discussion? We have plenty of examples from history of people acting honorably, and many more of people acting dishonorably. Those rights we assert to spy and influence other Governments are why many in South America hate us so adamantly today. We refuse to turn our back on the same tried and failed efforts.
As long as we act like the bully boy, trying through intimidation, and threats, and even retaliation, we continue to be a uniting force. The uniting is the rest of the world uniting against us. We are not blessed by any deity merely because of our geographic birth place. We are blessed, or damned by our actions, and the motivations behind those actions.
We are rapidly becoming the next evil that the world will rise up against. It may not be the motivation behind our actions, but it is what the world sees.
Remember that The Buddha taught that there are three people in each of us. The one that others see, the one we see ourselves as, and that which we truly are. Do you know who we are as a nation? We are closer to the truth now, because of Snowden. We are revealed, and if we don't like the image that puts forth, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
A prediction for you to consider. Europe will be holding elections before long. I bet the spying of the Americans will be an issue, and I bet the politician that promises to be most diligent in protecting the people from American invasions of the privacy of the citizens will be the victor. If that happens, ask yourself if the ends justifies the means. If the end of our long alliance with Europe, South America, and Asia is worth the notional security that comes from reading other people's mail?
I was taught never to take an action I could not justify as moral, and honorable. We used to write that we were acting that way as a nation. It's a shame we ignore it now.
The ends never justify the means.
shawn703
(2,712 posts)Unfortunately I don't see the world as being as enlightened as you do.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)shawn703
(2,712 posts)Or are you suggesting that people we agree with should see a different form of justice than the people we don't agree with?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Killing innocent people, lying a country into war and torturing is not the same as releasing secret documents.
Similarly, "justice" does not mean simply prosecution of the law. I am not suggesting he gets a pass. I am saying that I think his seeking to avoid prosecution, which would result in life in prison or the death penalty, is justified.
That is quite distinct from republicans cheering war criminals escaping even an investigation or charge.
shawn703
(2,712 posts)Which can only be applied one time, regardless of how heinous the crime is. For those of us who feel the death penalty is never justified no matter the crime, someone can only serve a life sentence one time. Whether that person killed one person or killed a thousand people, that ultimate penalty can only be applied once. So no, releasing secret documents that may or may not end up costing American lives (and nobody can say definitely that it won't - who knows what we may have been able to find on those Chinese computers before they were told we were watching them) may not be as severe as lying an entire country into war and torturing people. But even though the war criminal committed a much worse crime in terms of severity, you still can't punish him any more than you could anyone else who gets a life sentence (or death sentence).
Snowden isn't any more justified in fleeing prosecution to avoid life in prison than anyone else who would flee prosecution to avoid life in prison - unless that person didn't commit the crime he is accused of but somehow there is overwhelming evidence that he did (by framing, for example). But I haven't seen Snowden claim he was framed and didn't pass information to the Chinese, so I don't see how he is justified.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)shawn703
(2,712 posts)Nice try though!
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)How about the draft resistors?
shawn703
(2,712 posts)You'll have to look back to the 20th century for one and the 19th century for the other. And if you think a law is unjust, wouldn't it be better in the fight to repeal an unjust law to have a current case to draw attention to it? If you and Snowden believe the Espionage Act should be repealed so state secrets can flow freely to foreign nations without fear of reprisal, wouldn't it make sense for him to come to America so he can do the whole "poor me, I should be able to reveal state secrets" routine so Americans will demand that the law be changed? That's what a real hero would do, change things for everyone not just look out for himself, right?
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)I mean, weren't they just "looking out for themselves".
If he had stayed here and heroically faced the music, he'd be just another Bradly Manning locked up in a cell and silenced.
shawn703
(2,712 posts)Seeing the fates of those who did face trial and punishment for their "crimes" that caused them to finally say enough and demand that there be change.
mc51tc
(219 posts)"Prometheus among the cannibals." by Rebecca Solnit
http://www.thenation.com/article/175339/letter-edward-snowden#
"Pity the country that requires a hero, Bertolt Brecht once remarked, but pity the heroes too. They are the other homeless, the people who dont fit in. They are the ones who see the hardest work and do it, and pay the price we charge those who do what we cant or wont."
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)malokvale77
(4,879 posts)Your posts are always enlightening.
I wish I had all the portraits from that site. They would line the walls of my home.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to stand up for what is right.
Very nice portrait and quote.
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)No one's supposed to be focusing on the messenger.
Unless it's to bow down at his feet.
DemocratsForProgress
(545 posts)Sorry, had to get that in here before someone comes along and suggests it seriously.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)There are many issues overlapping and at play. It is not *all* about Snowden. It wasn't about him at all initially, but the reaction of the US has insisted on making it about him. But, that is just one part, one that you could ignore since it chaps you so.
The other, more important, aspects are the policies and programs of the US. And, the aggressiveness with which they are going after Snowden.
Walk and chew gum.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)It is totally contrary to their mission.
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.
- Joseph Goebbels, fascist propagandist
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)pnwmom
(110,261 posts)Democratic site, there has to be at least one place where people who support the Democratic President can be assured they won't run into any hate talk.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)pnwmom
(110,261 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)I voted for him twice and went to his rally in Tampa ...and that's all he is going to get from me.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Every time I read a post of what I consider an unfair and unreasonable smear of Snowden, I am all the more convinced that he did all of us a great service. The never ending chorus of paid mouthpieces will never change my mind.
markiv
(1,489 posts)markiv
(1,489 posts)as long as Obama doesnt hunt him down, and put him in a gulag
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)Edward Snowden should be, hands down, Time's Man of The Year.
DevonTexas 17 hours ago −
And then "Man of the Century" when that comes up.
tytechortz lingum 20 hours ago −
We are starting to get a lot of good candidates to replace the tyrants on Mt. Rushmore.
Tredrea 20 hours ago −
Put this on a T shirt. I'll buy one and wear it with prideat least until some maccho idiot punches me out
lariokie * 3 hours ago −
Or, until the Obomber Gestapo hauls you (us) of to the gulag.
jo 20 hours ago −
I think this would be great on a new postage stamp.
Betty Kreeger 12 hours ago −
And he should win the Nobel Peace Prize too.
lariokie 11 hours ago −
The pigs who control everything we see, hear, learn, believe, eat, drink, and where or whether we get to work, have slowly but surely slipped a brick out of the edifice of our Constitution for the past 50 years. We have done nothing about it but maybe whine a little. This juggernaut is immune to whining. So let's try something different (for us) and take to the streets with a few hundreds of thousands of our political pals. That method has overturned an impressive number of recent oligarchies, despots, and dictators in places where governments were significantly more repressive than those of Bushmaster and Obanker. Edward Snowden has put his ass directly on the line to inform us of the fascist intention of our governement to control us. Seems the least we could do is take it to the streets. (no thumbs up for this one, sad...)
flamingdem
(40,891 posts)or a shrink!
WillyT
(72,631 posts)BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)looks like Mr. Fish's style.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)It is now on my Bookmark Toolbar so that I can browse there when I need inspiration!
DURec!
N_E_1 for Tennis
(13,032 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)I'm looking forward to the threads about how Robert Shetterly is Rand Paul's favorite artist and the various contents of his garage.
Great thread, Octafish. kicking to keep it going
RetroLounge
(37,250 posts)or he's a racist, or something.
I'm sure a big blue link will show up soon to set us straight.
RL
