Zimmerman was holding Trayvon by the hoodie when Z fell backwards, pulling TM down with him

[Duer 157099]

I'm so sick of the Z story being told as the "official" version, so I'm putting this version out there, based on logic, Rachel's testimony and some astute DUers (ht: SoCalDem).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3302824

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023245488

1) Z came up behind Trayvon as TM was "getting away" and grabbed him by his sweatshirt on the right side (drawstring pulled all the way down). Z grabbed with his left hand because his gun was in his right hand, already drawn because that's what a wannabe cop would do.

2) Trayvon swung around with his elbow up (do it; stand up and have someone grab you near your shoulder and see what your elbow does) and smacked Z in the nose, right side. This was right when Rachel heard him say "Get offa me! Get offa me!" (let me go).

3) The blow to Z's nose knocked him off his feet and he fell backwards, still holding onto Trayvon's sweatshirt (so he wouldn't get away, because they always do). He falls down on the pavement and smacks the back of his head.

4) Trayvon falls with him because Z is still holding the shirt, and when Trayvon's body hits Z's, his head smacks the ground a second time.

5) Z is still holding the sweatshirt, pointing the gun at him and telling him "you're gonna die tonight motherfucker"

6) Trayvon is screaming at the top of his lungs. This is when John Good sees them with Trayvon on top.

7) Z shoots Trayvon.

You know the rest.

[AndyA]

1. Makes more sense to me than the version the jury heard from the defense.

I'm sure members of the DU George Zimmerman Fan Club will be along soon to dispute this. (They're everywhere it seems.)

K&R

[janlyn]

2. When I saw GZs injuries

I thought immediatly about the time my brother tackled me from the side.Being bigger than I and weighting more he hit the ground first on his back and busted his head open, then I landed on top and the back of my head hit his nose.

[hedgehog]

20. Except here GZ hit his head on a lawn sprinkler!

[JDPriestly]

48. Yes. Fights with my sisters. I remember them.

We were just little kids pulling hair and clothes, tickling, biting, kicking, wrestling. We were all very close in age, but I was small and got the bad end of the struggles. That's why I do not believe Zimmerman's story. Trayvon Martin was a big kid, and he probably did not want to be followed, but why would he start a physical fight with a stranger unless there was some indication from Zimmerman that trouble was ahead.

People just don't do that.

Trayvon Martin was a kid. He was suspended from school for having traces of marijuana in a plastic bag. He also did graffiti, apparently. He is alleged to have twittered about violence, but I don't find any verifiable reports of starting fights.

Martin was suspended by Miami-Dade County schools because traces of marijuana were found in an empty plastic baggie in his book bag, family spokesman Ryan Julison said. Martin was shot Feb. 26 by Zimmerman while he was visiting Sanford with his father.

Family members and activists stressed that the teen's suspension was irrelevant to the case.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57404732-504083/trayvon-martin-update-school-marijuana-suspension-no-criminal-record/

He was accused of conduct that was unusual for him. If he had been an ever-ready fighter, we would have heard all about it. Remember, accusations from people who do not come forward to talk about specific situations have no credibility.

[ileus]

3. Almost exactly what I believe to have happened.

[mzmolly]

4. Very plausible.

Much more so than Georgie's "he attacked me" after running, scenario.

[chowder66]

5. This is how I have seen this and It makes even more sense now

I too believe that Z grabbed him at first and I have seen just a mention of the drawstring which I could not find again so this really does fit the scenario well in my opinion.
I believed that it was also an elbow to the nose and something wasn't right about the head-smashing. I believed it was hard debris in the grass that Z got when falling to the ground. I have always thought Z exaggerated the fight/injuries for cover.

Thank you for the run-down.

[grasswire]

6. if I'm following you....

.....Trayvon was shot while on top of George. But no blood on George. And how did Trayvon get into the position face down, hands under?

[Duer 157099]

9. The hoodie was away from Trayvon's skin when the shot was fired, so his blood

would not get on Z anyway. The shot causes Trayvon to fall forward onto Z, probably causing him to smack his head a 3rd time.

Z rolls Trayvon's body off of him and that is how Trayvon ended up face down on the grass.

ETA: or, to use Z's words, Z "shimmies" out from under Trayvon's body, leaving it face down in the grass

[mbuch64]

47. I wondered about that too

How could there be no blood from Trayvon on Zimmerman?
Then I saw photos of Trayvon's hoodie and it was not blood soaked and in the crime scene photo of Trayvon after he had been rolled over onto his
back by the first police on the scene, there was no visible blood on Trayvon's
chest. Trayvon was shot in the heart with a hollow point round. Would that not stop his heart from pumping blood at the moment he was shot?

[DevonRex]

7. That's always been my opinion. Zimmerman had his gun out. Grabbed

Trayvon's sweatshirt. Trayvon struggled to get away, screamed help, get off me. They fell. The struggle was always for Trayvon to get away and to keep the gun pointed away from him. It's hard to do both things at the same time.

[malaise]

8. Makes sense to me

Time will catch up with George Zimmerman.

Can't wait to read the next chapter of his life.

[SoCalMusicLover]

32. I'm Sorry He Will Have Another Chapter

POS does not deserve one.

[Maraya1969]

10. And why didn't the prosecution offer up this scenario? Or any scenario?

[Duer 157099]

11. Not one fucking clue

It is shameful.

[MH1]

15. Because they didn't really care about winning the case.

I thought that was quite evident.

[Cronus Protagonist]

71. Yup. That was my impression too.

It was like a warped To Kill A Mockingbird -- Jem got shot, Boo Radley didn't show up and Z had Atticus Finch as a lawyer. Jury and police, well, not much change there, was there?

[arthritisR_US]

83. Exactly, a show trial to placate the masses...

who the feck do they think they are fooling?

[alsame]

17. The legal analysts on TV

were constantly asking that question - why didn't they present their own version of events?

IMO, they did the absolute bare minimum.

[pintobean]

19. Because it's not supported by the evidence.

[Maraya1969]

30. And the defense's argument was?

[Duer 157099]

34. Let's talk about the evidence

1) Z telling police dispatch that "they always get away" and that he was following Trayvon

2) Rachel hears Trayvon talking with the guy who was following him ("Why you following me?&quot

3) the right drawstring on Trayvon's hoodie was pulled all the way down, as if someone had grabbed and pulled it (as in, from behind; grabbed at hoodie, got sweatshirt plus drawstring)

4) Rachel's testimony of Travyon yelling "Get offa me! Get offa me!" (which means: LET GO OF ME)

5) Z's bloody nose consistent with an elbow hit from the right side, same side as drawstring pulled

6) Z's head injuries, consistent with him falling backwards after being hit in the nose with an elbow, and pulling Trayvon down with him to land on top of him

Yep, you're right, there is no evidence to support this theory.

[calimary]

36. THIS.^^^^

Yeah. No evidence.

[secondvariety]

25. The prosecutor

was appointed by Scott. Nuff said.

[Skittles]

37. no one wanted to try the case

so the effort was dismal; still, it is a disgrace that any thinking person believed Zimmerman's RIDICULOUS story

[billh58]

57. Because the

racist assholes took a dive, and gave the defense a free rein to convince an equally racist jury that Zimmerman was the victim, and Trayvon was the aggressor.

The Koch Brothers-supported NRA and their right-wing gun hugger supporters couldn't let a white boy go down for killing a black kid, so the racist Florida judicial system allowed a another racist to get away with cold-blooded murder.

[GreenStormCloud]

76. You may wish to check statistics on FL SYG.

Since SYG was created there have been ten black on white SYG killings. Of those ten, 4 justified, 2 guilty, 4 pending. So it isn't automatically guilty if a black kills a white.

ETA: Link: http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/fatal-cases

[GreenStormCloud]

74. Prosecution has to PROVE what happened.

Speculation - and that is what this scenario is - won't get a conviction. The prosecution's job is to say, "The IS what happened." not "This is what could have happened."

[HiPointDem]

12. but the shot was straight 'from a midrange' distance. this doesn't seem to jibe with scenarios that

have them on the ground with t on top.

[Duer 157099]

13. But that piece of info does not fit with the "official" story

and yet the jury bought it.

I haven't worked that bit of info into my scenario yet, because I haven't studied it well enough.

[HiPointDem]

21. i wonder if there was some kind of skuffle that got them on the ground, martin got up & z shot

him to prevent him from 'getting away'.

i don't believe there was any significant fight because neither had any significant injury. and z's trip 'to look for an address' doesn't ring true at all. he continued looking for martin. he could have seen an address from his vehicle.

i believe he tried to detain martin in some way, why else would he keep stalking him after the police had been called? what did he plan to do if he found him?

[Maraya1969]

23. Also he had Martin held at gun point because that is when Martin was screaming. I can just imagine

the sick and twisted smile on Zimmerman's fat face as he held Martin up with a gun.

[alsame]

14. This is my belief also. And those MMA motions

that the neighbor John Good claims to have seen were Trayvon fighting to keep GZ's arms pinned down so he couldn't shoot. Remember, Good said he didn't see any impact, just the arm movements and he made the assumption it was an MMA beating.

Oh yeah, Trayvon's two other arms were smothering GZ and reaching for the gun.

[Duer 157099]

16. Exactly n/t

[MH1]

18. I didn't understand Good's using the term "MMA style"

I guess because I don't watch fights on tv and have no idea what "MMA style" means, but thought it was interesting given that Zimmerman was taking MMA classes.

But seriously, he couldn't really see that well to be sure what it was he was seeing, why is he saying "MMA style blows" at all, and not, "I saw the guy on top moving his arms a lot but I wasn't sure what he was doing"?

To me the guy who also looked bad in this trial was Good. (ironic name for that guy, huh). Just that point about his testimony alone makes it seem like he was crafting his testimony to support Z.

[alsame]

22. I had never even heard the term MMA

until this trial. I still don't know what it looks like. But I remember clearly that Good said he didn't see any actual contact, just arm movements. And he decided it looked like MMA.

A good prosecutor would have asked him to explain or even demonstrate what he thinks he saw and make the case it could have been something else, like Trayvon trying to keep GZ's arms down.

[dionysus]

73. MMA is a mixture or martial arts styles, and very big on ground grappling.

often to win a fight, rather than just knock someone out brawling on your feet, you go to the ground and try to get on top of your opponent like that.

[BobbyBoring]

39. Mixed martial Arts!

You and MH1 don't watch enough teevee I guess

[Spitfire of ATJ]

52. Here and I thought they were saying Zimmerman was a "Major, Major Asshole".

[alcibiades_mystery]

55. John Good sounded very much like an asshole who watches too much teevee

[Gman]

24. VERY likely scenario

Makes the most sense of anything I've seen written. Even if TV intentionally threw his elbow back knowing Z hsd grabbed him, he was well justified. After thinking about it, I would do the same to defend myself.

[lumpy]

38. Certainly makes more sense than Zimmermans embelished story.

This version explains the scratches on Zimmermans back of the head and the bloody nose.

[dkf]

26. Wouldn't it be the ballistic expert's burden to assert and prove that the hoodie was being grabbed?

Doesn't a pulled shirt have a higher bullet hole than one that was falling?

[heaven05]

27. just

as good/rational/logical/objective as any zimPIG apology I've read.

[MaeScott]

28. Makes more sense than Z's story. nt

[SoCalMusicLover]

29. The Truth

Very plausible. Unfortunately there are only 2 people who know what happened, and one of them is dead. The other made up a story because if he told the truth, he'd be in prison right now.

Killed in cold blood Mr. Martin was. I'd like to hear his story which would be much closer to the truth.

[DrewFlorida]

31. I'd say this is a logical explanation of what happened, I especially agree that the murder weapon...

was in the murderer's hand prior to the confrontation.

If only there had been a "Good Guy With a Gun" around to save the innocent Trayvon.

[kestrel91316]

33. Makes complete sense to me. Trayvon fought because Zimmy grabbed him.

[Raine]

35. I believe that is EXACTLY the way it all happened. nt

[zentrum]

40. Convincing.

I'll never buy the story that Z followed Trayvon without his gun drawn. Z does not have the character and courage for that. He followed, feeling empowered and protected, by a drawn gun.

Trayvon felt he was fighting for his life.

Also, not sure Z was knocked into the pavement at all. What he had on the back of this head was blades of grass. Grass does not grow on concrete. Why didn't the prosecution go into this anomaly? This is why Z had abrasions but not very severe ones. Not the kind you'd have from being actually knocked against concrete.

[chelsea0011]

41. Might as well put it out there

Nothing in this case bugs me more than the storyline of Martin attacking Zimmerman. It is. Entirely the defense storyline that somehow morphed into the facts.

[Sancho]

42. I thought something like this happened all along...

I thought GZ grabbed TM from behind also, and maybe TM's head hit GZ or he head butted him. GZ only hit the back of his head falling backwards, and then pulled TM down. When TM tried to get up he held his hoodie and shot him.

I can't understand why the prosecution didn't state some similar theory? The MMA trainer and fighting experts would have to say it was impossible to be punching people bare handed without any bruising or blood or DNA on your hands...and no defensive bruises or blood on anyone's arms either...

[BobbyBoring]

43. Best I've heard yet!

I have no doubt Z already had the gun drawn. That's what cowards do.

[LittleGirl]

44. The only part I don't agree with

is that Zimmerman is left handed. I saw him taking notes during the trial and he was using his left hand. or maybe that was a ruse?
Wouldn't he put the gun in his left hand and grab the hoodie with his right hand? Or maybe he didn't have the gun drawn until later?
Unfortunately for Travyon, we'll never know.

edit: spelling

[Duer 157099]

46. Z being left handed even makes this scenario more plausible

He grabbed with his left hand because 1) his gun was in his right hand, because he SHOOTS right handed (and thus, his holster on the right side) and 2) he is left handed.

[alsame]

49. He practiced with both hands. Read this:

Yesterday, Mark Ostermann testified that he and Zimmerman have practiced shooting with their “non-dominant” hands. “Whichever hand can get to the firearm, that’s the one you would use,” Osterman told the court. If Zimmerman’s “non-dominant” hand is the right one then why did the defense’s expert witness testify that Zimmerman was right-handed? After Di Maio’s very confident time on the stand, was that just a slip of the tongue?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/07/09/zimmerman-is-right-handed/

[ceonupe]

54. your shoting dominat hand is not always your writing hand

I know a few left hand shooters that shoot with their right hand dominant and have for ever.

Their is not always a relationship between the hand you write with and the hand you shoot with.


If zimmerman wore his holster as he described in the video he would be right hand dominant shooter.

[GreenStormCloud]

77. Try to buy a left-handed gun.

All firearms, except very expensive custom ones, are made for the right hand. So even left-handed shooters have to learn to shoot right handed.

[Travis_0004]

45. That is one hell of a theory

Do you also believe that the Italian Captain tripped into the lifeboat instead of helping people?

[tblue]

50. Even if he hadn't murdered Trayvon

GZ should go to jail for scaring a kid like that. Imagine how terrified poor Trayvon was! He saw the gun, he saw the hate, and he had no idea who this creep was following and accosting him. How would any of us feel? What would you think? Oh that poor baby!!!!!!!! Damn that useless blob. Please let him wind up in prison soon before he terrorizes another person. He belongs with his own murdering kind, not free to roam our streets frightening children while carrying a loaded gun.

Your account of events sure fits the evidence I have heard and seen. GZ's story was nothing but a lie starting with the first 911 call.

[sulphurdunn]

51. If an assailant

had struck you in the face hard enough to knock you down and was then sitting atop of you, most likely with with his knees on your arms, pounding your head into the ground repeatedly, you would have suffered enough damage to be virtually defenseless. The possibility of you pulling a gun and shooting him at that point is at best remote, even if you were one very tough customer.

[tblue]

53. And remember what an out of shape

inept bag of bones the defense & that MMA expert witness said GZ is supposed to be. He has ZERO skills despite months of training and working out. He was just one hopeless, helpless giant toddler that night, for all intents and purposes. Just couldn't do shit.

[lumpy]

62. Never bought the gym owners conclusion that Zimmerman was a helpless marshmallow.

Zimmerman has no problem when he was bouncer like throwing a woman against a wall.

[tblue]

81. Now he's Superman!

AND a saint!!!!

[moondust]

56. Plausible.

I had kind of thought Trayvon may have screamed bloody murder when surprised by the sight of Zimmerman's gun, and of course was then abruptly silenced when it discharged into his heart. I don't know what else would have prompted a sudden "death scream" like that except the sudden horror of impending doom. (This theory only changes the moment when the gun appeared. I'm not sure Trayvon would have continued to engage if the gun had appeared early in the encounter.)

Zimmerman had no reason to abruptly stop screaming for help and police since he claims he didn't know "the suspect" was dead and even tried to further subdue him after the shot.

[jimboss]

58. It sounds like it could have gone down that way

but Trayvon had already reached his home .

[Joe Hyperion]

59. Were Zimmerman's fingerprints found in Trayvon's hoodie?

You said Zimmerman was holding the hoodie. Did any fingerprint come out of that?

[Duer 157099]

61. A fingerprint on a sweatshirt?

Are you joking?

[Gravitycollapse]

66. It is possible to recover fingerprints and DNA from fabric.

http://scienceillustrated.com.au/blog/science/fingerprints-can-now-be-taken-from-fabric/

[Duer 157099]

67. You don't really think the Sanford PD went through all that trouble do you?

Based on everything else, I'd be willing to bet a while bunch that they didn't.

Not to mention that the clothing was packed in plastic bags, I believe, which the ME complained about.

[Gravitycollapse]

69. You implied that it wasn't possible. I'm telling you that it is.

[Boom Sound 416]

60. why don't you think the prosecution argued this theory or one like it?

[SaveAmerica]

63. Resulting in blood from Z's nose, no DNA on Trayvon and no blood on

Zimmerman's clothes (front of his shirt/jacket) because an elbow blow won't create as much blood as a broken nose.

I was thinking this also, after the elbow to the nose theory was presented in a thread I started yesterday, but I didn't want to bump my thread by responding (was getting out of control).

[SaveAmerica]

64. I see now that you linked to the thread ; ) I love when DUers form such

an amazing Detective Agency. Nice one!

And it goes with the idea of Trayvon saying 'get off, get off' as leave me alone, instead of actually physically getting off of him from a horizontal position as so many people assume he means.

[Duer 157099]

65. Ah, I should have given you a hattip as well for starting that thread

consider this one

[SaveAmerica]

68. Not needed, I love the path the investigative thinking took!

And by the way, if you watch the re-enactment tape again, Zimmerman pauses and hems and haws at those places where you have Zimmerman saying those things he declared that Trayvon said. I think it's my Mother's instinct that is picking up on where he is not telling the truth in that re-enactment.

[zencycler]

70. Alternate scenarios, if both considered possible, reasonable doubt still exists.

While it would have helped greatly if the prosecution put forth this, or ANY, alternate theory of what happened that night, then in addition to showing how the evidence matched their version of events, they'd have to show how some of the factors you've mentioned disprove Zimmerman's version.

In some cases, like the pulled drawstring, the factors you've mentioned might have equally occurred either under your theory or at any point during the type of event Zimmerman described. However, Rachel's testimony about Trayvon saying "get off, get off" doesn't seen to fit with Zimmerman's version of events.

So in addition to not presenting an alternate theory, this is where the prosecution fell short. They didn't do a better job of prepping Rachel to be more credible to that jury, and they didn't more effectively use or emphasize her statements of TM saying "get off" to disprove Zimmerman's version of events.

[dmr]

72. Wonder if the 7-11 video shows where Trayvon's draw-strings are at.

I hate, hate, hate that Zimmerman's self-serving story line is taken as gospel.

I've even wondered if Zimmerman slipped and fell on the wet grass, smacking his head or nose. Imagine how angry Zimmerman would have been if Trayvon laughed at him?

He didn't have to shoot Trayvon. It hurts every time I think of that moment. But, then again, that would leave a live witness to Zimmerman's exceptionally poor judgement.

[Duer 157099]

80. I looked but the resolution was just too low

But yeah, if that video could be enhanced to show that....

[Travis_0004]

82. Thats irrelevent

Zimmerman and martin were in a fight. It wouldn't be to unusual for a fight to mess up the draw strings on a hoodie, so that would not prove who started the fight.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

75. I am 100% convinced Zimmerman got out of the car specifically to detain Trayvon.

And once Trayvon started screaming (because there was a strange man who had followed him and now was trying to detain him), Zimmerman panicked and shot him.

[billh58]

78. And the racist Florida

judicial system allowed Zimmerman to get away with cold-blooded murder. Those who are defending Zimmerman's actions on this thread are attempting to justify the necessity for CCW and SYG from the NRA "gunz are the answer, so buy more" playbook, and have absolutely no empathy for the victims of gun violence.

[Spazito]

79. Good OP!

I have always believed this is more likely what happened. Zimmerman's version was never credible, imo.