Re: Martin/Zimmerman - why was / is there an effort to paint a picture that wasn't / isn't real?

[Skip Intro]

I have seen MSNBC purposely chop the Z/police call to show that Z offered TM's race info, only to later admit that wasn't the case.

I have seen CNN claim that Z was saying, "fucking c**n" only later to admit he was saying "fucking cold."

I have seen many here and in the media try to make this about white vs black, when in reality Z's skin is a light brown, just like most of the Hispanic people I've met. (He's certainly not European white, which is what most people mean when they say white)

I have seen the pic of TM as a 14 year old used over and over again, next to Z's pic, when in reality, the TM Z encountered was not a 14 year old, and didn't look like a 14 year old.

There are other examples.

I'm not taking up any side, simply asking.

Why were things reported as real when in fact they weren't real? Why were things manipulated to look a certain way when they weren't that way? Why was/is there an effort to paint a picture that varies from reality?

disclaimer: I personally don't know if Z shot TM in self-defense or hunted him down. I don't know how things happened that night. I wasn't there.

[hrmjustin]

1. Zimmerman still murdered a kid. Can't change that.

[billh58]

3. But the SYG apologists

and Zimmerman defenders can always try.

[hrmjustin]

5. And they are trying.

[rl6214]

103. Killed, he was found not guilty of murder

[hrmjustin]

131. He still murdered him.

[billh58]

140. +100

Let's call it what it really was -- stalking, provocation, murder -- but in Florida all of these things are "legal" if you're white.

[hrmjustin]

141. Thats right!

[billh58]

175. Your hero Zimmerman

stalked, provoked, and murdered an innocent teenager. You and your Gungeoneer buddies can call it what ever helps you make it through the night, but I don't believe that I'm the racist here Bubba.

[JI7]

2. why did Zimmerman follow Trayvon in the first place

[HiPointDem]

4. bullshit, he didn't say 'fucking cold,' it doesn't even make sense in the context.

[Skip Intro]

10. CNN made a retraction or "correction." n/t

[Atman]

46. "This time we're not lying! I swear!"

[HiPointDem]

87. your other claim, about the photo, is also false. see here:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/martin.asp

so that's two bullshit claims, i bet the other is false too.

i'd like some documentation for that 'fucking cold' claim, please. from cnn.

[Skip Intro]

88. Link for "c**n" retraction:

The killing was hashed out in America’s newsrooms. Al Sharpton, a civil rights activist and MSNBC host, travelled to Florida where he lead protest marches. CNN and MSNBC claimed the tape of a 911 call made by Zimmerman “clearly” recorded him calling Martin a “coon.” NBC host Joe O’Donnell said the tape “constitutes obvious evidence of hateful intent.” CNN later retracted its statement admitting that the tape did not contain any racial slur but rather the word “cold.” O’Donnell said nothing.

http://www.canada.com/Race+politics+trump+control+George+Zimmerman+case/8663144/story.html#ixzz2Zpg5zble


and Snopes says the date of the photo is uncertain.

The larger question is, did the media purposely report falsehoods as fact to stir a reaction within the general population? If so, why?

[HiPointDem]

89. i want a link to the *cnn* retraction, not a link to some website saying it happened.

Last edited Tue Jul 23, 2013, 02:15 AM - Edit history (4)

especially not what appears to be a conservative website, whose other news flashes include 'poverty drops to lowest level ever and media turns a blind eye'.

martin was born feb 5 1995, which means he had just turned 17 when he was shot feb 26, 2012.

this is a picture dated august 2009, when he was 14 & 1/2.



photos taken for prom, probably junior prom (he was a junior when he died).





pictures labeled 'birthday' on his myspace page:





and a larger image of the widely circulated picture, where you can see he has some teenage muscle on him, not the arms of a 12-year-old.



photos taken days before he died, at his mother's birthday. 5'11", 158 lbs at his death, verified by the coroner.








zimmerman at the time of the murder was 5'8", 194#. verified by zimmerman.

[Skip Intro]

94. Ok.

Wolf acknowledges, as does the next guy, that they previously reported that it was "fucking c**ns" being said. Then they take a giant step back.

Do you disagree that the media passed along a false impression?

The MSNBC thing is true too. There's actually more than one.

The bigger question is, why would the media and certain influential forces try to create and sell a false reality, sowing anger and resentment in the process? Why?

[HiPointDem]

100. thank you for going to the trouble. it still sounds like 'fucking coons' to me, and the situation

Last edited Tue Jul 23, 2013, 02:19 AM - Edit history (1)

(he was upset that martin was running) makes it unlikely he'd suddenly comment on the weather.

and according to the defense's 'enhanced version,':

According to Tom Owen and Zimmerman’s lawyers, Zimmerman said “fucking punks,” under his breath.

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/george-zimmerman-said-fucking-cold-or-fucking-punks

this 'enhancement' seems to be an inexact science.

so no, i don't think cnn sold any false reality, i think they played the tape where zimmerman said 'fucking coons'.

the later backpedaling was to remove the racism.

and to repeat:

martin was born feb 5 1995, which means he had just turned 17 when he was shot feb 26, 2012.

[Jenoch]

154. It was a cold and rainy night.

After listening to the cleaned up audio, are you sure he did not say "effin cold"?

[Myrina]

158. If it was so effin COLD, why didn't he get in his truck & let the cops do their job ...

.... as he was told to do by 9-1-1??

[Jenoch]

165. I agree, he never should have left his vehicle,

and he never should have been armed with anything other than a cell phone and a can of pepper spray, as I have posted many times before.

[yardwork]

169. But it's no big deal. I mean Zimmerman is fine.

It's not like he died or had to go to prison or anything. It all worked out just fine for George.

[Jenoch]

170. What's no big deal?

[yardwork]

171. The whole thing, for George. No serious consequences.

In fact, it looks like George might make some money off this. People are buying him guns. Speaking engagements at Storm Front can't be far behind.

[Jenoch]

173. I think it is a big deal for Zimmerman.

He is apparently still in hiding and if I were him I would be afraid to go out in public. I think if he wishes to get some anonymity, he should lose a bunch of weight and grow his hair and beard.

I had to do a search on Stormfront. I wonder if, even though he is a Hispanic, would they would accept Zimmerman?

[yardwork]

193. He isn't in hiding. He was out rescuing motorists the other day.

Spain was an ally of the Axis powers during WWII, and many Nazis escaped to South America after the war. George Zimmerman's mother is from Peru.

I don't know if Storm Front would accept George Zimmerman (I was using some creative license there) but he is clearly a hero among racists who believe that they have a God-given right to shoot and kill any black male who "scares" them for whatever reason.

[Jenoch]

196. Godwin's Law rears it's ugly head.

Zimmerman was out driving with a body guard. I have read that has not returned to his former residence.

[yardwork]

238. Nonsense. I didn't compare anybody to Hitler.

I am pointing out that there is no reason why Hispanic people can't be racists too.

[Jenoch]

239. It read to that you

making some sort of ludicrous implication that George Zimmerman's father's family were Nazis who fled to Peru and that is how his parents got together. The Spanish PEOPLE were not allies with the Nazis, and neither was the Spanish Army. Franco accepted aid, aircraft, and fliers from Germany in their 1936 civil war. Spain was mostly nuetral in WWII. They did not let the German Armies onto the Iberian Penninsula nor did they let them have Gibralter. What does any of this have to do with George Zimmerman?

[yardwork]

251. No, I didn't say any of that.

I can't even imagine where you got that in my post.

[Jenoch]

252. You mentioned Nazis and South America.

Zimmerman's mother is from Peru, his father is German. You were not too explicit in making your point.

[yardwork]

253. I am putting you on ignore. It appears to be impossible to talk with you.

[Jenoch]

254. I was just explaining why I responded the way I did.

It is childish to use the ignore feature without at least a warning.

[HiPointDem]

159. or...perhaps 'fucking punks'? well, so much for the 'cleaned up' audioS...

[Jenoch]

164. I'm wondering about the punks thing too.

Could it be that the 'punk' was on another part of the call?

[HiPointDem]

166. no. just two different 'experts' 'cleaning up.' strangely enough, the 'cleaning' comes out

differently.

[IdaBriggs]

162. Your link makes me so sad.

But it also explains some of the problems with a few Facebook people.

[Lee-Lee]

6. When it comes to the media

Ratings sell ads, controversy drives ratings.

[hrmjustin]

11. Foxnews is good at that.

And lying. They are great at lying.

[Lee-Lee]

14. They all are

With the exception of NPR/PBS, who don't worry about ratings and ad sales.

[hrmjustin]

17. But you have to admit fox is the most sleaziest and lied the most about this case.

Their coverage was shameful.

[Lee-Lee]

18. I really never watched it, so I can't say n/t

[hrmjustin]

21. Well you are doing yourself a favor. It turned my stomach everytime I watched.

[Lee-Lee]

42. Honestly, I don't watch any TV news

I listen to morning edition when I get up, All Things Considered and Marketplace at the end of the day, and the rest of my news I look my own stuff up online. I am smart enough to gather my own news online from all kinds of places.

It helps my sanity immensely.

[Smarmie Doofus]

22. Just truckloads of foundation $$$ from Gates and Walmart. n/t

[Jenoch]

155. Actually, they do worry about

ratngs and ad sales, the ads are called underwriting.

[uppityperson]

7. WTF? He said "f*ing cold"? I thought they finally agreed it was "fucking punks"? You're not taking

a side?

[Skip Intro]

20. They took back the "fucking c**n" claim.

Maybe it was punks, maybe it was cold, whatever, It wasn't c**ns, as reported.

It is kind of hard to buy it as a mistake, isn't it?

[uppityperson]

26. "c**n" and "goon" are closer than "cold". Are you saying that is one thing the media manipulated to

make things look different than reality? During events or shortly thereafter, inaccurate reporting happens as the information getting out is based on partial takes, with everyone having a side or slant, and then the media gets hold of it. I wish they wouldn't treat everything like a sporting event, or entertainment.

Don't give election results until all the votes are tallied. Make accuracy higher priority than speed in reporting. But hey, "brand new, latest top story coming up at 11" sells ad time.

[Skip Intro]

33. Well, yes, it could be.

If the media reported he said "c**ns" and later says nevermind, I mean, there are two possibilities - that was done purposefully or it wasn't. But it got a reaction, it sank in. When you look at the other things I mentioned in the OP, in that context, I have to lean toward it might have been intentional. Yes, it could be an example of media manipulation. Absolutely. May not be, but could be, taken in the context with other similar things happening.

A possibility.

I would like to have one source that just reports the facts, without spin or agenda.

On the election thing, you're right, but man I would miss the vote totals coming in and the projections. It's like the Superbowl to me, in a way.

[Marie Marie]

50. John Fugelsand posted the audio and I listened to it.

While I can't say for 100% certain but it sure sounded like c**n to me. Definitely not cold.

[uponit7771]

8. Usually the racist like to portray TM in the worse possible way and Z in the best regardless of the

...fact that

a grown, fit, mma trained, 200 lb man with ill will and intent hunted down a 150lb 10th grader through a dark neighborhood armed with a gun.


There's no side to take up

Like slavery during the 1860s Zimmerman was morally wrong

regards

[Epiphany4z]

9. perhaps...still

Travon was barley 17, was still unarmed, Z over 30... was still stalking and armed on neighborhood watch...<not clear on what the word WATCH meant> Z was still told not to follow . I don't need the other media games. I don't think most people did.

[uppityperson]

27. Zimmy was 28, not "over 30"

[OhShitNotAgain]

135. I didn't know Z is over 30??

I think you have some facts wrong...

[Spazito]

12. CNN got it wrong, he didn't say "fucking cold"...

You got it wrong as well.

"I'm not taking up any side, simply asking." Right.

[joeglow3]

13. These are valid questions but don't expect an answer

The reality is that controversy sells and the media will do ANYTHING to this end. MSNBC is no different than any other network. Frankly, what I have seen here the last month had to be causing orgasms in the network heads.

[quinnox]

15. | "I'm not taking a side" | Right, give me a friggin' break

it is very clear and transparent which side you are taking.

[billh58]

176. The Gungeoneers are

swarming to protect one of their own and trying to deny their absolute support of Zimmerman while doing so. It's typical of their NRA-inspired convoluted propaganda that more guns equals less crime, and all gunners are saints.

Actually, Zimmerman could be an active Gungeon contributor, and he would certainly fit right in with the rest of the right-wing gun fetishists in that swamp.

[FarPoint]

16. They do it for Zimmy just like they did for *bush.

They see themselves, a mirror reflection of oneself in these two sub-humans. The Zimminites are the *bushies and they will recreate a new glorious reality to fit their selfless egos.

They will make it fit....tell the lie long and often until it becomes the new reality over time.

[pintobean]

19. Hi Skip.

I recced because...

[Cali_Democrat]

23. A child is dead...he wasn't breaking any laws.

He was walking home and he was stalked because he fit a certain profile. He was unarmed and still killed.

A child is dead.

Not something to break out the popcorn over.

Just sayin'

[pintobean]

32. The OP is about the media and shit reporting.

Skip didn't make it about anything else, others did.

[MattBaggins]

35. Shit reporting like changing what was clearly "fucking coons"

to fucking goons or fucking cold

or to the final crap allowed in the trial of fucking punks.

[Hoyt]

79. I swear the early tapes sure sounded like c word. Doesn't matter, Z is a bigot with a gun.

If there as law suit, maybe they will sort it out. Zman is a murderer. If media changed Tape, needs to be sorted out because that's wrong.

But, Trayvon still did nothing to deserve a bigot's bullet,. And gun cultists and corrupt gun laws allowed that worthless POS to walk.

[rl6214]

104. Still waiting for you to prove the bigot part

[Hoyt]

106. All the bigots supporting him are proof enough. But fact he took off after Trayvon is enough

for most honest people not into guns, SYG laws, etc.

[rl6214]

108. And waiting

[libodem]

111. yep

You got it.

[HiPointDem]

167. what's telling to me is that various experts turn the sound into such a variety of sounds, none

of which are closely related to each other in terms of tongue/lip placement.

compare your mouth with 'p' & 'k' for example.

or 'n' & 'k'.

or 'oo,' 'o' & 'u'.

but i can see with modern sound equipment how you could tweak them to sound closer together, more indistinguishable, and call it 'clean up' or 'enhancement'.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

232. I don't think that's a safe assumption at all.

I think it's well within reasonable doubt, and and arguably within the balance of probability, that Martin was launching a criminal assault on Zimmerman when he was killed.

[Skip Intro]

25. Hey

Every now and then I want to see if DU can have a discussion without resorting to name calling.

I never know what's going to happen. It seems to freak some DUers out when there is any fact or mention of something that doesn't fit the grand invisible, you know?

Enjoy the popcorn either way!

[OhShitNotAgain]

137. Im starting to believe that name calling is how DU does discuss things..

[hrmjustin]

138. You just got here and thats what you think?

[OhShitNotAgain]

143. so because I just signed up it means what I haven't been here reading discussions for a couple years?

I have been reading here for a couple years and have finally decided to sign up to post.

So I have seen what happens here to those with differing opinions.

[hrmjustin]

144. This is a discussion board and people get into it my friend.

So tell me what are your thoughts on the whole thing?

[OhShitNotAgain]

145. I'm not getting into this discussion...

[hrmjustin]

146. Oh ok well I hope you have fun on this board.

Enjoy!

[billh58]

177. Strange isn't

it that they sign up and gravitate to the Zimmerman fan club threads? The old, "I've been lurking" ploy...

[hrmjustin]

178. Mirt got rid of a whole bunch today.

[billh58]

179. Yep, MIRT is

trying to keep up, but like bedbugs the little buggers are hard to eradicate.

[hrmjustin]

180. They are attracted to us.

[billh58]

181. LOL!

Now I need some brain drano...

[hrmjustin]

182. The come from the cave a lot of the time. They love to boast about how they have moles here.

I read a post there today that asked if I was a mole.

[billh58]

184. Right-Wingers

are amusing, but so transparent. Take our very own Gungeoneers for example...

[hrmjustin]

185. I think I angered a few of them yesterday and today because I did not believe Zimmerman saved that

family. Got a few evil eyes from them.

[billh58]

186. I was just called

a racist for calling Zimmerman a murderer. They can only see over their gun sights, and no further.

[hrmjustin]

187. Did you alert?

[billh58]

188. No, I just responded.

It's up-thread in this OP near the top.

[hrmjustin]

189. My God some people just say dumb things. I got called McCarthy today because I asked a new poster

if he like the idea of the president's approval rating going down. The new poster was removed and I can not repond the the guy who called me Mccarthy because the post is locked.

[billh58]

190. I saw that.

It's amazing to me that they can't see the irony in their ramblings.

[hrmjustin]

191. I see you friends post was hidden.

[billh58]

192. Thanks. n/t

[billh58]

240. He must really have

a thing for me. He sent me a nasty PM calling me a racist, but I just deleted it. The Gungeoneers are beside themselves because one of their free-fire zones (Florida) is being exposed for the racism and violence that SYG breeds. SYG allowed Zimmerman to get away with outright murder, and the Gungeoneers are defending both the murderer AND the system that protects him.

Typical of that right-wing swamp and its "cold dead hands" NRA-worshiping denizens.

[hrmjustin]

244. Next time they send you pms like that alert on them. There is an alert function on mail.

[billh58]

246. Thanks for

the advice, and I wasn't aware that you could alert on PMs.

[hrmjustin]

247. I have never gotten hate mail here but if I did i would alert in a second.

I send PMs to my friends all the time but I never discuss issues over Pms. MY rule is if you want to talk policy do it in the threads, unless you are sending info that was asked or you don't want everyone to see. I would never engage with the gun people in a PM.

People have been removed for thoughtless words in a pm.

[billh58]

248. I agree.

It just seems cowardly to attack someone via PM, but then again rabid gun humpers appear a little cowardly to me in the first place.

[hrmjustin]

249. I don't normally get into it with them but I have in the past 2 weeks.

[oldhippie]

151. Well, you got your answer, didn't you?

It's pretty sad. Kinda like a mindless mob sometimes.

[CreekDog]

222. because you like disruption

what else is new?

[hrmjustin]

24. Skip a question for you. Who do you sympathize with more GZ or TM?

[Cali_Democrat]

28. Is water wet?

Skip probably did a happy dance after the verdict.

[Skip Intro]

29. Thanks for asking. My answer is, why do you ask that question?

Why does this have to go to my personal thoughts, which I've described in the op, rather than the what seems to me as possible evidence of media manipulation? Why try to make me the topic? What about the questions I asked? Any thoughts on those?

[hrmjustin]

31. Ok fine lets talk about foxnews coverage and how biased it was. Do you agree it was biased?

[Skip Intro]

39. Didn't watch it. You saying OP examples are real, but ok?

None of it is ok. Bias in news is not ok.

Purposely reporting something as real, repeatedly, when you know it isn't, when you created the falsehood, if that's what's happened, is not ok.

Is it?

[hrmjustin]

41. Well if Zimmerman sues he can get money so the Martin family can sue him for all he has.

[Skip Intro]

47. The question isn't whether he can or should sue. It's a bigger question than that.

If the media did purposely "report" untrue things in a effort to manipulate the public, why did they do that?

And what else have they done that with?

And do we like being manipulated in such ways by those we turn to for information?

That is, if it all wasn't just some mistake.

But nothing I've said is in error (except that some believe he said "punks" instead of "cold&quot .

Should we just ignore it?

[hrmjustin]

53. The media have been manipulating things since before you or I were born. This is nothing new.

He murdered a kid and my sympathy is with Trayvon and his family, where is yours?

[Skip Intro]

61. I'm talking about the media. This thread is about the media.

If you have something related to the topic of the thread, I'll be happy to reply. If all you are capable of are personal attacks, well, that's just sad.

[hrmjustin]

63. Yes manipulation is wrong and he can sue.

Do you think that Fox was wrong to manipulate facts to favor Zimmerman?

[Nay]

148. The media has always reported untrue and biased things, but it didn't used to do that 24/7.

IMHO, the 24/7 breathless news cycle with everyone chasing the next angle and/or preparing lies for the consumption of the public (Fox) has made impossible any reasoned discourse. It's always about playing to people's prejudices and emotions, so truth is essentially irrelevant. Unfortunately, jurors are subjected to these waves of bullshit way before they get picked for the jury, so their attitude about any specific case is directly influenced 24/7 by shit. In addition, simply growing up in this heated media/infotainment atmosphere truly has made people more stupid with respect to their ability to filter out bullshit and determine what is truly relevant in a case. This contrived atmosphere also has been scientifically proven to increase fear in the populace and make people feel crime is a lot more prevalent than it really is.

Morally, what was the issue in this case? Well, to me it was: do you, as a citizen, have the right to chase and challenge someone walking in a public place (and not committing any crime), start or instigate a fight with a person who himself will feel stalked/attacked, then kill him if he resists or scares you, and escape conviction for anything? I don't think such a right morally exists. If we can agree that no such right exists but the law allowed this, then the law must be changed. Another moral aspect is the initial response of the police -- the primary investigator wanted GZ arrested, but he was stymied. The investigator was morally correct to hold the view he did, and it's worth another whole investigation to find out why immediate arrest was not taken off the table.

Now, I did not follow any of the TM/GZ stuff on the news. I never watch mainstream news, because it is entirely corrupt and will give me nothing to base any rational opinion on. It doesn't matter if GZ was a racist bastard, and it doesn't matter if TM was a Crip. Only your actions matter. Period.

I did read more in-depth discussions on what Florida law required of the jurors, and I can sorta see how they ruled the way they did. TM's parents are, IMO, correct to say that the law must be changed. But, since the whole affair has been deliberately splattered with all sorts of emotional detritus, a majority of people can't sort it out or respond maturely or appropriately. There are also commercial and RW forces that are using this for their own ends (buy more guns! ni**ers! immorality! stock up on survival stuff!).

[hrmjustin]

49. A 17 year old kid is dead and your worried about George.

Who cares what the media said about him. He was a racist and it showed. As I said let him sue so that the Martin family can get money from him.

[Skip Intro]

54. Getting personal again?

It's a big deal if the media manipulated, or tried to inflame, something by reporting falsehoods they either crafted or were given. If that is true it is a big deal. Sorry you can't see that and instead start to attack me personally.

[hrmjustin]

58. I am not attacking you but your position.

I don't know you.

[Skip Intro]

62. My position? What position? Seriously, what position?

[hrmjustin]

65. You seem to worry about Zimmerman and his image in the media.

I took that as being a supporter of Zimmerman and the verdict. If I am wrong and you are not a supporter of his I am sorry.

[Skip Intro]

66. Not about Z, about entities we trust to be honest lying to

and misleading us in order to present a distorted version of reality, stoking anger and resentment in the process.

[hrmjustin]

68. The media has an agenda. This is nothing new.

[Pelican]

78. He seems very concerned about who we have sympathy for...

Maybe he thinks it'll create same amazing holiday magic and undo what happened if we close our eyes really hard and feel really really really bad!

That or he is trying to find a nice quote to prove that we hate children, double points for anything involving race.

[AZ Progressive]

30. Bullshit, Zimmerman said "c**ns", audio analysis

You can clearly hear the "N", there's no way you can conclude it was "punks" or "cold."

[jmg257]

36. Sounds like punks to me...hmmm.. Nt

[Skip Intro]

43. "CNN later retracted its statement"

The killing was hashed out in America’s newsrooms. Al Sharpton, a civil rights activist and MSNBC host, travelled to Florida where he lead protest marches. CNN and MSNBC claimed the tape of a 911 call made by Zimmerman “clearly” recorded him calling Martin a “coon.” NBC host Joe O’Donnell said the tape “constitutes obvious evidence of hateful intent.” CNN later retracted its statement admitting that the tape did not contain any racial slur but rather the word “cold.” O’Donnell said nothing.

Read more: http://www.canada.com/Race+politics+trump+control+George+Zimmerman+case/8663144/story.html#ixzz2Zpg5zble

[Tien1985]

34. I'm Hispanic, I'm darker

Than Zimmerman, and yes, most people who see me call me white. To the public eye, I am white. I am aware of this and recognize that it gives me quite a bit of advantage/privilege.

Zimmerman looks white and if he wasn't involved in a major criminal case, many people would never have even guessed he is Hispanic. Also, being Hispanic doesn't make anyone immune to being racist. There are plenty of Hispanic people who are also racist.

Nothing against you personally, I'm mostly staying out of these arguments, but I've seen this one a few times, and as someone who IS Hispanic, it's been driving me crazy.

[JI7]

44. i think he looks hispanic but anyone can be racist, he is racist against other hispanics also

and i believe he has attacked asians also.

[Skittles]

64. he would ignore me, a middle aged white gal

because he would approve of my presence in the neighborhood regardless of how fast or slow I was walking

[tnlefty]

57. At least you are aware of it!

The Latino/Hispanic youth that have been to my house many times, along with those of Pakistani, Indian descent, and the African-Americans, and those who want to be defined as black, are much darker skinned than I, even in the summer...they all know they're welcome here.

As much as I may try to walk in someone elses shoes, I can't because I'll never know what it's like to be black, hispanic, lgtb, etc. in America. I know injustice when I see it, but I don't live it...but I do know what it's like to be a woman, and that's getting bleak.

[tnlefty]

37. I have three sons, who have all been 17 and larger than Trayvon at 17, and I did explain to one of

them a couple of nights ago:

If anyone had stalked you and shot you, murdered you, you better believe that I'd be raising hell about it. Acquitted for that, he'd better be watching his ass all of the time...I wouldn't harm him, I'd just make his life miserable everytime that I found him outside of his house. I'd have a sign that read, 'This is the SOB who murdered my son.'

Signed from a pissed off white woman.

[notadmblnd]

38. There is only two people that know what really happened that night

One is dead and the other is a liar.

[treestar]

40. I wish they had not used that 14 year old photo

It gave the right wing so much space. And the 17 year old photos looked sympathetic enough to me. Though as I keep telling right wingers, what the eff does it matter what Trayvon looked like?

Newest right winger meme is wearing a hoodie in warm weather. Local racist uncle today talked about black men in hoodies in hot weather means they must be doing something criminal. I tried asking him if white men in hoodies at same temperature would be as scary, and he claimed that white men are not dumb enough to wear hoodies in warm weather while doing crimes. Quite the racist, isn't he?

[yardwork]

71. It was a rainy February evening the night that Trayvon was killed. I doubt it was "hot weather."

The internet is full of lies attempting to make Trayvon look like a gangster so that people can feel good about Zimmerman murdering him.

[treestar]

73. right wing lie #3455

it is always hot in Florida. Then why do any kids even have hoodies. You are right, it is part of their spin.

[OhShitNotAgain]

150. The internet is full of lies... That is an understatement.

[Hoyt]

83. I wish defense didn't use photo to prejudice the prejudiced jury.

[rl6214]

105. Now it was a prejudiced jury

Do you believe anything you write?

[Hoyt]

107. Clearly B37 was a bigot, fool, and had carried a gun in past.

[rl6214]

109. But no one has commented on the other five jurors

That also acquitted him?

[Hoyt]

110. They were worse, and are ashamed of their vote, or know they should be.

[rl6214]

112. Of course they were, but YOU know better

[Skittles]

45. you got what you wanted

why keep harping?

[Kingofalldems]

48. That's a damn good question I would pose

to all of the DU Zimmy supporters. Looks like piling on to me.

[Skittles]

51. a paranoid gun humper, a PROVEN threat to society, is free to walk the streets - armed

and they are STILL bitching

[Kingofalldems]

56. I believe it is a concerted effort

I said it and will not take it back.

[Pelican]

82. You wild rebel...

[Kingofalldems]

122. Nope, just a Democrat

[alcibiades_mystery]

59. They want us to love him, too, and "admit" that the dead black boy is actually the "thug"

of their pathetic nightmares.

They are a pack of racist shitheads. The only proper response is to shun them.

[Skittles]

60. yes, that is exactly right

f*** them all

[AndyA]

152. I've had run ins with a few members of the DU Zimmerman Fan Club

It really is a waste of time to even respond to them. The best choice is to just ignore, or to use the icon. When I've checked, they usually focus on threads about Zimmerman, which is red flag number one, and most have had somewhat low post counts (3 digits). A few, however, have been around DU for a long time and have 5 digit post counts. Most are not star members, but a few have been.

For me, it boils down to the fact that if Zimmerman had been minding his own business, and allowed the police to handle things, Martin would still be alive. Zimmerman took the first step that started the ball rolling. I don't see how he can't be held accountable for that.

[alcibiades_mystery]

55. They love a dead black body

They're fucking trash and not worth a response. Yes, all of them, with their pretend "objectivity."

[Skip Intro]

67. What are you talking about?

[Skittles]

70. oh that's right, you're "not taking sides"

[Skip Intro]

72. Ok, whatever. n/t

[billh58]

124. Yep, none of the

Gungeoneers are "taking sides." They just want to politely point out that Zimmerman is an honest upstanding citizen who was legally stalking an unarmed teenager, and legally murdered him with his legal weapon in a legal fashion, and the legal system which found him legally innocent was not legally racist.

We should all apologize to George (I can call him that) for the mean and nasty things which have been said about him on DU. The Gungeoneers are only protecting the God-given right to provoke an altercation and then to murder the person you provoked. It is written in the ancient law of self-protection and self-defense.

[Cali_Democrat]

76. LOL

[Rex]

92. People like kicking around a dead kid's body?

I mean, the other 99% get it. You get it, I get it. Foxnews viewers...not so much.

[yardwork]

69. Actually, you're wrong. Your facts are wrong.

The photo of Trayvon was taken when he was sixteen, just a few months before he was murdered. It wasn't him at twelve or fourteen. That's a falsehood that has been perpetuated all over the internet.

Another falsehood that you may believe is that a photo of a scary looking man covered with tattoos - including tattoos on his face - is a picture of Trayvon Martin. That is false. Another false photo of Trayvon is a shirtless man wearing orange prison pants and making gang gestures with his hands. Gawker published that photo and claimed it was Trayvon Martin but it is not the teenager who was murdered. They later retracted but a lot of people still pass around these photos and claim that they are photos of the just-turned seventeen year old who was murdered.

There were a lot of other things that George Zimmerman claimed that turned out not to be true. His head was not smashed against the pavement "20 or 30 times." If that had happened, he would have been in a coma.

[Incitatus]

74. The head smashing thing is the biggest red flag.

There were like 3 scratches that required band aides. No staples, no stitches, no concussion, just a few scrapes that could happen from him falling backwards on the pavement after he grabbed Martin after chasing him down.

[Bettie]

161. And in all of the pictures of his "terrible head wounds"...

...the small amount of blood that is present is trailing from the 'THW' (or scratches as we call them around here), down toward his face, which, unless gravity works differently in Florida would not indicate he was on the bottom in the confrontation.

I have three boys and had two brothers.

Over the years, I've seen a LOT of flesh meets sidewalk injuries and they don't look like tiny little scratches or knife cuts.

I'm constantly amazed at the people who insist that GZ is an innocent in all of this, in fact, he's the VICTIM. SMH.

[Pelican]

75. The story has been crafted to get maximum outrage for the buck...

... and as you can see once the ball starts rolling it is self perpetuating.

[hrmjustin]

77. The media loves to take advantage of stories like this. Just look how fox covered this story.

[Skittles]

93. yes, the gun humpers just cannot help piling it on

fuck them all

[Pelican]

95. I think we can all agree that it was initially pushed...

... by groups like the NAACP, ACLU and the AA "advocates."

After their push, the story got legs and everyone ran with it. In any case I would hardly call them "gun humpers"

[Skittles]

97. thinking people can all agree

Trayvon Martin would be alive were it not for a paronoid gun humping coward piece of SHIT

[Pelican]

99. K...

[mzteris]

80. You know,

The first thing I did was to check the post count as I was sure this couldn't be one of "ours".

I'm surprised, shocked, dismayed... I've seen your posts, some I agree with some I don't you know how that goes. But there are basic fundamental values that exist amongst the majority of duers. And, this pov, really isn't one of them.

Not calling you out. You're entitled to your opinion, just expressing my disappointment. Now I know you probably don't care, probably don't even recognize my name so this post in reality will mean nothing to you.

But such is my deep and visceral belief hat George Zimmerman with malice aforethought set out to catch and intimidate a kid. He was seventeen. I don't care if he was 6ft 6and weighed 250 and had a black belt in karate. He was a kid. Walking along minding his own damn business. He was watched and then stalked and confronted by a man. A man with a history. A history of violence and racial profiling, (not to mention molestation). He was a vigilante itching for action. Something, anything. He wanted something to happen. Maybe not murder, maybe, but that was the end result.

Kid dead. Man smirking.

[Peaceplace80]

85. A unarmed teenager was walking home

From the store minding his own business looking forward to watching a game. He was followed and gunned down by a arrogant, racist monster. Even if he didn't say "coon" it's quite obvious that he profiled Trayvon based on the color of his skin!

[lunamagica]

86. The picture was NOT of TM as a 14 yeae old. It was taken just a few months before he was killed

here's the link:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/martin.asp

[reusrename]

90. How does the Martin kid suddenly turn into a homicidal maniac?

I honestly don't get it. Why would he want to kill anyone? It's absurd. Really.

If you can come with some motive for the kid wanting to suddenly kill someone, I'll listen.

If not, get off of this delusional talking point.

Zimmerman lived out his favorite fantasy. That's really all there is to it.

[Skip Intro]

96. Who said that?

I didn't.

Bigger picture, bigger issue.

Not about TM or Z, but about possible media manipulation and incitement, bs "reporting," that power, how it is used, why it is used.

Isn't that clear from the OP?

[reusrename]

101. You said you don't know if it was self defense.

That means YOU THINK THE KID MIGHT HAVE BEEN ACTUALLY TRYING TO KILL HIM!

You believe this is a possibility. Let me try to disabuse you of that idea.






I have been in a few fights, but only once where I knew the guy was trying to kill me.

I told everybody I saw for the next few days, especially the cops:

"That guy was trying to kill me!"

"Yeah, but you don't understand, he was REALLY trying to kill me!"

"You just don't get it, he was trying to actually kill me."







I don't see that reaction at all in this case. Not even close. To know that someone is trying to kill you is not a common event. It has a real effect on people. Your injuries or pain are completely secondary, not at all important to you. What you remember very clearly is that moment when you first realize that someone is actually trying to kill you. You just can't stop talking about that moment.

Zimmerman absolutely knows this kid never, ever, was going to cause him any real harm. Or he's such a psycho that he doesn't know. In either event he murdered that Martin boy.

[Rex]

91. Well as long as you are not disappointed in DUers

Where have I seen this act before, oh right last night! Some minor variations...kewl story bro!

[Hoyt]

113. Branded with reason. If Teabaggers believe the same as you, it's highly likely.

[Hoyt]

115. Apparently, even though facts are clear, you don't want to accept georgie is a bigot and gun

lover. I think that proves my point.

[billh58]

142. How in the

hell does this "Name Removed" guy keep getting back in the door? We need some stronger anti-troll spray or something...

[Skittles]

118. oh gawd, yet another one

coming out of the woodwork

[Electric Monk]

119. Nah, I'd give odds it's just galileoreloaded gracing us with their presence again.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=223417&sub=trans

[Skittles]

120. racist gun humpers really toe the NRA line, don't they

f*** all of them

[quakerboy]

102. I believe you are the one attempting to "paint a picture that isnt real"

I am quite certain that Zimmerman murdered Martin, no self defense. I wasn't there, but the events seem fairly self evident to me.

That said, that recording has been listened to so many times, and there are nearly as many opinions on what was said as there are people listening. Personally, I cant tell what is said, and feel that anyone who claims absolute certainty is fooling themselves. If CNN said he said "c**n", they were reading into a Rorschach blot. which makes a later "admission" that he said "cold" equally much reading into it, and equally legitimate/illegitimate.

Hispanics are considered "white" in many contexts. Not in a racist suburb, sure. But when I look up stats on things, quite often Hispanics are included in "White". And I am Caucasian, as "white" as anyone. My skin tone is as "brown" as Zimmerman's. As is that of many people of "European white" ancestry. Its a relatively few that are actually alabaster white, especially in the age of tanning salons on every corner.

I wasn't watching news. I haven't since the last election. But im pretty sure they were playing up any aspect they could to raise viewership and interest. Even if that means switching between the various versions of the story every day, or even in between each individual show, or anchor on a show.

[AZ Progressive]

116. Hispanics were considered white from time to time by the U.S. Census

From Wikipedia's article on Mexican Americans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_American

As the United States' borders expanded, the United States Census Bureau changed its racial classification methods for Mexican Americans under United States jurisdiction. The Bureau's classification system has evolved significantly from its inception:

From 1790 to 1850, there was no distinct racial classification of Mexican Americans in the US census. The only racial categories recognized by the Census Bureau were White and Black. The Census Bureau estimates that during this period the number of persons that could not be categorized as white or black did not exceed 0.25% of the total population based on 1860 census data.[22]

From 1850 through 1920 the Census Bureau expanded its racial categories to include all different races including Mestizos, Mulattos, Amerindians and Asians, and classified Mexicans and Mexican Americans as "White"[22] All Mexicans were legally (though not normally socially, ecomically or politically) considered "White" either because they were considered to be of full Spanish heritage, or because of treaty obligations to Spaniards and Mexicans that conferred citizenship status at a time when whiteness was a prerequisite for US citizenship.[citation needed]

The 1930 US census revoked generic white status for Mexican Americans due to protest over a diluted definition of "whiteness". The new form asked for "color or race" and census workers were instructed to "write ‘W’ for White; ’Mex’ for Mexican."[23]

In the 1940 census, Mexican Americans were re-classified as White, due to widespread protests by the Mexican American community. Instructions for enumerators were "Mexicans – Report 'White' (W) for Mexicans unless they are definitely of indigenous or other non-white race." During the same census, however, the bureau began to track the White population of Spanish mother tongue. This practice continued through the 1960 census.[22] The 1960 census also used the title "Spanish-surnamed American" in their reporting data of Mexican Americans, which included Cuban Americans, Puerto Ricans and others under the same category.

From 1970 to 1980, there was a dramatic population increase of Other Race in the census, reflecting the addition of a question on Hispanic origin to the 100-percent questionnaire, an increased propensity for Hispanics to not identify themselves as White, and a change in editing procedures to accept reports of "Other race" for respondents who wrote in Hispanic entries such as Mexican, Cuban, or Puerto Rican. In 1970, such responses in the Other race category were reclassified and tabulated as White. During this census, the bureau attempted to identify all Hispanics by use of the following criteria in sampled sets:[22]
Spanish speakers and persons belonging to a household where the head of household was a Spanish speaker
Persons with Spanish heritage by birth location or surname
Persons who self-identified Spanish origin or descent

From 1980 on, the Census Bureau has collected data on Hispanic origin on a 100-percent basis. The bureau has noted an increasing number of respondents who mark themselves as Hispanic origin but not of the White race.[22]

For certain purposes, respondents who wrote in "Chicano" or "Mexican" (or indeed, almost all Hispanic origin groups) in the "Some other race" category were automatically re-classified into the "White race" group.[24]

[840high]

129. Not anymore.

[Inkfreak]

121. That story is so last week.

You didn't hear? There was a baby born in England. I think it was the 1st one born in awhile...or something.

[Vattel]

123. Wow, it is so nice to see someone admit that they don't know

whether Zimmerman committed a crime. Let me bask for a moment in the glow of your rational uncertainty before I answer your question.

Okay, I am ready. My answer is that I don't know why the media painted such a false picture. Maybe the "white racist stalks and murders black child with skittles" narrative was just seen as a more exciting story than a "Florida man claims self-defense in shooting of local youth" narrative.

[madville]

125. I listened to the recording many times

From several different sources and I can't make it out.

If you are listening and have a word in your mind it might sound like it does sound like that word but that's because it can't be made out in the first place.

I think the recording sounds like whatever word the listener WANTS it to sound like, some kind of psychological effect.

It's unfortunate it is not clearly heard, if it was a slur it could possibly help the federal investigation a great deal.

[oldhippie]

126. 125 responses ......

... and only a handful address your question. The vast majority attack you for even asking the question. That, unfortunately, is a classic example of critical thinking, civil discourse and debate on DU. This is really disappointing.

[Niceguy1]

130. the OP brings up a very good point

The members attacking the op probably believe every word they hear on MSNBC without even questioning it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

133. Huh

I knew from the start that Trayvon wasn't an angel. That didn't give Zimmerman the right to hunt him down like a dog and put a bullet in his heart.

[oldhippie]

134. So typical .......

So what does your response have to do with the question in the OP? Or my post, to which you just responded?

An excellent example of my point. Thank you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

136. What facts that I posited are in dispute?/nt

[oldhippie]

149. You didn't post any facts ....

You posted opinions. Which is not the point. Why did you even post what you did, when it did not address either the OP or what I posted? That was the point.

So many here just want to post something, usually their opinion, regardless of the subject of the OP. It seems they just want to hear (see) themselves, rather than contributing to a debate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

153. The police dispatcher asked Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon. He ignored him.

That began the awful cascade of events that culminated in an unarmed black kid , three weeks removed from his seventeenth birthday, being shot in the heart.

[oldhippie]

157. You're not going to get it .....

... are you? Why are you babbling on about stuff not of interest to the thread?

We're done. Have a nice day.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

160. You seem mad, bro. I hope I didn't upset you/nt

[McPops]

197. Why would Zimmerman care what the dispatcher said?

The dispatcher did not ask Zimmerman to not follow Trayvon. Rather, the dispatcher simply stated that following Trayvon was not necessary.

The dispatcher's statement really shouldn't carry much weight at all in judging Zimmerman's actions.

Zimmerman and Martin should only be judged by what took place once they encountered each other. One of them, or perhaps both, made a mistake in judgment... and kerblooie! Happens all the time.

[hrmjustin]

198. How did Trayvon make a mistake?

[McPops]

201. I don't know if he made a mistake in judgment

But he might have.

[hrmjustin]

202. He walked home with a bag of Skittles and a drink and Zimmerman had a gun.

Zimmerman chose to follow even though he was told not to. He started this and he murdered this kid and he got away with it in my opinion.

[McPops]

214. Well we do know...

... that Trayvon walked home with a bag of skittles and a drink. Check!

... that Zimmerman had a gun. Check!

You were doing well up until the point where you said "Zimmerman chose to follow even though he was told not to." That statement is simply untrue.

Who started it? I dunno.

[hrmjustin]

215. What do you think of Zimmerman.

[McPops]

223. Never met the man

Until I do, I'm not sure what to think of him.

But I can guess:

As I figure it, Zimmerman is a guy who searches for compliments. He volunteers to patrol the neighborhood and when he does something nice for someone he probably likes to be applauded.

But so do a lot of people.

If you have a flat tire, he would probably pull over to help you and bask in the "Thanks" you give him. In that sense, he isn't a true hero because his acts are done selfishly, at least to a certain extent.

In a way, his personality is probably a bit like Michael Scott in The Office, who also craves applause.

None of the above makes him evil, of course. Just a bit insecure.

Of course, I may have him pegged completely wrong. But unless a person actually knows him, his or her opinions are nothing but conjecture (and perhaps some wishful thinking).

[hrmjustin]

224. And your thoughts on Trayvon?

[McPops]

230. Probably doesn't matter since he wasn't on trial.

But whether I think he was a good kid depends on whether some of the stories I have seen are true about him.

Did he actually get caught with burglary tools?

Did he actually get caught vandalizing property?

I have seen articles about such assertions on the Web, but I'm not sure they are genuine.

But if they are true, that would definitely impact my view on him because I positively, absolutely hate thieves and vandals with a bloody passion.

[hrmjustin]

245. Where did you hear that from Rush, Hannity, or Fox?

None of that is true.

[BainsBane]

200. So when you walk home from the store

and someone decides to kill you because they think you look creepy, you have no problem with that?

[McPops]

204. I have a problem

with anyone killing me for any reason.

[BainsBane]

205. Yet you have no problem with Zimmerman's killing Trayvon

in those same circumstances. Why is that?

[McPops]

207. Was that the reason?

He just looked creepy... so he shot him? That's it?

In all of Zimmerman's life, I am sure he met a lot of people that looked creepy. As far as I know, Trayvon is the first one he's plugged.

I would have to think there must be more to it than that.

[hrmjustin]

209. So you blame trayvon for this?

Maybe he is just a racist murderer.

[BainsBane]

210. He saw a black teenager, considered him dangerous on sight

All of the calls he made to 911 were about black males. Like many Americans, he fears black men. So he then stalked Trayvon and killed him. What reason does any killer have? What reason did Ted Bundy have? Killers are killers.

Why you think you deserve consideration that Martin didn't, I have no idea. Your life isn't worth one bit more than Trayvon Martin's.

Yes, Martin appears to be the first person he has killed, but I suspect he won't be the last. He's a hero for right wingers and gun nuts because he's a killer, and better yet he killed a black man. I have no doubt they are hoping he kills more.

[McPops]

218. Are you seriously suggesting that Zimmerman's reasons for killing are the same as Bundy's?

Wow! The entire field of criminal psychology reduced to a single profile.

I am not sure what Zimmerman is like. Maybe he is an overzealous do-gooder who got himself into a bad spot and panicked. Or, perhaps he is just angry over whatever and decided to take out his aggression on someone else. Or, maybe he is entirely innocent.

Regardless, he's no Ted Bundy. Many that have demonized Zimmerman as the second coming of Satan simply do not understand the levels of evil that exist out there. Look up the name Mona Yvette Nelson sometime.

Consider John Gotti. This man's crimes went far beyond anything even the Zimmerman haters can conjure about the Trayvon Martin killing. Yet, this dude walked three times in a row and no one really cared. In fact, he became a celebrity and I bet that many in NYC that abhor Zimmerman called Gotti the "Dapper Don." (Luckily, they got him on the fourth go-around.)

And let's not even discuss the gruesome case of Issei Sagawa.

[hrmjustin]

221. So is your sympathy with Zimmerman or Trayvon?

[McPops]

225. Why would my sympathies matter?

I want my arguments considered on their own merit, not based on ad hominem reasoning.

[hrmjustin]

226. Do you feel upset that Travon is dead?

[McPops]

231. See previous response

[BainsBane]

250. Both are killers

Both needlessly took human life. Motivation doesn't concern me as much as the fact they are both killers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

236. When Zimmerman said he would follow Trayvon

When Zimmerman said he would follow Trayvon the dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that." Most people with a I Q over 80 would interpret that as a request to not follow him. Zimmerman's following of Trayvon in contravention of the dispatcher's request not to is the catalyst for all the events that culminated in a seventeen year old unarmed black kid, three weeks from his seventeenth birthday, getting shot in the heart.

[Klukie]

128. Hmmmm...

Why was/is there an effort to SKIP the INTRO to the crime? Like the part where George Zimmerman was told not to follow and then proceeded anyhow? Or the part where he stated that "They always get away"? What about the refusal of other biased networks to report the fact that GZ wanted the police to call him when they got there, rather than meet at the mailboxes?

[OwnedByCats]

132. I don't listen to the media anymore

They report a lot of things that turn out to be false. You really cannot trust them. Here is an example of what I mean ...

When Sandy Hook first happened, instead of reporting they didn't have any details, they reported that Adam's mother was a teacher there. There is an infamous clip where a reporter claimed the school nurse told her that his mother worked there, that she saw Adam and hid under her desk. Then it was reported she was a substitute teacher. Then come to find out she didn't work there at all. Then the school nurse does an interview saying all she saw was his feet, didn't know who he was and she didn't know his mother.

That is one of many many reasons I take everything they report with a huge grain of salt. All they care about is ratings, the truth does not matter anymore.

That's why I don't outright condemn Zimmerman. I waited for the trial and there just wasn't enough evidence presented to support 2nd degree. I wasn't there, I did not witness the attack and I'm not going to pretend I did and make assumptions about either one of them. There was a trial but the evidence failed to show evil intent. Of course many people don't appreciate that I don't feel comfortable assuming, but that's how I am.

[nil desperandum]

156. 24 hour news cycle

I think you are on the money with this, with the current push to have content for the constant 24 hour news cycles that all media outlets are using to promote their advertising dollars the mentality that "if it bleeds, it leads" has allowed for some really sketchy early accounts on many news issues...

You can get text alerts from your local TV station alerting you to breaking news, except most times the alerts are far more annoying than informing.

It does seem that more in depth coverage is available but it tends to not come initially from domestic news sources which is discouraging...

regarding Zimmerman, Trayvon lives if Zimmerman waits in the truck for a trained police officer. Then Zimmerman might actually learn that the black man who lives in Zimmerman's gated community has a teenage son who gets bored at night and likes to walk to the corner store. Instead of this tragic outcome where some wannabe cop, wannabe hero kills a teenager who has no previous arrest or criminal record.

This is bad karma that Zimmerman will have to pay back for the rest of his life, and it's been my experience that Karma (like the moon) is a harsh mistress.

As to why the media manipulates the truth it's economics usually, conflict brings in more readers/viewers so it makes a better story all around and it helps them sell detergent and cars...

[Capt. Obvious]

139. Nothing wrong with asking questions

Sean Hannity does it all the time.

[ieoeja]

147. I personally believe that both sides are full of it.

I don't believe for a second that Zimmerman shot Martin for kicks. Nor do I believe for a second that Zimmerman shot Martin because he was in fear for his life.

What healthy, adult male begs and pleads with the sound of tears in his voice "don't kill me" during a fucking fist fight? I've asked this question extensively since the ruling and have yet to meet anyone who has ever encountered this or even heard of such prior to this.

Toss in the fact that the healthy, adult male had a gun makes this story even more ridiculous.


The scenario that makes the most sense is that Zimmerman confronted Martin. Martin kicked his ass. Martin started walking away. Zimmerman, pissed at getting his ass kicked, catches up to him with gun drawn. The teenager facing a gun begs for his life. Zimmerman is full of rage and shoots him anyway.


Gunners have stated again and again that they have the right to kill someone who hits them. The problem is that for this to be even remotely legal, their attacker has to keep hitting them even after they pull a gun on him. They know that shit ain't likely to happen, so they have to pretend it did happen in this case so they can protect their right to kill.

Anti-gunners don't want to give even a hint of self defense justification. So they completely ignore the injuries to Zimmerman. Were they life threatening? Clearly not. But they did happen. And they sure as fuck didn't happen after Zimmerman pulled the gun. Since Zimmerman wasn't likely to hit Martin when he could have pulled his gun on him instead, it is almost certain that Martin knocked him on his ass as the result of the verbal confrontation. An understandable reaction, but illegal.


As I stated, I think both sides are full of it. Martin should have spent a night in jail. The only reason he didn't is because Zimmerman was a murdering piece of shit.

[badtoworse]

163. Of course there's been such an effort. Look at the racial aspect.

The FBI could find nothing to indicate that Z is a racist; so who injected all the racial elements into it?

[Kingofalldems]

168. And Trevor Dooley went to jail for

the same thing. Only difference, Trevor Dooley is black, the victim is white.

Didn't hear any crying from the gunners on this one.

[CreekDog]

172. you don't like any claim of racism against a black person, period.

you have never agreed with a story of racism towards a black person here. ever.

the only time you post with respect to a story or issue concerning racism against a black person is to undermine the claim, outright dispute it or mock it by referring to it as "the race card".

it's transparent.

as transparent as the time months ago when you posted an OP in Meta then alerted on the OP but pretending to be someone else while alerting on it.

[Pablo Guachupita]

183. Zimmerman is a racist wanna-be cop

Thank God he has no gun now.

[McPops]

194. He probably has one by now

And if anyone has a legitimate claim to need the protection of a gun, it's probably Zimmerman.

[hrmjustin]

195. He is a murderer so he should not have one. In my opinion the jury made the wrong choice.

[billh58]

242. I have not seen

this many right-wing trolls and sock puppets swarm to DU in a long while.

[Rex]

199. Why would he need a gun?

He has all of Sanford PD to back him up.

[Socal31]

208. What makes you say that?

(the 2nd part of your post)

[BainsBane]

211. Suddenly you take the totally opposite point of view

Not very convincing. 95% of people might consider that odd.

[DrewFlorida]

203. As surely as we know OJ is a murderer, we also know Zimmerman is a murderer.

Whether he racially profiled him or was just overexcited to potentially catch a thief and springboard his career as a police officer, he still murdered a teenager who was innocently walking home.
You and others can pretend that all of the other details matter, but they don't.

George Zimmerman is a murderer, nothing you say can change that!

[McPops]

206. Truth by blatant assertion

C'mon, we can do better than that.

As far as OJ... I am reasonably certain that he murdered those two people.

As far as Zimmerman goes... I would need to know more about what actually happened between the time the two confronted each other and the time Trayvon gave up the ghost.

[hrmjustin]

213. Go ahead and say how you feel.

[hrmjustin]

217. what made you sign up if thats how you feel?

[hrmjustin]

220. Ok fair enough. Enjoy the site.

[uppityperson]

228. Zombies do not last long.

[Warren DeMontague]

229. Know what's even better?

The system's gonna delete everything you say, too.

[Warren DeMontague]

234. even better than that

[Little Star]

235. The only things I know, is that if Z had stayed in his car after calling the non emergency line, and

continued on his way to Target, Trayvon would be alive today.

Zimmerman is a friggin murderer who got away with killing an innocent kid who was doing nothing wrong & I hate him for that!

[OneGrassRoot]

237. Snopes debunks the TM pic lies, and I have a question for you:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/martin.asp

Why are you not asking about why the right-wing, pro-Zimmerman people have lied and painted a different picture than what we know happened?

There are many things we will never know for certain. But there are indeed flat-out lies out there, and the pics are one of them.

[Skip Intro]

241. Well,

Snopes says the date of the pic is uncertain, and I don't watch faux news, so I don't know what they're reporting, but their reporting does not have the reach of, or public trust of, what is often referred to as the "mainstream media."

The bigger point, and I'm repeating myself just for you, isn't about TM or Z. This is about the evident decision by certain ptb in the msm to "inform" the public with purposely manipulated transcripts and falsehoods, eliciting strong emotional responses from those being deceived.

That happened.

Why?

Do you not find the fact that the msm can and does manipulate the public via lies and misleading "reports," as part of some evident but unseen agenda, a worthy topic of discussion?

[OneGrassRoot]

243. The pic in question has been reported by right-wingers as age 12...

The Martin Family said it was taken six months prior to his death, and when compared to his junior class photo taken at approximately the same time, it is easy to see that that is likely true. Lighting, facial expression, etc. make a huge different in pictures.

I'm not inclined to believe that the Martin Family would lie about his age in that picture, not given the scrutiny they have been under.

I absolutely agree that the MSM does manipulate the public in myriad ways. No doubt about that. Ultimately, it comes down to the Almighty Dollar. How/why various outlets manipulate news is likely done for a variety of reasons, but the bottom line is, the bottom line. And it's awful. I agree that's worthy of discussion.

[jimrich]

255. How it happened

re: I don't know how things happened that night. I wasn't there.
>> Watch these police interview videos of Zimmerman and it will be perfectly clear what happened that night.
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/trayvon-martin-trial-quote-police-interview?src=soc_fcbks
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023096266
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023131553

It's interesting how the two detectives do their best to get Zimmerman to explain to them what "set Marin off" to cause him to ALLEGEDLY attack Zimmerman but Zimmerman uses his "I don't know" or his "I don't remember" excuse over and over in response to many significant police questions. If one assumes that Zimmerman is lying or making stuff up to cover up his obvious STALKING of Martin it becomes clear that Zimmerman INITIATED the violent encounter with Martin and most likely (I know that's not evidence) started the fight which led to a shooting. Even the detectives see serious flaws in Zimmerman's pathetic account and try their best to HELP Zimmerman construct a more plausible and believable "story" of how and why he followed Martin and SET HIM OFF so badly. I wonder if the prosecution ever showed these police interviews of Zimmerman to the jury and, if they did, why the jury accepted Zimmerman's version of events WITHOUT QUESTION? Even the detectives find Zimmerman's story UNBELIEVABLE but try to make it believable by putting words in his mouth! I'd say these videos alone make Zimmerman the AGGRESSOR and guilty of man-slaughter at least! Can you help me find the actual trial record or some trial videos to show if the prosecution ever played these videos for the jury?