I really dont like all this hate against my state.

[darkangel218]

FL is a purple state. A lot of liberals live here. What did we do to you, for you to punish the whole state?
Even if economically a boycott won't affect us much, its simply disturbing to see all the hate OPs telling us how aweful we are.

I don't think we are aweful st all. FL is an amazing state. Yah, we have our bad apples, like every other state. And we have work to do on amending SYG, along with many other things. But its not our fault that GZ was aquitted.

You're punishing millions of people for the mistakes of few. Think about it.

[XemaSab]

1. Oscar Grant and Rodney King

n/t

[KamaAina]

111. Oscar Grant's killer did time

[XemaSab]

125. Touche

[BainsBane]

2. I agree that it's short sighted

People seem to want to blame this on Florida, like every other state doesn't have a racist judicial system. It's a way for them to externalize the problem. The fact is racism is all around us. Black men are profiled and killed in every state in this country, and their killers are not treated as harshly because many Americans consciously or unconsciously view African Americans as worth less than whites. This is as much about our own cities and states as Florida.

[davidpdx]

18. Absolutely

While I'm not happy about several things that have happened in Florida, a boycott (if it works) may only empower those who are doing wrong. The thing is it is more than just the Martin trial for me. The trial of Casey Anthony, the changes in the voting procedures, and the right wing wackjob that runs the state are the other issues.

What we need is a mass take over of Florida by the Democrats on the state level so that some of the laws that have led to these problems can be changed. Then in 2016, we need to help boot Rubio out of office.

[BainsBane]

21. Sounds like a good plan to me.

[HooptieWagon]

28. You don't know the Fl Dem Party.

Most of them are lined up at the corporate feed trough alongside the republicans. They'll fight harder against a progressive running for an open seat than they will a republican. Alan Grayson, Kathy Castor...just a few rays of light.

[davidpdx]

34. Maybe so

I hate to tell you this, that's pretty much the trend in politics in general.

As for the next governor's race, I have a feeling I know who will be running. DUers are not going to be happy about it either.

[Enthusiast]

37. PLUS ONE!

Great post!

[Summer Hathaway]

3. Sorry, DA218 ...

Your state has been scheduled for elimination by the DU Under the Bus committee.

Their rulings are arbitrary, and there is no process of appeal.

If it is of any comfort, DU in no way reflects the opinions of the real world.

So there is that.

I wouldn't worry about it.

[Starry Messenger]

53. Good to know Stevie Wonder isn't part of the real world!

[TheDebbieDee]

82. +1

DU is just going through a phase...............

[Gravitycollapse]

4. How many Floridians vote for people like Rick Scott?

I'm going to guess more than a few.

[demwing]

101. less than half

Scott won with 48%

[YoungDemCA]

103. Less than half of voters in that election...

Not Floridians.

[Gravitycollapse]

116. So millions, not a few.

[hfojvt]

5. you should try being from

Kansas

or Texas

or Alabama

[liberal_at_heart]

15. I'm from Texas. I left and have no desire to go back. I know there are good people in Texas, but

I just don't have any desire to travel to the South. I do admire those liberals and democrats who do stay and fight to make those states blue. I guess you are stronger than I was.

[CTyankee]

71. I did the same, left Texas much to my family's chagrin...but there are good people there fighting

the good fight...

[bvar22]

117. My Wife & I went the OTHER way.

We moved from Big Blue Minneapolis to very Rural Dark Red Arkansas in 2006.
We live here now,
grow a good percentage of our own healthy food,
keep Honey Bees and Chickens,
and focus on local Humanitarian Issues.

We are both active FireFighters and Officers in our local rural Fire Department,
and my Wife is the ONLY Medical First Responder for over 60 square miles.
We have healthy and respectful relationships with our conservative neighbors,
and haven't had problems being accepted by our new community.

We were able to convince many more traditionally Republican voters to vote FOR "The Democrat" in 2008 than we ever did in Minneapolis.

The South is BEAUTIFUL and BOUNTIFUL,
and belongs to everybody.
The Spring Water most people buy in the store for over a Dollar a Gallon
bubbles up out of the ground in our back yard.
We haven't regretted a single day!


---bvar22 & Starkraven
Living WELL on a LOW Taxable Income,
turning the South Blue one vote at a time,
and enjoying life with dirt on our hands and sweat in our pits.

[font size=3]SOLIDARITY with our our Brothers and Sisters who choose to live in The South and fight!!![/font]

[CTyankee]

118. what a great post, bvar!

And that pic is beautiful!

Best wishes to you both. You live an enviable and rewarding life...more power to you!

[bvar22]

119. Thank You.

Our Leap of Faith turned into a blessing.

[pamela]

127. We drove through Arkansas today.

We spent the winter in the southwest and now we're headed back east to visit family. (We live and travel fulltime in a motorhome.) We drove from Texarkana to Lake Village today. I've been to Arkansas several times before but I forgot how pretty it is. I love the desert and the southwest but after 6+ months of it, I'm loving how green it is here.

[davidn3600]

6. Boycott an entire state because you don't like a jury verdict is pretty stupid

What the hell do you want the government to do? Zimmerman would have still been acquitted with that jury even without SYG. The state just simply did not have a case.

And the idea of some to make it so the defendant has to prove self defense? That's completely asinine and un-American. The defendant doesnt have to prove anything because he/she has the presumption of innocence. This is the very foundation of our justice system.

Stand your ground exists in 32 states. Are you going to boycott those as well?

[liberal_at_heart]

8. anytime you kill another human being you should have to prove why it is justified.

[davidn3600]

10. OK...Let's see...

A woman walks down an alley alone. She gets attacked from behind. She fears for her life or that she might get raped. So she pulls out a gun and shoots him. The bullet ends up killing him.

Since there was no witness, and a rape had yet occurred, she can't prove what happened beyond any reasonable doubt. Should she go to prison for life? Do we traumatize her more by telling her she has to prove her actions were self-defense?

By doing what you are suggesting, you are attacking the victim. You are putting the burden of proof on the victim. Which is why such law would be ruled unconstitutional immediately by SCOTUS. An easy 9-0 decision.

[liberal_at_heart]

13. Oh, give me a break. How is Zimmerman who was stalking Martin and making Martin fear for his life

in any way similar to a woman being attacked from behind? Yes, anytime you kill a human being you should have to explain yourself to a jury of your peers. It is up to your peers to decide if what you did is justified. This jury could have found Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter. If I had been on the jury I would have voted for manslaughter. And don't give me the jury's hands were tied crap. They could have voted anyway they wanted to. By not waiting on cops to take care of the situation, by stalking Martin and by carrying a gun while on a citizen's watch patrol Zimmerman is responsible for what ultimately happened to Martin. He is guilty of manslaughter.

[davidn3600]

16. So when I fear for my life...

And I have the ability to kill this person threatening my life... I have to consider, in that moment, whether I should not kill him and hope he lets me live, or I can kill him and assure my survival but then have to worry what some jury is going to think at a trial?

Are you serious?

And what exactly do you hope to accomplish with this policy? Zimmerman was put on trial and was still acquitted.

And what you would do if you were on that jury is meaningless because you would have never been picked for it with the biases and knowledge of the case you hold.

[jtuck004]

32. You are fucking-A right you should have to think about it. Especially if you provoked the

confrontation with someone who had every right to be where they were and to be unmolested by you.

ANY SHOOTING, especially if it leads to death, should be reviewed, and charges filed if the evidence warrants. Unless some coward is too afraid of walking into a courtroom without their gun to explain themselves. In which case the little coward shouldn't carry one in the first place.

What will be accomplished is that people won't think they have free range to simply kill anyone they don't like and claim self-defense. Just because the police were negligent in their investigation in the racist town of Sanford doesn't mean that the next one will walk. Because next time they might get a prosecutor who puts on a strong case instead of just showing up for the day.

And as far as jury selection, in theory a juror married to an attorney who was a member of an association headed by the chief counsel for the defense, who may well have met him at a Christmas party, shouldn't happen either. And jurors who are sequestered shouldn't, in theory, be allowed unsupervised time with people who might influence their thinking. So what the poster above might or might not do, or hold in their head, may well be meaningful.

[davidn3600]

43. That's not what's being discussed

The poster above is saying EVERY time someone dies it should go in front of a jury. That's just nuts. That's not how the system works. You have to have evidence and probable cause to bring any case against any one. That's a constitutional right.

If I am being legitimately attacked by someone...im the victim here...and I am cornered, I have a gun and my attacker is lunging at me with a knife, don't I have the right to pull out that gun and fire? Do I have to go in front of a jury and explain this and hope they see it my way?
Otherwise, what other option do I have? Let him stab me, call the cops, and hope I live?

And as for jury sequestering, I dont know how it is normally done. I have never been on such a jury. But I dont think jurors are treated as if they are in jail. I mean are cops outside the hotel room? Do they still have a TV in the room? Do they still have their cell phones? I've always thought its more of an honor system thing.

[jtuck004]

50. Does the dead person not have a "constitutional right" to life, which you seem

to think you can remove on just your say-so?

The Fifth Amendment...

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

You seem to be suggesting that your rights are more important than theirs, based only on your testimony or statement. No court or grand jury said that the person's crime, that you, and only you, said they were committing, deserved the death penalty that you, and only you, administered, the need based only on your observation? You say they were trying to take your right to life away - well of course you would say that. Got any bridges for sale?

That one section...

"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" - You pulled out your .38 and popped a cap on that person without giving them due process because, well, we are back to you said again, eh?

What due process of law did the person, who is now your victim, have that guaranteed you made any kind of rational, unbiased, unemotional, cold, calculating decision to put a bullet in their head? After you missed with the three others that went various places, because that is the way shootings happen. It's not infrequent that in a real gunfight, not a murder, the intended target doesn't even get hit

Or did you just kill them after you stalked them, because "those assholes always get away, and he must be guilty because he is wearing a hoodie and probably smoked marijuana at some point in his life.

I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw a feather. A light feather.

If you feel you have a reason to pull your gun and shoot them, in defense of your life, AND ASSUMING YOU DIDN'T PROVOKE THE CONFRONTATION, we have laws that govern self-defense. That's enough for me. I would take advantage of them if I happened to be lucky enough to have mine on me, and had enough time to pull it out and couldn't get out of the situation any other way. Then again, I don't put my gun in my pocket and go hunting for people.

And the state, who speaks for the person that would then be the victim in this case, has the right to question that decision. And I welcome that, because it protects me as well.

And here we go with the court thing - that is called an inquest. It is held by a judge, in front of a jury. They can decide whether criminal charges should be filed and then order your ass hauled into another court and made to defend yourself. Then you can explain how you were "legitimately attacked".

They will file charges based on the evidence, and then you are summoned to another court and must defend yourself. Again. Or, at least, so you say. EVERY shooting, most especially in the event of a death based on only the testimony of a self-serving shooter, should be held up to the light of day and examined thoroughly. So an inquest, for every shooting where some lone individual deprives someone else of their life without due process...sure, I can live with that. And that is a jury.

Should you be immediately arrested, incarcerated? Depends on the facts at the scene. Should an inquest be held, perhaps a grand jury? Without question.

Should you run the risk of criminal charges every time you shoot. Damn right, if you decide, on your own volition, to take away another person's life without due process...as opposed to bullshit laws that try to pre-empt that sort of thing, like saying you can "stand your ground". That gives too much leeway to the ignorant racist, or just plain ignorant, with a gun and perhaps a grudge. Hold an inquest. If criminal charges are brought, you can take your chances on the friends of your defense attorney sitting on the jury. That's the fair way.

On the other subject, it's just ignorant hyperbole to infer that jurors are treated as if they are in jail. Afaik, they don't give pedicures in jail, nor take the prisoners on trips to the museum as happened in the Martin case. The intent is to shield them from outside influence that might cause them to make an unjust decision. Television, friends, people the defense attorney plays golf with, etc are all potential sources of altering that verdict by people who have not seen all the evidence. On the other hand, I suspect Michelangelo's David, or having your toenails cut short and waxed, would not motivate a juror to vote either way. Sequester is not done very much, but if it is done poorly, then that's not justice. For anyone.

[davidn3600]

52. Well then the next time a woman kills her rapist, she needs to be put on trial too

After all, wouldnt that dead rapist now be her "victim" according to your philosophy of justice? Did she violate his due process and right to life?

[Igel]

60. No use.

It's a different assumption.

Option 1: The person is innocent until proven guilty, and the burden of proof is on the state. Before the government can remove a person's rights the government has to prove there's a sufficient and necessary reason.

Option 2: The person is guilty until proven not guilty, with the burden of proof on the person. Before a person is entitled to his rights he has to justify himself to the government with sufficient and necessary proof.


It's hard to change that fundamental an assumption once it's been taught and learned. It's not uncommon--it's been the standard for most of humanity for most of recorded history.

[dkf]

70. Bunch of idiots don't get that you can't make one law for women and one for men.

You change the burden of proof and you've just made it impossible for a woman to get out of bad situations unharmed unless they want to go to jail. Give up your life or give up your future.

[jtuck004]

106. That would be for the judge and jury at the inquest to decide. n/t

[ellenfl]

113. i agree except for one thing . . . i think the state blew the case. eom

[TM99]

7. How long have you been involved in with politics?

You are going to need a much thicker skin.

I live in Arizona, and I was born in the South. I hear the same things over and over again.

Exceptions to the rule, of course, but maybe just maybe the rule is correct. Some states right now are just horrible overall in their values, their leadership, their rulings of law, and their social structures.

When a state gets like FL or AZ, it isn't the mistakes of a 'few', it is the mistakes of the majority because that is how 'they' got in to and remain in political power.

Interest group liberalism is du jour, so give it a few months. There will be another case, in another state, with another social issue, that will draw the attention away from FL to the next state. Such is the body politic today in the good old US of A.

[Cha]

39. You're making sense. There needs to be something done

about the majority in a state like Florida that is enacting insane laws.

Personally I love Florida.. one of my sisters and her fam live there. Lived there myself in the 70s. Visted twice in this century.

Nationwide boycotts get attention.. maybe it will help or maybe not. I can see why they would try. It won't be me boycotting FL OJ, though. I live in Hawai'i and we have our own oranges.

[Blue_In_AK]

89. Yeah, Alaska sure had to take its lumps

Last edited Wed Jul 24, 2013, 10:59 AM - Edit history (1)

during the Palin era.

[TM99]

92. Exactly!

I am actually a bit surprised at all of the 'whining' about a possible boycott of FL. For most of those posting here, it will mean nothing. It might impact those in the 1% who are pushing through shitty laws that lead to shitty outcomes like Zimmerman's trail.

What makes Floridians any more special and why for should they not be boycotted as Alaska, Arizona, Texas, etc. have been?

That's the fun question I wouldn't mind hearing an answer to.

[ErikJ]

9. Floridians must learn that they have been bad boys and girls

[L0oniX]

86. I'm sorry mommy. I promise I won't do it again. n/t

[LittleBlue]

11. If we boycotted every state that had an unjust verdict

there would be no more interstate travel.

[bluedigger]

12. Not to mention no place to live...

[ErikJ]

14. It was the boycott of Arizona that finally made them honor MLK Day holiday.

boycotts work.

[BradinSC]

55. South Carolina has been under boycott

For well over 10 years (maybe close to 20 I lose track sometimes). I wouldn't put too much faith in it.

A better use if energy would be to redirect it into improving lived in all communities through volunteering, mentoring, and activism. Groups, faith based and secular, love to talk about what is wrong but it seems when the rubber meets the road it is easier to bitch than to actually engage.

[handmade34]

76. you deserve a hug

[UncleTomsEvilBrother]

56. Exactly

It's no wonder that Republicans win local races and have a majority everything majority but the Presidency - because DEMS only see what is in front of us and not the small print. There is a reason that the DEMS have over 500,000 more registered in FL that the REPS but both houses and the Governor's seat are run by REPS.

We lose because we don't like using rational strategy and playing the long game that the REPS play. Those of you asking how a boycott will change a verdict are doing some serious strawman arguing, and I am hoping it's on purpose. You can't be that shallow in your line of thinking.

The way boycotts work is by pressuring an agency economically. We have Stevie Wonder, et. al. who have decided to boycott playing in the State. Right now, I can tell you that this music festival will be immediately affected: http://miamimusicweek.com/artist/ and this one: http://www.winterparty.com/ - hurting the state economically. Those agencies actually leave the state or pressure the state to change its laws. It's really kinda classic, y'all.

Let's just assume that popular athletes, liberal leaning businesses and other entertainers (and they will) get involved with this boycott, then the scrutiny will not be allowed to be ignored. "Black Twitter" is also becoming a juggernaut for information, protest, and activism.

Of course, FL does not address all of the problems with the SYG law, but it is a start, and the boycotts are a stance that have to be taken.

My favorite kind of "boycott" is through my vote, but as we know, the FL DEM party struggles with local and statewide elections.

Those of you who are wondering why we don't address all the other states with a SYG law, well, why don't you start with your own form of protest in those states? I will gladly get in line behind you and support you. Until then, please, please, please let those of us in FL who are doing everything in our power that we know how to get this law repealed.

[Electric Monk]

17. Threads like this tend not to end well.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/bizarre/by-craig-pittman-via-slate/2131298

[adirondacker]

19. The irony is that Every state has racist bigots. I recall a Harpers article that had a map of the US

with various hate groups depicted (arian brotherhood, KKK and the like). Some states with the highest density were northeastern (PA, NY, CT in particular) I'm thinking a lot of folks need to focus their energy in their own backyard.

Harper Article — From the March 2000 issue Hate springs eternal. (need a subscription to download)

[XemaSab]

29. SPLC has a map too

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map

[cali]

41. Alas, so much of that map is baloney

They count one guy blogging in Vermont- and even before he quit blogging about politics, I can't find anything that qualifies him as a hate group on his blog- at least no more than the average right wing repub. The SPLC, which I admire, just doesn't do a good job on this. They count a freakin' traditional monastary in NY as a hate group.

It's just unreliable as hell. When you count 1 guy blogging as a hate group, you lose all credibility. Here's a link to this "hate group":

http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/pages/5/581/bio.html

[Igel]

62. Look at the temptation.

The bigger the number of hate groups, the more important they can view themselves and claim to be. The more justifiable their existence and requests for aid as well as the outrage that often drives campaigns for reaching political goals.

Money is a temptation. Political power and prestige are others. They're highly motivated to make the # as big as possible instead of applying some sort of reasonableness criterion.


(They probably also don't want the person who reported the lone blogger as a hate group to be told, "Sorry, but no" only to have "Why are you defending a racist, standing up for a hater?" thrown back in their faces.)

[adirondacker]

102. Excellent point, that I hadn't considered. Thanks. nt

[adirondacker]

97. Thanks for bringing that to attention. While I can agree that SPLC may "over react" to an individual

I think there are plenty of unaccounted for groups. Where I live, you could probably consider 90% of the town a hate group. Many will go around and spew racist bullshit 24/7 unchallenged. They need someone to hate and blame besides the rightwing politicians. We also have a group of soldier of fortune guys that get together in summertime to shoot military weapons nonstop into the hillside. (It really makes for living in the country peaceful)
When I lived in CT someone would drop off "flyers" of arian brotherhood in the middle of the night (cowards) every couple of months. I often thought about leaving them a note to say if you're so righteous, why not go door to door with your message.

neither of these places have a mark on them from the SPLC.

side note. I believe the map in the Harper's article was a bit different, but can't think of anyone besides the SPLC as being their source.

[pipi_k]

77. If I hadn't heard about this

in the early 1990s, I wouldn't have believed it...about there being a pretty significant and active KKK presence in CT, I mean.

Back then I was living with a Native American/First Nations guy and we went on twice yearly vacations to a certain CT coastal area.

He was very social and met some other NA people who told him to be careful because of the KKK presence in the area. I guess either they, or minorities they knew, had been targets of the hatred.

So yeah...even in places other than the South...or Red states...or Florida...

[nil desperandum]

110. Connecticut

I agree about the northeast especially as a NIMBY type environment. Say one thing actively pursue another. I served at Ft. Benning GA for a number of years, in 1980 I returned to CT and entered the CT National Guard. We were placed on standby for a KKK rally being held in Scotland CT...about 50 pathetic morons burning a cross. The upside was the Klan was outnumbered about 10-15 to 1 in this situation, for me having grown up in a small community in CT it was discouraging to see this. I still live in New England and I see it every day, folks tell me they're not racists based on zero criteria. They have no friends of any race other than their own, and actively avoid areas where they might bump into a minority...kind of puts the lie to their thoughts even if they are not aware of it.

You don't have to be able to throw a rock too far to hit some racist pretty much anywhere you want to look in the US....

[adirondacker]

114. Thanks for the verification. There is plenty of creepiness in the Northeast, but also some fine

liberal oasis', which can't be discounted either.

[DontTreadOnMe]

20. Boycotts work

it seems it is the only thing that works these days, because the only thing people care about is their wallets.

[BainsBane]

22. How is it going to work?

What do you think will happen? They will reverse the jury verdict? Is there an actual goal here?

The entire idea of boycotting Florida shows absolutely no awareness of racism and justice in this country. Pretend that all the racism in the judicial system exists in Florida while in every other state in this county black men are killed all the time, and racism goes on unabated. It's a good way for people to avoid their own complicity in perpetuating racism and gun violence by pretending it's all the fault of one state. There is nothing unique about Florida. The fact people payed attention to one case, while hundreds like them occur every year, some much closer to where any one of us lives.

[HooptieWagon]

24. Supposedly Stevie Wonder fans will stage a coup de e'tat.

At least that appears to be the reasoning.

[BainsBane]

25. I don't follow that

but I seriously doubt there is much more thought or logic than that behind the entire idea. No wonder nothing ever changes in this country.

[HooptieWagon]

23. Poutrage du jour...

...and grandstanding. Florida has been boycotted by various groups since the 70s with no effect. DUers bashing other states or regions are merely another genre of bigots.

[cordelia]

54. This

[CC]

26. You know what, I love Florida as a place,

spent a lot of my growing up years there and know there are some wonderful people there, hell I even have family there that I not only love but like but I'm not stepping foot in that f'ed up state until you all start electing some sane people into office in numbers high enough to make a difference. It is not just Trayvon or SYG (which I had fits about when it passed). You have a screwed up government turning you into the Third World Banana Republic of Flalala these days. Florida is one place where a boycott by tourist might actually work because it would hurt the State coffers. At least then Scott and company would have less money to funnel into their buddies bank accounts.

Yes Florida is an amazing and beautiful state that I miss but your government is ruining it and I don't feel like using my hard earned dollars to prop up your government.

[HiPointDem]

27. It's not 'hate'. It's a political protest.

[SunSeeker]

30. Exactly. I'll spend my vacation dollars in progressive Hawaii.

Or I'll just staycation here in California.

[HiPointDem]

31. i think 'hate' is more like when you stalk somebody with a gun & kill them.

[otohara]

122. It's Not Safe in Florida

and the other stand your ground states.
Loser gun laws = higher murder rates.

Fuck that and if I get shot... I want the person who does it to go to jail.

[JoeyT]

33. I wouldn't worry about a boycott.

If they're that determined to boycott Florida, they couldn't have passed through Alabama, Tennessee, or Georgia to get there anyway.

Or pretty much any other state, for that matter. I'd never actually seen a real life honest to goodness neo-Nazi until I was in New York.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

35. Those millions who voted Republican brought it on themselves.

[Enthusiast]

36. I don't hate Florida.

I hope they can rid themselves of the bad actors like the Jebster and Scott.

I love the Florida novels like the ones by Carl Hiaasen and Randy Wayne White.

FWIW, I was only in Florida once, clear back in 1970!

[BainsBane]

38. DarkAngel, none of this people were going to go to FL

anyway. It's hot air, an excuse to make a big deal about doing nothing.

[bravenak]

40. I still want to see Florida one day.

I will still drink my OJ.
I'm sad that Zimmerman won't pay.
I think the people of Florida are plenty outraged. Some are broken hearted and cried harder than I at the verdict. The struggle continues, and we should support our fellow citizens and help them get those laws changed. It won't be easy and it won't be quick, but in the end progress will win.
We should find common cause with our fellow Americans in Florida who want changes made and fight together. We are stronger that way.

[steve2470]

42. Darkangel, I think the problem is Seminole County/Sanford and places like that

If the murder had occurred in Gainesville or Miami Beach or even Orlando, I think the police would have done a much better job and Zimmerman probably would have been convicted.

If a boycott can actually get the SYG law repealed, I can't argue against it.

If it makes you feel any better, in a few months Kansas or Georgia or some other red state will be getting criticized.

[BainsBane]

44. What about SYG in all the other states in the country?

And how is a boycott going to get a law repealed?

[steve2470]

45. good point, and I don't know how it would work to get a repeal

I'd like that to be explained to me. The boycott would have to be declared explicitly against the SYG law.

If a boycott would not work, then, no, I'm totally opposed to it because it would hurt working men and women and have no positive result.

[BainsBane]

46. When I asked some questions in another thread

and said I thought the boycott missed the point that racism was endemic in our justice system throughout the country, not just in Florida, I was told "not to over-intellectualize it." Evidently thinking is discouraged.

[steve2470]

47. people are very angry right now, and I do understand

Florida is my home state and has many flaws. Our government needs to change. Of course, other states need to change also.

Racism is endemic in the justice system, moreso in some places like Sanford/Seminole County, Florida. Right now I don't see the boycott really materializing, but if it does, it needs to be precisely targeted at the SYG law. Otherwise, it's harmful to the working people here, many of which are not at fault for this terrible situation. I always vote and donate to Democrats, but sadly the last Florida Democratic chair was in favor of SYG.

[Bluenorthwest]

78. It is reductive of the truth in a discussion of law and policy to pretend it is all the

same throughout the country. This is highly disrespectful to places that do better, that strive to do better. Take homophobia. Please. No, seriously it is obviously true that homophobia is endemic, taints the justice system and exists in all places. It is also just as true that 29 States including Florida allow for open, full voiced discrimination against LGBT people in every way, housing, employment, services. Those 29 States are NOT just like the States that do not allow such discrimination. Of course this does not mean that the 21 States with protections have no bigots in them, it does mean the bigots do not rule.
So this pretense that 'all States are the same' because all States contain bigots is an argument imbued with majority status, the differences don't matter to you. But nothing is more gag inducing than reading folks from 'Discrimination is OK' States claim they are not any different from States which do not allow that discrimination.
Florida has election issues that other States do not have. To claim 'it's national' when it is Florida every cycle dwadling about as if running an election was just too hard for them is simply not fair to a State like Oregon that has large turn out and works hard to make voting easy for all citizens. Our elections are not just like Florida's. We do it much, much better. Much. They make some people stand in line for hours. No one stands in line here.

[RockaFowler]

48. As a Floridian I agree

Look, there are many of us who have complained about Florida for years. We have been here through the 70's and Anita Bryant. We have been here protesting the 2000 election. We tried to support Democrats, but we get more and more Repukes taking over our state. Those of us in South Florida have it even worse. We live in the bluest part of the state and we get no representation in Tallahassee. The Repukes in the panhandle and Tampa have taken over this state. But hey, we voted for the President in 2008 and 2012 - and it wasn't even close. They have tried to suppress our vote many times, but we keep coming back. I personally wish we could have the Presidential election at the same time as the Governor's race. We never would have gotten Skeletor then.

[Divernan]

49. Right! What's not to love?

I'll leave the rest of you to debate the political/crappy laws/favorite son, Jeb Bush issues. Let's discuss quality of life. The suggestion I make to anyone I know who is considering retiring, relocating, or moving to Florida is first of all, don't; secondly, if you do go, go only for the winter months; and thirdly, do NOT buy property there, no matter how cheap it is. Rent or lease only. It is not that I hate Floridians or that I want to punish them. I think many people have some unrealistic dream of retiring to a tropical paradise and I know from experience that Florida is none such. Add to that global climate change, and south Florida is pretty much doomed. If you own property there, I strongly suggest you sell while you can still find some starry-eyed Northern retiree to buy it, and rent or lease if you are determined to stay in the state.
(I lived in Florida - the Cape - for 3 years. One of my kids was born there.)

Here are some of the reasons I give them.
HOUSING
Let's see: Ground Zero for the Housing Bubble. Foreclosure central.

Climate change is expected to increase sea levels by more than three feet over the coming century, while strengthening hurricanes and storm surges, thereby placing residents in low lying areas at greater risk from flooding. This is particularly pertinent to Florida, which has 2.4 million people and 1.3 million homes at risk from a four foot rise in sea levels.

For Florida’s southern counties, this trend is particularly troubling. The majority of residents in danger of flooding live in these low lying areas built on porous limestone, which renders levees like those in Louisiana ineffective.

A report published by NOAA predicts that “anthropogenic warming over the next century will lead to an increase in the numbers of very intense hurricanes in some basins,” that these hurricanes will “be more intense on average,” and that “anthropogenic warming by the end of the 21st century will likely cause hurricanes to have substantially higher rainfall rates.” These trends will all contribute to greater risks of coastal flooding and property damage.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/08/29/768861/climate-denial-in-florida-is-a-risky-proposition/

Lovely assortment of insects: cockroaches, palmetto bugs & lots & lots of skeeters. West Nile,anyone? Dengue fever? Malaria? Encephalitis?

For mosquito agencies and public health authorities across the state, the surge is shaping up as another season of increasing concern about mosquito-borne diseases like West Nile virus, malaria, Eastern equine encephalitis and dengue fever, which has become a rising risk in South Florida.

The flu-like virus, sometimes called “break-bone fever” because of the excruciating joint pain it can cause, emerged in Key West in 2009 with 27 cases from mosquito bites, the first in Florida since 1934. Another 66 cases were recorded in 2010; none since. But a handful have since cropped up in Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties.

With dengue spreading globally and running at epidemic levels in many Latin and Caribbean countries, public health experts expect the disease to slowly spread in Florida, with its large populations of immigrants and international travelers. The virus is carried in the human bloodstream but transmitted by the bite of a common and difficult-to-control mosquito called Aedes aegypti.

“Miami-Dade is an entry gate,’’ said Pedro Noya-Chaveco, a biological scientist for the Miami-Dade County Health Department. “We have a lot of people traveling to endemic areas. People come here for a visit and go to other places.’’

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/06/11/3445836/after-rains-in-south-florida-mosquito.html#storylink=cpy

Alligators & many types of poisonous snakes showing up in yards and on golf courses - happens when native habitats are taken over by developers. Nothing will jolt you awake like seeing a coral snake snuggled next to your garbage can. Remember to send a sympathy card to your neighbor whose lap dog fell prey to what the locals refer to as "nuisance gators". The following example is one of many. First your little dog, next your 2 year old grandchild.

This Exists: 72-Year Old Florida Man Fights Off Alligator To Save His Dog
by Jon Bershad | 1:45 pm, May 23rd, 2011 video » 9 comments

Well, here’s a news report that blew my mind. Sure, I’ve never lived in an area where giant, terrifying lizard monsters are calmly referred to as “nuisance alligators” by reporters so I don’t know if this kind of thing is common day to the citizens of Palm City, Florida. But, for a northern boy like me, 72-year-old Gary Murphy, a man who fought off an alligator that was trying to eat his dog, sounds like the biggest bad ass ever.

It all took place right out behind Murphy’s house when he noticed something was up with his little Westie, Doogie. WPTV has the story: “‘I’m right here, standing right here and I hear a yipe,’ says Murphy, standing behind his home which sits in a marsh along the St. Lucie River. ‘I look down. The gator’s right here with Doogie in his mouth.’

Murphy didn’t hesitate, after all Doogie is more than a dog, he’s a constant companion.

‘I must have cleared this by a foot,’ says Murphy, referring to the rope railing that runs along the dock. ‘I had loafers on and I hit the back of that gator. It was like jumping on a pile of rocks. But when I did, I caught him right behind the head here, I hit him here and his mouth opened and Doogie took off and the gator turned around and went under the boat and out he went.’”

For example, here is a sampling of news articles:

Alligator grabs, drowns boy in marina
Alligator suspected of killing toddler
Florida Woman Loses Part of Arm to Alligator Attack
Woman injured by gator in lake
Gator bites off arm of Kanapaha exec

http://www.marshallbrain.com/cp/alligators.htm

Hurricanes? I went to a presentation by the director of Florida's Emergency Management Agency. He had a map of the state with a series of plastic overlays depicting the paths of hurricanes. Not a square mile of the state was left unscathed at some point. Then there's this itsy bitsy problem with evacuation. Many elderly no longer drive. Even if you have a car, there is an inadequate highway/road system to evacuate the huge population - GRIDLOCK! The heavy concentration of residents along the ocean and gulf coasts leaves them currently exposed to hurricanes, tidal surges & flooding; as well as losing their properties to rising ocean levels in the not too distant future.

Extreme, debilitating summer heat & humidity. Florida is typically the most humid area in the United States, which can make it feel just as hot, or hotter, than the western deserts. Usually, it is not the high temperatures that make summer conditions dangerous; rather, it is the amount of humidity, or moisture, in the air. Since Florida is surrounded by water on three sides, no point in the state is more than 60 miles from the ocean and or more than 345 feet above sea level. This means there is an abundance of tropical moisture and humidity over the state. When this high humidity combines with the hot temperatures of the summer months, the heat index goes off the charts. When the heat index reaches 105°F or higher, conditions can become dangerous for people and animals. Elderly persons, small children, and small animals are particularly vulnerable to heat stress. When the combination of heat and humidity reaches levels that can cause heat cramps, heat exhaustion, or heatstroke, the National Weather Service will issue Heat Advisories or Excessive Heat Warnings.

Worsening water shortage: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11097869

Sink holes swallowing up your homes.

"This is sinkhole weather," said Anthony Randazzo, a retired geology professor at the University of Florida and president of Geohazards Inc. "It's very much to be expected that there would be numerous sinkholes opening up following a tropical storm, especially after a period of drought. This type of weather pattern is very conducive to the triggering of sinkholes."

Sinkhole formation starts with water. Rocks such as the limestone that dominates the area begin to dissolve when they're exposed to acidic water, such as rain. For eons, acidic water has flowed through the rocks in Florida, dissolving limestone and creating underground voids. When the ground above those voids collapses, a sinkhole is formed.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/environment/line-of-sinkholes-could-be-sign-of-more-to-come/2126516

[Ghost of Tom Joad]

51. So much of the tourist economy comes from

Canada and Europe. Does anyone think they give a rats ass about our local politics? They come here to get away from their crappy weather and enjoy our beautiful beaches:

http://www.drbeach.org/top10beaches.htm

I would almost enjoy a boycott if that means I could get a parking space at Siesta and enjoy the beach without all those tourists.

[LuvNewcastle]

57. Darkangel, if it's any consolation, I don't believe this boycott,

if it's ever organized, will be effective. Several years ago there was a boycott of Mississippi because we had a referendum on the state flag. There was a push by some to change the flag because it has the Confederate flag on it. About 65% of the people (65%of Mississippians are white) voted to keep the flag. There was subsequently a boycott, organized by the NAACP, I believe, but it went nowhere. The main reason people come to MS anymore is gambling and people weren't going to stop coming here when they got the itch.

Kids are still going to want to visit Disney World; college students are still going to go to Daytona and Panama City; people are still going to drink their orange juice. If this boycott is organized, and I don't think it will be, it won't last long. But the more people talk about it, the more publicity it will get. If Floridians get worried about it and talk about it, it will actually serve to help the cause move forward. The best thing for y'all to do is not think about it and let it blow over.

If I thought this boycott would actually work, I'd support it, but I don't think it will have an impact on Florida's laws. Floridians themselves must demand a change if people really want it to change. Maybe y'all can organize a statewide effort to have a referendum on the law or challenge it in the state courts. That's the best way to work for change. It's always better if you can get the people to make changes themselves rather than having outsiders force change.

[madville]

58. Why does the boycott or cause never match the initial problem

Zimmerman is found not guilty because his team mounted a traditional self-defense defense because he wouldn't have won a SYG hearing. So what does everyone do? Repeal SYG now!

Same way with the anti-gun lobby. Something happens and they use it as a reason to pursue an unrelated cause and can't even get the facts straight.

I think it makes people look uninformed and causes them to not be taken seriously.

[Igel]

65. It's emotionally satisfying.

It gives a focus to the hate, anger, and frustration that people feel over what's mostly a symbol of the fear they have locally. Of their own kids being killed--we'll say by "racist whites" when the odds are that any black teenager that's killed is killed by another black under the age of 30, but to focus on that too much feeds the stereotype of black criminality and lawlessness.

It's one reason for having to make TM a virtuous innocent. He's 17, a junior, and one of the dominant images when pre-trial was of him a few years younger and smiling and looking like an African-American Donny Osmond. We play down anything bad and justify it because it makes him more innocuous, less of a person who might be seen as threatening. And his image is "everyblacks'" image. Post trial, the dominant image of him was in a hoodie, face distorted by the fish-eye lens, not smiling. He had to be an off-stage actor in a morality play.

Then there are fears of being unemployed. Of losing one's home. Of being suspected of doing things and being humiliated. Real fears.

It finds an excuse for the problems, preferably one that's far away, preferably one that they can collectively muster the power to overcome but if they can't it's not a meaningful loss. If they can whip the Florida racists, perhaps things can change locally. If they can't, well, nobody really thought they could.

(I could, oddly enough, write the same thing about the Tea Party folk. Lots of fears, externalizing the problem and making the problem into some institution with a racialist premise, taking on a large symbolic problem in the name of the American Way that they can't probably beat but in which a loss is not a defeat. People are people and we've been doing the same kind of game for millennia.)

[MineralMan]

59. Such calls for boycotts are shortsighted.

As you point out, there are injustices in every state, blue or red. The goal should be to encourage Democrats in every state to work together to cause change. Boycotts are useless for this purpose.

I'm not in Florida, so there's very little I can do there. It's up to Florida Democrats to lead voters to elect representatives who will do their will in that state.

[CTyankee]

64. to a point, I agree, but states can and do take steps to try harder and do better.

I cannot tell you the shock and deep shame I felt when Sandy Hook happened. I love living in CT and pride myself on living in such a progressive state. I love the heritage of Amistad and Griswold v. CT because I see them as being steps to right past wrongs.

But the CT state lege stepped up and took ownership of the state's problem and did something about it. I don't know and wouldn't dream of telling what FL should or can do. The people of each state must do it for themselves...all I can do is support the leaders of my state who are trying to do the right thing. Thank god for Dan Malloy, Dick Blumenthal and Chris Murphy, too...

[MineralMan]

69. Boycotts can work when they are directed towards

individual companies and the like. Boycotting an entire state is not a productive exercise, in my opinion. It's just a kneejerk reaction to something that has happened in that state. The Zimmerman trial does not reflect on the entire state of Florida. It would be more productive to do some research to see if any company you already do business with in Florida has any stance on that trial and on SYG laws that are the opposite of your own opinion. If so, inform that company that you will not do business with them, due to that stance. That has an impact. Blanket declarations of boycott do nothing, since they affect nobody directly.

For example, I don't travel to Florida, and do no business I'm aware of with anyone in that state. I can declare a boycott, but it is meaningless. Only boycotts with direct and immediate effects on an organization or business have any impact.

While declaring such a general boycott may make a person feel good, if it has no effect on anyone, then it has no impact.

[CTyankee]

75. If enough people in the state feel the shame of what happened, it CAN have a psychological

impact. Nobody likes to feel shame about the state they call home. However, it is also not fair to blame every FL resident. But I do think residents should think about what happened and see what they CAN do to effect change. I felt that way after Sandy Hook and certainly our state legislators took it very hard.

[ErikJ]

61. We have to hold criminal states accountable.

[ladjf]

63. "... mistakes of a few." It seems like more that a few Floridians are making bad political

mistakes.

[backscatter712]

66. Thanks to the Zimmerman case, FL is now the symbol.

And I believe in being strategic rather than being fair, which means we deliberately focus boycotting efforts on Florida and make an example of them.

Don't tell me "Other states do it too." Florida is the symbol, therefore it is the target. Furthermore, we get better results when we focus on one target rather than diffusing efforts to be "fair."

We don't have to be fair. We do what it takes to win.

[RBInMaine]

67. I love vacationing in FL. Been 6 times. Will again. But get a D gov. and legislature in there.

[Blue_Tires]

68. I blame LeBron...That is still entirely Florida's fault...

[ksoze]

72. I'm still waiting for the CA boycott over the OJ verdict

[L0oniX]

87. ^^^^this^^^^

[stevenleser]

73. People don't realize how Florida is really 3 distinctly different places. My suggestion to all is...

... patronize the blue and purple areas of the state and stay away from the red areas. Of course, that is what people tend to do anyway without thinking about it. Pretty much all the places in Florida you want to go are Blue or Purple.

Blue area - Southeast Florida on the coast from Miami/Ft Lauderdale to West Palm Beach

Red area - Northern Florida, i.e. north of the I-4 corridor, any area other than the I-4 corridor that is over 20 miles from the coast and also Southwest Florida from Sarasota/Bradenton South to Cape Coral/Naples. Sarasota/Bradenton are beautiful as is Naples, those are probably some of the few areas you might want to visit despite their politics. My suggestion is to resist that urge.

Purple Area - The I-4 corridor from Tampa/St. Pete to Orlando to Daytona/Ormond Beach. You win this area, you win a state wide race in general.

[kentauros]

74. They won't think about it. Trust me. I'm a Native Texan.

On DU, it's all about the knee. And the jerk, however you want to apply that particular word's various definitions

Welcome to the club!
And you do have my sympathies and support

[Bluenorthwest]

80. Ah, Texas! Along with Florida another of the 29 States in which it is legal to discriminate

against LGBT people. Understand I avoid places that allow me to be treated unjustly. You can characterize that as 'knee jerk' all day long, but it is protecting myself and my family from ignorant and bigoted laws.
You think those who refuse to be discriminated against as jerks. Do you want to know what we think of those who allow legal discrimination against their own neighbors and children? I don't think you do.

[kentauros]

81. Thankfully, I don't care what you think.

I will point out that Houston was the first major metropolitan center to elect an openly gay mayor (Annise Parker) and we have one of the largest LGBT populations in the country. They're not just sitting on their thumbs in the fight for their rights. There's no "allowing" going on.

But, I'm sure you knew all of that, and somehow chose to ignore it.

[Bluenorthwest]

88. It's not opinion it is fact, discrimination against LGBT people is legal in Texas. Fully.

You think I somehow OWE Texas my money and presence? I don't go to the States that ALLOW discrimination against my family, 29 States do allow that, Texas is one of them.
You find it comfortable to pretend the law in Texas is just like the law in CA or NY or Oregon. It is not. You want to ignore the reality.
It is the straight population of these States that allow the discrimination against their neighbors and their own children. The law is not a force of nature, it is created by the citizens of those States. It was crafted, made and enforced.

[kentauros]

94. "You think I somehow OWE Texas my money and presence?"

I have no idea where you got that from my statement. Again, I don't care what you think. You're doing a lot of assuming about me, too. Do I need to spell out that little ditty about the word "assume"?

Now, I will say that I don't really follow your logic about the "allowing" part. Does it mean that in every instance where Dems lost, it was because they allowed that loss to happen? They didn't try hard enough? You're not making sense.

[rrneck]

79. Last time I looked Floridians were United States citizens. nt

[Puzzledtraveller]

83. kick

[kestrel91316]

84. Don't blame DUers or outsiders who boycott. Blame your fellow Floridians who choose to be

racist, sexist, hate-filled nut jobs who vote for fascist laws and officials.

[L0oniX]

85. The Dem votes from Florida are not wanted? OK.

[Arcanetrance]

90. I will still go to visit my family that moved there Florida really doesn't come off any more fucked

up than any other state in this country.

[William769]

91. I stand with you on this.

[bigwillq]

93. I think these boycott ideas are dumb.

That's not going to change the law.
If you want the law change, work to change the law. Don't boycott orange juice. D'OH!

[nolabear]

95. As a woman who grew up in MS and LA I appreciate your pain. It's so easy to broad brush.

Really thinking is hard. I support boycotting because it sends a message but I do it with huge respect for all the wonderful people in FLA and great affection for the good things about it. And there are many.

Thanks for stepping up. Hopefully we can all fight the wrongs that afflict ALL our states together.

[cthulu2016]

96. The governor and state legislature are not "the mistakes of a few"

[backscatter712]

98. The whole point of a boycott is to put pressure on Florida's businesses.

When they see the hit to their balance sheets, then they start pressuring Gov. Voldemort and things get better.

[UncleTomsEvilBrother]

105. I don't see...

I don't see how people can't understand that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

99. awww. nt

[HardTimes99]

100. I have such mixed feelings, and I definitely appreciate

your position.

I think a more targeted boycott makes more sense tactically and strategically. Boycott Disney, for example, or the Dolphins.

I'm not a big fan of 'collective punishment.'

[YoungDemCA]

104. How does one even "average out" any state, let alone one of tens of millions of people?

People are not numbers. And states are not people.

[Apophis]

107. Your state sucks.

Get over it.

[darkangel218]

108. Nonsense. nt

[carolinayellowdog]

109. the only people who can boycott every state where racial injustice is prevalent

are people outside the US entirely

[NuttyFluffers]

112. didn't enjoy it for CA and prop H8, but agreed it was right

when wrong things happen they must be made right. all the pain in between is just atonement.

and for prop H8 we had to atone. we lost money and world prestige. we were a seemingly hypocritical bastion of progress and the brighter future. that's not pleasant, but it was necessary.

however, it has been decided by both state and up to supreme court and is now gone. but i and everyone else in CA must now remain vigilant to avoid relapse. our failure in allowing wrong hurt, as it should, for we have hurt others in our failure.

contrition and penance precedes forgiveness. to do less is mere whining to get around justice.

[RebelOne]

115. I was born in Philadelphia, but grew up in Miami from the age of 6.

You would love Florida if you like big bugs, drug traffic (I did drugs for a while and had no problem finding sources), heat and humidity and hurricanes. I moved here to North Georgia and I was happy to be out of that hell hole.

[live love laugh]

120. It has to start somewhere. Unfortunately, the "face" and initiation of SYG is FL. nt

[Vincardog]

121. To borrow a phrase from the RW "It is time for FL to take some 'Personnel Responsibility'" Whey

you allow idiots to run your government, pass racist laws, and make people feel unsafe;
you need to deal with the consequences.

[aikoaiko]

123. Some people aren't good with ambiguities.

[LadyHawkAZ]

124. I have to admit, I don't understand all this state loyalty stuff

There's a surprising number of good solid progressives in Salt Lake City, but it doesn't bother me when people hate on Utah: I know which Utahns they're hating on, and it's not us progressives. Considering how stupid our state (R)s can be, I actually welcome the widespread mockery. Becoming a nationwide laughingstock has actually helped us a time or two.

So: I dunno. My advice from a liberal in a red state: let the criticism pile on, it may do your state some good in the long run.

[Doctor_J]

126. how would you suggest people express their displeasure with the

people of FL electing corrupt right wing government election after election?

[Beacool]

128. I agree with you.

Florida is my second home and I don't intend to boycott it over a verdict in a trial. I have loved ones in the state. They are all liberals, some of them are old enough to have actually fought for civil rights and women's rights in the 60s. I plan to be in So. Florida during the holidays, just as I do every year.