In FL there are Blacks who shoot Whites and use SYG and get off.

[GreenStormCloud]

The Tampa Bay Times http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/nonfatal-cases has been assembling the details of all shooting cases that involved SYG since the law was inacted. Some are fatalities, some are only woundings. The web site is interactive so you can set it to show whatever detail that you want to, including details of individual cases. Most shooting are between people of the same race. Setting the filter for black on white shootings, adding fatalities and woundings for total shootings we find:

Black on White - 4 convicted, 12 justified, 4 pending
White on Black - 3 convicted, 14 justified, 5 pending

Total of all SYG claims:
59 convicted, 143 justified, 35 pending

So SYG isn't used that often, is not a shoot anybody for free card, and is not for-Whites-only.

[Orrex]

1. I'm gratified to learn that anyone in Florida can shoot first

Equanimity!

[Peaceplace80]

2. Exactly

I feel much better now knowing SYG is being used by another race.

[rdharma]

3. Oh, I too feel better about the SYG law in FL now!

[GreenStormCloud]

4. Warning shots are illegal.

Where is that warning shot going. It could hit someone else.

If you have time to fire a warning shot, you aren't yet in the gravest extreme.

Also she left the scene, got her pistol, and returned. Since she had freedom of movement, and used it to return to the scene, then her life wan't in danger.

[Raine1967]

6. I heard this same explanation on a radio show.

I am truly hoping you aren't perpetuating a right wing meme I have been hearing for a couple days.

[rdharma]

11. I'm afraid he is!

[Lurks Often]

12. Here's a link

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57434757-504083/fla-woman-marissa-alexander-gets-20-years-for-warning-shot-did-she-stand-her-ground/

I encourage you to do further research and not always believe what you see here or other internet dicussion boards.

[rdharma]

14. SO ...... she had something against ceiling plaster, eh?

Why did she fire a warning shot...... when she should have killed her estrange husband?

[Lurks Often]

73. Thank you for being an example of a poster no one should believe.

Anything you say should be verified through at least two independent and reliable sources.

And since you never supply links to your comments and are unfamiliar with the concept of sources:

sourc·es

v.tr.
1. To specify the origin of (a communication); document: The report is thoroughly sourced.

[Hangingon]

78. Could not agree more

[rdharma]

81. LOL! The gungeron has called out their posse, eh?!!!!

Post the court records!

[GreenStormCloud]

85. She probably didn't want to go to jail for murder.

Since she was under bond, and violating a restraining order against her to stay away from him and the kids, killing him would have gone very bad on her. Likely it would have been a DP.

[rdharma]

88. Thank-you, our resident legal expert!

[GreenStormCloud]

118. Thank You.

Since I do carry concealed, I have made a serious study of self-defense law. I don't want to screw up.

[rdharma]

125. I missed it too. She confronted him a couple months AFTER the shooting incident.

She had no restraining order against her until AFTER the shooting. She blew her SYG defense by confronting this guy (unarmed) two months later. Doesn't look like she was very fearful of him.

[X_Digger]

17. No, he isn't.

She wasn't living in the home, she violated her bail when she parked her car in the garage and went inside, got into an argument with her separated husband, went back to the garage, got her gun, went back inside and shot 'warning shots'- that were also close to her children.

eta: A see a link was already posted above.

[leftyohiolib]

26. she wasnt supposed to go near them she was out on bond and was supposed to stay away from them

[rdharma]

91. Link to that info?

[GreenStormCloud]

99. Here is your link:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-marissa-alexander-20130717,0,4248003.story

They said Alexander could have left her home during the argument. Instead, she got her gun from the garage and fired a shot in the direction of Rico Gray, her husband, and his two boys, 9 and 13. The 911 call Gray placed after the shooting indicated he was fleeing and scared for his life. Alexander also reportedly sought out Gray at his “safe house” a few months after the shooting and instigated a fight that left him with a bloodied eye.

With three victims testifying against her, Alexander was convicted of aggravated assault. She was sentenced to 20 years in prison under Florida’s “10-20-Life” minimum sentencing law, which requires anyone who fires a gun during an aggravated assault to serve 20 years.

Notice that HE was in a "safe house", she sought him out, in addition to the shooting she hit him at another time, and even her kids testified against her. I think you should pick someone else as your poster-personl

[X_Digger]

100. From the link above:

First, according to court documents, Alexander violated her bail by returning to the home where the shooting incident took place several months later.

"A lot of people would say, if she's so afraid of him, what's she doing going back there?" says Stone.

Second, as the judge pointed out in the ruling that denied stand your ground immunity, presumably Alexander could have fled the home through the back door instead of returning to the house and confronting Gray.

"Obviously, the jury believed the state's position, that she went into garage to get the gun and make a stand, and that's not going to be tolerated," Stone says.

[rdharma]

106. This was AFTER THE SHOOTING!

[GreenStormCloud]

109. Irrelevant. Statute of limitations had not run. N/T

[rdharma]

122. Had nothing to do with statute of limitations.

Her intentional confrontation with her ex two months after the shooting destroyed her claim that she was fearful of this guy.

I'll admit. She's not a good poster child. But YOU'VE got to admit, if she hadn't been so stupid, she would have walked under the SYG law.

[GreenStormCloud]

132. I will research it better later.

I am answering a lot of counter posts now.

[leftyohiolib]

229. here's the link to that info (minus the rolling eyes smilie)

#at=21

again it the prosecutor explaining the reason for the charge - your next step is to attack the source which i cant help the source is what it is

[GreenStormCloud]

231. Wow. I have bookmarked that for the next time someone brings her up. N/T

[gejohnston]

237. She was also the Rick Scott special prosecutor

and he didn't chose her because of reputation for being ethical.

[leftyohiolib]

238. did you listen ro the interview?

[Mojo Electro]

137. It's a known fact about this case.

She went out to the garage, retrieved the pistol from the car that was in the garage, came back and fired a shot close to the guy's head. Also it was his house and, although they were married, she had not moved in yet.

Apparently he had been abusing her, and the scumbag absolutely deserved much more than a warning shot. But, she was sent up the river by manditory minimums regarding the use of a firearm during a the commission of a crime.

This case is vastly different from the Zimmerman case.... they have virtually nothing in common.

[Raine1967]

203. BULL SHIT. Go away.

I don't need your 77 posts to come in here and talk down me.

[delete_bush]

220. Of course, rather than a rational response you

berate the poster based on their number of posts. Quite the intellect!

[Mojo Electro]

235. Well that was well thought out.

Are all of your 3,000+ posts that clever?

Do you disagree with me regarding some specific fact about that case?

[leftyohiolib]

239. elitist snobery

[NoGOPZone]

218. re: nothing in common

we can use you whenever OJ's name is brought up

[Just Saying]

19. Do you get the fact that firing warning shots

Which yes might hit someone but in this case didn't, is punished far worse than actually shooting someone? In fact, under FL law it appears shooting to kill is legal but firing in the air is not.

And this case isn't anywhere near as simple as you're making it. This woman was in an abusive relationship and her children were there as well. She should have left the kids with a man who was threatening her life? Do you now how many abused women are murdered every year? Frankly, I think most gun people are overly paranoid but I'm all for abuse victims like her protecting herself with a gun. It's a nice turnabout and besides she didn't hurt anyone!

The gun laws in Florida (and several other states including mine) are beyond ridiculous.

[hack89]

24. Actually you hear support for such laws here from gun control advocates

what entangled her was a Florida law that severely punishes the use of a gun in the commission of a felony. There are many here that advocate severely punishing people the criminal or negligent use of firearms.

This actually an anti-gun law.

[GreenStormCloud]

31. See post 17 above.

SHE was under a restraining order to stay away from her ex and kids. SHE violated the order. SHE was the agressor.

The people who want to get you outraged over this always leave that out.

[rdharma]

93. Show us the link!

[npk]

98. Here is a story I found...

http://www.examiner.com/article/fla-mom-gets-20-years-jail-for-firing-warning-shots-against-abusive-husband

According to the story the woman who was sentenced to jail for firing the warning shots had a protective order in place and I couldn't find anything that stated that the courts had ordered her to stay away from her husband and children. As far as I can tell you appear to be correct.

[rdharma]

131. She didn't have any sort of restraining order against her at the time of the shooting.

But she chose to physically confront her ex a couple of months after the shooting .......blowing her claim of being fearful of him.

[Lee-Lee]

139. She had a restraining order against him

Those work both ways- if you take a restraining order out against me, then come to my location and initiate contact, you are the one in violation.

[rdharma]

146. She was on bond pending trial for the shooting incident a few months earlier.

And she chose to go seek guy out and physically confront this guy (unarmed).

Not a very bright move......

It completely blew her claim to be fearful of this guy (for SYG purposes).

She's not a good "poster child" for SYG laws....... but neither is Zimmerman ... and he walked!

[TheDebbieDee]

227. Maybe he used their children to lure/bait her into coming to the house........

Until something is decided by a judge, the parent that HAS physical possession of the children has custody. Abusive Dad's grab children to control the Mother - it happens all the time.

Did the Husband have physical custody of the children? If so, he may have used them to coerce her into visiting them, then turned into Mr. Hyde after she got there. Maybe he threatened to hurt the children if she didn't come back.

[GreenStormCloud]

232. See post #229. N/T

[TheDebbieDee]

236. I'm not going to listen to a 29:00 minute audio clip of an interview

with Angela Corey - I have a life and a job.

But 1) - the mere fact that Ms. Corey states that Ms. Alexander was prosecuted because she fired in their direction and COULD HAVE hit someone is all I need to know.

Ms. Alexander COULD HAVE shot somebody, but didn't! Ms. Alexander is in prison for 20 years (at $77,000 per year, totaling $1.5 million) because she COULD HAVE shot somebody is absolute bull$hit!

And 2) - these abusers usually become very adept at gaming law enforcement/the system and using it as a tool to further bludgeon/control or "Gaslight" their victim......

[mikeysnot]

111. So she should have hired

Zimmerman's lawyers? Z was the aggressor, he was stalking, he was told not to pursue and follow. he was told....

[GreenStormCloud]

114. There are other threads to discuss the Zimmerman case.

The circumstances in the two cases were vastly different.

[mikeysnot]

230. I just stated she should have hired

his lawyer... just saying.

[Drale]

79. So its perfectly legal to shoot and kill someone but

if you miss now its a crime? Right-wing bullshit

[GreenStormCloud]

92. The difference is in the intent.

If it is a miss, you just hope that the bullet doesn't hit someone. You fired when you were in the gravest extreme.

If it is a warning shot, you were not yet in the gavest extreme.

Remember that the person you are so outraged about was under a restraining order to stay away from her husband and kids. She violated that order, went to his residence, iniated the confrontation, and fired the shot. Are you sure you want to use her as your poster-person?

[Drale]

95. I disagree entirely

even in the "gravest extreme" the normal person will be unwilling to kill a fellow human being but will be more than willing to try and use a warning shot to scare away the aggressor.

[GreenStormCloud]

104. The law is not what you want it to be, but what it is.

If you fire the warning shot, it means that you are attempting to persuade the other person to stop. But a gun, even a warning shot, is a deadly weapon and when the shot is fired, deadly force has been used. Since you were still attempting to persuade them, then you ovbiously had time to see if they would accept your persuasion or not. Since you had such time, then you were not yet in the gravest extreme.

That is the way it works. What that means in practice is that unless you are completely out of options, keep your hand AWAY FROM THE GUN.

[X_Digger]

112. Great explanation.

I blame hollywood for this 'warning shot' bullshit.

[GreenStormCloud]

117. It is a paraphrase from one of Massad Ayoob's books. N/T

[LanternWaste]

103. Like following a neighbor's son home from 7-11

"You fired when you were in the gravest extreme..."

Like following a neighbor's son home from 7-11. That is grave and extreme...

[GreenStormCloud]

105. There are many other threads to discuss the Zimmerman case. N/T

[Electric Monk]

110. Bull-Fucking-Shit this thread of yours we're in right now isn't because of the Zimmerman case. nt

[GreenStormCloud]

115. I am discussing SYG statistics, not Zimmerman. N/T

[Marrah_G]

133. Question for you then

How many of those white people were teenagers walking home from the store with candy and an ice tea who were profiled as being a criminal simply because of the color of their skin?

[GreenStormCloud]

140. Each case is different. No two are identical. N/T

[Marrah_G]

169. So none?

Unless of course you think that young white men are considered criminals just for breathing.....because that is the reality of young black men.

[GreenStormCloud]

173. You are unlikely to find an exact parellel between any two cases.

Especially with only a few dozen cases.

[VanillaRhapsody]

134. into the ceiling of her garage?

[GreenStormCloud]

142. See post 99.

And she didn't shoot at the ceiling. She shot at him, in front of the kids, and missed. The bullet went throught the wall, and changed direction in the wall.

Another poster in this thread has put up pictures of the bullet holes in the wall.

[JimDandy]

180. I thought she went into their attached garage

with him close behind. There was only the one door and he was at it, so, trapped, she retrieved a gun from somewhere in the garage and gave a warning shot for him to back away from her.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[GreenStormCloud]

191. She went to the garage, got the gun, returned to the house, fired the shot. N/T

[JimDandy]

196. We're saying the same thing...

I just have a little more detail then that explains why (no other egress point from the garage, etc) she felt it necessary to fire the gun.

[leftyohiolib]

23. excpt the evidence doesnt show a warning shot. she fired at him and missd. the shot went thru the

wall behind him into a room where their 2 boys were causing them to run in fear (from the boys testimony) the bullet then ricocheted up into the ceiling. that's what the prosecutor said the evidence shows

[rdharma]

96. What evidence was that?

Link?

How do you get a bullet to ricochet off a wall and into the ceiling unless it is a very shallow angle of deflection?

[X_Digger]

108. Here are pics..

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5ZvjSyOihbg/T61VWdAOPmI/AAAAAAAAAME/SLkettbIgAQ/s1600/Marissa+Alexader+Bullet+Hole+in+Kitchen%281%29.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VuWHm8gX_YY/T61VW0n7sDI/AAAAAAAAAMM/AzZhVCo59Kk/s1600/Marissa+Alexander+Bullet+Hole+in+Living+Room.png

The bullet may have struck something inside the wall that changed it's direction of travel.

[leftyohiolib]

228. here's your linik

#at=21 - it's corey taling to a radio host days after the verdict - i know the line of attack will be attack the source but i cant help that this is where the info comes from

[Lee-Lee]

51. I wish people would do some research before repeating this crap

Folks who are putting her out there as some sort of victim are just showing their ignorance and willingness to jump on to any bandwagon that sounds good without understanding the facts of what they are supporting.

Look at the real facts.

She was on bail awaiting trial for domestic battery on her husband. She went to his home, where she didn't live- violation of the terms of her bail. She had a gun, in violation of the terms of her bail. She proceed to get into an argument with the man she was not legally supposed to have any contact with. She left the argument, got the gun she wasn't supposed to have, returned to the fight with him, and fired a "warning shot" at a wall that had children on the other side.

She then left the scene without ever reporting any of the incident to the police.

The story of that whole night is one of very stupid decisions and actions on her part. None of it is defensible.

And she was offered a plea agreement of 3 years and refused to take it, so when it only took a jury less only 12 minutes to find her guilty the case was so strong against her, then the states mandatory minimums meant to crack down on gun crime mandated her long sentence.

Is she really the cause you want to back? because it makes you look pretty foolish when you do.

[davidn3600]

62. She was also given a plea deal for 3 years prison time and turned it down

Which was stupid because she knew she violated the letter of the law. A jury was going to find her guilty. It only took the jury 12 minutes to do it.

Had she taken that deal, she would be a free woman today.

[Lee-Lee]

64. Yep

Seems like the last stage of appeal is now a social media campaign hoping people won't pay attention to teh facts and create misplaced outrage.

[rdharma]

97. Link?

Provide a link......not something you heard on your favorite RW talk show!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

128. It probably didn't help her cause much after her attorney said she fired a warning shot into the

ceiling, the actual evidence showed that the point of impact of the bullet

"struck to the right of an archway between the kitchen and living room, where Gray (her husband) and his two young sons were."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/09/marissa-alexander-prosecutor_n_1504428.html

For some reason, her husband, the police, the prosecutor, and the jury seemed to think that she had shot at him.

It probably also didn't help her cause much that,

“A few months after Alexander was released on bail on orders to have no contact with Gray, she got into an altercation with him at his home that gave him a black eye, Corey said. Alexander was charged with battery.

“Instead of her trying to work toward a resolution, about four months into this thing, claiming to be so afraid of this man, she went barging to his house and attacked him,” Corey said. “So it didn’t show much of her being remorseful of what happened and being a peaceful person.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/09/marissa-alexander-prosecutor_n_1504428.html

She fired a "warning shot?" Unfortunately, that's another good story ruined by the facts.

[bowens43]

5. so basically its legal for anyone to murder anyone in florida......wow

[GreenStormCloud]

25. You may notice that there are a lot of convictions.

That list is of people who tried to claim SYG. There are thousand more murders and manslaughters that were not SYG related. 7,370 according to the FBI. http://www.bjs.gov/ucrdata/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm So murder is very illegal, but self-defense isn't.

[uppityperson]

7. One might think in non-fatal cases like these are, there might be 2 witnesses, not just 1

[William769]

8. I'll be the first one to recommend this.

I have had my name dragged through the mud so much in the past 24 hours and called so many things, I would not want to deprive anyone still foaming at the mouth that privilege.

[HiPointDem]

9. oh bull.

Using the same data base for fatal “Stand Your Ground” law cases provided by the Tampa Bay Times, one must conclude that Mr. Howley is either very inept at processing data or that he is intentionally misleading his readers to advance his own ideological agenda.

His analysis fails to recognize that the most significant and relevant data instead points to the conclusion not that blacks benefit from the “Stand Your Ground” law as he states, but rather those who kill blacks benefit from the law as it is applied in Florida.

The Tampa Bay Times analysis of 133 fatal cases where the accused attempted to use the “Stand Your Ground” as a justification for homicide shows that 20 cases are still pending. For the 113 cases that are no longer pending, in 73 cases the accused was considered justified under “Stand Your Ground”, and in 40 cases he or she was convicted for the killing.


When the victim is white, the person who kills him or her is convicted 43 percent of the time.

When the victim is black, the killer is only convicted 22 percent of the time.

The killers of Hispanic victims are also convicted just 22 percent of the time.

Although blacks who kill other blacks are found justified under “Stand Your Ground” 73 percent of the time, whites who kill blacks are deemed to be justified in killing the black person 86 percent of the time.

When the victim is black and killed by a white or a Hispanic (like Zimmerman) the murder is considered justified 90 percent of the time in the state of Florida.

By contrast, when the victim is white and killed by a non-white (black or Hispanic) person, the murder is considered justified just 60 percent of the time.

In other words, when a black person is shot and killed in a “Stand Your Ground” case, the chances that his or her killer will be convicted of a crime is around 1 in 5.

If the accused is not black, his chances of being convicted drop to 1 in 10.

By contrast, a person who kills a white person and tries to invoke “Stand Your Ground” has a 43 percent chance of being convicted and sent to prison.

Black killers stand a reasonable chance of getting away with murder as long as they confine their killing to murdering other African-Americans. Whites can successfully use “Stand Your Ground” as a defense nearly nine times out of ten as long as they shoot black people, but they are rolling the dice and gambling with prison time if they stand their ground against another white person.

Blacks do not benefit from Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Law, but it is pretty obvious that since the law was passed in 2005, those who kill blacks do.

http://www.politicususa.com/2013/07/22/kill-blacks-benefit-floridas-stand-ground-law.html

[gollygee]

15. Thank you.

I'm tired of pro-Zimmerman racist RW memes showing up here.

[GreenStormCloud]

20. How is the OP pro-Zimmerman? It says nothing at all about Z, TM, or the trial.

I posted the absolute numbers with the source of those numbers. The numbers for white on black and for black on white are very similar.

[gollygee]

30. You're being coy

There has been a great deal of talk about SYG here and it's all been since the Zimmerman verdict.

[GreenStormCloud]

35. I take it that you don't like the facts. N/T

[Electric Monk]

39. Yes, they certainly seem to have a vested interest in not understanding. Because, guns....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023319813

[GreenStormCloud]

42. Another person who can't discuss the numbers has been heard from. N/T

[Electric Monk]

48. The numbers have been addressed, Uncle Jimbo. See reply #9.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2013/07/17/every-black-boy-is-coming-right-for-you/

(snip)

In the first season of the Comedy Central show, the children are taken on a hunting trip by one boy’s Uncle Jimbo, and Jimbo’s friend Ned. On seeing a Rocky Mountain black bear, Jimbo prompts the boys to look at the animal which is one of the last remaining of its kind. ”Dear God!” he screams, “It’s coming right for us!” Then he shoots the bear. The nephew protests, “Hey! It wasn’t ‘coming right for us!’ It was just sitting there.”

Jimbo launches into a tirade about how the laws make it such that only in cases of imminent danger can animals be shot. He explains to his nephew and the other boys that screaming as though genuinely threatened, “Is just a technicality.”

In a country with a long history of humor being used as both political weapon and salve for injustice, this cartoon, first aired when Trayvon Martin was probably still teething and just beginning to toddle, is sadly appropriate to this conversation.

The power of humor and satire to disarm can be a tremendous thing. Particularly here, as people are trying to make sense of the Zimmerman verdict, which has divided Americans since it was delivered. And while it is clear that there is nothing remotely funny about the fact that a young boy was shot dead and his shooter was found not guilty, the laws that permit such a happening are so egregious as to be laughable.

[GreenStormCloud]

58. See post 27, below. It shows the errors of post 17.

Percentages drawn from small numbers are misleading. This OP is not about the Zimmerman trial. There have been lots of threads on that already.

[hay rick]

16. Thanks for blowing this OP out of the water.

Wonder what qualifies as a "stand your ground" case. Zimmerman did not opt for a SYG pretrial immunity hearing so the classification must be based on the SYG component of the jury instructions on self-defense. If pretrial hearing cases are included with non-hearing cases, we're talking apples and oranges.

[GreenStormCloud]

18. You are using a very small statistical sample.

When you have only one or two examples, a change of one can make a huge difference in the percentages. That is why I used absolute numbers. Notice that the absolute numbers are very close to each other.

[HiPointDem]

59. it's the *same* sample as in the OP. and it's not a 'sample,' it's the entire universe of syg cases

in florida.

[GreenStormCloud]

61. Percentages calculated on small numbers are misleading.

That is why I used absolute numbers. To illustrate the problem, let's say you got one day off last year. This year you got two days off. You had a 100% increase in time off, but in real terms it wasn't much. You are doing the same thing with the SYG percentages. That is one reason I used the absolute numbers.

[HiPointDem]

65. not any more 'misleading' than absolute numbers where there are a 'small number of cases'.

[GreenStormCloud]

69. Absolute numbers give the entire picture.

You used precentages to distort the picture.

[HiPointDem]

72. no; the percentages and absolute numbers give the *same* fucking picture. duh.

[RetroLounge]

149. You can't argue facts with this one...

RL

[hack89]

27. Here is the problem with that analysis

Murder is primarily an intra-racial phenomena - whites kill whites, blacks kill blacks.

In Florida to date there have been 61 white on white SYG cases. There have been 11 white on black, 10 black on white and 26 black on black cases.

The results:

For white on white: 32 justified, 25 convicted, 4 pending

For white on black: 6 justified, 1 convicted, 4 pending

For black on white: 4 justified, 2 convicted, 4 pending

For black on black: 16 justified, 6 convicted, 4 pending

You are talking about one more conviction in a sample size of 3 in the interracial shootings - 2 v 1. If you want to hang your hat on that small sample size and yell racism then knock yourself out

[HiPointDem]

70. no more problematic than using the absolute numbers.

[hack89]

75. The difference is a single shooting. One.

now if that is makes SYG blatantly racist then you are beyond reason.

[HiPointDem]

94. the difference is not just 'one,' because the difference is not just about the small # of b/w or

w/b cases, but about the entire picture of convictions for w/w & b/b.

& i personally have little doubt that more cases will reinforce those differences.

[hack89]

101. I just showed you that whites have a higher conviction rates than blacks

for w/w and b/b shootings.

[hay rick]

166. Nonsense.

The sample size would not be the number of people convicted of interracial killings, it would be the number of victims- which is 13, not 3.

But let's expand the sample size to include all the adjudicated SYG killings. If there is no racial component to the judicial outcomes, there should be no racial pattern to the deviation from the average of all adjudicated cases. 58 of the 92 cases resulted in exoneration- a bit over 63%.

White kills white: 32 justified killings vs. 35.9 projected justifiable killings.
White kills black: 6 justified killings vs. 4.4 projected justifiable killings.
Black kills white: 4 justified killings vs. 3.8 projected justifiable killings.
Black kills black: 16 justified killings vs. 13.9 projected justifiable killings.

The most pronounced pattern is prejudice against black victims- 22 justified killings vs. expected 18.3.

Feel free to continue to ignore racial prejudice as an element in determining the outcomes fashioned by our judicial system. I suspect no sample size will persuade you otherwise.

[GreenStormCloud]

172. My concern is with the racial component in cross-racial shootings.

With same race shootings other confounding factors would come into play that would be different from cross-racial ones. Those factors would influence the judicial system.

[hay rick]

182. By "concern" you don't mean actual concern.

You assert that same-race shootings have "confounding factors" that would influence the judicial system differently- but you aren't willing to agree that cross-race shootings have their own set of factors that "influence the judicial system." I get it.

[GreenStormCloud]

193. The numbers are close to even each way.

Black on White - 4 convicted, 12 justified, 4 pending
White on Black - 3 convicted, 14 justified, 5 pending

That is sufficient to prove my point. Black people ARE able to use SYG after shooting a White person.

[hack89]

181. And yet black shooters are favored over white shooters.

you would think racist juries would convict black.shooters regardless of the victim. Yet whites are convicted at a higher rate than blacks.

My take away is that SYG favors the shooter regardless of race.

[hay rick]

185. SYG definitely favors the shooter.

The disparate effect of SYG on black victims is probably a function of our justice system generally (lack of effective representation and jury bias, for example) rather than something built into the law. SYG amplifies the existing bias by turning a disproportionate number of blacks into victims of "justifiable homicide."

[hack89]

188. That same system disproportionately exonerates black men.

the jury is judging the accused not the victim. It is a black man they are looking at, in the flesh, throughout the trial. And in Florida they convict those men at a lower rate than they would whites.

[hay rick]

223. If the victim is black, whites have a much better chance of being exonerated.

Your figures: White kills black: 6 justified, 1 convicted. Black kills black: 16 justified, 6 convicted.

When the victim is black, white shooters are exonerated by a 6:1 ratio. When a black shoots a black, the shooter's chances of exoneration fall to 2.7:1. The fact that black shooter's victims are overwhelmingly black accounts for their overall lower conviction rate.

[leftyohiolib]

28. i heard the %age as 35% of white on black syg goes free compared to 3% blk on why syg

35% - 3%

[GreenStormCloud]

33. Percentages calculated on small numbers are misleading.

Lets say you only got one day off last year. This year you get two days off. Your days off were doubled, but it real terms it wasn't much.

[leftyohiolib]

37. excpt you dont know how they came to these number and neither do i i heard this on the randi rhodes

show she was reading it to her audience

[GreenStormCloud]

40. I gave you the link.

They have list ALL of the SYG cases in Fl since the law was passed in 2005. Check out the link. I think you may find it interesting. Not only does it give the numbers, but also details of each SYG case.

http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/fatal-cases

[leftyohiolib]

43. thanks .... nt

[HiPointDem]

60. yes, i do. the op used the same tampa bay times sample. the op cherry picks it. and it's

actually not a 'sample,' it's the entire universe of syg cases in florida.

[GreenStormCloud]

68. Since it is the ENTIRE UNIVERSE of SYG, then I didn't cherry pick.

I used "sample" to mean "the set of numbers being analyzed". Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I used both B/W & W/B numbers. I didn't use the W/W OR B/B numbers as those were same race shootings and were not the subject I wished to explore. I wanted to show, and did show, that blacks shoot whites about as often as whites shoot black and have about the same success using SYG/self-defense as a defense.

[HiPointDem]

90. you took only b/w & w/b. which as you yourself acknowledge is a handful of cases.

[GreenStormCloud]

107. Because I am pointing out that the number are very similar for cross-racial shootings.

W/W & B/B are same race shootings and have no impact on cross-racial shooting statistics.

[leftyohiolib]

76. oh hipoint , i was replying to green point's post and i was refering to the 35% to 3% numbers from

my post

[uppityperson]

116. Thank you for ADDRESSING THE NUMBERS

Sorry for the yell but

[GreenStormCloud]

120. He didn't address the numbers, he used percentages to distort them.

When the absolute numbers are small, percentages can be extremely misleading. Suppose you got only one day off last year. This year you got two days off. You had a 100% increase in your days off, but in real terms it wasn't a great difference.

[uppityperson]

183. Uh huh. Annoys you when someone else does it?

[countingbluecars]

10. Gun nuts make me sick. nt

[Chan790]

13. Relevance?

It doesn't make SYG a good law...and it doesn't make me any less strident to see massive permanent curbs on gun ownership.

[GreenStormCloud]

47. Many here have claimed that SYG can't be used by blacks.

The data shows that it can, almost as often as whites successfully use it.

[Chan790]

80. oh I was already aware of its use by people of non-white ethnicities.

I still oppose the law and think "duty to retreat" should be the law everywhere.

[7962]

259. Man, you're fighting a losing battle here

You're either going to be a gun nut, a racist, or both. No matter WHAT numbers you put up.
But you've put up a fight, I'll give you that!

[Starry Messenger]

21. Also from the Tampa Bay Times:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133

<snip>

• Those who invoke "stand your ground" to avoid prosecution have been extremely successful. Nearly 70 percent have gone free.

• Defendants claiming "stand your ground" are more likely to prevail if the victim is black. Seventy-three percent of those who killed a black person faced no penalty compared to 59 percent of those who killed a white.

• The number of cases is increasing, largely because defense attorneys are using "stand your ground" in ways state legislators never envisioned. The defense has been invoked in dozens of cases with minor or no injuries. It has also been used by a self-described "vampire" in Pinellas County, a Miami man arrested with a single marijuana cigarette, a Fort Myers homeowner who shot a bear and a West Palm Beach jogger who beat a Jack Russell terrier.

• People often go free under "stand your ground" in cases that seem to make a mockery of what lawmakers intended. One man killed two unarmed people and walked out of jail. Another shot a man as he lay on the ground. Others went free after shooting their victims in the back. In nearly a third of the cases the Times analyzed, defendants initiated the fight, shot an unarmed person or pursued their victim — and still went free.

<snip>

[gollygee]

29. It's legal murder

Just say you were scared.

[GreenStormCloud]

36. They why were so many convicted?

Saying you were scared isn't enough. You still have to meet the criteria for self-defense.

[gollygee]

41. Which is to be scared

and not leave any witnesses who can speak against that.

[GreenStormCloud]

45. Nope. You can't shoot all the witnesses either. That won't fly.

No matter how much you say it, SYG is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. If it were, there would not have been thousands of murder convictions in FL since 2005.

[gollygee]

46. It is a get out of jail free card

depending on the circumstances.

[GreenStormCloud]

52. So there are criteria that have to be met.

But if you have to meet valid criteria, then it isn't a blanket go-free card is it?

SYG still has to meet the legal standards of self-defense. To be in reasonable fear of your life or great bodily harm the person you defend against has to have motive, means, opportunity, and an immediate demonstration of intent to do you such harm, before you can use deadly force defense. The demonstration is important. He has to actually DO something that would make a reasonable person have such fear.

[gollygee]

53. It is a get out of jail card if there are no witnesses

or if the witnesses are dead. You say you were afraid. "I thought he had a gun." If the jury is white and the victim is black, and you can draw into the "black brute" stereotype even though, say, the victim was a skinny teenage kid, it is even more so.

It's very hard to prove a negative. Prove someone wasn't scared, beyond a reasonable doubt, when there are no witnesses. It's pretty close to impossible, and if you can convince the jury the person was scary, which is easy with black men and young men in our society, then yeah it's a get out of jail free card.

[Lee-Lee]

57. Lots of murders get convicted with no eyewitness

Modern forensics can make some amazing cases.

Had the forensics showed that the shot that killed Trayvon was fired when Trayvon was standing straight up, or on his back, or from a greater distance Zimmerman would likely be in jail right now, as an example.

[gollygee]

63. Well that's the thing about making up stories

they work better when you don't deviate too far from reality. On the other hand, Martin's body was way away from the sidewalk, and Zimmerman's head wound was superficial, but his story about having his head pounded repeatedly into the sidewalk worked anyway.

[davidn3600]

49. The law says you have to REASONABLY fear for loss of life or serious bodily injury

Just saying you are scared isn't enough. The reason for the fear must be reasonable.

[gollygee]

50. Anyone can come up with a story where it sounds reasonable to be afraid

"I thought he had a gun"

or

"He was armed with the sidewalk"

[davidn3600]

54. Yes and that is what many people claim when they commit a murder

It's up to police, prosecutors, judges, and juries to decide what is "reasonable."

You can't strictly define this in law because there is an infinite number of scenarios that can occur in real life.

Unless you want to ban self-defense altogether.

[GreenStormCloud]

55. Notice that there are a lot of convictions.

So obviously it takes more than a story.

[gollygee]

56. There were probably witnesses in those cases

or the victims couldn't be rebranded as thugs as easily as black teenagers can be.

[GreenStormCloud]

89. That is speculation.

Notice that the numbers are very close to the same for B/W as it is for W/B. Check out the link, case of Carey (26, black) killing Santiago (17, white). Santiago is being branded as a burglar. However, evidence at the scene suggests that Santiago was in the act of breaking in to Carey's home. No witness. Case is still pending.

[pkdu]

206. Straight out of Jimcrow era arguments .....

No racism here....move along.... Look in the mirror my friend.

[blm]

22. That's where the DEFENSE was SYG. SYG language is used in jury instructions even when defense

doesn't formally plead SYG.

Which is EXACTLY what happened in Zimmerman case.

[BainsBane]

190. Excellent point

which will be completely ignored.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

32. anything to justify your sickness

[GreenStormCloud]

34. So you have no argument against the numbers. N/T

[Pretzel_Warrior]

38. I didn't even analyze the numbers. It is a stupid premise. the thing I care about?

More killings by gun in stand your ground states than there were previously.

SYG laws = more death and violence. It entitles people to err on the side of "BANG! BANG!" instead of caution. I don't care what color of skin the perpetrator or victim has.

[LanternWaste]

44. I'd do my best to rationalize a crap law and deflect the attention to that too...

I'd do my best to rationalize a crap law and deflect the attention to that too... were I less than honest with myself.

[Robb]

66. Confirmation Bias Man says: "Remember, kids, posts like this aren't race-baiting!"

[gollygee]

67. ROFL

[GreenStormCloud]

71. Another poster who can't discuss the numbers has been heard from. N/T

[Robb]

82. Do you need to have it explained to you?

Perhaps you should go ask your black friend about it. We'll wait.

[Skittles]

156. actually, those folk DO need it explained

but they will never, EVER understand - their fear and ignorance TRUMPS ALL

[GreenStormCloud]

164. The numbers speak for themselves. N/T

[Marrah_G]

74. Today you are not a dingbat :)

[Trajan]

77. LittleGreenFootballs

Rings a bell ...

[rdharma]

84. Did you say "Little Green Footballs"? Is that the source of their info?

Errr merrr gerrrd!

These clowns have exposed themselves!

[GreenStormCloud]

86. I gave the link.

Tampa Bay Times http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/nonfatal-cases

You're making up lies.

[surrealAmerican]

83. Were any of these fatalities?

With or without eyewitnesses?

[GreenStormCloud]

87. The link has details of each event.

Many were fatalities. http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/nonfatal-cases

[upaloopa]

102. So if someone should shoot you using SYG your family

shouldn't worry or care because it isn't used that much.

[GreenStormCloud]

113. Depends upon if it was a valid SYG.

If I was attacking someone, and they legitimately feared for their life or great bodily harm, then they can use SYG after they killed me.

My point is that many posters have claimed that blacks can't use SYG, that it is a whites-only law. The numbers that I posted show that blacks kill whites and use SYG successfully at about the same numerical rate as whites kill blacks and use SYG successfully. Both blacks and whites are able to defend themselves away from home.

[upaloopa]

240. You could be doing nothing and be killed using SYG

That's what is wrong with it. Dead men tell no tales.

[HockeyMom]

119. REPEAL SYG

Then it won't matter who the hell is using it.

[GreenStormCloud]

121. Why shouldn't people be able to defend themselves? N/T

[BainsBane]

123. In American there are whites who kill blacks who get the death peanlty

That doesn't mean the death penalty isn't racist or SYG isn't racist. You know that's the case. Don't pretend otherwise. You know it is invoked 11 to 1 by whites who kill blacks and that the Office for Civil Rights has opened an investigation.

[GreenStormCloud]

136. I am discussing FL SYG statistics, not the DP. N/T

The DP would be a different topic. Feel free to start a thread about it. I would have to research the statistics. Except in the most extreme cases I am not in favor of the DP.

[BainsBane]

141. The application of both is the same

as is their purpose: killing black men. Both accomplish the same thing.

[GreenStormCloud]

144. And whites get killed too.

Black on White - 4 convicted, 12 justified, 4 pending
White on Black - 3 convicted, 14 justified, 5 pending

Those are the all the cross-racial killing for the past 8 years in FL in which SYG has been claimed. The numbers are fairly close to each other.

It isn't just blacks that get killed with SYG.

[BainsBane]

147. 11 to 1 is the ratio

What is the period for those numbers? Why have you chosen such a narrow time frame? Why do you refuse to look at all the cases of SYG?

You might fool yourself, but everyone else here sees exactly what is going on.

[GreenStormCloud]

150. I AM looking at ALL FL cases of SYG.

FL only passed SYG in 2005, so it has only been in effect there for eight years. Can't go back further because SYG in FL wasn't state law then.

Here are the numbers for ALL cross-racial SYG cases in FL.
Black on White - 4 convicted, 12 justified, 4 pending
White on Black - 3 convicted, 14 justified, 5 pending

Obviously you don't like the facts.

[BainsBane]

154. 235 cases

You don't deal with the majority of them.

You haven't even read your own fucking article.

[GreenStormCloud]

157. My interest is in cross-racial SYG shootings.

I have included ALL cross-racial SYG shootings. Every one that the link has.
Black on White - 4 convicted, 12 justified, 4 pending
White on Black - 3 convicted, 14 justified, 5 pending

All the others are W/W or B/B shootings. You have claimed, many times, that a black person can't shoot a white and use successfully use an SYG defense. The numbers above show that 12 times a black person has shot a white person and used SYG defense successfully. That is very close to the number of times that whites have shot blacks and used SYG successfully.

[BainsBane]

145. What you are doing is denying facts

to justify a law that allows killing when the killer could safely retreat, essentially to kill human beings for sport. As a Florida man recently said, "I only shot a n---" http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023322630

You hero got away with murder. How may more must die before you and ALEC, the NRA, and the Koch brothers who advanced the SYG laws are satisfied? All those black teenagers walking home from the store with candy. Someone has to do something about that menace.

Yeah, we get the point.

[GreenStormCloud]

148. I have posted facts. You just don't like them.

Black on White - 4 convicted, 12 justified, 4 pending
White on Black - 3 convicted, 14 justified, 5 pending
Eight years of SYG claims in FL.

Zimmerman has nothing to do with this thread, except that he & TM are one of the events at the link.

[BainsBane]

152. I posted facts

you didn't read them. That article says very little. You haven't even presented all of the cases. There are more than 173. What about the rest? What about all the other states that have SYG? What about the other Tampa Bay times article that shows the law allows those with a history of violence to get away with murder?

[etherealtruth]

124. I think my computer has a virus

I keep being re-directed to right wing sites masquerading as DU

[babylonsister]

129. Amazing, isn't it. Argh! nt

[etherealtruth]

130. I need to quit reading here tonight.

I am astounded (yet again)

[babylonsister]

135. I try not to

take anything too seriously. On DU, this too shall pass, sooner rather than later.

[NoGOPZone]

219. sad but true nt

[JustAnotherGen]

126. I totally read the title of this thread wrong

[ananda]

127. Gawd this is insane!

SYG is a bad law, period, regardless of racial issues.

AND racial issues need to be dealt with as well.

[BainsBane]

138. SYG is racist

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/07/14/stand-your-ground-increases-racial-bias/
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/nra-alec-stand-your-ground
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/11/stand-your-ground-task-force-rick-scott-trayvon

There is no justification for the law other than bloodlust. Self defense law before SYG enabled anyone to defend his or her own life. Retreat is only required when safe to do so. SYG makes it so that people can shoot first even when they have a clear and safe exit. It's a way for people who enjoy killing to do it and get off. It's an evil law supported by racists and killers. Killers belong in jail. They are a menace to society, as are those who justify their actions. Killing when an other alternative exists is evil.

Even The Tampa Bay times shows the law is used to let people with violent histories go unpunished. http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/many-killers-who-go-free-with-florida-stand-your-ground-law-have-history/1241378
Hardly a surprise. We all know the point of this law is to allow those who enjoy killing to get away with it as long as they use a gun.

SYG are right wing laws pushed on the American public by the Right-Wing trifecta of death: ALEC, the NRA, and the Koch brothers. Naturally the right loves the law. They created it.

[countingbluecars]

151. If she wishes not to be bothered

by someone justifying racism that's fine by me.

[GreenStormCloud]

155. Has nothing to do with SYG.

There are other threads to discuss Zimmerman or this person's blog complaints.

[rdharma]

158. And jury instructions?

[GreenStormCloud]

159. I posted results. N/T

[rdharma]

186. Can you give the post #?

This topic is moving very fast can't keep up with each and every post. TIA!

[GreenStormCloud]

194. I am only looking at results, not jury instructions.

Black on White - 4 convicted, 12 justified, 4 pending
White on Black - 3 convicted, 14 justified, 5 pending

[rdharma]

199. I was talking about the Zimmerman trial jury instructions. nt

[GreenStormCloud]

201. I don't want to derail this thread by discussion of Z.

There have been lots of threads on him in the last few weeks.

[rdharma]

215. It's all about SYG....... no?

Zim must be included!

[99Forever]

153. Wrongo.

Raw numbers only tell part of the story.

The real "change" is what Shoot Your Victim laws have done to jury instruction in so-called "self defense" cases.

Get back to me when you understand what that is and what it means.


(Here' a hint, think legalized vigilante murder.)

[GreenStormCloud]

162. My interest is in cross-racial SYG shootings.

Black on White - 4 convicted, 12 justified, 4 pending
White on Black - 3 convicted, 14 justified, 5 pending

That data shows that Blacks & Whites successfully use SYG as a defense in shooting each other( B/W & W/B) with close to equal frequency. Many here have claimed that Blacks can't use SYG after shooting a White. The numbers prove them wrong.

In this thread I am not concerned with W/W or B/B shootings.

In the same time period in FL there have been thousands of murders.

[99Forever]

165. Your "data" is incomplete.

Shoot Your Victim has changed ALL "self defense" cases in Floriduh., not just those that use Shoot Your Victim as the primary defense. IOW, your premise is flawed, hence, you "conclusions" are nonsense.

[GreenStormCloud]

168. Take that up with the Tampa Times.

They list ALL cases that involved SYG.

[99Forever]

175. Well shit...

... if the "Tampa Times" says it, it really is written in stone, huh? Sorry to have bothered to question The Exalted Keeper of All Facts and Indisputable Truths, "The Tampa Times."

[BainsBane]

160. Evidence on SYG that gunnners willfully ignore

because it doesn't justify killing. I wonder at what point in American society being pro-2A turned into justifying murder? It seems a recent development to me, but perhaps I'm simply naive.

http://blog.metrotrends.org/2012/08/stand-ground-laws-worsen-racial-disparities/



http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/07/14/stand-your-ground-increases-racial-bias/

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/jul/13/study-stand-your-ground-laws-dont-deter-crime-to/

National Bureau of Economic Reseach: SYG results in significant increase in justifiable homicides (after all, the point of the laws are to get away with murder) http://www.nber.org/papers/w18187.pdf?new_window=1

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/11/stand-your-ground-task-force-rick-scott-trayvon



http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/11/stand-your-ground-task-force-rick-scott-trayvon

[GreenStormCloud]

167. An increase in justifiable homicides is not a bad thing.

And it is to be expected. When you have millions of people who are carrying concealed weapons, that weren't able to before, and have the legal ability to defend themselves, then some violent criminals are going to suffer from a severe failure of their victim selection progam. Such failure will often lead to the criminals ceasing to be a criminal, or anything else for that matter. IOW - Some criminals are going to assault armed victims and get killed over it.

Don't expect me to cry any tears about dead violent criminals.

[Electric Monk]

170. "Some of them folks just needs a killin." Wow, is your world view ever fucked up.

How about finding ways to reduce the incidences of crime in general, like doing something about the poverty levels? Or is that too "soshulist" for you?

[GreenStormCloud]

178. If you think that violent criminals are only doing it for money then you are naive.

Violent criminals do it for the excitement and the feeling of power that they get from completely dominating their victim. The money is secondary. They ENJOY it. Offering them a good job will not change that. If a violent criminal gets offed by his intended victim, I am not crying.

I can recommend some good books on Criminal Psychology. Yes, old-fashioned books, not web pages.

[kwassa]

224. I think your world view is seriously screwed up.

There is no explaining paranoid fantasies.

[countingbluecars]

171. What about dead innocent teenagers?

Do you cry tears for them? Attitudes such as yours is why we need stricter gun laws.

[GreenStormCloud]

177. Legal concealed carry saves more innocent lives than it takes.

Legal concealed carry saves more innocent lives than it takes.

In Texas the detailed statistics are compiled annually by the Department of Public Safety and published on the internet. It is likely that the Texas experience with Concealed Handgun Licenses would be about the same in other states. The last year for which statistics are published is 2011 for convictions. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/index.htm

In 2011 there were 512,625 people who had CHLs. Out of those people there were exactly three (3) murder convictions and three (3) manslaughter convictions. Out of the general population there were 578 convictions for murder in its various forms.

So very, very few CHL holders go bad, but some do.

The DPS also publishes an annual Crime in Texas Report. http://www.dps.texas.gov/crimereports/10/citCh3.pdf
From that report, page 15:

Statistics on murder circumstances, victims, and
victim/offender relationships on the next page
include justifiable homicides. Justifiable homicide
is the killing of a felon by a peace officer in the
line of duty or the killing (during the commission
of a felony) of a felon by a private citizen. In
2010, there were 98 justifiable homicides, of
which, 50 were felons killed by private citizens,
and 48 were felons killed by police.

In Texas all homicides, even those that are clearly self-defense, have to go before a grand jury which will rule if the killing was justified or not. So those 50 justified private citizen homicides were ones in which the defender genuinely and legitimately feared for his life. Since most shootings are merely woundings there would be a much larger number of justified woundings in which the defender genuinely feared for his life, but that number is not kept. Obviously there are dozens of cases each year in which a CHL holder uses their gun to save themselves, members of their family, or others.

Dozens of innocent lives saved versus six innocents killed shows the concealed carry is working in Texas. As already stated, there is no reason to believe that other CCW states have a different experience.

Legal concealed carry saves innocent lives.

[countingbluecars]

179. NRA and Texas bullshit

[GreenStormCloud]

197. So you can't dispute the numbers, you throw insults.

The data comes from the Texas Department of Public Safety.

[kwassa]

222. what a joke! Execution capital of the US! Texas has no credibility.

Citing anything from Texas is a losing game.

[DevonRex]

161. "Florida's Stand Your Ground Defense More Likely To Succeed If Victim Is Black: Study"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/06/stand-your-ground-defense-study_n_1575686.html

A newspaper report has found that the Stand Your Ground self-defense statute in Florida is more likely to succeed when the victim is black.

The Tampa Bay Times looked at 200 cases and found that in instances in which the victim was black, the person who invoked the defense went free 73 percent of the time. If the victim was white, the person walked free 59 percent of the time. The report also found that more than two thirds of all the people who invoked the law were acquitted, and that the defense is being invoked in more and more cases.

"People often go free under 'stand your ground' in cases that seem to make a mockery of what lawmakers intended," wrote the Times reporters. "One man killed two unarmed people and walked out of jail. Another shot a man as he lay on the ground. Others went free after shooting their victims in the back. In nearly a third of the cases the Times analyzed, defendants initiated the fight, shot an unarmed person or pursued their victim — and still went free."

[Kingofalldems]

163. Oops.

Facts are stupid things.

[DevonRex]

174. There's actually a better article on it, too. the stats are even worse

when all cases are considered. I just can't find it right now. But yeah, oops. Facts can bite people in the ass especially when they cherry pick like this OP article did.

[Kingofalldems]

176. I watched a trial today on Tru TV

A black man in Florida charged with manslaughter in a SYG claim. He shot a white guy who had jumped him. You can guess the verdict.

[DevonRex]

184. Of course.

That's how it goes. Something has to change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Corey#Ronald_Thompson_case

Check out the State Attorney on the Trayvon Martin case. Look at the case on Marissa Alexander. It's similar to another in the list, Ronald Thompson. Except that everybody got all upset about Thompson's sentence (rightly so) and after a lot of effort he's getting a new trial. So should Ms. Alexander. But what are the odds? Barry Scheck talked about it on MSNBC the other night. So I'm gonna see if the Innocence Project or somebody is working on it. Donate some time and money.

[GreenStormCloud]

189. Can you remember more details.

The link I posted has ALL cases of SYG in FL. If you can remember the name of either to victim or the shooter it will be listed, or the date of the event. Relative ages would help if you can't remember the other things. Were there witnesses? I would be very interested in bringing up the details.

Was it Trevor Dooley (black, 69) killed David James (White, 41)? Sept. 26, 2010 Manslaughter, Guilty. There were multiple witnesses to that one. Dooley pulled the gun first, James tried to disarm him, gun went off in the struggle.

That is the only one that ended in a manslaughter charge. With multiple witnesses I have a hard time blaming racism for the verdict.

[Kingofalldems]

198. He showed the gun in the holster and then walked away.

The guy who he showed the gun went after him and jumped him. He was at fault but Zimmy boy was much more at fault than Dooley. The gun went off in a struggle vs. your boy actually willfully shooting a child. Oh and the jury took all of 2 hours for the guilty verdict.

[GreenStormCloud]

200. Witnesses claim he drew the gun first.

Drawing is a lot different than exposing the gun. BTW - Deliberately exposing a concealed gun is a crime - brandishing. There were several witnesses. I don't want to derail the thread by a discussion of Z. There have been lots of thread on that in the past four weeks.

James screwed up too. According to the article I read, Dooley, after exposing the gun started to walk away, James yelled at him, Dooley turned and drew the gun, James tried to disarm him. James should not have yelled at him as he was starting to walk away. The angry armed man was leaving, James should have let him leave and called 911.

[Kingofalldems]

205. Uh I watched the trial this morning

Did you see it? Don't think so. So you just make up shit.

[GreenStormCloud]

214. Here is the Tampa Bay link.

http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_34

Trevor Dooley, 69, had his handgun tucked into his waistband when he walked to a basketball court across from his home to shoo away a skateboarder. David James, 41, was playing basketball nearby with his daughter. James began arguing with Dooley, telling him to leave the skateboarder alone. Dooley turned to walk away but James yelled after him, asking him about the gun sticking out of his pants. Dooley turned back and pulled out his gun. James then lunged at Dooley in an apparent effort to disarm him. They struggled, falling to the ground, and the gun fired, striking James in the chest. When the police arrived, Dooley was waiting in the park for them.

I don't need to make stuff up.

[Kingofalldems]

216. He pulled the gun from the holster

according to testimony but did not get a chance to point it. He was then jumped by the victim, a fight ensued and the gun went off. Dooley was guilty for sure but Zimmy was even more guilty. Again, you did not watch the trial.

[GreenStormCloud]

225. In this thread, Dooley is all I am going to talk about.

If we start talking about Z the thread will get way to long. It is already over 200 posts.

[c588415]

187. why 20yrs for marissa alexander?

A Tampa Bay Times analysis shows that people who claimed self-defense after killing a black victim were more likely to go free than those who killed a white victim......a quote from the link you posted

In Florida, Marissa Alexander, a black single mother, was given 20 yrs for firing a warning shot over her abusive husband's head. It appears that Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't apply to all. Too bad Marissa's daddy wasn't a retired judge.

[davidn3600]

192. We debated this in depth above

See reply #51
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3323412

[c588415]

204. post a link on your source of info concerning M A

I'm not disputing your claim about Marissa, nevertheless, she fired a warning shot, and nobody died. By comparison, Zimmerman was found innocent of the killing of an unarmed teen. Still, I wonder the outcome of the Zimmerman /Martin trial if Trayvon were white and Zimmerman were black? If so, I would imagine that Zimmerman would already be someone's bitch in prison. Personally, I don't think Zimmerman would have lasted a day in prison. I would imagine that all of the prison inmates would have taken turns riding Zimmy around the prison yard all day long, ultimately wearing his seat out. It pays to have a retired judge as your daddy.

[GreenStormCloud]

208. Multiple links were posted in the discussion up thread.

Z's father was never a judge. http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/zimmerman-dad-worked-as-magistrate

[c588415]

244. What about Zimmerman's criminal record?

George Zimmerman's criminal past is a lot worse than Marissa Alexander's. He was arrested on 3 separate occasions. But due to his daddy's ( retired judge) influence, all 3 cases were closed/sealed. Zimmerman was charged with domestic violence, assaulting a police officer, and resisting arrest. With that said, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion regarding M Alexander's predicament. Still, her criminal past is nowhere near as troubling as Zimmerman's. To serve a 20 year prison sentence for firing a warning shot is way too excessive. Marissa should be pardoned.

[GreenStormCloud]

245. It wasn't a warning shot. She was shooting at him and missed.

See post #29.

[c588415]

247. It was a warning shot according to all of the links I have researched via GOOGLE

I have GOOGLED numerous links pertaining to the Marissa Alexander case. And I have yet to find a link supporting your claim about her case. Her abusive husband admitted to threatening her life before she fired the warning shot. There was also a restraining order on him, and he once put Marissa in the hospital. Again, she didn't kill anyone, unlike Zimmerman.

[GreenStormCloud]

248. See posts 229, 99, 108, 128.

Each of those also has a link to their information. The shot was in the direction of her kids, as well as him. So shooting in the direction of children is OK in your book?

[c588415]

249. Marissa was in a abusive relationship

She had every right defend herself. Even Marissa's abusive husband said that she didn't aim the gun at him. Florida's "stand your ground" law is a little ambiguous, especially when Zimmerman walks free after he murdered an unarmed teen. Then Alexander gets 20 years for firing a warning shot.

http://thegrio.com/2012/04/24/marissa-alexander-angela-coreys-other-stand-your-ground-case/

[GreenStormCloud]

254. See posts 229, 99, 108 & 128.

Each of those has an authoratative link.

She left the house, went to her car, grabbed her gun, returned and fired in the direction of her husband and her kids. Bullet went into and through the wall, deflected into the ceiling as it came out of the wall. So firing in the direction of her kids is OK in your book?

Leaving and returning is not standing your ground, because she had already left.

Even her kids testified against her at the trial.

Z did not claim SYG at the trial, but traditional self-defense.

[GreenStormCloud]

202. Z's father was never a judge.

That is a DU myth that won't die. Some years ago Virginia changed their Justice of the Peace system, replacing that position with the title Magistrate. The duties only changed a little. Z's father was a Virginia Magistrate, which in other states would be a Justice of the Peace.

[Kingofalldems]

207. Is there a Z fan club somewhere?

You should join.

[uppityperson]

210. Uh huh. Annoys you when someone else does it?

[Kingofalldems]

211. Never posted that.

On the other hand I don't post obsessively on a guy who beat the rap. Your boy won, when will you let it go?

[GreenStormCloud]

212. You are right. You didn't post that. c588415 did.

Sorry for the error. I corrected c588415 because I am tired of hearing that his daddy was a judge, when he wasn't. In this thread I am mostly avoiding discussion of Z.

[Kingofalldems]

213. So of course because of one poster, you had to start a thread about it.

I'm not allowed to say what that is.

[Rex]

251. Actually, this is funny, he is saying two wrongs make a right in his book!

Hoping we will now say that Zimmerman must have been color blind by association of these useless statistics!

Oppssie...little bit of that culture bias sneaking in...some people just can't hide it.

[NoGOPZone]

217. there seems to be one right here on DU nt

[davidpdx]

226. Maybe we could request a forum

so he could have a room by himself to cock his gun.

[Rex]

252. Careful, you will get accosted by someone swearing

they are NOT a fan...but felt compelled to answer your question anyway.

[On the Road]

195. In Matters of Stereotype and Emotion,

research is always valuable. The numbers are always what you expect.

[ileus]

221. Excellent info...SYG like the 2A is for everyone.

Safety and Security know no color.

[GeorgeGist]

233. Reading is fundamental.

• Defendants claiming "stand your ground" are more likely to prevail if the victim is black. Seventy-three percent of those who killed a black person faced no penalty compared to 59 percent of those who killed a white.http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133

[GreenStormCloud]

234. Blacks are mostly shot by other blacks.

So you have a situation where both shooter and dead person are black, then a black person is going to suffer. Either the shooter goes to jail, in which you have a black person convicted, or the black shooter gets off in which case you have a dead black person whose killer got off.

That's why I used cross-racial shootings in my OP. The numbers are close to even.

[lame54]

241. Zimmerman wasn't justified - those other 143 are suspect

[GreenStormCloud]

257. That is how the law has ruled. You don't get to overturn those rulings.

The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that those who claim that SYG is for Whites only are wrong. Blacks use SYG to get off too.

[lame54]

258. My point is to dump the law - black white green or plaid - it's bad

[Generic Other]

242. Is it just me or did the line-up of SYG faces look pretty sketchy?

The law seems to have created havoc in the crack head and oxycontin community.

[totodeinhere]

243. This stat has nothing to do with the Trayvon Martin murder.

It's an interesting stat but SYG was not cited in the Zimmerman trial. And I continue to maintain that SYG laws need to be repealed.

[GreenStormCloud]

246. It isn't supposed to. I am discussing cross-racial SYG shootings. N/T

[Rex]

250. So two wrongs equal a right in your book.

More Zimmerman nonsense.

[GreenStormCloud]

255. This thread isn't about Z. It is about over 200 SYG shootings. N/T

[Ed Suspicious]

253. How 'bout this... get some fucking pepper spray or mace if you need to buy some time for a retreat

Why are we celebrating the ability to kill each other regardless of race?

[GreenStormCloud]

256. There are big problems with relying on pepper spray as an only defense.

It isn't 100% effective. There are some people whom it doesn't effect.
It is dependent upon the wind. If your attacker is upwind of you then the spray blows back on you.
It can only be used at very close range. If it doesn't work you don't get to find out about it until your attacker us on you.
Some cities and state outlaw or severely restrict sprays. They seem to think that citizens should not defend themselves but be good victims.

However, carrying pepper spray, readily available, is a good idea as long as it isn't your only defense.

The purpose of this thread is proving that those who claim SYG is for Whites only are wrong.