AMTRAK: Completely nationalize, rebuild and then give to the workers

[Taverner]

Amtrak should be completely revamped with bullet trains, subsidized fares and extensive routes

The only way this could happen would be to take over Amtrak completely, rebuild it with bullet trains - - and then instead of selling it to the highest bidder, simply turn it over to those who already run it (the workers)

Make them all owners of the railway

[wercal]

1. You do understand that AMTRAK utilizes the rails owned by other railroads, right?

[Taverner]

2. Yep. Buy or pull eminent domain on them.

Then again, I have so little respect for corporations it is not even funny

[villager]

3. These would be the private "rights of way" originally secured from public lands, yes?

And by massacring Native Americans, etc.?

[wercal]

11. What the hell does that matter

The OP is a fantasy about 'rebuilding' a railroad that doesn't exist...I'm just pointing it out.

[villager]

15. Well, if it doesn't matter, I guess you can stop being in high dudgeon

no need to point out anything at all, really, except that since you did, I was simply pointing out that all those "private" rights of way were originally "public" in the first place.

[wercal]

20. Look the op has no idea what he is talking about

Wants to rebuild Amtrak and let the workers own the railroad...when there is no railroad. Amtrak runs on freight lines all over this country.

I point it out.

You rant on the circumstances by which the row was taken.

When did I advocate for the railroad? Why did you appoint me as the defender of hundred year old policies. I guess if I speak at all about the railroad, I am required to be subjected to your ire? Good grief.

[villager]

23. I "rant?" Bit of a projection, yes?

Along with the "ire," since you're the one spewing charges, swearing, et al.

But... enjoy yourself, nonetheless!

[wercal]

25. So we both agree - your opinion on the acquisition on ROW

Is completely irrelevant to my post; and, it should never had been directed at me.

[villager]

29. And now, in typical "my anger comes before anything else" internet posting fashion...

...you start to lapse into incoherence.

in a thread that by your own account, doesn't even matter, because it's just a fantasy

[wercal]

50. Really....am I the incoherent one?

Assignment: Explain how your response to my post was in any way relevant to my post.

Quit deflecting, and explain it.

[villager]

66. You're one of those professional argument seekers.

But -- enjoy!

[wercal]

67. Lets see?

You pick an argument with me making an incoherent reply to my post...

And I'm the professional argument seeker.

Gotcha.

[villager]

68. well, you were picking an argument with the OP, if we're going to remember it accurately

I was simply pointing out the provenance of "private" "rights of way."

All a matter of peeling away the onion skins, eh?

[wercal]

69. Got it

I inform the OP about who owns the tracks, since he doesn't know (without being argumentative)

You percieve me to be an instant arguer...because that's logical...

And post something about Indian massacres, which pigeon holes me as defending such acts.

And I'm not allowed to push back one bit.

Lets try the exact same scattershot methodology:

You mention onions.....ONIONS you say? The same onions that Vincent Kosuga fixed prices on in the '50's? That's what I thought!

Now that statement is no more disjointed than your reply to my post. And according to your rules, you aren't allowed to question it, or ask me to describe what you have to do with it.

I'm in favor of Indian massacres...and you're in favor of bribing people to corner the onion market.

[villager]

70. You're a real words-in-mouth guy, which may explain the constant anger. But I never thought you were

...in favor of Indian massacres.

Hopefully you don't mind onions in a sandwich, though.

More to the point, I was simply saying the current condition of RR companies "owning" "private" tracks all came about because public lands were seized.

Given time, a worsening environment (and attendent imploded economy), etc., all this can be changed again, not that it would be easy.

That's what I was after.

And hey -- pass those onions!

[HiPointDem]

30. +1

[srican69]

17. you do understand that this is basically a giveaway to freight lines ..

Amtrak has to pay maintenance for those tracks - while the freight trains have priority over usage...

Republicans have totally tied the hands of the entity that can transform America

[wercal]

21. So what

I'm just pointing out that the op has no idea how Amtrak works...and suddenly I'm appointed as defender of the railroad?

[HiPointDem]

32. looks like you're the person who doesn't know how the rail system works, since you don't

understand that from day 1, railways existed because of government subsidizing them, giving preferential treatment to favored private actors, & nationalizing them or bailing those same actors out when their criminal vampirism threatened to destroy the system.

[wercal]

49. Well why don't you show me where I said ANYTHING contrary to your post

I merely informed the OP that his fantasy of 'rebuilding' Amtrak and letting the line be 'worker owned' had a very major flaw - for the most part, Amtrak doesn't own its own lines.

Why does that one statement suddenly make me the spokesman for the railroads?

[HiPointDem]

52. 'private ownership' is not the insurmountable obstacle or 'flaw' you claim, nor does the OP's

vision equate to 'not understanding' the current situation.

[wercal]

57. I used to tell this to my kids:

"Just because you say something, it doesn't make it true."

If you could explain to me how on earth it would benefit Amtrak in any way to 'rebuild' half the class I rail lines in this country, go ahead and let me in on the secret.

If you can't, this is pure fantasy nonsense.

[HiPointDem]

60. i have no interest in explaining anything to you, it would be a siphysian task.

[wercal]

62. Ok...confirming that 'Just because you say something, it doesn't make it true'

BTW, its sisyphean.....not siphysian.

Whenever I try to impress people with multisyllabic words, I run spell check.

[HiPointDem]

64. i wasn't trying to impress you, & i never use spellcheck. i use the word that fits. if i'd been

trying to impress you i would have checked the spelling, duh.

and i think we all know that just because someone says something that doesn't make it true. goes for me, you, & politicians equally.

not sure what you'd have to note such a commonplace.

[KamaAina]

59. Amtrak owns the tracks along the Northeast Corridor

we could expand that to include other high-traffic routes as well.

[wercal]

65. They own the NE routes because they have the ridership to justify the maintenance costs

Most of their routes are not 'high traffic', with less than a half dozen trains a day. Amtrak is much better off using the freight lines in most of the wide open expanses of the country.

Amtrak is currently trying to compete in two markets:

1. Cross country travel
2. Rapid transit between major urban centers

The latter is a candidate for their own ownership of lines. However, since it is heavily subsidized by the entire nation, they are obligate to serve the former...probably at a huge loss. Trying to rebuild and own these lines would only exascerbate their financial problems.

And quite frankly, looking at how some of the high speed rail proposals in CA and IL are structured, these would be municipally run, like an airport or port authority...and as far as I can tell, not be part of the Amtrak system...rather competing with Amtrak for its most lucrative business.

Amtrak does a terrible job advertising. They should also forge stronger partnerships with car rental companies...so you have more freedom of movement once you get to their destination. They should also expand their wifi availability, and really advertise it...it might take longer than driving, but you can take a laptop and be productive the whole time, etc. And simple things like security...or at least better lighting, at the terminal....in order for it to work, people have to feel comfortable leaving their car there for a few days. And they have to cater to business travelors more in general. I just checked my local station.

1. Its in a bad part of town, and the only possibility of long term parking is an expensive garage - so you've got to get dropped off.

2. No lounge

3. No payphone

4. No quik-trak kiosk

5. No wifi

[MicaelS]

4. Where you going to get the track from?

Amtrak runs over tracks owned by private RR companies.

I worked as a Freight Brakeman / Conductor for 17 years. The RRs back then did NOT want passenger trains on their tracks. AFAIK, they still don't. The only reason they tolerate Amtrak is because the US Government gives them so much money to allow trackage rights. Frankly, we freight crews hated Amtrak back then. Because oft times we had to wait for Amtrak, and that delayed us getting over the road, and either getting home, or getting to the terminal at the other end of the road, and getting our rest. The one who really hated Amtrak were Maintenance of Way people who could only come out, work for a few hours, then stop, and clear Amtrak one direction, then repeat the process for Amtrak the other direction.

In the US we have High-Speed passenger rail traffic in the only places the population density is high enough, which is the Northeast Corridor with multiple main lines, and the West Coast.

If we want widespread High-Speed passenger rail in this country, then we will have to spend the money to build dedicated High-Speed passenger only rails lines and all that entails. That means no rail crossing at grade. No chances of any car / truck and train ever colliding. Ever. Bridges / overpasses everywhere train and surface roads meet. How much will that cost to build per mile? I have seen estimates from $20 million a mile to $2 billion a mile. And that is just the track, no rolling stock.

The legal bullshit would be monumental. Everyone would have both hands out thinking they won the Lottery because the government was going to buy their land for rails lines. Politicians would fight tooth and nail to have the train come thought their city or town. There would be the NIMBYs who would try to stop they whole thing because of the noise, or it ruined their quality of life or their view, or some other excuse, just like they do with wind energy. Then the environmentalists would get into the act claiming animals would be driven to extinction or the local ecology would be irreparably damaged, or some other excuse.

We can't even build wind turbines to help us become energy self sufficient without someone whining and crying about THEIR view being spoiled, or birds being slaughtered, or the desert ecology being destroyed, or someone suffering from some nervous complaints because of noise and vibration from wind turbines, or some other excuse, and you think we're going to get widespread High Speed Passenger rail in this country?

[Brickbat]

7. Good answer.

Thanks for taking the time to lay it out.

[MicaelS]

10. Thanks. n/t

[HiPointDem]

34. "tracks owned by private RR companies" built on land they got for free from the gov't, with

gov't subsidies at various points to build a/o maintain them.

funny that much more densely populated countries can have high speed rail but we supposedly can't because of 'nimbys' (which are often fronts for bigger capital). but somehow the gov't a/o private actors *can* seize private land for things big capital wants.

[MindPilot]

48. High-speed rail on the west coast? Where?!

Thank you very much for your been-there-done-that perspective from the inside, but I have to ask what drugs were you taking when you hallucinated the west coast high-speed passenger rail service, and will you share? I would like to also experience the illusion of high-speed rail.

Last year I rode the Coast Starlight from San Diego to Portland and back, three days each way, (most of the time the cars on the parallel road were passing the train) and unpleasant enough that this seasoned rail passenger never wants to do it again.

And if you want to go east from California? Fly.

[elleng]

53. Nope, won't happen.

Thanks for setting the record straight.

[dtotire]

5. Nationalize Amtrak

This the way it is done in Europe. They aren't there to make a profit--they are there to do a service. This is the way it should be.

[brooklynite]

16. Actually, most European countries are now allowing private operators to compete with the national RR

...or are contracting out operations to private carriers.

[HiPointDem]

35. yes, with a little push from the forces of neoliberalism, primarily the US & UK. doesn't negate

the fact that publicly owned railways ran efficiently, effectively and safely for eons.

[Brickbat]

6. People really don't have any idea when it comes to trackage, trackage rights, "bullet trains" and

other rail issues. It's just not that easy.

[Taverner]

8. We gave them the rails with the Homestead Act, we can take them back

[Brickbat]

9. Um....no.

[csziggy]

22. A lot of the RR right of way has been converted to recreational trails

At least here in Florida - one of the things Florida has done right, IMO.

Actually, it's a national movement: http://www.railstotrails.org/index.html but here in Florida, it has provided a lot of hiking, biking and horse riding trails in many places where that would not have been otherwise possible.

I would love to have better rail transportation. Right now I am in a position where I cannot drive long distances (carpal tunnel problems make it hard to hold the wheel) and my husband cannot drive at all for at least the next month.

I have a trip planned (from Tallahassee, FL to Louisville, KY) in October, and this morning was checking out ways to get to my destination other than driving. Flying would take LONGER than driving the 600 miles and would require changing planes once at a minimum and more likely four times (and would cost six times as much as the gas to drive). The time required does not take into account the time needed to clear TSA, either, so add a substantial amount of time to that, too.

I could take a Red Line bus from Tallahassee to Jacksonville, the train from Jax to DC, then from DC to Indianapolis, then have to take Greyhound from Indianapolis to Louisville - which would take about the same amount of time as it would to drive and LESS time than flying, but the leg from DC to Indianapolis is already sold out (?!) and they don't do any checked baggage.

If my husband can't drive by October, I will have to cancel my trip since none of the alternatives are practical or affordable.

[FarCenter]

54. The tracks required for high speed rail and freight trains are different

Freight trains require very low grade due to heavy weight and limited power, but they can tolerate fairly tight curves due to slow speed.

Bullet trains have a higher power to weight ratio so can climb and descend steeper grades, but they require very wide curves due to the high speed. This means that you can't actually route bullet trains on the existing rail right-of-ways, nor can you route them down the medians of interstates in most places.

[NuclearDem]

12. I thought Amtrak was already a completely nationalized industry?

Not trying to be a pain in the ass, I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I thought Amtrak was born from a Nixon bailout of the private passenger rail companies?

[JVS]

18. Amtrack is a nationalized passenger rail service.

It exists because most railroads no longer wanted to offer passenger rail. Freight pays the bills and doesn't involve so much customer service.

Something that often gets overlooked is that US railroads handle a higher % of cargo compared to Europe, which makes us greener in that regard. Repurposing them to passenger service might be counterproductive.

http://business.time.com/2012/07/09/us-freight-railroads/

[Boom Sound 416]

13. Tracks aside, what is private about Amtrak now?

Just asking, don't know

I know it's runs about 11 billion in the red year. That's a pretty substantial subsidy

[HiPointDem]

36. Go home.

[Boom Sound 416]

47. One way?

[elleng]

55. Nothing.

[brooklynite]

14. UNREC

You're welcome to have an opinion on the labor structure of Amtrak (I would be inclined to disagree on a number of points, but that's another discussion), but to throw out "completely revamped with bullet trains" is focusing on a solution looking for a problem.

Setting aside the immense expense of building completely new rights of way to support high speed rail, and the difficulty of obtaining the property needed for it (BTW - are you aware that Amtrak only extends from Washington to Boston: the rest of its operation is under contract to private railroads?), and the increadibly long lead time (Amtrak thinks upgrading the NEC to 250 MPH service would take 30 years), the value of HSR is limited by distance and its success is limited by density. For any trip of more than 6 hours, even a high speed train won't compete with air travel. Add to that, HSR is successful when you eliminate intermediate stops to maintain speed; how many small towns would lose their service in support of high speed trains between major cities.

The target markets today are within 400 miles of each other (LA-San Francisco; Dallas-Houston). A nationwide network would be hugely expensive and of limited value.

[Taverner]

40. Start with the local areas, then move it national

Seriously - the skies cannot accommodate more travelers, neither can our highways - and with populations rising and all...

[KamaAina]

61. Within that 400-mile distance

are a lot of routes ending in Chicago (Detroit, St. Louis, Twin Cities etc.) That's a good chunk of your nationwide network right there.

[MicaelS]

19. If we're going to play fantasy wishing games...

Which is what you're doing, I would much rather start work on Vactrains.

[PowerToThePeople]

24. USA: Completely nationalize, rebuild and then give to the citizens.

n/t

[NoOneMan]

26. Thats all fine and dandy, but how we going to do all that production....

without further killing the planet? Honest question. Thats a lot of steel and energy required

[Taverner]

27. Solar power most of it

Build the panels first, then the infrastructure

[NoOneMan]

28. We're going to put solar panels on the bulldozers we need to mine the ore?

How are we going to get the ore to make the solar powered bulldozers?

That's an interesting amount of torque required for an electric tractor

It sure it take a monumental effort to first completely transition the country to renewables PRIOR to this Amtrak redux. What energy are we going to use to power the transition?

Did you know we needed to actually stop emitting emissions yesterday?

Its fine. Im sure we will produce our way our of our over production problem

[PowerToThePeople]

31. Probably a lot of steel in Detroit's decaying infrastructure could be recycled.

[Taverner]

38. This is true

[oldhippie]

45. And we can use all the rotted wood and abandoned homes in Detroit ....

... as biomass to heat the furnaces for the steel recycling! I think there is Koch Bros oil sludge there also. Detroit could become a great city again pushing the re-birth of the railroads. And the workers in Detroit can run the whole thing. Win - Win!

[Taverner]

41. Relax - one vehicle at a time

And it's not as if these things run on coal

[NoOneMan]

43. Thatll....take some time

No, they run on diesel currently. But coal is used in the manufacturing of steel.

I think your idea is great in an infinite world BTW. This one is just sort of dying so Im not gung ho about throwing up more emissions just so everyone feels happy about having enough income to buy cheap shit made in China from massive pollution in order to make their hearts feel fluffier.

We suffer an emotional deficit more than an economic one. That is the foundation of most human problems.

[oldhippie]

33. And we can finance the entire project ....

... by selling bonds to the Aliens at Area 51, and then stiffing them!

[NoOneMan]

39. I was going to say we could finance it on hope

Maybe we can sell our CO2 to the aliens

[oldhippie]

42. That's even a better idea!

We can sell the Aliens the excess CO2 in the atmosphere for an exorbitant fee. They can scoop it up in their atmospheric gas snarfing ships and take it back to their home planet. That's a twofer! We solve the global GHG problem AND fund the railroad rebuild!

[HiPointDem]

37. it's quite amazing how many 'democrats' hate a pretty basic idea like national rail.

[leftstreet]

44. ...add pretty much all public transportation n/t

[HiPointDem]

46. funny democrats

[FarCenter]

56. There are no numbers in the OP to indicate that the proposal is even close to economic

Some democrats can do addition and subtraction.

[HiPointDem]

58. maybe it's not, but that's not the drift of the naysayers. i think it's a bit blue-sky, but i

don't have such high standards for internet posts as you apparently do, requiring 'numbers' for any off-the-cuff proposal.

i suppport the general principle. it seems pretty clear that lots of the democrats posting here don't.

[WovenGems]

51. Employee owned, great idea n/t

[sgtbenobo]

63. When my mom asks me what I learned today I'm going to tell her....

.... that after scrutinizing this post I have found that even here on DU it's clear that our situation is doomed. America doesn't know how to rally to any situation that might make us better, happier, or dare I say it proud. So, let's kill all the dreamers. They are dead wood. The real function of America is to be a lesson in antithesis to the rest of the world. We should just give up.


When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. To seek treasure where there is only trash. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!

Cervantes



Carry on.... and die.

[Bunnahabhain]

71. All we need now is

Rearden metal and Dagny to make it all happen!

(This was a joke relating to the fictional nature of the idea, given how closely it mirrors a certain book by She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, not a comment on ideology!)

[Taverner]

72. Ahhhh but this would make the makers takers and vice versa

Anarcho Syndicalism like the FAI in Spain