General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHas Anyone Else On DU Noticed This Lately?
I'm not a super-long member of DU. I've visited DU almost daily for five years or so. When I was laid up during the elections ("Do Not Move That Yourself!" said a very stern husband.... I wish I had listened to him!) I spent day after day just typing away on DU like a junkie.
So, you know, I'm not an expert, but I have a pretty good idea of what modern DU has to offer.
So, this is what I've noticed:
At any given time, this morning for example, 1/4-1/3 of the front page of the GD section is actually an ANTI Democrat story. Seriously, look through it. Anti Weiner, snowden, angry at Obama, Angry at Clinton, Anger anger anger. And it has been going on for months and months now. One anti-Democratic blow up after another. IRS, NSA...all of these situations where a little bit of homework, a little bit of sleuthing, a little bit of investigating, fall apart. I know FOX news turns those (already known or total lie) leaks into front page news and their minions scream and holler and grab up their pitchforks and demand blood on a daily basis.
See, that's how the Right Wing works, scream and demand blood before anybody has a chance to think. And never, ever, stop the assault. The negative headline must always be the top headline.
And why suddenly is DU following this same pattern? Why is DU screaming for the blood of OUR elected Democrats every time FOX News has a new lie or twisted story to tell? What has changed in DU that has made 1/4 or 1/2 or on a real red-hot FOX news day, 2/3 of our headlines look pretty danged similar to what the Right Wing is screaming. And when the lies are showed to be lies, suddenly it is just off to the next anti-Democratic story.
I've seen some long time DUers (or, at least names I've seen around for a while) that I have never noticed very much before, suddenly having story after story that are nothing but anti Obama, anti hillary, anti dem....not calling for the end of the Democrats, but systematically chipping away at the dems that lead our party. Chipping away, trying to drive a wedge between us. Tarnishing the Democrats.
So it just seems I see more of this. Things like blanket anti-Dem statements that pass juries and members with 20,000 posts who suddenly sound an awful lot like a troll. Suddenly it is OK to call Hillary Clinton a witch and worse and that is accepted as being part of a group of supportive democrats discussing issues that effect our lives.
I just feel it has changed a bit in DU lately. We're always mad at our leaders, of course, because they are politicians working the middle and it pisses us off. That, of course, will never change. But lately I see more simple anti-Dem stuff and it makes me think I smell some deeply entrenched trolls who are trying to drive us apart or who want to at least change the atmosphere so it isn't so nice a place to be.
Anyone else been noticing this? Don't believe me? Then look through the first couple pages of OPs.... some of those headlines look like they could have been lifted from the conservative cave.
Of course, maybe it has always been this way. But, if you were a new member stumbling upon DU for the first time, it sure wouldn't be the oasis of free thought and Democratic power that it was when I stumbled upon it. I would not feel the brotherhood and love that brought me sanity during the elections.
I don't think I'd see unified Democrats that kept the Senate and put Obama into power and then returned him there.
And that worries me because that is the first page of the Right Wing plan and it echoes the playbook of Fox News.
Divide them. Make them Angry. Make them despair. And while they are distracted, steal the election.
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geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and 5% "pro."
Leith
(7,864 posts)but let's keep it balanced.
For example: Anthony Weiner. I'm disappointed in what he has done, but he was one of my favorite pundits on the opinion shows on MSNBC. Everything he said resonated deeply with me. But I just can't let his poor behavior overshadow the good that he used to do. What he did is between him and his wife - even if it calls his judgment and impulse control into serious question enough to forget ever getting elected again. Instead of joining the scream machine against him, I will just remember the good he did while in Congress.
I won't give the RWNJ lurkers the satisfaction of repeating their hate.
dmr
(28,705 posts)I loved Weiner on the House floor, and when interviewed as a member of Congress, but never, ever saw him as a pundit.
What'd I miss?
emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)Refuting Repug talking points during healthcare debate.
MADem
(135,425 posts)brush
(61,033 posts)Seems just for the sake of being against, or anti, like all the pro-zimmerman crowd.
Who would've thunk it that you'd see such vociferous cheerleaders for a killer on a progressive site.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
tclambert
(11,187 posts)brush
(61,033 posts)As I was saying . . .
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)nt
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Even when they're Democrats. And, who better to hold them accountable than fellow Democrats?
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)and I think there is huge disappointment after much expectation that we were going to have a Dem leader that would lead to the left. It is what most of us voted for.
I am old enough to remember when the focus was for a great society instead of just a great profit year for the 1%. I have no problem with people venting their disappointment here. One can only regroup and try for better after admitting that things are fked up and brainstorming ways to turn it around. There are too many people here that are fine with any travesty as long as the person committing it has a D after their name.
dusty trails
(174 posts)...I think there is huge disappointment after much expectation that we were going to have a Dem leader that would lead to the left.
I want a Democratic President as ballsy as old LBJ.
I'm afraid the 8 years of Obama (for whom I voted twice) will go down in history as "milk toast".
A wasted opportunity.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Just like Barack Obama has been, just like Hillary would be...
Hekate
(100,133 posts)... How many kids did you kill today?"
There would have been a continuing bloodbath at DU, just like the one at the Chicago Convention, only worse, if anything.
It took forever to arrive at any sort of recognition of the good LBJ did, and he did plenty of good.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Johnson's Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965 were praised at the time.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 26, 2013, 01:35 AM - Edit history (1)
However as a college student myself at the time I recall how opposition to the war, justifiable as it was, overlaid and almost erased everything else about the man.
I opposed the war. I worked hard for Eugene McCarthy. Then Bobby Kennedy was assassinated while my friends and I were still absorbing the news that we had lost the primary election in California. Then the Democratic Party just ripped itself to shreds one way and another and we got Richard Fucking Nixon. Maybe it was the assassination of yet another Kennedy. Maybe the stars were against us. Maybe a lot of things.
Anyway I may have been using shorthand speech in my other post, but sorry if I was not clear enough.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)
Historic NY
(39,878 posts)people don't seem to know really much about him and his operations, his policies and his actual politics. They think they know him and try to make comparisons to the present POTUS.
pmorlan1
(2,096 posts)LBJ was eviscerated while he was in office. LOL Why do you think he didn't run for re-election?
CincyDem
(7,360 posts)Ballsy is a great work for what's lacking. It is painful to watch the opportunities squandered in the name of "collaboration". What about doing things in the name of moving forward.
The issue is that it's much easier to created a coalition committed to what the past was than to create agreement about what the future could be. Still - I would like to see Mr. O stop moving backwards.
And to be clear (I feel like I have to say this any time I don't kiss the ring), I was voting for Hizzoner Mayor Daley in the 70's and have never voted for a republicant in my life. I'm not going to start anytime soon but man, this is breaking my heart.
dusty trails
(174 posts)Squandered hope and promise.
Doremus
(7,273 posts)Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)Anymore, I'm convinced that (D) stands for deceiver. With a few exceptions, of course.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)not that anyone is surprised. But the rote/regurgitated and inevitable hurrahs are part of the package deal recognized in the OP. Hey, thanks for the confirmation and examples.
Hissyspit
(45,790 posts)and is one of the great original Duers.
And you reduce him to the "contrarian bandwagon."
Ridiculous.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)you can jump on and off that same bandwagon anytime you want. Your ridiculous assertion that I cannot critisize someone for the way they respond (and leaving them to critisize all they want), is in and of itself ridiculous.
greatauntoftriplets
(178,773 posts)and I get criticized for my opinions. Guess I don't rate. 
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)
AAO
(3,300 posts) Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)look up "contrary" and gel a clue bud.
AAO
(3,300 posts)I stand by what I said.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)AAO
(3,300 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Scuba
(53,475 posts)Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #2)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)
tsuki
(11,994 posts)
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Hekate
(100,133 posts)
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)with the relationship between lovers.
As if there was ANY similarity.
There is not. In any way.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)The idea that we shouldn't criticize Dems who don't make the grade is silly.
We Liberals generally give people the benefit of the doubt. So when someone lets us down, they have REALLY let us down. And they deserve to know it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And there are a couple ways of doing that:
1) Finding candidates that you believe will, more closely, represent your political views ... and working to get them elected;
2) Failing to find that mythical creature ... throw YOUR hat into the ring and work to get yourself elected;
3) Post your daily grievance onto an anonymous internet message board.
Which ones do your think represents holding elected officials accountable?
840high
(17,196 posts)
Javaman
(65,484 posts)GreedIsGood
(20 posts)AllINeedIsCoffee
(772 posts)
DonRedwood
(4,359 posts)
Number23
(24,544 posts)as the sunrise. And about a fifth as interesting.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)That's news to me.
Dawgs
(14,755 posts) Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)
Poster thought about being sneaky, eh?
Edit: Ironically while decrying Fox for using the same tactics!!!
Hydra
(14,459 posts)The magical thinking level here on DU is getting absurd. President Obama is a normal adult male in a public service job. He's doing it well from a Republican point of view, but since that's not the party he ran under...ya, there are going to be issues.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)He's doing a hell of a job ... for a Republican.
But yeah, I'm wondering where these falling apart stories are. I mean, not the ones espoused by the Reactionary Right, but the ones, usually correct, by the Progressive Left.
I had to qualify that, Hydra, because, as I'm sure you know, someone is going to conflate the two!
creeksneakers2
(7,962 posts)He's nowhere near where they are.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)If any of their stodgy old bastards were running the same platform, they'd be crowing.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)Next is what they say or what label they self-apply. Down the list somewhere is the most important thing to notice about politicians: what they actually do.
BumRushDaShow
(167,851 posts)
SunSeeker
(58,030 posts)
frylock
(34,825 posts)I know that was my goal when I signed up in 2002. just bide my time till a dem got elected then just start hammering away. it's even better that the elected dem is black, because now I realize, thanks to so many posters here, that my support of progressive policy is really just some sort of latent racism.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)
Progressive dog
(7,593 posts)TransitJohn
(6,937 posts)eom
BumRushDaShow
(167,851 posts)TransitJohn
(6,937 posts)n/t
BumRushDaShow
(167,851 posts)MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)Or Reagan policy if you will.
I don't think pro-labor policy is "leftist" policy. It used to be standard Democratic policy. So too were the basic social policies that have been all but abandoned.
BumRushDaShow
(167,851 posts)which ended up being challenged and will now be under review by the Supreme court, was "anti-labor"?
M'kay. 
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)Look at the overall policy of this party for the past thirty years.
tiredtoo
(2,949 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Either we support organized labor or we don't.
Either we will hold the banks accountable for obvious in your face crimes of fraud or we won't.
Either we protect the environment even against massive corporate push back or we won't.
Either we support working class America or we don't.
Either we favor job destroying secret trade deals or we don't.
Either we will preserve the social safety net against all enemies or we won't.
But we can't pretend straying from core Democratic Party principles is fine and dandy. I don't care who the fucking president is.
deafskeptic
(463 posts)
RavensChick
(3,123 posts)because if that happens, the repukes will come full force and we'll have another 4-8 years of pure torture!
That's exactly what those assholes want, so that's why the anti-everything movement has infected this site, so we should not give the freepers the upper hand. If anything, we should be united and stop being divided.
Yes, things have not gone in the president's favor, and Congress could give 2 shits about the American people, so until things improve, albeit slowly, sadly DU is going to be more anti and not pro the way we should be.
Liberalynn
(7,549 posts)GreedIsGood
(20 posts)
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts) 
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)This site has long had a large anti-Democratic Party streak, especially after Democrats took control of the House and did not immediately impeach George Buishermann. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1516412&mesg_id=1517254
But even before that, there would be posters claiming that "most Democrats voted for the Iraq war resolution" (false) or that "many Democrats voted for the Bush tax cuts" (false again) and so on.
BUT
you are also the guy who thought that "making 85% of the Bush tax cuts permanent" was a huge victory for Obama.
I happen to think that it was a huge betrayal and that Obama and all the Democrats who voted for it and all those (like the legendary Elizabeth Warren and other supposed progressives like Tammy Baldwin and Sherrod Brown and Al Franken) who stood quietly by and let it happen, instead of proposing and fighting for an alternative. Those useless Democrats DESERVE to be attacked and held accountable by we the people.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I could have sworn there was a hell of a lot more to that deal than just making 85% of the bush tax cuts permanent? Who knew?
Do you think that the raising of the debt ceiling, the extension of Federal U/C, the continued funding of the social safety net programs, might be what they were referring to as the victory ... and the making the tax cuts, including those that you currently enjoy, permanent was the cost for that victory?
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)And unemployment was extended a couple other times previously without giving trillions in permanent tax cuts to the rich in order to achieve that.
Oh no, Republicans were supposed to be so sad because they had to vote for permanent tax cuts for the rich. What a huge defeat for them
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022117532
But you too want to pretend that that sow's ear is really a silk purse, and that the temporary extension of unemployment is a bigger victory than permanent tax cuts is a defeat/betrayal.
As for the tax cuts that I "currently enjoy" well I say "fuck them" as if my $600 is a reason to celebrate and never mind that Mitt Romney gets almost $1,000,000 in tax cuts and Rush Limbaugh gets $12,000. And never mind too that my taxes went up by $600 when the accursed payroll tax cut expired.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'm confusing the "this is terrible because the got something t(hat someone needed), but they got more" arguments ... but yes, for everyone that was recieving U/C ... it was a victory, for everyone depending on every dollar to for food and shelter the tax cut that you would throw away is a victory, even though someone else got a lot more.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)although almost everybody wants another one to spend.
Oh, yes, thanks to the betrayal of ATRA, the poorest 20% got $111 billion in tax cuts and you think we should cheer that and never mind that the richest 5% got $1.3 trillion in permanent tax cuts.
After all, who cares about a little inequality?
If that was the case, then why oppose the fucking Bush tax cuts in the first place? Why not vote for Republicans and Romney then, who will push through another Bush-type tax cut that will give a few dollars to the bottom (and a whole lot more to the top, but what the heck, who cares?)
It's like a cabal sitting around going "$1.3 trillion to the richest 5%, how can we sell that to the public?" and somebody says "Why don't we include that $200 billion we were gonna spend on extended unemployment benefits anyway, and we can tell people we only gave $1.3 trillion to the rich, for the sake of the unemployed. Then some rubes will actually celebrate our victory."
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)who post "Obama is gonna kill you with a drone" nonsense on a regular basis. Many get privileges revoked early on and many hang around for a while skirting the edge.
MADem
(135,425 posts)emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)Every post is a smear job against Democrats, and not one bad word said about Republicans. BetterBelieveIt was one of those, but not that subtle about it. There are a couple or so who are very slick and don't make mistakes like BBI did,
Game is Divide and Conquer.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)hung around for some time before Skinner finally gave him the heave ho. I think he is still here under other names.
emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)I can think of another poster with almost the exact same standard operating procedure:
- post a smear article made up of half-truth and innuendo
- claim to be "personally attacked" by anybody who does a fact-check or deconstructs the rhetorical devices being used.
blue neen
(12,465 posts)there's more than one.
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)those gop/teaparty/patriots. they think they win every time challenging anyone who disagrees with their insipid postings - to support our common sense data backed postings with "evidence".
one troll was so ridiculous in his rants, i put him on ignore - and 3 other posters on the same thread also disappeared with that one ignore. they are like black mold.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)they think they are such clever disguisers, eh?
saracat1 has been back for awhile now.
Too clever by half.
lamp_shade
(15,430 posts) 
n2doc
(47,953 posts)Is a Democrat a member who dutifully supports Obama no matter what? Or is a Democrat someone who supports principles traditionally upheld by the Party but seemingly abandoned in the rush to keep us safe from all enemies, foreign and domestic?
I agree that there is a lot of anger. There are a lot of things to be angry about.
Pick your poison. March lockstep with the present leadership, or try to fight it but perhaps lose to the other side.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Overall I think he is a pretty badass president. My problem is with people who think I'm supposed to stop being a supporter of the president because I disagree with him on this or that.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)I suspect several DU'ers think I hate Obama. I don't, I voted for him both times, and went to his first Inaugural. I just have been very disappointed by his shift (at least, my perception of it) away from what he said he would do and what he has actually done, in particular expanding the security state and not dealing with the fraud in the financial services industry. But he has done some things I really like. His administration is almost schizophrenic at times (Fracking being the latest example).
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)accuse me of not supporting the President.
When I have disagreed, even publicly and vigorously at times, I didn't do it in a way that tore the President down, impute ugly motives to him or hurt the party to make them more vulnerable to Republicans in the next election.
That makes all the difference.
BumRushDaShow
(167,851 posts)
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)n2doc
(47,953 posts)My impression is that any criticism of Obama's policies gets labeled as non-support of the President. Any criticism is seen as hurting the party's chances. But my hat's off to you if you have found a way to disagree without getting accused of that.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)post a thing in support of him) that bothers me so much. I won't name names, but there are at least 3 of those with high post counts. Makes a person wonder.................
dionysus
(26,467 posts)emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)Hekate
(100,133 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts) emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)
ellie
(6,975 posts)on to serve in juries where they alert on posters who disagree with someone in their cabal. It is ridiculous.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I came out in support of the Amash Amendment and caught zero shit from people who opposed it, mainly because like them I am a supporter of the President and the Democratic Party and they know it. It is people who have been slamming Obama for five years straight and who have a weekly final straw, now its official he has sold us out moment - when they never supported him to begin with who get, rightly, labeled as anti- Obama - because they are.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)...and again regarding him not being strong enough in responding to the scandals.
You wouldn't know that if you listen to some folks here who label me some kind of sycophant or cheerleader. I have no problem disagreeing when I think the President is wrong, but I won't criticize on a knee-jerk without really understanding what is going on.
Chained CPI:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/lesersense/2013/04/14/making-sense-with-steve-leser--rude-pundit-and-femen
-----------------------------------------------------------
Criticizing him for not being strong enough responding to the various scandals
-----------------------------------------------------------
To the above, you can add disagreeing with his Syria policy (I dont think we should be involved), you can add that I thought we should have gone to medicare for all/HR676 and a few more.
Again though, you will not hear anyone here accuse me of not supporting the President. You will always note that when I criticize its because I want him to do better and want him to be successful. You do not get that impression from many of his critics here.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)n
mountain grammy
(28,876 posts)
great white snark
(2,646 posts)
Spazito
(55,343 posts)Indeed it does! Excellent post!
emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)
uponit7771
(93,512 posts)DonRedwood
(4,359 posts)I want this to be an OP on the front page!
Bobbie Jo
(14,344 posts)dennis4868
(9,774 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)
SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)not trying to be snarky I promise but I would like to read these if possible
I have until recently lived in an area with spotty internet and need to catch up
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)I will du search ffor the rest
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)My segment on Syria starts at the 17th minute or so http://www.blogtalkradio.com/lesersense/2013/06/03/making-sense-with-steve-leser--house-scorecard-syria-irs
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)no chief executive is going to try to limit the powers of the executive branch regardless of whether they should or even if they said they would. It just doesn't work that way. So I was very pleased to see the congress starting to move in the direction of reining those powers in some. Didn't quite get there, but ten years after the Patriot Act at least it is some movement. And I oppose fracking too.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)He said they should be cutting back his (and therefore his successors') Executive powers because we should not remain on a permanent war footing.
After all, due to the way our government works a President cannot expand or contract his powers by himself. Legally, it takes an Act of Congress -- otherwise, as in the cases of Nixon and Bush, it just takes collusion to make a power grab.
So I assume you are as pleased as I was when Obama said this.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)another example would be his executive order limiting interrogations of enemy combatants to the Army field manual, thus ending the Bush torture program.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)It seems schizophrenic if you listen to what they say and then compare it to what they do.
But if you just follow what they do, it's the very consistent agenda of the fossil fuel companies, military/security companies, and the big banks.
Except for a few symbolic gestures, the overall direction is remarkably consistent.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)The former implies some sort of ineptness in method. No, it's quite methodical, and it's quite successful.
DonRedwood
(4,359 posts)But what I am seeing is the criticism of ourselves drowning out the news about what the Right Wing is doing. Um....didn't something weird happen in the Carolina's legislature this week? They did something about babies and motorcycles or something.
We wouldn't know because we've been too busy talking and fighting about how mad we are at Obama.
It reached a peak for me when I posted a positive post about Hillary Clinton and she was called a "witch" and bashed. And the jury said it was OK to call her a witch. And, I'm sorry, four years ago I don't think that would have been acceptable.
I could be wrong but, if I did a post called "Elizabeth Warren is a WITCH and we cannot vote for her" I am guessing it wouldn't stay up very long. I would HOPE it wouldn't stay up very long.
I just think our discourse needs to be done in a way that does not weaken our party. ANy weakening of our party sends more Republicans to Washington.
DU was all IRS Scandal there for a while. We felt terrible there because it looked like our party had done some terrible things. I felt ashamed when I heard the news. I came to DU that day hoping I'd read the truth, but DU was in flames over it. And in those weeks We were so busy fighting amongst ourselves nobody paid any intention to the Carolina's and Virginia and nasty stuff was passed, and crooked governors were ignored and frakking kept on frakking.
I just don't want DU to be grabbing up their pitchforks without thinking because FOX told us to.
On the other hand, I'm here for the grown up discourse that comes from fellow DUers who seem to have a thirst for knowledge and the willingness to share the information they have learned. I wish we were more progressive in this country. But I also know it is slow going. I will carry on while it is my turn, as we all our doing, but every time we win they start fighting to undo it. THey lost, but nobody seems to have told them they lost. So the fight just goes on. Maybe forever.
And I just want my team strong and focused, yet willing to keep ourselves in line by calling our own in a way that demands change but does not demean my party.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)stand up for workers, unions and minorities, but who are corporate friendly instead. They need to be criticized when their actions hurt the people they are supposed to represent.
About Snowden, it's not political but a division within the ranks. Some want to crucify him and others want to save him from crucification.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)so-called leaders are capable of is to just keep shoveling the happy/helpless shit while more and more people fall off the radar.
We have two parties controlling the entire political process, neither of which gives a rat's ass about the people they've helped ruin.
Bitching about republicans is simply screaming into the wind, but the Democrats keep promising to make the changes needed, yet are incapable of achieving anything except where it involves giving ever more of our money to the parasites destroying our world. That shit can be done overnight, in secret, every day.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)
BobbyBoring
(1,965 posts)The sad truth is, 95% of the house and senate need to go. All Rs and a host of Ds. That's gonna be a hard one to pull off!
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)
Myrina
(12,296 posts)
Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #13)
Post removed
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)virtually 100% of the time? When all you've got is grade school level insults and a plagiarized catch-phrase to boost your own determined denial/ignorance to what is going on all around you, perhaps it's time to really look at what it is you are promoting and why.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 30?
Come on, don't be like that preacher dude who keeps getting the end-of-times wrong (or did he die by now?)
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)come on. you can not put a date on something such as that. That is just silly. To some it has already happened, to some it is very close. To you, we are still in paradise.
edit - to some, we have yet to achieve the "promise" of America.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)How very typical.
I guess that whole introspection thing is well outside your sphere of comprehension as well.
polichick
(37,626 posts)and in that way it can be a bit comforting.
2naSalit
(101,479 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts) markiv
(1,489 posts)as fake as professional wrestling
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)Frankly Democrats vs Republicans seems a fools game on a par with Studio Wrestling.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)stop and consider the inevitable consequences of the actions their heroes take in all of our names. It's simply unfathomable that any thinking person can look at the last 50 years and not see the disintegration all around us.
What do they think is going to come of this capitulation and collusion?
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Hekate
(100,133 posts)Hmmmm.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)However, without a lot of Democratic collusion the republicans could never have fucked up this nation as badly.
Maraya1969
(23,476 posts)I wonder who is running DU at this point! That just makes the OP's statements more true.
Who thinks the Democrats do not give a shit about the people in this country. The ones who bring up jobs bills, and try to increase food stamps and fund education and build things. The ones who fight against the rabid r's and their too often successful anti-abortion laws. Do you think Windy Davis didn't give a shit about American women when she filibustered for 11 hours to stop a law attacking them?
What about all the Democrats that lefts the state when Scott Walked planned his anti-union bill?
And what happened to both these bills? They were both forced into reality by the evil frigging republicans.
You may find it fun to put down democrats but I don't find it appropriate at all. You are supposed to BE a Democrat to be on this board.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)on a registration form. The reply was hidden, not for disagreeing with what I wrote, but for being nasty and calling out another DUer (who hadn't even replied to my reply).
I'm somewhat amazed that you apparently can't see the problem with what is going on in the party. Democrats are not the problem, as you point out there are some very good people that do care and are Democrats, the problem is the people that control the Democratic Party and dictate what is done after the election. It is they that make the kinds of undemocratic actions we object to possible. It was a nominally Democratic Speaker that blocked HR. 676 from consideration for two years before the President was elected. It was nominal Democrats that wiped out Glass-Steagall and nominal Democrats that created another corporate blowjob through bankruptcy "reform", in fact, all of the so-called "reforms" of the last 20 years were done by Democrats. The list goes on and on and on.
So I ask you again, just what is a Democrat anymore?
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)The current DC Dems don't do that.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)And when it comes to the leaders we employ and pay I have no hesitation on commenting on their performance and how it measures up to expectations and what is needed to get the job done.
To not do so would be irresponsible and too much like the boot licking rw.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)I've thought that for awhile now. The spirit under which DU was started has been lost, and now there are a lot of people here who would never vote for a Democrat and make it their goal to attack them.
That said - nothing wrong with criticism when a Dem deserves it, but some of the stuff posted (and allowed to remain) is just plain ridiculous.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)who have been at this longer than you or I and have seen it all before. They are hyper-critical only because they love left wing ideals, and are frustrated not because they are trolls.
I doubt a real troll is going to hang aound for 20,000 posts.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)with reality.
And in my comments, dealing with reality means having to work with an opposition that has more money, more media support and no scruples when it comes to speaking lies.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)as the op was describing them as. sometimes they are right. sometimes they are mistaken but they are not trolls or anti dem. let's not get paranoid.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)an opposition that has more money, more media AND NO SCRUPLES?
Meaning they have all the real power. You go along and compromise all over the place? And where does that get you?
Not very far because you haven't addressed the "no scruples" part. Until we really fight the cancer eating this society at its core--the corruption, greed, lies, lack of a commonly held sense of ethics--the things we care about will never get done.
Because of the "no win" position the No Scruples party puts us in, a split between the centrist Dems and the Liberal Dems is inevitable. Centrist Dems think compromising is the solution. But we have seen that "work with" means RethugliCons always get what they want. Liberal Dems are more willing to face the fact that hardball & holding the line might be a better strategy.
I don't know that this split can be healed. So if DU reflects it, so be it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)ideologues, also, tend to NOT be those that would be hurt by they purity.
Ideologues are comfort with "ending the security state"; knows that they only watched 9/11 on TV ... Ideologues reject ObamaCare because it was not single-payer, and didn't have a public option, as the hurry off to their doctor's appointments ... Ideologues rile against budget deals/compromise; knowing that their food stamps, U/C and housing subsidies won't be touched, because they aren't receiving (direct) benefits from those programs.
In the words of the homeless guy I came across while I was serviing in a soup kitchen:
pmorlan1
(2,096 posts)You should be happy that there are many people to the left of you that you call ideologues. Without the ideologues on the left you will never have policies in the center. You will always be right of center. If our middle of the road politicians are the ones who create the policy then the only way they can compromise in a negotiation is to move to the right. If you have the left creating the policies all of your middle of the road compromising politicians can negotiate to the center. If you want center or left of center policies then you better start your negotiations from the left. So rather than knocking people on the left you should be happy that they are still in the Democratic Party and not in a third party.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)people to the Left of me ... I do have a problem with people that, in a "democracy" confuse their ideology with governance. In democracies, at some point one must do the deal that can be done, even when that means you don't get everything that you want.
I have a problem with people that would burn down someone else's house because a third person "got more."
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)There are some who have bragged on Conservative sites about their high-post numbers on DU, and some have even bragged about having been Mods.
Just because someone has a high-post count DOESN't mean they aren't a troll.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)And now come here and play Democrat on DU.
It works both ways.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Except for the troll part. The World Wide Web seems to have evolved a pathetic breed that believes spending hours every day, sometimes for years, doing nothing but trying to disrupt conversations and provoke reactions from others is a worthwhile way to flush their lives.
Seeing the support for the 3rd Way, DINO's, DLC and other Republican so-called Lite is counter productive for any politically Center or Left of center people, i.e., actual Democrats.
When you see the excuse that any Democrat is better than a Republican, all that is, is excusing right-wing Democrats for dragging the party ever more to the Right. In the grand scheme of things,the (D) or (R) by the name, should matter less than their policies. Too many people on both sides, don't have the capability of thinking past the letter by the name and so we have the current situation. So we keep supporting and excusing evermore Right-wing Democrats, without holding their "feet to the fire".
Those of us that do and are critical of the current policies, get attacked for not supporting Democrats. Well, maybe these "Democrats" we aren't properly supporting, are supporting too many Right-wing policies.
Caretha
(2,737 posts)Joe Lieberman, or a myriad of other Democratic politicians who support right wing policies.
DissidentVoice
(813 posts)There is no way what he supports now is in line with traditional Democratic policies.
Caretha
(2,737 posts)element in the Republican convention. There isn't a honest bone in his body.
DissidentVoice
(813 posts)...at least he didn't continue to pretend he was a Democrat.
Why Al Gore chose him as his running mate in 2000 is still beyond me.
blue neen
(12,465 posts)n/t.
Roland99
(53,345 posts)and pervs and criminals and threats against the Constitution and friends of Wall St and.....
forestpath
(3,102 posts)Democrats_win
(6,541 posts)The anti-Democrat posts may or may not be justified, but Americans need to join to fight the GOP's sabotaging of America.
As American's we do our best for our families, friends, communities and nation. This is while the GOP is trying to destroy our communities and nation so that billionaires can get richer off of our struggles.
It is so disgusting. Oh, and don't forget the tit-for-tat method of the GOP. They'll turn it around and say we're sabotaging America. Truly, our methods are not working. When will our side start being effective?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)The fact is, even in the areas with which you and I find some disagreement with fellow DUers, there is an approach to dealing with those issues that involves progress without having to tear down the party and its elected officials. But a size-able contingent here can't do that.
It's not like folks like you and I and others here don't have concerns about privacy and things like that. I would totally support many things to try and address those concerns. But going around calling Obama names and calling people names who don't agree with a completely unreasonable approach, well, it's counterproductive at best and could hand more power to the Republicans at worst.
And at the end of the day, the approach of losing ones mind and calling Obama and other Democrats' names and accusing them of all these terrible things is not going to accomplish what they hope to accomplish. If anything, it is going to ensure that there is no progress on these issues.
dembotoz
(16,922 posts)I have at time a hard time swallowing the centrist tilt of the party.
du should be a place where I could express that
better to express than to just pick up my stuff and go home.
du can handle it
BumRushDaShow
(167,851 posts)Right there is part of why there is a problem. There is a group on DU who insists that DU was tailor made for what they define it as. And this nonsense about anything not "lefty left", which IMHO is "leftist", is somehow "centrist" or "rightwing" or "authoritarian" or "apologist" or any other idiotic term hurled as a perjorative. I.e., whoever may consider themselves a plain old "liberal" or "progressive" is now considered a "totalitarian corporate shill".
Bobbie Jo
(14,344 posts)You hit the nail on the head.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)So is wanting the Pentagon budget cut instead of headStart and SNAP. Waaaaaaay out there!
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)I finally had to auto-trash some topics. Or leave DU. And put one person on ignore. The constant, never-ending drumbeat is obvious and ridiculous. The Democrats get 2 months out of every 4 years on "DEMOCRATIC Underground." What a joke.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts) Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)You weren't here when we were fighting against Bush. You weren't here when we were fighting against right wing policies. If you were here you would understand that those of us pissed off at Obama have not changed our point of view on the issues. We are not hypocrites. When Obama behaves in ways that bolster the corporations and hurt the average citizens we speak up. We don't suddenly act like all those things we hate are okay just because a Democrat is in the white house.
Those who do are hypocrites.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,628 posts)It seems there is a confusion by the OP. Its not that there are real Democrats and anti-Democrats.
Its that some Democrats pledge their allegiance to the Party. The historic principles of The New Deal. Of looking out for "the common good". That bolstering the middle and lower classes makes, in the end, a stronger country, instead of the .01% trickle down "trust us" theory. And a woman's right to chose, and background checks for gun purchases, a public option for medical insurance....and a few more.. Issues that will be around long after the present President retires, things we all have to continually be fighting to keep or initiate.
And some Democrats pledge their allegiance to whatever Democratic administration happens to be in office. And whatever that President decides on their behalf is good enough for them during the four years+ he is in office. Its more of a loyalty to a personality.
So the first type inevitably gets a little antsy when the D President begins to shift away from his own Party principles. Especially when there is no other meaningful choice to vote for.
The second just simply moves their own inner goal posts to the right to accommodate the newly adopted positions of their representative in the White House, even legislation that Reagan and Nixon would balk at. And then perhaps get panicky when they see others are not simply following along with them, that others have the audacity to question those they voted into office. That they regard him as a public servant put there to carry out the will of the people, and not just a Democratic celebrity.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)+++
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)"Divide them. Make them Angry. Make them despair. And while they are distracted, steal the election."
I do believe we have some long-term DUers who are working for the RW to divide us and basically stir up sh--.
Andy823
(11,555 posts)It worked in 2010, and they are using it once again, but this time with more trolls, and what seems like a lot of Paulbots. I also think we have "sleeper" trolls that have been here a long time and come out, usually, in the non presidential election years, the years when it seems much easier to get people mad enough to not vote by keeping things all stirred up around here. The trolls seem to work both sides of the issues, and some I have noticed are posting on "both" siders of the issues in order to keep things going. Things the should be discussed get pushed off the front page and all the "heated" threads keep getting bumped up.
I find that when posters start calling the president "Obummer", say that he is the same as Bush and Nixon, comment that he has been a total failure, and all using kinds of right wing talking points, I have to wonder just exactly what their "real" agenda is here.
Its to bad so many people here fall for the BS and join in the bashing. People have a right to not agree with things, but it's been going way past that point in many cases.
liberal from boston
(856 posts)Thank you Andy823--you put into words my thoughts. I was happy to read the OP Post today. I have noticed the trolls here for awhile. The name calling, falsely equating that there is no difference between Democrats & Republicans, & parroting right wing talking points. What is the solution???
eridani
(51,907 posts)The people who didn't show in 2010 were the occasional voters who come out for a presidential election but hardly anything else.
Fearless
(18,458 posts)Corporate interests are winning.
canoeist52
(2,282 posts)Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)whining would be if you had your post hidden and then started a new thread to complain about it.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)LOL! 
longime demolurker
(20 posts)This place looks more and more like free republic every day. I am getting suspicious of some kind of infiltration by the pukes. Too bad, really.
frylock
(34,825 posts)hmmmmnn... me too.
DonRedwood
(4,359 posts)
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)According to "Back to the Future" we were supposed to look like this in 2015:
Instead, we look like this:
Go on,...go find some power laces.
The only thing we got was the flat panel TV.
SunSeeker
(58,030 posts)
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)it feels increasingly like StormFront and InfoWars, and less like a pro-Democratic website. The amount of conspiracy theories I see here about the government spying on everyone and plotting to randomly kill people with drones is baffling. At least if people are going to be worked up about something, be outraged about something that actually is happening in RL and is affecting average Americans, like the disintegration of voting rights and threats to the personal freedoms of women. There is this, and also the caliber of talking points I have seen here lately towards fellow posters: "Obamabot", "authoritarian", "paid shill", "police state"...all of this is what I would expect to hear from wingnuts and Libertarians, not Democrats.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Godlike Productions.
JustAnotherGen
(37,861 posts)Only think you left off is the 'Facist and Nazi and Stasi' name calling. Those too.
Rex
(65,616 posts)and there are also a few here that ONLY critique the POTUS. Both groups seem to not care what the other group has to say. THIS has been going on since the first term. Nothing new.
Igel
(37,468 posts)There's more of a coalition, with various groups having their own goals and priorities.
There are differences in
class
race
age
pro-D vs anti-R
pro-poor vs anti-rich
education
focus on morality, money, or power
historical perspective--do we live in the past or are we existentialist?
geography
knowledge
tolerance and empathy
short-term vs long-term
paranoia
On any given topic, you're going to have different splits as a matter of course. The GZ/TM thing was a case in point. The divides were raw and the accusations--with some glaringly trollish behavior and lots of name-calling--were as you'd expect.
My observation is that in the morning there are more posts that are strictly news-based. There's the latest news cross-posted to other fora. Some stories are positive, but when a party is in power there are going to be more negative, esp. in the second term when all the pecadilloes from the first term surface and people look for more recent ones.
By evening the general discussion forum is mostly emoting and reacting to what has already been said. Hard news dribbles to a trickle. More people are home from their day jobs, as well, so the nature of DU has to change.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)with Che avatars, leading the revolution from their keyboards.
pmorlan1
(2,096 posts)It's funny that you would knock someone for using a Che avatar considering you are using an avatar of a Republican President. LOL You are aware that Lincoln was a Republican, correct? Does that place you in the "cesspool of wingers" that you referenced?
tabasco
(22,974 posts)your post makes you appear.
But you would be unable to understand.
Number23
(24,544 posts)xocet
(4,385 posts)"NSA...all of these situations where a little bit of homework, a little bit of sleuthing, a little bit of investigating, fall apart."
When did the NSA story fall apart?
When will DNI Clapper resign or be prosecuted for lying to Congress? Surely, you have seen the video by now:
An ancillary question is whether President Obama is credible:
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)There's really nothing left _but_ snark for many of us, we've been fighting each other long enough to know that the other side has about as much chance of changing their mind as we do ourselves.
It reminds me of the old joke about a guy who goes to prison. He notices that every now and then one of the prisoners will call out a number, like "seventyfour" and all the other prisoners laugh.
He asks his cellmate about it and is told "We only have one joke book in here, and everybody has memorized it. So if you want to tell a joke, all you need is its number.
Eventually the new guy gets the book, and starts to memorize it. Joke number 87 strikes him as a real knee-slapper, so he calls out "Eightyseven". Nobody laughs. Just silence. Then his cellmate says "Well, some people just can't tell a joke!"
We've all memorized each others arguments down nearly to the last syllable, there's not much basis for actual discussion among a lot us at this juncture.
olddots
(10,237 posts)We seem to know each other digitally where there is little room for forgiveness = 0 or 1
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)war with Syria!!!
Not cool.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)of about policy or issues, it is always about people. They see sinners sinning and have to speak out in affected righteousness...even though the SOP of GD say this, very clearly:
"Statement of Purpose
Discuss politics, issues, and current events. No conspiracy theories. No whining about DU."
This OP and the other 'Sins of my fellow DUers' posts are of course attacks on Democrats in and of themselves while also being against the stated purpose of GD. This one and many are also conspiracy tinged, seeing nefarious motives and hidden agendas behind the post of ever sinner and liberal and whatnot....
I think the admins were right to get rid of Meta and that those of you who want to gossip about others anyway are in the wrong.
xocet
(4,385 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)yet another inspiring post from you
Rex
(65,616 posts)Sup mean girl!
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)this is a topic that NEEDS to be talked about on this site, cable channels, the DNC, the RNC, and the actual participants in congress and WH.
There is no need to be disagreeable and act like the world will end if your idealogical opponent isn't cast as the devil's spawn by you and others to make your point.
emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)
JVS
(61,935 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
-Eleanor Roosevelt
emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)said he was from the Rocky Mountains?
Just because you didn't like his opinion on the Weiner scandal, you projected a bunch of total bullshit on him.
It was the worst case I have seen on DU of randomely and irrationally shoving words into another person's mouth and then blasting them for things they didn't say.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3328473
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)how sexual matters should never ever matter when it is about some straight male when they did and still do sit around and make excuses for all sorts of homophobes and homophobic laws. They NEVER stood up for us, but for some creep like Anthony they are suddenly sexuality activists. Yes it pisses me off that they have the gall to play that card after watching straights attack us as 'pony wanters' for not wanting our sexuality attacked by centrist candidates.
Ever heard the word omission? It means things you did not do or say but probably should have, like the years on end during which straight Democrats did not speak up, did not stand up, but instead excused crap like Rick Warren and shoved hate preachers into our Party. I will never forgive those who did that, ever. Like hanging a sign on the door saying 'unwelcome'. I was born into this Party. Centrist Straights on crusade made me feel unwelcome in it, by shouting 'poutrage' and demeaning our quest for rights. But some hetero in a sex scandal, suddenly the same folks are big Free Love proponents, simply shocked that sexuality has any part in anything, they play naive, 'why should this matter?!?!' they ask, as if their own community does not attack others DAILY over sexuality. As if their community does not insist on legal discrimination against minorities they don't like in most of this country. 'Why should sex matter??!' they gasp, as if it is not the main issue used against others in their own nation.
You can afford to see it as unrelated that people who are hyped for Tony are apathetic to actual common people constantly mistreated under the law in this nation. All that fuss for him. None for some guy fired for being born.
Whatever.
SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)let me take this opportunity to offer you my apologies in any of this I may be guilty of
very powerful
I hope others will read this and maybe see something in themselves that can be fixed
again thank you and I apologize deeply for not being fully able to see a situation from outside myself
emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)As there was nothing anti-gay in his post, implied or otherwise.
That being said, your post would make an excellent thread.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)show the proper reverence for the president. In my book, that is not "politically liberal" behavior.
kirby
(4,532 posts)Various elected Democrats are engaging in anti-Democratic behavior.
railsback
(1,881 posts)They want their NSA candy bar, and they want it now, or they're going to throw a big tantrum right in the middle of the store. The Republicans have already tied this fallacy into their Repeal Obamacare efforts. Well done!
The ideal strategy is to get the Republicans out of office and have a workable Congress, but these crusaders with their Hail Mary passes are just prolonging the agony we ALL must endure. Losing the Senate will be harsh, but that doesn't seem to matter at all. Evil, bad Obama and his STASI brigade are coming to take your 'freedoms' away. The Right, right now, is DATA MINING all this shit. The Left is making Tea Party campaign ads for free.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)You just gave a perfect example of a Democrat heaping disdain on Democrats.
Oh, and by the way. The Democratic party is the party of the LEFT and the Republican party is the party of the RIGHT. Which side are you on?
If you say you are in the middle, it means you support both Democratic and republican policies.
railsback
(1,881 posts)[img]
[/img]
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Once upon a time the Democratic party was highly pragmatic.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)Didn't help Kennedy much did it?
railsback
(1,881 posts)his face on U.S. currency, and a consistent rating average of around 12 on historical presidential ratings without even serving a full term.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)That doesn't sound entirely pragmatic to me.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Principles like ending poverty, health care for all, adhering to the fourth amendment, etc. are not negotiable.
railsback
(1,881 posts)the 4th Amendment was written by the Founding Fathers to protect their smuggling activities. Later alterations were made to compensate for technologies, and now cyberspace has completely blurred the lines - to which the proposed solution seems to be to ensure even more privacy, even as more are interconnected, expanding the possibilities for cyber thieves, hackers, and even those dreaded terrorists, all who can zip here and there at blinding speed, and then disappear in a poof. Its illogical, like replacing a perfectly good tire with a flat one.
Yes, pragmatic means understanding the social needs of a society AND utilizing tools to make sure they don't get screwed over.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)we write off? I am not willing to live under the tyranny of the surveillance state that you are apparently willing to live under. I guess when the revolution comes you will side with your big daddy, the 1%.
"pragmatic means understanding the social needs of a society AND utilizing tools to make sure they don't get screwed over." You gotta be joking. It means nothing of the sort. "Utilizing tools to make sure" society "don't get screwed over." Like spying on all Americans? Is that the tool?
The fourth Amendment means to keep out of my shit unless you have probable cause. That's what I am willing to fight for.
railsback
(1,881 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)"discussion". Do you not understand what "probably cause" means?
railsback
(1,881 posts)So, yes, why carry on a speculative conversation if one side doesn't play along with the conspiracy. Takes the fun out of it.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Vote for Hillary and 4 more years of Wall Street success and poverty for the masses.
railsback
(1,881 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Without assumptions you'd be left with blind faith. And it's hard to avoid making assumptions. Those that have undying support for the NSA assumed almost immediately that Edward Snowden was bad, weak, had no appreciable evidence, etc. etc. They assumed that their Big Daddy NSA wouldnt betray their blind faith.
Of course your authoritarians will tell you that they dont make assumptions but only deal with facts. Ah, yes, facts. What they mean is that they made assumptions and when they met their world view, declare the assumptions as facts. Open-minded people are very cautious about being certain. It makes life a little harder, but IMO better.
railsback
(1,881 posts)"Those that have undying support for the NSA assumed almost immediately that Edward Snowden was bad, weak, had no appreciable evidence, etc. etc."
No one can 'work their way to the truth' going down such paths.
For example, for me, I'd have no problem with Manning if he leaked specific info. Instead, he did a massive document dump with little knowledge of what he was dumping, or who might get ahold of it. I'd have no problem with Snowden if he leaked specific info showing the NSA was breaking the laws as written. Instead, he leaked the entire blueprint of how we protect ourselves as a nation, while ALL the other nations, who use the same tactics in one form or another, take notes, and have NO intention of revealing their own apparatuses. He also stole classified material and fled the country with it. Der Speigel wouldn't even print much of what Snowden handed off to them. Both are careless, both put our nation at risk, and both should pay for it.
This isn't Star Trek. There's no 'one nation', no 'one human race'. We STILL live in a world of nations and races, who have no desire to expose their borders to other nations in the name of 'humanity' and 'freedom'. If given the opportunities, they WILL use whatever they can attain to strengthen themselves. It would be ignorant to think otherwise.
One can be 'open minded' AND understand the complexities of this world enough to know that the U.S. STILL needs to protect itself in order to survive, AND ALSO that We are a nation of laws, written by our elected representatives, that MUST be adhered to, and that We The People, have the power to change those laws through elections.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)I absolutely believe we need to protect ourselves. But I am not willing to increase the poverty level to 99% to achieve that level of protection. I believe if we stop killing people around the world like we are the biggest bully, that might make us safer.
Also, when we hire a watch-dog we must be careful and keep him on a leash so he doent become a bigger danger than what he is to protect us from. Looks to me like tyranny is a much bigger danger than terrorists.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)"The Left"...."candy bar"..."temper tantrum"..."crusaders"..."The Left"
I think Railsback may have had a point of some sort, but I lost track of it in all the aggressive snark.
railsback
(1,881 posts)STASI, Fascist, Totalitarianism, Corporatist, all leveled by the Left at this administration
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)always summoning GOTV troops.
And "the Right, right now," are not the ones in charge of the data-mining.
railsback
(1,881 posts)Like that GOTV troop thing, which did wonders in 2010, and the Left's current meme, that no matter who's in government, they're going to suck… so why even vote?
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)And every time you betray us, you lose more. The authoritarian wing of the party has been losing ground at every level for three decades now.
But we're the problem...
railsback
(1,881 posts)You can't win if you don't motivate turnout, and you don't motivate turnout by saying that government is the STASI.
Good Grief.
We'll probably see an even more dramatic drop in voter turnout than we did in 2010.
TheKentuckian
(26,314 posts)Absent that, not doing and proposing shit that the people that are willing to actually vote for despise in a vain effort to win over or compromise with the people that never will at least allows plausible deniability enough to try to sell folks on voting.
railsback
(1,881 posts)People turn out in masses when there's a shiny new object, and/or when they're feeling good about their personal situations.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)being divisive? You say the left wants their NSA candy bar now. What are you calling a candy bar? Freedom from illegal spying by our government? If so, then I definitely want it now. You see I believe we have certain principles that are not negotiable. Since you are not part of the left, what are you? And is it your objective to alienate the left? Disrupt? What?
railsback
(1,881 posts)Fact is, nothing is going to get done until the GOP are reduced to a permanent minority in Congress, yet the Left keeps putting them back in office by undermining progression with shiny objects. Browbeating the current administration will just keep the GOP entrenched, setting us back even more years, years that shit won't get done.
Now, we're most likely going to lose the Senate in 2014, a repeat of 2010, when the GOP masterfully used the Left's disappointment in the passage of Obamacare (corporate give-a-way) against them. Turnout was low. We lost the House and probably the best Speaker ever. And now they're doing it again, using the NSA shiny object to cut the legs out from under Democratic candidates, even using the evils of data mining to attack Obamacare AGAIN, and pointing to the Left's agreement that 'our Rights are under attack'. Sound familiar? It should. The majority of the electorate are low information voters. They are PUTTY.
No ground game. No big picture. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)grassroots campaign going and was interested in electing as many good democrats as possible. I myself have been guilty of voicing my opinion on the Snowden deal, he has committed crimes and needs to do the time. What most of us are not aware of is the inside information behind NSA need to gather information and to do so is working on offense rather than cleaning up after bombings and our citizens are killed. I read a post by Steve Lesser some weeks back and he had detailed information on how the FISA was enacted and more information in the past few years. We do not live in the world before terrorist started the bombings and killing Americans, we need to be aware of our surroundings.
I get upset at some of the comments I read here, almost like from FOX to DU, the republicans does a fine job of tearing down Democrats, we do not need the trolls with their hate. I would love to see DU get back to who is running for what office, the reasons why they should be elected and what the running on the ground by Democrats in order to get these good Democrats elected. I have lived in the Democrat controlled Congress and saw good things come from good Democrats, we can get back to that same greatness but we have to work the elections in order to get this back again. If I do not agree with decisions made by Obama I try to check to see why the decision was made and understand he has a big job to do.
Thanks again for your post.
treestar
(82,383 posts)On occasion they go too far and spill the beans. There was a thread trying to bash Obama in favor of Elizabeth Warren, or a post in a thread praising her, and wondering why Obama's "fans" weren't in the thread. Since Obama can't run again, there was no need to attempt a division between supporters of Warren vs. supporters of Obama. It wasn't a division that would work or even help Warren - but someone was trying to stir it up.
BumRushDaShow
(167,851 posts)As if people who support Obama don't also support much of Warren has done and the point of view that she represents. They truly are a narcissistic bunch. 
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)Who else is going to do it?
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)Well said my dear. 
I'm saddened to see DU blanketed with posts meant to divide and discourage.
Julie
great white snark
(2,646 posts)The title is "Democratic Underground" but most of the content is anything but.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)at some of the comments.
I grew up in a Republican family with Ike and Mamie plates hung on the walls while Tammany Hall ran New York. Tammany was slowly being busted up by the Feds and Reform Democrats and Ed Koch was a breath of fresh air to some who knew what was going on. While all this was going on, Long Island was a pit of shame while Republicans were trying to build their own crooked dynasties. Still are.
Democrats in Joisey were, and still largely are, controlled by several county machines and the thought of actual democracy scares the crap out of them. I thought I was pretty jaded until I found out first hand how things worked.
Democrats down South were the yellow dogs who existed purely because of Lincoln and when Johnson dared to talk civil rights and back it up with action, they dumped the Lincoln hatred and jumped right into Republican arms.
So, just what are are those great Democratic traditions that were lost over the years and our present pols find it so hard to live up to?
Should you ask why I'm a Democrat after all that. Well, it started with a woman (doesn't it always) back in college and even if they don't live up to them, I still prefer stated Democratic "values."
sigmasix
(794 posts)I fully support open dialogue that is honest dialogue. When DU members offer honest critisism of a democrat or the president without suggesting treason, moral terpitude, conspiring to commit a crime against humanity or evil intentions, I'll listen. The "hair on fire, sky is falling" panic-minded conspiracy theory mongers with a love for half-truths and hyperbole about president Obama and the Democratic party are not honest DU members and do not deserve respect or intellectual charity from American patriots. We all know what they are and who they represent- a hi post count is just a simple matter of invested time in front of a pc on the part of the partisan operative. Think of high post counts for anti-Obama trolls as a simple investment. With funding and intention this is easy to do and repeat. Tearing down DU has been a pledge made accross the right wing blogo-sphere- why would any of us be surprised by the fact that some DU members (even long-lasting high post count ones) are foul, AntiAmerican right wing cowards in disguise.
Tikki
(15,083 posts)It does appear to me as if some have an agenda.
Tikki
Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)But the same divisions existed before-Naderites vs Democrats, Kucinich vs Clark vs Dean vs Kerry. Its just more obvious now when we be united in desperately trying to hold on while some are screaming "Off with his head!"
Safetykitten
(5,162 posts)emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)Well that's just adorable.
frylock
(34,825 posts)I think that you'll find the same posters you are criticizing held the same views and values that they do now.
Proud Public Servant
(2,097 posts)Does it mean that you support a coherent set of principles? Or does it mean you support elected politicians with a (D) after their names? It seems to me (and I haven't been here that long) that the arguments on DU these days are between those who believe the former (and are willing to criticize politicians when they stray from principles) and those who believe the latter (and are willing to downplay principles when the're not held by the politicians).
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)I've been here for 11 years and in my observation all the real oldtimers like Skittles, Will Pitt, Kentuck, KoKo, are in agreement about the current situation. It's not anti-Democratic to support a measure that is supported by far more Democrats than Republicans, or to oppose surveillance that expanded greatly under Bush/Cheney and continues to do so.
Conservative Cave targets for abuse precisely the same DUers who are targeted for abuse by the centrist "new" DU arrivals of recent times. In short, your perceptions seem terribly skewed, and I'm sorry that the propagandists have succeeded in biasing good people against other good people.
Skittles
(170,506 posts)yes INDEED
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)I'm always glad to see here, and see that our moral compasses are still working just fine unlike those of more recent arrivals
Hekate
(100,133 posts)IBTL, the way things are going these days.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)Between the conspiracy theory OPs and the use of questionable sources for anti-democratic articles,it's become embarrassing.
ColesCountyDem
(6,944 posts)I may occasionally take the President, the Senate or the DNC to task, but make no mistake about it-- I am 'INSIDE the tent pissing out' rather than 'OUTSIDE the tent pissing in'. I may have to hold my nose, on occasion, but my vote will be straight "D".
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)ColesCountyDem
(6,944 posts)limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Forces enabled by the Democratic Party, at least its leadership.
Maybe once it has, you might change your mind and join the chorus of the angry and disenchanted.
It's cool to be angry at the Democrats for them helping to flush America down the toilet.
Not all Democrats, but the party leadership certainly.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)phenomenon is to punch these Republican operatives straight in the mouth.
That's what I've been doing and will continue to do.
lamp_shade
(15,430 posts)toby jo
(1,269 posts)But.... we won. And we'll win again. We're on the right path, we're pulling the principles.
SleeplessinSoCal
(10,384 posts)Democrats had a clear and present danger - A Republican President.
Since then though we're experiencing what was bound to happen as it does in every 2nd term presidency. It keeps me away and unhappy with the places to brainstorm defeating radical right wing agendas which have the support of those I see as a real threat to democracy - wealthy sociopaths like the Koch Brothers and the NRA.
watoos
(7,142 posts)but in the short time I have been here, I noticed that the Snowden issue has been one big divisive issue here.
Options that have been put forth, just to simplify the issue, are, is Snowden a whistleblower or a traitor, or, it's not about Snowden, it's about our 4th Amendment rights.
I have seen very little discussion about a 3rd option. Snowden worked for a subsidiary of the Carlyle Group. What if the main goal of Snowden's release of information was simply to make Pres Obama look bad, and, to turn Democrats against him? People in the Carlyle Group may have known that after Snowden's revelations, nothing was going to change in the NSA or CIA.
Let's look at the House vote to actually do something. More Democrats voted stop the surveillance than Republicans, even with the block of Libertarians in the Republican House. There has been no discussion that I have seen as to why the House Republicans suddenly voted against the Constitution and for President Obama. Doesn't that fact alone give anyone reason to ponder why? As I said before, if the goal of Snowden, with the backing of the Carlyle Group was simply to make Pres Obama look bad, the mission was a success.
Even with the close House vote, I still believe that it will be business as usual with the NSA, DHS, and CIA, and the only thing accomplished will be a battered President.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I think Snowden has gone way over the line into giving secrets to foreign countries and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law; I also would like to see the repeal of much of the Patriot Act, including the part that allows for telephone metadata collection.
DonRedwood
(4,359 posts)Very glad to have you here!
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)
- We're waking up. To truth. Recognizing it, is what can bring us together.
K&R
pwb
(12,579 posts)Claiming to be from very liberal states, posting from sunrise to sunset, always quick to defend their posts with sarcasm and nastiness.
I consider these people to be either paid trolls or they are on the extreme fringe of the Democratic party.
I would like to see a board with only people with under say, 5000 posts. In my opinion they are the grass roots of Democratic Underground and the Democratic party..
I am not writing about all high count posters but there are some who I am suspect of. You know who they are....
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)In a congressional hearing we learned that they collect vast amounts of metadata on vast amounts of people -- contacts of contacts of contacts, etc.
The other stories other than gun control have not divided DUers at all
DonRedwood
(4,359 posts)Uh....they are going to collect data from everyone. That's what DU was crying then....but FOX makes it Obama's deal and suddenly even DU is frothing at the mouth. OVer something we all were saying was going to or was happening.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Bad news IS the news. "Everything went well today" is not a news story nor much of a source of discussion. That's a journalistic maxim, and it pretty much applies to public discussion in general.
Likewise, "I sure agree with everything our party / President / possible future candidates are doing" is not much of a conversation starter.
Not to mention impossible. Take the recent failed vote to limit the power of the NSA. Supported by more Democrats than Republicans, but opposed by some Democrats, many Republicans, and the White House. Which side of that discussion is being divisive?
I don't think Dems arguing with Dems about what Dems and progressives in general ought to be doing or not doing or electing or not electing has the overall affect of causing "despair" and helping Republicans.
I have heard that line of reasoning, but it always seems to come from a compact group with the monolithic view of politics: "Vote for our team, then shut up or voice unqualified support, please."
Those people are wrong, frankly, and we'd be a weaker group if that view prevailed. Progressives and Dems are not the blindly "angry" rightwingers you mentioned, and the fact we're not easily unified is part of what ... unifies us, in the end. If we're doing it right, we figure things out from the bottom up to the leadership, not the other way 'round. That's for Republicans.
Lefties think critically and are inherently disrespectful of authority. We don't fall in line and simply enthuse about how correct we all are about everything. We disagree. We complain. We agitate. We are suspicious of calls for loyalty. Sometimes it gets messy. Sometimes it gets (metaphorically) bloody.
That's a good thing. And we can handle it.
Hissyspit
(45,790 posts)pitchforx
(49 posts)i'm pissed that O didn't close Guantanamo
i'm pissed that he didn't open up Cuba
i'm pissed that he hasn't ended the drug war, been tougher on Chinese trade, that he hasn't stood up for unions and jailed bankers,
But the reason I am a Democrat and support Obama is because I could never vote for a reactionary, right wing, racist, anti-science, anti gay, anti choice, anti immigration, warmongering Republican, and that includes them all.
I am old enough (canvassed for Gene McCarthy), to know that THAT is the alternative to working for, and supporting Democrats. Even if it means holding your nose at times.
Really, I don't like the idea of drones and NSA "metadata" collection, but America has not forgotten 9|11. It is the Red Scare of the 21st century. Any politician who wants to get elected has to remember it as well. Dismantling some piece of security apparatus that is making some citizens feel "safe" has always been a very tough sell. Probably ever since the Trojans opened the gate.
I don't like the drone program, but if there are legitimate threats left out there, and who among us really knows, then drones are better than "Shock and Awe". Better than throwing away American kids in some Middle East deathtrap.
Republican Presidents would have troops in Libya and Syria by now. We'd still be manning checkpoints in Iraq. I know. I've seen them in action.
I'm glad that Obama got rid of DADT, restored middle class tax cuts, appointed some reasonable Supreme Court justices, killed Bin Laden, fought for marriage equality, speaks honestly about race, got out of Iraq, is getting out of Afghanistan, and fights for immigrants rights. I wish he were more forceful and effective, but Republicans are making everything as difficult as possible for him, especially on the economy and economic in equality issues.
So, like the Stones say, "you're not the only one with mixed emotions". But look at the alternative, if you don't vote for Democrats in America in the 21st century Republicans win.
That's how we got war in Iraq, Scalia, and the '08 meltdown.
Sometimes I hate Democrats, but voting Republican is not in my DNA.
lamp_shade
(15,430 posts)emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Not after seeing what our joke of a public school system has put my son through. We need to restore our public school system and that is just one isue that isn't even on the radar for democrats. In fact defunding education is one issue republicans and democrats seem to agree on. Living wages doesn't seem to be on their radar either. No, I just can't do it anymore.
pitchforx
(49 posts)we need better candidates, at all levels. But in large parts of the country, people that think like you and I have zero chance of winning elections. The real political world is a lot of compromise and a portion of tolerance. It is forever a struggle and progress is painfully slow. Meanwhile we have a choice- people who believe in a woman's right to choose, gay rights, evolution, and immigration, and people who don't. Reality is, that if you don't vote for Democrats you get more Scalias running the country.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)do nothing. I will only vote for liberal candadites from now on. At the very least I can say I did everything I could for my son.
DonRedwood
(4,359 posts):0)
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Why can't the worshippers get this through their heads?
What pisses me off is when DEMS that I DO vote for either act like Republicans, or don't fight against them
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)We know it. It's the one thing that we all agree on. 99.9% of those here will never vote for a Republican.
So we can posts lots and lots of OPs pointing out just how much Republicans suck monkey balls. And we do, and we get justifiably enraged at their fucking disgusting antics.
But it does no good. We aren't going to influence Republicans, and we aren't going to get them to stop sucking monkey balls. They don't care.
But the D's that we voted for? They're supposed to care. So when we see them failing to act like Liberals, when we in fact see them adopting Republican issues, we complain. They're supposed to be on our side, they aren't supposed to be proposing Heritage Foundation approved plans. We hope that, unlike Republicans, we might influence them to act like Liberals. Silence is a form of acquiescence, so instead we try to hold their feet to the fire, just as they asked us to.
questionseverything
(11,703 posts)plus 1
DonRedwood
(4,359 posts)We can be cranky, but this is a great place to learn and discuss. I hope you enjoy your DU time.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)
Sid
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)who do you complain most often to when the need arises-- your obnoxious, non-supportive, etc, neighbors you have that expectation from, or your family and friends who as those closest and who have the most invested in you, you have an expectation to listen to legitimate grievances whether they agree or not?
It's just silly if not stupid to think that this kinda discord requires some orchestrated plan on the part of rightwingers to "divide and conquer" when the complaints originate and are often widely agreed to by so many what, "faux dems/lefties".
And some of us grow weary of these kinda thinly veiled, wordy insults that don't differ substantively from the "ROMNEYITE!", "YOU"RE TRYING TO THROW THE ELECTION!", etc, etc, etc BS we read before the last election. I much prefer the namecalling, etc, over the pathetic highbrow efforts that convey the same damn thing, but make the author feel like they're somehow better than that.
"Steal" the election how in a way that is even remotely connected to complaining?
The fear of rightwingnuttery is why BHO was reelected and the senate stayed in our hands, and it is largely "rightwing" BS outta the dems that gets complained about. The exploitation of that fear is why the dems can keep winning while DC collectively marches rightward. That was the whole point/goal behind the formation of the Pee Party
Maybe you think the rest of us should be more accepting and tolerant of the rightwing pathogen coursing through the dem political veins to the extent that it does these days, because that's exactly what the kinda silence your kind seem to think is in order will maintain. Us oldtimers who have watched the disease grow with many a deleterious effect for a long time now, think otherwise, and are gonna continue saying so.
Deal with it
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)It wasn't as enthusiastically present under Bush, but there was plenty of infighting then, too.
That sort of thing happens when there's a large political forum with a large population of True Believers Who Don't All Agree With Each Other. That sort of thing doesn't automatically have to be Republican spies, not when there's probably a good ten thousand or so people regularly reading and posting, on top of the far larger crowd who are more sporadic.
Skittles
(170,506 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)I am probably going to be doing a lot of waiting, but that is the reason I am still on this website. I have been a democrat for 19 years. I have voted democrat in every election for 19 years, but I will not do that anymore. I will vote democrat when I can, but will not just vote the party line anymore. I need someone who will fight for campaign finance reform, a living wage, repealing Citizens United, and restoring funding to public education. When that candadite shows up I will vote for them.
chowder66
(12,070 posts)One problem is that when you have too many angry and negative comments "holding those accountable" ....then you lose "The WHY" people want to hold those accountable in the first place. And on the flipside, those who are upset should be allowed to express themselves and be heard without getting battered. In this case Both Sides Do It.
If someone isn't that familiar with DU then one would wonder why do Du'ers even support Democrats? Looks like they vote against their own interests! Or Democrats can't even hold their own officials accountable. It's okay to support the party AND not support specifics but it's not okay to act like both don't count unless you have forgotten why you are part of the party. Why engage if there is no value?
Balance, perspective and remembering "The Why" or the Value is important.
Some threads are full of superlatives that are used so much that superlative has lost some meaning and impact. EVERYTHING is THIS or it's COMPLETELY that or EVERYONE is "something".
I find I have to dig for the OP's or responses that are part of "The WHY" anymore. I don't have to dig for the "Let's hold something accountable" threads at all. I read many of both. I learn a lot here at DU and I appreciate that but I also feel like I have to work a little bit harder to sort through the emotional OP's and the right fighters to find an understanding that I feel comfortable with. I'm okay with that....sometimes. Other times I am pretty over it. If we can't find a way to balance the arguments, to discuss without losing nuance, then how the hell do we expect those on the Hill to do it?
We do need to examine the issues, we do need to vent every now and then and we do need to figure out what WE should do to help our party make progress. In other words, we need to hold ourselves accountable too and remember WHY we do it.
The end,
Sally SmartAss, 6th grade
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)The NSA story has not fallen apart in the slightest, and Weiner's situation is 100% self inflicted and he's a repeat offender for example. Really, a lot of so called anti-Democratic sentiment you're seeing is caused by progressives who have been completely consistent in their views clashing with party loyalist.
G_j
(40,562 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 25, 2013, 06:46 PM - Edit history (1)
I'm not sure if I follow..
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)with the majority of Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives. To do other wise is not just treason against our liberal values. It is treason against the tradition of liberal Western democracy and it is treason against the United States of America
randome
(34,845 posts)...than accusing DUers of being traitors! Good grief!
"The surveillance state" -as if everyone in the world is in agreement with you about what that means. Get this, most people don't consider making copies of metadata to be the same thing as a 'surveillance state'.
Yes, DonRedwood, anger. And paranoia. And deep dissatisfaction with things that I suspect have nothing to do with Congress or the President.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)and everyone who believes in the tradition of liberal western democracy - If Bush was still President no one would be arguing otherwise.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)if you posted a thread about Pelosi, the responses would be approximately 100% vitriolic.
There would be posted over and over again polls about who should replace Reid as majority leader. Totally pointless, devoid of content. If one was to call that trolling, they'd have a good point. But no one did, it was just the way DU was.
Since Obama, it's totally different. For one thing, Joe Biden has suddenly become lovable.
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)thank you for your post.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Amendments. I like all accused to have lawyers and fair trials and no involvement of the POTUS.
I could go on.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts) L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
D23MIURG23
(3,138 posts)Democrats have always faced criticism on this site; they just get less of it when they are running against some troglodyte investment banker or ralph reed cultist. On the off years some of us like to evaluate them on their own merits.
joshguitar
(168 posts)Meh. I've been lurking here for years and gave up posting for the most part. People misconstrue others wishing the democratic party were as heroic as well all wish.
That's really the only story.
Cha
(317,976 posts)first term.. I left for two years because it was so anti-Obama. "Big Bad evil Obamacare!!11" It was all new to me then.. now I know it means nothing.
President Obama will continue to do what he can in the years he has left in office.. with those who are with him, invested in the long haul.. in spite of those who render themselves impotent by spitting their venom on him everyday.
zentrum
(9,870 posts)The party is becoming more and more Republican in its economic policies. It was a Democratic President who first talked about changing Social Security. It is a Democratic President who has become more lethal to protection of privacy than Bush or Cheney.
We'll be party to our ruination if we stay silent out of some kind of tribal loyalty.
There are days when I feel I haven't left the Democratic party--they've left me.
Besides, read Chris Hedges analysis about the importance of pressure and criticism from the left. It keeps the center more centered and not drifting ever more right, pulled by the hard right. A very progressive left at the back of the liberal center is vital.
We critics are doing a necessary job.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... the Democrats being spineless, capitulating, and cutting our legs out from under us has NOTHING to do with how angry we are. We're just a bunch of gullible dumbasses being duped by the political geniuses of Teapublican party.
Stupid, stupid us.
KG
(28,793 posts)
quakerboy
(14,807 posts)step into a bar fight or a domestic disturbance?
Noone can push your buttons like family. Especially when there is a perception of betrayal. Generally speaking you expect your enemies to be dicks, you expect your opponents to oppose you vociferously. You dont expect to have your brother stab you in the back, you dont expect your mom to be the one to steal from you.
Plus we have differing positions represented. We have "I support the democrat, right or wrong". We have "I support democratic ideals, no matter who agrees or disagrees". We have "Obama is the bestist". We have an influx of "gunz are the bestist". and a dozen other factions.
When it was Bush in power, we were all united. every one of those groups could in good conscience oppose virtually every thing about the Bush presidency. But with Obama in power, our aims diverge. So we squabble like siblings, and real trolls sneak in in the meanwhile. The only thing that seems to bring us together is when one of the Paulites sneaks in to try and poach support, and that unity only lasts as long as it takes to spank them soundly and send them crying upstairs to mommy.
pam4water
(2,916 posts)Republicans these day. The soon you figure that out the soon we can all get around to fixing the problems America has these day
truegrit44
(332 posts)The lounge is more laid back and keeps my anger with it to a minimum.........
Iwillnevergiveup
(9,298 posts)Citizens United has helped trump any progressive champions on the horizon. Notable exceptions: Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Alan Grayson. There are others, of course, but these folks are in the news a lot.
Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)Sometimes I feel like I'm on FR...same kind of comments. Sometimes I've wanted to post something positive about someone but didn't because I'd get a heap of flax some so many posters. I often feel that many DUers were the enemy. This site seems like it's just a site to criticize Democrats and I actually thought of leaving...but it's a hard thing to do when you get addicted. I hope after the next primary we can stop the Dem bashing.
It's a good thing Hillary hasn't thrown her hat in the ring as this place will turn into a zoo when she does. Maybe I'll have to leave for awhile as I did for a couple years after the last election.
I do wish we could be more agreeable. Seems like every time someone post something a pack of wolves pounces...so yes I agree with you Don.
mick063
(2,424 posts)I think President Obama has been a failure. A complete, utter failure. Not based upon blatant obstructionism that is no fault of his own, but based upon an agenda that favors the oligarchs. The centralization of money and power. Based upon compromise with the Republicans, using the well being of his supporters as a bargaining chip.
I also believe:
The Tea Party is obscene with imposing extreme fascist ideology.
The Libertarians want to cut the most needed programs at the expense of maintaining the least needed programs.
ALEC's debilitating influence must take priority in any political debate.
Economic disparity is on the verge of destroying our nation's sovereignty, or at a minimum, changing it beyond recognition.
NSA blanket surveillance may be the least "bang for the buck" program in Washington.
The Affordable Health care Act is a "watered down" Heritage Foundation fantasy.
The Republican Party retains diminishing power using unscrupulous methods. Methods that cannot stand the test of time.
In other words, people are arguing that our best option is failure. People are defending failure. People are cheering failure. Because it is the best option we have. Lesser failure as opposed to greater failure.
A nation of working poor is better than a great depression. I am supposed to be grateful for that. It is better that just the working class is poor as opposed to everybody being poor.
Historic NY
(39,878 posts)pmorlan1
(2,096 posts)After 9/11 our politicians tried to emulate Republicans so they would look tough on terror. Sadly, once Obama was elected they continued to emulate Republicans and even outdo what the Republicans wished they could have done in some areas. You are seeing more criticism because they deserve it. But yesterday a majority of Dems in the House pushed back against the Democratic House leadership and the President by voting against the surveillance state. I know I applauded them. When they act like Republicans, however, they won't get any cheers from me.
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)mine is...obama said he wanted to unite but the people he has surrounded himself with do not. he said wanted to move the country forward and the people he has chosen wants the status quo.
the people who run the party machine have chased the republicans to the right. the democratic party of today is the republican party of eisenhower.
at this time the democratic party has no viable candidate for 16.
intheflow
(30,108 posts)Does that mean the president's not a good Democrat?
bobduca
(1,763 posts)Everyone knows that DU is all about pretending to be a DNC Public Relations Flack and regurgitating talking points!
Amonester
(11,541 posts)the entire country. I mean, other than the teaRorists and the laRouchists, I don't hear most people are bashing Obama as much as I read here.
Firebrand Gary
(5,044 posts)There is most certainly a noticeable change in tone that I have picked up on lately. As long as I've been a reader on DU (about 10 years) and an OP (for about 5 years), i've definitely noticed a change in the criticism. I too have seen post that do not fall on the side of constructive criticism, some fall on the side of hurting, damaging, flogging the democratic party, creating an atmosphere of apathy.
Thank your for calling this out, Don. We need total unity going into 2014.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)If it's just cheer leading and uncritical stenography you want, I'm confident that you can find DNC and DLC press releases on their websites.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)despite the fact that we are critical here of Dems we perceive to be selling out Democratic Party principles. Though I didn't post in that thread directly, I read your OP regarding your trip to the Midwest with your hubby, and it was incredibly poignant and important for people to hear. I hope you'll stick around and help us make this place a better one. DU definitely goes through phases where sometimes we seem unified and other times pretty fractured, but all-in-all, it's a very good and supportive community.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Is we all long for people to follow the TOS... This would be a good moment to do this...
Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)If I had been the OP I'd have flamed out hours ago and I really respect your ability to keep your responses respectful without backing down...
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)then where do we come off criticizing Republicans.
For instance, Under President Obama foreign diplomacy in the War on Terror, the War on Drugs, and other Wars have been the same, or even more vigorous.
If we criticized the Bush Administration for the wasting of human life in pointless wars that seemed to have been fought to enrich large corporations, how can we applaud our own party for doing the same thing.
The Bush admin was criticized for spying on Americans, so it is not OK for more of the same from the Obama administration.
If it is wrong for Senator Vitter to hire a prostitue to diaper him, spank him, and then screw his brains out; or Governor Sanford to hike the Apalachian trail to Vagina, it is wrong for Weiner to send crouch shots to women by cell phone or Mayor Filner to sexually harass every woman that comes in his sight.
We should applaud Demcrats when they do things right and hammer them when they do thinks wrong. If a Republican does something right, we should do the same thing. (That doesn't happen often, of course.)
I am a Democrat not a partisan, and I think that is true of many of the people here.
nilram
(3,522 posts)This one? I just really don't know what ones you're speaking of.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023342298
I guess I see that as their response to the left, not to their own. Dems are able to see more nuances, generally.
Response to nilram (Reply #289)
nilram This message was self-deleted by its author.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)but that he is part and parcel of the plutonomy/Bush/neocon attempted take-over of the entire country.
It is my job as an American to call BULLSHIT when and where it appears regardless of its source. It is in fact far far worse when it comes from those upon whom we'd rely to promote FDR and Democratic values. It is my job to point to the problems and to attempt to unify everyone against BULLSHIT and toward FDR and democratic values. Because Obama is helping the enemy. Period.
Fuck fox noise. Fuck the Pauls. Fuck Alex Jones. I am an Occupier, because SOMEONE had to call bullshit where it was found. We got beaten and jailed for our trouble, and the economy (read: Plutonomy) is =still exactly the same=, except for continuing gains for the Plutonomy.
Corporate Profits Have Grown By 171 Percent Under Obama -- Highest Rate Since 1900
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/corporate-profits-have-grown-171-percent-under-obama-highest-rate-1900
"Average annual corporate profit growth under Obama is the highest since 1900, whereas profit growth declined during both Bush presidencies. As a share of the economy, corporate profits have never been higher.
Unfortunately, this profit deluge has not been shared by workers, whose wages as a percentage of the economy have fallen to all-time lows. Workers also got dinged by the recent increase in the payroll tax, which was large enough to wipe out a minimum wage increase in some states."
8 Huge Corporate Handouts in the Fiscal Cliff Bill
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/8-huge-corporate-handouts-fiscal-cliff-bill
"Throughout the months of November and December, a steady stream of corporate CEOs flowed in and out of the White House to discuss the impending fiscal cliff. Many of them, such as Lloyd Blankfein of Goldman Sachs, would then publicly come out and talk about how modest increases of tax rates on the wealthy were reasonable in order to deal with the deficit problem. What wasn’t mentioned is what these leaders wanted, which is what’s known as “tax extenders”, or roughly $205B of tax breaks for corporations. With such a banal name, and boring and difficult to read line items in the bill, few political operatives have bothered to pay attention to this part of the bill. But it is critical to understanding what is going on.
5) Subsidies for Goldman Sachs Headquarters – Sec. 328 extends 'tax exempt financing for York Liberty Zone,' which was a program to provide post-9/11 recovery funds. Rather than going to small businesses affected, however, this was, according to Bloomberg, 'little more than a subsidy for fancy Manhattan apartments and office towers for Goldman Sachs and Bank of America Corp.' Michael Bloomberg himself actually thought the program was excessive, so that’s saying something. According to David Cay Johnston’s The Fine Print, Goldman got $1.6 billion in tax free financing for its new massive headquarters through Liberty Bonds."
The Untouchables: How the Obama administration protected Wall Street from prosecutions
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/23/untouchables-wall-street-prosecutions-obama
Yes, Virginia, the Rich Continue to Get Richer: the Top 1% Got 121% of Income Gains Since 2009
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/02/yes-virginia-the-rich-continue-to-get-richer-the-1-got-121-of-income-gains-since-2009.html
U.S. banks in 2012 post highest profits since '06
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/26/us-usa-fdic-earnings-idUSBRE91P0N820130226?utm_source=Daily+Digest&utm_campaign=de8376aab3-DD_2_27_132_27_2013&utm_medium=email#.US5jjkXSlU8.twitter
This Year’s Subsidy to Wall Street = the Amount of This Year’s Sequester Cuts
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/02/this-years-subsidy-to-wall-street-the-amount-of-this-years-sequester-cuts.html#.US_yiFwwnHY.facebook
Don’t Blink, or You’ll Miss Another Bailout
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100466032
America faces more than a dozen deadlines, all caused by billionaires and wealth transfer
http://americablog.com/2013/02/america-faces-more-than-a-dozen-deadlines-all-caused-by-billionaires-and-wealth-transfer.html
Bank Bailout 2: Obama Lets Mortgage Abusers Off the Hook
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/02/09-5
I am okay with NONE of the above, and that only scratches the surface of Obama's collusion with the Plutonomy and doesn't even touch upon the loss of four sections of the Bill of Rights.
1: Domestic terrorism (as defined by the FBI and "patriot act"
against US citizens for peacefully gathering to petition the government with grievance against the economic destruction wrought by banksters and corporations. SHUT UP AND WATCH TV is the message. March and meet hundreds of militarized police. SHUT UP AND GO HOME. 7400+ Occupiers arrested, two brought to within inches of death by militarized police. Force and threat of force against a civilian population for political purposes. And Obama continues to bail out Wall Street and the corps with our tax dollars to this day. Where is the outrage? Then the Supreme Court makes it illegal to protest on their grounds using words directly out of the 1st Amendment. Then Obama signs HR347 which makes it a Federal crime to protest where Secret Service are working (then he gives himself and George Bush lifetime SS protection...smell the trend?)
2: Shaky; under pressure
4: DHS can steal your personal electronics anywhere along the border and up to 100 miles inland =on a hunch=. So much for warrants, courts, reasonability. Zero right to privacy in the Bush/neocon surveillance state. Where is the outrage?
5: It was made legal recently to allow silence in court to be used against you in certain circumstances. Goodbye 5th Amendment.
6: The right to a speedy trial. Have you heard of Obama's NDAA section 1021 which provides for the indefinite detention of US citizens with neither trial nor representation?
Being quiet about the actual theft of the economy and the destruction of our guaranteed freedoms is not the answer!!!
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)But I am surprised it took you this long to figure out what this site is all about.
Yes, once upon a time, it was a site for Democrats to speak their minds. It has become, sadly, a site where RW and Libertarian trolls are now free to spew their anti-Democratic vitriol under the guise of "concerned", "dismayed", and "disappointed" Dems. And, even more sadly, these trolls have been embraced by the perpetually-pissed-off-no-matter-who's-in-office shit-disturbers.
If I were "stumbling across DU for the first time", the "Should Obama be Impeached" ads would be enough to tell me that this is NOT the Democratic-supporting website it claims to be.
And could that fact BE more obvious?
Number23
(24,544 posts)Thank you for noticing this. But I do have to ask -- WHAT THE HELL TOOK YOU SO LONG TO NOTICE???!
This place has been like this for years. It has been like this since before Obama took office. One of the reasons this place has dropped so much in prestige, page views and quality of membership is the anti-government trolls took over this place a looooong time ago. The crowd that thinks that everything Obama/the US government is done is evil incarnate and that only negative stories about the man -- no matter how utterly and completely full of shit they are -- are the only things that belong on this web site.
Two threads recently sum up the new and "improved" DU. There was a post recently praising the president's race speech and posters in that thread demanded that the OP of that thread "take it to the BOG" as if the very SIGHT of positive, pro-Democrat, pro-Obama news had no place in GD.
Another thread was posted a few months ago and one of the biggest anti-Dem posters on this board was crowing about how great DU was now. The haters have staked their claim on this place and honestly believe that they have won. Those two comments/threads should tell you everything you need to know about DU now. And it's no wonder that so many people, good Democrats, have left.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)The "good Democrats" have, for the most part, left the DU building.
Aren't those "Should Obama be Impeached?" ads enough to tell everyone where this site's loyalties lie?
The fact that anyone who DARES support this Democratic president on this Democratic- supporting website are told to keep their comments restricted to the free-speech-zone BOG says it all.
"There was a post recently praising the president's race speech and posters in that thread demanded that the OP of that thread "take it to the BOG" as if the very SIGHT of positive, pro-Democrat, pro-Obama news had no place in GD."
Well, doesn't THAT say it all?
Number23
(24,544 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 26, 2013, 04:11 AM - Edit history (1)
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)The "good Democrats" have, for the most part, left the DU building.
Aren't those "Should Obama be Impeached?" ads enough to tell everyone where this site's loyalties lie?
The fact that anyone who DARES support this Democratic president on this Democratic- supporting website are told to keep their comments restricted to the free-speech-zone of the BOG says it all.
"There was a post recently praising the president's race speech and posters in that thread demanded that the OP of that thread "take it to the BOG" as if the very SIGHT of positive, pro-Democrat, pro-Obama news had no place in GD."
Well, doesn't THAT say it all?
Number23
(24,544 posts)Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)
VOX
(22,976 posts)In spades.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)are going nuts:
Or these two Paulbot kooks working to promote their right-wing agenda:
The NSA's metastasised intelligence-industrial complex is ripe for abuse
Where oversight and accountability have failed, Snowden's leaks have opened up a vital public debate on our rights and privacy
by Valerie Plame Wilson and Joe Wilson
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 23 June 2013 13.00 BST
Let's be absolutely clear about the news that the NSA collects massive amounts of information on US citizens – from emails, to telephone calls, to videos, under the Prism program and other Fisa court orders: this story has nothing to do with Edward Snowden. As interesting as his flight to Hong Kong might be, the pole-dancing girlfriend, and interviews from undisclosed locations, his fate is just a sideshow to the essential issues of national security versus constitutional guarantees of privacy, which his disclosures have surfaced in sharp relief.
Snowden will be hunted relentlessly and, when finally found, with glee, brought back to the US in handcuffs and severely punished. (If Private Bradley Manning's obscene conditions while incarcerated are any indication, it won't be pleasant for Snowden either, even while awaiting trial.) Snowden has already been the object of scorn and derision from the Washington establishment and mainstream media, but, once again, the focus is misplaced on the transiently shiny object. The relevant issue should be: what exactly is the US government doing in the people's name to "keep us safe" from terrorists?
We are now dealing with a vast intelligence-industrial complex that is largely unaccountable to its citizens. This alarming, unchecked growth of the intelligence sector and the increasingly heavy reliance on subcontractors to carry out core intelligence tasks – now estimated to account for approximately 60% of the intelligence budget – have intensified since the 9/11 attacks and what was, arguably, our regrettable over-reaction to them.
Today, the intelligence sector is so immense that no one person can manage, or even comprehend, its reach. When an operation in the field goes south, who would we prefer to try and correct the damage: a government employee whose loyalty belongs to his country (despite a modest salary), or the subcontractor who wants to ensure that his much fatter paycheck keeps coming? - Valerie Plame Wilson and Joe Wilson
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/23/nsa-intelligence-industrial-complex-abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now with Paulbot Dem Congressman John Conyers joining forces with the full fledged Republican Paulbots - we seem to have a Paulbot majority in the Democratic Caucus of the U.S. House of Representatives --- no wonder the nuts on this site are all cracking:
FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 412
H R 2397 RECORDED VOTE 24-Jul-2013 6:51 PM
AUTHOR(S): Amash of Michigan Amendment No. 100
QUESTION: On Agreeing to the Amendment
Party Affiliation----Ayes----Noes----NV
Republican-----------94-----134-----6
Democratic----------111------83-----6
Independent
TOTALS-------------205-----217----12
okaawhatever
(9,565 posts)I absolutely blame the site administrators. One of the causes for blocking a post is if the comments say that a person "doesn't vote Democrat" well, there are several here who openly admit not voting dem and nothing is done. I don't know the last time i saw the owners log on here. Not only are the posts negative, it's clear that the intention is to take over the site and not to participate. One look at the ridiculous number of anti NSA threads told you something was going on. A look at almost all other sites had a certain number of stories. that number would ebb and flow with the revelations of the case. Here the same people were repeating the same threads daily ad nauseum. They were artificially inflating the importance of it and hijacking the pages. It wasn't a natural number of posts. Even five times the number one would find on other news/discussion sites may have been normal. there were over ten times as many threads. A few readers have caught folks from the Ron and Rand Paul websites talking about posting things here, inviting folks to come over here and troll, etc.
There are also a number of folks from outside the country. While they seem to have been around a while, their political views are anti-American and anti-Obama.
I don't come here every day like I used to. I will probably look over once a week and see if the admins kick the trolls off. If not, i'll move on as there are too many good sites and too much going on politically now to not be involved with those wanting to move the cause forward.
mfcorey1
(11,134 posts)the nail on the head. BTW, they are going to rename you as an APOLOGIST: the new buzz word for anyone here who still supports the President and realize that even though he is not perfect, he is trying to move things for the underserved. There are still a few of us here who refuse to join in our own demise.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)on every issue, 100% of the time.
Dissenting viewpoints is how we learn, evolve.
There are a lot of very smart people here. Read what they have to say - you may learn something new.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)the same, they're deeply entrenched trolls! I know one with over 80,000 posts! Oh sure they'll post something liberal once in awhile, but most of their posts are anti government this, anti government that. Obama spying on us, etc etc.
It's getting old, and what amazes me is they have followers in here that will fight for them. Are they trolls too?
4bucksagallon
(975 posts)I am noticing the ones I am thinking of missing. They are probably trying to get this hidden. Or will twist your words and start another post condemning you. It does happen. LOL!
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)The reason you are seeing this discord is because the Democrats are pulling further and further away from progressive US values and simply consolidating power, ignoring the folks who elected them and kowtowing to their corporate masters. Some of us recognize it and are unhappy while others think it is better to just look at the ceiling and think of the queen.
The coming election is the Democrats to lose.
Broward
(1,976 posts)many DU members have marched in lockstep with Obama further and further to the right.
BumRushDaShow
(167,851 posts)But I have noticed posters who have marched so far to the left that they have circled around to join the rightwing libertarian loons by wearing matching tinfoil hats, setting up perimeters against fictional drones, and dodging Agent Mike, who they know for a fact will haul them off to a FEMA camp, because the end times are here.
Broward
(1,976 posts)Bachmann.
BumRushDaShow
(167,851 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)since they're now Obama policies.
October
(3,363 posts)/nt
SnowCritter
(931 posts)Actually, I blame any cell phone technology that incorporated a camera into a cell phone. Would J.F.K. have sent photos of his privates to other women? Would a younger Newt Gingrich have sent pictures of his "junk" to his "girlfriends"? How about Helen Chenoweth? It was said of Helen (by an Idaho GOP political operative) that she "was living proof that you could f*ck your brains out".
OK, seriously, it's not technology's fault. I don't expect my elected officials to be perfect, but I do expect them to put a bit more thought into how their words and actions are perceived. People who live public lives need to pay extra attention to their behavior because cameras are everywhere these days.
lillypaddle
(9,606 posts)my time at DU has been very limited for about the last 6 months. I agree with you 100%.
liberal N proud
(61,185 posts)And there is a huge anti Obama delegation that has set up camp here.
I have almost stopped using DU several times because of the environment and the personal attacks that have been left to stand by the jury system.
Broward
(1,976 posts)and his supporters by advocating for policies that were anathema to the Democratic Party not that long ago.
BumRushDaShow
(167,851 posts)I'd go with Lennon. Many here need to take heed.
liberal N proud
(61,185 posts)Not sure what your point is here except to attack the observation of a long time poster vs someone who has less than 100 posts.
Broward
(1,976 posts)otherwise if you please.
MyNameGoesHere
(7,638 posts)If memory serves me, all of these bad representatives have been enabled by us. We agree over and over again to accept the lesser of two evils. Then when we elect the less evil one we are shocked that they suck. Every election same old crud. Go out and vote, hold your nose and vote. Or let's enable these cretins some more.
I for one refuse to vote until we have people that truly represent me. I have as much right and duty to vote as I do to not cast a vote. Maybe even more so Because I will not be one of the enablers. Can you imagine the next election if everyone said enough? A turnout of 1 or 2 %? Now that is a message.
TBF
(36,178 posts)this is nothing.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Scorched earth. I have to say that the feminists did not blame all of the vitriol on sexism, the way the BOGers blame it all on racism.
When Dems fight against the Republicans, they are justifiably heaped with praise. When they go along with them, or cower and capitulate, they get torched. It's not very complicated.
TBF
(36,178 posts)I joined in early 2008 when I got involved campaigning for Obama locally. I suspect 2016 will be a primary war as well.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)an ACTUAL troll who was allowed for some reason to rack up thousands of posts accusing John Kerry of ridiculous conspiracy theories, while he was our party's nominee against Bush in 2004.
He was only banned when he outed himself as a troll. How he survived I don't know, he appears to have been really good at working the system, for example sucking up to Will Pitt and Skinner.
He wasn't the only one either. There was a little group of trolls that might have been the same person, their posts amounted to propaganda, like posting photoshops of dems in "pink tutus", the same photoshops that appeared on right-wing sites. No substantive criticisms, just content-free bashing.
And again, they were allowed to rack up thousands of posts and not many people seemed to mind.
DU today is NOTHING like what it used to be, but it is exactly the opposite of what you are saying.
emulatorloo
(46,153 posts)election night '04. I bring it up occasionally but it almost seems to have been erased from the DU memory banks.
byronius
(7,946 posts)Exactly. Intelligent disagreement is one thing. Hyperbolic attacks on the last bastion left is another.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)DissidentVoice
(813 posts)I don't want them to be "Third Way."
I don't want them to be "Republican-lite."
I am a grandson of a man who was a longtime UAW member, and steward for many of those years. He had a full-size portrait of FDR on his living room wall. He was a beneficiary of the WPA, who put him to honest work, largely on infrastructure. I'd bet that several of the bridges he helped build in central Indiana are still there. After that, he went to work for Chrysler making engines for military vehicles during WWII. Prior to that, he was making/running "bathtub gin" just to feed his family (my mother, grandmother, aunts and uncles).
To not allow any criticism of the Democratic Party is tantamount to Ronald Reagan's dictum of "thou shalt not speak ill of another Republican." We are individuals, and no way think monolithically.
When Bill Clinton (whom I voted for twice) was elected, I was over the moon. After two terms of Reagan and one of Bush Senior, and talk of a permanent Republican Presidency, he seemed like one who would finally reduce the horrors of Reaganomics. However, when he proposed his health care plan I was very dismayed that it wasn't single-payer. Pundits at the time said he was trying to get Republicans on board by keeping the private sector in charge. Well, as we know, they didn't get on board, killed his plan...and worst of all, he rolled over and played dead, and jumped on the anti-"big government" campaign post-1994.
Nonetheless, I believed it when Hillary said there was a "vast right-wing conspiracy" against him. I believed it then and I believe it now. It is no coincidence that Rush Limbaugh's ascendancy to being THE voice of the GOP happened during Clinton's terms.
When Barack Obama (whom I also voted for twice) became President, after being punch-drunk by eight years of George W. Bush, I really did allow myself to hope again. However, Obama has disappointed me with health care (killing the public option), not calling for repeal of the evil Patriot Act (in fact extending it!), not following through with closing Guantanamo Bay and now NSA. He said that "the political will isn't there" to pass single-payer health care. Well, what he DID pass (which is a start, but only just) was done without any Republican support...he made the same mistake as Clinton in thinking that if he left the private insurance industry in charge, it would mollify the GOP.
I am by no means "anti-Dem." However, I am firmly anti-Democratic Leadership Council. That organisation poisoned the Democratic Party by making it as "me-too Republican" as they could without actually becoming Republicans.
The Democratic Party of today is much more like the Republican Party of the Jerry Ford era. What's more, they seem to be scared of their shadow when it comes to the term "liberal." The hell with that. I am an unapologetic Democratic Socialist, much more akin to FDR and Bernie Sanders than the bloody DLC.
I doubt that the New Deal would pass Democratic muster today. And that's a damn shame.
EC
(12,287 posts)and for the first time in 10 years I have stopped posting so much and haven't bothered with buying a star. I feel like we've been taken over.
Like all this with Wiener...if he were a repub, would we have been talking about it for 2 weeks? This place is beginning to turn my stomach.
snot
(11,629 posts)I don't think there can be any real dispute that, since I started voting, the party has shifted radically to the right.
This is no accident; it is the result of prolonged efforts in numerous spheres by the money party. They've poured a ton of strategy, talent, and cash into key areas and have gained control of our economy, campaign finance, and 95% of traditional media worldwide, and are rapidly gaining control of all levels of education. Add in a few other trends and the picture's pretty darn dire.
Note also that we've already spend several decades supporting our Dem leaders despite the compromises they told us they had to make -- through NAFTA, the repeal of Glass-Steagall, the loosening of restrictions on media consolidation, etc. I for one never particularly squawked through any of that.
Now we're living with the accumulating results. Our economy has literally been looted; millions have been impoverished, protections for labor, the environment, children and the elderly have been eviscerated, etc. I am far worse off than my parents were, despite having worked as hard or harder and in a supposedly recession-proof profession and having lived at least as parsimoniously.
And yeah, I've started to notice, and to put two and two together: government by a two-party system of bat-shit crazy Republican and Republican-lite is not working for me.
We can't get our old Dem Party back if we don't criticize Dems when they betray our interests. If we want our party back, we're going to have to squawk.
And note further: I think our party has more credibility with waverers if we consistently stand up for the people and our principles, rather than seeming blindly loyal to "our side" regardless of what its leaders do.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)All of the horrors of voting for Palin or Willard are still coming true - maybe a little slower than they would have, but still happening. This leads the indies and undecideds and new voters and the "who cares?" crowd to stay home. It happened in 2010 and will happen again next year.
JohnnyRingo
(20,711 posts)That's why they come back day after day to post the same flame bait. They find an opinion on Obama or the party in general that attracts a lot of attention, both supportive and negative, then they rephrase the argument as often as possible.
You'd think once they made their point about Obama's drone program or the NSA, they'd move on, but instead they post their indignation on at least a weekly basis in terms meant to attract a large number of repiles.
On edit, this is the same desire for attention that drives Glenn Beck and Ann Coulter to make purposefully absurd statements. To some, being ignored is deflating to the ego.
Rebellious Republican
(5,029 posts)Mispellings, bad grammer and all...
I came to DU in 2002, not very long after their initial start up. I was a registered republican when I came here. However evan way back then I saw what was happening to the GOP. I ran across this site bye accendent, and just read posts for a while before joining. I liked what I was reading, it seemed to be more in line with what I felt was right and beliefs in my heart. I started posting, not in a derogatory way, I had questions. Many of the old timers patiently answered my questions. They schooled me in the ways of DU etiquette. I became a blue dog democrat because of their wise, intuitive and nurturing ways. I actually celebrated my switch to Democrat by re registering as a Democrat here on DU. I can name many names that I do not see posting often here now. 
, I still get flamed because of the handle, which when DU II came around we were offered amnesty and could change our handles, I did not. I chose to keep it for my own reasons. Thats OK with me, I want people to understand that they should not judge others by a label. I am now the most rabid blue dog, liberal former ex-republican that you will ever meet. I am a middle aged white southern decorated and disabled veteran F150 pick up truck driven male. If you were to meet me in person and judge me on appearances, I would fit what many of the NEW DU'ers would call a racist southern republican. They are very wrong and need to take a look at their own biased opinions based on pop culture on the media these days.
> >
> > I would like to point out that DU has become a force to be reckoned with and has been quoted on the MSM. I believe their are trolls from the other side that understand how important DU has become over the years. I believe the other side has operatives here that have learned that in order to disrupt our communitty, they need to be stealthy. Get their posts numbers up and post non flame yet purely disruptive threads, to divide us.
Thanks DR for your advice! 
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)political issues. Thanks for posting.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Glad you stayed.,
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)operatives here which do little more than disrupt our community, answer post like one of the replies you have received, nothing to add to our Democrat community. I am glad you have found there are a lot of real Democrats here and what we really stand.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Born in the dark days of the Bush Administration, DU was for underdogs who congratulated each other for being better, with promises of what we'd do if our party was ever in power again. "Democratic Overlords" was a joke that became cliche as President Obama's election looked more and more likely.
We aren't quite as underdoggy nowadays, and some members of our party have real national power and influence. We've long since begun to disagree vehemently as to how that pow should best be used.
That's all. We haven't become worse people, but the "free thought" isn't as free anymore--now Democratic policies have more consequence. Less lockstep is good; it's more small-d democratic, in fact.
Our straits have become more desperate, though, as conservative policy has stolen more and more of our health, livelihoods and joy. Our leaders' steadfast refusal to work for the enormous changes we need more than ever is what's driving the discourse toward savagery.
People are hurting, and the power to end their pain lies just out of their reach. Be amazed that the site isn't a smoking crater, and learn to love the disunity you see, is my advice.
RavensChick
(3,123 posts)"Divide them. Make them Angry. Make them despair. And while they are distracted, steal the election."
That's precisely what they want us to do. You're not the only one. I've been seeing the same thing too and it saddens me to think we've gotten to this point.
get the red out
(14,007 posts)That is why I spend much less time around here than I used to.
Response to DonRedwood (Original post)
mother earth This message was self-deleted by its author.