Sen. Ron Wyden On NSA Spying: It's As Bad As Snowden Says

[xchrom]

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/sen-ron-wyden-nsa-spying-its-bad-snowden-says



Editor's note: This is a transcript from a speech given on Tuesday, July 23, at the Center for American Progress in Washington.

When the Patriot Act was last reauthorized, I stood on the floor of the United States Senate and said, “I want to deliver a warning this afternoon. When the American people find out how their government has interpreted the Patriot Act, they are going to be stunned and they are going to be angry.”

From my position on the Senate Intelligence Committee, I had seen government activities conducted under the umbrella of the Patriot Act that I knew would astonish most Americans. At the time, Senate rules about classified information barred me from giving any specifics of what I’d seen except to describe it as "secret law"—a secret interpretation of the Patriot Act, issued by a secret court, that authorizes secret surveillance programs; programs that I and colleagues think go far beyond the intent of the statute.

If that is not enough to give you pause, then consider that not only were the existence of and the legal justification for these programs kept completely secret from the American people, senior officials from across the government were making statements to the public about domestic surveillance that were clearly misleading and at times simply false. Senator Mark Udall and I tried again and again to get the executive branch to be straight with the public, but under the classification rules observed by the Senate we are not even allowed to tap the truth out in Morse code ­ and we tried just about everything else we could think of to warn the American people. But as I’ve said before, one way or another, the truth always wins out.

Edward Snowden’s Revelations

Last month, disclosures made by an NSA contractor lit the surveillance world on fire. Several provisions of secret law were no longer secret and the American people were finally able to see some of the things I’ve been raising the alarm about for years. And when they did, boy were they stunned, and boy, are they angry.

[idwiyo]

1. K&R

[chimpymustgo]

7. "Senator Mark Udall and I tried again and again to get the executive branch to be straight..."

-edit-

Senator Mark Udall and I tried again and again to get the executive branch to be straight with the public, but under the classification rules observed by the Senate we are not even allowed to tap the truth out in Morse code ­ and we tried just about everything else we could think of to warn the American people. But as I’ve said before, one way or another, the truth always wins out.

-edit-

K&R

[elehhhhna]

110. fuck that they should have blown the whistle

loooooooooooong ago, during the Bush Admin, who started this shit BEFORE 9/11.

[bread_and_roses]

2. K&R (n/t)

[cantbeserious]

3. Kick And Recommend

eom

[MNBrewer]

4. That racist, Obama-hater!!!

[East Coast Pirate]

5. Not only that,

Don Redwood says none of it is true. What does Ron Wyden know anyway?

[randome]

9. If Congress wants to reign them in, they should do so.

Not make pontificating speeches.

The world was hardly 'set on fire' by Snowden's ridiculous PowerPoint slides.

This article reads like one of Greenwald's self-serving endeavors: "Any day now, we're going to see really, REALLY bad shit, I promise!"

I'm sick of people warning us. They should put up or shut up.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[Civilization2]

15. So the Democratic senator from Oregon is now Snowdon worshiping Grennwaldite, and should be ignored?

What will it take for you to stop your crusade against reality. The surveillance/data­mining being perpetrated by the government currently is egregious, illegal, and VERY dangerous, why do you spend so much time defending it? You convince only yourself BTW.

from the article;
"At this point, a little bit of history might be helpful. I joined the Senate Intelligence Committee in January 2001, just before 9/11. Like most senators I voted for the original Patriot Act, in part because I was reassured that it had an expiration date that would force Congress to come back and consider these authorities more carefully when the immediate crisis had passed. As time went on, from my view on the Intelligence Committee there were developments that seemed farther and farther removed from the ideals of our founding fathers.

This started not long after 9/11, with a Pentagon program called Total Information Awareness, which was essentially an effort to develop an ultra­ large-­scale domestic data­mining system. Troubled by this effort, and its not-exactly-modest logo of an all­-seeing eye on the universe, I worked with a number of senators to shut it down."

from you;
"I'm sick of people warning us. They should put up or shut up." yeah ok,. you make such great intelligible points.

the article continues;
"Unfortunately, this was hardly the last domestic surveillance overreach. In fact, the NSA’s infamous warrantless wiretapping program was already up and running at that point, though I, and most members of the Intelligence Committee didn’t learn about it until a few years later. This was part of a pattern of withholding information from Congress that persisted throughout the Bush administration ­ I joined the Intelligence Committee in 2001, but I learned about the warrantless wiretapping program when you read about it in the New York Times in late 2005."

The original post is a mere snippet, read the REST of the article!!!

[randome]

16. I'm not 'defending' anything. I'm tired of people making vague claims.

Evidence counts. Congress doing its job would be a good step in the right direction, too.

All the abuses you cite were stopped after Bush, Jr. reign. If there is evidence to show they have not, let's see it and let the chips fall where they may.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[Warren Stupidity]

20. You do understand that Wyden cannot make anything other than vague claims, right?

Yes of course you understand that. You are just hoping to bamboozle some readers who don't.

[Vinnie From Indy]

24. Bingo!

Cheers!

[bobduca]

64. Nailed that poster's MO

so sick of these abandoned sub-threads where they pull the same dishonest rhetoric just in an effort to fool the casual readers here.

I guess it beats the pros responses which are just

"nuh uh" and a rofl smiley.

[Maedhros]

79. Sneering is all they have. [n/t]

[randome]

94. Excuse me for going into work today!

Evidence. Where is the evidence that any of Snowden's wild claims are true? And if Wyden wants to transform the NSA, good for him. I have no problem with that. But until someone gets facts and information, this is all pontification.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[reusrename]

140. Use the google. Do a tiny bit of research.

What evidence would you accept? An admission from Obama himself?

Hundreds of doctoral theses on this subject are not evidence to you.

Your denial of reality is truly staggering.

[randome]

144. What would a 'doctoral thesis' have to do with reality?

The only 'evidence' that I see exists are unsubstantiated claims about what someone, somewhere might be doing.

Are employees of the NSA capable of abusing their authority? Of course! But until someone shows evidence -I'm not even asking for proof, mind you, just evidence- then why all this posturing about a 'total surveillance state' and 'fascist authoritarians'.

If the evidence is so easy to find, then please indulge me and point to something. Because when I Google for it, all I find are allegations and self-serving implications.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[reusrename]

145. Everything that I've ever written about on this subject is real.

I don't know how to respond to you.

We are discussing real folks acting in accordance with real laws and with real legal authority.

The doctoral theses are important in that they illustrate the reality of the science itself. It is not tin-foil-hattery as some here are claiming. It's real science. With real PhDs hired by real security agencies to implement real data mining and real social network mapping of real people.

The NSA is a real entity. They are tasked with real requirements and they perform real functions. They use real equipment in real facilities staffed by real people.

The yottabytes of data storage are real. The methods used to collect the data are all real. The courts that set up the legal requirements for this whole surveillance system are real.


Now you are claiming that employees of the NSA might be abusing their authority?

I don't know where you get that idea from, but it sort of fits your general confusion and disorientation on the whole subject matter.

Is that what you want evidence of? Offhand, I don't know of anyone making such a claim.

I think you've wandered off the reservation into a completely different discussion.

[Progressive dog]

90. The price for Wyden and Udall would be

political, more than likely. The Supreme Court said Sen. Gravel committed no crime by reading the Pentagon Papers in open session.

[JDPriestly]

136. Times have changed.

The Obama administration is, to be polite, at best, an unknown in this area.

Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules

The UN special rapporteur on torture has formally accused the US government of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment towards Bradley Manning, the US soldier who was held in solitary confinement for almost a year on suspicion of being the WikiLeaks source.

Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier's arrest at a US military base in May 2010. He concludes that the US military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day over an 11-month period in conditions that he also found might have constituted torture.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

Sorry about the citation. That's the best I could get.

1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CAT.aspx

LT. COL. RALPH PETERS: Now you got this 29-year-old high school dropout whistle blower making foreign policy for our country, our security policy, and the guy -- I think it's sad, we've made treason cool. Betraying your country is kind of a fashion statement. He wants to be the national security Kim Kardashian, he cites Bradley Manning as a hero. I mean, we need to get very, very serious about treason and oh, by the way, for treason, as in the case of Bradley Manning or Edward Snowden, you bring back the death penalty. (FOX & Friends, June 10, 2013)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=3349140

[Progressive dog]

143. The torture of Bradlet Manning was done in a Marine corps prison

not a civilian prison. When the torture became known, he was moved to Army custody and the torture stopped. Torture can't be excused, but there is a big difference between torture ordered by the President and torture perpetrated by underlings. There is a difference between acting to stop torture and instigating torture. There is a difference between not allowing a prisoner clothing (in a heated building) and water boarding. There
There is even a difference between the US government and some former blithering Lt. Col. on Fox news.

[randome]

93. You do understand the lack of evidence, right?

Outrage is more effective when evidence is on your side.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[truedelphi]

109. Thank you, Warren S. n/t

[Civilization2]

28. "evidence" really? What planet are you currently living on??

- Bradley Manning's treatment by THIS administration if proof of what they are capable of, and their respect of due process and the law.
- Snowden's Treatment by THIS administration shows quite a lot as well,. Evo,. and all. and their respect of due process and the law.
- FISA court,. it's functioning is out under THIS administration, and we now know a single secret 'judge' makes 'secret determinations' as to what is "legal", or that is what we are told, since we can not be told an more.., and their respect of due process and the law.
- FISA Court had been ordering a subsidiary of telecommunications company Verizon Communications to turn over to the NSA logs tracking all of its customers' telephone calls on an ongoing daily basis. proof of something perhaps? nd their respect of due process and the law.
- Hacking into the networks of governments and financial institutions under THIS administration,. seems to be evidence of something,. . . and their respect of due process and the law.

What is this evidence you are waiting for?

from the article;
"when President Obama came to office, his administration agreed with me that these rulings needed to be made public. In the summer of 2009 I received a written commitment from the Justice Department and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence that a process would be created to start redacting and declassifying FISA court opinions, so that the American people could have some idea of what the government believes the law allows it to do. In the last four years exactly zero opinions have been released."

also;
"And let’s be clear: the public was not just kept in the dark about the Patriot Act and other secret authorities. The public was actively misled."

and;
"Defenders of this deception have said that members of Congress have the ability to get the full story of what the government is doing on a classified basis, so they shouldn't complain when officials make misleading public statements, even in congressional hearings. That is an absurd argument. Sure, members of Congress could get the full story in a classified setting, but that does not excuse the practice of half truths and misleading statements being made on the public record. When did it become all right for government officials’ public statements and private statements to differ so fundamentally? The answer is that it is not all right, and it is indicative of a much larger culture of misinformation that goes beyond the congressional hearing room and into the public conversation writ large."

[marions ghost]

31. +++++

[cascadiance]

34. And presiding judge of the FISA court is Reggie Walton who LOVES the "State Secrets Privilege"...

Sibel Edmonds also tried to "go through channels" to testify about abuse in the FBI and other security administrations, and tried to take her case to court a number of times. It was very "coincidental" (NOT!) that Reggie Walton was *randomly selected* to be the judge in her cases multiple times and in each case State Secrets Privilege was used to stop the case from even being heard by the court in question.

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/node/1070

And we know that John Roberts is the one who picks judges for this court now too!

And even before Roberts picked them, another previous head of the FISA court, Colleen Kollar-Kotelly, was selected to this court right before she overturned the anit-trust ruling against Microsoft the weekend before the midterm elections after Bush was elected initially, that arguably was used as a political weapon to help Republicans then. Even Kotelly though was voicing concerns as the previous head of the FISA Court at what Bush was doing with warrantless wiretaps by the NSA to try and subvert the process on getting FISA court rulings...

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/12/21/775/68879/waronterror/Judge-Resigns-From-FISA-Court-in-Bush-Protest

[randome]

95. Manning has nothing to do with the NSA, which is the subject of the OP.

Snowden's 'treatment'? Really? The man who said "I am not here to hide from justice" from his 'undisclosed location' in Hong Kong? This is the man whose word you will take without evidence to back him up?

Secrecy? Let's have more transparency and less secrecy then. I have no problem with that. But that's not what the OP was about, either, is it? It's about unspecified horrors that no one -even Snowden, of all people- can tell us about.

I understand that some people need someone to believe in but it's a shame that basic facts are obtained before jumping onto the outrage parade.

What is the NSA doing that's illegal? So far as we know, nothing. If they are doing something illegal, identify it and rectify it. Case closed.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[Civilization2]

107. Yeah, "Snowden's 'treatment'", the revoking of his citizenship for the political act of leaking,.

the government's continued criminal activity.

The original post is speech delivered by Ron Wyden the Democratic senator from Oregon, describing the criminal overreach of the NSA and the lies that the government is telling to hide it. So yeah "secrecy" is the point.

"I understand that some people need someone to believe in but it's a shame that basic facts are obtained before jumping onto the outrage parade"

You condescend when you attribute your own 'needs' to others that simply do not have them,. This is NOT about Snowden this is about Sen. Ron Wyden who spoke the words in the original post. Your trite troll line of hero worship and traitor just do not work now, as this is from another individual a US senator. Sad that you keep pulling that same lameness from your ass.

So far as YOU know, nothing. The rest of us have learned a great deal. "it is not illegal if the president does it", is a rethuglican line,. are you sure you are on the correct site???

[randome]

111. I'm pretty sure every American who steals national security documents...

...and then runs off to give information to other countries will all have their passports revoked. Why would anyone expect differently of a thief?

I keep asking for evidence and no one will provide it. That's why I keep going back to Snowden because I'm assuming that's where you think 'evidence' lies.

If you don't count Snowden's claims as evidence, then what do you?

I agree that the NSA should be more transparent and less secretive. I am not a 'fan' nor a 'supporter' of them but I will assume, absent evidence to the contrary, that they are doing their jobs. The same assumption I make about the school janitor or the postman.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Civilization2]

146. See Reply #28,.

Anyone without their head up their own arse, pushing this culture of misinformation through inane calls for "evidence" when this is available all around us, is righteously angered, by the rise of the corporate-surveillance/police state. The very existence of newspeak named "Patriot Act" (and for that matter "Department of Homeland Security&quot , are evidence that 9/11 has been used to build and expand the police-state, not for reasons of security, but for reasons of control. Temporary and now permanent, how convenient.

The very existence of "secret laws" and "secret courts", the existence of gitmo, and the 900 US military bases around the planet. Evidence? Evidence of WHAT exactly? What is it you just do not see? A petro-dollar based empire, seeing the end of petro, flailing about, building more prisons to add to the already more people imprisoned than any other "country" in the world?? Evidence? I suppose you do not take the admissions of the current regime, once the leaks are already out, as evidence, that they are doing these things. Well good luck with that.

I will keep my replies to your trolliness to a single response in the future, since you make only circular nonsensical posts, and calls for what we have plenty of. Lesson learned. Good day sir.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. So you are attacking my Democratic Senator now. Usually it is just voting Democrats

you try to slime, now you are going for the duly elected senior United States Senator from Oregon? Are you going to be working to unseat him? Are you supporting the Republicans here in Oregon?

[randome]

96. Who is attacking anyone?

I said show us the evidence. I'm tired of people saying there are unspecified horrors occurring all around us. Until I see evidence of that, I'm not going to worry much about it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[spooky3]

46. How amusing, from someone who makes vague claims

About the harm from the light being focused on these programs. And when challenged to provide evidence, you had nothing that could withstand scrutiny.

And, it's "rein" them in, not "reign."

[randome]

97. I can't provide evidence of something I don't know about.

Where do you get off saying I need to provide evidence of anything? I'm not the one wringing my hands about anything. I'm not the one trying to get everyone into your own outrage bubble.

Show us the evidence that the NSA is doing anything illegal and I will have no problem with Congress stopping them.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Civilization2]

103. LOL, Wow just,. WOW! You win the biggest hypocrite of the day award!!!

You keep posting mindless nonsense about "evidence lacking" regarding the expansion and overreach of the state in its "intelligence" gathering, manipulations, and oppression of whistleblowers, and you actually take offence when someone calls you on your bullsht,. just wow!

Congress stopping them? lolz, apparently you are missing the point,. the whole surveillance-state is about to implode on the weight of its own incompetence, greed, and stupidity, and you actually think congress is needed to stop it,. hahaha.

[randome]

106. I don't take offense. Ever.

What evidence can you cite about NSA's illegal activities? Metadata copies? Legal.

Where is this 'expansion' and 'overreach'? You can convince me of anything but I will want to see evidence before I climb on board the outrage wagon.

Or do you simply choose to believe everything that comes out of Snowden's mouth? The guy who apparently didn't understand what a secure FTP server is? The guy who said "I am not here to hide from justice" from his 'undisclosed location' in Hong Kong.

Does every utterance out of this foolish man's mouth count as your 'evidence'? It's not enough for me. Show me. Tell me. What do you have that supports 'expansion' and 'overreach'?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Civilization2]

108. see post 107,. again you keep going to Snowden when this has little to do with him,.

you push the idea of hero worship,. to belittle people. I never claimed to worship any man. I happen to have the gift of critical thought and can read more than one source of information. Your constant attacks on the 'man', and not the point are tiresome,. There is much more happening that what happened LAST week,. lets attempt to keep up to date.

[randome]

132. So you can't point to the evidence, then? I didn't think I was asking too much.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Dustin DeWinde]

139. how is nsa spying illegal?

If you don't like the patriot act, good for you. Get your congressman to repeal it. But making false claims that there is something illegal going on doesn't help your case.

Lies are usually the telltale sign of a teabagger.

[ProSense]

22. Congress acts with speed:

Senate pushes sanctions on nations aiding Snowden
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023338422

[whatchamacallit]

27. It's disturbing how comfortable you are being on the wrong side of this issue. n/t

[ProSense]

30. It's "disturbing how comfortable you are" not dealing with reality. n/t

[think]

51. Hilarious!

[Mojorabbit]

73. But you were all over posting how horrible it was when Bush was doing it. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

45. That poster and her cohort have a long history of opposing Democrats elected in

Oregon. Pro was in a huge snit about DeFazio a few years back, he criticized Obama! They despise all of our Democrats and would prefer Republicans.

[ProSense]

53. Ludicrous.

[morningfog]

74. This has to be the greatest post of cognitive dissonance I've read on DU.

Congress should reign in the Executive Administration instead of making "pontificating speeches." Classic.

And throwing a respected liberal Senator in the irrational and obsessive Greenwald hate is just icing!

[lark]

86. Not legal

Wyden can't reveal the truth without breaking the law. Some people hold their oaths sacrosanct and won't break them while some brave souls see a higher good and share the truth anyway.

As far as reigning in the excesses, most of congress agrees with what they know of the program - most of congress is right wing to center right and don't care a lot about personal freedoms that don't make themselves or their campaign contributors lots of money.

[Progressive dog]

88. Senators swear no secrets oath nt

[dgibby]

100. It's not a secret oath.

It's the same oath taken by anyone with accesss to/knowledge of classified info.

[Progressive dog]

105. No they do not swear an oath

about classified info. Senators do not take an oath about classified information. They don't take any oaths about classified information, none.
From Slate

Legally, members of the House must swear a secrecy oath pledging not to disclose any classified information, although the Senate has no such oath

[rhett o rick]

87. So once again you side wit Gov Christie and against Sen Wyden. IMO you are on the

a strong authoritarian state and not freedom and liberty.

You side with Gen Clapper and against Ms. Plame.

Are we starting to see a pattern?

[Progressive dog]

92. Senators on Intelligence Committee can make no difference

but stay on it anyway. That makes perfect sense to me.

[rhett o rick]

134. Here is an OP about sides. The 1% vs. the 99%. Which side are you on?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023351698

[Demeter]

11. I put him (DR) on Ignore, finally, just this morning

I don't care--if a person isn't doing the job we pay him for, then he's due for criticism, if not more, regardless of party affiliation, historical importance, whatever. There are no mitigating circumstances, and sitting quietly is not an option.

[LiberalLovinLug]

89. Oops....Another messenger to kill!

By the usual suspects down the thread no doubt.

[zeemike]

23. And Udal too

They never loved him.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Just another uninformed idiot bamboozled by randroids.

[Demeter]

12. Are you serious, or sarcastic?

[Warren Stupidity]

19. Poe's Law applies.

There is no difference anymore between parody and reality.

[ProSense]

8. Senator Wyden

"Sen. Ron Wyden On NSA Spying: It's As Bad As Snowden Says"

...said no such thing. In fact Wyden made it clear the distinction between the domestic program and PRISM.

Even after those disclosures, there has been an effort by officials to exaggerate the effectiveness of the bulk phone records collection program by conflating it with the collection of Internet communications under section 702 of the FISA statute. This collection, which involves the PRISM computer system, has produced some information of real value. I will note that last summer I was able to get the executive branch to declassify the fact that the FISA Court has ruled on at least one occasion that this collection violated the Fourth Amendment in a way that affected an undisclosed number of Americans. And the Court also said that the government has violated the spirit of the law as well. So, I think section 702 clearly needs stronger protections for the privacy of law-abiding Americans, and I think these protections could be added without losing the value of this collection. But I won’t deny that this value exists. Meanwhile, I have not seen any indication that the bulk phone records program yielded any unique intelligence that was not also available to the government through less intrusive means. When government officials refer to these programs collectively, and say that “these programs” provided unique intelligence without pointing out that one program is doing all the work and the other is basically just along for the ride, in my judgment that is also a misleading statement.

http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/blog/post/wyden-on-nsa-domestic-surveillance

Of course, Snowden's distortions and international adventure served to shift the focus to all sorts of misinformation about PRISM, which focuses on foreign targets.

Senator Slams Domestic Spying: ‘Secret Law Has No Place In America’
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023322100

[LondonReign2]

42. laughable

[Bluenorthwest]

47. Ron Wyden is my Democratic Senator and fellow Oregonian.

You are a repetitive, rude poster on a website that has never shown even an iota of respect for others. You have taken positions in opposition to every elected Democrat from Oregon. I assume if you lived here, you'd vote for Republicans, because you sure dislike our Democrats.
Ron is a Senator and a Democrat.
You are some blue links, many 'rofl' emoticons and some anti liberal rhetoric.

[ProSense]

48. As usual,

You are a repetitive, rude poster on a website that has never shown even an iota of respect for others. You have taken positions in opposition to every elected Democrat from Oregon. I assume if you lived here, you'd vote for Republicans, because you sure dislike our Democrats.
Ron is a Senator and a Democrat.
You are some blue links, many 'rofl' emoticons and some anti liberal rhetoric.

...another bizarre comment. This, 'repetitive, rude poster," is you projecting.

[bobduca]

58. "you projecting"

[Jefferson23]

10. So,

today I’m going to deliver another warning: If we do not seize this unique moment in our constitutional history to reform our surveillance laws and practices, we will all live to regret it. I’ll have more to say about the consequences of the omnipresent surveillance state, but as you listen to this talk, ponder that most of us have a computer in our pocket that potentially can be used to track and monitor us 24/7. The combination of increasingly advanced technology with a breakdown in the checks and balances that limit government action could lead us to a surveillance state that cannot be reversed.


K&R

[marmar]

13. k/r

[Puzzledtraveller]

14. k&r

[KoKo]

17. Recommend... Looks like Snowden's Revelations are at least giving support

to those who knew NSA had gone way too far...even though naysayers here and elsewhere refuse to believe he's anything but a "treasonous traitor," and try to make it about Snowden and not the revelations themselves.

[WillyT]

18. K & R !!!

[Waiting For Everyman]

21. Very recommended, that is eye-opening.

Well worth reading the whole thing, if nothing else, to get a feel for what Wyden thinks about the progression of these events since 9/11.

He is very concerned and he explains in detail why. One quote...

"If we do not seize this unique moment in our constitutional history to reform our surveillance laws and practices, we will all live to regret it... The combination of increasingly advanced technology with a breakdown in the checks and balances that limit government action could lead us to a surveillance state that cannot be reversed."

[kentuck]

25. We fix it now or there is no turning back...

Wyden is correct. Some people don't want to know or don't seem to care?

[Fire Walk With Me]

26. Wyden is a racist hater teabagger alex jonesssssss~~~~~!!@!!!!

No, he's telling the truth that some for God knows what reason are determined to ignore and mock.

[Douglas Carpenter]

29. knr

[marions ghost]

32. Thank you Ron Wyden and Oregon

X a million yottabytes

[toby jo]

33. Thanks, Senator Wyden, for catching that ball.

Now please toss the bitch up in the air & hit it out of the park for us.

[matthews]

35. Of course a BIG K&R for the truth! Something in short supply anymore. nt

[AzDar]

36. K & R

[Javaman]

37. sadly the patriot act will never be repealed.

too much money is now at stake.

it's now such a part of our nations various financial cottage industries that removing it would cost many a congress critter their jobs.

and at the end of the day, isn't that what this is all about?

[xchrom]

38. new revolving door job opportunities

be fascinating to see who gets nominated for what ever posts after all this.

[Javaman]

39. It will be...

and as a side note: I don't think I'm the only one who believes that homeland security is nothing more than a money making job for various cronies of senators.

Senator: here is your job.

crony: I have to watch the clock and make sure it doesn't stop?

Senator: no, you just have to make sure that it remains being a clock.

[xchrom]

41. indeed. nt

[Coyotl]

62. The State Security Apparatus is a Bush Junta welfare program for redneck merc-types

Don't kid yourself for one minute about who was placed in all the agencies, jobs, re-ordered and reorganized programs. They are Bush hires and will be there for life, with benefits to the grave. It is a huge welfare program for Bush cronies.

[Javaman]

69. You summed it perfectly. Welfare for the repuke well connected. nt

[Coyotl]

71. Carefully filtered good Christian soldiers who never question authority

doing the bidding of the empire and enjoying the fruits of the Bush Junta's crimes

[Douglas Carpenter]

40. knr

[Lugal Zaggesi]

44. Ed Snowden - Robert Lady. Compare and contrast.

In 2003, two dozen or so CIA agents kidnapped an Egyptian citizen from a street in Milan where he was living after Italy granted him asylum from persecution by the US-allied Mubarak regime. The CIA then rendered their kidnapped victim back to Egypt where he was interrogated and tortured. Italian authorities criminally charged the CIA agents with kidnapping, and after the US refused to turn them over for trial, they were convicted in abstentia. One of them, Milan CIA station chief Robert Lady, was sentenced to several years in prison. I wrote about that case, and US behavior in it, several months ago: here.

Lady ended up in Panama, and when the Italians learned of this, they requested his extradition to Italy. The US government intervened and applied significant pressure to Panamanian officials, who, yesterday, predictably released Lady and put him on a plane back to the US. The next time the US lectures the world about the rule of law and need for accountability, I'm sure this incident will be on many people's minds. It should be.


-- Glenn Greenwald
guardian.co.uk, Saturday 20 July 2013 06.23 EDT

[deurbano]

49. K & R

[snappyturtle]

50. K&R K&R K&R nt

[think]

52. Kick & rec for the potted plants....

[Catherina]

54. Of course it is. Our government isn't losing its mind & masks coming off for the fun of it

Here's the video for your thread

Published on Jul 23, 2013

07/23/2013

On July 23, 2013, Senator Wyden's gave remarks on NSA domestic surveillance and the PATRIOT Act at the Center for American Progress. In his speech Wyden warns that "if we don't seize this unique moment in history to reform our surveillance laws and practices, we will all live to regret it."

[xchrom]

56. +1

[LuvNewcastle]

55. A good liberal Senator on the Intelligence Committee is telling us

that things are have gotten out of hand with government surveillance. I trust him, and I think he knows quite a bit more about the subject than anyone on DU. The debate about whether there is any truth to the accusations of overreach by the NSA is settled, as far as I'm concerned. I support Sen. Wyden and Sen. Udall and anyone else in Congress who will work to put an end to these unconstitutional programs.

[Coyotl]

63. ^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^ +1000000000000000

[bobduca]

65. Why doesnt Wyden break the law and join Greenwald in Brazil!?!?!

oh that's right the information he "oversaw" is top secret, and he's sworn to secrecy under penalty of treason (execution).

[LuvNewcastle]

72. He's doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing, which is

making sure the intelligence agencies follow the Constitution. It would be a terrible waste for him to go to Brazil. I hope he starts an investigation so the people can hear about some of the things that have gone wrong.

[villager]

57. "I'm on this site because I support Democrats! Wait -- what party is Wyden again!?"

"Can you roll that bus over here?"

[whttevrr]

59. Sarcasm?

Ronald Lee "Ron" Wyden is the senior United States Senator for Oregon, serving since 1996, and a member of the Democratic Party. He previously served in the United States House of Representatives from 1981 to 1996.

~Wikipedia

[villager]

60. Exactly so.

[MuseRider]

61. K&R

Once again, thank you xchrom.

[Douglas Carpenter]

66. knr

[joeybee12]

67. Wyden never really loved him.

KNR

[Apophis]

68. Let's see how the shills spin this.

K&R

[frylock]

78. these posts are like kryptonite to the naysayers..

they'd rather spend their time and energy raising the hackles of the people that are against the surveillance state with their two-minute hate on Snowstein.

[Apophis]

85. They're the same type of people who were against this when Bush did it.

But when Obama continues the program, they support it and act like there's nothing wrong with it.

They're the worst type of people.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

70. Clearly Senator Wyden never loved the President and instead is a secret Alex Jones follower.

(Do I really need the tag?)

[Hydra]

80. These days, sadly you do need a sarcasm tag :(

[QC]

75. Ron Wyden is nothing more than a Republican posing as a Democrat.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023114963#post122

[LuvNewcastle]

76. I was waiting for that.

He'll be psychoanalyzed and investigated then dragged through the muck like so many others.

[railsback]

77. Wyden: "While I have your attention...

I have this great plan to privatize Medicare."

[Maedhros]

81. Well, since the issue is NSA surveillance and not Medicare

your point is irrelevant.

Trying to paint Wyden as some sort of DINO is patently ridiculous.

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyden

Ronald Lee "Ron" Wyden (born May 3, 1949) is the senior United States Senator for Oregon, serving since 1996, and a member of the Democratic Party. He previously served in the United States House of Representatives from 1981 to 1996.

Wyden characterizes himself as an "independent voice for Oregonians and the nation" and emphasizes his positions on health care reform, national security, consumer protection, and government transparency. On the Issues characterizes him as a "Hard-Core Liberal."

In 2006, Wyden was one of 10 senators to vote against re-authorization of the Patriot Act.

[railsback]

82. Is it now

Revelations about ideologies ALWAYS drive the narrative. If one were to say Clapper is nothing but a Bush stooge because he did this, and this and this and this… why wouldn't one apply the same criteria across the board?

TOTALLY RELEVANT.

[Maedhros]

91. I have had my disagreements with Wyden in the past, including on the Medicare issue you mentioned.

But for you to claim that Wyden's ideology somehow invalidates his experience as a longtime liberal Democratic Senator and member of the Senate Intelligence Committee is simply ludicrous.

I hesitate to call people trolls, but damn - smearing Wyden for his ideology? On a Democratic web site?

You're a troll.

[railsback]

98. It doesn't matter. The parameters have been set in stone.

Either people live by it, or it doesn't mean a hill of beans.

[Pholus]

104. So about that Chained CPI....

[railsback]

113. What about the Chained CPI?

Obama freely admits not wanting it, but throwing it on the negotiating table to keep things moving. Quite different from actually thinking that privatizing Medicare is a 'good' idea.

[Pholus]

133. Post 98. nt

[neverforget]

112. Oh look! Diversion!

[railsback]

114. Yes, never mind the Wyden guy behind the curtain

Now back to Obama's STASI Brigade, coming to take your 'freedoms' and women!

[neverforget]

115. Never mind my Senator doing his job.

[railsback]

116. Trying to kill Medicare

What a job.

[neverforget]

117. Diversion. Thanks for playing.

[railsback]

118. Yes, its like Ted Bundy opening a shelter for orphaned children

[neverforget]

120. You're unhinged

[railsback]

121. Just look away

and ignore all that other ugly shit. If you don't see it, it won't bother you.

[neverforget]

122. Look in the mirror.

I don't support Wyden on his Medicare proposal but I support him on the NSA. I like him. I like President Obama too. I voted for him twice and gave him money. That doesn't mean I support him in everything he does just like I don't support Wyden with every vote he casts in the Senate.

[railsback]

123. Desiring to throw the elderly to the wolves and thinking its a good idea

says A LOT about the man's mentality.

[neverforget]

124. How about Obama's Chained CPI proposal? Does the same thing.

[railsback]

125. Obama has ALWAYS said he never liked the idea

Its on the table as a bargaining chip, which will never get used. Quite the opposite of Wyden.

[neverforget]

127. Lol. If he doesn't believe it then why propose it?

It's in his budget.

[railsback]

129. I just told you

[neverforget]

130. So he hates it so much that he proposed it in his budget because the Republicans

have been for it so they will be against it? Did I get that right?

[99th_Monkey]

83. Wow, thanks!

Sen. Grayson is "on the move" ... it's so awesome how that it's ONLY because of
what Snowden did, that now Grayson can speak out for the first time about stuff
he's been under a gag order about. quite an interesting twist imho.

[Peacetrain]

84. Don't you sometimes wonder how much more effective

and better it would have been if Greenwald or Assange or the Guardian plug in names of your choice.. had counseled Snowden to go to congresspeople like Wyden.. and he could have taken on the role of "activist".. and not have found himself having to ask Putin or the Chinese for shelter..

That is the main reason I have such issues with certain characters.. because it is all about their celebrity or how great am I ..than what would have benefited the country better or the individuals who had the information better..

I know a lot of people are so mad at Snowden they could spit. and he did break the law.. but honest to pete, I feel so sorry for him..

[TheKentuckian]

99. What has happened when others acted as you prescribe?

This isn't the first go around.

He goes to Wyden and then what happens?

Nothing happens other than the activity goes on unchecked and/or they still get ripped apart but either way the public remains in the dark and the secrecy holds.

Snowden would not have been allowed to be any activist, he'd be prosecuted, muzzled, or both.

What you want is for the secrets to stay buried and the lies to go unchecked save maybe vague hints from precious few officials.

I don't believe you are being very honest here and that many less knickers in the party would be in a twist if a Snowden leaked when the other party was in power, in fact he'd be celebrated and his previous political "connections" would just be the cherry on top, proving just how far gone the TeaPubliKlan administration is.

[Peacetrain]

102. I really do not give a hairy damn what you believe

Last edited Fri Jul 26, 2013, 07:39 PM - Edit history (1)

"What you want is for the secrets to stay buried and the lies to go unchecked save maybe vague hints from precious few officials. "

you know what people want??. must have some really gnarly powers there to read minds and know a persons intent.. not on my best day of the week am I capable of that..

[TheKentuckian]

141. Only the clairvoyance required to put together when one flips the switch they want the light on

Logical consequences based on history, context, and obvious trends.

No matter how many times you watch 'The Breakfast Club' it ends with that fist bump.

Spring follows winter.

What suggests any other plausible outcomes? I don't see it. It never plays out the way you outlined so I don't see how it is unfair to wonder at the implications of consistent outcomes.

[Peacetrain]

142. Well Kentuck.. I can't spar with you today

Gotta go see my new nephew.. but let me just say.. Believe what makes you feel good and gets you going in the morning..You are wrong..but we could go back and forth on that all day and get nowhere.. and then everyone gets all excited and weighs in .. sometimes things are just what they are..

[TheKentuckian]

147. Kentuck is another good soul that I think of as a friend online but he is quite distinct

from me other than from whence we originally hail.

I don't believe in what "feels good" or "gets me going in the morning", I'm forced to stick with the truth according to my best discernment whether it hurts like hell or lifts my spirits sky high.

If I am wrong it generally more of a relief than anything else, often I'd LOVE to be wrong but sadly things come closer to my predictions than away from them.

I hate to think that one of these days that I will be right and few of us will survive it. I hope some wrong but "feeling good" about it will wake the fuck up but such folks prefer their beautiful dream no matter how nightmarish reality becomes because of their "dream".

[woo me with science]

119. +1

[darkangel218]

128. +1000

[JEB]

101. Wyden is my Senator and he has earned my vote come re-election time.

[darkangel218]

126. K&R x

[myrna minx]

131. K&R n/t

[JDPriestly]

135. K&R

[blackspade]

137. Well, there goes Wyden under the bus....

[blkmusclmachine]

138. .

.