ERIC HOLDER TO RUSSIA: We Will Not Torture Or Seek The Death Penalty For Edward Snowden

[ProSense]

ERIC HOLDER TO RUSSIA: We Will Not Torture Or Seek The Death Penalty For Edward Snowden

Brett LoGiurato

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder wrote a letter to the Russian minister of justice assuring the Russian government that the U.S. will not seek the death penalty for National Security Agency leak source Edward Snowden if he is returned to the U.S.

<...>

"We also understand from press reports that Mr. Snowden has filed papers seeking temporary asylum in Russia on the grounds that if he were returned to the United States, he would be tortured and would face the death penalty," Holder wrote in the letter to Russian Minister of Justice Alexander Vladimirovich Konovalov.

"These claims are entirely without merit."

Holder explained that the charges Snowden currently faces in the U.S. do not carry the possibility of being charged with the death penalty... Snowden was charged with three felonies that each carry a maximum of 10 years in prison: Theft of government property, unauthorized communication of national defense information, and willful communication of classified communications intelligence information to an unauthorized person.

Holder went on to say that the U.S. would not torture Snowden because, simply, it is unlawful in the U.S.

- more -

http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-russia-asylum-death-penalty-torture-eric-holder-2013-7

Full letter at the link.

[think]

1. We''ll treat him just like Bradley Manning....

[BumRushDaShow]

2. Yawn. nt

[think]

3. Yawning at Bradley Manning's treatment is what I'd expect from a Pug

not a Dem.....

[arely staircase]

5. It is what I'd expect in a military brig as opposed to the civilian system Snowden will face. nt

[think]

6. The UN chief on torture said Manning's treament was inhumane

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

Are you saying this is what you expect from our military?

[arely staircase]

8. I haven't seen any evidence his treatment was unusual given his circumstances. nt

[think]

13. Yes, I doubt you would...

[arely staircase]

22. thanks for providing

nothing

[think]

28. likewise

[bobduca]

16. I'm sure you looked real hard...

[arely staircase]

25. i looked real hard in your post

and found nothing

[think]

32. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

[arely staircase]

44. I have read all of that before. Calling Manning's treatment torture is an insult to

people who have actually been tortured. Here is a well source Wikipedia entry on his detention. One can argue whether his conditions or treatment were fair or appropriate for short periods of time, but there is nothing in here that rises to the level of torture:

Detention[edit]

While in Kuwait he was placed on suicide watch after his behavior caused concern.[56] He was moved from Kuwait to the Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, on July 29, 2010, and classified as a maximum custody detainee, with Prevention of Injury (POI) status. POI status is one stop short of suicide watch, entailing checks by guards every five minutes. His lawyer, David Coombs, a former military attorney, said he was not allowed to sleep between 5 am (7 am at weekends) and 8 pm, and was made to stand or sit up if he tried to. He was required to remain visible at all times, including at night, which entailed no access to sheets, no pillow except one built into his mattress, and a blanket designed not to be shredded.[57] Manning complained that he regarded it as pre-trial punishment.[58]

His cell was 6 × 12 ft with no window, containing a bed, toilet, and sink. The jail had 30 cells built in a U shape, and although detainees could talk to one another, they were unable to see each other. His lawyer said the guards behaved professionally, and had not tried to harass or embarrass Manning. He was allowed to walk for up to one hour a day, meals were taken in the cell, and he was shackled during visits. There was access to television when it was placed in the corridor, and he was allowed to keep one magazine and one book. Because he was in pre-trial detention, he received full pay and benefits.[57]

On January 18, 2011, the jail classified him as a suicide risk after an altercation with the guards. Manning said the guards began issuing conflicting commands, such as "turn left, don't turn left," and upbraiding him for responding to commands with "yes" instead of "aye." Shortly afterwards, he was placed on suicide risk, had his clothing and eyeglasses removed, and was required to remain in his cell 24 hours a day. The suicide watch was lifted on January 21 after a complaint from his lawyer, and the brig commander who ordered it was replaced.[59] On March 2, 2011, he was told that his request that his POI status be removed had been denied. His lawyer said Manning joked to the guards that, if he wanted to harm himself, he could do so with his underwear or his flip-flops. The comment resulted in him having his clothes removed at night, and he had to present himself naked one morning for inspection.[60]

The detention conditions prompted national and international concern. Juan E. Mendez, a United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture, told The Guardian in March 2012 that "the 11 months under conditions of solitary confinement (regardless of the name given to his regime by the prison authorities) constitutes at a minimum cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment in violation of Article 16 of the convention against torture. If the effects in regards to pain and suffering inflicted on Manning were more severe, they could constitute torture." In February 2011, Amnesty International called on the British government to intervene on Manning's behalf and demand that the conditions of his detention, which the organization called "harsh and punitive," be in line with international standards. Amnesty's UK director, Kate Allen, said: "His Welsh parentage means the UK government should demand his 'maximum custody' status does not impair his ability to defend himself, and we would also like to see Foreign Office officials visiting him just as they would any other British person detained overseas and potentially facing trial on very serious charges." However, according to his lawyer, Manning did not regard himself as a British citizen.[61] In March that year State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley criticized Manning's treatment and resigned two days later.[62] In early April, 295 academics (most of them American legal scholars) signed a letter arguing that the treatment was a violation of the United States Constitution.[63] On April 20, the Pentagon transferred Manning to the Midwest Joint Regional Correctional Facility, a new medium-security facility in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, where he was placed in an 80-square-foot cell with a window and a normal mattress, able to mix with other pre-trial detainees and keep personal objects in his cell.[64]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_manning#Detention

[think]

49. Is that the informatioin you are using to condone what they did?

[arely staircase]

55. it is the info I'm using to call bullshit on the Manning was trotured meme nt

[think]

58. "Cruel and inhuman" So you are fine with cruel & inhuman treatment. Just not torture.....

[arely staircase]

60. no. i don't agree with your premise - that he was subjected to anything cruel or inhumane.

there are apparently times when it seems his guards were dicks to him and his lawyer got that stopped pretty quickly. but nothing anywhere near "cruel or inhumane" and certainly not torture. what specifically was he subjected to that you consider torture?

[think]

63. My premise? It is the UN special rapporteur on torture that is making the statement!

Sorry you don't consider him a reliable source to make such a statement...

[arely staircase]

65. I have made clear that I disagree with him.

Again, what specifically was done to Manning that you consider torture? If you think he was tortured, surely you can say how.

[think]

67. If you disagree that 11 months of solitary without a trial isn't cruel and inhuman

we obviously aren't going to agree on issues related to torture....

[arely staircase]

69. his "solitary confinement" was this:

His cell was 6 × 12 ft with no window, containing a bed, toilet, and sink. The jail had 30 cells built in a U shape, and although detainees could talk to one another, they were unable to see each other. His lawyer said the guards behaved professionally, and had not tried to harass or embarrass Manning. He was allowed to walk for up to one hour a day, meals were taken in the cell, and he was shackled during visits. There was access to television when it was placed in the corridor, and he was allowed to keep one magazine and one book. Because he was in pre-trial detention, he received full pay and benefits.[57]


That is hardly cruel and inhumane. It would certainly suck. Being in jail is gonna suck. But that isn't even what people usually think of when they think of "solitary confinement, which implies no human contact.

[think]

70. Why did a Amnesty International complain if his treatment was so wonderful

In February 2011, Amnesty International called on the British government to intervene on Manning's behalf and demand that the conditions of his detention, which the organization called "harsh and punitive," be in line with international standards.

The statement is from your own source BTW....

[arely staircase]

72. I might agree with "harsh and punitive"

but "harsh and punitive" is a far cry from "cruel and inhumane" and light years from "torture." you do see what you have done, right? you started out saying it was "torture", then watered that down to "cruel and inhumane" and then moved the goal post way out of the stadium with "harsh and punitive."

So I will agree with harsh and punitive which is still consistent with my original statement that he wasn't tortured. Does Amnesty International say he was tortured like you do? No, they don't. Why? Because he was never tortured.

[think]

73. Who said torture where? And No I still think his treatment was CRUEL & INHUMAN!!!!!!

[arely staircase]

86. It is what the OP is about: Holder said Snowden won't be tortured

To which you replied "we'll treat him just like Bradley Manning." I inferred that you thought Manning was tortured. If you do not, then we agree - Manning was not tortured.

[think]

96. Yes. Apparently being cruel & inhumane is acceptable to many here

It's not torture.

It's just reprehensible enough that the UN's chief on torture felt it was necessary to make a statement that Manning's conditions were CRUEL & INHUMAN.


And that doesn't give pause to some I guess.......

[arely staircase]

98. so you do or do not think manning was tortured?

you are all over the board here. first you imply he was, then you ask "who said torture?" which is it?

[think]

99. Cruel and inhuman! That is what I've repeatedly said.

It's not torture. But it's still reprehensible and fucking inhumane.

Can you grasp that?

[arely staircase]

102. ok, thanks. I will go with Amnesty International and say

harsh and punitive. which is not even approaching torture and far short of cruel and inhuman. and in any case doesn't give Snowden a leg to stand on when he claims he will be tortured - which is what the OP is all about.

[think]

106. Amnesty calls for protests over Bradley Manning’s treatment

Amnesty calls for protests over Bradley Manning’s treatment
Thursday, Mar 10, 2011 03:11 PM CDT - by Glenn Greenwald

~Snip~


In late January, Amnesty International wrote a letter to Defense Secretary Robert Gates denouncing the conditions of Bradley Manning’s detention as “unnecessarily harsh and punitive” and in “breach the USA’s obligations under international standards and treaties.”

Full article:
http://www.salon.com/2011/03/10/amnesty_7/

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR51/006/2011/en/df463159-5ba2-416a-8b98-d52df0dc817a/amr510062011en.pdf

[arely staircase]

109. and they were successful

"On April 20, (2011) the Pentagon transferred Manning to the Midwest Joint Regional Correctional Facility, a new medium-security facility in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, where he was placed in an 80-square-foot cell with a window and a normal mattress, able to mix with other pre-trial detainees and keep personal objects in his cell.[64]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_manning#Detention

So my whole point, which again is the subject of the OP, is that the fact that Bradley Manning, once but no longer, endured harsh and punitive conditions in a military lock-up, is not in any way evidence that Edward Snowden will be tortured while in Federal civilian custody.

[think]

111. Obviously not everyone is as sure as you since Holder had to write a letter

promising there wouldn't be any torture....

[arely staircase]

120. he wote the letter because Snowden is asking for asylum and specifically saying he will be tortured

and/or given the death penalty. Holder isn't writing the letter in a vacuum, but rather to specifically address Snowden's claims that he will be tortured if returned to the US.

[think]

123. Why does Holder feel the need to address such claims if they are without merit?

The US could have responded that Snowden's claims were baseless and simply absurd.

Plain and simple. America's tainted record on torture, cruel & inhumane treatment, secret renditions, & other assorted indiscretions have tainted the image of America so severely that we can not simply dismiss claims like those of Snowden's.

That is a sad indictment of America's standing in the world in regards to human rights.....

[arely staircase]

151. because a fugitive from justice has based his claim for asylum on it

He would be writing the letter whether the torture under Bush had taken place or not. The justice department wants Russia to reject his request so they are addressing the points he has based his request upon. As you know president Obama ended torture which had been given the green light under Bush. But even if Bush's torture had never happened the attorney general would still write such a letter.

[treestar]

155. If he killed himself, then of course that would be others' fault, too.

He had the option of not acting like a suicide risk.

It's weird to play right into right wingers' hands that we don't believe in personal responsibility at all. No matter what happens to Manning, it's just not his responsibility. If we chose to protect him from killing himself, we are "torturing" him. If he kills himself, it's because we "failed to protect him."

[NuclearDem]

159. Suicide watch in the military is an absolute trainwreck

Guess who was put on suicide watch where I was stationed? Someone who was arrested and detained for stealing TVs.

Guess who wasn't? Me, even though I attempted it three times.

SW is often just used by the military to keep prisoners isolated and cut off. It's gotten to the point that it has almost nothing to do with actual risk of suicide.

[Cha]

167. Exactly arely. Calling bradley's treatment "torture" is

a huge insult to those who have actually been tortured.

Thank you.

[NuclearDem]

14. Manning's torture was largely brought on by extended periods of solitary confinement

Which, by every human rights organization on the planet, is a form of torture. Do you honestly not know our civilian system uses extended solitary confinement as well?

[Mojorabbit]

42. +100 nt

[arely staircase]

61. His "solitary confinement" was one in which he could speak to other prisoners

in other cells in exactly the same situation as him. hardly what one thinks of when they think solitary confinement - which implies no human contact.

[treestar]

154. If you're going to define that as torture

then soon just being in prison will be considered torture.

Just using a word that sounds bad and makes something sound worse, hoping that will strengthen your argument, is just proof your argument is not weak.

[NuclearDem]

158. Thanks for completely misrepresenting what I was saying

In no way shape or form does considering extended periods of solitary confinement torture lead to the conclusion that imprisonment itself is torture.

Extended solitary confinement deprives a person of social contact and mental stimulus for months or even years. That's proven to have a detrimental effect, at best, and the more extreme form of it, Death Row Phenomenon, has been known to cause complete insanity. In fact, DRP is a big part of why EU nations won't extradite to the US if the person is going to face a capital offense.

Simply being in prison does not deprive someone of social contact or mental stimulation. It can be traumatic for some people, but it's in no way even remotely as damaging as extended solitary confinement.

ESC is torture. Every respectable human rights organization on the planet has said as much. Prisoners who have suffered through it have described it as such.

[cprise]

53. You'd excuse torture under a system of martial law, then. n/t

[arely staircase]

62. no. manning was never tortured nt

[KamaAina]

59. Slight quibble: The term 'brig' is used for Navy prisons only.

An Army prison, like the one Manning is in, is called a 'stockade'.

[arely staircase]

66. that is correct nt

[Katashi_itto]

93. So your agreeing torture was ok for Manning. As for Civilian...Jose Padilla, yeah no torture there

[arely staircase]

95. manning wasn't tortured nt

[Katashi_itto]

140. Bwhahaha...your funny

Immediately upon his arrest on May 26, 2010, Manning was transferred to an 8’ x 8’ x 8’ wire mesh cage in Kuwait with just a toilet and a shelf to keep him company. He had confessed online to a supposed confidant earlier in the week that he had submitted compromised intelligence to WikiLeaks, only for that correspondence to be handed to the FBI.

“I just thought I was going to die in that cage. And that’s how I saw it—an animal cage,” he told the judge as he testified for the first time.

Once in Baltimore, Pfc. Manning was loaded into a car and transferred to the military base in Quantico, Virginia. There he was held for nine months in maximum custody in a cell smaller than the one he saw overseas—just 6' x 8'. For only 20 minutes a day, Pfc. Manning was left to see the sunlight while shackled in chains. Other times, he found that if he arched his neck and angled himself just right he could catch the reflection of the sun from a window that was mirrored into his unimaginable concrete hellhole. Once inside his isolation chamber for the customary 23-and-a-half hours or so, he was deprived of just about everything, including contact with other inmates and often his clothes. He was forced to sleep from 1 PM to 11 PM, naked, and was allowed to do so only when facing his lamp.

"I started to feel like I was mentally going back to Kuwait mode, in that lonely, dark, black hole place, mentally," he said.

“The most entertaining thing in my cell was the mirror. You can interact with yourself. I spent a lot of time with it,” he told the court on Thursday

When a forensic psychiatrist was eventually commissioned to assess Manning at the brig, repeated recommendations were made to remove him from protected watch, which left him forced to cover himself with only a suicide smock and bedding that resembled something between a cardboard box and a liquidation sale rug. Those professional suggestions were all ignored in favor of the guards’ own instincts. Many of those staffers testified that they were trained in corrections for one month at an Air Force base in Texas and rightfully admitted that the guidelines for dealing and assessing with a suicide case they were taught there were thrown out the window when Private Manning arrived.

At Quantico, Pfc. Manning treatment wasn’t by the book: the sleep depravation and stripping of clothes; the humiliation; the taunts and mockery; the nine months of putting Pfc. Manning in protected custody citing concerns over suicide—concerns that were rebuffed relentlessly by both Pfc. Manning himself and qualified psychiatrists. That’s why Coombs is looking to have the case against his client thrown out, and Manning’s own testimony this week only accentuated the living nightmare he was made to endure for nearly a year while only a half-hour drive from the capital of the nation

[cprise]

150. *crickets*

[arely staircase]

156. he was never tortured.

even his so-called solitary confinement included being able to talk to other prisoners, an hour of daily exercise, watching TV and access to reading material.

[Katashi_itto]

157. Righhtt...keep dreaming

[villager]

56. Well, "Dem" has a whole new meaning here at the "Underground...."

n/t

[BumRushDaShow]

75. Hyperventlating about a non-analogous case is something that Rush Limbaugh does

not an "alleged" Democrat.

[think]

77. yawn...

[Cha]

168. Yeah, they couldn't care less.. "Bradely Manning/Torture!!!`1111"

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

20. Double yawn.

[bobduca]

23. Yeah fuck Manning that little traitor, now back to dreaming about how exceptional USA is!

[think]

26. Double the torture love. Double the fun....

[tammywammy]

4. Manning's military, Snowden's not. n/t

[hootinholler]

9. So it's ok to torture someone if they are in the military?

Did you really mean to imply that?

[think]

10. Manning was subjected to cruel and inhumane treatment according to

the UN chief on torture:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

So even Bradley Manning didn't deserve the Manning treatment.

Ask Thomas Drake about how he was treated and if he felt he deserved to be indicted for whistle blowing. Our govt makes life hell for whistleblowers...

[Ichingcarpenter]

19. Torture in United States Prisons

https://afsc.org/sites/afsc.civicactions.net/files/documents/torture_in_us_prisons.pdf


Ending Torture in U.S. Prisons

Solitary Confinement Toolkit:
Top Five Recommended Comprehensive Resources
1. Solitary Confinement: A Question of Morals
2. National Geographic: Solitary Confinement
3. Prisons Rethink Isolation, Saving Money, Lives and Sanity
4. Annals of Human Rights: Hellhole - Is solitary confinement torture?
5. Confronting Confinement
The National Religious Campaign Against Torture's work on U.S. prisons is primarily focused on the use of solitary confinement. Solitary confinement has a variety of labels including isolation, segregation (“seg”), “the hole”, and many more. Regardless of the label, the conditions share common features. Prisoners are held by themselves in small cells for up to 23 hours per day and exercise alone for the remaining hour. Some prisoners have been held for months, years, even decades, in these isolated conditions and have experienced long-term mental harm as a result. Many studies have documented the detrimental psychological effects of solitary confinement, such as hallucinations, paranoia, and panic attacks. For NRCAT, the term 'prolonged solitary confinement’ is equated to torture - the point when the use of solitary confinement results in severe mental or physical pain or suffering.

The United States is a world leader in holding prisoners in prolonged solitary confinement. There are 44 state-run super-max prisons and one federal super-max prison -- each of which holds inmates exclusively in solitary confinement. At least 80,000 people in the U.S. criminal justice system are held in solitary confinement on any given day. From 1995 to 2000, the growth rate of segregation units significantly surpassed the prison growth rate overall: 40% compared to 28%. Some argue that the use of solitary confinement is a necessary management tool used for only the “worst of the worst”. However, prisoners sometimes end up in solitary confinement or are unable to move out of isolation due to non-violent prison rule infractions. This is especially the case for mentally-ill prisoners. Read this March 2012 New York Times article on the super-max prison in Parchman, Mississippi and its decision to dramatically reduce prisoners in solitary confinement because of the harm it caused to the mental health of the prisoners as well as the fiscal benefits it would gain from the change

http://www.nrcat.org/torture-in-us-prisons



Torture: The Use of Solitary Confinement in U.S. Prisons

http://ccrjustice.org/solitary-factsheet

[Mojorabbit]

43. There have been multiple articles on this board over the years

describing the conditions and treatment of people in our prison system.

[karynnj]

12. No - Manning was military, Snowden is not

[think]

17. So what they did to Manning is acceptable to you?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

[woo me with science]

33. *Anything* is acceptable to the propaganda team,

as long as a Democrat does it.

[PowerToThePeople]

39. ^^this

[ProSense]

79. Bullshit.

Most of the people making the claim that Manning was tortured because he was held in solitary confinement never gave a shit about all the prisoners who have been subjected to it for decades in this country.

They still don't give a shit, but only use it to push the claim the U.S. tortures. That's the only time if ever comes up.

The Obama administration's policy does not sanction torture. Period.

[randome]

171. Whoa.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[karynnj]

81. No it isn't - and many people like me were upset by the reports and

we posted that at the time.

[woo me with science]

84. The defense here speaks for itself.

"Manning was military. Snowden is not."

[karynnj]

115. Sorry - your logic is completely underwhelming

[QC]

104. Yep. It's all about which jersey the player is wearing.

Hard to believe it, but DU used to be a place where you could get a real education on politics and current affairs.

Now, not so much.

Great place to giggle at dreamy pinups of politicians, though.

[woo me with science]

145. If someone had shown me text of some of the arguments here, fifteen years ago...

or evidence of the things our government is now saying and doing...

I would never have believed it. We really are living in Oceania now.

The Fact That The United States Of America Has To Promise NOT To Torture One Of It's Citizens... Is
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023347753

[LanternWaste]

141. The corollary appears to be just as valid...

The corollary appears to be just as valid...

[woo me with science]

143. I know! NOTHING is acceptable to these people!

Their rejection of torture proves it!

[karynnj]

80. No - and I never said it was - in fact I posted against it back when it was an

issue on DU2.

Saying that Snowden would face a civil court does not mean condoning any actions that happen in military courts. That is a pathetic jump in logic!

[woo me with science]

83. The defense here speaks for itself.

"Manning was military. Snowden is not."

[karynnj]

114. That is because you are seeing things not there

Do you disagree that Manning is in military court? Or that Snowden if tried would be in civilian? If you agree that both of these are true - you agree with what I posted.

Your "defense" completely loses here!

[cui bono]

47. I can't believe you are the third one saying this

and I'm not even done scrolling through the replies.

WTF has happened to our sense of decency and morality in the supposedly Dem party, let alone the entire country.

Disgusting.

[karynnj]

78. Pointing out an obvious fact is now against decency??

For what it is worth, I was against any bad treatment of Manning - and posted as such when it was an issue. However, things can happen in the military system that are completely against the law in civil courts.

[Broward]

82. Yes, many here have lost their way.

Apparently, being a Dem to them is just a label.

[woo me with science]

119. The doubling down is particularly creepy.

War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.

[LanternWaste]

142. As with the tripling up...

"War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength...."


And enemies are heroes. Treason is a virtue....


The dogma here can be just as strong as a Sunday morning baptist church sometimes.

[woo me with science]

144. Imagine taking a consistent stand against torture.

Such tripling up must be mocked for the purism it is.

[pnwmom]

35. Did you read this? He's going to have a civilian lawyer in a civilian trial.

He will not be treated like the soldier and be subject to the military system.

[hootinholler]

7. This really speaks volumes

I'll believe you when you bring our torturers to justice Mr Holder, we have tortured people and I think it did not stop with this administration at least in the Bradley Manning case.

How sad is it that the Attorney General has written such a letter?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. We don't torture! Well, except for the goumet meals being served by tube to prisoners in Guantanamo

[arely staircase]

29. you suggest we let the hunger strikers starve

how cruel and unusual.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. I suggest that they be tried or released and not tortured.

Or, do you consider force-feeding not torture?

[arely staircase]

36. I agree with that. But if that isn't happening I wouldn't let anyone starve to death. nt

[NuclearDem]

34. Force feeding, especially when done brutally and exceptionally harmfully, is torture.

Hunger strikes are literally the only thing prisoners can do to protest their mistreatment. If they choose to starve, they choose to starve. Shoving needles and tubes down their throats to the point they vomit on themselves is humiliating and degrading, and that you defend it is abhorrent.

[arely staircase]

38. I couldn't let anyone starve to death

that seems more cruel than a feeding tube.

[Dragonfli]

50. It is always kinder for the cat to keep his captured victim alive as long as possible

I am sure the mouse finds his compassion touching

[woo me with science]

15. Good god. We are seeing some jaw dropping headlines lately

right here in the United States of America.

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

18. It's sad that there's so much disinformation out there that we have

to promise not to do something we wouldn't do anyway.

[cui bono]

51. It's sad that the US has tortured enough times that our AG has to claim publicly

that we "promise" we won't torture this guy.

Nevermind Manning and all the Iraqis...

[think]

54. Bingo /nt

[Solly Mack]

74. Yep

[Cha]

172. Right, and St Snowedem, the Martyr, and Greenwald, the nasty villain, are putting it

out there.

[hughee99]

21. "entirely" without merit? Does ANYONE buy that?

The charges that Snowden CURRENTLY faces... Yeah, because they can't charge him with something new after getting him back in the US, right?

[woo me with science]

27. No.

I am certain Bradley Manning doesn't.

[WillyT]

24. Well... Are They Not Merciful...

[woo me with science]

30. It's fucking surreal.

I imagine showing these headlines to a relative who died 20 years ago.

I cannot believe what has become of this country.

[WillyT]

37. Agreed... And I Thought We Were Through The Looking Glass With GW...

So mush for hope and change.

[bvar22]

40. LOL. We won't torture SNowden.

We would NEVER do something like that,
because THAT would be illegal.

Oh, man.
You can't make this stuff UP!

Take a guess.
How many countries and people in the WORLD
believe that "the U.S. would not torture Snowden because, simply, it is unlawful in the U.S. "


Tell Me True,
do YOU really believe that?



"Fool me once, shame on you...."

[kentuck]

64. He's already been tortured...

some might argue?

[ProSense]

71. Yeah, and the NSA program is worse than Watergate.

Ludicrous.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

160. If you think watergate is worse than this spying, no one should ever listen to you.

Don't waste your time telling me Watergate was a crime and this isn't. NSA is a criminal organization, start to finish, and this series of spying scandals outpaces Watergate by miles.

[ProSense]

162. If you think what you just said makes sense, then "no one should ever listen to you"

Seriously, no one!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

164. ProSense deploys "I know you are, but what am I?"

[NuclearDem]

165. So how is dystopian mass surveillance by a completely rogue, unaccountable branch of government

somehow not worse than one incident of a few Republican operatives spying on a handful of Democrats?

[ProSense]

170. Well one is a legal program and the other was a crime.

"So how is dystopian mass surveillance by a completely rogue, unaccountable branch of government somehow not worse than one incident of a few Republican operatives spying on a handful of Democrats?"

One involves silly mischaracterizations and the other was tied to the secret bombing of Cambodia.

Still, I love watching Nixon's new defenders trying to diminish the impact of a criminal act using hyperbole and false equivalencies.

[NuclearDem]

175. Just because something is legal doesn't make it even remotely right.

And Watergate had absolutely jack shit to do with the bombing of Cambodia. The only thing that ties them together is that they were both examples of abuse of presidential power under Nixon.

And where the fuck do you get the idea I have any interest in defending Nixon? I just refuse to believe that it's alright to defend one example of the government invading private lives while condemning the other. Cognitive dissonance hurts.

[ProSense]

181. Wow,

Just because something is legal doesn't make it even remotely right.

And Watergate had absolutely jack shit to do with the bombing of Cambodia. The only thing that ties them together is that they were both examples of abuse of presidential power under Nixon.

And where the fuck do you get the idea I have any interest in defending Nixon? I just refuse to believe that it's alright to defend one example of the government invading private lives while condemning the other. Cognitive dissonance hurts.

...great argument: "Just because something is legal" doesn't mean it isn't worse than a crime.

You clearly have no idea about what sparked Watergate. Here you are comparing two situations that aren't remotely related, but dismissing a very real link involving Nixon's scandals.

You're trying to absolve Nixon of his crimes by claiming that a legal program is worst than Watergate. So be outraged, but that is exactly what you're doing.

[NuclearDem]

182. What the fuck are you talking about?

What a giant fucking leap of logic and cheap attempt to poison well, claiming people want to absolve Nixon of his abuse of power for Watergate and Cambodia simply because they're also outraged at the NSA.

The Watergate break-in was wrong. The secret bombing of Cambodia was atrocious. And you know what? Secretly collecting data on millions of people without any sort of consent or oversight is wrong, too. It being condoned by the law and acts of Congress doesn't make it alright, it makes it a fucking nightmare that such an invasion of privacy could be accepted and treated as right.

Maybe you should try considering that you're not only wrong, but that you're enabling and defending the growing surveillance state and invasion of privacy, and stop trying to paint all of your opponents as secret Nixon lovers/racists/Obama haters/Republican apologists. It's fucking sickening.

[ProSense]

183. Watergate was a crime. The NSA program is a legally conducted program.

Deal with that reality.

[NuclearDem]

184. Fucking unbelievable.

I'm actually at a loss for words. You're just...wow. Incredible.

Team Democrat at any cost, huh?

[ProSense]

185. You made a bogus claim. You can be outraged because you were called on it.

Doesn't change the fact that your claim was bogus.

[NuclearDem]

186. Again, you completely miss the point.

We're approaching this at completely separate angles.

I'm arguing morality and ethics.

You're arguing legal vs. illegal.

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it moral or ethical.

Watergate and the bombing of Cambodia were morally and ethically repugnant, but at least we had the sense as a society to define those actions as illegal. The NSA programs are just as morally and ethically repugnant, but what makes it worse is that we as a society have chosen to define them as legal.

[ProSense]

187. No, the point was bogus. n/t

[NuclearDem]

188. ...I know you think that.

[JaneyVee]

41. He should come back to the US and make his case. Public opinion is shifting against him.

Besides that, he should answer questions about what he took and who he shared it with.

[Mojorabbit]

45. He would be an idiot to do so.nt

[JaneyVee]

46. He would be an idiot to stay in Russia.

[Rex]

97. A agree.

But I've been saying the man is an idiot from the beginning of this rollercoaster ride.

[warrprayer]

48. oh.... oh...

[The Link]

52. I don't believe what Holder says.

[KamaAina]

57. Of course we won't seek the death penalty.

That'd mean, y'know, putting him on trial. All kinds of facts 'n' stuff have a way of coming out during trials.

[The Second Stone]

68. Eric Holder doesn't know the difference between torture and the hole

in his ass. He has no credibility on this issue and neither does the US government. The US government does torture and assassinate. And it spies on all of its citizens.

[ProSense]

76. I bet he does. n/t

[chimpymustgo]

87. "The US government does torture and assassinate. And it spies on all of its citizens. "

Edward Snowden - please do NOT fall for the continuing LIES of this government. Don't come back.

They lie to Congress, they lie to the American people. They are LYING to YOU.

[ProSense]

90. Nonsense. n/t

[chimpymustgo]

100. Fitting "rebuttal." DIck Cheney couldn't have sneered it better himself.

[ProSense]

101. More nonsense. n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

85. it is sad we have to promise not to torture

US was once known as a humanitarian country

[ProSense]

88. Despite the

"it is sad we have to promise not to torture"

...title of the piece, Holder is dismissing Snowden's claims as "without merit."

"US was once known as a humanitarian country"

There have been numerous pitfalls along the way.

The Obama administration marked an end to one of the worst periods.

[NuclearDem]

94. No, it marked an end to people publically defending torture as EIT.

It did nothing to actually stop force-feeding (which Obama, as commander-in-chief, has the authority to stop by simply giving an order) or the extended periods of solitary confinement faced at Gitmo, military prisons, and the civilian system at large.

Just because Obama said "The United States of America does not torture" does not make it so.

[Egalitarian Thug]

89. What can anyone say to this except,

& R

[ProSense]

91. We'll see what the Russians do. n/t

[flamingdem]

92. Well this might be the reason for the delay

There are no doubt interesting phone calls happening now that might lead to a trade.

Does 1 Anthony Bout = 1 Edward Snowden or is the math going to be different.

Time will tell.

[LondonReign2]

103. And you under the illusion that this headline

makes Obama look good?

[ZombieHorde]

105. I hope Russia understands that we have something called

enhanced interrogation techniques, which everyone else calls torture. Our culture is so intensely violent that even many people who consider themselves peace loving are cool with torture.

[ProSense]

107. No,

"I hope Russia understands that we have something called enhanced interrogation techniques, which everyone else calls torture."

...that was the Bush administration's policy.

ENDING TORTURE = Three Torches

• Ordered an end to the use of torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, withdrew
  flawed legal analysis used to justify torture and applied the Army Field Manual on interrogations
  government wide.
  
• Abolished the CIA secret prisons.
  
• Says that “waterboarding is torture” and “contrary to America’s traditions… contrary to our ideals.”
  
• No reports of extraordinary rendition to torture or other cruelty under his administration.
  
• Failed to hold those responsible for past torture and other cruelty accountable; has blocked
  alleged victims of torture from having their day in court.

http://www.aclulibertywatch.org/ALWCandidateReportCard.pdf

[ZombieHorde]

113. Bradely Manning.

eta: Force feedings too.

[ProSense]

116. As I said

"Bradely Manning. "

...here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023345900#post79

Bullshit! I repeat.

Most of the people making the claim that Manning was tortured because he was held in solitary confinement never gave a shit about all the prisoners who have been subjected to it for decades in this country.

They still don't give a shit, but only use it to push the claim the U.S. tortures. That's the only time it ever comes up.

The Obama administration's policy does not sanction torture. Period.

[ZombieHorde]

122. Like I said, the US culture is so violent that even peace loving people

support torture. Manning's treatment was cruel and sexually humiliating. Prisoners are being held without being charged with anything, and some of them have been force fed.

[NuclearDem]

132. So Obama's complete inaction to stop the force feeding of prisoners at Gitmo?

[idwiyo]

108. Torture is unlawful in US? Go tell that to prisoners who spent decades in solitary. Never even mind

Gitmo. Forget about other secret prisons.

Jeebus friggin crist,

[ProSense]

110. Yes,

"Torture is unlawful in US? Go tell that to prisoners who spent decades in solitary."

...it is, unless you believe Bush was simply carrying on an American tradition?

[darkangel218]

117. If its unlawful, then why is it still going on??

[idwiyo]

118. Solitary confinement as practiced in US is torture. No buts about it.

I don't give a flying fuck what admin is in charge, if they allow it, they support torture.

I am also damn glad EU finally outlawed life without a possibility of parole. YMMV

[ProSense]

121. Bullshit

Solitary confinement as practiced in US is torture. No buts about it.

I don't give a flying fuck what admin is in charge, if they allow it, they support torture.

I am also damn glad EU finally outlawed life without a possibility of parole. YMMV

...conflating the administration policy with decades old practices in prisons is bullshit.

By your logic, every President, including Clinton and Carter, supports torture.

Bullshit.

[idwiyo]

124. Solitary confinement as practiced in US is torture. Any admin that allows it, allows torture.

Unfortunately for you when it comes to Gitmo, both Bush admin (who started it) and present admin (that let it continue) are guilty as charged.

There is no point stating usual bullshit about un-cooperative Congress and luck of money. Obama could have asked us, the people, for money. I have no doubt enough would have been donated to close that monstrosity.

[ProSense]

125. Wait

"There is no point stating usual bullshit about un-cooperative Congress and luck of money. Obama could have asked us, the people, for money. I have no doubt enough would have been donated to close that monstrosity. "

...WTF?

[idwiyo]

127. Deal with it. :)

[great white snark]

128. Holy crap.

Your need to blame Obama has warped common sense.

[idwiyo]

130. Obama's is just the latest one of the admins that allowed it to continiue. Every single one of them

is guilty.

[NuclearDem]

131. Yes, every past administration did support torture in that aspect

Culturally, there just hasn't been a backlash against it until recently. The research is in now on the effects of extended solitary confinement on prisoners.

Previous administrations may have been guilty of supporting torture that way, but at least they had the benefit of it not being fully understood or known. More recent ones don't have that, and continuing to allow it in the face of evidence and outcry is despicable.

[ProSense]

134. "Previous administrations may have been guilty of supporting torture that way...

"Previous administrations may have been guilty of supporting torture that way, but at least they had the benefit of it not being fully understood or known."

Are you saying the administrations didn't understand they were supporting torture and were unaware of solitary confinement?

Lame excuse.

The notion is absurd. Bush sanctioning torture has nothing to do with this pretzel logic.

The current administration does not sanction torture.

[NuclearDem]

136. Yes, I'm saying that the lack of supporting evidence does partially absolve the previous ones

Hindsight is an absolutely stupid way to look on the past. Context is important.

Bush had no excuse to sanction torture, considering the outcry and blatant illegality of it. Solitary confinement in the United States is as old as the colonies, but research on its effects didn't fully come to fruition until the late 20th century.

And since Obama doesn't sanction torture, I assume he'll be ordering the Gitmo force feeding stopped and he'll withdraw the nomination of the man who oversaw Jose Padilla's mental and psychological torture for FBI director?

[idwiyo]

163. Yes it does. Solitary confinement as it currently practiced in US is torture.

[treestar]

153. You're defining it for yourself.

[idwiyo]

174. Regardless of what you want to believe, solitary confinement as currently practiced in US is torture

Pretending it's not so is not going to change the reality of it. Deal with it.

[randome]

176. What kind of solitary confinement do you NOT consider torture?

I assume 'as currently practiced by the U.S.' means some other country does it differently?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[idwiyo]

179. Less than 14 days, daylight, free access to books, education, exercise, lawyer, NHS or equivalent,

daily access to showers, enough space to be able to move and exercise inside the cell, quiet and dark at night, clean.

I consider the above a basic requirement of humane treatment.

[forestpath]

112. Suuuuuuuuuuuuure they won't.

[great white snark]

126. So he's stating this to the world just so he can do the opposite?

[forestpath]

129. Yeah, just like he claimed he would protect whistleblowers when he was campaigning.

And then he did the exact opposite.

[ProSense]

133. Well,

"Yeah, just like he claimed he would protect whistleblowers when he was campaigning."

...it's Snowden's fault that he didn't take advantage of the protection channels.

President Signs Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act (WPEA)

by Hannah Johnson

After 13 Year Campaign, Federal Workers Get Long-Overdue Upgrades

(Washington, DC) – The Government Accountability Project (GAP) is praising President Obama's signing of S. 743, the Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act (WPEA), into law earlier today. The legislation provides millions of federal workers with the rights they need to report government corruption and wrongdoing safely. The bill reflects an unequivocal bipartisan consensus, having received the vote of every member in the 112th Congress, passing both the Senate and House of Representatives by unanimous consent over the past couple of months. The text of the bill can be read here.

GAP Legal Director Tom Devine commented:

"This reform took 13 years to pass because it can make so much difference against fraud, waste and abuse. Government managers at all levels made pleas and repeatedly blocked the bill through procedural sabotage. But once there were no more secret 'holds,' the WPEA passed unanimously, because no politician in a free society can openly oppose freedom of speech. Over the years, earlier versions of this law had been called the Taxpayer Protection Act. Nothing could set a better context for fiscal cliff negotiations than a unanimous, bipartisan consensus to protect those who risk their careers to protect the taxpayers. This victory reflects a consensus ranging from President Obama to Representative Darrell Issa. The mandate for this law is that the truth is the public's business."

Among other key reforms, federal employees now are protected (in addition to already-existing scenarios) from reprisal if they: are not the first person to disclose misconduct; disclose misconduct to coworkers or supervisors; disclose the consequences of a policy decision; or blow the whistle while carrying out their job duties.

<...>

Devine continued, stating

"The victory reflects strong bipartisan teamwork, as well as advocacy within the party, as Republicans often had to work harder at convincing wary colleagues. And it reflects relentless pressure from conservative stakeholders – like the National Taxpayers Union – throughout the last 13 years. Crucial support came from President Obama, who was committed from day one of his term to signing this bill into law. Most Presidents have offered lip service for whistleblower rights, but President Obama fought to give them more teeth."

- more -

http://www.whistleblower.org/blog/42-2012/2380-president-signs-whistleblower-protection-enhancement-act-wpea-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021890422

[Rex]

135. That is true, we get third world countries to do our torturing.

WE do not torture.

[darkangel218]

137. LULZ!!

[hughee99]

138. We won't torture or kill him IF we get him back to the US...

Of course, he'll have to watch out for drones while he's out of the country, though.

[Rex]

146. Did he have his fingers crossed behind his back?

nt.

[ProSense]

147. Clearly, he should have written:

"These claims are entirely without merit, but I will not 'promise' anything."

Wonder if that would have prevented the: OMG, WTF? He's has to promise not to torture.

This letter clearly doesn't help Snowden's situation.

[hueymahl]

148. I'm new here. Is there a way to negative rec a post?

That was snarky. Let me add a little substance. Not carefully what Holder said:

Holder explained that the charges Snowden currently faces in the U.S. do not carry the possibility of being charged with the death penalty...

"Currently Faces". That was not a slip of the keyboard. And it is a huge loophole allowing our government to charge him with a death-penalty offense if he returns.

OP, no need to thank me for clarifying that for you. I consider it part of my duty as a new member of this prestigious group (and I mean the last part with all sincerity).

[Karmadillo]

149. In a related story, Holder also issued a guarantee to Charlie Brown that Lucy would not pull the

football away should he attempt to kick it.

[gulliver]

152. If Russia sends him back, they might expect us to do the same for a real...

...legitimate asylum seeker from Russia.

[Redford]

161. Snowden is safer in Russia than in his home country

Black is white, up is down,,,,,

[Cha]

166. NO Worries! St snowedem will never let go of his Martyrdom..

He'll cling to that in Mother Russia/"Russia is Good", "USA bad"/"PBO Bad", like a MF.

[randome]

169. I'm thinking he never had a real relationship with his parents nor his girlfriend.

There is something odd about this guy to have run to Russia for the privilege of having released some PowerPoint slides and a copy of a legal warrant.

So many things about him do not add up.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Purveyor]

177. Something 'odd' about you I think... for attempting to analyse Snowden's head without a bit

of knowledge of him.

So now...tell us all about your 'relationship' with your parents and girlfriend/boyfriends?

[randome]

178. I didn't make a public spectacle of myself.

It's only speculation on my part. It's strange we don't hear about his 'fish out of water' girlfriend any longer. He seemed to have ditched her pretty easily.

He never said he misses her, did he? Other than her blog remark above, I don't think she misses him, either.

Not sure if Snowden's said anything about his parents. He may have mentioned them once or twice but I don't get the impression they are that important to him.

Again, just speculation.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Purveyor]

180. LOL. eom

[cherokeeprogressive]

173. Because... Um...

Obama!

I'm betting Snowden never really loved him in the first place.

Big mistake.

[Cha]

194. Snowden "hated Social Security, peddled NRA's garbage about

fighting the government with guns. Wrote about punishing leakers and outlets that published them." An anti-government rw nut job."

SNOWDEN: save money? cut this social security bullshit
User11: hahahayes
User18: Yeah! Fuck old people!
User11: social security is bullshit
User11: let's just toss old people out in the street
User18: Old people could move in with [User11].
User11: NOOO
User11: they smell funny
SNOWDEN: Somehow, our society managed to make it hundreds of years without social security just fine
SNOWDEN: you fucking retards
SNOWDEN: Magically the world changed after the new deal, and old people became made of glass
SNOWDEN: yeah, that makes sense

Once Obama took office, Snowden groaned about his policies with increasing frequency. Fears that Obama might revive an assault weapons ban didn't sit well with him as a defender of the Second Amendment. Another sticking point was social security. Snowden was an individualist, even when it was unpopular; he saw little need for a safety net.

His grandmother would be so proud, who he also claims doesn't support Social Security.

And his opinion on the racist, wingbat Ron Paul? "Dreamy."

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-said-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/

http://www.thepeoplesview.net/2013/07/how-professional-lefts-blind-obama.html

So no, he hated Obama and loved Ron Fucktard Paul.

[HardTimes99]

189. If torture is illegal in the U.S., then why are Bush and Cheney walking

around free men?

Holder is the laughingstock of the civilized world.

[ProSense]

190. I seriously

"Holder is the laughingstock of the civilized world. "

...doubt that, but then again, the question is: What will Russia do?

[HardTimes99]

191. After Konovalov, Medvedev and Putin have finished laughing, they will

respond with a hearty "NYET" (if they have not already done so).

[ProSense]

193. We'll see. n/t

[idwiyo]

195. Putin already said they will not extradite. Peskov confirmed there will be no extradition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23468459

[AnnieBW]

192. We won't torture him

We'll just make him watch all five "Twilight" movies in one sitting!