A Shameful Day to Be a US Citizen

[Segami]

AG Holder promises Russia not to torture Snowden




I have been deeply ashamed of my country many times. The Nixon Christmas bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong was one such time, when hospitals, schools and dikes were targeted. The invasion of Iraq was another. Washington’s silence over the fatal Israeli Commando raid on the Gaza Peace Flotilla--in which a 19-year-old unarmed American boy was murdered--was a third. But I have rarely been as ashamed and disgusted as I was Saturday reading that US Attorney General Eric Holder had sent a letter to the Russian minister of justice saying that the US would “not seek the death penalty” in its espionage case against National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden, promising that even if the US later brought added charges against Snowden after obtaining him, they would not include any death penalty, and vowing that if Snowden were handed over by Russia to the US, he would “not be tortured.” So it has come to this: That the United States has to promise (to Russia!) that it will not torture a prisoner in its control -- a US citizen at that -- and so therefore that person, Edward Snowden, has no basis for claiming that he should be “treated as a refugee or granted asylum.” Why does Holder have to make these pathetic representations to his counterpart in Russia?Because Snowden has applied for asylum saying that he is at risk of torture or execution if returned to the US to face charges for leaking documents showing that the US government is massively violating the civil liberties and privacy of every American by monitoring every American’s electronic communications.




Snowden has made that claim in seeking asylum because he knows that another whistleblower, Pvt. Bradley Manning, was in fact tortured by the US for months, and held without trial in solitary confinement in a Marine military brig for nearly a year, part of the time naked, before being finally put on trial in a kangaroo court, where the judge is as much prosecutor as jurist, and where his guilt was declared in advance by the President of the United States -- the same president who has also already publicly declared Snowden guilty too. It is incredibly shameful that we US citizens have to admit that we live in a country that tortures its prisoners, that casually executes people who are mentally retarded, who are innocent, who had defense attorneys who slept through their clients’ trials, whose prosecutors slept with the judge, who were denied access to DNA evidence that could have proven their innocence, or who were convicted based upon the lies of prosecutors and prosecution witnesses.


This country’s “justice” system has become so perverted and politically tainted that the rest of the world, including Russia, knows that Snowden is telling the truth when he says he cannot hope to receive a fair trial here. Indeed, Congress has passed laws, and the President has signed laws, giving this government the power to lock someone like Snowden up indefinitely without trial, to torture him, and even to kill him, not through a jury decision on capital punishment, but simply on the basis of a secret “finding” by the President that he has aided or abetted terrorism. No wonder Russia and several other countries, including Venezuela, Bolivia and Nicaragua, have offered or are considering offering Snowden asylum. And no wonder that, in its obsession with getting its tyrannical hands on him, this government is willing to promise (for what a promise from the US government is worth) not to kill him or torture him. Shame and anger are the only appropriate responses to that letter from Holder. If this were a country that honored the rule of law, Attorney General Holder would not need to promise not to torture. He would need only to point to the US Constitution, with its ban on “cruel and unusual punishment.” He would not need to promise a fair trial to Snowden, with no capital punishment on any charges. He could point instead to the Constitution’s promise of a presumption of innocence and of a public trial by a jury of the accused’s peers, to make the case against the granting of asylum.



In such a country, someone like Snowden, with the help of a crack legal team, would have a fair shot at proving to a jury his innocence of the government’s frivolous espionage charges. He’d have a fair chance of convincing at least one juror of his absolute innocence of any crime, making his conviction impossible. But that is not what this country is, especially today. In today’s US courts, we know the “Justice” Department would seek to bar testimony about Snowden’s motives in leaking the documents he downloaded from the NSA’s computers. They would ask the judge to limit defense arguments and testimony in the case to the narrow issue of whether or not he downloaded and leaked files, not to whether those files exposed Constitutional violations and needed to be brought to the public’s attention. Our judges, nominated by presidents and confirmed by senators, Democrat and Republican, who want jurists who favor government secrecy and who generally side with the government against the people, can be counted on to grant the government’s motions. In such circumstances, a defendant like Snowden, facing charges of espionage or theft of government secrets, has no ability to defend himself. The trial would be like in a Lewis Carroll event: “Verdict first, trial later!”



cont'




http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/node/1888

[forestpath]

1. K&R

[woo me with science]

2. K&R

The Fact That The United States Of America Has To Promise NOT To Torture One Of It's Citizens... Is
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023347753

[Safetykitten]

3. Well, he could use the "I promised not to take Wall Street criminals to jail" route. Promise kept.

[Segami]

4. "..We should not have to also endure yet another kangaroo court trial,...

...this time of Edward Snowden.

Snowden should be granted asylum in Russia, or should be allowed to travel to one of the other countries of his choice that have had the courage to offer him asylum.

If we’re going to have trials on the issue of spying in the US, let them be of Holder himself, and of President Obama.

[RC]

126. That is what this brouhaha is all about in the first place.

Illegal spying.

If we’re going to have trials on the issue of spying in the US, let them be of Holder himself, and of President Obama.

Snowden didn't spy, he exposed the spies. If the United States wasn't engaged in illegally hoovering up of everything communicated, world wide, then maybe Snowden might be a spy. But we are doing just that and that was what Snowden exposed. The extent of our country's world wide electronic spy system, including on its own citizens. If our country wasn't engaged in stretching the laws to make legal the unconstitutional, there would not have been a problem with anything Snowden exposed. Everything would have been above board all along.

[KoKo]

5. Recommend.

[JEB]

6. Shame is the best face to put on this America.

[Triana]

7. Almost every day is a shameful day to be a US citizen for the past 25 years or so. n/t

[heaven05]

15. yep

10-4

[SammyWinstonJack]

66. True.

[HardTimes99]

95. +Infinity! - nt

[treestar]

8. Just because Snowden says so?

And Holder responds? To a country much more guilty?

Geez. Go live in Russia with Snowden then.

We have nothing to be ashamed of here. It is Snowden who went to Russia and then made outrageous claims.

[Civilization2]

14. wow,. love it or leave it, eh. How about CARE about what it does in your name?

"outrageous claims" lolz,. yeah nothing to see here. amazing!

[treestar]

58. Right wingers said that when we did not support the war

However, these posters are getting to a point where they seem to be so disgusted, maybe they should try somewhere else? Oh but they won't, because they know that say, Russia, is a lot worse.

Do you ever note it doing anything positive in your name?

And it's not my name, no one person is responsible. 47% are Republicans.

[John2]

18. This is what

don't understand from you. Why are you upset about someone defending Snowden against the U.S. Government? He is innocent until proven guilty.

If this guy isn't so important, why is the U.S. trying so hard to get him back? Why is the U.S. Government threatening other countries that might grant this guy asylum and why are they supposedly using the Forces of our military to apprehend this one person? He must know something for the U.S. Government to be trying so hard to capture him? I don't like this at all and don't tell me to move to another country because this is my country, just as much as yours or those people in our Government. It seems to me it is time for a regime change here. I'm suggesting the peaceful way though so don't get any ideas.

[WinkyDink]

27. "We have nothing to be ashamed of here." I give you, especially, Exhibits A and B:

[treestar]

57. So I post some photos of people jumping out of the towers

What has this got to do with the issue the OP raised? OP said we should be ashamed because Holder told the Russians we would not torture Snowden.

And there is no context for you photos and you are using them to inflame.

[JDPriestly]

94. Because the Eight Amendment to our Constitution

prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, but our courts permit punishment that is cruel and unusual as explained in the OP article.

[LiberalLovinLug]

91. +1000

nothing indeed

[7962]

41. While I generally agree with you,

We (the US) HAVE done things we shouldnt have, or shouldve known better. Iraq being the best example. I'm ashamed that we wasted so much on a useless war that only gave us a STRONGER Iran. I think the "flotilla incident" mentioned in the Op is NOT. Watch the film.
But acting like WE are the evil doers when compared to Russia or China is just ridiculous. But some here are living sad lives as victims of every slight, perceived or real.
Shit happens. Thats life. Everyones NOT out to get you.
But be prepared to be savaged, Treestar!!

[treestar]

63. We do have a mixed history

Like any country. But being ashamed of the Snowden thing is something they set up!

The Snowden admirers created the issue that Holder responded to. Well described here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3353181

[RC]

127. No. Our own government created the situation and set it up. The whole kit and kaboodle.

The "Snowden admirers". as you call them, created nothing. They just see the problems more realistically. It is the detractors that are getting creative with defending the wrong doing of our government.
All Snowden did was expose the extent and illegality of of the wholesale hoovering of our electronic data, world wide - including of our own citizens in this country, in violation of the US Constitution. And for that you denigrate Edward Snowden?
Do you ever get the feeling you might be on the wrong side, but don't want to admit you are wrong?

[totodeinhere]

53. Noting to be ashamed of? Are you kidding me?

We should be ashamed of our treatment of Bradley Manning which according to the UN was tantamount to torture. And what about having one of the highest murder rates and incarceration rates in the developed world? We shouldn't be ashamed of that? What about our infant mortality rate? What about the growing gap between the 1% and the rest of us? What about the fate suffered by young black men in America as evidenced by the Trayvon Martin murder? Believe you me have plenty to be ashamed of.

[treestar]

56. This was about one issue and you've thrown in several

Every country has problems. Should not Russians be ashamed to be Russian then?

[totodeinhere]

62. This thread is about a shameful day to be a US citizen, yet you want to compare us to Russia.

Surely we can set a higher standard than that.

[treestar]

65. Pretty much every country has much to be ashamed of

It is not shameful to press charges against Snowden. The rest is of his own doing. He makes up claims he will be tortured and we say no we won't, and we are to be ashamed? How about Snowden for his defamatory suggestions, while he sits in Russia?

[totodeinhere]

70. Makes up claims he will be tortured? My aren't you a trusting soul.

Are the UN special rapporteur on torture's findings about Bradley Manning's treatment also made up?

[Progressive dog]

75. That Snowden will be tortured meme is gettiing stale.

Bradley Manning was not a civilian and this is what was actually done to him.

Coombs filed a formal complaint after his client was abruptly placed on suicide watch by the commander of the brig. During the suicide watch, Manning was confined to his cell around the clock, while a guard sat outside watching him. He was also stripped to his underwear, and his prescription eyeglasses were taken from him and returned only during the one hour a day when he was permitted to watch television and read.

and while that is wrong, he was transferred from Quantico and the punitive treatment ceased.

Manning was later transferred to Ft. Leavenworth in Kansas, at least in part in response to criticism of his treatment at Quantico, where he is allowed to eat in a dining facility with other inmates and has three hours of indoor and outdoor recreational time each day. He also has access to a law library where a computer is available for inmates.

The excerpts are from Wired, Kim Zetter, 3/12/12
I would think that Greenwald and all those who owe Snowden so much of their freedoms could monitor his pretrial confinement or maybe Glenn could donate his time to continue as Eddie's mouthpiece.

This is what the special rapporteur actually said

He told the Guardian that “the 11 months under conditions of solitary confinement … constitutes at a minimum cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment in violation of article 16 of the convention against torture. If the effects in regards to pain and suffering inflicted on Manning were more severe, they could constitute torture.”

"They could constitute torture." My God, what a forceful statement, "If the effects ....were more severe, they could constitute torture."

[totodeinhere]

84. And was the treatment of Manning as outlined by the special rapporteur alright with you?

Last edited Tue Jul 30, 2013, 11:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Your weak statement that it was "wrong" doesn't even begin to adequately address what happened to him. The fact that he was not a civilian is irrelevant. The Geneva conventions on torture apply to everyone.

[LiberalLovinLug]

93. Thankyou

[Progressive dog]

144. What part of Manning is military and Snowden isn't don't

you understand?

[totodeinhere]

156. When people join the military they don't give up their human rights. Human rights

are innate and no military has the right to abrogate them.

[Progressive dog]

157. They give up rights in every military everywhere.

That's the way it always has been.

[JDPriestly]

96. The US government should be ashamed for tracking our metadata and storing other data that

is personal to us. That's who should be ashamed.

[JDPriestly]

92. Except that for decades we bragged to the world about our civil rights record,

and constantly demanded that the USSR and the now-Russia meet our standard, grant the rights in reality that we claimed that we did.

We gave asylum to all kinds of refugees from the USSR.

And now, we are not the shining city on the hill.

[Octoberfurst]

119. Wow

Another Kool Aid drinker I see. I guess the government using police state tactics doesn't bother you much huh?

[NorthCarolina]

120. Let me just say

I am glad that you are neither a relative or a neighbor of mine.

[ProSense]

9. Absolutely ridiculous

"AG Holder promises Russia not to torture Snowden"


Holder dimisses Snowden's claims as being without merit, and some people decide it's "shameful" by mischaracterizing the point.

Be ashamed, it doesn't change the fact that the Snowden's claims were hyperbolic nonsense.

[Civilization2]

12. The SHAME comes from America having to make the claim "we will not kill or torture our citizen",. .

just to try and get him extradited! And the fact that the claim itself is clearly a LIE!

See; Bradley Manning

[Recursion]

132. Snowden said he would be tortured. He's lying

Holder is calling out that lie. A portion of DU had gone batshit insane and actually thinks Snowden is found to be sent to Gitmo. It's beyond stupid.

[SunSeeker]

16. Perfectly stated. nt

[zeemike]

19. Really?

Taxi to the Dark Side...

[NuclearDem]

42. As usual, missing the point entirely.

What's shameful is that Holder had to respond to this at all, whether you think the claims from Snowden were hyperbolic or not.

What's shameful is that we're at a point in this country where the idea that we would torture or execute someone the government considers an enemy is not laughed down as wild conspiracy or paranoia, but thanks to Gitmo, the secret CIA prisons, the NDAA, and the drone program, is actually credible and based in reality.

What's fucked up is that the state of American foreign policy and civil liberties actually led Holder to believe he had to address the topic at all.

[MADem]

79. How do we know that those aren't assurances that have been previously negotiated?

In other words, State Department talks to their counterparts, gets a laundry list of "demands" (assurances) that Russia requires, and assuming that USA makes the appropriate written declaration, the Russians hand Snowden over.

I am not saying that is what is happening here, but if it was what was happening, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

Bill Clinton went to North Korea and had a picture taken with Kim Iz Nutz to get Lisa Ling's sister and her pal out of purgatory. He did that with the complete knowledge and support of the State Department. http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1914656,00.html

Sometimes we do things we don't particularly like to do in order to make other things happen.

[JDPriestly]

97. Because Obama's popularity would tank in time if he obtained extradition of Snowden.

Americans are grateful to Snowden for telling the truth about government surveillance-- finally after so many years of it.

[MADem]

98. I think that remains to be seen. Opinion is shifting.

Here is one article that sort of sums up the changing attitudes:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bryan-schonfeld/hero-traitor-selfsaboteur_b_3604832.html

[TreasonousBastard]

116. I suspect that even more to the point is that Putin is...

laughing his red ass off at the situation-- the heretofore saintly US bowing and scraping and promising not to torture or kill.

Why wouldn't they milk it for all it's worth?

[MADem]

140. Why wouldn't they milk it? Because revenge is a dish best served cold.

And Putin knows this.

There's a meeting coming up in September, a Moscow one-on-one after a St. Pete summit--Obama might just be "too busy" to bother, or "worse," send Biden to St. Pete (and Joe would perform brilliantly, too--he'd convey, in the style of the most artful Fenian warrior, the notion that he is at least Putin's equal, and maybe a bit superior, all while being gregarious, witty and clever to the rest of the leaders assembled).

But worst of all is if Obama pointedly attends St. Pete and skips Moscow. That is a hearty fuck you!

And then, there's the OLYMPICS. Boycotts can happen for a variety of reasons, at a variety of levels, too:

http://www.ibtimes.com/boycott-olympics-sochi-2014-becomes-unlikely-platform-gay-rights-debate-1360365

In the event that anyone might think that the US government, itself, isn't signaling that there exists a possibility of enacting these moves, I offer this link:

http://www.voanews.com/content/reu-obama-moscow-snowden/1704115.html

WASHINGTON — The White House is deliberately leaving it vague as to whether President Barack Obama will attend talks in Moscow with Russian President Vladimir Putin if the saga involving former U.S. spy agency contractor Edward Snowden is unresolved. ... Pressed on Wednesday on whether Obama will still go on the Moscow part of the trip, White House spokesman Jay Carney was vague.

The Lindsey Graham boycott proposal (having absolutely nothing to do with LGBT rights in Russia) is also included in the VOA article.

Another option being floated is the boycott by LEADERS, on the basis of human rights, of the games, leaving Putin to sit alone, without being able to play Big Man On Campus-Host to the world's rulers, and urging all the western democracies to weave the rainbow flag into their uniforms, to boot. That would be not just a stick in the eye, but a kick in the ass as well. It would be Putin, North Korea, China, and the homophobic South American rulers...and a smattering of others from hither and yon.

No harm in convergence when one wants to make a point--the point being that Pootie will be marginalized, for whatever reason. For a guy with his ego, which is the size of the moon, that will not go over well.

FWIW, that letter does come off like a response to a "laundry list" request made through diplomatic channels. I suspect that will come out, much later. Time, as always, will tell!

[NorthCarolina]

121. Didn't miss it I'm sure, just purposefully chose to ignore it

and re-direct the discussion elsewhere.

[WillyT]

10. K & R !!!

[sabrina 1]

11. We've had so many shameful days since 9/11 it's hard to calculate the damage done

to this country and any influence it will have in the future, as the rest of the world takes steps to try to roll back the abuses.

[bvar22]

72. For a while there in 2008, I had some "hope" for "change",

....but it didn't turn out.

[sabrina 1]

76. So did we all ...

I guess there is still some hope, seeing the flurry of bills now being proposed to end some of these abusive Bush policies, but it took a man risking everything to get this level of interest from Congress. I hope this time there will be some changes, there have to be.

[DissidentVoice]

112. Another one who had hope...

...and lost it when President Obama reauthorised the evil, hateful USA Patriot Act.

[Tab]

13. I doubt it's so sinister

I'm not overly familiar with the rules of international amnesty (or Russian amnesty), but I presume it goes something along the lines of it can be granted if the applicant has real reason to believe they will be retaliated against, tortured, put to death, etc. If the US is making such a statement, they're basically saying "we're not going to commit any of the offenses that would require asylum (cross my heart hope to die) and therefore you have no need to grant asylum, therefore send him back to us.

Don't get me wrong (or started) - there's a lot of human and constitutional rights abuses the United States has to answer for, but I think this needs to be interpreted in a strictly legal sense.

[Jackpine Radical]

17. I'm sure your analysis of Holder's motives is correct.

But the whole thing would be a little more credible if we had no record of torture or capital punishment.

[John2]

20. What does he know

that the U.S. finds so important to get this guy back? That is what I want to know? If it is nothing, then the Government has nothing to worry about. I'm going to preface this, there is no country in the World, capable enough to place the U.S. at risk of being invaded. I think what is at stake is justice and maybe U.S. credibility. I have a hunch it is something that will embarrass the U.S. Government and nothing to do with national security. It want embarrass me or any American citizen, but those pretending to represent our interests. For one thing, I don't like the President getting in bed with these Neocons. He needs to clean up U.S. policy instead of these politicians attacking Americans with legitimate concerns of what these people do in our name.

[paparush]

61. It's that...what more does he have..and

it's about keeping people in line. GOT to make an example of everyone who steps out of line (Manning, Snowden, etc) Dissent will not be tolerated.

[kardonb]

71. its that

BS ! Traitors will not be tolerated !

[marions ghost]

87. "Dissent will not be tolerated"

We have sunk that low it seems...

Wouldn't it be great to feel like we lived in a good country, a country you'd want to give something back to, instead of a country to be ashamed of. A country you don't want to be a contributor to.

One nation, under surveillance, with less and less liberty and justice for all everyday...

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

90. It is ONLY to send a message to future whistle blowers

That there is no place earth that would be able to provide you sanctuary, otherwise they have a nightmare on their hands.

Snowden has placed the files online in multiple locations thAt would be released if anything were to happen to him.

[SCVDem]

21. Did Snowden admit to stealing classified information?

Then he's guilty!

Everything else is a separate issue which rightfully falls on Congress and those who signed the Patriot Act into law.

We all knew about this spying years ago. Now you all get offended?

Simply amazing.

[John2]

24. If the U.S. Government broke

any laws or went out and committed murder, stealing classified information to reveal it doesn't really matter to me. The American people have oversight of the U.S. Government period! I'm more interested in what he knows. I guess he must have something against the U.S. Government which includes Congress.

[Segami]

31. Aah, a majority were also "offended" before!

So whats simply amazing?

[SCVDem]

69. Because before,

We we're all good patriotic Americans!

Surely you remember the Lee Greenwood era of American policy.

Anything goes or you were "one of them"!

[JoeyT]

83. Yes, I remember being one of them.

So I find it kind of insulting that people claim we're just now pissed off about it. Now that we have proof of it, we can try to do something about it.

So no, we weren't all good patriotic Americans. I remember the same love it or leave it/BDS/UnAmerican screaming coming from Republicans that's now coming from Democrats with only the most minor changes in tune. The Lee Greenwood era of American policy hasn't ended, it's just different people doing the singing.

[Caretha]

89. No

Actually I was offended when they passed the Patriot Act. Unfortunately, it's taken the precedent of the actions of someone like Snowden to get others offended....

Then there are people like you who will never be offended.....even when they cut off your nose.

[Jamastiene]

105. The point is that America should not have to promise not to torture its own citizens

to get them extradited from other countries. It is a shameful day in America when our government has to promise not to torture one of our own citizens to get him extradited from another country...Russia, no less! Really think about that for a minute. Let it set in. You'll understand then.

[pasto76]

22. when did this become about whether snowden 'was telling the truth'?

I havent seen anybody denying that what he revealed isnt true. Even the NSA admits his revelatins are true.

which is what makes them revelations, and not allegations.

The OP would have us believe that snowden didnt sign agreements, and didnt know he was breaking the law when he revealed all these things. Bullshit. You cant get into these jobs and not know the consequences of breaching that.

He's a coward because he ran. Hes a coward because from hong kong and russia he has continued to dangle the carrot saying 'if you dont leave me alone, I'll release more stuff'.

Which means he hasnt released everything he knows. Which means there are still NSA/government secrets that are still under wraps. If he was such a great hero, why would he hold anything back? isnt this about transparency? I thought he was doing this as a servant to liberty and the american people...but he decided to keep some things to himself.

a real patriot would have leaked every iota to the press, and then faced the consequences in this country.

Thats the root of my cynicism towards him, he made off like he did this great thing, but then we find out he still has more secrets. Sounds like a used car salesman to me. Not a hero.

And what he did, is in fact, illegal. If you cant seperate the LEGALITY of what he did from the MORALITY of what he did you shouldnt be on the interwebs.

[lofty1]

59. Transparency

What if the additional information that he has would ruin the lives of the officials that want to prosecute him? Or what if the information that he has would ruin the lives of many innocent people? Would you still want to know it?

[WinkyDink]

23. Eric Holder is, in a word, evil. A poison pill in the O. Admin.

[nolabels]

124. Much of my life i heard the line 'it's the friends you have'

Pretty much that line is bullshit on both sides. If you stand for it or even just let it stand, from your associates and friends, then your part of the ripple. Moreover my observance is that those friends you have will turn you into them. Holder is an officially and figuratively an extension of Obama and they could not do it without each other. Holder might be more like the others that also hang out than we know, and remember he doing the job he is expected to do. Otherwise he wouldn't be there.

Kind of reminds me kind of the movie

Goodfellas
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099685/

[uponit7771]

125. ...wingers say the same, many ignore both

[WinkyDink]

150. Feel free. My LEFT-wing credibility is well-established in the real world.

[rhett o rick]

25. k&r thanks for posting.

[tritsofme]

26. People that keep harping on this statement from Holder are either completely disingenuous

with their attacks, as these sorts of assurances are common in extradition requests, or they are just ignorant fools who would rather keep attacking the president than be informed.

[John2]

33. The President needs

to decide if he is going to be a Democrat or Republican. He can't be both. The neocons in his Administration needs to go. Their Policies need to go. He is really doing things that upset his Base. If those advisors are advising him to do so, the advisors need to go. He needs to put a real Liberal person in the Intelligence agency. He is making enemies of the Left. Take the Drug issue for example. He needs to lead on changing it and not pass it off to Congress. He needs to stand up for Social Security and not cave in to Corporate America. It has never been about they, it is we or us. He is suppose to be with us. That is why people elected him. They didn't elect him to do everything the other side wishes or they would have elected a Republican. If the Bush Administration boke the laws, he should have allowed prosecution, not go and have tea with them or double down on their Policies.

[Segami]

35. +1000

[BlueJazz]

28. It's downright creepy. Imagine if your wedding vows were spoken like this>

I promise to love and take care of you with all my heart and NOT smash your face in if I get angry or depressed.

EEWWW...Yuck.....

[Vietnameravet]

29. I guess we have to impeach Obama..

I mean he is the captain of the ship and must accept responsibility for all these evil things... if he is so bad, why not? You're not alone..You may want to join this man

http://www.glennbeck.com/2013/05/13/its-time-to-appoint-special-counsel-explore-impeachment-of-president-obama/

Just leave me out.

[John2]

38. No, that is

not what they want. The whole Government needs to be impeach because they are all the same. We have ni opposition Party especially when the leader claims he is more like them. That is not what we voted for. People are upset, because he is doubling down on the neocon Bush policies. They wanted a change. What is so hard to understand about that? They don't want anymore Wars like Vietnam,Iraq or possibly Syria. I don't trust anything they claim anymore. There is too much secrecy. That is why you have Snowdens, mannings and now an Ex CIA agent. It is why you had a dying War vet losing trust in our Government. You can't keep sending Americans to illegal Wars and keep hiding behind patriotism.

[Vietnameravet]

50. No one disagrees we need a change and Obama has not been nearly as strong as I would

have liked..and no one wants another Vietnam or Iraq....and I dont believe in papering over crimes with patriotism.... However, ..It seems like its open season on the administration and any one can say any thing and it is immediately believed and spread..Read what they say and if half of it is true then we should impeach Obama..

I accept the need for spying,,,wish we lived in a different world but we don't.

As far as trust is concerned, I think you have to have some trust and I do have enough trust in Obama to believe that he would not abuse spying. I think we have to have a bit of faith and trust and I cannot imagine how we can survive as a nation if we become total cynics..all fighting against each other.


And finally, Snowden took an oath to keep secret what he knew and he violated that oath...


But I do appreciate your remarks and honest concerns.

[RC]

128. No, he did not.

He took a oath to uphold the Constitution. Our own government did not adhere to that same Constitution. That is what Snowden exposed.

[cascadiance]

48. No. NOT the GOVERNMENT, NOT OBAMA! IMPEACH THE F'ing 1% FASCISTS!

THat fucking control them!

Take money out of politics!
- movetoamend.org to get rid of corporate personhood and "money is free speech" (it IS FUCKING BRIBERY FOLKS! Let's not forget that WAS A crime before)
- public campaign financed elections
- instant runoff voting, so we can have realistic candidate options that aren't Republicans or DLC Democrats (that have BOTH been funded by the Koch brothers)
- update the fourth amendment to prevent crooks working around it today, and define who really owns private data online! US!!!! If they can "own" patents and copyrights on data online, then we can "own" our privacy there as well!

[penndragon69]

30. Snowden is a TRAITOR !

Bradley Manning followed the law as set down by the J.C.M.J. by revealing crimes committed
and covered up by the Govt.

Snowden took an oath of secrecy to work in the intelligence service. After years of working
under the bush regime and having NO problem with what was going on, he suddenly wants to become a whistle blower
when the "BLACK" man is elected to be President.

Anyone who believes that the intelligence agencies are NOT spying on EVERYONE is naive. Snowden did not
reveal anything new about NSA activities, but he did run out with a laptop full of secrets and started telling
AL QUAIDA and other terrorist groups that their SKYPE conversations were being monitored which caused them
to switch to other methods of planning future attacks around the globe.

If another TERRORIST attack occurs that could have been stopped if he had not blown their cover.
The blood will be on Snowdens hand.

[Vietnameravet]

32. Right Penn and

if such an attack occurs the Repubs will blame Obama for not keeping us safe and Democrats will again wake up after an election and wonder "What happened?"

[OmahaBlueDog]

37. This is the business we've chosen

Hyman Roth: There was this kid I grew up with; he was younger than me. Sorta looked up to me, you know. We did our first work together, worked our way out of the street. Things were good, we made the most of it. During Prohibition, we ran molasses into Canada... made a fortune, your father, too. As much as anyone, I loved him and trusted him. Later on he had an idea to build a city out of a desert stop-over for GI's on the way to the West Coast. That kid's name was Moe Greene, and the city he invented was Las Vegas. This was a great man, a man of vision and guts. And there isn't even a plaque, or a signpost or a statue of him in that town! Someone put a bullet through his eye. No one knows who gave the order. When I heard it, I wasn't angry; I knew Moe, I knew he was head-strong, talking loud, saying stupid things. So when he turned up dead, I let it go. And I said to myself, this is the business we've chosen; I didn't ask who gave the order, because it had nothing to do with business!

The OBD family has had some connection to US intelligence going back to the OSS. Most of it is mind-numbingly boring business that has nothing to do with torture or James Bond or anything you've read in a novel by Ian Fleming or Tom Clancy. However, when you join "The Company", or any one of it's affiliated agencies (OSI, NSA, and many others), or if you go to work at a US Nuclear Lab, or you work in one of the more unconventional areas of the military, certain things are made crystal clear. One of those things is that there are things you can't talk about, and if you talk about them, there is a huge price to be paid.

Manning and Snowden talked about secrets. They were told there would be penalties for doing so. They will have to pay a price. It's that simple.

[John2]

40. You mean the

same people that we are using right now to destroy Syria? The ones that we can vett from getting arms? The same people that murdered Ambassador Stevens while the CIA used them to bring down Gadaffi? The same people the U.S. Government claims don't have access to chemical agents, or the same people being financed by Saudi Arabia and Qatar? How about the Taliban that has headquarters in Qatar right near a U.S. base?

[NuclearDem]

47. If another terrorist attack happens, it won't be because of a single leak.

It'll be because we armed al-Qaeda in Syria (which, frankly, would just be coming full circle with those guys anyway), propped up a military coup in Egypt, and blew up innocent people in Yemen and Pakistan and fomented anti-American sentiment among people who never would have fallen for that in the first place.

[cascadiance]

54. Nothing new? HOW sir, would you sue the government without the documents he released?

He gave us all standing to demand the government explain to us in court what they are doing! And if you don't understand that, you really need to educate yourself, or question who you are working for posting here!

Just because he's a libertarian doesn't make him evil. You want to live in a police state? Move to another country where you can live under those UNAMERICAN principles that people like Ben Franklin would tell you to do.

"Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither"
- Benjamin Franklin

[bvar22]

73. That is the same thing that the "Royalists" said back in 1776.

The also called the American Militias "cowards" for running away to fight another day,
and NOT standing up in a pretty line to let the British Mow Them Down as their law required.

I see the Royalists are still with us.

[HardTimes99]

99. OT (somewhat), but your post reminded me of a funny joke I once heard. Seems

General George Washington and Lord Cornwallis decided to throw the dice to see who would get to set the rules of war.

They rolled and, as it happened, Washington won high roll.

"OK, Cornwallis," Washington is reported to have told his British counterpart. "You and your forces will wear bright red coats, line up in straight lines and march in formation down the roads. My men will dress in rustic-colored clothing and hide behind rocks and trees."

[Maineman]

34. Yes, shameful, but I am mostly neutral on Snowden himself, and I have an observation...

Seldom do I see so much irrational commentary as I see regarding Snowden - both accusers and defenders, especially those who think him so terrible. He provided important information to the people about government intrusion and overreach, just what he stated as his objective. Now he has the predicament of trying to survive against this country's overreach around the entire planet. Don't we just love being an international bully! It makes me sick.

[randome]

86. If he had showed evidence of illegality or abuse, I would agree with you.

But he has not. All he and Greenwald have done is make vague claims and provide some PowerPoint slides, some of which directly refute their allegations.

And none of that has anything to do with giving away national security information to Chinese journalists and to Der Spiegel.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Mojorabbit]

100. You have had all the things that he has revealed spelled out for you

in multiple threads but you continue to say that there has been nothing illegal or new found. It is not true no matter how many times you repeat it.

[searchingforlight]

36. I agree with those posters who say that this is simply diplomatic rhetoric.

Yes - America has bloody hands and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't think.

I suspect Snowden's motives because he wasn't willing to stay and face the consequences. He had a contractual agreement which if some reports are to be believed he never intended to keep when he signed it.

The question is where do we draw the line? Should all the military/employees be free to leak anything that they don't agree with? Does anything fall under the classification "Crypto" "Top Secret" "Classified" or is the worker/employee free to pick and chose what he believes should or should not be exposed? What about business intellectual property?

Why not just close down all information gathering agencies and even businesses that collect information?

[randome]

88. We were shameful from Day One. Our beloved founders owned slaves.

We were shameful from Day Two, when we tried to exterminate native Americans.

The history of Humanity is full of embarrassments. If the OP thinks America is somehow different, then he/she must believe in American Exceptionalism to be so newly ashamed.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[sgtbenobo]

39. Sham followed by shame over and over again. I am reminded of another shameful day.

Reckless Administration May Reap Disastrous Consequences
by US Senator Robert Byrd
Senate Floor Speech - Wednesday, February 12, 2003

"To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of war.

Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent -- ominously, dreadfully silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing.

We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.

And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes, represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning point in the recent history of the world."


An endless pattern of deceit and treachery. We have lost what little control we ever had. Brace for impact.


Carry on.

[Carolina]

136. Bravo! And

welcome to DU!

Robert Byrd also spoke out passionately, powerfully and eloquently about the dastardly IWR in October 2002 which so many of our current crop of cowardly "leaders" (Kerry, Clinton, Biden) voted for.

How sad for us all that Byrd was not heeded in 2002 and 2003. The cowardly "aye" voters who remained shamefully silent in the face of impending pre-emptive war live on in high places among the political elite while the nation and the world spiral downward in this "endless pattern of deceit and treachery."

Great words and sad truth, sgtbenobo!

[Historic NY]

43. Thats funny because if he was a Russian he'd be sent off with the Pussy riot girls...

and now LGBT youths. He would disapper into Russia's extremely harsh penal system.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/26/no-parole-for-imprisoned-members-of-pussy-riot/?_r=0

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/photos-from-russia-everyone-needs-to-see

http://gawker.com/what-the-hell-is-going-on-with-russia-and-gays-an-exp-926183504

[awoke_in_2003]

44. This is shameful, but not just for this instance...

this is common practice with extradition requests. The thing that is shameful is that this is common because we still have a death penalty

[AndyA]

45. I'm sure Holder left an out for the U.S.

Is stoning to someone to death in a public square considered torture?

[arely staircase]

46. hopefully it will be enough to convince them to extradite him

so he can pay fro his crimes.

[HardTimes99]

101. Um, will that happen before or after Bush and Cheney have

paid for their crimes?

Funny how that "look forward, not backward" standard isn't mentioned now, isn't it?

Color me fucking disgusted.

[arely staircase]

103. one does not, nor should not, depend on the other nt

[HardTimes99]

104. Well, Holder says 'torture is unlawful' but self-admitted torturers are

not held accountable.

Something's rotten in the state of Denmark.

[arely staircase]

106. torturers should be prosecuted, agreed

But so should guys who liftl US Intel then run off to Eussia with it.

[HardTimes99]

107. Missing the point. Can't say torture is 'unlawful' as a reason to

extradite Snowden, when we don't prosecute torturers under some bullshit rationale that we have to look forward rather than backward.

I have to put my hip waders on, b/c the shit is getting deep.

[arely staircase]

133. president obama ended bushs torture program in 2009

Snowden is just making excuses to avoid justice.

[RC]

129. Who will pay for the crimes of our government, Snowden has exposed?

[arely staircase]

137. Snowden hasn't exposed any crimes

the things he released were a warrant from a court, relating to an intrusive, bad, but totally legal collection of phone metadata. And the PRISM program which is also legal and according to Sen. Wyden, an important and legitimate national security tool.

[RC]

139. bruahahahahahahaha...

They had to pass a law and make it retroactive so this would be legal!
However, there is still the violations of United States Constitution to contend with. They just have not rescinded the pertinent parts yet. Give them time.

[arely staircase]

141. what crimes then did he expose?

what specific government actions, revealed by Snowden, violate what specific federal statutes? as far as violating the constitution, Article 3 (as interpreted in Marbury v. Madison) leaves it to the courts to decide what actions undertaken by the other branches (or lower courts in the judicial branch) violate the constitution. so far they haven't found phone date collection to be unconstitutional. you may feel like it is unconstitutional, but only the opinion of the federal judiciary has any import when determining whether it is in practice.

[RC]

142. Because our government says it is legal, though operating almost in total secret, it is OK with you?

The world wide spying that is. Whatever they do with your information is fine with you? The current and past administrations love people like you, that allows them to do whatever they want, with impunity, because the government says it is OK?
Read the 4th Amendment. How does that read to you? I don't see anything there about "...if it so pleases the government".

Article IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

How does that jive with the wholesale hoovering and storing of everyone's personal communications?
Most of our "papers" now a days are in electronic form on our computers. Our computers are some of our personal effects.
Where is the probable cause for the wholesale hoovering of our private communications? Show me a warrant that has my name on it and the crimes I am suspected of. Where is/are the warrant with your name on it and the crimes you are suspected of committing?
You are not going to find any, because they don't exist. All you will find are secret, rubber stamped, blanket warrants, rubber stamped by secret courts, covering most any and everything.
How does all this blanket spying on us citizens jive with the Constitution and this being a supposed free country?

[arely staircase]

143. so you can't name a single statute that has been violated?

as I suspected. and no I'm not OK with the intrusive, but legal, metadata collection. as far as "worldwide spying" I am all in favor of PRISM interceptions of foreign e-mails that pass through US systems. Basically my position is the same as Sen. Wyden's.

[RC]

146. I posted a section of the supreme law of the land, from the United States Constitution and

you ignored it in favor of statutes that may or may not be constitutional?

[arely staircase]

148. And I referenced Art. 3 of the Contitution and Marbury v. Madison which say the courts, not you make

that decision.

[Pholus]

151. How would you know? After all, the relevant laws are SECRET! nt

[arely staircase]

152. I take "exposed" to mean made public. nt

[Pholus]

153. You still can't claim you have knowledge of what is legal and what isn't.

That is still being sorted out in the courts, with the government fighting tooth and nail to avoid even discussing the legal basis for their operations.

[arely staircase]

154. I defer to statute and case law and common law. nt

[Pholus]

155. Then you apparently are not paying attention. nt

[Chan790]

49. No, it's not.

Shame would be capitulating on demands to return Snowden so he can face justice.

[Catherina]

51. Excellent article. Thank you n/t

[malaise]

52. Because Bush did torture Americans

That's why

[totodeinhere]

55. Don't forget Bradley Manning who was tortured according to the UN. n/t

[malaise]

60. True

I think Mr Fish's cartoon said everything for me yesterday - I'm tired of he violation of the rule of law everywhere; I'm tired of the violation of international law and conventions.
I am so fucking tired it isn't funny. Never did I think humanity would regress but what the fuck do dreamers like me know.

[midnight]

64. K&R

[snappyturtle]

67. K&R I'm ashamed and "concerned and disappointed". The last 2 words

were the administration's when learning of the release of the Yemenese
journalist.

[Hubert Flottz]

68. When George W Bush's slick lawyers justified water boarding

as a legal way of obtaining evidence, the American justice system has become what the USSR or Wartime Germany had been in the past. Despotic means to an end, right down to, allowing and encouraging of large attack dogs to maul restrained prisoners, the beating the life out of prisoners and the water boarding of prisoners. The pictures that "Got Out" of Abu Ghraib, pretty much destroyed the USA's standing in the human rights departments around the globe. How can our government expect anyone at home or abroad to trust a government that peeps through our keyholes and that eavesdrops on our most private conversations. And now our government is floating the idea of doing away with the postal service, in an effort to eliminate a form of information exchange that's too hard to pilfer.

Soon how many times you fart on any given night, will be "top secret, public information."

We are buying bullshit with our tax dollars, people spying for us and we pay for the phone company and cable company to help Secret Sam screw us out of our Liberty and Justice.

Hear the voices? Hell you may be today's "normal" and it just might be a couple of NSA's boys and girls outside your keyhole, laughing at your naked peoplebot ass.

The down side is, it takes billions of volts, for a revolt and old Uncle Secret Sammy has EVERY advantage in any upcoming bouts, with We the People.

I rest my miserable case!

[truebluegreen]

74. So embarrassing

that it had to be said.

[MotherPetrie]

77. K&R

[Javaman]

78. how far we have fallen. nt

[KoKo]

80. Seriously...it was embarassing to this DU'er who grew up..

under the Cold War...to see the "Tables Turned" on us.

[tblue]

81. Indeed a shame, adding to a very

long list of shames. The US should be the country you don't have to fear being extradited to because you know you will be treated fairly and with Constitutional protections. Can't say that anymore.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

82. Bleh. You're comparing Holder's assurances re: death penalty and torture to Hanoi Christmas bombingo

Abu Ghraib,etc. Wow.

[randome]

85. I'd say it's a safe bet that Russia has much more to be ashamed of.

That doesn't exonerate us but there isn't a country on Earth that doesn't have misdeeds in their past.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[HardTimes99]

102. This is the same Holder who declined to prosecute Bush and Cheney for

war crimes and crimes against humanity.

He has ZERO credibility. Nor does the US any more. That all went away on 3/20/2003. Buh-bye.

None, zero, nada credibility.

We have met the enemy and it is us.

[Recursion]

135. And that matters because....?

Seriously. I keep seeing that brought up as if it matters here. Can you complete that alleged logic for me?

[HardTimes99]

138. Holder's letter to Putin says Snowden won't be tortured because torture

supposedly is 'unlawful.' And yet Cheney has bragged openly of authorizing torture and is not prosecuted. So how 'unlawful' can anyone really say torture is and manage to keep a straight face?

Sort of like Louie's 'shock' to find out that gambling was going on at Rick's.

Torture is as American as cherry pie (with apologies to H. Rap Brown).

[Recursion]

145. Meh. That's way too much of a stretch for me

I can tell that's persuasive for you, but I still don't see that connection.

[HardTimes99]

147. After Abu Ghraib, waterboarding and extraordinary renditions, the U.S. has

zero credibility left when it comes to our human rights record.

Why just a couple weeks ago, the U.S. pressured the sovereign nation of Panama to release CIA agent Robert Lady from Panamanian custody. Lady was being held for extradition to Italy under a valid Interpol warrant for crimes Lady committed in Italy that led to the kidnapping, rendition and torture of an Italian national.

Just a couple weeks ago, in case you were getting ready to lay this one off on the Bush administration. (Lady committed his crimes during the Bush adminsitration, but the warrant was executed on Obama's watch.) The U.S. has demonstrated its utter contempt for international law over and over and over again. So we can't piss and moan when others don't hop to when we command them to.

Screw that. That ship sailed on March 20, 2003 on a voyage with no certain return.

[Hekate]

108. How would you feel if he had promised not to beat his wife when falsely accused of doing so?

It was Holder's boss (Obama) after all, who said that the military was no longer allowed to torture prisoners after Bush Jr had said they could.

Snowden, of course, is a civilian and so subject to the regular criminal justice system -- where ostensibly people are not allowed to be tortured anyway.

Bush Jr may have encouraged a different mindset, but here is Holder pointing out that Snowden will not be tortured on his watch.

I seem to be missing something here, but I don't feel any sense of shame that Holder pointed out the obvious about how the justice system in the US is supposed to work.

I feel rather like someone had falsely accused Holder of beating his wife, and he had to deal with the public accusation somehow, so he promised not to beat her.

[1awake]

109. Ashamed of my Government?

No no... I use to be ashamed of my government. Now, it not so much shame I feel, but fear and contempt. It's been quite some time since I've been here, and I must say, I find it hard to believe some of the positions I see certain people taking on the issue's of Snowden, the NSA, and FISA. I mean... Secrets courts with appointed judges who were appointed by another appointed judge, rubber stamping pretty much anything that apparently has come across their desks... Blanket Warrants that would be tossed out with either a reprimand or a laugh in any other court... And a person who for whatever reason(s) came forward to tell / expand upon / inform the American people about illegal/unethical things going on. I'm sure I've missed a few things but... really??

This is going to get me in trouble on my first day back but I gotta say... I NEVER thought I would see the day where ANYONE on DU would be okie dokie with at the very least... a secret court. I must admit I find myself disappointed. Not that I'm anyone who matters, but still.

[RC]

134. Here, this will help you catch up.

Sorry about mess here lately. We've had an invasion of 3rd Way, DLC and DINO's and sundry other to the Right denizens claiming to be Democrats, because the "Democratic tent is so big".

[NealK]

110. Great post. K&R

[GlashFordan]

111. Fucking embarrassing

Oh the depths to which we've sunk.

[4bucksagallon]

113. I don't know why we would negotiate at all he is a traitor.

and he is also a thief, and a coward. Let them have him we don't need him or his type here. Someone that runs away and hides, that's what I would expect from a Ted Nugent type. FU Snowden you have shown your true colors and your yellow belly, just what I expect from a Republican.

[truth2power]

114. Everything Holder says has gigantic loopholes in it....

Why anyone would believe him if he said the sky was blue is beyond me.

He has NO shame. Looks like a fool!

[greytdemocrat]

115. It's a shameful day alright...nt

[blackspade]

117. Well said.

[Cali_Democrat]

118. Snowden says he will be tortured and executed if he's extradited

Holder dismisses those claims and people are outraged.

OK.

If Holder didn't dismiss those claims, people would be outraged by the fact he didn't dismiss those claims.

[CakeGrrl]

149. +1000. This "I'm ashamed" stuff

is a bunch of bs from people who ASSUME Snowden will be tortured, and then have the nerve to lambaste someone who refutes the claim.

On that basis, I can't take this cyber-outrage very seriously.

And if this is such a shameful, awful, totalitarian place to be, then why don't those who are so very ashamed and terrified of this government expatriate to a country whose government is not the evil bully they keep saying?

Why be here if the United States has degraded into a hotbed of oppression and secrecy, and NOTHING any government official says is to be believed?

[leftstreet]

122. DURec

[L0oniX]

123. Holder is the laughing stock of Wallstreet and the banksters. The shame is that he was selected...

for anything but a county animal control officer.

[Recursion]

131. Yes, standing up against torture is shameful. Cheney was totally right! Torture is awesome

Why is this wimp Holder speaking out against torture?

WHAT THE HELL BOARD HAS DU TURNED INTO? Why are pro-torture posts like this on the greatest page? Why is DU against Holder affirming the US's policy against torturing prisoners?