Greenwald’s Outrage Sandwich: NSA Analysts Can Analyze NSA Intelligence

[flamingdem]

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/07/greenwalds-shocking-bombshell-nsa-analysts-can-analyze-intel-collected-by-the-nsa/

Greenwald’s Shocking Bombshell: NSA Analysts Can Analyze NSA Intelligence

by Bob Cesca

--- snip

It gets sillier. The following Greenwald statement could be referred to as an outrage sandwich: two outrageous claims surrounding a throw-away mention of delicious, meaty truth that mitigates the outrageousness of the two claims.

“It’s done with no need to go to court, no need to get approval. There are legal constraints for spying on Americans, you can’t target them without going to the FISA court. But it allows them to listen to whatever e-mails they want, telephone calls, browsing history, Microsoft Word documents.”
Put another way: No need for court oversight! (But there’s court oversight and warrants.) They can listen to whatever they want! In the midst of inciting outrage, these mitigating news blips manage to pop up in nearly every article. But the blips are considerably out-gunned by all of the bloated hyperbole preceding and following each one.

Whenever the government determines there’s probable cause for targeting American citizens or “U.S. persons” with surveillance, requests are submitted to the Foreign Intelligence Court (FISC or “FISA Court”) and warrants are issued. This is standard operating procedure as sanctioned by Congress. Warrants are likely the “policy protections” that Snowden hedged about in his online Q&A. But the hyperbole has led many Americans, and even members of Congress, to believe that NSA is eavesdropping on all of us without cause or judicial oversight.

In other words, what Snowden said in his Hong Kong video interview about his “authorities” to read the president’s email apparently had to do with his illegal, extrajudicial ability to do so. Snowden and others could evidently use this software (to be revealed this week) to hack into the president’s email, for example. Yet these analysts would be doing it outside the purview of American law since the president is an American citizen and targeting him for eavesdropping requires a warrant as well as this mysterious “technical protection” or “filter” (maybe Greenwald will tell us about the filter, but I’m not holding my breath). Likewise, NSA analysts must attain warrants and surmount the mystery filter in order to listen to your calls or to read your emails; not unlike various legal requirements that any law enforcement official must satisfy. It’s sad that we have to remind Greenwald’s disciples that from low-level deputies on up, the law requires similar orders in order to conduct a search, per the Fourth Amendment, and those orders can only be attained if there’s a suspicion that an American citizen might be breaking the law.

But you’ll never hear it described this way by Glenn Greenwald because it renders his bombshells impotent.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

1. Edward Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of news that Tyranny is coming!

Last edited Mon Aug 12, 2013, 11:30 AM - Edit history (1)

Edward Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of news that Tyranny is coming!

Edward Snowden's Dad Calls Him 'Modern Day Paul Revere'
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/edward-snowdens-dad-calls-modern-day-paul-revere/story?id=19554337

Hmmm... who knew how influential a DU meme could be

[intaglio]

11. Paul Revere got caught

... and revealed Continental Army movements to the British.

I wish the Snowden groupies would remember that.

[Pholus]

32. Guess the British were more competent than us then.

That isn't a ringing endorsement of how cost-effective all these spy games are, you know.

It was gross incompetence to depend on private companies for granting entry into the "oh so top secret clearance club."

The bragging about the last minute deck-chair rearranging with the "no lone zones" is no better.

It kind of conflicts with all the hype about how good "anomaly detection in large databases" works in the first place.

So why are we forced to pay for pure waste?

Because we don't know about it. It's secret dont'cha know!

What a scam!!!

As more information dribbles out as sunlight peeks in, I see signs of $600 toilet seats and hammers all over this.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

39. Not before his famous warning ride

Just like Snowden

[intaglio]

43. He never got to where he was supposed to go

He warned others, then got caught and never made it to Concord. After a comfortable night with his captors he happily discussed troop movements. The ride was completed by others.

FFS if a Brit knows your history better than your good self ...

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

45. More parallels

Why do you think I, and his father, are using this highly regarded historical American figure.

:shakes-head:

[intaglio]

62. How is a man who did no espionage, just scouting

a parallel with a self publicist traitor who seems to have overstayed his 15 minutes of fame?

You know who else were (and in some quarters are) still highly regarded historical figures?
J Edgar Hoover
George Patton
George Armstrong Custer
Jefferson Davis
Robert E Lee.

Many people on ... another website ... seem to regard Sarah Palin in the same light you shine on Edward Snowden.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

77. They both blew the whistle on their gov to warn the people

It's pretty easy to understand, and the meme is spreading.

[emulatorloo]

78. Funny I've only seen it at DU

And only in your posts.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

81. LINK: ABC News

Edward Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of news that Tyranny is coming!

Edward Snowden's Dad Calls Him 'Modern Day Paul Revere'
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/edward-snowdens-dad-calls-modern-day-paul-revere/story?id=19554337

Hmmm... who knew who influential a DU meme could be

[emulatorloo]

128. So you and his Dad then!

cool.

[intaglio]

80. Technically and actually, no

Revere asked that a light or lights be hung from a church steeple to warn of the movement of British (Regular) Troops - you know "1 if by land or 2 if by sea"? He then tried to do what was asked of him, which was spread the word and get it to Concord. He managed to spread the word but failed to get it to Concord himself; that was done by others. Only to the most deluded mind would an act of reconnaissance be considered "whistle blowing" against, or betrayal of, the British Crown. Indeed the British did not regard Paul Revere as a traitor because they released him after that night.

Revere regarded his government as being the Continental Congress.

Now compare to Mr Snowden who performed acts of espionage against the legally constituted government of the USA; he was not acting in the service of an alternative government in rebellion to this legally constituted government. What is more he sought protection from the consequences his spying by publicising what has been long available information about government programs that watch the actions of US citizens.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

82. Let's agree to disagree shall we

I say he "blew the whistle" (spread the secret news) that the legal gov, at that time, was about to act unlawfully against the people, which was considered to be espionage by the legal gov at that time, and he choose to break the law anyway.

Sure, I guess it could be argued that what Snowden did was much less damaging to the gov, since he did not reveal any troop movements, however I do believe that a reasonable person can easily spot the parallels.

good day, to you.

[randome]

83. Your post is totally embarrassing...

...to those who want desperately to believe in Snowden as a hero!

The man who said "I am not here to hide from justice" from his 'undisclosed location' in Hong Kong!

What a brave man!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

85. speak for yourself & I believe the word you're looking for is P A T R I O T

I do not use the term 'hero' lightly, and have not used it at all here.

[treestar]

57. Also was a spy himself

Spying on the British.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

84. actually

He was spying on his own government, of that time.

The continental congress did not vote for independence, and a break from Crown rule until after his famous whistle blowing ride.

[Progressive dog]

59. Paul's monument was shipped to Hong Kong

yesterday, They're going to replace his face with Snowden's. That is unless the Russians force the plane down and steal the statue for the Moscow airport.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

86. How Bizarre

[arely staircase]

105. and he can see russia from his hotel

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

120. To our gov great disgrace

[arely staircase]

123. speak for yourself nt

[last1standing]

2. How strange, the Chamber of Commerce says the same thing.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/02/spy/all/

How interesting that your many, many posts all smearing Greenwald and Snowden are exactly what the CoC, NSA contractors and other right wing interests want to push on boards like DU.

[AgingAmerican]

5. It's a strange coincidence!

What's up with that?

[intaglio]

13. Perhaps that is because people look at what was done ...

... by both Snowden and Greenwald, see that all of this is old news and scaremongering in an attempt to damage the USA, President and the Democratic Party.

[last1standing]

35. So your hypothesis is that the Chamber of Commerce is worried about hurting Obama and Democrats?

Would you like some time to rethink your position, perhaps? Maybe you could look up the CoC and check out their donation habits. Or you could read their website to see what they think of us.

After that why don't you come back and tell me again how the CoC cares so deeply for Obama and Democrats.

[reusrename]

102. It's so silly it's hilarious.

Yes, Obama's political enemies are upset because Snowden is making Obama look bad.

It's pathological and adorable at the same time.

[Divernan]

24. Intaglio is from the UK, you know, home of the International Chamber of Commerce.

ICC UK is the voice of international business in the UK.
We aim to further our members’ interests by making it easier for them to trade internationally.

We do this by working with governments and businesses worldwide to open up markets, establish a level playing field for enterprise, and promote sensible regulation.

http://www.international-chamber.co.uk/

What is his/her reason for so actively and vociferously attacking Snowden and defending NSA?

You know the phrase, "consider the source"? I welcome your opinion, but the facts that you are neither an American nor a Democrat is relevant to evaluating your motivation and opinions.

[last1standing]

33. I think you responded to the wrong person.

I'm neither Intaglio nor was my post in response to him/her.

[Divernan]

37. I understand. I was pointing out there is an international chamber of commerce, as well.

which might motivate/encourage its members to attack Snowden/support NSA.

[KittyWampus]

71. So your entire ability to contribute in this thread is to intimate others are paid trolls >>>

Skinner (57,821 posts)
1. This whole who-is-the-paid-shill witch hunt is disruptive nonsense.

It betrays an utter lack of creativity on the part of the people making the accusation. They are so convinced that they are right that they cannot imagine someone else might hold a different point of view in good faith. Either that or they are incapable of advocating for their own point of view on the merits.

[intaglio]

44. Attacking? Because if the ignorance on display about this matter

BTW I have been posting here since prior to the 2008 election, originally to cheer for Dennis Kucinich and his proposal for a true US national health service. I have had US correspondents and friends who have suffered because of the Ayn Rand nature of US "healthcare".

My views:
1) Manning is a hero;
2) Snowden (and Greenwald) are self publicists;
3) the information about Echelon and Prism was never a revelation because all the information has been out there for years;
4) Snowden did steal, and provide to antagonistic countries, US surveillance details;
5) metadata has to be open to allow modern phone systems (and e-mails and the internet) to work;
6) open data can be used as evidence for further searches of private data;
7) if you are so dumb as to think anything you put out on the internet is private then there is a bridge in London you might want to buy.
8) The same goes for mobile phone calls, faxes and a host of other modern communications

Additionally:
A) neither Greenwald nor Snowden are in any danger of assassination;
B) the Bolivian aircraft was not refused access to airspace until after a technical issue caused it to ask for permission to vary its flight plan, whilst it was airborne;
C) scary drones are not all Predators, most are remote sensing devices doing nothing that is unconstitutional nor should it be illegal
D) the media frenzy is primarily designed to damage the President and the Democratic Party;

If you want e-mail privacy invest in a good 256 bit encryption program.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

89. look who's talking

Let me clear up some obvious ignorance in regard to why, what the international newspaper, the Guardian, revealed to the world has had such a huge, global NEWs impact.

This is the very first time that DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE has been presented in regards to the unprecedented GLOBAL SUSPICIONLESS SPYING

I think that is pretty straight forward and easy to understand.

Otherwise, you can go on pretending that practically political and media of the whole world are ignorant, and that only you precious few have the truth.

But of course if you opt for the latter, don't feign surprise when folks start to consider your "ideas"

m'kay

[intaglio]

106. Sorry, but as a "Guardian Reader" of long standing

I can say your POSt is full of nonsense.

"Guardian Reader" over here refers to someone (loosely of the left) who studies the various Governmental, business, environmental and health scandals revealed by The Guardian with various levels of outrage, yet accepts (without demur) lifestyle and "alternative health tips which verge on the laughable. Most long standing Guardian readers are pretty sceptical of both types of story as often they are overblown and poorly researched. The polar opposite is the "Daily Mail Reader".

Over here "The Guardian" is often referred to as "The Grauniad" (pron. groaniad) because of past very poor editing and sub-editing.

This has been made worse by the arrival of on-line blogs, like Glen Greenwald's, which are often cited as authoritative because they appear with the kudos of "The Guardian".

The next piece of disinformation that you are trying to sell is that:

This is the very first time that DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE has been presented in regards to the unprecedented GLOBAL SUSPICIONLESS SPYING
(bolding and caps yours)

Well, you are completely wrong and one example shows it. Allow me to introduce you to the name Duncan Campbell. In September 1988 he published a hugely well researched, impeccably sourced and well documented piece in "The New Statesman" about the massive spying effort funded by the USA called (tah-da-dah!) Echelon. This was followed up by various newspapers in the UK and also, I believe, in the USA.

In truth even this was not particularly original as "Private Eye" had been publishing about this for some years. If needed I could even say that these were not the first documented reports as tales about generic GCHQ spying had been round since the early '70s though they were ("Private Eye" excepted) were the first to mention Echelon and (RAF) Menwith Hill.

I need to pretend nothing for I do not live in a fairyland of evil governments, superhuman assassination plots and perfect secrecy. I live in a world where governments are made up of more or less fallible humans, security services hate assassination because it complicates matters as well as revealing what interests the service concerned and secrecy consists, primarily, of the majority of the public not noticing what is going on.

If I wanted to wear a "tinfoil hat" I would not (it actually concentrates rf waves in the head) but I could point to tales told me about very high quality voice recognition software used (against the IRA) back in the 70's; the Signals regiment that was completely disbanded because of espionage in its ranks; or the large void under Hyde Park, not recorded on any map, that Imperial College lecturers used to have their geophysics students detect.

Essentially; I pay attention, I listen and I remember but with the caveat that I know memory to be a flawed recording informed by current knowledge.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

117. "I can say your POSt is full of nonsense"

tl;dr

I don't respond to insults.

[intaglio]

118. Because you cannot n/t

[KittyWampus]

64. So instead of having the guts to call someone a troll outright, you post a link to do the same?

Because you haven't bothered to address the OP.

[last1standing]

66. Amazing. The OP distracts from the issues and you distract when the distraction is called out.

As I've said before, the Chamber of Commerce thanks you.

[KittyWampus]

69. It's a cowardly thing to accuse someone of being a troll indirectly. Offering no argument. It says

volumes about the small obnoxious clique that does this.

Skinner (57,821 posts)
1. This whole who-is-the-paid-shill witch hunt is disruptive nonsense.

It betrays an utter lack of creativity on the part of the people making the accusation. They are so convinced that they are right that they cannot imagine someone else might hold a different point of view in good faith. Either that or they are incapable of advocating for their own point of view on the merits.

[last1standing]

72. I've not accused any person on DU of being a paid shill.

Unlike yourself, I don't insult DUers.

I have stated repeatedly that certain posters on this forum, yourself included, repeatedly post exactly what the Chamber of Commerce and other right wing operations are paying people to post. If you are doing it for free, that's entirely your business.

[KittyWampus]

74. What exactly am I posting last1stand? Hm? What am I posting? I do NOT support the NSA overreach.

And that you and your obnoxious clique can't tell that says a lot about you.

Cause the only way you can stand to post on an internet forum is if you are surrounded by people who agree exactly with your own overblown distorted reality and anyone else is a paid troll.

I have been here a lot longer than you. And have seen plenty of bogus lefties. Many of whom were tombstoned.

So go ahead and continue your veiled accusations- it speaks to your inability to get along with others or debate.

[last1standing]

75. You seem upset so I'll excuse you're inability to check profiles.

Instead I'll do it for you. I joined DU in 2001 whereas you joined in 2002. That means I've been here longer. I know that's difficult for some to understand, especially those who feel the need to claim a greater right to post on this site, but based on your own critique, I have the better standing. Sure you've posted more comments, but looking at the quality of them I wouldn't try bragging on that score, either.

It appears you have the ability to spew insults at posters but not to actually join in with reasoned discussion. Can I suggest you take some time to learn that craft? Then explain the process to your own "obnoxious clique."

[HangOnKids]

99. Ah such a thing of beauty

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

90. PLEASE, stop calling your fellow DUers names, simply because they disagree with you.

On edit: And please do try to get your facts straight as it is something of a DU tradition that has served US long and well in making us the BEST place on the internet to have informed political discussions.

Thank you

[Union Scribe]

108. Haven't you been running around shouting "ratfucker!" at people?

Isn't that just a particular type of troll?

[RobertEarl]

3. It pleases you to be so naive?

None of your emails or internet browsing can be kept a secret.

And if they find somthing, all they have to do is get a judge to say yeah, go look (after they done looked) and they nail you.

Your arguments are getting evermore ridiculous.

[randome]

41. And the FBI is going through your garbage right now! Hurry! You can catch them!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[RC]

126. Not likely. The garbage goes in the garbage disposal in the sink.

The trash, on the other hand goes out by the curb, once a week, to make it easier for them to inspect it.
Get your terminology correct. It distracts from... Actually it doesn't. Your mislabeling fit the misdirection of your posts.

[AgingAmerican]

4. And domestic NSA spying still sucks

nt

[Marr]

6. LOL, I love it when you guys insist there's nothing to see here.

Also, arrest him-- he's endangered us all.

Also, it's old news we all already knew about.

And it isn't true.

[Life Long Dem]

76. There's something to see

And that's Greenwald lining his pockets with a book deal because he is a scammer fooling a bunch of simple minds with his hyperbole.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

92. Aporia

When you actually believe that the whole world has it wrong, but you have it right.

And then you wake up.

Think about it...

[Life Long Dem]

114. Yeah, I must have it wrong

When NSA stores my "number" (no name) for a match to a foreign terrorist to then hand it over to the FBI if a "number" matches. Yeah, I must have it wrong.

[deurbano]

127. Journalists write books about the stories they cover. (Woodward and Bernstein?)

"Lining his pockets with a book deal"? How does making a living as a writer discredit him?

He has already written 4 books (2006, 2007, 2008, 2011). Was he "scamming" in those, too?:

<<Greenwald's first book, How Would a Patriot Act? Defending American Values From a President Run Amok, was published by Working Assets in 2006. It was a New York Times bestseller,[59] and ranked #1 on Amazon.com both before its publication (due to pre-orders based on attention from 'UT' readers and other bloggers) and for several days after its release, ending its first week at #293.[60]

A Tragic Legacy, his second book, examines the presidency of George W. Bush "with an emphasis on his personality traits and beliefs that drove the presidency (along with an emphasis on how and why those personality traits have led to a presidency that has failed to historic proportions)."[61] Published in hardback by Crown (a division of Random House) on June 26, 2007 and reprinted in a paperback edition by Three Rivers Press on April 8, 2008, it too was a New York Times Best Seller, also ranking #1 for a day on Amazon.com's Non-Fiction Best Seller List and #2 the next day (also due to heavy "discussions and promotions by blogs—a campaign catalyzed by Jane Hamsher [at FireDogLake]", according to Greenwald).[62]

His third book, entitled Great American Hypocrites: Toppling the Big Myths of Republican Politics, was published by Random House in April 2008, the same month that Three Rivers Press reissued A Tragic Legacy in paperback.[63][64]

His fourth book, With Liberty and Justice for Some: How the Law Is Used to Destroy Equality and Protect the Powerful, was released by Metropolitan Books (of Henry Holt and Company) in October 2011.>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Greenwald

[Caretha]

129. You really didn't just say that, now did you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Greenwald

Greenwald has written four books, three of which have been New York Times bestsellers: How Would a Patriot Act? (2006); A Tragic Legacy (2007), and With Liberty and Justice for Some: How the Law Is Used to Destroy Equality and Protect the Powerful, released in October 2011. He also wrote Great American Hypocrites (2008).

Greenwald has received awards including the first Izzy Award for independent journalism, in 2009,[15] and the 2010 Online Journalism Award for Best Commentary.[16] Greenwald is a frequent speaker on college campuses, including Harvard Law School, Yale Law School, the University of Pennsylvania, Brown University, UCLA School of Law, the University of Wisconsin, the University of Maryland and others. He also appears on various radio and television programs as a guest political pundit.

Talk about simple minds....I will say you are definitely and expert when it comes to that

[AgingAmerican]

7. But, but...

all this focus on Snowden and Greenwald is handing victory to the Republicans!

As Republicans Make Millions Suffer, the Left’s Ideologues Obsess Over Edward Snowden

[JDPriestly]

8. Actually, the NSA can get what they want based on your metadata.

And what they want is to scare you as you investigate issues, the news, problems in your personal life and as you correspond with friends and family on the internet.

It is about intimidation, and frightening you so that you will not exercise a whole group of rights that the Constitution is supposed to protect because they are supposed to be inherent not just in your citizenship or residency here but in your very humanity.

I wish that I could unrecommend the OP in this thread. It is extremely misleading.

Anyone who has ever seen a phone bill knows who revealing it can be. Imagine having a list of all the websites your server has visited, all the e-mail addresses that contact yours and some details about all your internet searches.

And getting a warrant from the FISA court is obviously not that hard. If it were really difficult that court would have refused a greater percentage of the requests than it has.

From Mother Jones:

"The FISA system is broken," Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, told the Journal. "At the point that a FISA judge can compel the disclosure of millions of phone records of US citizens engaged in only domestic communications, unrelated to the collection of foreign intelligence…there is no longer meaningful judicial review."

But according to Timothy Edgar, a top privacy lawyer at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and the National Security Council under Bush and Obama, it's not quite as simple as the FISC rubber stamping nearly every application the government puts in front of it.

The reason so many orders are approved, he said, is that the Justice Department office that manages the process vets the applications rigorously... [S]o getting the order approved by the Justice Department lawyers is perhaps the biggest hurdle to approval. "The culture of that office is very reluctant to get a denial," he [told the Journal].

. . . .

This post has been corrected. A commenter pointed out that a previous version stated that the FISA court has rejected .0003 percent of all government surveillance requests. The correct percentage is .03. Apologies for the bad math.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/06/fisa-court-nsa-spying-opinion-reject-request

[avaistheone1]

9. k&r

[Ichingcarpenter]

17. +1 n/t

[Enthusiast]

34. Plus one...nt

[reusrename]

103. k&r

[questionseverything]

130. k&r

...

[Scurrilous]

10. Thanks.

K & R

[Gravitycollapse]

12. I kindly request that you stop being a shill for the establishment.

Thanks in advance.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. I'd be wasting my time to suggest you stop attacking other DUers and try focusing on the issues?

Yes, the article's shit, but so is turning up in a thread like this, ignoring the article and proceeding to attack whoever posted it...

[Divernan]

25. Ms. Crumble is from Canberra, Australia.

So I'd like to ask her/him, what's up with foreigners, who obviously are not Americans, let alone Democrats, posting so aggressively on DU to defend NSA and attack Snowden? Really! Seriously.

I'm sure everyone on DU would welcome your input as to what Australians and the Australian chamber of commerce think of NSA spying and Snowden's revelations of same. I would be very grateful if you posted your thoughts and opinions as an Australian on ANY of the issues discussed and debated on DU. But please honor the concept of full disclosure, (not your real name, of course) as to the perspective which informs and motivates your participation. Perhaps you HAVE posted such info in the past and I've missed it. Please include links, if possible.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Yes, and my only claim to fame is I may be the only Canberran at DU...

And that sets off the tone of what will probably be a very boring post from a person who lives in a very boring city

In answer to yr first question: I really don't know. While I don't read even half of the posts at DU, I haven't spotted any DUers who aren't American posting aggressively defending the NSA or attacking Mr Snowden. I may have missed them, though, as I kind of work on the default here that unless someone says something to indicate otherwise, that they're American.

When it comes to what Australians (all I know of the Australian Chamber of Commerce is they whine a lot whenever workers get pay rises or better conditions or tax breaks and I'm not sure they'd have time to break away from that to be interested in the NSA or Snowden) think, I can just go on anecdotal stuff from family, friends and colleagues, and what the media says. Media first. There was lots and lots in the media when the story broke in the Guardian, the Australian govt apparently asked the US whether Australian facilities were being used to do that wholesale data mining, and there was a lot of stuff in the media on the involvement of Pine Gap and more surprising Australian bases like HMAS Harman. But it's died down over the past few weeks. When it comes to people I know, my daughter's been following it and feels the same as me about it. On the other end of the scale, we were talking about whistleblowing at work today and I rattled off some names like Mordechai Vanunu, Edward Snowden, Bradley Manning and Julian Assange. I got a resounding 'huh? who?' from most of my colleagues to all of them except Julian Assange, because of course he's one of our tribe so of course everyone knows about him...

My own views (and I find my own posts too boring to bookmark and link back to) and I've posted a few times saying this sort of thing, is that Mr Snowden's a whistle-blower and not a criminal, but that he's not what the focus should be on. It should be on what he disclosed and what the NSA is doing, which is incredibly wrong. The behaviour of the US in exerting all the bullying and temper-tantrumming to try to make other countries do its bidding would embarrass the hell out of me if I were American. Some of the stuff I saw written about South American leaders verged on racist and of a colonial mindset, imo. And all that while the US harbours war criminals and those who've taken intelligence from their own countries to the US. It's so hypocritical. So my hope is that the brakes are put on the powers of the NSA, and that Mr Snowden lives a long and happy life far out of the reach of the US....

If you want to see ANY of the issues I've discussed in my more than ten years at DU, I'm all over the old I/P forum at DU2 where I was called a terror apologist, Hamas lover, and all sorts of other things that make these inane Snowden related back and forths of 'Sock puppet!' 'Snowden apologist!' 'Paid shill!' and on and on look very mild. One thing I learnt in the rough and tumble I/P forum of the early years of DU was that while it might feel great to tell the opposing side what a bunch of wankers they are and how you'd get more value out of watching an episode of the X-Factor than reading their repeat-it-by-rote crap, people stop listening to you if all yr doing is flinging poo around. And as more than likely yr opposition aren't going to be swayed by anything you say when you do discuss whatever issue it is, it's people reading and not posting much that need to be the audience to keep in mind. I'm part of that audience, and the incessant insults and attacks I see seem to be the furthest thing possible from the actual issue of Snowden and the NSA. If the person I replied to originally hasn't nodded off of boredom before they get this far, I hope they keep that in mind when they post

[greatauntoftriplets]

53. So what if she's from Australia?

[Violet_Crumble]

110. I guess they wanted to show off how they can click on a profile link...

...but hadn't quite mastered the art of clicking on the search button to see by my past posts in GD that I'm no foreign shill blah blah for the NSA...

Nice to see you again, greataunt! I'm suffering from a bit of withdrawal at the moment and miss the gang from last term

[greatauntoftriplets]

116. It seemed a pointless reason to criticize you.

I'm definitely suffering from MIRT withdrawal to the point of feeling fairly useless around here.

[KittyWampus]

65. Wow, you are quite the sleuth. You've determined 2 DU'ers are from abroad and coyly intimate they

are paid trolls.

And I am quite sure if I alerted your posts they would be allowed to stand which says a lot about the state of DU.

[Violet_Crumble]

111. Yeah, I kind of picked up on the pro-NSA shill bit. It was pretty amusing...

I dare to speak up about attacking the post rather than the DUer, so that automatically makes me one of those aggressive foreign non-Democrat NSA supporters that are apparently all over DU. That one kind of backfired a bit

[Divernan]

26. "New Snowden Leak: Australia's place in US spying web"

Would VERY much appreciate your thoughts on this report out of Australia, especially since you are from Canberra, the capitol city and one of the 4 Australian centers involved in NSA's collection program.

http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/new-snowden-leak-australias-place-in-us-spying-web/50142

Ex-NSA contractor and whistleblower Edward Snowden has disclosed his first set of documents outlining Australia’s role in NSA surveillance programs, picking out four facilities in the country that contribute heavily to US spying.

The locations of dozens of the US’s and associated countries signal collection sites have been revealed by Snowden, who leaked classified National Security Agency maps to US journalist Glenn Greenwald, which were then published in the Brazilian newspaper “O Globo.”

The sites all play a role in the collection of data and interception of internet traffic and telecommunications on a global level.

Australian centers involved in the NSA’s data collection program, codenamed X-Keyscore, include Joint Defence Facility Pine Gap in central Australia and three Australian Signals Directorate facilities: the Shoal Bay Receiving Station in the country’s north, the Australian Defence Satellite Communications Facility on the west coast, and the naval communications station HMAS Harman outside the capital, Canberra

[PSPS]

14. Sorry, you're a day late. Yesterday was "#5 Sunday."

Worshiper/Apologist Hit Parade:

1. This is nothing new
2. I have nothing to hide
3. What are you, a freeper?
4. But Obama is better than Christie/Romney/Bush/Hitler
5. Greenwald/Flaherty/Gillum/Apuzzo/Braun is a hack
6. We have red light cameras, so this is no big deal
7. Corporations have my data anyway
8. At least Obama is trying
9. This is just the media trying to take Obama down
10. It's a misunderstanding/you are confused
11. You're a racist
12. Nobody cares about this anyway / "unfounded fears"
13. I don't like Snowden, therefore we must disregard all of this
14. Other countries do it

[Mojorabbit]

15. +1000 nt

[AverageJoe90]

21. -infinity. Fuck Snowden and the horse he rode in on. n/t

[PSPS]

51. No, that's a #13.

[Cha]

28. No, it's simply that Glenn Greenwald is a fucking idiot.

[HangOnKids]

101. I know break ups are hard Cha

But it would probably be better if you just let this one go.

[DCBob]

42. Actually the only issue is whether its legal and a useful tool for law enforcement.

The rest of that is noise.

[Bonobo]

16. We can add this OP to the list

Of your Snowden OPs:

OP Ed Shultz discussing Walker on MSNBC n/t flamingdem 10:10 PM General Discussion
OP As Republicans Make Millions Suffer, the Left’s Ideologues Obsess Over Edward Snowden flamingdem 7:07 PM General Discussion
OP Great show on MSNBC right now on DETROIT! flamingdem Yesterday General Discussion
OP Kremlin releases new "selfies" of Vladimir Putin on weekend trip flamingdem Friday General Discussion
OP The New Yorker has Anthony Weiner on its next cover flamingdem Friday General Discussion
OP This message was self-deleted by its author flamingdem Friday General Discussion
OP Snowden Damage Still Being Assessed; ‘Deepest Of Deep Secrets’ At Risk, Says STRATCOM’s Kehler flamingdem Thursday General Discussion
OP The Sexually Annotated Weiner Apology Email - R (X?) Rated flamingdem Thursday General Discussion
OP Snowden's Russian lawyer Anatoly Kucherena spoke to the state-owned channel Russia Today flamingdem Thursday General Discussion
OP Contractors Providing Background Checks For NSA Caught Falsifying Reports, Interviewing The Dead flamingdem Thursday General Discussion
OP Snowden Liveblog: Temporary Asylum in Russia? flamingdem Wednesday General Discussion
OP Anthony Weiner vs. Carlos Danger: the politics of the post-paramour era flamingdem Wednesday General Discussion
OP This message was self-deleted by its author flamingdem Tuesday General Discussion
OP The Convergence of the ‘Glenn Greenwald Left’ and the ‘Alex Jones Right’ flamingdem Tuesday General Discussion
OP A Letter to Edward Snowden Prometheus among the cannibals - Swoon! flamingdem Jul 20 General Discussion
OP Vladimir Putin Is Not an Altruist - streetwiseprofessor.com flamingdem Jul 19 General Discussion
OP How a Wild Theoretical Claim About the NSA Magically Transformed Into Factual Reality flamingdem Jul 19 General Discussion
OP Snowden in Moscow by Israel Shamir - Counterpunch flamingdem Jul 18 General Discussion
OP In Snowden's Russia Opposition Leader and Putin Foe Convicted flamingdem Jul 18 General Discussion
OP Not at all making himself the story, Greenwald to make next shocking NSA revelations, in a book -KOS flamingdem Jul 18 General Discussion
OP Russia's image to improve if Snowden gets refuge - Pushkov flamingdem Jul 17 General Discussion
OP Blogger C. Fitzpatrick on Snowden's future in Russia and his deadmans's switch flamingdem Jul 16 General Discussion
OP The Google Trends graph of interest in Snowden vs. NSA stories past 30 days flamingdem Jul 16 General Discussion
OP Snowden’s Endgame - Game theory suggests how his odyssey might end. flamingdem Jul 15 General Discussion
OP Bob Cesca on Greenwald's "Worst Nightmare" Threat flamingdem Jul 15 General Discussion
OP Snowed on Snowden flamingdem Jul 15 General Discussion
OP Russian Officials Say They Didn’t Receive an Asylum Request From Snowden flamingdem Jul 14 General Discussion
OP Down the Rabbithole, Through the Looking Glass -- to the Grand Duchy of Derp flamingdem Jul 14 General Discussion
OP Greenwald says Snowden Documents Could Be 'Worst Nightmare' for US (Patriot NOT) flamingdem Jul 13 General Discussion
OP The White House is turning up the pressure on Moscow over Snowden. Will it make any difference? flamingdem Jul 13 General Discussion
OP Free Syrian Army commander killed by rivals flamingdem Jul 13 General Discussion
OP Quinnipiac Poll on Gridlock: 68% of Americans say R leaders doing too little to compromise with pres flamingdem Jul 13 General Discussion
OP From Snowden, Putin gets a rare reprieve from unremitting opprobrium flamingdem Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Snowden’s… Defection? flamingdem Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Wikileaks is mad! Calls Obama an authoritarian! flamingdem Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Discarded Romney Campaign Swag Now a Huge Hit in African Villages flamingdem Jul 12 General Discussion
OP The Story Of Edward Snowden As Told By Austin Powers GIFs flamingdem Jul 11 General Discussion
OP Snowden Post for the Road: Where's Edward? Transiberian Railroad Route etc. flamingdem Jul 11 General Discussion
OP Aeroflop - Snowden takes his toll on US-Russian relations flamingdem Jul 11 General Discussion
OP Daniel Ellsberg's Downfall: A Trifecta of Shilling, Conspiracy Theories, and Lies - People's View flamingdem Jul 10 General Discussion
OP EU countries to Bolivia: We did not delay, deny, cancel your flight over our territories flamingdem Jul 10 General Discussion
OP OAS meeting on Bolivian plane incident: It's Bolivia that should apologize flamingdem Jul 9 General Discussion
OP Andrea Mitchell mentioned a report that Venzuela has sent a plane to Moscow for Snowden flamingdem Jul 9 General Discussion
OP This message was self-deleted by its author flamingdem Jul 9 General Discussion
OP On the Verge of Improved US-Cuban Relations - Will Snowden Undo It? flamingdem Jul 9 General Discussion
OP Generation Snowden, Part II: A little learning is dangerous. Less learning, more so. flamingdem Jul 9 General Discussion
OP Matrix: who is Edward Snowden? flamingdem Jul 9 General Discussion
OP Snowden may have opted for Nicaragua as asylum destination (Kuwait News Agency -only source so far) flamingdem Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Perhaps Wikileaks prefers Nicaragua to Venezuela, backed with evidence flamingdem Jul 8 General Discussion
OP It's 10pm in Moscow, do you know where your Snowden is? Venezuela tweets flamingdem Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Only read this if you don't mind another Snowden speculation post flamingdem Jul 8 General Discussion
OP 'So proud of our Wikileaks daughter' ¿Dónde está Sarah amiga de Assange? flamingdem Jul 7 General Discussion
OP MSNBC: Venezuela has given a 24 hour deadline to Snowden for his asylum decision flamingdem Jul 7 General Discussion
OP Snowden: Western EU in bed with' NSA - Interview Wikileaks hactivist Appelbaum pre Hong Kong flamingdem Jul 7 General Discussion
OP Austria did not search Morales jet in Vienna said Austria's president flamingdem Jul 7 General Discussion
OP A Direct Timeline of Glenn Greenwald, His Front Group and the Fugitive Edward Snowden flamingdem Jul 7 General Discussion
OP Russian Official Says Venezuela Is the ‘Best Solution’ for Snowden - NYT flamingdem Jul 7 General Discussion
OP US request for extradition of Edward Snowden - full text (Venezuela) flamingdem Jul 6 General Discussion
OP This message was self-deleted by its author flamingdem Jul 5 General Discussion
OP Why Libertarian Organizations Like The Cato Institute Love The NSA Outrage flamingdem Jul 5 General Discussion
OP Inside Edward Snowden's luxury hotel which has its own swimming pool, Turkish baths, gym and library flamingdem Jul 5 General Discussion
OP Disinformation and manipulation created the Evogate narrative - Starting with Portugal flamingdem Jul 4 General Discussion
OP Iceland Congress puts forward bill to grant Snowden citizenship barring fisheries legislation flamingdem Jul 4 General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald: New bombshell coming flamingdem Jul 4 General Discussion
OP France, Spain and Portugal: We Didn’t Deny Landing Rights to Morales’ Plane flamingdem Jul 4 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden's digital 'misuse' has created problems, says Ban Ki-moon flamingdem Jul 3 General Discussion
OP France, Portugal to allow Bolivian plane to fly through their airspace, Spain allowed refueling -NYT flamingdem Jul 3 General Discussion
OP UPDATE: Glenn Greenwald 5:30ish on Chris Hayes msnbc pm EST flamingdem Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Snowden's US lawyer is Libertarian "powerhouse" Bruce Fein flamingdem Jul 2 General Discussion
OP Evo Morales' Presidential plane rerouted to Austria after false rumors of Snowden onboard flamingdem Jul 2 General Discussion
OP Snowden’s Worst-Case Scenario: What If No Countries Take Him? - TIME flamingdem Jul 2 General Discussion
OP Updating List of Snowden Asylum Options: flamingdem Jul 2 General Discussion
OP Update: CHINA added to asylum request list (wtf?) Snowden Slams Obama As Asylum List Revealed flamingdem Jul 2 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden jumps the shark in Moscow - Jonathan Capehart flamingdem Jul 1 General Discussion
OP American surveillance may kill US-EU free-trade talks flamingdem Jul 1 General Discussion
OP Snowden Asks 15 Countries for Asylum – LA Times flamingdem Jul 1 General Discussion
OP Russian and US security services to work on solution to Snowden fate flamingdem Jul 1 General Discussion
OP Maduro to open Hugo Chavez street in Moscow, attend gas summit flamingdem Jul 1 General Discussion
OP Still time to place your bets. Where will Snowden be by this time next week? flamingdem Jul 1 General Discussion
OP Bernie up next on Ed nt flamingdem Jun 30 General Discussion
OP Searching for Edward Snowden in Moscow’s Terminal E flamingdem Jun 29 General Discussion
OP 'Tensions don't exist': WikiLeaks refutes media reports about 'Ecuadorean disarray' flamingdem Jun 29 General Discussion
OP Ecuador in talks with Biden over Snowden flamingdem Jun 29 General Discussion
OP In twist Univision uses metadata to determine authorship of Snowden's "Safe Pass" - ABC flamingdem Jun 29 General Discussion
OP Snowden found using the "cone of silence" flamingdem Jun 28 General Discussion
OP Terrorists harder to track after Snowden's leaks, officials say (LA Times) flamingdem Jun 28 General Discussion
OP NBC: Snowden's father floats terms for son's return flamingdem Jun 28 General Discussion
OP John Roberts Shows Cold-Blooded Calculation In His Supreme Court Rulings flamingdem Jun 28 General Discussion
OP Ecuador nixes trade deal, offers US cash for 'education about human rights' flamingdem Jun 27 General Discussion
OP The Errors of Edward Snowden and His Global Hypocrisy Tour - Vanity Fair flamingdem Jun 27 General Discussion
OP Snowden Possibly to Remain in Russia - WikiLeaks update: Venezuela possible option flamingdem Jun 26 General Discussion
OP Iranian woman spent 10 months in the Moscow Airport flamingdem Jun 26 General Discussion
OP Why China Let Snowden Go - New Yorker flamingdem Jun 26 General Discussion
OP Twitter feud between Joy Reid and Glenn Greenwald, challenge issed to Greenwald flamingdem Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Snowden Realpolitik: Why Russia won't hand over Edward Snowden flamingdem Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Double down on Obama Hate w/Climate Change + Snowden! (Wapo Editorial) flamingdem Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Putin Rules Out Extradition for Snowden in Russia Airport flamingdem Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Oslo Pirate Party Norway: - Snowden Passed Through Norway to Iceland UPDATE: nein, nein, nein flamingdem Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Greenwald on now with Chris Hayes MSNBC flamingdem Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Update: Dollars to donuts Snowden is in the Venezuelan Embassy in Moscow flamingdem Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Greenwald sweats Snowden's statements - Washington Post flamingdem Jun 24 General Discussion
OP UPI Update: Snowden still in Moscow flamingdem Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Why Edward Snowden Didn't Go To Havana flamingdem Jun 24 General Discussion
OP What's causing the Snowden's trip delay and what might be happening? flamingdem Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Ed Schultz: Snowden not a patriot, I don't trust him, I'll go with Obama and his assessment flamingdem Jun 23 General Discussion
OP On Moscow Layover, Snowden Finds No Friend in Putin (info squeeze in Moscow and Havana hmm) flamingdem Jun 23 General Discussion
OP finish this sentence: Snowden gave intelligence about US hacking in China because _______ flamingdem Jun 23 General Discussion
OP Snowden reveals US hacking into Tsinghua University in Beijing to South China Morning Post flamingdem Jun 23 General Discussion
OP US is 'biggest villain' for IT spying: Xinhua flamingdem Jun 23 General Discussion
OP Icelandic businessman readies plane to fly Snowden to asylum flamingdem Jun 23 General Discussion
OP Ed Show on MSNBC now 5pm EST on 2014: get after radical Republican Governors flamingdem Jun 22 General Discussion
OP Witness: Hastings’ speeding car ‘shook my car like a freight truck going by’ flamingdem Jun 21 General Discussion
OP On Glenn Greenwald and His Fans - The Nation flamingdem Jun 21 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden: China's Useful Idiot? (The Atlantic) flamingdem Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Will China Protect Edward Snowden? - China Digital Times flamingdem Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Snowden’s asset: NSA hacking exposer knows secrets China wants - RT flamingdem Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Syria calls Egypt move a U.S.-Israeli conspiracy flamingdem Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Ed Shultz covering Snowden w/Tom Hartmann + Adam Greene flamingdem Jun 16 General Discussion
OP SNOWDEN牌照妖鏡照出香港土炮偽君子香港販民派/肛門黨/妓協/ࠒ flamingdem Jun 15 General Discussion
OP Snowden claims China hacked since 2009 + faux outrage Beijing style flamingdem Jun 15 General Discussion
OP Beijing 'will be very discreet' in dealing with HK over Snowden case flamingdem Jun 15 General Discussion
OP Peter King just made sense re: Snowden on msnbc flamingdem Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Convicted U.S. spy Christopher Boyce: 'Snowden is doomed' flamingdem Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Snowden and Greenwald Beginning to Self-Destruct; ‘The Nation’ and ‘Mother Jones’ Raise Questions flamingdem Jun 14 General Discussion
OP U.S. Fears Edward Snowden May Defect to China: Sources flamingdem Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Does China regret allowing Snowden to stay in Hong Kong? - Bloomberg flamingdem Jun 12 General Discussion
OP CNN has live footage of riot force attack on protesters in Taksim Square, Istanbul flamingdem Jun 12 General Discussion

[Ichingcarpenter]

18. +1 n/t

[Gravitycollapse]

19. Jesus. That's even more than I thought.

[OnyxCollie]

22. That's a tad excessive.

Like restraining order excessive.

[neverforget]

29. Lol! someone is obsessed.

[Fumesucker]

31. To be entirely fair, a couple of those don't seem to be about Glennward Snowwald

But it's definitely an interesting list.

[JoePhilly]

46. LOL ... love it!

[Enthusiast]

38. Plus one! Holy crap! n/t

[Kolesar]

40. You stayed up until four A.M. to post that?

The tenth grade melodrama grinds on .
9 posts hidden in 90 days: -180

[Capt. Obvious]

52. You're not far behind

Jury
Willing to serve on a DU Jury: Yes
Chance of serving on a Jury: 20% (explain)
2000 or more total posts: +20
200 or more days of membership: +20
20 or more posts in the last 90 days: +20
Star member: +40
4 posts hidden in 90 days: -80
TOTAL: 20

[Kolesar]

63. Nobody asked you, Captain Buttinski...eom

[HangOnKids]

100. Wow what wit, what's next poopy pants? n/t

[Kolesar]

113. You are kind of a 'bag on this thread too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3377634

[Capt. Obvious]

115. Oh, and someone asked you to post Bonobo's transparency page?

Did the plank you hurled at him come from your own eye?

[Kolesar]

121. The tenth grade melodrama grinds on

[Capt. Obvious]

122. Someday you'll graduate from high school

Your comments in this thread are like BP complaining about the Exxon oil spill in Arkansas.

[HangOnKids]

132. High School?

I'll just crack up about that.

[Waiting For Everyman]

48. Wow! That's in spam territory.

Thanks, Bonobo, for keeping a list! I knew it was way excessive but that's worse than I thought. Add that to the other OTT poster, and it's a quite a picture isn't it? I wonder what motivates so much "activity" and "interest".

[Bonobo]

49. I didn't make the list.

The first time I saw it posted, it was by Muriel Volestranger (sic)

[Waiting For Everyman]

56. Due credit

to muriel_volestranger. Thanks, MV! I marvel at your patience.

[whatchamacallit]

50. Nice work Bonobo

Please send this list to the admins and mirt.

[bunnies]

55. I guess you must feel that way about Catherina too...

whose "list" is just about as long.

[whatchamacallit]

61. Who compares a noob on a singleminded mission of distortion

to a respected 5 year member with a wide spectrum of posts? I guess you do.

[KittyWampus]

67. Who the heck are you to call anyone a noob? BTW, where's the list of Catherina's posts?

[whatchamacallit]

68. If you find the comparison

of Catherina to Flamingdem valid (lol) shouldn't you be providing a list like bonobo's?

[KittyWampus]

70. Why? You and your small, obnoxious clique are the ones involved in a witch hunt.

[whatchamacallit]

73. I think you're mixed up and heading in the wrong direction

Hmm... maybe it's your flight plan... The small obnoxious clique is on the other side. You know, the ones that spam DU with 100 Snowden and Greenwald hit pieces a day, that only get rec'd by the same 20 fools.

[bunnies]

91. Oh Im sorry.

I thought we were talking about Snowden posts. Their numbers of snowden & greenwald posts are just about the same. Try advanced search, author, keyword, date range. You'll learn something.

[HangOnKids]

98. Gee I thought you were all about keeping harmony on DU

Maybe that was some other bunnie poster. I must have you confused with someone else.

[bunnies]

119. Its the bullying and the piling on that really gets me.

Youre right. I try to stay out of it. Probably shoulda in this case, too. But that post just really struck me. We have a bunch of people on both sides really posting a shitload about this guy and to say that one particular poster should be kicked off DU for it just seemed especially hateful. Ive seen that damn list in multiple threads and never commented in on it. It gets posted and *poof* the pile-on begins.

I in no way meant it as a slight against Catherina. Ive had good conversations with her. And I really dont care how much a DUer posts on a subject that interests them. But the someone alert mirt bs... well, I had a moment. I hope you understand.

[randome]

79. But her list is composed of at least a few bogus stories. So there is a difference.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Bobbie Jo]

87. good lord, yes.

Just wondering what level of OCD is involved to actually take the time to chronicle such a list.

Oh wait....

[FSogol]

88. Seriously. Pretty scary. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

93. Add these two groups together... I wonder what the total is?

What I find odd though is Snowden hightailed it on May 20, and this one didn't start posting about him until June 9 according to a DU site search. I wonder what the delay was... any ideas?

OP Beyond his Moscow airport limbo, indignities await Edward Snowden ProSense Yesterday General Discussion
OP Greenwald To Appear At Town Hall For N.J. Senate Candidate Rush Holt ProSense Yesterday General Discussion
OP When It Comes To Extraditions, Russia Often Cooperates ProSense Saturday General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald To Testify Before Congress ProSense Friday General Discussion
OP ERIC HOLDER TO RUSSIA: We Will Not Torture Or Seek The Death Penalty For Edward Snowden ProSense Friday General Discussion
OP Senate pushes sanctions on nations aiding Snowden ProSense Thursday General Discussion
OP Bolivia forgives European countries for air space incident ProSense Wednesday General Discussion
OP Updated: Fugitive Snowden to stay for now at Moscow airport: Russian lawyer ProSense Wednesday General Discussion
OP Attitudes Shift Against Snowden; Fewer than Half Say NSA is Unjustified ProSense Wednesday General Discussion
OP Senator Slams Domestic Spying: ‘Secret Law Has No Place In America’ ProSense Tuesday General Discussion
OP Snowden plans to settle and work in Russia – lawyer to RT ProSense Tuesday General Discussion
OP Leaker Snowden hopes to be able to leave airport by Wednesday: lawyer ProSense Jul 22 General Discussion
OP Pew poll: Many Venezuelans want better relations with the U.S. ProSense Jul 20 General Discussion
OP Biden calls Brazil's Rousseff over NSA spying tensions ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP U.S. court renews surveillance program exposed by Snowden ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP Two U.S. senators suggest moving G20 from Russia over Snowden ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP Kerry talked to Venezuela about Snowden: US ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP Oath Keepers Heart Edward Snowden! ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP Russia says knows of no plan for Snowden to seek citizenship ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP Snowden has no crediblity, and deserves no thanks. ProSense Jul 18 General Discussion
OP Guardian Journalist to Write Book on Surveillance ProSense Jul 17 General Discussion
OP What did Jimmy Carter mean by this ProSense Jul 17 General Discussion
OP Sen. Tester Calls On Snowden To Return To America To ‘Face The Music’ ProSense Jul 17 General Discussion
OP "PHOTO: Application for temporary asylum in Russia written by #NSA leaker Edward #Snowden" (WTF?) ProSense Jul 16 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden Declares Himself Torture-Proof ProSense Jul 16 General Discussion
OP Fugitive Edward Snowden applies for asylum in Russia ProSense Jul 16 General Discussion
OP Carl Bernstein: Greenwald 'out of line' (updated) ProSense Jul 15 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: Snowden Docs Contain NSA 'Blueprint' ProSense Jul 14 General Discussion
OP N.S.A. Leaks Stir Plans in Russia to Control Net ProSense Jul 14 General Discussion
OP Greenwald tries to do damage control ProSense Jul 13 General Discussion
OP Snowden documents could be 'worst nightmare' for U.S.: journalist ProSense Jul 13 General Discussion
OP Russia 'has not received' Snowden asylum bid ProSense Jul 13 General Discussion
OP Carney responds to question about Snowden meeting with human rights groups. ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Obama Spoke With Putin On Snowden, ‘Cooperation On Counter-Terrorism’ ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: Snowden asylum 'unlikely' to stop me from publishing leaks ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP If Snowden's case as a whistleblower is so strong, why is he afraid to face the consequences? ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP How the Snowden Affair Became a Freak Show ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden caught in asylum catch-22 ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Updated: US ambassador to Russia disputes claim sent message to Snowden ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Russia says Snowden could stay if he stops harming US ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP "Big news is that #Snowden is applying for political asylum in Russia" (updated) ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Purported E-Mail From Snowden Asks for Meeting With Rights Groups ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP The ACLU's own text contradicts its case for Snowden's asylum bid. ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Brazil May Seek to Speak With Snowden as Spy Allegations Spread ProSense Jul 10 General Discussion
OP Which Other Countries Are ‘In Bed’ With The NSA? ProSense Jul 10 General Discussion
OP Brazil lawmaker: US spying won't hurt relations ProSense Jul 10 General Discussion
OP Snowden: I never gave any information to Chinese or Russian governments ProSense Jul 10 General Discussion
OP Fugitive Snowden likely Venezuela bound, says U.S. journalist (Greenwald) ProSense Jul 9 General Discussion
OP Wikileaks: Snowden Has Not Formally Accepted Asylum Anywhere Yet ProSense Jul 9 General Discussion
OP North Korea uses Snowden in propaganda video ProSense Jul 9 General Discussion
OP Snowden Mentioned ‘Direct Access’ In Interview With The Guardian ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Irony ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Here's what the Snowden videos did ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald: Edward Snowden "Satisfied" by Global Outrage over U.S. Surveillance Operations ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Snowden affair clouds U.S. attempts to press China to curb cyber theft ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Snowden Anticipated Being Accused Of Violating Espionage Act ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Josh Marshall: Kinda Curious What That Means (Ellsberg's claim) ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Der Spiegel: Do private companies help the NSA? Snowden: Yes. But it's hard to prove that. ProSense Jul 7 General Discussion
OP Snowden: Other nations use NSA surveillance info ProSense Jul 7 General Discussion
OP Snowden isn't a whistleblower because...the law. ProSense Jul 6 General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald: Edward Snowden Confirmed WikiLeaks Statement Was Written By Him ProSense Jul 6 General Discussion
OP A big "FU" to the United States by other countries? ProSense Jul 6 General Discussion
OP More on Venezuela's offer (Is everyone sure this isn't rhetoric?) ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP Will Venezuela follow through on Snowden offer? ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP White House: no comment on Venezuela's asylum offer to Snowden ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP Icelandic Lawmaker Claims Snowden Expressed ‘Gratitude’ For Citizenship Vote ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP Wikileaks: Snowden Has Requested Asylum From Six More Countries ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP Who started the rumor about Snowden being on President Morales' plane? ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP South American leftist leaders rally to Bolivia's side in Snowden saga ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP Snowden’s asylum request rejected (Norway) ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP What Kind Of Coward Is Edward Snowden? ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP Obama, Merkel agree to talks on U.S. spying ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP Russia shows growing impatience over Snowden's airport stay ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP Updated: France, Italy reject Snowden asylum request ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP The hyperbole is getting thick. ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Why Won’t Anyone Take Edward Snowden? ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Wikileaks Spokesman: U.S. ‘Obviously’ Responsible For ‘Outrageous’ Incident With Bolivian President’ ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Audio purportedly from inside the cockpit of Bolivian President Evo Morales’s flight ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Wikileaks Spokesman Insists Snowden Statement Is Genuine ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP The Guardian: Snowden Is A Whistleblower, Not A Spy ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Why are countries still cooperating with the United States on Snowden? ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Why didn't Bolivia's President give Snowden a lift? ProSense Jul 2 General Discussion
OP Bolivia: Presidential plane forced to land after false rumors of Snowden onboard ProSense Jul 2 General Discussion
OP There Are 12 Million Stateless People Around The World, But Edward Snowden Isn’t One Of Them ProSense Jul 2 General Discussion
OP Updated: India, Brazil reject Snowden’s asylum request; Snowden withdraws request to Russia ProSense Jul 2 General Discussion
OP Rafael Correa: we helped Snowden by mistake ProSense Jul 1 General Discussion
OP Josh Marshall: "Snowden’s pretty screwed." ProSense Jul 1 General Discussion
OP Report: Edward Snowden Breaks Silence (updated) ProSense Jul 1 General Discussion
OP Who should Edward Snowden be compared to? ProSense Jun 30 General Discussion
OP Assange stands by Edward Snowden as Ecuador's Correa reprimands consul ProSense Jun 30 General Discussion
OP With Julian Assange Taking the Spotlight, Edward Snowden's Future Looks Grim ProSense Jun 30 General Discussion
OP Ecuadoran President Correa Gives VP Biden An Earful ProSense Jun 29 General Discussion
OP Am I missing something about the latest revelations regarding the EU? ProSense Jun 29 General Discussion
OP Analysis: Snowden's options appear to narrow in bid to evade U.S. arrest ProSense Jun 28 General Discussion
OP Jimmy Carter on Snowden: "He's obviously violated the laws of America, for which he's responsible." ProSense Jun 28 General Discussion
OP Ecuador cools on Edward Snowden asylum as Assange frustration grows ProSense Jun 28 General Discussion
OP Ecuador has no plans to halt commerce ties over Snowden: Correa ProSense Jun 27 General Discussion
OP Exclusive: Documents Illuminate Ecuador’s Spying Practices ProSense Jun 27 General Discussion
OP The Errors of Edward Snowden and His Global Hypocrisy Tour ProSense Jun 27 General Discussion
OP Ecuador Says Snowden Asylum Document Unauthorized ProSense Jun 27 General Discussion
OP Ecuador denies giving Snowden a travel document: report ProSense Jun 26 General Discussion
OP Spanish judge Baltasar Garzon says his legal team won’t represent NSA leaker Edward Snowden ProSense Jun 26 General Discussion
OP Russia spies may be chatting with "tasty morsel" Snowden ProSense Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Putin Says Dealing With Snowden Issue ‘Like Shearing A Pig’ ProSense Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden never crossed border into Russia, says foreign minister ProSense Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Op-Ed In Chinese Communist Party Newspaper Blasts Washington Over Snowden, Hacking ProSense Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Hayes Challenges Greenwald: Snowden Undermines Defenders If He Goes To Nations That Hate Free Press ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: I Didn’t Even Know Snowden’s Name Until He Was In Hong Kong ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Snowden plans more leaks...will let foreign press decide if leaks endanger Americans ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Snowden’s Attorney: ‘He Never Anticipated This Would Be Such A Big Matter’ ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP The problem with defending Snowden. ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Snowden is one issue and NSA oversight is another. ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Julian Assange Won’t Say When Wikileaks Began Working With Ed Snowden ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Report: Kremlin Says Russia Didn’t Know Snowden Was Coming To Moscow ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Why Ecuador? ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Which word best describes Snowden ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP China Said to Have Made Call to Let Leaker Depart ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP Maybe Hong Kong is simply relieved to be rid of Snowden ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP Schumer: ‘Putin Always Seems Eager To Put A Finger In the Eye Of The U.S.’ ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP Sen. Paul To Snowden: Don’t ‘Cozy Up’ To Russian Government ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP Greenwald Thinks Snowden’s Final Destination Is Still ‘Up In The Air’ ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP NYT: Snowden "staying in an apartment... controlled by the Hong Kong government’s security branch" ProSense Jun 22 General Discussion
OP The ACLU message isn't going to help Snowden. ProSense Jun 22 General Discussion
OP Snowden spy row grows as US is accused of hacking China ProSense Jun 22 General Discussion
OP Snowden is going to be prosecuted. ProSense Jun 22 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: Snowden Charges Show Obama’s ‘Vindictive Mentality’... ProSense Jun 22 General Discussion
OP Is it OK to criticize Edward Snowden? ProSense Jun 21 General Discussion
OP NYT: Documents Detail N.S.A. Surveillance Rules ProSense Jun 20 General Discussion
OP Analysis: Why Edward Snowden isn't a whistle-blower, legally speaking ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP What if Snowden didn't have authorized access? ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP Greenwald is accusing President Obama of making "false" claims, but hasn't backed up his claims ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP Where is the additional information Snowden says he's going to release? ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP Iceland received informal approach over Snowden seeking asylum ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP Excerpt: Obama talks NSA in Charlie Rose interview. ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP Pew poll: Public Split over Impact of NSA Leak, But Most Want Snowden Prosecuted ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP NSA veteran: "So he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor." ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald Justifies Snowden’s Fear He Will Be Killed: U.S. ‘Targeted’ Americans In The Past ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP NYT editor's blog: Snowden’s Questionable New Turn ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden Says More Info About "Direct Access" Is In the Works ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Snowden: Obama Should Call For Special Committee To Review NSA Programs ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Snowden: I Didn’t Reveal Any Operations Against ‘Legitimate’ Military Targets ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Snowden basically admits the "direct access" claim was bullshit. ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP "the biggest intelligence leak in NSA history is answering your questions " ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Fleeing the country to avoid prosecution makes Snowden a coward. ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden To Participate In Online Q&A Today ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden 'not a Chinese spy' - Beijing ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP DNI denies NSA analysts can tap calls without a warrant ProSense Jun 16 General Discussion
OP Jerrold Nadler Does Not Think the NSA Can Listen to U.S. Phone Calls ProSense Jun 16 General Discussion
OP Schieffer Destroys Snowden: ‘I Don’t Remember Martin Luther King Jr. Or Rosa Parks Hiding In China’ ProSense Jun 16 General Discussion
OP Hong Kong rallies in the rain for Edward Snowden ProSense Jun 15 General Discussion
OP Snowden’s Leaks on China Could Affect Its Role in His Fate ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP While working for spies, Snowden was secretly prolific online ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Kevin Drum: ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: Edward Snowden's worst fear has not been realised – thankfully (cites polls) ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Snowden Is Using 'Specific' Evidence of the U.S. Hacking China to Stay Out of Jail ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Snowden Is Not Welcome In The U.K. ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Leaker's Ties to China Probed ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Guardian "walked back the 'direct access' claim made in Greenwald’s original article" ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Report: Snowden Stored Documents On Thumb Drive ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Poll: Majority Says Snowden Did A Good Thing, But He Should Be Prosecuted ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Finding the right balance between security and liberty ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP NSA Director Says Leaker’s Wiretapping Ability Claims Are ‘False’ ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Report: Feds Hunted For Snowden Before He Went Public ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Guardian issues statement in reply to Rep. Peter King ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald to Pete King: Bring it on ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP Josh Marshall: Curious ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: “We Did Not Want To Just Go And Arbitrarily Disclose Things’ ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP [Snowden]...Showed Hong Kong Newspaper Documents Revealing US Hacking Attacks On China (updated 2x) ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden Reportedly Gives Interview To Chinese News Outlet ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP NYT editorial: Surveillance: Snowden Doesn’t Rise to Traitor ProSense Jun 11 General Discussion
OP Eugene Robinson: Edward Snowden’s NSA leaks show we need a debate ProSense Jun 11 General Discussion
OP Bush broke the law. President Obama followed it. ProSense Jun 11 General Discussion
OP AP Editor: Do Not Describe Edward Snowden As A 'Whistleblower' ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP A Very Real Issue (private contractors) ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP "Most significant" leak in history, and likely one of the dumbest. ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald: I Know Where Snowden Is ‘Generally’ ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP Snowden Helped Guardian Reporter With Secure Communication System ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP Ron Paul: ‘We Should Be Thankful’ For Edward Snowden ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP The "biggest leak in US political history" ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP DOJ: No Comment On Snowden ProSense Jun 9 General Discussion
OP What happens if you don't take the loyalty oath to Edward Snowden? ProSense Jun 9 General Discussion
OP What’s the Deal with Hong Kong? ProSense Jun 9 General Discussion
OP Josh Marshall on Edward Snowden ProSense Jun 9 General Discussion

[Bonobo]

95. Now THAT is interesting! nt

[Marr]

125. JESUS. Suddenly, I find myself actually *hoping*

that person is being paid. The thought of someone pushing a narrative that hard for free just depresses me.

[questionseverything]

131. ...

<smile>

[Lonr]

23. The right of the people to be secure in their persons,

houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[cantbeserious]

27. More Character Assassination

eom

[gcomeau]

58. The article appeared to be...

...laying out the facts rather plainly. Facts the majority of respondents here are simply pretending don't exist so they can continue their outrage-fest.

[reusrename]

104. It's a bunch of double-talk.

The article is confused on the basics of how the program works. They are basically using robosigners.

The details about the robosigning, it's all there in the information that has been released. The analysts simply fill out a form or template and they have immediate access to the contents of emails and phone calls.

The template or form drives all of the computer modules that compile all the information needed for requesting a warrant from the FISA court. This ensures that the requirements for the warrant are complied with.

Then, sometime during the following 72 hours, the warrant request is sent to the FISA court. It is automatically approved since all the "legal" requirements have been met when the analyst completes the form or template that starts the process. I imagine thousands of communications can be requested by a single warrant.

Any analyst is authorized to obtain the content of any voice or email record, on his own authority, if he has been verbally authorized to do so by either the Attorney General or the Director of National Intelligence.

It's all covered in the FISA law itself, and then made crystal clear by the document releases that Snowden made. The laws were already known, Snowden explains the policy used to implement the law, which I never heard anything about before his disclosures.

If you are familiar with how robosigners were used to flout legal hurdles in the home repossession scandals, then you have to understand that this system of having the analysts become robosigners is done for exactly the same purpose. The only difference being that in the NSA spying case the robosigning has been made the official policy, which I think makes it legal, even though it violates the spirit of the law.

The policy could be ruled illegal by the Supreme Court, but no one has been able to argue the case there because all Americans lack legal standing.

One of the documents that Snowden released was the Verizon warrant which should provide legal standing to Verizon customers since they can now prove to the court that they are being targeted. In the past the court denied standing to everyone because no one could really know whether or not they were on a list since it was all secret.


?87cc7ae5b5e3d133be9f113f907a13faa9f8741e

[Cha]

30. yeah, exposing Glenn Greenwald and daring to burst his

bubble is "character assassination". damn straight glenn reeks of having no character.

[AgingAmerican]

60. When it is done for the purpose

of diverting attention from the fact he has exposed Domestic Surveillance in a Democratic administration, it is character assassination.

OR more accurately, it is the fallacy of ad hominem.

Person A makes claim X
Person B attacks person A
Therefore X is false.

[BainsBane]

97. What I would like to know

is why this obsessive fixation on Greenwald and Snowden as individuals rather than the NSA? That's what I find both boring and perplexing about the Snowden wars.

[AverageJoe90]

96. Indeed so.....n/t

[reusrename]

107. Oh, come on. You know the article in the OP is bullshit.

We've been over this before. It's simple. The analysts are merely acting as robosigners. The warrants are obtained AFTER the calls are listened to and the emails are read.

It's a completely automated system where the analyst fills out a form or template and by doing so all of the legal requirements established by the FISA court are automatically met. The information contained in the form or template is forwarded to the FISA court for their automatic approval at a later date, usually within the next 72 hours.

I honestly thought you were beginning to understand how the system works.

[AverageJoe90]

109. "I honestly thought you were beginning to understand how the system works."

Yes, I am, and learning more every day.

I'm no fan of NSA overreach. Never was. But something has seemed terribly off about this Snowden fella from the moment I started digging into his past.....I've found a few articles on the Web about him, and maybe I'll start posting them soon.....

[reusrename]

112. By ALL accounts he is a darn good systems analyst.

It would probably be a good bet that he was deeply involved in setting up a lot of the PRISM software modules himself. Someone had to do it, and he seems to have the appropriate skill set. There would be many stages to the development, including a validation and verification processes. It probably would have involved a lot of people over several years. He did work for the NSA during the appropriate time period.

The PRISM software appears to be designed to meet all of the legal requirements that have been established in order to satisfy the FISA court. The NSA would have been the customer for this software design. This puts Snowden squarely on the customer's team during most of the development, and the customer's team would have been the ones who had to be satisfied with the performance of the system.

This would also explain why he later took the job as an analyst. This would be in order to validate for himself that all of the procedures, policies, and protocols, all of which were anticipated when the software was designed, had actually been implemented in its use.

Snowden could easily be one of the most knowledgeable people around when it comes to understanding how all of the legal and policy issues are intertwined inside the PRISM software and user protocols.

[Cha]

124. ...

Joe

[JoePhilly]

47. Wait til these folks find out the admin at timewarner can read their email

without a court order.

Yikes!!

[SidDithers]

54. DU rec...nt

Sid