General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm a little puzzled here. Remember the Outrageous! Outrageous!
IRS pretend scandal a month or two ago? The one where everyone said "Outrageous!" a lot because some Republican at the IRS thought that organizations with the phrase "Tea Party" in their names might have a political purpose? Where Holder started a criminal investigation? The one where the only harm done was that a few tea party groups were delayed in getting tax-exempt status?
In that pretend scandal, the head of the IRS - who was not head of the IRS when the Outrageous! behavior occurred, and actually had zero to do with said outrageous behavior - was fired within days.
Let's now turn to the Snowden situation. Snowden, a 29-year-old relatively new hire, was given access to, and able to take home, massive volumes of information that (we are told) is so supermegasecret that we're now totally fucked as a nation, our deepest secrets revealed for all of our enemies to grok.
So, as Sen. Leahy asked today, why hasn't anyone been fired for letting this happen? Where's the scalp of the head of the NSA, who actually was the head of the NSA when this happened? Why is the director of national security still in place after giving Congress admittedly untruthful answers?
WTF is going on here? Could the incompetence and prevarication be any worse?
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Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)is the hobgoblin of…
…well…
Bureaucrats.
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)
I don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)a little funny in the head. You know, a... little... funny.
And he went and did a silly thing.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Lol.
navarth
(5,927 posts)Doncha know.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)The rest get tossed under that bus the size of an aircraft carrier.
leftstreet
(36,128 posts)Then the firings were classified!
deurbano
(2,899 posts)
zeemike
(18,998 posts)So we still don't know what we don't know we don't know.
Donald Rumsfield told me that.
dgauss
(898 posts)That's just how CBAs work in corporate America. Don't be fooled by the fact that it happened in government.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)You are not on the "need to know" list. Trust us, we know what we're doing.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts).
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)and comparing the 2 are like comparing apples to oranges?
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts) Marr
(20,317 posts)How are they so fundamentally different?
Jakes Progress
(11,142 posts)Saying this isn't like that is like saying that is not like this.
Without any explanation of what your meaningless jabber is trying to say, we can only surmise that you just don't understand what you are talking about.
Marr
(20,317 posts)You coming back anytime soon?
cui bono
(19,926 posts)who's there?
Marr
(20,317 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)
Ford_Prefect
(8,043 posts)How do you justify all those mega dollars paid to Booz Allen et al for so puny a result.
Lame, Lame, Lame, Lame, Lame!
Vanje
(9,766 posts)Our government works for Booz Allen.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 31, 2013, 11:43 PM - Edit history (1)
bobduca
(1,763 posts)secretly randians!111 or worse mean liberals with cherished programs!
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)He was hardly unknown. And there is no easy way to stop someone trusted from grabbing secrets and running, just as there is no way to stop someone from killing some random co-worker or spouse by surprise and running. About all you can do is ensure that people know that they won't actually get away with it.
That sinks your whole theory right there, Manny. Unless you think that cops are incompetent because the U.S. isn't completely crime-free.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)you don't see a problem.
Compartmentalization?
Plugging up USB ports?
Private network not attached to the Internet?
It all can be done.
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)Or as it's called "ECI" Extremely Compartmentalized Information.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/07/edward-snowden-has-everything-and-nothing/67476/
Mind you, as a highly trusted ex-CIA officer, he did have significant access. It's just very hard these days, as the record industry will tell you, to keep people from being able to copy things. The technology is just too prevalent.
And, by the way, Greenwald clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. The PowerPoint presentations he just released clearly show that what the NSA is tracking is Metadata. Greenwald just layers some additional unsubstantiated accusations on top of it, a practice that no real journalist would actually stoop to.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Hey at least you guys recycle.
Oy
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)They don't change when creationists don't like them.
They don't change when Republicans don't like them.
They don't change when people who hate the idea of national security don't like them.
If you keep screaming that God made the world five thousand years ago, Obama is literally Hitler, or Obama is literally Hitler...
...I may have to be a bit repetitive pointing you to the established facts, yes indeed.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And I stand with that looney who knows far more than you do...perhaps you've heard of him in your travels...no, not Snowden, not even Greenwald, but U.S. Senator Wyden. He has said, and I paraphrase, that the NSA s quite out of control.
As a member of the "reality based community" you go argue with somebody who deals with ths shit regularly and is pleased we are finally talking about it.
Don't bother responding. You are going straight to ignore with the rest of the "reality based" terrorists under every bed, community.
Good bye
malaise
(270,979 posts) 
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I just don't understand: "Obama is Hitler" somehow equates with wondering what or who at the NSA 'allowed' Snowden to make off with reams of data? Exactly how does that work?
Would you please respond without casting aspersions or name-calling?
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)Pushed by nadinbrzezinski, among others. The term Police State was brought into the English to describe Germany and other governments in the 1930s. It's just another way to Godwin a political discussion.
And let me be perfectly clear. Discussions on this board with many of the DU anti-Democratic Party extremists is almost exactly like discussions I regularly have with Tea Party extremists elsewhere. It's all emotional argumentation, rejection of data that doesn't fit the preferred narrative, outright tribalism, puerile childishness (like posting ROTFL emotes), pure unreasoned hatred, and the conflation of their on the spot conspiracy theorizing with actual established fact.
Let me repeat. Expecting any organization to be 100% perfect from criminal actions like Snowden took is unreasonable. But just like the Tea Partiers with their white-hot hatred of the United States government, the cognitive dissonance of thinking that the NSA is all-knowing and all-powerful while at the same time being completely unable to do anything right (because it's government), is just par for the course.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Those of us who want to know who else in the NSA dropped the ball (with regards to establishing protocols to prevent massive 'lifts' of data, among other things) are "anti-Democratic Party extremists"? Expressing our concerns about this issue is "all emotional argumentation, rejection of data that doesn't fit the preferred narrative, outright tribalism, puerile childishness (like posting ROTFL emotes), pure unreasoned hatred, and the conflation of...on the spot conspiracy theorizing with actual established fact"? Asking for information about how Snowden got out of the building with massive amounts of data is unreasonably "expecting any organization to be 100% perfect from criminal actions" or "the cognitive dissonance of thinking that the NSA is all-knowing and all-powerful while at the same time being completely unable to do anything right"?
Do you work for the NSA? Do you have any information for those of us who are asking questions--those of us who don't fit into your above-described pigeon holes?
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)It's not "those who want to know who else in the NSA dropped the ball" and "Expressing our concerns about the issue", and merely "asking questions".
So do not play bullshit fake-innocence "I'm just asking questions (Obama: Leader of the Police State or Betrayer of the Constitution?)" routine, exactly like FOX news and Limbaugh do, and expect to get away with it.
You want to make an actual cogent argument, based on fact, that does not accuse the President of lying or acting like a NAZI (or both), and we can have a decent discussion. Until then though, everything I said about what a handful of screed-writers who clearly hate the Democratic party stands.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
great white snark
(2,646 posts)I'm humbled to be in the same party with such intelligent people like you.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I just quoted your exact words! I don't know who you consider a member of the "handful of screed-writers who clearly hate the Democratic Party," but I don't fit that description! However, my post to which you crafted this shrill, defensive and derisive screed WAS intended to highlight YOUR biased, defensive, derisive posts herein above. So, you CLEARLY have a perception problem, and have yet again posted a response that is biased, defensive and derisive. Thanks for proving my point.
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)It's amazing you think people are stupid enough to fall for this!
When headlines like this:
"Liberal advocates of a police state turn savagely against Edward Snowden"
...are upvoted on D.U. on a daily basis, as if mainstream Democrats and the President are in favor of becoming North Korea, it's plainly obvious what I'm referring to. (And I'm not even going to go into the constant anti-Democratic screaming in the comments.)
Quoting someone's exact words, but then switching the context around so that it looks like they're responding to something else is so much a FOX trick. Seriously, you should go work there. You're a natural.
And by the way, I went through your history, pulling out this gem:
"Wow! Voice one teensy concern about the policies of our POTUS, or any other politician du jour, and all-of-a-sudden... PURIST!".
Clearly this line of characterizing bullshit flamebait as a "teensy concern" and "just asking questions" is something you've been called on in the past. Like when you called out Mindmover for being a male chauvinist pig for liking a picture of a scantily clad model when she's really a woman without the need to conform to the cultural imposition of sex-negativity that you think she should have.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
chervilant
(8,267 posts)and to justify your untenable assertions, compelled you to search through a plethora of my posts to quote something out of context? Speaking of which, why cherry pick one alleged exchange with one DUer out of a series of comments about sexism on DU?
This explains why it took over a day for you to respond. I'm surprised you've put so much time and energy into this exchange. You must have a lot of free time to spend online.
SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)before he was just a schlub trying to make a big deal out of himself
now he has been elevated to "a highly trusted ex-CIA officer"
when it all began the nsa enablers said he was a nobody but now I guess we will be hearing the phrase "a highly trusted ex-CIA officer"
makes what he did easier to call bad thing I suppose
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I missed that...as I put him where he belongs.
This is embarrassing in many ways
Marr
(20,317 posts)Authoritarians don't seem to have much trouble rebooting their brains when it's necessary to defend their chosen authority.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Really?
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)...killing them, he would also likely have been able to walk out the door. Walking out doors isn't hard, especially when you suddenly betray people with no indication that you were going to.
And for all the hype about the NSA tracking everything instantly, this is simply a delusion. Even if the NSA had some sort of instant alarm, who would monitor it? What if that person decided to betray their oath like Snowden did?
The job of the NSA is to provide foreign intelligence especially targeted at threats to the United States, including terrorists. Not to actually be what people who hate the idea of National Security or fighting terrorism would want them to be: Orwellian.
Please also note something else. The IRS keeps substantially more sensitive information that the NSA does - all on American citizens. You want to get rid of the progressive U.S. tax code in the name of the same extremist interpretations of the 4th Amendment? It has the same "potential" to do harm, even though it basically doesn't, and you'd make a lot of GOP 1%ers happy there Manny.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)The reality based community has chimed in. Fucking groovy.
SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)"a highly trusted ex-CIA officer" he said for christs sake
Zorra
(27,670 posts)
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)I have.
People are checked on the way in and the way out. Smart phones and lots of other things can't go inside. USB ports are disbled on everything. Any other way of getting unauthorized info on and of the computer systems is locked down. And the list goes on and on.
This was a complete fuck up, totally avoidable.
And lying to Congress? Seriously?
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)Still, media is extremely small these days, and familiarity with security procedures makes them relatively easy to avoid - especially when you're talking about smuggling in something exceedingly small.
In terms of disabling USB, Snowden was an IT contractor. It's quite likely that part of his job was to ensure that the USB ports were disabled.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Witnessed and signed off by two people.
Same with SD cards, etc.
Basic stuff. Done all the time. But not at Booz Allen, apparently.
And lying to Congress?
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)...but unless you have a locked case and/or case-alarm configured (and as IT-guy, Snowden was likely to be one of the people involved in setting this up, so he'd know how to disable it), it's trivial to simply open the case and plug in a different header.
Heck, given modern cases, a handy set of pliers is all you need to open it up enough to access the header, no alarm needed.
Now admittedly, I'm not privy to Booz Allen's security procedures, and I'm sure they're undergoing some pretty intense review now. But the expectation that any organization is going to be able to run an absolutely airtight ship against even the most highly trusted people (and Snowden was trusted), is simply unreasonable.
As for the lying to Congress bit. Yup. Clapper did so. I know he has some "I didn't have gay sex in that airport bathroom" sorts of weaseling he's doing, but the simple fact is that any reasonable interpretation of Wyden's question doesn't leave enough room for this to be an interpretative thing.
Now see? The facts don't support my position in that case, but unlike others, I don't go trying to twist reality until it does. All I'll say is that it is up to Congress to decide if this fib was bad enough to warrant punishment. We'll see. But Clapper's day job is to provide information and protect national security, and he was put in a tough spot when reporting on a classified program, and Congress knows that.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
Marr
(20,317 posts)Oh no-- you don't twist reality at all.
mick063
(2,424 posts)This is revealing. It leads me to believe that you have much invested. Professionally, ideologically, politically, or monetarily.
Are Eric Snowden revelations so damaging, that France and Germany should publicly scold us? Or that Iceland should hold a vote to grant citizenship? Or that the Southern Hemisphere might take a united stance in denouncing us? Should or should we not know what we are investing in? I'm not talking about specific information of plots to attack us. I'm talking about the organization chart at the top, the funding, the mission statement, and the methods through which such actions are deemed legal.
Be prepared for quotes from elected representatives to counter your expected reply to those previous questions.
Perhaps with more transparency, your displeasure at a comparison to Nazis would not be an inherent result? What else would one expect in such an environment?
I for one, am eager to revoke "Godwin's law" as long as the details are so obscure. Apparently, Congress must be briefed on the inner workings of a program they are expected to fund. Apparently, no one knows what in the hell is going on except for a few contractors and the executive branch. Apparently, Congress must be lied to, furthering future distrust. Until the debriefs are complete, expect rampant speculation. I shall be one of those adding fuel to the fire.
The simple matter is.
I don't trust you. Now earn it.
emsimon33
(3,128 posts)The IRS director who was fired had not been in charge when the fake IRS crisis occurred.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)Just because you think it's super un-constitutional does not mean that everyone does.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Or am I a crappy writer?
reformist2
(9,841 posts)And of course there's that abandoned ballerina, who is probably still crying even as we speak.
And those boxes in his garage. We STILL don't know what's in them.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)
Thanks for the morning laugh!
hootinholler
(26,449 posts) G_j
(40,373 posts)it's that simple...
Caretha
(2,737 posts)reusrename
(1,716 posts)Ariel Castro is going to prison because he's in the first group. Were he rich and power full enough he could kidnap, torture, rape, and indefinitely detain people without any risk at all of incarceration. Even Obama would sanction it.
questionseverything
(9,716 posts)Were he rich and power full enough he could kidnap, torture, rape, and indefinitely detain people without any risk at all of incarceration.
just like the iraq soldiers did with American soldiers approval in mannings info dump
yes if castro had been part of the military industrial complex,amanda would of been charged with destruction of property for breaking his door to escape...and that black neighbor ,that kicked castros door in to help her...he could of been shot on sight
questionseverything
(9,716 posts)What Manning Revealed - Read This & Tell Me Just WHO Is Our Government Keeping Safe?
Last edited Wed Jul 31, 2013, 12:03 AM USA/ET - Edit history (3)
What did WikiLeaks reveal?
PFC Bradley Manning is a US Army intelligence specialist who is accused of releasing classified information to WikiLeaks, an organization that he allegedly understood would release portions of the information to news organizations and ultimately to the public.
The "Iraq War Logs" published by WikiLeaks revealed that thousands of reports of prisoner abuse and torture had been filed against the Iraqi Security Forces. Medical evidence detailed how prisoners had been whipped with heavy cables across the feet, hung from ceiling hooks, suffered holes being bored into their legs with electric drills, urinated upon, and sexually assaulted.
U.S. defense contractors were brought under much tighter supervision after leaked diplomatic cables revealed that they had been complicit in child trafficking activities. DynCorp -- a powerful defense contracting firm that claims almost $2 billion per year in revenue from U.S. tax dollars -- threw a party for Afghan security recruits featuring boys purchased from child traffickers for entertainment.
The Guantanamo Files describe how detainees were arrested based on what the New York Times referred to as highly subjective evidence. For example, some poor farmers were captured after they were found wearing a common watch or a jacket that was the same as those also worn by Al Queda operatives. How quickly innocent prisoners were released was heavily dependent on their country of origin.
Even though the Bush and Obama Administrations maintained publicly that there was no official count of civilian casualties, the Iraq and Afghanistan War Logs showed that this claim was false. Between 2004 and 2009, the U.S. government counted a total of 109,000 deaths in Iraq, with 66,081 classified as non-combatants. This means that for every Iraqi death that is classified as a combatant, two innocent men, women or children are also killed.
-U.S. Military officials withheld information about the indiscriminate killing of Reuters journalists and innocent Iraqi civilians.
-The State Department backed corporate opposition to a Haitian minimum wage law.
-The U.S. Government had long been faking its public support for Tunisian President Ben Ali.
-Known Egyptian torturers received training from the FBI in Quantico, Virginia.
-The State Department authorized the theft of the UN Secretary General's DNA.
-The Obama Administration allowed Yemen's President to cover up a secret U.S. drone bombing campaign.
emsimon33
(3,128 posts)
Progressive dog
(6,947 posts)the IRS employee didn't. Anyway, the accused criminal in the NSA case fled to Russia to avoid prosecution.
pkdu
(3,977 posts)"massive volumes of information that (we are told) is so.."
Should read..
"massive volumes of information (we are told) that is so .."
why oh why not publish everything if its so damning ?
felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)is belongs to us... "
Classification rocks!! 
marble falls
(59,000 posts)tolerable.
tclambert
(11,089 posts)Every time I ask it, the evening news proves to me it can get worse.
Why? As the alien, Eros, said in Plan 9 from Outer Space, "Because all you of Earth are idiots." (Ironically, the movie itself kind of proved his point. And this year, they're doing a remake of it!)