I have a quiz for my fellow DUers... how many riots happen when a Bible is burned?

[Zalatix]

First, let's start with that question.

[marybourg]

1. How 'bout a flag?

[Zalatix]

15. Lots of whining and griping about burning flags, but no riots. At least nothing recently.

[hedgehog]

2. Counter quiz: how many people are burned at the stake when a Bible is printed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale

[joeglow3]

17. I am guessing a few bibles have been printed in 500 years...

[Boojatta]

66. Translating and printing are different.

[yawnmaster]

74. Well, that's one....400 years ago! eom

[arcane1]

3. Hard to say, I don't remember hearing of a bible being burned n/t

[snooper2]

51. Happens all the time...here's from a couple weeks ago :)

seems kind of wasteful though, why not save for kindling?

[Son of Gob]

62. Where the heck did you find that?

It only has 71 views.

[Red Mountain]

70. I can guess why

Without having watched it

[snooper2]

87. Everything is on youtube..

Here's one I looked for the other day while working on my SIL's POS

&feature=relmfu

[yurbud]

4. so the way to teach people not to riot over religious insults is to bomb the

shit out of them, invade their countries, and try to install puppet governments that sign over their natural resources?

If right wingers are worried about religious violence, they should consider leading by example and figuring things to give the people over there to live for besides religion.

Hell, that would be a good idea for you guys here.

[malaise]

22. A Perfect response

[surrealAmerican]

63. I would recommend your post if I could.

You hit the nail right on the head there.

[msongs]

5. when your life sucks so bad you want to die and go to heaven, you may riot nt

[polly7]

6. In an area where there is so much suffering and death ... justified by many, still, with

Islamophobic fear-mongering?

Burning a Bible in a peaceful situation is nowhere near a valid comparison to the impact of burning the Koran in present-day Afghanistan.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

26. Where does printing a cartoon or making a film in Denmark fit in?

Unless Denmark isn't peaceful anymore?

[polly7]

32. As I didn't mention the cartoons or Denmark,

I have no idea why you're asking me this.

The Danish newspaper apologized, take it up with them. It's also a far different situation than burning Korans in Afghanistan. Not my fault if you can't see the difference.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

55. The point is....

....the idea that the location or the political situation in the area where the "outrage" generated from makes a difference as to the resulting reaction is foolish. Riots and protests have started over the rumored threat of someone burning a Koran.

[kctim]

7. Your post highlights hypocrisy

so it will be met only with weak excuses and how it's somehow "different."

[veganlush]

8. that's because

many modern Christians are way,way less devout than most followers of say, the Quran. I live in America. Most people that I know that claim to be religious and go to church regularly, etc...only follow those teachings and commandments of their faith that are convenient. Many American Christians are simply hedging their bets on the kingdom of heaven, doing as little as possible In the way of what their faith apparently requires. In many predominantly Muslim countries, it's not unusual to see most of the people falling to the ground in prayer five times a day for example. Most of the men wear beards. The women have subordinate roles in society and often have to cover themselves, etc. Most "Christians" that i know follow very little of the tenets of their religion. They are just not that into it so naturally their reaction to a bible burning would be much less dramatic.

[treestar]

57. Agree, plus there is a sort of awareness that no matter how many

Bibles are burned, there are still more Bibles and that the ideas in the Bible won't be lost.

The Koran should inspire equal confidence. But from the Muslim point of view, someone burning a Koran is trying to make a point and it's that point they are reacting to.

[Bok_Tukalo]

9. 42

<POE>

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. Or cartoons for that matter

It will be interesting to see if those espousing intersectional feminism will even dare to bring up the role of Islam.

[Bonhomme Richard]

11. Let's burn a bunch in Mississioppi and find out. n/t

[Bonhomme Richard]

12. Better yet. Let's have a muslim army burn them in Mississippi and find out. n/t

[Scurrilous]

13. Heh.

[JNelson6563]

16. Amen! OP? Your thoughts?

Curious what the OP would think of this.

[Zalatix]

20. Feds and the police would get a handle on that real quick.

[tkmorris]

30. Doesn't really address the point does it?

If there was an invading army from a Muslim nation camped in Mississippi, and they burned a stack of Bibles, what do you think would happen? That is after all the equivalent of the incident you are talking about. Do you really believe there would NOT be riots?

[Zalatix]

34. A Muslim army wouldn't have been allowed on American soil. Americans shouldn't be in the ME.

But if you burn a Koran HERE, in America, riots happen in places where the US Army isn't present.

Anyone got an answer for that? Hello? No responses? Aw, man.

[sabrina 1]

47. How many Muslims have burned the Bible here in the US outside a Church?

I don't remember any such event so we don't really know what would happen, do we?

[Bluerthanblue]

69. shoulda woulda coulda-

fact is, we ARE in Afghanistan, we've been there for many years, and we've used and manipulated the people of Afghanistan for decades to advance an agenda to benefit us- not the Afghans.

no, it SHOULDN'T be that way, but it is. Your comparison is flawed.

[Zalatix]

77. Flawed? Okay so how about the bible-burning riots in Egypt and Malawi?

What US Army invasion force is located there?

[tkmorris]

19. Exactly so

OP if you have a response to Richard here I'd love to hear it.

[polly7]

23. ...

[Blue_In_AK]

25. Recommend.

[joeybee12]

14. Bomb the civilians first in that area, then burn the Bible...

And then you have a legitimate question.

[HopeHoops]

18. 6.34954 on average and that's about how many people participate in each one.

[Hugabear]

21. How many Christian nations have been bombed, invaded, and occupied by Islamic countries?

I'm talking about within the past century.

[former9thward]

76. How many Islamic countries have the capability to bomb, etc. a Christian country?

Answer none. They can't even take out a tiny Jewish country that is surrounded by Arab countries although they certainly have tried.

[JNelson6563]

24. Most bible burnings were part of the riots.

Back when Christianity was about the same age that Islam is now, my oh my but the streets of Europe were running red with the blood of Christians killing each other. Of course this took place after several "crusades" where the Christians went off to kill all those not Christian (tho' some Christians who had the audacity to have nice cities and stuff were often treated to the same stuff as the "infidels&quot .

So, um, what was your point again? I imagine you're trying to imply Christianity is oh-so-much more sophisticated than Islam? Less violent? Less oppressive? Yeah, I think you're on the wrong board or that.

Julie

[Zalatix]

33. My point is we wouldn't give a minute's attention to a Bible burner.

But if your spitoon lands within 10 feet of a Koran you're Public Enemy #1.

This is a fact that is pretty hard to dispute, and I'm talking about the modern age, not the Crusades. In the modern age Wiccans practice openly, in the past, not so much.

[sinkingfeeling]

48. I double dare you to come here and stand in front of our largest Baptist church

and burn Bibles. I'd be willing to bet you would a) be cursed at, b) beaten up, c) arrested, and d) probably shot at.

[Zalatix]

82. Sorry, I don't burn religious books.

But I want to know why you can get in the news and have the WORLD pile on you for burning a Koran in your back yard when you could turn around and burn a Bible in your back yard the next day and no one but a handful of obscure backwater mountain men (at WORST) bats an eyelash.

[Enrique]

27. imo that is not a question

it appears to be an expression of your opinion that Christianity is better than Islam.

But to answer your rhetorical question, I don't know, but I bet it is very few.

[Tsiyu]

28. How many riots happen when people try to peaceably assemble

and protest the excesses and corruption of Wall Street?

How many teabaggers stomp on a woman's head if she shows up at their rally?

Oh, yeah. We're SO much more civilized

[Sivart]

29. maybe

Maybe the point is that muslims generally dont seem to go around burning bibles.....? I dont know. Maybe they do....and i just dont know it.

[Zalatix]

43. Dear DUers: how many invading American armies are located here?

Malawi:
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE6940HY20101005

Egypt:

How many anti-Muslim riots were inspired by these acts?

[Bonhomme Richard]

68. What can I say? There are ignorant people everywhere and...

religion just seems to bring out the worst in them. If burning books was the worst that religions did the world would be a much safer place.

[EC]

31. Depends on who is doing the burning.

If Moslems burned it, I'm guessing the whole right wing would be up in arms.

Your question is the point that crazy preacher in Florida was what he was trying to prove by burning the quran. That the Moslem religion was a violent religion. But I contend that if Moslems burned the bible out of spite and hate that Christians here would be just as violent and upset as they would be if we burned the quran.

[randome]

35. I'm guessing the right wing would NOT be up in arms.

Not to the extent that fundamentalists of other religions would be. Americans in general aren't that organized. I'm sure there would be spitting and threats but not riots.

The OP may be trying to test the waters of false equivalency. We sometimes express solidarity for the Islamic world in general but are tentative about calling them out when they behave abominably except in truly outrageous situations like stoning a woman to death or something.

[Zalatix]

36. My point exactly.

I have no intentions of defending imperialism but it is not entirely accurate to say that these Koran burning-inspired riots would NOT have happened if we were smart enough not to have armies over there.

[randome]

39. Rioting over a book -or a satirical cartoon- is stupid.

Protesting funerals in the name of Christianity is stupid.

That kind of equivalency I have no problem seeing.

[Zalatix]

41. Absolutely. What kind of mass insanity virus has infected Westboro Baptist Church, anyway?

[eridani]

92. Were there any Koran burning riots in the mid 50s?

On the other hand, we weren't occupying any Muslim lands back then.

[GeorgeGist]

37. 3 million

Next question.

[gratuitous]

38. Only that?

Because from what I've read about Afghanistan, the Koran burning is kind of the cherry on a shit sundae we've been serving up to them for the last decade. Add in 10 years of oppressive occupation, random killings of civilians, spoliation of the land, disruption of everyday life and culture, and then this topper? Remember how discombobulated our entire country got over a couple of buildings getting knocked down and a few thousand people being killed? We still haven't recovered, and our reaction still isn't over, worse than any riots that might be occurring in Afghanistan.

If you're trying to build some kind of cultural superiority argument on behalf of the United States, you might want to start over again.

[smokey nj]

50. Well said, gratuitous.

[lumberjack_jeff]

40. I dunno. How many beatles records got burned when Lennon "insulted" jesus? n/t

[Bandit]

42. I can remember mini riots and record burnings when John Lennon said the Beattles were

more popular than Jesus...People were jumping up and down on cars and screaming at passer-bys. No one was killed that I recall but they were very disturbing protests..

[rvt1000rr]

44. Perhaps the better question would be

how many people have been tortured, hanged, burned at the stake shot or car-bombed for angering Christians. Before you say this is ancient history, remember Northern Ireland.

[tabatha]

45. Different cultures have different reactions to different things.

The right wing wants to nuke countries that merely have a demonstration against the US.

[randome]

49. That's a good point.

But I still think we do a disservice to those cultures not to call them out for outrageous behavior. For instance, we need to speak out when a culture tries to suppress a minority. I think we should do the same when riots over a book occur. We may not be the avatars of civilized behavior we sometimes think we are but we can still say what we think is 'right' versus 'wrong'.

[sabrina 1]

46. How many wars have been started in the name of the Bible?

'Onward Christian Soldiers'!

How about Iraq? The 'Crusade' started by our very religions, Christian President several years ago which took the lives of untold numbers of non-Chrisitians?

[Ganja Ninja]

52. I don't know. When was the last time someone burned one? n/t

[Quantess]

54. What's the point of burning a bible if nobody freaks out and riots?

No fun in that.

[yurbud]

53. I'm curious--what was the response you were looking for? Maybe we can agree on some things:

That Muslim extremists are bad?

I don't think you'd get any argument about that here.

The real issue is therefore WHAT?

Issues we might agree on:

• Therefore, do not support regimes that are and export religious extremists. That should apply at LEAST as much to Saudi Arabia that gave hundreds of millions to al Qaeda before 9/11 and who the Joint Congressional Inquiry into 9/11 found gave financial support and shepherded a couple of the 9/11 hijackers up until the attacks.
  
  
• Do not use religious extremists as foreign policy proxies like we did in Afghanistan in the 80's, the Balkans in the 90's, and at least during the Bush years (and maybe still now under Obama) we did to harass Iran (using Sunni extremists to harass Shi'ite extremists).
  

Issues where we might disagree:

• Is it worse or any different if a fundamentalist Christian takes over a country and passes a law calling for the execution of gays as happens in fundamentalist Iran? Or if fundamentalist Jews in Israel are part of the political process even though some think the Palestinians are the people God told them to exterminate to take possession of the land of Canaan he had promised them?
  
  
• Do you think the social and political forces that are driving some Muslims to fundamentalism are the same as those driving Christians and Jews to fundamentalism as well?
  
  
• Is there a standard for appropriate and inappropriate involvement of religion in politics that you would apply equally to all religions?
  
  
• Is religion ever the excuse for political violence rather than the motive? Do you think the Catholic Spaniards and Portuguese who conquered South America and the mostly Protestant English, Dutch, and Germans who conquered North America were primarily concerned with spreading Christianity rather than getting their hands on some real estate, natural resources, and cheap to slave labor?
  

Even if we ultimately disagree about the issues in the second set of questions even talking about them would move the discussion from fear-mongering toward realistic solutions and policies.

[Zalatix]

58. I feel it's wrong and hypocritical to blame people who burn bibles for the violence in the ME

And I am NOT just talking about the most recent incident. I'm talking about the Westboro incident, too. Everyone gets mad when someone burns the Koran, they're starting violence in the Middle East, etc.

But heck, all you need to do to spark that kind of madness is to draw a cartoon criticizing Muslims. And... Salmon Rushdie, anyone?

The problem is not the burning of Korans. The problem is the jaw dropping violence that ensues any time you APPEAR to insult Islam.

How many attempts were made on Sinead "Fuck the Pope" O'Connor's life?

[yurbud]

60. I am not blaming the Westboro people for anything though they make asses of themselves

[yurbud]

61. could you respond to some of the specific points I raised?

[Zalatix]

81. Not sure what use it is when people think this is about "Christianity > Muslim", BUT...

In response to your points, I want:

NO troops in the Middle East.* Just this last day I told someone on here that if they want to see America "intervene" in foreign rebellions (i.e., Syria), maybe they should sign up themselves and put their own skin in the game.
NO wars for oil.
Israel to recognize the state of Palestine.
Israel to address the issues behind the over 200 UN resolutions passed against Israel. (Much too broad to get into detail here.)
Total separation of church and state. (Does this answer your point #3?)

Religion has often been used as a (lame) excuse for conquest, cheap labor, theft of resources and other wealth. If I didn't oppose this I would not have signed up for this site. Also see: #2 on my list of wants.

[yurbud]

84. thank you. that provides some context to your original point.

[treestar]

59. The response they are looking for is

An admission that Muslims are more irrational and violent than Christians. That's what they usually are looking for.

[polly7]

64. Bingo. nt.

[Judi Lynn]

56. John Lennon said,at the beginning of Beatles' fame in the US that they were more popular than Christ

and the Christian fundies went postal, wild, foaming at the mouth. And that's a far cry from burning Bibles.

These drooling, red-faced idiots swarmed, stomped, waddled, staggered into parking lots of churches, grocery stores, etc., and burned Beatles records in bonfires.

More popular than Jesus

Angry reactions flared up in August 1966, after John Lennon's remark that The Beatles had become "more popular than Jesus" was quoted by the American teen magazine, Datebook. Lennon originally made the remark when an English newspaper reporter, Maureen Cleave, interviewed him at home for a series of articles on the lifestyles of the four individual Beatles. When published in the United Kingdom in March 1966, Lennon's words provoked no public reaction.

When Datebook quoted Lennon's comments five months later in August 1966, vociferous protests broke out in the southern United States. The Beatles' records were publicly burned, press conferences were cancelled and threats were made. The protest spread to other countries including Mexico, South Africa and Spain; there were anti-Beatles' demonstrations and their music was banned on radio stations. The controversy erupted on the eve of the group's US tour, and the anger and scale of the reaction led their manager, Brian Epstein, to consider cancelling the tour.

Two press conferences were held in the US, where both Epstein and then Lennon expressed their regret at words taken out of context and offence taken. Christian spokesmen pointed out that Lennon had only stated what the church was itself saying about the decline of Christianity. The US tour went ahead but there was disruption and intimidation, including picketing of concerts by the Ku Klux Klan, and at one concert the group mistakenly believed they were the target of gunfire. From the close of the 1966 tour until their break-up in 1970, they never played another commercial concert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_popular_than_Jesus

Odd you wouldn't realize this kind of behavior has happened in the U.S. already, and with more outrageous, hideous, tragic consequences than anything you're trying to hold up as an example of Islamic inferiority to good ol' U.S. Christianity.

[VioletLake]

65. How many riots happen in the US when a Koran is burned?

My point is that the answer to your question depends on the circumstances. For example, if Muslims in Indonesia or Nigeria publicly burned a Bible, the odds of Christians rioting would be significant.

So what's your point, that Muslims are rioting savages compared to Christians?

[Bluerthanblue]

67. If the country where the bible was burned, was being violently occupied by the bible-burners

I'd imagine there would be many.

[Red Mountain]

71. Christianity enjoyed a reformation

Islam has not.

Islam needs one.

[yurbud]

73. Islam doesn't have centralized hierarchical clergy to make that possible

it's more likely to undergo the kind of reformation protestantism itself did, from zealous newbies to mellower mainlines.

Actually, the better analogy for Islam is mainline Christians who go looking for more radical churches. Most Muslims take their religion about as seriously as most Christians take theirs.

[CBHagman]

89. And may I point out that during said Reformation...

...there was bloodshed galore, followed by the Thirty Years' War and sectarian violence of one kind or another for centuries.

Timeline for Britain:

http://www.britannia.com/history/reftime.html

On edit: This is not a judgment of the theology of any believer, of Catholic, Protestant, or another faith, just a reflection on how blood-stained the history of Christianity is.

[renie408]

72. I think I would rather start with: Why the patronizing 'quiz' style?

If you have a point, make it.

That would be IF you have a point. If your point is that Christians are so much better than Muslims, go fuck yourself.

And yeah, I know this is going to be pulled and I really don't care.

[Zalatix]

80. Can't you READ? I made my point in post #58

and it wasn't about "Christians > Muslims".

You need a chill pill.

Why do we blame people who burn the Koran for causing riots? Nobody rioted when they burned Bibles in Malawi or Cairo and we've got no invading army there bombing civilians.

Bah, I don't expect you to follow up on your drive-by childishness.

[renie408]

86. I still stand by the 'patronizing quiz style'.

No, I didn't read post number FIFTY EIGHT. For that I apologize. See, I wouldn't have had to if you had just tried to make your point instead of being coy and patronizing about it. I found your use of the Socratic method on a message board unwieldy and annoying.

I take the 'go fuck yourself' comment back. That was uncalled for.

[slackmaster]

75. Neep, Neep, Neep, Zeep

[mike_c]

78. how many muslim armies occupy U.S. cities and imprison their citizens?

Context is everything, my friend.

[Zalatix]

79. How does that explain the Bible burnings in Egypt or Malawi?

Do we have troops invading there?

[mike_c]

88. does it have to?

Might those be two entirely separate events, with independent causes and outcomes? Why do you think the one has anything to do with the other? To suggest that they're connected or share some common explanation is just a logical fallacy.

[Zalatix]

91. You implied that Bible-burning is the result of American armies occupying Muslim cities

and imprisoning their people.

I showed you examples of where Bible-burning happens even where American troops AREN'T occupying Muslim cities and imprisoning their people.

This should be pretty easy to figure out: Bible burners are gonna burn Bibles whether American troops are there or not, and Americans didn't riot and destroy shit or go hang a bunch of Muslims in retaliation. Fact.

[mike_c]

93. this conversation is becoming confusing....

First, we were talking about Quoran burning in a fundamentalist muslim nation occupied and oppressed by American troops. Now you've somehow switched to bible burning in completely different countries with completely different social dynamics and different recent histories. You've equated bible burning in Egypt with violent reactions to Quoran burning in Afghanistan. Huh? Those are independent events with completely separate causes and trajectories. Bible burning in Egypt has NOTHING to do with rioting in Afghanistan.

[Zalatix]

95. I was never, ever talking ONLY about rioting in Afghanistan

I was talking about rioting about Koran-burning vs rioting about Bible-burning in general.

[MrSlayer]

83. Marylin Manson routinely rips bibles to shreds on stage.

And outside of a few nutbag protestors, no one gives a shit. If he was shredding Korans, some nutbag would probably
have killed him by now. There is a difference.

That is not to say that the super Christers wouldn't kill him if they could but they are held in check by our laws and our culture. Only the most extreme fundies will kill an abortion doctor or the like here.

[yurbud]

85. HL Mencken had something relevant to say on religion in general:

[Arugula Latte]

90. I'll settle this.

All religion sucks. A pox on it all. Get rid of it.

You're welcome.

[dmallind]

94. And I have a quiz for you: Why did Catholics and Protestants kill each other over doctrine?

Such silly ephemera as transsubstantiation or the intercessory power of Mary? Because it was taught to them as part of their Magisteria - the extra-scriptural teachings of their churches - that these were important things.

Similarly Muslims have a magisterium that forbids casual burning of their book

http://www.daruliftaa.com/question?txt_questionid=q-08570775

Islam is 600-odd years younger than Christianity. If it takes as long for them to get over the routine killing of those who disagree (Christianity isn't entirely over it yet of course - just less routine than of yore) with odd bits of teachings like this, then we'll see an end somewhere about 2599.