Russia: Bastion of Liberty or Human Oppressor??

[MjolnirTime]

It can't be both.

How can a place be so backwards and horrific that they actually make laws against not just homosexuality, but they criminalize the very act of saying a word in favor of homosexuality??

How can this place at the same time be cheered on and glorified as some haven of Liberty for the single act of sheltering Edward Snowden??

Do the Russian efforts to protect Snowden absolve them of all other guilt?

I have seen supporters of Snowden cheering Putin on. How can they isolate their opinions from everything else Putin has done and is doing?

Based on all the other badness Russia is involved in, how can someone ignore the very real possibility that their intentions with Snowden are nowhere near righteous? They are not interested in his health or his Liberty. They are interested in what he knows about US Intelligence. They are interested in how they can use Snowden to damage the US politically.

How can anyone willingly wear the blinders necessary for seeing Russia as an advocate for Human Freedoms??

8 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Bastion of Liberty
	0 (0%)
	Human Oppressor
	8 (100%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Cooley Hurd]

1. It's neither, but so is the USA.

Thanks for shining a light on how far off the USA has become regarding freedom!

[demosincebirth]

17. What freedoms? you make us sound like we live in a country like the Old communist regines of the

Eastern Block.

[treestar]

25. We'd never have a law like that, because of the First Amendment

[LuvNewcastle]

2. I'm glad that Russia is letting Snowden stay there,

but I have no fondness for Russia. They are committing genocide against gay people, which I believe should disqualify them from hosting the Olympics. I don't believe Snowden would be staying in Russia were it not for the fact that the U.S. has virtually blocked all his exits from that country. He'll have to stay there until he can find a way to get to Venezuela or another country who will give him asylum.

[HiPointDem]

9. genocide? they are killing gay people in order to exterminate them? link?

[LuvNewcastle]

13. The link is to the Geneva Convention's definition

of genocide. Article 2 lists 5 things that are characteristics of genocide. Russia is guilty of 3 of the 5 (b,c, and e), and possibly murder (a) as well. It was in a post by Freestate in a thread the other day; I just found the link to the Geneva Convention page.

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

[HiPointDem]

14. i asked for a link to accounts of the ussr exterminating gay people. genocide is defined in your

link as acts committed 'with intent to destroy in whole or in part' -- physically.

[LuvNewcastle]

15. Putin has made it clear that anyone suspected of being gay

is to be arrested. They're taking away children of gay people and giving them to straight couples. They're trying to wipe out gay people in Russia. When you make a specific group that isn't in that group by choice illegal and take away their freedom to live as citizens you are committing genocide. The only difference between what Putin is doing to gay people and what Hitler did to Jews is he isn't sending them to gas chambers. Of course, God only knows what's happening to them in Russian prisons -- they could be executing them. But you don't necessarily have to execute the people you're committing genocide against. Making them illegal for being who they are and hunting them down and beating them and putting them in prison is enough. That stuff has been in the news for a while, in case you care to read about it, but you can Google it yourself.

[HiPointDem]

16. link for your claims, please?

[Raine1967]

18. here are a few links:

Harvey Fierstein had an Op-Ed in the NYT and news articles back up everything he said: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/opinion/russias-anti-gay-crackdown.html?_r=0

Here are a few news articles:
Putin signs Gay Adoption ban.

Russian anti-gay bill passes, Protesters Detained:

Before the vote, gay rights activists attempted to hold a "kissing rally" outside the State Duma, located across the street from Red Square in central Moscow, but they were attacked by hundreds of Orthodox Christian activists and members of pro-Kremlin youth groups. The mostly burly young men with closely cropped hair pelted them with eggs while shouting obscenities and homophobic slurs.

Riot police moved in, detaining more than two dozen protesters, almost all of them gay rights activists. Some who were not detained were beaten by masked men on a central street about a mile away.

The legislation will impose hefty fines for providing information about the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender, or LGBT, community to minors or holding gay pride rallies. Breaching the law will carry a fine of up to 5,000 rubles ($156) for an individual and up to 1 million rubles ($31,000) for media organizations.

After the bill was given preliminary approval in January, lawmakers changed the wording of "homosexual propaganda" to "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations," which backers of the bill defined as "relations not conducive to procreation."

Russia decriminalized homosexuality in 1993, but anti-gay sentiment remains high. Russia also is considering banning citizens of countries that allow same-sex marriage from adopting Russian children.

Earlier Tuesday, dozens of anti-gay activists picketed the Duma. One of them held a poster that read: "Lawmakers, protect the people from perverts!" while others held Orthodox icons and chanted prayers.

Let's not be naive about what is happening here.

Here's another Opinion from CNN

There's a rumor that the next law will remove children from same-sex couples. Terrified parents have started sending their children away.

Some think the witch hunt against gays shows Putin is trying to deflect attention as the economy slows down and perhaps playing defense against opposition accusations that his friends have stolen as much as $30 billion in money earmarked for the Olympics.

Quite honestly It was a rumor that Putin would sign a law banning gay adoption a few months ago -- then this happened.



Mr. Fierstein should be listened to:

A few days earlier, just six months before Russia hosts the 2014 Winter Games, Mr. Putin signed a law allowing police officers to arrest tourists and foreign nationals they suspect of being homosexual, lesbian or “pro-gay” and detain them for up to 14 days. Contrary to what the International Olympic Committee says, the law could mean that any Olympic athlete, trainer, reporter, family member or fan who is gay — or suspected of being gay, or just accused of being gay — can go to jail.

Earlier in June, Mr. Putin signed yet another antigay bill, classifying “homosexual propaganda” as pornography. The law is broad and vague, so that any teacher who tells students that homosexuality is not evil, any parents who tell their child that homosexuality is normal, or anyone who makes pro-gay statements deemed accessible to someone underage is now subject to arrest and fines. Even a judge, lawyer or lawmaker cannot publicly argue for tolerance without the threat of punishment.

This isn't good at all. It's not hyperbole, it is happening.

[HiPointDem]

30. those don't support your claim of genocide.

[Raine1967]

19. I'd go with 4 of 5.

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

See my post (#18)

[LWolf]

3. Neither. nt

[dawg]

4. The real question is what are we?

We can't be both.

[AgingAmerican]

5. We have forced him to stay there

So it's irrelevant in the context of the Snowden affair.

[treestar]

21. He chose to go there

He was trying to get to Ecuador at the time, thought he could go via Havana and found out Cuba was not having him.

He chose to flee the US (about which he supposedly cares so much).

[AgingAmerican]

27. He hasn't had much choice in the matter

...with the US going around threatening countries that try to help him.

[treestar]

28. We don't have much proof there were any "threats."

That's become part of his fans' narrative. They keep repeating it until they believe it.

[AgingAmerican]

29. Well...

US Lawmakers Want Sanctions on Any Country Taking In Snowden

A U.S. Senate panel voted unanimously on Thursday to seek trade or other sanctions against Russia or any other country that offers asylum to former spy agency contractor Edward Snowden, who has been holed up for weeks at a Moscow airport.

The 30-member Senate Appropriations Committee adopted by consensus an amendment to a spending bill that would direct Secretary of State John Kerry to meet with congressional committees to come up with sanctions against any country that takes Snowden in.

[MattSh]

32. Don't bother arguing with treestar

He post similar points on 10+ threads per day.

He likely has more time on his hands then you do.

[quinnox]

6. Putin has performed a noble service for a patriot/hero like Snowden

He is to be commended.

[Blue_In_AK]

7. Do we really know?

Russia/USSR has been so demonized for the past 60+ years by US propaganda, it would be nearly impossible to know what goes on there unless one actually lived it.

[MattSh]

34. Thanks for that Blue!

I've been living close to eight years now in Kiev, former USSR. And it's not all that difficult to find people here that long for the good old days of the USSR. It's definitely more prominent since the financial crises of 2008.

[Blue_In_AK]

36. And thank you for that perspective, MattSh.

[Harmony Blue]

8. Russia is a beautiful place

Moscow has lots to do however pollution can be a major health problem if you are not carefull.

[limpyhobbler]

10. Slightly worse than the US.

More oppressor than bastion of liberty, but not enough so to get me to vote in this poll.

[millennialmax]

11. One of the most oppressive civilized nations in the world. eom

[JaneyVee]

12. The worst of all developed Nations.

[treestar]

20. The anti-gay think is particularly disappointing

They clearly have nothing like the First Amendment. That right there, puts the United States miles ahead of them.

[Posteritatis]

22. Oy. (nt)

[99Forever]

23. Push polls are for chumps...

... and those that use them are tools.

This one is especially lame.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Will Snowden have more, or less, freedom in Russia or a cell in The Land of the Free?

How can anyone willingly wear the blinders necessary for seeing the United States as an advocate for Human Freedom?

[liberal_at_heart]

26. I just find it hilarious how angry all of this is making those who want to see Snowden arrested.

All super powers are corrupt. Russia fixes elections, suppresses free speech, jails protesters, sends weapons to Syria, makes homosexuality illegal. In the USA the rich buy elections, buy and control the media, the government kills innocent people with drones, sends weapons to Syria, supports a military takeover in Egypt, spy on its citizens, jails Occupy protesters. Neither country is a bastion of freedom. Could both be described as human oppressors? I guess that depends on your perspective. I just find it amusing how angry him being in Russia makes people that want to see Snowden arrested and tried for treason.

[Alamuti Lotus]

31. Neither, and this false dichotomy is a tragic sign of the prevailing rampant hysteria on the subject

[Bonobo]

33. Sounds like a poll written by a 1st grader.

Nice to see that the level of intellectual discourse has risen above kindergarten level.

[cali]

35. hey, so does mine!

I can do first grader polls too! Thanks for voting.

[MjolnirTime]

37. I know my job is done when the petty patrol arrives.

I was sad to see that the Old Elm got a bad case of rot.

Where do you gather to bitch about DU and Democrats now?

Or do you just spend all your time snarking this place up these days?