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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOld tobacco playbook gets new use by e-cigarettes
By MICHAEL FELBERBAUM — AP Tobacco Writer
RICHMOND, Va. — Companies vying for a stake in the fast-growing electronic cigarette business are reviving the decades-old marketing tactics the tobacco industry used to hook generations of Americans on regular smokes.
They're using cab-top and bus stop displays, sponsoring race cars and events, and encouraging smokers to "rise from the ashes" and take back their freedom in slick TV commercials featuring celebrities like TV personality Jenny McCarthy.
The Food and Drug Administration plans to set marketing and product regulations for electronic cigarettes in the near future. But for now, almost anything goes.
"Right now it's the wild, wild west," Mitch Zeller, director of the FDA's Center for Tobacco Products, said in a recent interview with The Associated Press.
Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2013/08/03/3006329/old-tobacco-playbook-gets-new.html#storylink=cpy
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elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)not to nonsmokers and kids. Their headline is deceptive.
Pelican
(1,156 posts)
msongs
(73,754 posts)peddlers in action 2 days a week and listen to their pitch to passers by. these devices are heavily marketed to non smokers by these "sales" men as being the latest cool thing to do. they are pitched to non-smokers as flavors to inhale, and come in a wide range of "flavors" (flavors being chemicals). the prospective users are told they are not addictive and do not contain nicotine unless, of course, one wants to add nicotine...wink wink nudge nudge
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)may use them for the extrordinary flavors....I find the sweet flavors
curb my appetite for sweets.
Warpy
(114,615 posts)with e-cigs. It's pretty funny, after the first 2 weeks or so when their sense of taste comes back, they've switched to the sweeter nicotine flavors that don't taste anything like smoke. Eventually, they've just gone with the flavored stuff without nicotine.
The point is that they've been able to get first off cigarettes and then off nicotine and that is winning in my book.
However, am I the only one who thinks the "rise from the ashes," "take our freedom back" guy is more than a little whiny sounding?
Tyhanna
(145 posts)do you eat anything that has flavor? Those are the same flavors that are used in the e-juice.
Food grade flavorings.
"peddlers in action 2 days a week and listen to their pitch to passers by."
not sure what you mean by that ? are you sure they are non-smokers, I don't believe anyone that is a non-smoker would be interested in them at all. How would you know just in watching ( I assume from a distance, indoors) who would be a non-smoker and who would be a smoker. I believe you are assuming many things here and don't have full facts in what you are seeing. Did you ask each and everyone of those people if they were non-smokers? There are those non-smokers that used to be smokers that still get cravings for "the cigarette" that using an e-cig with no nicotine in them helps them.
There is a huge world out there of e-cigarette community and I don't know of anyone that is marketing to anyone but smokers.
You are condemning something you know nothing about, that are helping millions to get away from cigarettes and early death.
You call it a drug, yes it is, so is caffeine. You eat chocolate? Drink coffee, im sure you don't call coffee companies drug peddlers, or chocolate companies drug peddlers.
Do you eat tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, red peppers, green peppers? if so you are getting a very small amount of that same drug ,nicotine. Yes they all belong to the nightshade plant category. Second to tobacco eggplant has the next highest amount of nicotine in it. I don't think farmers of these vegetables products are called drug peddlers.
Nicotine has benefits also you might try getting a bit of education about what you are talking about.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)The bartender noticed and asked them to stop. They got agitated and claimed they weren't smoking. The bartender asked 'then why were you hiding them?'
They threw down some money in a huff and left.
Besides nicotine, one of the primary components of these Chinese products is basically antifreeze. Expect them to be rolled into existing smoking restrictions.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)They containe nicotine and propylene glycol or vegetable glycerin. It doesn't contain anti-freeze. HOWEVER, PG is IN antifreeze, as well as oral pharmaceuticals, Corexit, "Fog Juice" (for fog machines), and many other things. It's generally considered to be safe. When Antifreeze is made from PG, it is labeled as "Non-Toxic Antifreeze", however, this is NOT the antifreeze we use in vehicles. It's mostly used in the food industry for cooling equipment.
Also, E-Cigs don't have smoke. It's pure vapor. I cup mine as well. It helps to get a better draw, as most E-Cigs have a couple carburator holes, and don't give you the same draw as "analog" cigs.
Raven
(14,275 posts)nic, nothing harmful. They are helping me quit the real things.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)How could that hurt anyone?
It's 'pure.'
It's 'vapor.'
They should stick them in the mouth of babies as they draw their first breath.
GUNS N’ ROSES’ DJ ASHBA BLAMES E-CIGARETTES FOR NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE
The debate over whether or not e-cigarettes can be used as an effective smoking cessation device has been raging for years — but according to Guns N’ Roses‘ D.J. Ashba, there ain’t nothing like the real thing.
In fact, Ashba blames his dabbling with electronic cigarettes — which use a vapor delivery mechanism to simulate the smoking experience — with nearly ending his life. The story came out on Instagram (via Blabbermouth), where a photo Ashba posted of himself holding a cigarette prompted a fan to ask, “I thought you quit the cigs, man?”
Responding that he gave up real cigarettes for nine months, but swapped them out for e-cigarettes that he “bought in a mall in Poland,” Ashba said he ended up learning the hard way that they “contained high doses of nicotine and antifreeze, which kills people.”
Continued Ashba, “Nobody knows this, but I was rushed to the hospital put on heart monitors and I had eight of the best doctors trying to save my life. Poison control confirmed that the nicotine intake that was going into my body from the fake cigarettes was equivalent to smoking 33 packs of cigarettes a day.”
http://ultimateclassicrock.com/guns-n-roses-dj-ashba-near-death-experience
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)in them and they come in different levels of nicotine, including no nicotine.
jmowreader
(53,194 posts)If you're not familiar with glycols, you might think one is the same as another...ethylene glycol, propylene glycol, what's the difference? And ethylene glycol is half the price, so it must be better. Remember, young person, that these juices are largely made in China, the land of the melamine cat food.
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)I buy juice made in the US with vegetable glycerine.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)Tyhanna
(145 posts)more like he was covering up for something else he did. He would have to have drank a bottle of juice to have those kinds of effects. Or he was doing some bad drugs. Either way the correct use of the juice and e-cigarettes do not cause what happened to him.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)dictating everyone's behavior. The true authoritarian mindset.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)substances be they nicotine, caffeine, HFCS, MSG, hormones, herbicides, nitrates,
pesticides, refined or artificial sugars, ad infinitum.
I say, "To each his own (poison)."
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)This latest strain of nosey, busy-body, puritanism is particularly irritating to me.
Since you can smoke in bars and casinos here, we get them fairly regularly. They always throw a fit and then become enraged when everybody tells them that if they don't like it, they are free to leave. There are non-smoking areas and even whole casinos for them, but they don't like to go to those places because they are full of other people just like them, and therefore, no fun.
How can someone come to the biggest 24/7/365 party on earth and whine about what people are doing?
Edit: And they are generally shitty tippers, bad losers, and worse winners.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)puritanism..." It could get worse.....3rd hand smoke!
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Which is nonsense. Read up on this a little more, please. E-cigs have the potential to help millions of people stop a deadly habit.
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)...or at least switch to a less deadly form.
What I am against is the marketing of e-cigs to a whole new generation as a stylish and clean way to get permanently addicted to nicotine (which causes heart disease, disability and death, btw).
The world is full of kids now who don't remember how the cigarette industry manufactured studies about how harmless they were for decades, how they marketed aggressively to kids, and how they spent millions and millions trying to stifle the legal battle here, all the while being the leading cause of death in the US.
What bothers me now is that I asked my teenage kids the other day if they knew what "vaping" was, of course they knew, and what supposed to be wrong with it anyway? Their friends thought it was cool, though none of them had tried it yet...
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)I have seen the ads for "Blu," which interestingly, was a small e-cig company before being bought out by the tobacco company Lorillard, that seem to mimic the old "Marlboro Man" nonsense from decades ago. I would agree to the extent that is going on it's not a good thing and ought to be regulated appropriately. No young person should be encouraged to take up an addictive habit of any kind (although apparently we're all cool with caffeine addiction).
But I would LOVE to see the tobacco industry replaced with the e-cig industry to the largest extent possible. Nicotine is apparently a drug humans are going to use. Shouldn't be encouraged in general, as it's addictive and has some potential harmful effects of its own.
But it is NOT smoking, or even comparable to chewing tobacco, and besides being far less annoying and toxic to bystanders, is by all appearances vastly less harmful to the user. And smokers are telling stories of quitting, sometimes instantly, using these.
It irks to see people who think it's somehow the morality of nicotine use that needs to be quashed, rather than inhaling and exhaling thousands of carcinogens. They give the impression of a puritanical attitude, and a desire to prevent ex-smokers from "getting away with it" by way of an entirely different activity they really have no business complaining about or trying to "ban."
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Nicotine has about the same negative health effects as caffeine, meaning at worst very minor. Nicotine does not cause heart disease, disability or death. Nicotine does cause a temporary rise in blood pressure and heart rate, the same as exercise. So far the evidence is showing that electronic cigarettes are about 99% less harmful then smoking. Nicotine is not the problem, it's the smoke that kills.
Hopefully kids will learn that smokeless tobacco and electronic cigarettes are vastly less harmful then smoking, and if they do choose to use tobacco/nicotine they will stay away from cigarettes.
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)There are many, many small businesses here in the U.S. that manufacture there own blends for use in vaping devices. Sure, the batteries may be made in China, but the liquid that turns into vapor and you inhale can be American made if you go onto the internet and shop around.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)I've read to be wary of Chinese blends.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)The components in e-juice is pharma grade Propylene Glycol used wildly in the breathing atomizers, medicines, fog machines, and is also found in antifreeze but so is water. pharma grade glycerin, food quality flavoring and pharma grade nicotine.
That same nicotine that is used in patches, gums and lozenges. More e-juice is made here in the US than in china.
Now I don't expect you would be educated on e-cigarettes but I would think you would know what you are talking about before you enter a comment here.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Must have to drink alcohol when smoking them.
KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...as many former smokers are using it as a way to wean themselves off of cigarettes. They like using a patch as another way to cut down on their intake of nicotine without the other nasty and toxic chemicals that are not only harmful to smokers but to those who inhale the smoke. We've had endless threads here about the benefits of E-Cigs and generally those who don't use them will bash them as some kind of trojan horse to make smoking acceptable again. Truth is that moving to an E-Cig is costing big tobacco what's left of their domestic market and fear of E-cigs catching on abroad that would devastate their most lucrative markets. They want to legislate it out of existence and help stoke improper perceptions of the dangers of the E-Cig in hopes of keeping as many people hooked as they can for as long as they can. Many state governments are going along cause they rely on tobacco taxes and E-Cigs cut into their money pie as well...
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)Blu is a Lorillard subsidiary (Newport, Old Gold, etc), and Vuse is RJ Reynolds. Phillip Morris is MarkTen. They'll all be in it full-swing by the end of the year, though it may take a little while to mop up the little guys. It sounds like they're revving their engines like its the 50's again, no holds barred.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)If the problem with big tobacco was that they were selling a deadly product, and they now wish to sell a vastly less deadly product, what's so sinister?
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)...if it just gives you disabling heart disease this way, instead of the longer list of problems that smoking the stuff gives you, then its just fine to go big with the marketing?
I'm sure big tobacco learned their lesson the last time around, so they wouldn't do anything underhanded like market it to young people, or try to convince people it was harmless, and more matter of individual choice and style, things like that.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)... a different issue.
3) You can't glibly conflate the vastly lesser health effects of nicotine, which has hardly been proven the cause of "disabling heart disease" with the enormous cancer risk associated with smoking or chewing tobacco. There is no indication that e-cigs are within 1,000% of the health risks of smoking.
Sounds to me like you've formed an irrational hatred for anything tobacco adjacent, and are thus unable to make a qualitative distinction between two very different things.
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)Tobacco still has no challengers as the number one cause of diseases leading to death in the US ( http://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/resources/publications/aag/osh.htm ). I think its perfectly rational to be at least a little bit perturbed by that, even if one wasn't aware of the parade of misinformation they trotted out dismissing the dangers back in the 60's and 70's, trying to keep the money flowing in from addicts.
It seems they are doing the same kind of misinformation campaign now promoting e-cigs. What bothers me most is that it seems to be working.
Nicotine causes heart disease: http://content.onlinejacc.org/article.aspx?articleid=1121737 and http://www.businessinsider.com/e-cigarette-health-effects-2013-5 . The "incredible cigarette that doesn't cause cancer" still causes "heart disease, stroke, heart attacks and other ailments." The lack of research isn't exactly a cause for relaxation.
And as far as big tobacco not being involved, that was my main point earlier - they are heavily involved, and expect them to have nearly the whole market in a year or two. All the growth goes to those who can advertise, produce and distribute most effectively. That's just the way those things go when little companies bring a new trend, competing with cash-rich old guys. What happened when little juice brands and sports drinks started taking market share from Coke and Pepsi in the 80's? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-20/e-cigarette-pioneers-holding-breath-as-big-firms-invade-retail.html
In any case, the big deal will ben how the FDA decides to regulate this. Billions of dollars of profits are on the line, and the business of selling addiction is always one of the most lucrative, so I would expect to see a massive misinformation campaign. Same crap, different decade...
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Again, far as I'm aware, one e-cig maker was bought by one tobacco company.
If it were true, or became true, that would still not somehow make e-cigs the same product as cigarettes and chewing tobacco. The problem with tobacco use has always been the health risk. Not that nicotine or anyone selling it is inherently evil.
There's no lack of research on nicotine. It poses a risk of heart disease. It is not remotely in the same universe as the constellation of lethal health problems associated with smoking or chewing tobacco. No one is flipping out over nicotine patches or gums or pretending those things are somehow the same as smoking.
Why are you?
You then make some kind of leap regarding "misinformation" that is not supported by the facts. There is no indication "big tobacco" is out there lying about e-cigs. If anything, the misinformation, as illustrated in this thread, cuts in the other direction. E-cigs do not contain "anti-freeze." They do not disperse "clouds of nicotine" into the atmosphere. They simply do not contain the substances that are the entire point of the problems with smoking.
The FDA has determined, last I'd heard, to regulate e-cigs as a tobacco product, because the nicotine used in the fluid is in most cases derived from tobacco plants. Thus, there will likely be the usual restrictions on sales or advertising to minors. A good thing, to be sure.
Your conclusion that it's "the same crap, different decade" is irrational. You are equating two entirely different things, one of which has the potential to save millions of people and their families from devastating health problems, on no basis other than your notion that anything related to nicotine is somehow evil.
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)Imperial Tobacco and British American Tobacco have also set up divisions to produce or buy up producers of e-cigs. Now you are more aware. Its a billion dollar industry right now, and they expect it to double in size every year for some time to come.
Its not a matter of nicotine or tobacco or anything being "evil" (whatever that is supposed to mean), but it is an addictive narcotic that causes heart disease, among other things. It bothers me that it would be marketed in a way targeting young people, in a way that implies it is perfectly safe. Through the 50's, 60's and early 70's big tobacco marketing targeted young people in the same way, as market-share depended on how many of each new generation they were able to get addicted. Once addicted, they typically had a customer for life.
Here is a good article on current advertising trends: http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nation-and-world/old-tobacco-playbook-gets-new-use-e-cigarettes
Same crap, different decade. I realize they're not nearly as bad a smoking, but its the same players, the same narcotic, and the same technique of popularizing and marketing addiction.
" Blu is Lorillard, Vuse is RJ Reynolds, Markten is Phillip Morris"
Yeah, those three companies have thrown their hat in the ring, and other tobacco companies are looking at doing so. this isn't news. What IS news, is the reason they're doing it. Because vaping is cutting into their profits.
From an end user standpoint, however, those companies are a drop in the bucket.
Are you a smoker? Do you know just how addictive regular cigs are and why? Or do you simply go by what others tell you. Having lived this myself, I feel I'm more than qualified to chime in here.
The "addiction" to nicotine, pales in comparison to the "addiction" to cigarettes.
First theres the "addiction" to the act of smoking itself, irrespective of the drugs involved. E-cigs like the ones big tobacco makes fit that addiction in only the most borderline way, for anyone that smoked anything more than casually. They do not give one the "content" enough to feel like you're inhaling anything, between the vapor and the throat hit.
Second, theres the drug part of the "addiction". Ignorant folks lay this at the feet of nicotine, but I'm here to tell you it just isn't so simple. Cigarettes where the combined effect of nicotine and maio inhibitors are involved, produces a STRONG addiction. When one tries to quit, one fights the effects of the maio inhibitors much harder than the nicotine alone.
I smoked for 26 years, and I didn't just smoke, I took huge drags and inhaled them deeply. Quitting in the past involved nicotine gun, lozenges, the patch, etc, but those things NEVER stopped any cravings, both because they didn't alleviate the addiction to the act of smoking, and because they did not have the maoi inhibitors. Vaping, on the other hand, takes care of 2/3 of it when one switches. It simulates the act of smoking, and gives the nicotine, which is why it succeeds in spite of not having maio inhibitors where those other things fail.
What this means at the end of the day, is this:
After over 6 months now, away from analogue ciggs, my addiction is barely distinguishable from caffeine addiction, and certainly nowhere near the heroine level "give me my fix before I start breaking shit" addiction. I crave the act of smoking, but when I don't vape for a while, its about on the same level as "shit I need some caffeine".
And, I'm just gonna lay this out here - I enjoyed smoking. I didn't like how it effected my health, and made me feel sometimes, and I didn't like the film it left on windows, the smell it left on myself and my clothes and inside my vehicle.
But I enjoyed the act.
Now I enjoy vaping. I enjoy the act of it as well as how it tastes. I'm tickled pink that it doesn't make myself or my clothes or vehicle smell like an ashtray. I'm amazed at how much better I feel, how much better I can breath and smell and taste. I don't have cravings for ciggs anymore.
"Same crap, different decade. I realize they're not nearly as bad a smoking, but its the same players, the same narcotic, and the same technique of popularizing and marketing addiction."
Its not the same players. There are TONS of vaping products maed by TONS of vaping companies.
Its NOT the same narcotic - as I said - tobacco with nicotine delivered into the bloodstream along side MAOI inhibitors is a completely different animal than nicotine delivered without.
And its not even the same addiction.
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)I have always heard the addiction laid blamed solely on the nicotine. I have friends who vacillate between smoking and chewing, and they say its about as hard to quit either, but switching between the two isn't hard.
If its not hard to switch from either to vaping, and then not as hard to stop vaping, then that's a very good selling point and very good news.
...on the other hand, if you look at how the market works, that "TONS of vaping companies" will be down to a few within a few years, and they will all be owned by the big tobacco companies. They have buttloads of cash, all the marketing and distribution experience, and every reason to buy up the competition. Use is expected to double every year, and growth goes to those who produce, advertise and distribute most prolifically, which will be the big tobacco companies.
With that said, and keeping in mind the whole thrust of the article the OP began with, why would big tobacco market e-cigs as way to quit smoking? Do people think they're idiots? They will market to young people first, as a way of bringing nicotine addiction back into the mainstream and growing market-share. E-cigs aren't as deadly as smoking, so that's less bad. And if the addiction is weaker as you say, then that's also not as bad. But problems remain, and I wouldn't want to see a bunch of kids sold into heart disease, when they just wanted to be like Mr. Cool (the Lorillard e-cig mascot)
beevul
(12,194 posts)"on the other hand, if you look at how the market works, that "TONS of vaping companies" will be down to a few within a few years, and they will all be owned by the big tobacco companies."
That is a worry for some of us...but the problem for the tobacco companies, is that while they no doubt understand the nature of their tobacco products, they do not understand vaping. That's why some of them are buying instead of building, and the ones that are building, are building a poor product from the viewpoint of those that use them.
Heres what a vaper knows that tobacco companies don't:
The device I use, for example is this:
That's just the power device - that is, it provides the power to a heating coil to vaporize the juice. This particular one is an anyvape cvi-2, but there are a plethora of them, google up vamo, or smokteck sid, or sigelei zmax, or gripper, or provari. you'll likely get more than you bargained for lol. Those are just a few of many out there.
Inside it uses these batteries:
They're referred to as 18650 format batteries - 18 mm wide, and 65.0 mm tall. There are several others, such as 18350 for example, but the 18650 format is the dominant format.
The juice containing portion of my setup is like this :
That's a tank, inside which fits the cartridge shown. The cart has one to three holes in it which allow the juice to keep the inside of the cart around the coil wet, and provide consistent vapor when heated. the drip tip fits inside the business end of the cart, and the streaded end of the cart threads into the device.
Assembled, with juice in it, and threaded on a device it looks like this:
Now, from the outside, it might look, or even seem, to some people, that using all that is a bit extreme...and that's just one of the mistakes tobacco companies are making.
Heres a pic of a blu ecig vs real:
That blu ecig lasts an 1-3 hours before needing charging, and about the same before the cartridge needs topped off.
The setup I showed you - the device and battery...well, for a heavy vaper like myself, the battery lasts 1-2 days before being swapped to a fully charged one.
The cartridge and tank I showed you - lasts a full day before needing a refill, and the cartridge itself lasts 1-3 weeks before wearing out, and needing to be changed to a new one.
Put simply - the tobacco companies don't have any idea just how inferior no matter the quality, of the product they're working on, but the people that use these things most certainly do.
And that is why they'll fail.
People go into switching thinking they want a "cigalike". My SO and I did. Everyone we know whos made the switch has. And to the last, it only takes a very short time before one realizes that cigalikes just don't cut it. Its much less about the size of the device, and much more about whether the device gives the person what they need to fill the void that smoking took up.
We started the the mystics which are disposable. They flat out suck, they taste terrible, they fall apart, and they have way too short battery capacity.
We moved on to halo - another company and their G6 model:
They are good quality, but they still miss the mark in terms of how long the batteries last, and needing to charge them. They are somewhere along the line of 280mah battery capacity. By way of comparison, the batteries myself and my SO use are 3400 mah.
All of the above "cigalike" batteries also have the downside of giving one different vapor, throat hit, and experience when the battery is fully charged, versus half life, versus almost needing recharge, because the heating coil in the cart makes different heat/vapor/taste differently at different voltages.
Then we moved to "ego style batteries, and variable voltage/variable wattage - which i'll refer to as variable power from here on out/. Variable power allows one to adjust the heat of the heating coil within the cartridge up or down, basically allowing one to adjust the vapor level and throat hit and flavor up or down. Not only that, but it also gives the same heat at any given power level, and therefore the same level of vapor, throat hit, and flavor, whether the battery is fresh, mid level charge, or almost needing a recharge.
I realize I covered a lot there, but these are things that nobody outside of vapers, including the tobacco companies, would have the slightest idea of. They also happen to be the things that make vaping able to fill the void left by smoking when one switches though.
Again, this is why they'll fail. Sure, they'll get some one off sales. Lots of them even. But people do and will move on to devices that better fit a void that only they can understand.
As far as marketing to kids...well, you look up just about any vape shop, and they only sell to adults. After being off the analogues only a month or so, tobacco tasted terrible to us, and we wanted something different - whether it was bakery type flavor, or sweet mixed drink sort of flavor. Anything but tobacco. Most others I talk to share that experience.
Also studies are coming to light, that are calling into question, just how much effect nicotine without the other chemicals and the maoi inhibitors really has on heart disease. I'll see if I can dig them up.
Sorry for the length, but vaping, and e-cigs are a far far more complex thing than most would believe at first glance.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)As a vaper myself it is nice to see others informed on the issue and willing to educate.
Almost a year now without an analog and I will never go back.
Its important to dispel the myths, ya know?
Congratz on almost a year.
Tyhanna
(145 posts)Nicotine does not cause heart disease.
http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research/95-effects-of-electronic-cigarette-use-on-myocardial-function
Kids will smoke whether we what them to or not. All threw time kids have experimented with all kinds of things including smoking, peer pressure, rebellion, or just because.
They are marketed to smokers plain and simple. To get people away from smoking where NTRs have not worked for them. And there are those that don't want to quit smoking.
The e-cig community work every day to get people off smoking introducing them to the e-cig and vaping. We work all the time to get people away from cigarettes and educate those that don't understand. We are condemned all the time for doing the right thing and leaving cigarettes. We are punished by having to stand with the smokers, where we don't want second hand smoke, we are non-smokers now and don't want all that going into our lungs anymore but nobody thinks about that because we are just the skurg because we did smoke.
Well I don't want to be around people that use alcohol and smell their breath, worry about if they are going to drive and who they are going to kill. But alcohol and all its fun flavors are ok? And the marketing in stores with bright colors and fun use of animals is not targeting kids? No that is ok because alcohol has been normalized and everyone has to have their 5 o'clock cocktail. Parents don't think twice about letting their children have caffeine, but caffeine has the same or worse side effect as nicotine. Nicotine is about the same in its addictiveness as caffeine when without burning tobacco and all the chemicals and MAOI that is present in tobacco.
The e-cig is no different than using the Nicotrol inhaler. No one would say a word to someone using one of them in public and exhaling the vapor from them. Or what about that person using gum or lozenges that have nicotine on the breath all the time. The gum and lozenges come In fun flavors but you don't see kids running down and using them.
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)because nicotine does cause heart disease, which is the number one cause of death in the US. The study you posted was interesting, and agrees very much with the "e-cigs aren't as bad as smoking" conclusion. But it was a very limited study looking at just one effect. There have been several studies like that over the years, to make sure e-cigs and other nicotine products are safe for people who have had heart attacks and so forth.
On the other hand, the long term effect of nicotine is to cause heart disease. http://www.medicaldaily.com/articles/9169/20120223/cigarette-smoke-nicotine-cardiovascular-disease-benefits-smoke-free-products.htm and so forth. The primary actor in the problems that smoking causes for the heart is nicotine; that's been established for decades.
If you want to say e-cigs are much less harmful, no argument. And I hope that the addictive property of nicotine is less with e-cigs as well, which would mean that people would have an easier time stopping if their health required it. But you still don't get to say nicotine doesn't cause heart disease, because it always has. It reminds me of someone who told me once that meth itself isn't bad for you, its just the chemicals and impurities in the street stuff that gets you. Pffft!
Tyhanna
(145 posts)Could it be possible that study you linked is slanted to the ANTZ side?
Here is an article
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-25/e-cigarettes-pose-no-risk-of-heart-disease-study-finds
sorry linked wrong thing
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8614291
If nicotine was so dangerous then why would FDA approve it to be used in NTRs and have just taken off the restrictions they had on the instructions of use? and why would they using nicotine patches in studies for Alzheimer's and other memory problems.
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)which means...keeping an open mind, and looking forward to more research. It will probably be some time before we have good conclusive information about the long term effect of e-cigs in human. Obviously they are a far better choice than cigarettes, and I'd be happy to see everybody switch. If they do turn out to be harmless, that would really be something.
Thanks for the links and information.
beevul
(12,194 posts)While big tobacco has thrown their hat in the ring, they are a minority when it comes to who owns e-cig companies.
And they are literally years behind, with their "cigalike" products, which last a couple hours before needing charging, and tobacco flavors which most folks don't want to taste after a few weeks off the analogues.
Mine looks like this:
Second pic for size reference:
Its one of several hundred made by various numerous companies, none of which really have anything to do with big tobacco, and none but the tiniest fraction wish to have anything to do with big tobacco.
What you call "the little guys" are companies that make products that that "big tobacco" can't compete with, unless they abandon the "cigalike" which they will not do. They, like so many other companies, do not understand the people they're trying to sell to, or their needs.
Dig around here and see for yourself:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/
Most of us, do not wish to be around tobacco smoke. Most of us do not wish to give "big tobacco" so much as another dime, particularly after learning of how maoi inhibitors are used in tobacco, and in fact want nothing to do with them.
Its worth mentioning, that "blu", isn't a creation of Lorillard...it was bought by them rather than created. In general, big tobacco ignored e-cigs initially and for a long enough time that they might never catch up to the vaping world in its current state.
Tyhanna
(145 posts)started this year to jump on the band wagon. E-cigs have been around for 10 years first in Europe and then here in the US in about 2008. Many many companies make e-cigs, its been said about 200 companies now. Njoy is one of them. Then there is the makers of the Provari. Not all e-cigs look like the little cig-look alikes. There are many Chinese companies that have been making e-cigs for the time e-cigs have been out. This is what mine looks like....
fits in the palm of my hand.
Tobacco companies did not come up with the idea, a Chinese pharmacist did 10 years ago. And here in the US in 1965 the first e-cig was patented. Tobacco companies have a market but the larger market is not cig look alikes. Most people that start with cig look alikes move on to something larger and better.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)I didn't think about that.
Follow the money.
KharmaTrain
(31,706 posts)...from my own personal experience. I smoked almost 2 packs a day for nearly 35 years...switched to ECigs two years ago and haven't had a "regular" cig since. At the time I stop with cigarettes, I was paying upwards of $7 a pack...of which $4.00 went to taxes...I figure it worked out to close to $100 a week or $5,200 a year. My Ecig costs me about $50 a month or about $600 for the year...I deal with a company that boasts "Made in the U.S.A."
I understand the concern about glamorizing E-Cigs to lure young kids into thinking they're cool and I don't agree with that. However for those who got hooked on tobacco and are looking for a way out, this has been the most effective method I've found. I'd never encourage anyone who doesn't smoke to using one but I surely do to my friends who still smoke cigarettes.
Unfortunately we've allowed "sin" taxes to fund some of our more crucial infrastructure matters...including schools. Hopefully the drop in cigarette smokers will break them of their addiction of taxing smokers and drinkers (and I don't drink) and go after the wealthier instead.
Cheers...
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)However, I can see where the lack of tax income coming will unfortunately entice politicians to want to tax it.
Tyhanna
(145 posts)There are those in the health organizations like ACS that are going to locality's where they are voting on age restriction for minors and asking them not to vote that into law. This happened in RI not to long ago. The bill was voted down to restrict minors under 18 from buying them. We are not sure why they are doing this. I believe there is an agenda they have, probably 99.9% of all places that sell e-cigs wont sell to anyone under 18 as it is.
The e-cigs was abroad before it was here, in the EU about 7 million use e-cigs. Here in US and Canada its about 2.5 million. With more jumping on board everyday. There are countries that depend off revenue that cigarettes make and they have ban e-cigs. They all see the threat e-cigs present. This is far more about money and politics than the safety of e-cigarettes. Anyone with half a mind can see they don't present the problems of burning tobacco and are safer to use. They are an alternative to smoking. And are a tobacco harm reduction. They also see people have been using them for 4+ years here and are healthier than they were while smoking. They also see all the research coming out in the last couple years showing the safety of them, and the ANTZ work up junk science studies to scare the people away from them. And in those junk science studies they don't explain any of the numbers they are getting and are using it to get laws put in place, that would be California right now.
Localities in states are worried that the money the get from taxes that they are addicted to just like states and the federal government will go away with the onset of e-cigs because more and more are using them and walking away from cigarettes. So they are doing everything they can to minimize this. There are a lot of dirty little secrets out there between the BP, and health organizations.
They were very comfortable with the high failure rate NTRs have show in the last 5-10 years. Its the gift that keeps on giving for the BP. It also met that cigarettes were still being used and more were getting addicted to them and more taxes were made, every so often they would raise the sin tax on cigarettes to make more money. E-cigs are a less health threat so they wouldn't be able to justify putting a heavy sin tax on them, and with new studies out showing nicotine is no worse than caffeine when its by its self they really couldn't justify it to the people.
I can see a future of no burning tobacco if the powers to be will just let the e-cig market grow. I thought this is what they all wanted, no body smoking.
msongs
(73,754 posts)cigarettes. Maybe you want everyone else to inhale your second hand nicotine int he name of your addiiction but the rest of us would rather not, thanks
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)It's a vapor that contains small amounts (although it's debatable if there's really any) nicotine that is inhaled and absorbed into the lungs. The resulting "smoke" is nothing more than a harmless vapor containing nothing more than PG or VG. No odor, no "poison". I could take a puff, blow it in your face, and all you'd smell is my bad breath from the slice of pizza I just ate.
Educate before you opinionate.
tritsofme
(19,900 posts)bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)but the real money is in selling addiction. I wouldn't be fooled into thinking that nicotine-free vaping is ever going to be more than a small fraction of the market. Why would it?
Tyhanna
(145 posts)hum addictions are a funny thing, you can be addicted to sugar, caffeine, alcohol, sports, exorcise, collecting items, shopping, adrenalin and many more things.
What causes an addiction. Chemicals in the pleasure center of the brain. Adrenalin being released, and other chemicals that make you feel happy or feel good. so how many things do you do that makes you feel good and you do repeatedly for that good feeling?
There are benefits to nicotine, there are things that it helps. You have been made to believe nicotine is bad, but its not the evil that you think it is. its the burning paper and tobacco that cause all the problems with health in cigarettes. Nicotine has been taking the rap for cigarettes for a long long time.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/drugs-alcohol/nicotine-health-benefits.htm
there is a long laundry list of things they are finding nicotine helps.
Response to msongs (Reply #18)
Post removed
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)However, I've contemplated filling one with hashish oil. Wouldn't be able to hide the smell, but theoretically, it would vape it just fine. Now, if only I could find hashish oil.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)My mistake. It gets hard to tell the difference around here.
I have to use it when posting on Facebook a LOT.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)RB TexLa
(17,003 posts)I can not stand that! We have to stop them from doing things they enjoy. We can't have a country where people just do things they like to do! I can stand it! It can't be allowed!!
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Tyhanna
(145 posts)studies have been done there is no harm in second hand vapor. There was no detected nicotine in the vapor. Propylene glycol and water vapor. Its very much different than cigarettes but I wouldn't expect you to understand that. Most people don't educate themselves about something they don't understand.
This is one of the studies
http://www.ivaqs.com/
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)It would seem that the ingredients would not be completely consumed by the smoker and would be exhaled.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)If for no other reason that when anti-smoking zealots start squealing about the "dangers" of second-hand marijuana smoke, people will tell the anti-smoking zealots to get fucked.
mick063
(2,424 posts)Regulating their use will be extremely difficult except for those that blatantly display it.
Go back to a dark corner, wait until no one is watching, and inhale a couple times. You can literally "smoke" in the bathroom and no one is the wiser.
As a former smoker that uses e cigs, I find much more "latitude" in their use.
It is the lack of odor that makes the difference.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)lets me smoke it in the store. Although, sometimes, I prefer to go outside with it... But that's more of a walking away from the store and taking a break sort of thing.
beevul
(12,194 posts)I vape several flavors that leave an aroma, but its rather pleasant...
One is sort of a bakery cookie aroma, and one is a cinnamon aroma. One of my old flavors left a strong maple aroma.
All I ever heard from people about them was "whos cooking, and what are they cooking, that smells GOOD".
mick063
(2,424 posts)I do not smell odor at all, but if they are detected, the sheer variety of scents we collectively cloak ourselves with will mystify folks of the source.
beevul
(12,194 posts)Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Kind of like the "smoke" from a smoke machine.
mick063
(2,424 posts)These e-cigs (not the disposable type, but the refillable type) come with a replaceable wick.
The electrical current from the battery creates heat, through impedance within the wick, to vaporize liquid that is "wicked" from the fluid chamber. These wicks have a life span. That life span is determined by burn "damage" to the wick from repeated use, but more often from not being moist when current is discharged through it. Once that "burnt" taste is evident, it becomes increasingly nasty to the palate, as well as leaving a slightly burnt odor. An expired wick will leave that smoke odor.
I immediately replace the wick when that burnt taste is evident. Use an expired wick long enough, and it will "contaminate" the fluid within the chamber so that even when replacing the wick, the burn contaminated fluid will retain the same taste and smell properties.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)She is a bit of a cheapo. LOL. 
Tyhanna
(145 posts)If you were to smell mine it would either smell like coconut or big red gum, or maybe fruit depending on what im using that day.
I could be vaping and nobody would know it, I could stand right next to you and you wouldn't know it. I don't have to exhale the vapor.
We were vaping in a movie theater one night and nobody could see it or even tell.
Nicotine has no taste or smell.
gulliver
(13,985 posts)I don't really get the point of nicotine when there is caffeine, but I am completely on board with e-cigs wiping out smoking. It could qualify as one of the bigger positive health developments since the discovery of antibiotics.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Tyhanna
(145 posts)hum would it be better if she was smoking?
BlackHoleSon
(100 posts)Once you realize the vast superiority of choices and quality from the small businesses that live on the internet and in brick and mortar shops in your hometown, crap like Blu are quickly set aside.
I buy ALL my juices and hardware from small businesses.
And I am as respectful of where I vape as I was when I used real cigarettes.
Even though the "poisons" I am spewing out are marginal when compared to the toxic stew everybody walks around in, without comment, every day: diesel exhaust, power plant emissions, dry cleaners, ad nauseum.
mick063
(2,424 posts)I am glad to stimulate business in this section of town.
You are correct. There is a huge difference in quality of the devices as well as the taste of the fluids.
Someone that tries "Blue" for the first time might walk away wondering why anyone could smoke e-cigs. For me, it was downright nasty. I threw away a 100 bucks worth of stuff after about a week. Word of advice, don't spend a lot until you find the right one. I went through a variety of devices and flavors until I found the right combination. One can get extravagant purchasing this stuff and I do.
It is almost "cultish" for me now. I experiment using various mixes of flavors.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)and cheap as hell.
Sedona
(3,872 posts)made right here in Arizona. No kiddie flavors...tastes just like a Marlboro.
http://modernsmoke.com
PS.....
No real smokes in over two years, aside from a few puffs from a friend's cig, just to see if i'm "cured"
I am.
For us, its been a journey, more than a destination.
We took a long time and a lot of experimentation, to find devices that worked properly and filled our needs.
But the juice was much harder.
We have probably had between 1 and 2 hundred sample bottles, trying various flavors from different companies, until we found flavors that worked for us.
Our current is good life vapor. http://www.goodlifevapor.com/
I vape a "bakery" like flavor, which is very complex, called deadly sin, and my SO vapes "shockwave" and a few others.
They are top notch, but they are a "juice only" outfit...we get our hardware at gotvapes, myvaporstore, surevapes out of NJ, and a number of others
Over 6 months for us now, cig free, and we couldn't be happier about it. I smoked for 26 years, and she smoked for almost 40.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)is if you get the urge to have a cigarette and you do. It taste so damn awe full you instantly want your favorite juice back.
In the year I have been vaping I tried a cig twice when i was with friends. Both times I absolutely hated it, and it was even the brand i smoked for nearly 30 years.
Was very strange but also very cool to have such a positive reinforcement.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)It's just another front in the "my drugs are OK, but yours are evil" wars.
Either we believe in drug legalization or we don't.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)They say the e-cig is a liquid. They can make e-cig Redbull. 
Xithras
(16,191 posts)For various reasons, I'm strongly against personally ingesting any drugs of any sort, so I'll leave that one to someone else 
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)There is no one yet who is documented to have died from an e-cig. How many die every year from cigarettes?
There is no measurable transfer of nicotine second hand. So tell me, where's the beef? This is a breakthrough product. It should be encouraged, not restricted. There is no legitimate reason to interfere with it in any way.
As to kids? Without any exception that I've ever seen, every website requires an "I am over 18" clickthrough before entering the site. There is no promotion to kids being done. That is just bull, as is all of the anti-ecig propaganda.
Any politician who tries to interfere with ecigs is going to find that it is their Waterloo. It is simply being on the wrong side of history, yet again.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)and expect all the corruption, expense, jailing, police action, and manifest failure of American- Standard Prohibition Policy.
There is NO OTHER WAY with prohibitionism.