Face it... Americans are too comfortable with the idea of Fascism.

[nebenaube]

It's already over folks.

[Justice wanted]

1. I don't think they are so much comfortable with fascism they just don't recognize it as fascism

because they are taught fascism is done only one way. They are told it's a capitalistic society and they take it at face value instead of looking past the word.


For the past 30 years our schools have been teaching young people not to question or teach them logical reasoning. Therefore as adults they don't do it.

[Duct Tape]

2. +1 I agree. We've certainly heard enough Hitler/Fascist comparisions over the years to

suggest that they're not comfortable with it. When it comes down to policies, however, many are in the exact boat they're always accusing Obama and others of being in.

[brewens]

8. We had guys go fight fascism in WWII and not a have

any problem with it in our country. They never understood the politics in the first place. They were just going to fight the bad guys for their country. It's okay with them when we do the same stuff.

[Remember Me]

9. Yeah, they think it's capitalism, and we LOVE capitalism in this country, it's our national religion

And in fact, you can't speak against capitalism without being thought a crank, a crackpot, or a nut. UNPATRIOTIC as well.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. I had a right winger tell me that it's wrong to teach real history about this country

to kids in school. He told me they just would 'misinterpret' history. He thinks it's important to gloss over 'difficult' periods in this country's past and present, or they'll hate this country.

[RKP5637]

15. What dangerous thinking, absolutely dangerous. Cover up past mistakes so we can

repeat them. What a mind F.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. I know. I think it's part of their fear and inflexibility. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. I know. It's scary. It's fascist. That's what right wingers are. Fascists. nt

[RKP5637]

55. And also fits right into authoritarianism. Do not think, do as you're told, do not

question, I will tell you what is what. Yep, it's scary and ignorant.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

58. EXACTLY! The weird thing is that the right wing that told me that...

has the mind of a servant. He truly believes others have some sort of god-given right to be in charge, and he's cool with following orders and not questioning. In other words, he believes that he shouldn't question things. It's not just that he doesn't want others to question. I don't get it. What brings someone to this mental state of servility???

[RKP5637]

60. I'm convinced, as has been documented in some papers, that peoples minds are

hard-wired for this, be it genetic or conditioned, I just don't know.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

62. If some are hard-wired to be servants or tyrants...

the earth will continue to be a very unfair place. and the rest of us will have to fight these hard-wired whackos forever.

That's why I love Occupy.

[RKP5637]

63. Yep, same reasons I love Occupy!!! n/t

[saras]

69. It's not dumb, whatever else it is

"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn't work." - Irving Kristol, one of the founders of neoconservatism, from Origin of the Specious, Reason Magazine (July 1997)

They don't intend to cover up mistakes so much as hide them from the general public. The ruling class will continue, of course, to savage each other over their mistakes, but behind closed doors.

What's really bizarre is when people in the "students" and "educated adults" hold this philosophy as well.

[newspeak]

48. well, there goes

"some people say my country right or wrong; I say my country right and if it is wrong, I'll try to make it right." So, don't learn from the mistakes, just keep making them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

53. Yup. I believe right wingnuts think the REAL America is one that does things the right wingnut way

And the right wingnut way is quite evil. And they know the right wingnut way can be impeached constantly because it's wrong. And so I think that's why they try to whitewash all things that look negatively upon the U.S.

It's not everything reflects negatively upon the U.S. It's just that things right wingnuts LIKE are not good things, and those DO reflect negatively upon the U.S., so they want to hide them.

These are things such as torture, racism, sexism, etc. All those things Repukes love and believe should be part of the U.S.

[RKP5637]

14. Your post is an excellent analysis in a snapshot. Many Americans are passively scumming to

fascism each day, doing its bidding, while freedoms and civil rights are stripped away in the name of we're protecting you, but I don't think we, as a country, realize how perilous a journey we're on anymore.

[Justice wanted]

23. You are right about the Perilous journey. Reality TV has basically destroyed thinking... If it is

something longer than 20 seconds to engested they get bored. I mean I looked at shows like the Twlight zone which is a show that made people think. That had well crafted settle and thought provoking stories.


People don't want that anymore. They want Jerry Springer type fights or Housewives tanturms.


It is sad.


(just for honesty-- I do watch some reality TV--Ghost Hunters, Top Chef, Project Runway and maybe America's next top model I basically use as background noise)

[Scootaloo]

26. It's a human tendancy to accept Fascism

Now, few people actually want fascism, of course. But if it's foisted on htem anyway? They fold. They bow and accept it. After all, it makes the trains run on time, or at least that's what the papers say.

[SammyWinstonJack]

59. I agree. Most do not recognize this as fascism and wouldn't believe it anyway.

Couldn't happen here mentality and all that jazz.

[coalition_unwilling]

3. WTF? Is this in response to anything specific?

[quinnox]

4. I tend to agree

that as a group, Americans are so sheep-like and comfy, that most of them wouldn't even object to big brother measures being implemented on them.

[pinto]

5. Ah geez. Comfortable with Fascism?

A stretch of an assessment, in my opinion. And an understatement of what Fascism was, in fact and effect, in Europe.

[teddy51]

6. Most American's are not at all in tune with what is going on in this country! The MSM is virtually

non existant in this country, and most elders do not compute.

[Odin2005]

7. Defeatist horseshit.

[rhett o rick]

12. YOur argument isnt very compelling. nm

[randome]

19. Neither is 'Let's give up'.

[rhett o rick]

44. I am willing to fight for the Constitution. You apparently are willing to give up.

If people say this issue isnt clear, why wouldnt you want to see that the issue was cleared up? Why would you try so hard to stifle debate on this issue?

[Dewey Finn]

29. His argument is precisely as compelling as is required.

Plus he's 100% right. If you disagree with him, why don't you explain why? Otherwise, he wins and you lose the argument, hands down.

[Major Nikon]

30. He wins because you happen to agree?

Doesn't sound like a win to me, but rather more like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

The OP is right. People aren't comfortable with the word fascism, but they certainly are comfortable with most of its tenets. The reality is that the political right in this country is far closer to facism than the polical left ever has been to socialism, yet the message they have been able to project is exactly the opposite.

[Dewey Finn]

40. I don't entirely agree with him, no.

But he still won.

[rhett o rick]

47. He called the poster a "defeatist" and the post "bullshit". How does that win anything.

In fact I feel this breaks the rules of community standards.

[Major Nikon]

52. You might want to check the first rule of debate

Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean the other side is wrong.

[SomethingFishy]

45. Mind if I take this one?

He's 75% WRONG. And I'll tell you why. I have read the NDAA bill, in it's entirety. It took me days.

First we'll start with the definition of Fascism:
fas·cism   [fash-iz-uhm]
noun
1.
(sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

So how many of these are we already at? Well "forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism" is a given, seeing as OWS has been beaten, sprayed, arrested, and ostracized, for the crime of... not moving when the police tell them to.

A dictator having complete power. Well he's elected so dictator I guess doesn't fit, but having complete power? That is what NDAA 21012 does. Gives complete discretionary power to the President to detain anyone he claims is a terrorist without proof, without showing evidence without a trial, without a lawyer and without a jury.

Emphasizing agressive nationalism? Check. Racism? Well we are getting better about that. Regimenting all industry and commerce? Meh, not even close, matter of fact that is one tenant I would love to see more of.

So we are about 3/4's of the way there already. The more people deny it the easier it will be to hammer in the last nail.

I personally would trust Obama with the discretionary power in the NDAA bill. While I don't think he's going such a great job, I also don't think he's the type to abuse his power to that extent. But what the fuck are we going to do if he loses? What if fucking GinGrinch wins? You want Newt to have the power to call OWS terrorists and lock them up indefinitely?

We may not quite be living in a fascist state yet but anyone who looks close enough will see that the people writing the laws are leaving enough holes so it will be a simple and easy takeover.

[cyglet]

56. The corporations control

whoever is in power, so they are the dictator. The person in power is their puppet.

[rhett o rick]

46. I dont believe it is constructive to call someone a "defeatist" and say their post is

"bullshit". That type of response appears to be aimed at winning the argument by intimidation.

Why would you want to demean (defeatist) those that dont agree?

[rhett o rick]

13. I think Thom Hartmann speaks of a book that tells how fascism gradually overtook

Germany in the 1930's. I see parallels today. So what if the government can arrest and detain terrorists. It doesnt affect me. So what that protestors are labeled as terrorists. Doesnt affect me.

The police abuse of OWS is not needed to get them to leave the parks. The abuse is intended to terrorize anyone that dares consider protesting the Homeland.

[RKP5637]

17. Very good point, it's often seen as the other guy did this, or that, or asked for it, but does not

concern them ... like the disdain by some of OWS - poor as crap sometimes, for example, but they don't get they're part of the 99%.

Yep, shock and awe was used against OWS to keep the masses in line. I see parallels too, and have for some time. ... but try to explain this to some and you just get a deer in the headlight look.

[newspeak]

49. well, I think of the citizens united ruling also leads to fascism

"fascism is business and government AGAINST the will of the people."

Before WWII, this country was divided. the "isms" were being thrown around "fascism" vs "communism." Some of us think "fascism" is evil, there is no conscience; however, during the depression it was embraced by some here. While laborers were striking the "communism" word was bandied, mostly be the media and industrialists. Industrialists who supported mussolini and hitler-some supported their ideology, also. Remember the rally in NY-beating a jewish man on stage? My boss's father would go almost everyday in the park in LA and espouse the greatness of hitler and fascism. I remember a few years ago, they did a memorial for those americans who fought and died against franco, and it was some repug politicians (state in the south) who fought against displaying because it was those "communists."

We think of what fascism wrought in europe; however, the killing of millions of people is the product of a fascistic ideology; but does not negate the full meaning.

[RKP5637]

50. Definitely! I find the citizens united ruling bizarre, un-democratic and definitely a tool

against the will of the people.

[backscatter712]

20. Just ask Martin Niemöller... n/t

[oldhippydude]

27. every time i hear that term HOMELAND

it think FOTHERLAND..

[RKP5637]

33. Hadn't thought of that before, but you're absolutely correct!!! n/t

[rhett o rick]

42. Me also. nm

[Nay]

38. One such book is "Defying Hitler" by Sebastian Haffner. The parallels are there. nt

[rhett o rick]

43. Thanks for the info. nm

[XemaSab]

16. I even think we're too comfortable with the idea of ethnic cleaning

Look at Lowes and their reaction to the show about the Muslim family.

To push it further, there have been recent presidential candidates arguing for Christian theocracy, but someone openly advocating Sharia law may as well be a terrorist.

[Burgman]

18. I think half of them have been convinced they want it...

By the likes of Fox and RW radio.

[mick063]

21. I will not take facism laying down.

Something has to be done about FOX news.

It isn't the Republican Party anymore. It is the Fox News Party.

Politicians will come and go, but Fox will perpetuate.

Great effort must be taken to discredit Fox.

[Zorra]

24. occupy nt

[StarsInHerHair]

25. nothing is real until it affects them personally, that's really the problem

I think

[AntiFascist]

28. It ain't over til the fascist lady sings...

There may come a time when both the moderate to conservative right and the progressive left have had enough with government corruption by the 1%. When the Tea Party wakes up to the reality that they are being taken for a ride by the Koch brothers, then you may see the ranks of the 99% swell with bipartisan support. Right now the MSM is doing its job (for the 1%) of keeping people pitted against each other, usually along party lines, instead of focusing on the real problem.

[newfie11]

31. I bet the majority of Americans have no idea whats in this bill

In my area they are only concerned with what is happening in this town and general area and what the neighbors are doing.

Anything beyond that is tuned out.

[RKP5637]

34. Yep, probably that way in most of America. I know some people that think it's just too

hard and time consuming to understand what's going on and stick their heads in the sand, totally tuned out. Others listen to Fox News a bit and think they know all of the issues and the right decisions.

[MFrohike]

32. That word gets thrown around way too much

It's turning into a barrier to thought, much in the same way as "socialism," "liberal," and "freedom-loving" function. If you really want to make the point, shut up about Hitler and point out how the Patriot Act, which everybody just knows is for fighting terrorists, is used for far more mundane activities. Point out the fact that the Republican Party has finally been taken over by the John Birch Society (though this probably will just get a blank stare). Ask why the people who give material support to the primary homegrown terrorists of the last 40 years (anti-abortion wackos) aren't on a one-way trip to Florence, Colorado (hell, explain how that prison works and watch people's eyes bug out in horror). Ask people if they're aware that we imprison more people than China with a population 1/4 the size.

Concrete examples work best. Hitler's a dead horse these days. I think that if people see how the 4th amendment (and others) have been abused over the last 20 years, they will find that it does not play into their conception of fairness. Sure, some will cheer it on (and not every last decision is bad, just most of them and their general trend), but many will be horrified.

[RKP5637]

35. You make a very good point, "Hitler's a dead horse these days." As you discussed, we

have our own version these days that needs to be illuminated in current times ... and makes it even more concerning and real time. Good analysis/summary!!!

[AntiFascist]

64. Hitler defined Naziism, not fascism...

just because Hitler was defeated and killed does not mean that fascism died along with him, far from it.

Hitler's rise to power was sponsored in order to head off the spread of Marxism in post-depression Europe. Fascism was sold to the Germans as a third-way alternative to capitalism (which was losing favor) and communism, which was viewed as a threat to the industrialists and other businessmen.

When Hitler was defeated the US quickly turned its sights on the Soviet Union and utilized much of Hitler's intelligence and technology to advance efforts against communism. The "stay behind" programs and Project PAPERCLIP are symptomatic of this.

The merging of corporate power with the state is the same old economic system that it was before, but it lacks much of the extreme brutality of the Nazis. People don't blatantly call it fascism in order to avoid any associations with Hitler.

[MFrohike]

65. I get this

My point is that flogging Hitler just shuts off thought in the target audience. After all, it could never happen here, right? It's more effective to lose Hitler, and the word fascism, and simply point out the hits that civil liberties have taken over the last 20 years or so. Americans tend to have an idea of fairness and I doubt most people would call most of what's gone on fair.

[AntiFascist]

67. I think the key problem is...

people don't understand the basic economic system driving fascism. When corporate power merges with the state then the 1% get to play by their own rules and defending civil liberties no longer matters to the state. The wealthy can take risks and they no longer lose anything since their losses are now socialized. There is more going on than just the loss of civil liberties. The state no longer derives its power from the people, but from the corporations.

I agree that when fascism is too closely coupled with Hitler, then it loses its modern day relevance. I'm more of an optimist when it comes to breaking through to people with the truth. Once they have a deep understanding of what drove Nazi Germany into its madness, then they might understand the danger of the underlying economic system.

[MFrohike]

68. Not relevant in America

No humiliating loss in a war, bullshit conspiracy theory about it, and external actors imposing unrealistic demands of repayment. Genocidal madmen are sadly never unique, but the circumstances of the Nazi rise were unique, at least at this point in history.

I see comparisons with the Nazis to be self-defeating because they've been made too many times in the past. The New Left flogged the word fascist to death and wore out the Hitler comparisons on Lyndon Johnson (which was a supreme irony considering his successor). Not only that, but the comparisons aren't terribly valid because Hitler was not an agent of the Junkers or the industrialists. He was an independent actor with a political party (private army as well) who had his own ideas of cooperation with the wealthy of Germany. He made his deals with the industrialists and Junkers to rein in the SA and prevent the second Nazi revolution, then used the power they gave him to outflank them with the power of the state. It's just too different from today.

We have plenty of Americans who've spoken against the power of entrenched wealth and centralized power without feeling the need to cite every murderous regime of the last 100 years. Justice Brandeis firmly declared that we had a choice between economic concentration and democracy. Sam Rayburn helped break the stranglehold of the utility holding companies that allowed electric power to be spread all over the country. Harry Truman was heavily involved in the investigations of railroad companies' abuses toward their customers as well as overseeing government contracting in WW2 with the Truman Committee. These are just three examples. I realize I've digressed a bit away from civil liberties, but I was trying to address what I thought was your larger point.

[AntiFascist]

71. This is precisely why there needs to be a distinction between Nazism and Fascism...

In my mind Nazism is only a particular type of fascism, and there are many aspects of Hitler's regime that are not even remotely comparable to our present government.

Even the wikipedia entry for Nazism points out that "Nazism is a unique variety of fascism that incorporates biological racism and antisemitism":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

I do believe that Hitler was an "agent" of the industrialists when he first started out, where his political success would never have happened without their sponsorship. At the time, fascism was not a particularly dirty word and many in the US were flirting with the ideology as well. It wasn't until Hitler's crimes against humanity became so apparent that even the US ruling class decided it was time to go to war against him.

[MFrohike]

72. Ok

I can agree with the need to differentiate the two, which I think are really just subsets of totalitarianism, but I don't think it's terribly viable in political advocacy. I hope that makes sense.

The danger of Hitler was never recognized by a "ruling class." It was recognized by FDR and some others who weren't willing to sell their mothers for a buck. The wealthy of this country never really regarded Hitler as a threat, so long as they could do business with him. I think it was the recognition that his path would lead to a era that rivaled the dark ages as a step back.

[AntiFascist]

73. The relevant elements of fascism are fairly easy to identify, even though not as extreme...

A 'corporate' ruling class that is oppressive to everyone else. (Mussolini's definition of corporation may have not been quite the same, but it remains an exclusive class of people - 1% vs. 99%).

A strong sense of Nationalism in order to keep the populace in allegiance.

When groups of people fall out of line in rebellion, then they are brutalized to some extent. (recent brutality against Occupy protestors setting an example).

Propaganda defining the 'Others' as the enemy (in this case Judeo-Christian vs. Extremist Muslim)

An act of terror that changed everything and ushered in a new order. (9-11 as the Reichstag Fire).

Broadening threats of war and aggression.

Loss of constitutionally protected rights.

Increasing opposition to unions, "social democrats", and any hint of Marxism.

The balance of power between the branches of government moving further towards the totalitarian.

[jimlup]

36. I share your frustration and agree

People would rather talk about the latest sex scandal than worry about their democracy and liberty.

I believe that Americans are a bought people and they are heavily indoctrinated. Earlier in the fall I began to allow myself to have a small bit of hope because of OWS. Then I started to really think about it and realized that OWS is only about 1% of what needs to happen and it probably won't even succeed.

I wish I felt otherwise but I realized when watching an ad for GM's "ONSTAR" and knew instantly that Americans would never accept the principles of OWS nor reject their corporate overlords.

Welcome to the new serfdom and the beginning of an awkward technological "dark ages"; the dawn of the Anthropocene.

[sarcasmo]

37. The reality TV crowd is easily brain washed.

[jwirr]

39. Ignorance is the problem. I doubt that most people even know what fascism is. Plus if they do not

see it in their own community then it does not exist. Faith in America is the biggest religion around.

[choie]

41. Agree

This is illustrated by people who support a President who willingly puts forth legislation codifying indefinite detention - just because he's a Democrat.

[Autumn]

51. They don't recognize it as Fascism.

Their freedoms are being protected and gosh darn it's patriotic. These people are out to kill us all. Mushroom cloud and all that fucking rot.

[hootinholler]

57. OVER!??!?!??

Was it OVER when the Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor?!

This is friendly fascism, not hte authoritarian kind of old. Most will not recognize it until it turns into the authoritarian kind.

I think that is happening and more are waking up to it.

[BOG PERSON]

61. human nature is fascist; fascism is the human condition

but listen. maybe, if we all get involved with the fascist movement early enough, we can steer it in wise directions. going door to door canvassing, voter registration, forming armed paramilitary groups, phonebanking, etc. small victories add up, until one day we find ourselves in the big leagues.

the point is, we have to work within the system, in order to change it from the inside.

[Nye Bevan]

66. YES. Several of my neighbors have been awakened by knocks on their doors at night

and been dragged off into concentration camps. Friends of mine have been shot in the street, without trial, by brownshirted paramilitaries. And I know people who have been complaining about this on internet discussion boards who have been dragged away while they were in the proc

[saras]

70. It's nice that they ended up in camps. The DEA just shot my neighbors. And their dog.

[AverageJoe90]

74. Not quite.

Things have been getting bad, and probably going to get worse........but people ARE waking up.