Obama Proves Snowden’s Point

[WillyT]

Obama Proves Snowden’s Point
By: Jon Walker - FDL
Friday August 9, 2013 12:59 pm

Edward Snowden leaked information about the reach and depth of NSA spying programs because he believed the American people and the world would oppose these intrusions if they know about them. These are not the policies that would emerge if they came from an open, informed and fair debate. They can only emerge from a secret process.

In his press conference today President Obama indirectly admitted that Snowden’s point was correct.

Now that the American people are learning about these NSA programs, Obama is finally forced to call for more disclosure and reforms. While the reforms Obama are putting forward are vague and rather weak, they are a significant rhetorical admission. Obama has stopped trying to pretend that the NSA can operate as it has been. The popular and legislative pressure for change has become too strong.

The status quo that existed before Snowden can’t be completely sustained now that the American people learned what is really going on. That is a pretty clear proof these policies should never have been allowed to be secretly created or continued in the first place in our “democracy.”

If Snowden wasn’t whistleblowing on wrongdoing then why would there be a need to call for reforms based on what he has revealed?

Link: http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2013/08/09/obama-proves-snowdens-point/

[phleshdef]

1. Obama was calling for more disclosure and reforms before Snowden commited his crimes.

Of course considering this is coming from FireDogLake, I don't expect honesty and acknowledgement of recent history that goes against the agenda they like to promote over there.

[WillyT]

3. January 2009 To May 2013 Link Please ???

Thanks in advance.

[phleshdef]

9. Sure no problem.

From today's presser:

As I said at the National Defense University back in May, in meeting those threats, we have to strike the right balance between protecting our security and preserving our freedoms. And as part of this rebalancing I called for a review of our surveillance programs. Unfortunately, rather than an orderly and lawful process to debate these issues and come up with appropriate reforms, repeated leaks of classified information have initiated the debate in a very passionate but not always fully informed way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/transcript-president-obamas-august-9-2013-news-conference-at-the-white-house/2013/08/09/5a6c21e8-011c-11e3-9a3e-916de805f65d_story.html

Excerpts from the speech he is referring to:

Thwarting homegrown plots presents particular challenges in part because of our proud commitment to civil liberties for all who call America home. That’s why, in the years to come, we will have to keep working hard to strike the appropriate balance between our need for security and preserving those freedoms that make us who we are. That means reviewing the authorities of law enforcement, so we can intercept new types of communication, but also build in privacy protections to prevent abuse.

That means putting careful constraints on the tools the government uses to protect sensitive information, such as the state secrets doctrine. And that means finally having a strong Privacy and Civil Liberties Board to review those issues where our counterterrorism efforts and our values may come into tension.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/05/23/remarks-president-national-defense-university

[zeemike]

25. "so we can intercept new types of communication"

Well he delivered on that one.
followed by the boilerplate language of.
"but also build in privacy protections to prevent abuse"

So we know he did the former...what did he do for the later?

[phleshdef]

29. That was only 2 months ago. It takes time to put together and roll out policy changes.

I know the attention span of the people in this country is pretty poor these days and I know the cancer of instant gratification expectations spreads pretty wide, but Christ, we can do better than that can't we?

[zeemike]

34. Two months ago?

Was that before Snowden?...and you think Obama just learned about this 2 months ago?
Well maybe he did...and if that is true then he is not a president but an actor playing the part.

[phleshdef]

35. Um. No. You misunderstand what I'm talking about.

It was 2 months ago that he proposed certain reforms with surveillance, the drone programs and changes to the AUMF. I'm certain that he has known about everything the whole time. And yes, that was before Snowden by a few weeks or something.

[niyad]

37. snowden's information was in the guardian in may--by my reckoning,some three months ago.

[zeemike]

39. Thank you for that information

I just did not remember when this all started.

[George II]

71. FALSE! If you're looking to bash Obama and Democrats, at least get your facts correct....

....the interview took place on JUNE 6, and was released shortly thereafter.

[niyad]

81. all I am doing is pointing out when the article was published. please cite where I am trashing

anybody. do not accuse me of saying things I have not, but nice try.

[Skittles]

148. but that's just it, niyad

that's all they care about - the perceived hit to Obama - they just don't get it

[niyad]

157. you are correct. the responses in this thread have been truly depressing.

[rhett o rick]

110. I am looking to get reforms. This bullshit has been going on since Obama took office.

"I was going to fix it", just doesnt cut it. He was going to repeal the Patriot Act. Trying to hold Obama to his word isnt "bashing".

[truth2power]

139. I couldn't have said it better...

He's always "going to" or "calling for" blah blah.

Some individuals are just trying to run out the clock, so they can say, "Well, he's no longer in office, so we need to look forward instead of back."

I remember back in 2008, the meme was "He's only been in office for...". You don't hear that anymore , because, five years on it would be ludicrous.

Now it's, "hold his feet to the fire". Whenever I hear that, I think about what would happen if I were hired for a job and the boss came around and instructed me to write a report and I said, "Make me". You know where my ass would be in short order.

[George II]

162. Sorry, but Obama, or ANY President, doesn't have the power to repeal the Patriot Act or.........

........any other legislation. Congress repeals legislation by passing overriding legislation. I don't recall Obama ever saying he was going to repeal the Patriot Act.

Haven't you seen what has been going on in the House or Senate since Obama became President?

[rhett o rick]

163. I am not sure exactly what Obama said as a candidate but he didnt support the Patriot Act.

If you are truly interested in the truth, look it up.

Here is a an article: "Then-Senatorial candidate Obama in 2003 branded the Patriot Act "shoddy and dangerous" and pledged to dump it. He made the pledge in response to a candidate's survey by the National Organization for Women."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/earl-ofari-hutchinson/did-obama-break-his-campa_b_288112.html

I dont buy this BS that Obama is totally helpless and powerless. Since he has been in office he hasnt indicated to anyone that he wanted the Patriot Act reformed or repealed. In fact he signed extensions I believe twice. He appointed Gen Clapper, Gen Alexander, Mueller and Comey all to the delight of the REpublicans.

[JDPriestly]

38. They should end the FISA Court and require the NSA to go to ordinary

judges in the civil, Article III courts to request orders or subpoenas. The subpoenas should be kept confidential for a maximum of two years during which investigations should be conducted and closed and the targets of the investigations should either be indicted and tried or renounced publicly if they are overseas (so that innocent people don't get caught in their nets of deception or whatever), and innocent people should be informed that they were investigated and no charges are being brought.

Let's get rid of secret courts and secret subpoenas altogether. They serve no purpose other than to give too much power to a select few. They encourage prosecutors and the FBI to work on whims and to persecute based on their personal predilections, personal and political. The Siegelman case has nothing to do with eavesdropping but is as is the senator from Alaska just one case in which we have seen prosecutorial overrreach and persecution based on politics and personal vendettas. I'm sure there are lots more examples. Those two are among the best known.

Let's get some light and air into the darkness and stink at the NSA.

[rhett o rick]

111. Good ideas. Never happen. THe Powers to be are not going to give up their powers. nm

[frylock]

66. that was on may 23, three days AFTER snowden's disclosures

[chervilant]

133. Interesting,

and gifted use of language to proffer a vague, but noble sounding tenet:

"...the appropriate balance between our need for security and preserving those freedoms that make us who we are."

It is precisely because we're learning the actual extent of our nation's surveillance on its citizenry that warrants Mr. Snowden's whistleblowing. I find it grimly astonishing that Snowden's intent, his alleged character defects, his consequences, and his patriotism are fuel for the sanctimonious assertions re: his cowardice that proliferate on a Democratic website.

[dkf]

11. Words...where are the actions and the press releases showing movement?

[phleshdef]

27. Probably the same place you left your adult sense of patience...

[dkf]

54. Lol. How hard is it to stop doing something?

[frylock]

64. fuck that shit

[Maedhros]

89. You know, I haven't even engaged in any thrust-and-parry with you

but your behavior on this thread is enough to send you to the ignore list.

[phleshdef]

90. Good.

[Civilization2]

96. asshat and proud? amazing

Adult patience? Five years of escalations is not restraint or dialing back,.

[phleshdef]

98. It was in the context of enacting policies suggested 2 months ago, not 5 years ago.

[tblue]

97. What's your problem?

Why so nasty?

[sulphurdunn]

58. Ad hominem fallacy

[phleshdef]

84. Do you even know what ad hominem means?

[reusrename]

87. firedoglake blah blah don't expect honesty blah blah...ad hominem.

QED.

[truebluegreen]

88. Well done.

[phleshdef]

99. Ok, so I guess you would defend Fox News when similar attacks are made against that network?

I'm just asking for argument sake. Lets see how principled you are here.

[reusrename]

102. If I was defending anyone, it was sulphurdunn.

Mainly I was trying to clarify their post about a particular logical fallacy.

[sulphurdunn]

126. It isn't a defense of FOX NEWS

to point out that the truth or falsehood of an argument bears no logical relationship to the one making it

[rhett o rick]

113. Attacking ones opponent's character, like you did with FDL.

"Of course considering this is coming from FireDogLake, I don't expect honesty and acknowledgement of recent history that goes against the agenda they like to promote over there."

[sulphurdunn]

125. Yes, a good example is your question.

[Skittles]

149. it's one of their pet themes

[DeSwiss]

100. I tend to puke when I hear PURE BULLSHIT.

[AppleBottom]

106. Oddly enough calling for more disclosure while overseeing secret American policies sure does seem...

uuuuhhhmmm like BS?

[Katashi_itto]

120. Yep, it's total BS.

[rhett o rick]

108. Yes and he once said he wanted the Patriot Act repealed. What's your point? nm

[uponit7771]

156. +1

[Th1onein]

2. PRECISELY.

If Snowden wasn’t whistleblowing on wrongdoing then why would there be a need to call for reforms based on what he has revealed?

[phleshdef]

10. The President answered that question today.

Well, the fact that I said that the programs are operating in a way that prevents abuse, that continues to be true without the reforms.

The question is how do we make the American people more comfortable? If I tell Michelle that I did the dishes -- now, granted, in the White House, I don't do the dishes that much, but back in the day -- (laughter) -- and -- and she's a little skeptical, well, I'd like her to trust me, but maybe I need to bring her back and show her the dishes and not just have her take my word for it.

And so, you know, the program is -- I am comfortable that the program currently is not being abused. I'm comfortable that if the American people examined exactly what was taking place, how it was being used, what the safeguards were, that they would say, you know what, these folks are following the law and doing what they say they're doing. But it is absolutely true that with the expansion of technology, this is an area that's moving very quickly -- with the revelations that have depleted public trust, that if there are some additional things that we can do to build that trust back up, then we should do them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/transcript-president-obamas-august-9-2013-news-conference-at-the-white-house/2013/08/09/5a6c21e8-011c-11e3-9a3e-916de805f65d_story_4.html

[dkf]

12. And is he king such that he is allowed to make this decision for us all?

He said himself that if he were on the other side he would be asking questions.

Well that's where the vast majority of people are and this Government is ours collectively, not his alone.

[phleshdef]

13. What the hell are you on about?

Nothing in that quote justifies throwing out accusations of the President assuming himself a monarch. Some of ya'll just say stuff to be saying it, making sense is optional.

[dkf]

15. It doesn't matter if he is comfortable with the program and the secrecy.

He can't make that decision for us all when its about MASS DATA COLLECTION.

[phleshdef]

17. Did you misread what he said on purpose or by accident?

If you listen to the entire speech/presser, several times he makes the point that he feels the need to take action to make the American people comfortable with what they are doing. He never said that he would be making the decision for the American people as to whether or not they are comfortable.

[dkf]

18. Oh I get it exactly.

He lost the confidence of the public when he expected us to trust his judgement so now he thinks he can regain that trust with words.

But he still hasn't come clean. He should know by now that won't work. What man hasn't learned this lesson yet?

[phleshdef]

22. Hasn't come clean about what???

[arely staircase]

31. you know what is funny?

people who never liked the guy saying he has lost their (and everyone else's) confidence.

[dkf]

72. You are laughing at yourself perhaps?

I don't find it's laughing matter that the guy I sent money to and dropped literature for is trying to take me for a fool.

[arely staircase]

75. I am sure you worked your ass off for him. nt

[LondonReign2]

127. YOU NEVER LOVED HIM ANYWAY!

Really? I think you can do much better than that.

[George II]

165. Thanks. I have to say I haven't lost confidence in him. I'm PROUD of the job he's doing as President

[randome]

33. Um. He's the guy we elected to make decisions for us.

He says there is no mass spying going on and S&G never showed that there was.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[RetroLounge]

92. blind trust is frightening

RL

[randome]

104. Agreed. But I was speaking to the point that Obama has no right to make decisions for us.

Obviously he does have that right and that responsibility. If we disagree with him, we call him on it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[George II]

76. I guess you need to read up on the powers of the President, huh?

[millennialmax]

19. Yes, he did. And he reiterated that there have been no instances of wrongdoing/abuse.

And the new reforms will make it more difficult for them to take place.

I've been desperately trying to get an idea of why people are so angry about this, but I can't come up with anything.

[truebluegreen]

47. You are desperate? trying to get any kind of an idea?

And you just know that there have been no instances of wrongdoing or abuse.

Enjoy your stay.

[HangOnKids]

57. BAZINGA!

That was so de-lish, thank you!

[CakeGrrl]

62. Conversely, you have no evidence that there HAS been.

Please post the proof.

[chervilant]

140. Well, my goodness!

I thought of the members of this forum who relentlessly attack Mr. Snowden personally (and denigrate those of us herein who are neutral about Snowden) when I posted this:

"It is precisely because we're learning the actual extent of our nation's surveillance on its citizenry that warrants Mr. Snowden's whistleblowing. I find it grimly astonishing that Snowden's intent, his alleged character defects, his consequences, and his patriotism are fuel for the sanctimonious assertions re: his cowardice that proliferate on a Democratic website."

And, in answer to your question, perhaps the current posts about Russell Tice will help you expand your knowledge of this issue, and help you step off the Bash Snowden Bandwagon.

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. The FISC ruled in October 2011 that aspects of NSA data collection were unconstitutional

but this ruling is classified, and the government it fighting to keep it that way.

The targeting and minimization documents released yesterday are dated a few months after the first publicly known scandal over the new FAA procedures: In April 2009, the New York Times reported that Section 702 surveillance had “intercepted the private e-mail messages and phone calls of Americans . . . on a scale that went beyond the broad legal limits established by Congress." In June 2009, the Times reported that members of Congress were saying NSA's "recent intercepts of the private telephone calls and e-mail messages of Americans are broader than previously acknowledged." Rep. Rush Holt described the problems as "so flagrant that they can't be accidental."

Presumably, following these "flagrant" abuses (and likely in response to the Congressional criticism of the original procedures), the government refined the procedures. The documents released yesterday are the "improved" targeting and minimization procedures, which appear to have been reused the following year, in 2010, in the FISC's annual certification.

But these amended procedures still didn't stop illegal spying under Section 702.

Unless the government substantially changed the procedures between August 2010 and October 2011, these are the mimization rules that the FISC eventually found to result in illegal and unconstitutional surveillance. In October 2011, the FISC issued an 86-page opinion finding that collection carried out under the NSA's minimization procedures was unconstitutional. The opinion remains secret, but it is likely that yesterday's leaked NSA documents show the very procedures the Director of National Intelligence admitted had been found to result in surveillance that was “unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment" and "circumvented the spirit of the law."

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/recently-revealed-nsa-procedures-likely-ones-found-unconstitutional-fisa-court

[George II]

77. "I've been desperately trying to get an idea of why people are so angry about this"

They're angry because they have nothing else to bitch about, and Obama isn't 110% perfect in their eyes.

[Pholus]

121. Please do not confuse our main worry with yours. nt

[bvar22]

143. You're joking, right.

Did you READ what you just quoted?

Do you understand it?

It is one of the oldest Non-Denials I know.
Let me rephrase it for you:

[font size=3]Honest. NOTHING HAPPENED,
and we're changing the rules to make sure it NEVER happens again!!!
[/font]

[JDPriestly]

40. It's a bit late to try to convince the American people that Daddy Knows Best and all

is cool in the NSA. If it really were all that cool, there wouldn't have been so much panic -- stopping the Bolivian presidential plane -- what the???

Obama is trying to cover up. That's all.

He is afraid of the NSA which tells me that we all should be.

[phleshdef]

45. Snowden has thousands of documents that go beyond any domestic related concerns...

...and he took those documents with him to some of the very countries we don't want seeing them. Theres plenty of justifiable reasons to pursue a criminal such as Snowden aggressively.

When someone steals thousands of classified documents and runs off to China or Russia or wherever with them, OF COURSE they are gonna go after them, no matter what the subject matter is.

[WillyT]

53. Excuse Me... But How Do You Know That ???

Link please.

[HangOnKids]

60. He took those documents to wherever

Get with the program WillyT!

[LondonReign2]

128. We've always been at war with East Wherever

(sadly, when I think about it, this statement is painfully true).

[HangOnKids]

134. It is painfully sad

Wherever just always gets beat to shit. Wherever has good resources though.

[Th1onein]

107. Well, how NICE of him! It's bullshit.

I don't want to get permission to know that someone is not spying on me. This man has gone on national TV, with Charlie Rose, and LIED. Then he goes on with Leno and LIES again.

Really? Do I believe anything he says anymore? Fuck no.

He told us he would get rid of this shit and instead he moved it forward. We've had reports of foreign intelligence spying on Americans, and American intelligence spying on foreigners, and then they trade off intelligence. And, we find out that they are STORING everything, which is about the worst thing that can be done. And, now, he placates us with this? I think NOT.

[rhett o rick]

114. "I am comfortable that the program currently is not being abused." That is pure rhetoric.

He is comfortable. Well good. Does that mean the NSA isnt violating the fourth Amendment? He didnt address that. He just said "I am comfortable". George Bush was also "comfortable" what the hell good does that do us.

Well Mr. President, I am not comfortable that Booz-Allen and the Carlyle Group are not violating the Fourth Amendment.

[99th_Monkey]

4. K & R ~ nt

[ProSense]

5. Obama: ‘I Don’t Think Mr. Snowden Was A Patriot’

Obama: ‘I Don’t Think Mr. Snowden Was A Patriot’
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023435563

That is something he definitely said.

[msongs]

7. meanwhile as the bodies of women and kids killed by US drones pile up...look over there snowden nt

[CakeGrrl]

63. Tell it to the Press Corps - THEY asked the questions.

[RetroLounge]

93. puke

RL

[Union Scribe]

130. Obama looks worse the more you post that. nt

[Life Long Dem]

6. Edward Snowden leaked information because Greenwald told him to

Edward Snowden leaked information about the reach and depth of NSA spying programs because he believed the American people and the world would oppose these intrusions if they know about them.

He went to Greenwald. And what do you think Greenwald told him?

[JDPriestly]

48. Are you claiming to have secret information about the conversations between Snowden and

Greenwald or did you just kind of think that was a good theory? Maybe you should differentiate. If it's your theory, fine, but identify it as such. If you are reporting facts, please explain either how you overheard that conversation or give us a link to the article or report from the person who did overhear the conversation.

I am the first one to concoct theories about things I think might have happened. But we have to be carefully when we present such a theory not to present it as a known fact. It isn't. The difference is very important.

Actually, my theory based on what I have heard and read is that a film-maker was involved in Snowden's deciding to make his revelations. Whether she met Snowden before or after Snowden met Greenwald I do not know.

But I suspect that Snowden decided quite some time ago that he he could not countenance what he saw at the NSA contractors and the CIA where he previously worked. That's my theory. I do not think that people talk people like Snowden or Manning or other whistleblowers into coming clean publicly. I think that these are people with human consciousness and consciences who value fairness and democracy more than the high paychecks. That's my theory. I don't have a link. That's based on my moral values and view of the world. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I grew up in a family in which my parents acted based on their moral values and not based on what was convenient or popular at the moment. They were far from political activists but they cared about people and took care of people around them.

My parents took very seriously Jesus teachings about visiting the sick, those in prison, taking care of others. To this day, my very elderly mother feels she must cook something or do something for her younger neighbors when they become sick or go through a rough time. Perhaps Snowden was raised by caring people.

Just my theory, but I think Snowden may have, unintentionally, been disturbed by the cynical values of those he worked with -- the lack of care, the ridicule of the weak and helpless. I would have been. I have worked in situations like that. You put up with the cynicism of your co-workers, but it makes you feel sick if you were raised to think more in terms of right and wrong and not expediency.

I think Snowden is an idealistic person. The government will paint him otherwise, but I do not think he expected to gain anything personally by making his revelations. He strikes me as honest but not a flamboyant, attention-seeking type of personality. If you look at the way he looks into the camera, there is no flirtatious or inviting smile. He isn't asking you to be his friend or even his ally. He is frightened, but telling the truth in a matter-of-fact way. That is not generally the way that con artists or even ordinary criminals approach people. I've known a few. That's not the way they act. He is unashamed, fearful and kind of shy. He just does not fit the mold of the criminal or the show-off. And I doubt that Greenwald has enough charm to talk anyone into much of any kind of self-effacing, self-sacrificing action. Greenwald just isn't that charming either. He's smart, but he is not that charming. What would Greenwald have to promise to a guy like Snowden? Absolutely nothing good. So that's why I disagree with your theory although you are entitled to have it. And that is what I base my theory upon, and you are entitled to disagree with it.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

49. Link?

(www.landofimagination.com doesn't count)

[notadmblnd]

8. Obama told us beore we elected him that the people would have to hold his feet to the fire

in order to get the change the people want. Edward Snowden did that and that's good on him. But I believe that Obama told us that the people would have to force change for a reason.

[questionseverything]

146. yes

current admin needs we the people to throw a fit to give him cover to negotiate with the MIC

[LittleBlue]

14. Exactly. Snowden has done a service to this country

by revealing this wrongdoing.

What we do about it is now up to us, but at least we have the chance to do something. We wouldn't have any choice if we didn't know about it.

[kelliekat44]

124. And, he is still no patriot and a coward. nt

[99Forever]

16. Watch the foot dragging he'll do...

... when it comes time to actually do something. Sounds like more Obama Weasel Words to me, but as you say, he IS admitting Snowden was a whistleblower and was absolutely correct.

[bvar22]

23. Now, now.

I'm sure that a "commission" or a "panel" will be formed to study the problem,
and THAT will be enough to make the "Greatest Accomplishments List"!!!

[Maedhros]

28. And, of course, the panel will meet in secret

and its findings will be classified. But trust us, it will fix everything!

[bvar22]

42. ....and "The Commission" will be composed of Hard Core Republicans...

... NSA agents, and lobbyists for the funding of the "Secret" Government.

[Maedhros]

43. ...and the next President will abuse the program more than the current one.[n/t]

[bvar22]

44. The NEXT President has a good chance of being a Republican,

....and the Security/Surveillance Police State will be All Tee'd Up and Ready to GO.

THEN, all the people cheering for it today
will have midnight conversions,
and will suddenly OPPOSE these "Republican" Draconian Measures
to the wails of:
"Who could have EVER foreseen THIS?"

[JDPriestly]

52. Precisely. McCain and Lindsay Graham are waiting in the wings.

[bvar22]

55. I'm thinking Jeb Bush/Graham.

Jeb has been staying out of the spotlight and keeping his nose clean.

...but they might have an unknown Reagan-esque governor of some Western state waiting in the wings.

I believe it is the Republican's turn to occupy the White House
as per the secret "Power Sharing Agreement" signed in 1992,
where each "party" gets to sit in the White House for 8 years
and pretend to run the country,
while the Security/Police/Military/Corporate State becomes entrenched as the New Normal to keep the peasants under control
as the 1% steals the last bit of wealth from the Working Class.

Welcome to Gilded Age 2.0, Stronger, and Longer Lasting!

[rhett o rick]

115. I am thinking Gov Christie unless he switches parties. nm

[JDPriestly]

116. What you are suggesting is becoming more plausible with each day.

I never thought I would live to see the US governed as it is now being governed. It's really sad. What a mess.

[Maedhros]

86. Have you ever read Dune by Frank Herbert?

When House Harkonnen was granted control of Arrakis, the Baron sent his nephew Glossu "Beast" Rabban to rule over the planet with the directive to squeeze out every last bit of profit using the most brutal methods possible. Then, when the population had been sufficiently broken, he would send in his other nephew, the beautiful Feyd Rautha, who the people would welcome as a liberator. But the Baron would still be in charge.

George W. Bush is Beast Rabban. Obama is Feyd Rautha. And the Baron is still in charge.

[Ecumenist]

101. WTF?!! I've read it a number of times and find it interesting that you are TWISTING

it to demonise Obama...SMDH the Baron is so much in charge that they're BLOCKING HIM AT EVERY TURN.....DAMN Delusional.

[Maedhros]

112. We change figureheads at the helm

but the ship of state continues on its course. Foreign policy under Obama is indistinguishable from that under Bush.

[Ecumenist]

117. OH BULLSHIT!! Look, Obama may not be perfect but he's LIGHT YEARS better than that idiot

Bushie MacGiggling the Murderer. I may be guilty of many things but being stupid definitely isn't one of them.

[bvar22]

145. In some areas, Foreign Policy under Obama is much WORSE than under Bush.

We are now regularly bombing countries with secret drones.
These "secret" bombings are run out of the White House with cooperation of the CIA.
Bush-the-Lesser never went THAT far.

Forcing down the the jet carrying a Foreign head of State so it could be searched for a WhistleBlower....
Bush never did something like that.


Most disappointing is the escalation of tensions between the new Democracies in Latin America and the USA.
One of the unintended consequences of the Bush Administration's obsession with Iraq was that they Took their Eye Off the Ball in Latin America long enough for Democracy to Break Out All Over!!!

Instead of supporting these transparent Democracies,
the Obama Administration has Doubled Down demonizing them,
and throwing money and arms at the last remaining Right Wing Police States like Colombia.
Foreign Relation with Latin America are WORSE now with the Obama Escalations than they were with Bush.
Bush overlooked Latin America.
Obama is actively ANTAGONIZING them.

[Maedhros]

150. Don't forget the Stuxnet attack on Iran.

Obama green-lighted the first overt act of cyber warfare on a sovereign state.

[chervilant]

138. Speaking of reading...

You might be interested in "Beyond Power" by Marilyn French. In this comprehensive analysis, she richly illustrates how the players may change, but the game remains the same.

[bvar22]

144. Never read Dune,

and have never been able to sit through the whole Movie either,

BUT, I have read Machiavelli,
and he strongly suggested your above prescription for subduing conquered Towns and Countries:

Step 1) Send in a BRUTAL Dictator who Tortures and Abuses the population without restraint.

Step 2) Send in a guy on a white horse to replace the 1st guy who is marginally better, and the people will welcome him as a savior,
because he is BETTER than the other guy.


Want to make Americans HAPPY about $3/gallon gasoline?

Set the price at $4/gallon, let the people cry and wail for a few months,
then drop it back to $3/gallon and watch them celebrate.




This was inevitable when Party Politics stopped being about ISSUES and POLICIES,
and started being about Just Being a little Better Than the Worst of Two Choices,
or "The Lesser of Two Evils".

I'm OLD enough to remember a time when I enthusiastically voted FOR
someone instead of having to use my vote to BLOCK somebody worse.

[Maedhros]

151. The novel is far and away better that the film.

And I suspect Herbert has read Machiavelli extensively.

[frylock]

109. that will come after they scapegoat progressives for "not voting"

[deutsey]

132. You know, we Democrats must always be bi-partisan, after all

Reaching across the aisle is what we're all about.

[zeemike]

32. I don't think Simpson and Bowles are doing anything right now.

But if they are how about Lindsey Graham and Paul Ryan?
And I am sure that by the 2016 election they will have some recomendation for us.

[JDPriestly]

50. Love it. The "Greatest Accomplishments list."

Ohhhhh! Uggghhhh!

[RetroLounge]

94. as long as we can "blue link" to it in 500 threads we can call it an accomplishment

RL

[xchrom]

20. Du rec. Nt

[Octafish]

21. A commission of experts sounds fancy.

Unfortunately Henry the K couldn't give up his client list to lead the last one, but it was spectacular.

[HangOnKids]

61. A MoPaul classic

Thanks for that!

[Turbineguy]

24. Well at least there are a bunch of new people calling Obama a liar no matter what.

So that part of the leak was a success!

[truebluegreen]

51. No matter what?

Is he a liar?

[arely staircase]

26. even before snowden? nt

[randome]

30. Which point of Snowden's is relevant here?

The 'fact' that he could spy on anyone if he chose?

The 'fact' that 'direct access' meant the NSA was 'hoovering up the Internet'?

The 'fact' that the NSA is 'watching our thoughts form as we type?

Obama started this process in May, before the world heard of Snowden.

Makes me wonder if Snowden didn't somehow know this was coming and that 'inspired' him to run after stealing everything he could get his hands on. Which, as it turns out, wasn't much.

He is where he wants to be now -a recluse far away from the people he never felt he measured up to.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[JDPriestly]

36. K&R.

[GiaGiovanni]

41. Another good one, Willy T!

[WillyT]

46. Thanks !!!

[Divernan]

56. "Imprecision" is Obama-speak for lie.

In his remarks, Obama said the White House was having to respond to a "changed environment" where disclosures being released "drip by drip, you know, one a week, to kind of maximise attention, and see if they can catch us on some imprecision on something".

Democratic senator Ron Wyden, a leading critic of the NSA's bulk surveillance powers in the Senate, welcomed Obama's proposals, but called for greater detail. "Notably absent from President Obama's speech was any mention of closing the backdoor searches loophole that potentially allows for the warrantless searches of Americans' phone calls and emails under section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act," Wyden said.

The senator was referring to a disclosure in the Guardian based on a top-secret document which indicates the NSA has a secret backdoor into its databases under a legal authority enabling it to search for US citizens' email and phone calls without a warrant.

The document, published on Friday three hours before Obama's announcement, contrasts with assurances that president and senior intelligence officials have previously given that the privacy of US citizens is protected from dragnet surveillance programs targeted at foreigners. "I believe that this provision requires significant reforms as well and I will continue to fight to close that loophole," Wyden said

.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/09/obama-nsa-surveillance-reforms-press-conference#start-of-comments

[forestpath]

59. K&R

[PowerToThePeople]

65. Do not look at that man behind the curtain.

[unblock]

68. as obama said, "we were going to do these reforms all along! yeah, that's the ticket!"

or something like that.

no, seriously, he said that, in effect. he said these reforms were in the works and snowden's revelations may have made them happen sooner, and in a more public and dramatic fashion, but they were in the works all along.


i loves me some obama, but i'm not behind what's going in in over-secrecy land.

[rhett o rick]

142. It's called "damage control". First, "We dont spy on Americans. We arent doing anything bad."

"That's just data collection and messily meta-data at that. We dont read it. That's not bad."

"Ok, so we read some but only that which pertains to foreign suspects. Nothing bad."

"Well, foreign suspects and those they communicate with. Still not bad."

"And those they communicate with and so on. (I think we are up to 10 to the 8th power but my math isnt the best). Still not anything bad."

"Ok, ok, we still dont admit badness, but we were going to reform the system just because. Sorry, but the proof is secret."

"When I said we werent spying on Americans, I meant me personally and Bo. I dont know what Generals Clapper, Alexander, and (name redacted), are up to"

Vote for HC in 2016, she promises to repeal the Patriot Act (cut to video of Lucy (HC) holding a football labeled "Patriot Act&quot .

[Maedhros]

152. It's like Homer Simpson hiding his gun from Marge in "The Cartridge Family" episode.

Marge: You lied to me Homer. You told me you got rid of the gun.

Homer: But Marge, I swear, I never thought you'd find out.

[George II]

69. No! Obama didn't "prove Snowden's point" - Snowden didn't HAVE a point except.........

........to validate his ego. Did you see Obama's entire press conference today? He said something to the effect that if he really had a patriotic "point", he'd be here in the US facing his fate. You can get the full transcript here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/transcript-president-obamas-august-9-2013-news-conference-at-the-white-house/2013/08/09/5a6c21e8-011c-11e3-9a3e-916de805f65d_story.html

Snowden is a gutless coward, THAT is the "point" that Obama proved today!

[WillyT]

70. LOL !!! - Yeah... A Gutless Coward That Somehow Caused The POTUS To Explain Himself In Front..

Of The Entire Nation!

You're gonna have to do better than that.

[George II]

73. If he wasn't a gutless coward he wouldn't be pleading with dozens of countries....

...to accept him. If he was the "martyr" that he thinks he is, he'd be in the US instead of hiding out overseas.

[wtmusic]

141. Ah, his message is worthless without self-sacrifice.

A truly Stone Age POV.

[George II]

160. "Ah, his message is worthless without self-sacrifice."

In a word - YES. Look at how Obama articulated it yesterday in his press conference.

Snowden has proven NOTHING and he has accomplished little, if anything, because he cowardly turned tail and ran off to Hong Kong, Russia, or wherever he winds up eventually.

[wtmusic]

161. Obama didn't articulate shit in his presser.

No.

Snowden has turned the world's largest spying organization upside down.

He has singlehandedly put the world's most powerful nation on the defensive.

He has altered the course of diplomacy between the U.S./Russia.

Snowden's actions have initiated bills in Congress and investigations.

If he's a coward, it's the kind of coward you wish you could be.

[George II]

164. "If he's a coward, it's the kind of coward you wish you could be."

Not at all. If I was in the position he was in and leaked the information he he leaked, if I felt it was the right thing to do I'd be here in the US to defend my actions, not holed up somewhere halfway around the world.

He's in Russia, not the US, he's a coward.

[wtmusic]

166. My, you have a naive viewpoint.

You really think any of this would have come out? How many press conferences has Bradley Manning held since he was arrested?

Answer: zero.

Ed Snowden would have been hauled off to solitary confinement before you ever knew his name - much less realized what he had discovered.

Coward, my ass.

[George II]

167. Yes I do think so.

[George II]

78. Except that Obama DIDN'T have to explain himself in front of the entire nation...

....YOU are going to have to do better than that!

[RetroLounge]

95. ...

RL

[DirkGently]

74. The appearance, regardless of any arguments, is that Snowden WON.

Snowden revelations force Obama's hand on surveillance program

Analysis -- NSA leaker Edward Snowden’s revelations have forced President Barack Obama’s hand, leading the president to announce new reforms of the government’s classified surveillance programs.
After his administration issued repeated defenses of a National Security Agency monitoring program that collects Americans’ phone and Internet data, Obama announced during a press conference Friday afternoon that reforms to the system will make the collection activities more transparent and "give the American people additional confidence that there are additional safeguards against abuse."

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/09/19950803-snowden-revelations-force-obamas-hand-on-surveillance-program?lite

[arely staircase]

80. to some it could be nothing else nt

[DirkGently]

85. Pretty hard to argue the timing though, eh?

First the big, empty Terror Alert. Then a sudden announcement of a shift in policy.

I credit Obama for recognizing the winds had shifted, but the NSA leaks certainly appear to have been the biggest factor in shifting them.

[Michigan-Arizona]

82. K&R n/t

[Civilization2]

91. the secret budgets are the next thing to break,.. Big-Intel gets how much?$??

End the corporate spook state!

[blackspade]

103. Ruh row....

If Snowden wasn’t whistleblowing on wrongdoing then why would there be a need to call for reforms based on what he has revealed?

Good point.

[AppleBottom]

105. True Edward Snowden has offered more real hope and change over corrupt American policies.

When it was Obama who had promised to do that, instead he has only reinforced the corrupt policies.

[blkmusclmachine]

118. +1.

[Douglas Carpenter]

119. knr

[great white snark]

122. Revisionist crap by crappy FDL disseminated by craptacular...

Oh and enjoy your day.

[Union Scribe]

131. You should be a debate coach. nt

[nradisic]

123. I cannot believe I voted for this guy twice

I am actually upset at myself that I voted for Obama twice now...I feel cheated. He is the Manchurian Candidate. The NSA revelations are just icing on the cake. When President Obama speaks now, I just turn the channel...that's what i used to do when Bush spoke. Unreal...

[randome]

135. I'm upset with you, too.

That you choose to post pointless barbs that bring nothing to the discussion.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[millennialmax]

147. I am upset that I only voted for him once (in 2012).

If I could go back and cast my vote for him in 2008, I'd feel much better about myself.

[cantbeserious]

129. Imagine That - They Agree - Yet Obama Demands Incarceration - Duplicity Of The Highest Order

eom

[truth2power]

136. Obama is tying himself into knots, trying to have it both ways...

As Mr. Walker says, "If Snowden wasn’t whistleblowing on wrongdoing then why would there be a need to call for reforms based on what he has revealed?" Indeed!

So, Obama puts forth "vague and rather weak" reforms according to the author. Sound and fury, signifying nothing, IMO.

Pres. Obama can't win on this argument. He's going to make himself look even more foolish and hypocritical as he tries to spin and spin.

Snowden is a traitor, and yet, NOW we're going to have the conversation that should have been had 5 years ago, except that, up until now, the Administration thought they could HIDE their machinations from the American people, so it was all good.

[Aerows]

137. "I propose to do the dishes"

doesn't have quite the same ring to it as "I did the dishes."

[indepat]

153. Who our government chooses to prosecute and who it chooses not to prosecute imo are

most telling about how government views its responsibilities regarding the rule of law, equal justice under the law, and the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and whether it views itself as a democratic republic or a totalitarian police-type state.

[DirkGently]

154. Great. This is one way things can work.

Last edited Sat Aug 10, 2013, 11:37 PM - Edit history (1)

I see that it will now be argued that Obama was actually working on this the whole time.

Great. Then obviously Snowden and Greenwald gave him the public momentum HE NEEDED to take the next step -- the step where Obama actually calls for the reform he hinted at as a candidate.

Obama should thank him. It wasn't a fight; it was a helping hand.

[WillyT]

155. LOL !!! - Don't Hold Your Breath...

[bvar22]

159. Certainly.

President Obama and the "Centrist" supporters here should be thanking Snowden for assisting the President and giving his this wonderful opportunity
to put Obama's Original Plan into place!

The "Fringe Leftists", former mainstream-Center FDR/LBJ Democrats,
are already thanking Snowden for this opportunity,
so this is something that we ALL can agree on.

Snowden just HELPED Obama with his agenda!
Whats NOT to like?

Hugs ALL around!!!

[Rex]

158. Sometimes you cannot help but agree with a positively known notion.

The greatest worry for nations is their lack of control over the Internets. It is the Pandora's Box of the Information Age.

[woo me with science]

168. K&R