Can anyone truly deny we're on the path to a new Holocaust?

[Pab Sungenis]

Now we're moving from simple scapegoating and oppressive laws to the denial of the status of humanity for LGBT in Russia.

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/gay-peoples-hearts-unsuitable-for-life-says-head-of-russias-state-controlled-tv-news/politics/2013/08/10/72922

On “Vesti,” Rossiya 1?s top news show — which airs all across Russia every two hours – Dmitri Kisilev told his fellow Russian citizens that the hearts of LGBT people are “unsuitable” for life.

Referring to Putin’s new anti-gay laws, Kisilev can be seen in the video below stating vehemently, “I think that just imposing fines on gays for homosexual propaganda among teenagers is not enough.”

In his hate-filled screed, Kisilev continues, saying gay people “should be banned from donating blood, sperm,” and adds that he believes “their hearts, in case of the automobile accident, should be buried in the ground or burned as unsuitable for the continuation of life.”

The less human you make your scapegoated group seem, the easier it is for the population to accept repression, terror, and eventually genocide.

It's starting again, people. Don't repeat the shameful acquiescence of the 1930's.

[Posteritatis]

1. Yow, especially considering the source

A lot of the time, "it's starting again" type rhetoric can be hyperbolic, but that language coming from that person on that station? For all practical purposes that's the official opinion of the Russian government.

This is probably going to get worse.

[RKP5637]

36. The Olympics should be pulled from Russia, Russia is clearly moving on a path back in time. n/t

[Oakenshield]

2. Russia has something of a history where mass murder is concerned.

Certainly they've become more tame compared to the days of Stalin and the Soviet Union, but anyone who thinks Russia is truly a reformed super power is deluding themselves. Come to think of it, we're not all that reformed ourselves. How many Iraqis have we killed again? I think it starts at 147 thousand. Some estimate over a million.

[LeftofObama]

3. K & R for more exposure.

That actually gave me chills!

[cali]

4. there is always a genocide ongoing.

[dipsydoodle]

5. The Holocast was a specific historic event against which there are no valid comparisons.

.

[Gravitycollapse]

6. Disregarding size, the 1994 Rwandan Genocide.

[1-Old-Man]

11. And just so we don't forget there was Cambodia and of course Uganda (the Ibo).

Anyone who thinks that no comparison should ever be made to Nazi Germany because it was somehow unique is, first, ignoring the single most researched and reported takeover of a modern industrial nation by a despot - a lesson that only a fool would ignore; and second, simply doesn't seem to understand that it was anything unique in its murderous intent and power.

[cali]

15. yes, comparisons should be made, but dipsy is quite right

that the Holocaust refers to a specific genocide.

[1-Old-Man]

30. I half way think you're right, but the other half says no

Sitting here nearly 60 years later I think the word had grown to mean more than just the killing of millions by the Germans in the Nazi era. It seems to me that the meaning has expanded to any nation that does something similar, and probably requiring similar relative scale too. I think Cambodia qualifies as does Uganda and undoubtedly many more too. A friend once told me that Idi Amin killed every Ibo on earth, but I believe that there are still a few living. The killing fields in Cambodia rival the gas chambers in Poland in every way except absolute numbers. To me there are more modern holocausts, so I expand the term.

[cali]

35. It hasn't. Not by historians. The Holocaust refers to a discrete historical event

Now you may disagree with that, but your disagreement doesn't change it.

Cambodia, Uganda, Rwanda, Armenia, The Congo- all and more are genocides. None are the Holocaust. That doesn't make any of them less tragic.

[leveymg]

44. I think the word holocaust should be retired from the English language.

Genocide works for the many other events of group-based extermination.

[NuclearDem]

148. Before it came to be associated with the Nazis, "holocaust" referred to

The Armenian genocide. Holocaust in a lot of ways is synonymous with genocide, but because we identify the Nazi crimes as the capital H Holocaust, we reserve the term culturally just for that.

[Doctor_J]

52. So you're saying that the expression "nuclear holocaust" is invalid?

[cali]

53. uh, no. I'm saying that "The Holocaust" is a specific reference to the Nazi genocide

see? easy. anyone with a few functioning brain cells can differentiate between "Nuclear Holocaust" and "The Holocaust".

[Posteritatis]

56. The other popular meaning of "state-sponsored extermination of a group" is clear enough. (nt)

[MNBrewer]

114. The word "holocaust" dates from the mid-13th century

I doubt it can only be used to refer to a specific genocide.

http://etymonline.com/?search=holocaust

[dbackjon]

121. Which started with, wait for it....

GERMAN GAYS


So yes, the holocaust IS a valid comparison.

[Smarmie Doofus]

81. +1. Nicely put. n/t

[dipsydoodle]

13. You are also disregarding the expression used - The Holocaust.

Any allusions with that are offensive.

[Gravitycollapse]

18. Ah okay. I misread this entire OP and your response.

Yes, the usage of "Holocaust" here is offensive.

[Pab Sungenis]

32. The denial

is offensive.

This is the exact same technique used by Nazi Germany, and all the denial and ostrich-like behavior will do nothing to change that. If anything, it just increases the validity of the comparison.

The rallying chant I hear every Yom HaShoah is "never again." Guess what? This IS "again."

[cali]

37. no it doesn't. It would be offensive to deny that they're genocide. It's accurate

to state that the Holocaust is a reference to one specific genocide.

Comparing other genocides to the Holocaust if valid. Naming other genocides the Holocaust, is historically inaccurate.

[Pab Sungenis]

41. So one of the groups victimized in the Holocaust

isn't allowed to point out that the same technique is at use now?

[cali]

49. huh? Are you suggesting that there's an ongoing genocide in Russia targeting

GLBT folks?

Marginalizing any given group; even oppressing them, doesn't invariably lead to genocide. In fact, it rarely does. Look at all the groups, we've marginalized in this country. Look at all the groups marginalized around the world at any given moment.

You're swerving madly and you employ zip in the way of logic or critical thinking.

[Pab Sungenis]

63. "Are you suggesting that there's an ongoing genocide in Russia targeting GLBT folks?"

Yes. It's in the early stages.

And I hate to tell you this, but a lot of our marginalization in this country DID lead to genocide. I consider the devastation of the American Indians and the treatment of blacks in the South up until the Civil War to qualify as genocide or at the very least attempted genocide.

[cali]

78. making that claim isn't evidence.

It doesn't matter how emphatically or how many times you make it.

Is it possible that there could be a genocide of the GLBT population within Russia? Yes, but if one is actually concerned about such an event, one should be far more concerned about it happening in other places- such as Uganda. In fact:

<snip>

Africa generally is becoming a dangerous place to be openly gay – no fewer than 37 African countries have declared homosexuality illegal – but Uganda is evidently the most dangerous, with a prominent politician called David Bahati championing legislation – bluntly called the Anti-Homosexuality Act – which would introduce life imprisonment for people found guilty of same-gender sex, and the death penalty for serial offenders.

If only this represented the ranting of a right-wing zealot, out of step with public opinion. In fact, Mills found perfectly bright schoolchildren who are likewise of the view that homosexuality is an abomination, and met a newspaper editor who insisted that it reduces the human lifespan by 24 years. A young lesbian told him that she had been raped in an attempt to cure her of her orientation, yet far from curing her, the rape left her pregnant and HIV-infected.

All this is a relatively recent phenomenon, apparently visited upon Africa by the growing influence there of American evangelists. And where angry shouting doesn’t work, glib humour is deployed. In the beginning it was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, offered a panellist on a phone-in radio show.


<snip>

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/worlds-worst-place-to-be-gay/

There is clear cut evidence that Russia has grown more intolerant and oppressive of GLBT folks. There is exactly zero evidence that there is an ongoing or even incipient genocide of the GLBT population there.

Yes, there was a genocide of native Americans. No, slavery was not genocide. Slaves were considered a valued commodity in the South. It was a slave economy. Does that make slavery anything but heinous? NO, of course not. It's just a different form of heinous.

Your grasp of facts and your selective outrage about Russia is interesting. Maybe you're just not terribly well informed. I don't know.

[cali]

38. oh, and claiming that YOU frickin' KNOW that there will be a genocide

of GLBT folks in Russia? bull.

[Pab Sungenis]

40. I frickin' KNOW

that it's ALREADY UNDERWAY.

This is how genocide progresses. Scapegoating, demonization, restrictive laws, violence, and now dehumanization.

[cali]

50. horseshit. Find one single human rights group that designates genocide against

GLBT folks in Russia.

For pity's sake, please employ a smidgeon of critical thinking. Scapegoating, demonization, etc, do NOT usually lead to genocide. And if you really gave a damn about GLBT folks, you'd be equally concerned with the countries where they're oppressed worse than in Russia.

You don't. You're just playing a revolting little political game.

[Pab Sungenis]

62. You have obviously never studied the history of the Holocaust.

This is the exact track that Hitler used to rise to power and then begin the Holocaust. Follow the pattern.

Thank you for belittling my rights by declaring them nothing more than a "revolting little political game." The difference between this case and something like Uganda is that we have leverage to help stop this case, if we act.

And people like you belittling our rights as a "revolting little political game" helps play into this attitude and makes it easier for genocide to happen.

[cali]

71. Actually, I have. Extensively.

but your posts make it crystal clear that you have not. No, most scapegoating does not lead to genocide. That scapegoating is part of the process leading to genocide doesn't change that.

Sorry, but it's damned fucking true that people here have been using Russia's homophobia to demonize Snowden. I haven't belittled anyone's rights.

and btw, not one GLBT Olympian endorses boycotting the Sochi games.

How fucking dare you accuse me of abetting genocide. I have done nothing of the kind.

I've posted extensively about genocide here. And unlike some of you- not just when it's convenient or I feel like it touches my life personally.

so take your nasty, false accusations and put them back from the dank, dark place you pulled them from.

[Creideiki]

83. Prove it.

No, really.

Document.

Prove it.

And then--inspect your straight privilege. Because your privilege is making you look like a not awesome person to be around.

[cali]

85. prove what?

[LostOne4Ever]

113. This is not about snowden

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]cali[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]And unlike some of you- not just when it's convenient or I feel like it touches my life personally.

I don't give a crap about Snowden one way or another. I am also not gay and don't live in Russia.

That said, I care quite greatly about equal rights, civil rights, and human rights. Not just in Russia, but in Jamaica, Afghanistan, here in the US, hell in the entire world.

There are many people here who have been advocates rights and liberties for years. To dismiss their outrage about what is happening in Russia and claim that they are really just complaining about Snowden without knowing any of them, without any evidence is just as illogical as claiming that all scapegoating inevitably leads to genocide.

Yes some people are using this to demonize Snowden, but not everyone. Claiming that is an illogical and hasty generalization that marginalize us and a cause many of us care deeply about. And while you are right that not all scapegoating leads to genocide, it is also true that it can and does lead to just that in many cases. Further given Russia's history I think being worried about it evolving into genocide is not unjustified. Especially given stories like the OP and this:

http://www.queerty.com/russian-skinheads-using-social-media-to-lure-kidnap-and-publicly-torture-gay-teens-20130726/#ixzz2aBApIYxz

A great many of us truly care about the homosexuals being persecuted anywhere and we hate what is going on in Russia. We want to speak out for the voiceless there. Further, many of us fear that many of our athletes will be arrested or have their voices silenced because of this evil law.

Accusing you of acquiescing to genocide was out of line, but so is claiming and implying that this is just about snowden.

[dbackjon]

124. That is today's DU

One minute you get called a Obama-shill, next minute, a continual Obama-hater

[Vanje]

92. Concern over Gay rights in Russia

Concern over Gay rights in Russia, or any other place is not "a revolting little political game."
Characterizing a member's post this way is flatly hostile.

[RKP5637]

39. +++ 1,000 +++ n/t

[enlightenment]

48. Why?

Because the genocide of Jews (and the mentally impaired - and Gypsies - and Gays) by the Nazis was somehow different because of the word?

The primary definition of holocaust is slaughter on a mass scale - usually by fire. Originally it referred to burnt offerings to the gods. It existed before the term genocide (1944), so it's not surprising that it was attached to the event - but that doesn't mean it can't ever be used again.

Nothing changes what the Nazis did, but attempting to sanctify a WORD isn't going to make it somehow better. Suggesting it is offensive to use it for anything but the Nazi holocaust is trying to do exactly that - sanctify it.

If you - and Dipsydoodle - want to make an issue over Pab's use of the term, no one can stop you, but it's not a very logical argument. If you want to go for technical accuracy, then it could be argued that genocide (the coordinated annihilation of a given group of people) is more accurate - because we do not know what form that might take. Certainly the comment that the hearts of gays should be burnt brings "holocaust" to mind, though.

You're right. Words matter - but in this case, not in the way you think. Yes, "genocide" would be a more accurate term - but suggesting that "holocaust" can NEVER be used for anything except for the one case is ridiculous.

[Posteritatis]

55. Ah yes, the "how dare anyone suggest similarities?" school of denial

I like that one.

It's the one that's led people to generally define "genocide" as "the German industrialized mass murder of Jews in central and eastern Europe between November 1938 and April 1945," thus making it easy to snidely dismiss just about anything in the same category.

[dbackjon]

122. Your continued defense of Russia, Putin and the GAY HOLOCAUST

Is what is offensive/


Why are you continually defending Putin/Pussia and downplaying the gay holocaust ongoing in Russia?

[HereSince1628]

28. Comparing genocides requires agreement on the basis of the comparisons

and a willingness to intellectualize events whose memories/histories can contain overwhelming painful emotions.

I think it's fair to say that awareness of the frank number of the dead, or proportion of the dead within a defined sub-population, need not be the only points for such comparisons.

For example the genocide committed on the indigenous people of the western hemisphere via 'colonization' by Europeans can be measured along geographical, international political, economic, historical, artistic and other dimensions. And along many of those dimensions the destruction of indigenous nations was virtually complete. Such scale would seem to make the word holocaust an apt descriptor of the centuries long event.

Yet, the phrase 'The Holocaust' communicates meanings associated with a specific recent international genocide. While it is a phrase to which only a few can place a good estimate of numbers of fatalities and true geographic extent, the phrase has the gravity within our culture to bend conversations of history, politics, religion, sociology, etc. in a way that few other genocides can.

It is my impression that groups defend the history and cultural importance of 'their' genocides lest their horrible histories be blended into other human atrocities and the "gravity" be lost among atrocities human societies so regularly commit. The reason to protect the identity of horrid events is because the power of that cultural gravity is undeniable. By shaping perspective and conversation it has power to protect.

It also has the power to be destructive. Recently, in the former Yugoslavia genocidal atrocities from 1000 years ago were invoked as rationales for war and attempted exterminations of subpopulations. Holocausts, and specifically, the emotional wounds of holocausts within culture are powerful things.

Like other forms of power, ownership of the gravity of historical genocidal events is claimed and protected, sometimes jealously.

[leftstreet]

51. ^^This^^

[dipsydoodle]

57. I keep seeing ^^This^^

but rarely ^^That^^ and certainly not ^^The other^^

What is ^^This^^ ?

[leftstreet]

58. ^^That^^

It's like "+1" for extra emphasis

[dipsydoodle]

59. Oh.

Ta for letting me know. I'd already searched text abbs on the off chance and blanked.

[DevonRex]

66. He did say a "new" Holocaust. Although he did use the upper case H

I understand its use. LGBT rights' groups have been very concerned about the legalalization of bigotry against LGBTs in Russia. The situation is much more dire than people seem to be aware of.

People in Russia actually lure LGBTs out of their homes, beat them, film it, and post the beatings on the internet. In some cases these beatings wind up on the news and are not condemned.

In addition, this is a trend throughout eastern Europe.

[Zorra]

116. WE WERE VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU, OR ANYONE ELSE HERE,

dismiss our fears and concerns about how it may happen again, may be happening again, in light of our current persecution worldwide, by telling us there are no valid comparisons, or whatever the fuck else entails y'all's lame rationalizations and denials about the hate and violence we experience worldwide on a daily basis.

Do you have any idea what this pink triangle means?!?

Persecution of Homosexuals in the Third Reich

On June 28, 1935, the Ministry of Justice revised Paragraph 175. The revisions provided a legal basis for extending Nazi persecution of homosexuals. Ministry officials expanded the category of "criminally indecent activities between men" to include any act that could be construed as homosexual. The courts later decided that even intent or thought sufficed. On October 26, 1936, Himmler formed within the Security Police the Reich Central Office for Combating Abortion and Homosexuality. Josef Meisinger, executed in 1947 for his brutality in occupied Poland, led the new office. The police had powers to hold in protective custody or preventive arrest those deemed dangerous to Germany's moral fiber, jailing indefinitely--without trial--anyone they chose. In addition, homosexual prisoners just released from jail were immediately re-arrested and sent to concentration camps if the police thought it likely that they would continue to engage in homosexual acts.

From 1937 to 1939, the peak years of the Nazi persecution of homosexuals, the police increasingly raided homosexual meeting places, seized address books, and created networks of informers and undercover agents to identify and arrest suspected homosexuals. On April 4, 1938, the Gestapo issued a directive indicating that men convicted of homosexuality could be incarcerated in concentration camps. Between 1933 and 1945 the police arrested an estimated 100,000 men as homosexuals. Most of the 50,000 men sentenced by the courts spent time in regular prisons, and between 5,000 and 15,000 were interned in concentration camps.

The Nazis interned some homosexuals in concentration camps immediately after the seizure of power in January 1933. Those interned came from all areas of German society, and often had only the cause of their imprisonment in common. Some homosexuals were interned under other categories by mistake, and the Nazis purposefully miscategorized some political prisoners as homosexuals. Prisoners marked by pink triangles to signify homosexuality were treated harshly in the camps. According to many survivor accounts, homosexuals were among the most abused groups in the camps.
snip---
There are no known statistics for the number of homosexuals who died in the camps.

What in the unholy fuck has happened to DU?

NEVER AGAIN.

[dipsydoodle]

118. The fact you were the victims of persecution as were the Roma.

doesn't alter the fact that The Holocaust refers specifically to the Jewish people.

[BillStein]

119. That proves it

You really don't know what "Holocaust" refers to. Even the US Holocaust Memorial In Washington includes Romas, Gays and other groups.

No one who has ever studied the subject limits the Holocaust to Jews

[Zorra]

137. Yep. Read: "You were imprisoned, tortured, experimented on, and murdered by the Nazis during the

Holocaust, but you don't really count as victims of the Holocaust because you are LGBT the wrong ethnic group."

[Capt. Obvious]

131. Never forget

that Jews own the capital H Holocaust.

The rest get lower case h holocaust.

Some scholars argue that the mass murder of the Romani and people with disabilities should be included in the definition,[9][10] and some use the common noun "holocaust" to describe other Nazi mass murders, including those of Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, and homosexuals.[11][12] Recent estimates based on figures obtained since the fall of the Soviet Union indicates some ten to eleven million civilians (mostly Slavs) and prisoners of war were intentionally murdered by the Nazi regime.[13][14]

[DevonRex]

160. But he did not say The Holocaust. He said a New Holocaust.

And, since we're not talking about Hitler, your point is moot don't you think, especially in light of the date. If you're talking about being historically specific, there's not the slightest possibility of confusion.

[Bluenorthwest]

164. So very wrong. As a child I was taken to Yad Vashim, Shoah Memorial in Jerusalem

there I was taught very clearly that while Jews had the greatest losses, the Holocaust destroyed cultures and murdered humans from many background and many of the Christian faith. The Roma were included, as were 'homosexuals' in the terminology of the day and let's not forget the disabled, they were the first to go. Defective they were deemed, race, faith, nation and loyalty mattered not.

[Pab Sungenis]

129. On top of which, gays were never "liberated" from the camps

Because the Allies decided that the laws banning homosexuality were valid and gay internees went back into detention.

[Zorra]

138. That's sick. Can you imagine how crushed, devastated, those poor gay internees must have been?

Unspeakably shameful and wicked.

[Pab Sungenis]

140. Paragraph 175 of the German Criminal Code.

Not actually repealed until 1994.

From the Wikipedia entry:

While the Nazi persecution of homosexuals is reasonably well-known today, far less attention had been given to the continuation of this persecution in post-war Germany. In 1945, after the concentration camps were liberated, some homosexual prisoners were recalled to custody to serve out their sentence under Paragraph 175. In 1950, East Germany abolished Nazi amendments to Paragraph 175, whereas West Germany kept them and even had them confirmed by its Constitutional Court.

From another great article on the subject at http://www.hardenet.com/homocaust/liberationforothers.htm

After the camps were liberated and the plight of the Jewish victims acknowledged worldwide, the persecution of homosexuals continued throughout post-war Germany. While many survivors were rebuilding their lives and families initially in displaced persons camps, homosexuals faced further persecution and social exclusion. In fact many pink triangle survivors were re-imprisoned under § 175, with time spent in concentration camps deducted from their pensions. Time spent in the camps contributed to their continued sentences that were then completed in prisons. While other victims of the Holocaust received compensation for loss of family and loss of education, homosexuals remained deviants in the eyes of post-war society. In fact in Germany many more men were prosecuted under § 175 in the years immediate to the Nazi regime.

In the 1945Nuremberg war crime trials that followed the liberation no mention was ever made of crimes against homosexuals. No SS official was ever tried for specific atrocities against pink triangle prisoners. Many of the known SS Doctors, who had performed operations on homosexuals, were never brought to account for their actions. One of the most notorious SS doctors was Carl Peter Vaernet who performed numerous experiments on pink triangle inmates at the Buchenwald and Neuengamme camps. He was never tried for his crimes and escaped to South America where he died a free man in 1965.

In fact, go read the entire site. There's a lot of information there about the gay victims of the Holocaust: http://www.hardenet.com/homocaust/index.htm

[Deep13]

128. false, there has been a genocide or ethnic cleansing every year since 1945...

somewhere in the world. The Nazi Holocaust is just one notorious example of a very typical human activity. Once people convince themselves that monstrous actions are for the greater good, they become capable of any evil.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. I would not say every year

But every five...pretty much.

[Deep13]

156. some of them took a long time.

I'm relying on Michael Mann's book, The Darkside of Democracy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. I know, when I was in college we just did the big ones

except the well known one, for a seminar open to the public. And that was about 20 of them, starting with the Armenian Holocaust.

I had a holocaust survivor almost scream at me for not covering the holocaust since you know... I hate Jews or something. So I looked her in the eye, and was blunt.

First, I am the daughter of a Holocaust Survivor. Fifty of my relatives went up the smoke stack at Treblynka. I would have told her more, but at the time I did not know the details of what my dad had to do to survive, ain't pretty.

Second, The Holocaust is extremely well known and studied... enough, we need to learn of others.

Third, they happen too often and if NEVER AGAIN means anything, it is not just stopping the next one involving the people of Israel but every other holocaust around.

She stood there not knowing what to say.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. You do know the Holocaust included more than Jews right?

Many of it's victims were LGBT communities.

Hell, yes there are valid comparisons. I could start with the Killing Fields in Cambodia... or the Armenian Holocaust... or...

Jesus on a trailer hitch....

[Donald Ian Rankin]

7. Of course we're not, don't be so stupid.

Many countries have worse gay rights laws than Russia. In none of those has it led to state-sponsored genocide (although if memory serves me Iran does execute gay people).

This kind of hysterical melodramatic bilge doesn't help gay rights in Russia, and risks undermining attempts to do so.

[Fumesucker]

9. Russia has gay rights laws?

Who knew?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. In Russia, it's currently not legal to murder gay people. In some countries, it is.

"Gay rights are human rights" works both ways.

Laws that grant everybody rights - including rights like not being murdered, or not being imprisoned - are, among their other virtues, gay rights laws.

If you were to rank the countries of the world from best to worst in terms of gay rights, I don't know where Russia would come, but I suspect the answer is "nowhere near as close to the bottom as one might hope".

It is striking that the countries that attract the most headlines in this area are places like Russia and Uganda, where gay rights are in the process of getting worse, rather than places like Iran, where they are already at rock bottom, but stationary.

[Fumesucker]

20. It's not so much wrapped up in religion in Russia, not so sure about Uganda

Religious reasons for doing something aren't really so much open to question, a lot of people don't want to start that conversation.

Not to mention that Russia is a larger and more important in the overall scheme of things place than Iran or Uganda.

If it's legal it's not murder, if you want to get all technical about how language is used.

Homicide yes, murder no.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

22. Isn't it? My impression was that it was at least partly a post-communist Orthodox resurgence.

That said, I'm in no way, shape or form an expert on Russian politics. But I think religion is a large part of it.

Another part may be a desire to stick two fingers up at the west and assert national machismo, which may make it hard for the rest of the world to do anything about it.

[Fumesucker]

23. I think the perception is that it's more national machismo (good phrase)

Which makes it much more comfortable for a lot of westerners to criticize than if it were thought bigotry in Russia was more religious.

Russia is religious more like the USA than religious like Iran I think, a lip service gloss over a predatory capitalistic society.

[dipsydoodle]

25. Could be and could also be regional.

The outcry on the most recent law , which was a unifying law for the whole of Russia , ignored the fact the same law was already been in place in some areas of Russia under local law and had been so for some years.

Other than pouring bottles of vodka down drains there probably isn't much the rest of the world can do about it.

[DevonRex]

69. In Russia they just don't give a shit. nt

[arely staircase]

73. so nothing to see, everybody move along

[Donald Ian Rankin]

79. How did you get to there from "not a prelude to genocide"?

Do you think that anything that isn't genocide is OK?

If not, why do you think that I do?

[Fumesucker]

8. Oddly enough, they are a lot easier to notice when you are the one in the crosshairs

[cali]

12. oddly enough, if genocide happens in the Congo, no one ever notices

[Fumesucker]

17. No one?

That would include you.

[cali]

19. oh, I think you know what I mean.

real genocide is ongoing.

[Pab Sungenis]

33. Oddly enough, Congo isn't hosting the Olympics.

Oddly enough, they're not a major trading partner of ours.

[HiPointDem]

153. oddly enough, they *are* trading partners of ours.

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/africa/central-africa/republic-congo

[JNelson6563]

47. Yeah, but they're just black people

and they probably aren't even gay so fuck 'em.

(for the sarcasm impaired)

Julie

[bravenak]

54. But they're black.

It's inadmissible, they wear hoodies and stuff.

[Zorra]

10. Russia is a conservative hatehole. nt

[dipsydoodle]

21. Quite novel

that Russia could possibly go from a Communist State to a "conservative hate hole" in less than 30 years.

[Zorra]

26. Stalin bred it, and Putin and the Russian Orthodox Church feed it.

&feature=youtu.be

Like in a Red Prison

Gruel-Propaganda, Gruel-Propagandaaaa!

The country has hardly mastered
Mechanized labor.
More and more often when I'm working hard --
I am rude -- don’t know if it’s appropriate.

Local activists flow down the pipeline,
Filling it with life and calling for destruction!

The country has hardly mastered
Mechanized labor.

Federal Penitentiary Service, Interior Ministry, Emergency Situations Ministry, and Rosnano,
LUKoil, TNK, Rosneft, and Gazprom,

Gruel-Propaganda, Gruel-Propagandaaaa!

Get registration,
Evildoers at the oil towers,
Oil on the tables,
Sechin with crocodiles,
Like in a red prison.

Bathe the worker in the Norwegian fjord,
Cut off your penis like the Depardieu character,
You have a president like Iran’s ayatollah,
And your church is like it is in the U.A.E.

Gruel-Propaganda, Gruel-Propagandaaaa!

So, let everything be like it is in Qatar,
Evildoers at the oil towers,
Pumping till its dry,
A physics university teaches theology,
Epaulettes and oil wells,
Navalny in jail,
Hugo Chavez lives,
Like in a red prison.

Gruel-Propaganda, Gruel-Propagandaaaa!

Evil ****ing sexist, leave the hole alone!
Homophobic vermin, out from history!
Gruel-Propaganda, Gruel-Propagandaaaa!

Don’t **** with her pussycat,
She spends oil on something else.
In the Mordovian days' quiet,
She makes salads and sometimes eats them.

Gruel-Propaganda, Gruel-Propagandaaaa!
http://lyricstranslate.com

[Scootaloo]

29. The USSR was a fascist state that used the rhetoric of communism

This leads to the often-repeated "common wisdom" argument that the extreme left and extreme right are "just as bad as each other." Thus leading of course to the following "logic" that the best solution is some spot exactly in the middle, the goldilocks zone of politics.

That the USSR could go from a fascist hellhole with a state-controlled economy to a fascist hellhole with a slightly less state-controlled economy isn't exactly a stretch by any means. It just means that the assholes in charge discovered a way to wring the people harder, at higher profit, with better PR.

[dbackjon]

125. Why?

The leap from authoritarian communism to right-wing fascism is a small step.

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. Jesus, the ignorance is breath taking

Russia, with a few short window, two of them actually, has been quite the authoritarian state.

Mull on this, Lenin warned the politburo about Stalin...and his penchant for authoritarianism before he died.

The second window was with Yeltsin after the fall of communism.

The NKVD was the successor to the Tsar's secret police...using the same Lubianka prison and all...it morphed to the KGB. The FSB is the successor to the KGB...care to guess where the headquarters are? Ooopp Lubianka again.

Even with all that modern day Russia is actually better than under the Party...for a good number...far worst if you are a pensioner.

But but, but...they were Communists!!!! First it is not what Marx envisioned, two...it is a pretty authoritarian left wing system. So going to a right wing authoritarian system is a short jump.

[cali]

16. yes. if you're saying that there is a coming genocide in Russia of gay people

that is less than certain.

[Pab Sungenis]

64. Coming?

It's starting.

[cali]

72. link. one link from any reputable rights organization that confirms that a genocide has started in

Russia.

You really are, er, ill informed.

[undeterred]

24. 8 stages of genocide

This website has a list of the stages that happen when people are deemed inhuman: Classification? Symbolization? Dehumanization? Organization ? Polarization? Preparation ? Extermination ? Denial

http://genocidewatch.net/genocide-2/8-stages-of-genocide/

But its important to realize that this has happened and is happening now to people in countries all over the world. All kinds of people. It's been going on forever.

http://genocidewatch.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Report_Genocide_Watch_2012.pdf

[Donald Ian Rankin]

45. Just because genocide is usually preceded by x does not mean x usually leads to genocide.

People who commit genocide usually have breakfast first, and indeed there's a causal link between eating breakfast and committing genocide, because it's hard to murder people on an empty stomach, but that doesn't mean that we should assume that where we see breakfast being eaten genocide will follow.

Yes, gay rights in Russia are going rapidly downhill, and that's a bad thing. But talking about genocide is both silly and counterproductive.

[Fire Walk With Me]

27. Oh Lord, I hope note. I hadn't extrapolated down that path while considering where it's being done

and yes, it appears they are "Othering" the LGBTQ community. Ugly screed designed to further ugly intent, no matter whether they go as far as has been done in the past; it is unacceptable.

[LuvNewcastle]

31. It sure smells that way to me.

Unfortunately, however, some people are mixing the issue in with the NSA controversy and Snowden's asylum in Russia. That needs to stop. The persecution of gay people in Russia isn't something anyone should use to play politics.

[RKP5637]

34. Some people have to hate and kill and purify in their warped minds... the MO stays the same, but

the names change and the target morphs ... it's disgusting behavior, they just get their jollys via the visceral enjoyment of persecution ... as individuals, groups or countries ...

[Avalux]

42. Do you have more than this snippet to support your claim?

Using the word genocide carries a lot of responsibility and should not be done for the sole purpose of controversy. I'm not saying your wrong, but I'd like to see a bit more to substantiate your claim. And yes, I've read and am aware of Russia's anti-gay law.

[Pab Sungenis]

43. You're not truly aware of the scope of the law

if you can't see the pattern.

[JNelson6563]

46. Fighting hyperbole with hyperbole.

I mean really? "Holocaust"??

You think some homophobe's rant is an indication that soon Russia will round up all the gays and gas 'em?

No wonder I come to DU less and less. The place just ain't as lucid as it once was.

Julie

[Bluenorthwest]

165. In 1936 the Olympic committee went to Germany to investigate because many wanted a boycott of

the Nazi hosted games. The committee found 'no discrimination' against Jews in Germany and in fact declared that the claims of discrimination came from a conspiracy between the press and Jews to harm the Nazi State.
So we went to the Olympics having been told there was no bad stuff happening to Jews in Germany. Having been told, in fact, that Jews were being hyperbolic intentionally.
Then there was the Holocaust.
Who was correct, those who said 'oh, come on, you think they are doing this?' or the ones who said 'we should not attend because they are horrible to minorities'.
I'd rather err on the side of caution than repeat the 1936 blaming of the victims. How about you, Julie?

[dembotoz]

60. perhaps if we were to use upper case and lower case h for holocaust

upper case as in The Holocaust
vs
lower case as in A holocaust.

i do have problems with the concept that we cannot label a potential genocide as serious until we see death camps.

A question then becomes how many must die or be tortured until it can be called real

10?

a thousand?

a million?

over 6 million?

[Doctor_J]

67. apparently the syntax police want to reserve holocaust for Nazi Germany, and genocide for

everything else.

[dembotoz]

143. so if it is a lesser genocide you are lesser tortured and dead?

sure that is of great comfort to the families

[AngryOldDem]

61. I think this is why the Russian Olympics debate is important.

I totally get the argument that a boycott would only penalize people who have worked years, if not their entire lives, for this event.

However, that does not mean that the world should not continue to shine a very harsh and judgmental light on Russia's views of gays. I don't care that Russia has "suspended" it's anti-gay laws for the Olympics. That "official" action will do nothing to stop any vigilante group or sole actor from fulfilling the spirit of that law. And I'm sure the authorities won't exactly spring into action to prevent violence against a group of people they already see as inhuman.

Any concerted action demonstrating how the rest of the world feels about these laws, at an event such as the Olympics, may be the last chance to prevent widespread violence against gays. I would like to see all athletes do a soul-searching and decide for themselves what they should do. Individual refusal to participate, I think, would say a lot more than an act that could be spun into a state vs. state argument.

And I don't think "genocide" is too strong a word about where this could lead, if people don't begin speaking up and acting now, just as the opportunity was lost by virtue of silence back in the '30s.

At the **very** least, this should be the LAST Olympic Games that Russia should ever be allowed to host.

[HiPointDem]

65. oh for god's sake. the right wing has been on the move all over europe, esp. in the states

most affected by bankster 'austerity'. everytime i post a thread on e.g. the golden dawn in greece, i get zippo from those now so suddenly concerned with the 'new holocaust' in russia.

why do i think a lot of some posters' new-found concern has little to do with lgbt rights & much to do with snowden?

[DevonRex]

68. Pab is GAY. How dare you. nt

[theHandpuppet]

70. You owe Pab an apology

But I won't hold my breath waiting for it.

[HiPointDem]

76. how's that?

[hrmjustin]

74. I am offended by your remark! The law was just recently passed so that is why we are discussing it!

[HiPointDem]

75. bullshit. essentially the same laws have been in force in 10 russian provinces starting in (if i

recall correctly) 2002.

and exactly one person has been convicted under them, & 3 courts have ruled that such laws didn't prevent people from exercising their rights to e.g. participate in a gay pride parade.

no, certain parties have an interest in promoting & amplifying this discussion *now* & it's because of snowden.

that's why you're discussing it. because they only care & are publicizing the law to you because of snowden; they didn't care before.

[hrmjustin]

77. I am gay and I always care what my LGBT borthers and sisters are going through and so does th OP!

[HiPointDem]

80. that may be but it doesn't address my post. neither you or the op were posting about lfbt

issues in russia prior to the snowden incident.

[hrmjustin]

82. I tend not to start OPs on the issue but I have postered on LGBT issues in many countries.

I am not a regular poster in the LGBT room but I am in the religion room and I assure you I have addressed the issue in there. As to Russia the national law came up at the same time of Snowden getting on the scene. That could not be helped by posters here.

Now I have almost 15,000 posts and I can not tell you whether I have addressed Russia before this issue started but I can tell you I address it because it needs to be addressed.

[HiPointDem]

84. & as to the provincial laws? & as to the fact that russian courts have *not* interpreted these

laws in the way your friends are claiming? & as to the fact that there has only been 1 prosecution under such laws?

i have no problem with people raising concerns over such laws. i have a big problem with them raising hysteria by using false claims, & in general with using identity politics to further the goals of power politics.

[hrmjustin]

87. Yes but the laws are on the books. They may not have started to enforce them but they put them on

the books. What state laws were passed over the years does not get as much attention as when the national government does it. Russia is not some small country.

The fact is people are addressing these issues because they need to be addressed. Don't you think they need to be addressed?

[HiPointDem]

93. yes, the laws are on the books, and i totally agree that they can be used heinously. but i

would like some acknowledgment that over the last decade, they haven't been used any more heinously than, e.g. the patriot act has. There has been no 'genocide' of gay people in russia & in fact there is an active gay movement in russia.

homosexuality was illegal in russia until 1993, so in fact, the picture is much more mixed than the anti-snowden bots are claiming.

[hrmjustin]

94. The point is that more an more LGBT people in Russia are being marginalized and we feel the need to

address it and if that bothers supporters of Snowden they will have to get over it. They will also have to realize that this stuff happened at the same time. Also Russia holds the Olympics Games next year and the issue of a boycott should be discussed.

[Vanje]

97. ......

Not every post is about Snowden.
Pab's OP is NOT about Snowden.

Thats another issue. Surely there are plentiful other posts on DU which are actually about Snowden, in which you can talk about Snowden until you climax with bliss.

[HiPointDem]

99. no, it's not about snowden. but the reason there are so many ops about russia's laws *is* snowden.

snowden is the reason for the media attention, & snowden is the reason for the increase in posts at DU.

[Vanje]

103. Nope

When a gay guy posts an OP about gay rights in Russia, It is NOT about Snowden.


In DU's LGBT group , Russia has been a hot topic for a while.
I've never seen a post in that group about Snowden.

Just because you think everything is about Snowden, doesn't mean everyone does.

Your straightness is blinding you.

[HiPointDem]

106. YEP. The reason this issue has suddenly become so prominent is because of snowden.

[Vanje]

108. Ridiculous!

[HiPointDem]

109. ridiculous yourself.

[cali]

88. this thread is turning into something more than a little bizarre.

If you don't agree that there is "the beginning of genocide" against the GLBT population in Russia, you run the risk of being called homophobic or an abetter of genocide.

Never mind that you can deplore and condemn the oppressive laws and homophobia that does exist there, and never mind the reality that on DU there have been ops directly linking Snowden to the homophobia extant in Russia.

Personally, GLBT rights have long been the civil rights battle that's been most important to me personally and that I've been actively involved in going back to Vermont's battle for marriage equality in the 90s.

[DevonRex]

90. No, HiPointDem, as usual is minimizing Russia's hateful bigotry

Against LGBTs which has just now been legalized. AND she accused GAY people of only caring because of SNOWDEN.

She's a fucking broken record. Snowden, Snowden, Snowden. Anything negative about Russia and North Korea has to be suppressed at all costs. It's like fucking Pravda in 1950.
She has said it's OUR fault North Korea wants to nuke us for fuck sake. And that Kim Jong In is perfectly sane.

[cali]

91. OK, but the op is minimizing genocide and to point that out is to risk

being told one is homophobic or abetting genocide.

Yes, it is hateful bigotry and it shouldn't be minimized, but to claim that it's genocide minimizes the very real genocides that are ongoing or past. And that includes the very real potential genocide against Uganda's GLBT population.

There is an opportunity, due to the upcoming Olympics to bring oppression and bigotry against GLBT folks into sharp focus and raise awareness about it. How that can best be done can be debated.

[DevonRex]

107. He's warning of the beginning of a NEW holocaust intentionally

begun by Putin, who is using already existing prejudices and religious zealotry and the Orthodox Church to get it started.

Putin's Russia is facing economic hard times now. When he was criticized for corruption along those lines, he imprisoned, tortured, and murdered the whistle blower -Magnitsky. Since then dissenters and liberals have fled the country as he has continued to crack down on those who speak out.

So now he is trying to direct people's anger at a minority group, one that he perceives as weak. One that the fascists, a rising movement, have already been targeting. So he's using them, bringing those new "brown shirts" into his fold.

ETA: sorry had to edit punctuation, spelling, etc.

[Vanje]

96. Russians were 52% FOR Gay rights in recent years

Now that its ILLEGAL for Russians to speak out for gay rights, is it not surprising that far far fewer Russians poll in favor of Gay rights.

Russian anti-gay laws are Right NOW, having a chilling effect.

How comfortable you must be thinking that its no big deal.
Stay comfortable, Dude. It looks good on you.

[HiPointDem]

101. it's not illegal to speak about gay rights. and 'in recent years' = last year.

http://rbth.ru/articles/2012/08/17/russians_still_oppose_gay_marriage_become_more_tolerant_of_gay_union_17469.html

Fifty-seven percent of the respondents (against 43 percent in 2010) now speak against the criminal prosecution (including imprisonment) for consensual homosexuality among adults. The percentage of respondents who support such measures has gone down almost 10 percent (from 31 to 22 percent).

In the meantime, the respondents were divided on whether gays and lesbians should have the same rights as straight people: 46 percent of the respondents said they should have the same rights as straight people and 40 percent believe the rights of gays and lesbians should be restricted. Thirteen percent of the respondents said they are undecided.

[Vanje]

104. Your article is a year old.

Things have changed in Russia.

[HiPointDem]

105. that's what i said. that poll was LAST YEAR.

[Vanje]

95. Erosion of gay rights in Russia has been a major topic in DU's LGBT group.

For quite some time.
Its been in the news. LGBT oriented news sources have been addressing it
The rapid acceleration of government crackdown on gay rights in Russia is troubling.

Its news. Its been news for a while.
Calls for possible Olympic boycotts, have thrown the issue into the mainstream (Straight) news, but the story has been lively in DU's LGBT group.




I dont believe Snowden has been discussed in LGBT group at all.

Its not about Snowden.

[Pab Sungenis]

130. Bull.

I had been discussing the crackdown in Russia since it began.

I have posted ZERO on Snowden that I can remember. And if I HAD posted anything it would have been PRO Snowden.

My feelings on him and on Russia have nothing to do with each other.

[dbackjon]

126. You denial of the recent problems

Shows that you are playing a political game.

The anti-gay rhetoric has ratched up, with OFFICIAL calls for anti-gay violence. And the recent law was passed just last month, so you are so full of shit.

You are an offensive person, and you need to apologize to EVERY GAY PERSON on DU

[HiPointDem]

142. official calls? link?

[dbackjon]

144. Do you not read the posts

LAWS passed?

Official Journalists calling for gays to have hearts burned out?

Open your eyes.

[HiPointDem]

146. give me a link.

[Pab Sungenis]

147. You want a link?

READ THE OP.

[HiPointDem]

150. you talked about 'official calls,' by which i understand representatives of the state speaking in

the name of the state.

dmitri kisilev is a news anchor & minor media functionary. the comments you refer to were made a year ago, & the fact that he's having to backpedal suggests his comments didn't represent any 'official' position. his comments also appear to have been misrepresented to some degree in western media.

A Russian TV news anchor who serves as the Deputy General Director of Russia’s state television and radio broadcasting company, RTR, is trying to minimize the damage his comments about gay people have recently caused. A video recorded last year, which came to worldwide attention this weekend is causing problems for Dmitri Kisilev.

But now Kisilev is backpedaling after the Russian government has come under international criticism for President Vladimir Putin’s new anti-gay laws, and concerns about the safety of LGBT athletes and allies during the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi.

The Russian state-financed news organization RT reports that in “a recent interview to Izvestia daily Dmitry Kiselev has finally explained what he meant by the controversial phrase.”

He pointed out that the Russian public actually failed to understand that in 2012 he was speaking about legal medical practices in the Russian Federation that unfortunately are still lagging behind internationally-recognized organ donation legislation.

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/im-not-homophobic-i-have-gay-friends-says-russian-tv-anchor-who-called-gay-peoples-hearts-unsuitable-for-life/politics/2013/08/12/73013?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheNewCivilRightsMovement+%28The+New+Civil+Rights+Movement%29

Kiselev referred to the ‘MSM’ policy regulations of America’s Food and Drug Administration (FDA) available for open access on the agency’s official website.

http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/bloodbloodproducts/questionsaboutblood/ucm108186.htm

“Men who have had sex with other men (MSM), at any time since 1977 (the beginning of the AIDS epidemic in the United States) are currently deferred as blood donors. This is because MSM are, as a group, at increased risk for HIV, hepatitis B and certain other infections that can be transmitted by transfusion,” says the statement on FDA official website.

“FDA's deferral policy is based on the documented increased risk of certain transfusion transmissible infections, such as HIV, associated with male-to-male sex and is not based on any judgment concerning the donor's sexual orientation,” the website says.

Dmitry Kiselev pointed out that this regulation applies to any human biological material donation, including post-mortem donation of organs and body tissues.

http://rt.com/news/homophobia-russian-tv-fda-msm-389/

[Smarmie Doofus]

86. Holocaust... maybe not. But cause for world-wide concern, for sure.

World-wide because of the approach of the Olympics. And the opportunity to use leverage that that fact supplies.

And please folks: let's not pit Snowden vs. human rights of LGBT people in Russia.

They're both fundamentally human rights issues that decent human beings should support. And DO.

*SIMULTANEOUSLY*.

Holy cats.

Not. Brain. Surgery.

[Initech]

89. Russia and Uganda both have something in common.

Both have ultra corrupt politicians and preachers brainwashing the masses against homosexuality. It's going to get ugly people.

[liberal_at_heart]

98. Are we allowed to be outraged over the law in Russia and still like Snowden?

We should absolutely be outraged by the law in Russia. It cannot be ignored. However, I have noticed an ugly treand around here. If you don't disagree with one thing that means you support this other thing. I will absolutely join you in your anger over the law in Russia, but I still agree with what Snowden did even if people want to try and tell me that if I support Snowden I somehow support Russia arresting gays.

[Pab Sungenis]

100. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH SNOWDEN.

NOT A THING. The two are not even remotely connected.

Stop diluting the issues.

[liberal_at_heart]

102. I was just clarifying. Because there are people on DU who will do that. I'm glad to hear you are not

one of them. I do join you in your outrage over the law in Russia. My daughter is bisexual and hate to think of countries enacting such laws. I'm not sure what we can do about it. I know the President has talked about cooling relations with Russia. I'm sorry but I am a cynic when it comes to government actions. We didn't support the military takeover in Myanmar but do support it in Egypt. Why would the US cool relations with Russia over their law to arrest gay people? It is more likely Obama is thinking of cooling relations with Russia because of Snowden. I have heard some people are boycotting Russian vodka. That sounds okay with me. I don't know if it will have an impact or not but at lease I can trust the motivation behind individuals boycotting vodka.

[DevonRex]

110. Did you SEE the word Snowden ANYWHERE in the post?

You're just minimizing what Russia has done by changing the subject.

[Smarmie Doofus]

112. Absolutely *yes*. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. I love strawman in the morning

[DevonRex]

111. No. Anyone who watched MSNBC last night couldn't possibly

deny it. Two LGBT activists were on and talked about working in Russia and eastern Europe for the last few years. Putin is deliberately bringing the fascist movement into his fold. They are thugs who have an anti-gay stance and regularly beat up LGBTs. Putin needs to turn the public's anger away from him toward something else so he chose LGBTs. He was always homophobic but the rise of the neo-nazis and their thuggish behavior against gays played right into Putin's hands.

He's been tightening his control steadily, murdering dissenters and liberals. Most are fleeing Russia. Especially since Magnitsky was killed In prison and convicted postmortem after whistle blowing on corruption in Putin's administration.

Going after the Gays is Putin's response. Sound familiar?

[AverageJoe90]

115. I hope not, but I'm afraid it may not be impossible.....

[Zorra]

117. Wow, Pab, judging by this thread, it's way worse than we knew.

[dbackjon]

120. No, you can't

But the Putin-admirers on here will say not, and then claim that Russia is no different than the United States, and that Putin is a hero because of Snowden, and that you are just a paid Obama supporter spreading lies about Russia.

They might even then link to a Putin-controlled website to prove that Russia loves their gays (deep-fried, of course)

[Pab Sungenis]

123. "you are just a paid Obama supporter"

ROTFLMQAO!

Oh, someone calling ME a paid Obama supporter, especially here on DU, would be suffering enough cognitive dissonance to power Spokane for a week.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. How exactly do we hook you up to the grid?

[Pab Sungenis]

139. Not me.

The people who would make the statement.

I really wish we could generate energy from stupidity. America could power the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. It could be a magic/Econ system

In a fictional world. The stoopid become assets.

Yes, I can quickly think of the multiple down sides, and dark aspects.

[stevenleser]

127. What is happening in Russia now should set off warning bells for anyone who has studied genocide

When a state creates new federal laws to stigmatize a vulnerable minority, it's time to take notice.

The fascist thugs at the fringes in Russian society have definitely taken notice. They have taken this as a license to brutalize Russia's LGBT community.

[Pab Sungenis]

132. The real warning bells came

when the state-sanctioned violence started and the state run media began dehumanizing gays. Those are the next steps in the process.

Next the violence will be used as an excuse for a crackdown and eventually segregating gays "for their protection." Just watch.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Not sure if we are on the path to a new genocide yet...

But the signs are not good.

Conditions in Russia for quite a number of the working class are not good.

The only thing I can say about this is that Russia has a long history of no tolerance for gays and other minorities...so while I cannot say it is going there yet...the signs are all but good and the IOC should pull the Olympics, which means essentially canceling them.

[Liberal_in_LA]

145. it's scary how quickly modern society can revert with respect to civil, gay, women's rights

[mstinamotorcity2]

149. you have some people

right here in America that feel just like they do. I get mad when we start pointing our fingers at other Countries when our issues run deep. Matthew Shepard was American.

[muntrv]

154. Even the Nazis didn't arrest Jesse Owens at the 1936 games. That was during the 3rd Reich.

[Bluenorthwest]

157. The Nazis actually announced in advance of the 36 Olympics that their anti homosexual laws

would not be enforced upon participants of the games so the Russians are skipping ahead few steps.

[jazzimov]

159. YES. Obviously, you have no concept

of what the term "HOLOCAUST" means.

[DevonRex]

161. Since gays were slaughtered in it, I'd say he has a "concept."

[Vanje]

162. Kick

[Hekate]

163. Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly -- we have our own Kisilevs right here

Have we managed to rid ourselves of them yet?