If I were me in Russia

[arely staircase]

I would probably be arrested.

I would certainly not be allowed to teach children.

All hail Snowden, the man who seeks the protection of those who think I am a subhuman.

[arely staircase]

3. ? nt

[HarveyDarkey]

14. As do you, homonyms

[panader0]

49. I think you mean "fare", not "fair".

[HarveyDarkey]

51. That's what I was referring to in my comment

[giftedgirl77]

93. Jesus Christ I was asking a simple question & it was 3 am

I didn't expect to get my shit jumped for it. Good god ppl. My bad..

[madinmaryland]

78. I think you are mistaken. They do have fairs in Russia, though they may be called

something else by the Russians.

[pnwmom]

97. (self delete)

[msongs]

2. yeah but you (and your family) would be safe from execution without trial by american drones nt

[DevonRex]

84. You'd just be beaten to death in Butyrka. And convicted postmortem.

And your son would also be killed. But the good news is, they'd waive the 9-year prison sentence they gave you in the Stalinist postmortem kangaroo court. Bad news, they'll do something else disgusting to Russian orphans. With Magnitsky they halted all U.S. adoptions.
http://m.upi.com/story/UPI-1641373563982/?fms=1
Russia convicts dead whistleblower Sergei Magnitsky of fraud - UPI ...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Magnitsky

[MannyGoldstein]

5. The US forced down the plane of an elected head of state

It's pretty clear that there are few places on Earth where Snowden will not be be kidnapped or executed by our government. I think this is about a desire to survive, rather than a love of Russia.

[arely staircase]

7. my brothers and sisters are beaten and jailed in Mr. snowden's land of choice

you want to lecture us about survival?

I am tired of it, Manny

[MannyGoldstein]

8. What choice does he have?

Return to the US to be Manninged?

Perhaps it would be better for all of us to work for an America that doesn't torture, moon due process, ans spy on everyone.

[arely staircase]

9. many more choices than my russian brothers and sisters

fuck snowden. we have fought long and hard in this country, from Stonewall until today. We finally have a president on our side. We are finally making progress and this prick takes the side of the bigots, fuck him.

[MannyGoldstein]

10. Has he endorsed Russia?

Has he endorsed Russia's policies?

Was Russia on the list of countries that Snowden originally applied to for assylum?

[HiPointDem]

30. it's 100% the fault of the us that snowden got stuck in russia.

[arely staircase]

31. he chose russia. nt

[HiPointDem]

38. no. he didn't. you're so obvious.

[cali]

55. indeed. I see people using the homophobia in Russia to advance their argument that

Snowden is bad and I find it despicable.

[CakeGrrl]

42. No one made him break the law. That's on him.

The "He'll be killed or tortured"? An unfounded assumption used as an excuse to keep him from standing trial and going to jail.

Other lawbreakers are in jail. He just wants to avoid it like many others who just want to duck the consequences.

[HiPointDem]

43. it's 100% the fault of the US snowden is stranded in russia. harriet tubman broke the law too,

& ducked the consequences.

oh my, how shocking!!!

[arely staircase]

64. he's harriet tubman now?

Aldrich Ames is probably a better comparison.

[HiPointDem]

83. not about what he is; about what your claim is. hogwash.

[Just Saying]

36. I can't ignore this

It's pretty clear that there are few places on Earth where Snowden will not be be kidnapped or executed by our government.

No, that is not clear. I think most Americans do not take it as a given that our government regularly goes about kidnapping and executing it's citizens. That's pure hyperbole and it's virtually impossible to have constructive discussions about the NSA and spying when statements like this are flung about as fact.

[MannyGoldstein]

48. Who said the US regularly does those things?

But they unequivocally do them on occassion. In Snowden's case, given that we took the astonishing step of forcing down Morales' plane, it's pretty clear that the extrajudicial route is the White House's choice here.

[MADem]

54. +1 nt

[Number23]

91. Not to mention that the "US forced down a head of state's plane" is not corroborated in a single

REPUTABLE source. But of course, Youtube and WSWS and fans of both and other like-minded "sources"{ are all aflame with that meme.

Somehow France and Portugal are now states of the US. But only when something unsavory happens.

[Just Saying]

95. I honestly don't know how to deal with the us vs. them thing around here.

Anything you say and people want to call names and tell you what you think. Or make blanket statements about what's "clear."

I don't even know what went on with that plane but not like we can discuss it here.

[MADem]

52. "The US" did no such thing. That's just a silly thing to say.

The pilot shouldn't have filed multiple flight plans, in an effort to get a refueling stop in Lisbon (where there was labor unrest and they didn't want to accommodate him) because that's how HE wanted to go.

He refused to take NO for an answer, and then tried to bigfoot his way into another stop on his flight path, and people wanted to know WTF was up because there were two flight plans for a single plane.

The plane wasn't flying over the USA, it was flying over European nations. France and Spain and Belgium aren't US territories.

[pnwmom]

98. Oh right. Like Manning was executed. n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

99. He was tortured, according to the UN.nt

[pnwmom]

100. He was also in a military prison, which would never happen to Snowden.

[MannyGoldstein]

101. So torture can only happen in military prison?

Not a supermax?

[pnwmom]

104. What other US leakers have claimed torture? nt

[SidDithers]

6. DU rec...

Sid

[limpyhobbler]

11. Well there is a country worse than Russia on gay rights, if that's what your talking about.

Sorry. But this is a lot worse than snowden running for his life and ending up in Russia. Here's a picture of President Obama smiling and hanging out with the King of Saudi Arabia.

All hail Obama, the man who smiles and takes pictures with someone who actually flogs people for sodomy.

It is unclear how many people have been executed for sodomy. Some of the official news reports on persons convicted of sodomy seem to provide conflicting opinions.

In 2000 the Saudi government reported that it had sentenced nine Saudi men to extensive prison terms with lashing for engaging in cross-dressing and homosexual relations.[3] That same year the government executed three Yemeni male workers for homosexuality and child molestation.[4]

In April 2005, the government convicted over a hundred men of homosexuality, but none were sentenced to be executed. All those men were given prison sentences with flogging because they were at a private party that was either a same-sex wedding ceremony or a birthday party.[5] Yet, not long after a gay foreign couple was sentenced to death for homosexuality and allegedly killing a man who was blackmailing them for homosexuality.[citation needed]

In May 2005, the government arrested 92 men for homosexuality, who were given sentences ranging from fines to prison sentences of several months and lashings. Likewise, on 7 November 2005 Riyadh police raided what the Saudi press called a "beauty contest for gay men" at al-Qatif. What became of the five men arrested for organizing the event, is not known.[6]

In October 2007, British human rights activists protested recent reports that the Saudi government was sending British mosques material urging the killing of gays and subjugation of women.

Persons caught living in the kingdom illegally, are often accused of other crimes, involving illegal drugs, pornography, prostitution and homosexuality. Several such police crackdowns were reported in 2004 – 2005.[7] Another similar raid in 2008, netted Filipino workers arrested on charges of alcohol and gay prostitution.[8] The Arab News article on the arrests stated, "Gay rights are not recognized in the Middle East countries and the publication of any material promoting them is banned".[8]

Only the underground Green Party of Saudi Arabia[importance?] has endorsed the LGBT human rights movement and called for greater public openness about sexual orientation and gender identity issues. No public organization, club or society would be allowed to endorse LGBT human rights or even act as a social network for LGBT people in the kingdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Saudi_LGBT_community

[arely staircase]

12. I am sure he would have gone there had they been willing nt

[MannyGoldstein]

13. How do you feel about Obama's exploits in Saudi Arabia?

Given that Obama was not under threat of torture or death when he went?

Did Snowden apply to Saudi Arabia for asylum?

[arely staircase]

15. oh I shouldn't criticize russia until saudi arabia straightens up?

give me a break.

[MannyGoldstein]

18. Where did I say that you shouldn't criticize Russia?

I said no such thing.

[morningfog]

110. Criticize Russia, they deserve it.

But, trying to impute Russia's bigotry onto Snowden is disingenuous, at best.

[limpyhobbler]

16. Look sorry

Russia is horrible in this regard. There's no defending it.

The US (Obama) trapped Snowden in Russia. They suspended his passport so he could not leave. It seemed like he would rather have gone to South America since he had asylum offers there.

[arely staircase]

17. boo fucking hoo

nobody made him go to Russia.

[AppleBottom]

20. So I'm trying to understand what you're upset about?

Are all people that go to Russia bad? Or only the ones whom get stuck their because their passports have been revoked by an authoritarian government? You know Obama is going to St Petersburg don't you?

[HiPointDem]

33. so apparently it's more about snowden than it is about your brothers & sisters being oppressed.

there's also uganda & the 'kill the gay" law, with anti-gay atmosphere ramped up by associates of none-other-than rick warren, who spoke at obama's inaugural.

the only reason you're talking about russia is because of snowden. & in fact snowden is the whole reason all of this is being talked up in the press.

[Oakenshield]

47. What?!

See, now you're just being immature. So it's okay for the President of the fucking United States, a President you proudly claim is on the side of the LGBT community, to smile and shake the hand of a man who flogs people for sodomy....but it's NOT okay for a rather average person fearing for his safety/freedom to flee to Russia? I have to call bullshit. As a liberal you can and should be better than this.

[arely staircase]

69. when Obama defects to Saudi Arabia we'll talk nt

[HiPointDem]

85. he didn't 'defect,' but your use of cold war terminology is interesting.

[arely staircase]

87. thanks nt

[Enrique]

86. bingo

[AppleBottom]

19. Yeah Russia's policies are all Snowdens fault...

[arely staircase]

21. just his choice

fuck us "propagandizers" of children. we perverts. beat us, arrest us. as long as snowden has comfort and freedom.

sickening

[AppleBottom]

23. Uhhuh? And why are you upset at Snowden for this it is the government persecuting him that revoked

his passport and left him stranded in Russia.

[arely staircase]

24. he picked his side

and it isn't with us.

[limpyhobbler]

25. Are you seriously saying that because Snowden got stranded in Russia he is anti-gay or something?

[arely staircase]

27. maybe he and putin and anita bryant can have lunch

nobody made his right wing ass go to Russia. so the whole "stranded there" thing makes no sense.

[AppleBottom]

32. Wow you're losing it dude, read my post below....

[arely staircase]

35. welcome to DU

where we "propagandizers of children" and are free to speak.

[AppleBottom]

39. You're also free to be listened to whether you like it or not.

So again how is Snowden to blame for Russia's policies?!

And is taking a transfer flight through Russia to avoid government persecution enough to qualify you as a bad, baddie person?

I'm really not understanding the point, you seem very upset?

[arely staircase]

50. you are known by the company you keep

he has chosen to keep the company of violent homophobes.

[AppleBottom]

59. Ahh I see what do you think about Obama hanging out with middle east leaders then.

Or the hundreds of thousands of American tourists that visit Jamaica each year.
Or the wealthy progressive actors that own homes in Dubai?

[arely staircase]

60. has he defected to any of them?

keep trying to change the subject.

[AppleBottom]

61. I notice that you refuse acknowledge the facts

And you'll probably continue to do so to fuel you hate and false outrage.

A. ) Snowden has nothing to do with Russia's LGBT policies.
B.) Snowden got stranded in Russia because the American government revoked his passport.


Unless you can acknowledge these realities there's not much point in going on, I am not going to participate in your propaganda.

[arely staircase]

63. Snowden is free to return to the United States anytime he wants.

In fact there will be a welcoming committee ready to help him exercise his 6th amendment rights. But he doesn't want to because he knows he is guilty of the multiple felonies he has been publicly charged with and the doubtless dozens more that are surely sealed at the moment.

[AppleBottom]

65. Thanks for revealing your false arguement, it is about Snowden and Nothing to do with

Russia's LGBT policies.

The lies are demeaning to you, the false arguments, and the lack of reason is demeaning to you. Don't degrade yourself like this.

[arely staircase]

67. omg you are so right!

[AppleBottom]

26. What does that even mean?!

Is that like the your either with the terrorist or against the terrorist? Do you understand that there was no direct flight to S. America and that Snowden needed to switch flights in a country that did not have an extradition policy with the US.

[HiPointDem]

37. it's not his job to understand. his job is to catapult the anti-snowden talking points.

[AppleBottom]

41. I hope that was a trial balloon and not a TP that they're actually going to run with, it's horrible.

[Katashi_itto]

28. Damn that is warped. Thats like a Freeperville statement

[davidn3600]

34. He didn't have a choice... you wanted him to willingly come back here?

If he comes back here, he would first get the Bradley Manning pre-trial detention treatment. He'd be put in a hole without consul and unable for anyone to talk to him. Then he'd eventually get a trial that the government will claim is fair. But the cards will be completely stacked against him in that Virginia courtroom which is very favorable to the intelligence community.

[Whisp]

62. Snowden considers Russia more human rights orientated than the U.S.

Now how's that for fucked up in the head Snowden? The man is insane. Gripe all you want about the ills of society toward minorities in the U.S. but you have to be nucking futs to say that the U.S. is worse for human rights than Russia is.

That line alone mouthed by the Grate Snow should make the bells ring and flags stand up. Who is behind him and his idiotcy, what does this sound like if you didn't know it was Snowden saying it? It sounds like Drown in the Bathtubber fucking a Pauler is what it sounds like, and the both really enjoying it.

[HardTimes99]

68. Have you compared incarceration rates between the RF and the US? I think you might

be surprised which country imprisons a higher percentage of its populace. (Hint: it isn't the Russian Federation.)

[Whisp]

77. That is a very excellent point. Why aren't there as many threads on that here as on Snowden

and the precious rights he should have as a felon?

You answer me that. Black people have been surveilled and 'disappeared' for real, have been incarcerated ridiculously more for lesser or same offenses as whites.

Why aren't there as many Hair on Fire threads on this?

I could probably give you a few guesses but you won't like them.

[AppleBottom]

70. Where does Snowden make that statement? Either you have proof or that's a LIE.

Decent human beings should feel shame when they lie.

[Whisp]

72. Pathetic. Read, Bottom, read:

Snowden: Russia first to stand against human rights violations
Officials are criticizing Edward Snowden for calling Russia and other countries that have offered him asylum as nations that stand against human rights violations. Slate’s Michael Yglesias and the panel give their perspective on MSNBC’s NOW with Alex Wagner.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/now/52480391#52480391

[AppleBottom]

75. Oh for goodnes sakes. Applauding Russia's decision to grant him the right of asylum

Which is a human right. Is not approving of Russia's record on other human rights issues.

[Whisp]

76. Whatever you say, Apple...

iBored.

[hrmjustin]

88. No it is not but it is interesting he went to a place that is seeking to curb civil rights.

[Swagman]

29. if I lived in the USA the government would lie to me and

send me to a war to kill innocent people who had never harmed me.

If I protested against the sharks of Wall Street I would probably be arrested...etc etc

[bravenak]

40. I'd still be at the airport.

Eating Cinnabon looking for the el pollo loco.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

44. Aren't you you all the time?

[Cha]

45. All hail st snowden .. the man who is so confused he thinks Russia is the "FIRST".. I tell ya

"These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations."

http://wikileaks.org/Statement-by-Edward-Snowden-to.html

Or is he "confused" like when he was whining about Pres Obama revoking his passport .. like he thought he'd get special consideration.. 'cause he's so special and all.

Dustin Lance Black who produced "Milk" is speaking out for Gays in Russia, arely..

"Dustin Lance Black Urges Hollywood to Confront Russia's Anti-Gay Laws'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023430113

This is Dustin Lance Black..

On February 22, 2009, Black won the Oscar for Best Original Screenplay for Milk at the 81st Academy Awards. He wore a White Knot to the ceremony as a symbol of solidarity with the marriage equality movement.[14] In his acceptance speech at the Oscar ceremony, he said:

“ ... When I was thirteen years old my beautiful mother and my father moved me from a conservative Mormon home in San Antonio, Texas to California and I heard the story of Harvey Milk and it gave me hope. It gave me the hope to live my life, it gave me the hope to one day I could live my life openly as who I am, and that maybe even I could fall in love and one day get married...'
"I want to thank my mom, who has always loved me for who I am even when there was pressure not to...'

"But most of all, if Harvey had not been taken from us 30 years ago, I think he would want me to say to all of the gay and lesbian kids out there tonight who have been told that they are less than by their churches, or by the government, or by their families, that you are beautiful, wonderful creatures of value, and that no matter what anyone tells you, God does love you and that very soon I promise you, you will have equal rights federally across this great nation of ours.'

"Thank you, and thank you God for giving us Harvey Milk."[6][15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dustin_Lance_Black

arely

[arely staircase]

105. thanks cha nt

[iamthebandfanman]

46. how dare you!

everyone knows Russia is the free-est greatest country of all time!

I mean, they aren't all secretive about their misdoings and hateful actions.. its right out in the open for everyone to see

apparently people love honesty more than they do the knowledge of the history of Russia and its current political state of being (fascist corporatists just like the Chinese are now) and are willing to forgive any current or past brutal actions because it fits whatever political statement they are currently trying to make about our government.


we have A LOT of problems here at home, that's without a doubt.. but to say Russia or about 50% of other nations are 'more free' or a better place to live.. is just well.. nuts.

[cali]

53. I'm sorry, but this is getting ridiculous.

Snowden didn't seek out protection from people who are homophobic. He sought asylum. And he took it where he could get it. Russia is no more completely defined by homophobia than the U.S. is defined as the most mad dog military power in the world, starting one fucking war after another; bombing the shit out of any country it feels like.

[arely staircase]

56. ok, excuse me. asylum.

not protection. asylum.

[cali]

57. Yes. And not by any means his first choice.

Look, want to make the claim that his fleeing after revealing/whistle blowing/ betraying, was an act of cowardice? There's an argument to be made. I don't agree with it, but it's a valid argument. Want to claim that Snowden is endorsing Russia's homophobia? that's just bullshit of the worst kind. And it's an "argument" with jackshit to back it up. It's just silly.

[Sheepshank]

58. Snowden made all sorts of decisions

First there was the theft of privileged materials and information, then there was the public and private distribution and sharing of the materials he stole. This is not whistle blowing. THEN Snowden decides that big old bad USA needs to be outed to the world. THE USA that he doesn't like, the USA that harms it's citizens, the USA that will kill him and torture him. He turns the USA into a caricature of Mother Russia. Then he rests gently in the arms of the nation he says the USA is like. The OP has made the point over and over, Snowden made the choice after he crapped all over the nation that is NOT what he portrays it to be. Snowden decided he would flee and seek asylum while third wayers on DU carry only the lie that if he were here he would be tortured and killed....Snowden is a self serving hypocrite of the highest order. I hope he finds no comfort in the life he has chosen. Likely, it will not be too long before he realizes the brutality of what a real oppressive government is like. I wonder how 'trusted' he will be there?

[cali]

82. funny how every whistle blower from Ellsberg to Tamm considers Snowden a whistle blower

that you don't hardly has the same weight.

I don't think Snowden would be killed here. depending on what you regard as torture, I think it's possible that he would be tortured/mistreated in much the same way Manning was.

And sorry, but a country that launches wars under false pretexts, that murders people with drones, that imprisons more people than any other country on earth, that conducts massive mass surveillance, is hardly some paragon of justice.


duh.

[Sheepshank]

96. He's also no patriot

but since I'm not the only one with a difference of opinions from your opinion, I feel perfectly fine not camping with the "Snowden is a hero" crowd.

[cali]

109. I'll defer on that one. I don't care much if he's a patriot or the devil

he's a whistle blower

[HardTimes99]

66. Did you post one single thread about homophobia in the Russian Federation BEFORE

the Snowden asylum story broke?

If so, can you please post link(s)?

If not, I won't accuse you of rank hypocrisy, but merely exploitative opportunism, i.e., "I'll raise the issue of homophobia in the RF as a way to smear further Snowden and not because I really give a shit about homophobia in the RF."

That's a pretty underhanded passive-aggressive way to state a position about Snowden.

[stevenleser]

94. That would be hard since the latest and most horrific law was passed a week after Snowden's

information was leaked (actually a little more than a week) and it was attributed to him.

On 11 June 2013 State Duma adopted a federal law banning "homosexual propaganda". Snowdens revelations came out in late May.

[Cha]

106. Poor widdle snowden. Snowden smears himself.

[LittleBlue]

71. If your alternative was to spend life in solitary confinement

would you live there?

Simple question


It's one the keyboard warriors avoid, but the truth is that they'd piss themselves at the thought of Bradley Manning's fate and would seek safety in Russia at all costs.

Internet tough guys are all talk.

[arely staircase]

73. red herring nt

[LittleBlue]

74. Not at all

Since that is literally Snowden's alternative: life in solitary or life in Russia.

The macho men like yourself would be terrified at the thought of such a fate, yet you have no problem making illogical statements like "If I were me in Russia". It isn't your ass in Russia, that's why you so easily dismiss the consequences. If you had to face the same consequences, it wouldn't be as simple as a half-assed remark on DU.

Anyone can be brave when someone else is facing the consequences. No different than chickenhawks.

[arely staircase]

90. Since when does he face life in prison (and solitary at that)?

And yes, I am in a much less stressful situation than him, not having committed espionage and all.

[hrmjustin]

79. That is a realistic point. He really had no choice in the end if he wanted freedom, but

it is interesting that a man who claims to care about personal freedoms has to go to countries with horrible civil rights records to remain free.

[nomorenomore08]

92. I'm convinced that there pretty much are no "good guys" here. Not Snowden, not Obama,

and damn sure not Putin.

[The Link]

80. Do you think its their religion that causes their disgusting attitude toward gays?

[hrmjustin]

81. Unfortunately in many cases yes.

[Scurrilous]

89. It is indeed heroic of him to toady to Russian bigots.

[Riftaxe]

102. I am always me in Russia

and i do damned well hate the place. But to visit people near it, you require Russian planes to get there, after all a dissident is one who disagrees with the power in charge.


No it is hardly a hold over from the 80's, they were much nicer back then..

[arely staircase]

112. I would have to pretend to be someone else.

Not as in change my name, but as in pretend I'm something I'm not.

[Scootaloo]

103. Interesting argument

So, if by his presence in Russia, Snowden supports Russia's actions against the LGBT people there...

then by this logic...

By your presence in Texas, you are an advocate for electrocuting the mentally handicapped. Or anyone at all, for that matter, since your state has the highest prisoner execution rate in the country.

All hail arely staircase, state-murder advocate and eugenicist!

...No, I don't actually believe that about you Arely, but you see what a spurious argument it is, surely.

[darkangel218]

107. I doubt Russia was his choice.

He would have gone to South or Central America if given the possibility.

[redgreenandblue]

108. I'm guessing you'd hate Russia and Snowden even if Russia was progressive on gay rights. nt

[morningfog]

111. No one is asking you to "hail" Snowden.

Snowden was not seeking the protection of Russia, he was seeking protection from the US. The US forced him to be trapped in Russia, where he had no intention of staying, but only passing through.

Fuck Russia and their bigotry. They should be scorned for their hate. But, this OP is flame bait and misses the mark.

[snooper2]

113. If I were me in Texas

Me thinks I would grab a cold drink because it is fucking HOT!