Dangeroulsy Naive, or Liar(s) -- SnowGlen.

[Whisp]

http://joshuafoust.com/dangerously-naive-or-a-liar/
16 Jul 2013 -
Joshua Foust
Freelance Journalist


NSA leaker Edward Snowden, in an email to long-retired Republican libertarian Senator Gordon Humphreys:

Though reporters and officials may never believe it, I have not provided any information that would harm our people – agent or not – and I have no intention to do so.

Further, no intelligence service – not even our own – has the capacity to compromise the secrets I continue to protect. While it has not been reported in the media, one of my specializations was to teach our people at DIA how to keep such information from being compromised even in the highest threat counter-intelligence environments (i.e. China).

You may rest easy knowing I cannot be coerced into revealing that information, even under torture.

Once you’re done giggling about his claimed immunity to torture — I mean, right? — the bit about information “that would harm our people – agent or not” is worth exploring. When Snowden leaked a trove of documents to the German newspaper Der Spiegel, the reporters noted something worrying:

SPIEGEL has decided not to publish details it has seen about secret operations that could endanger the lives of NSA workers. Nor is it publishing the related internal code words. However, this does not apply to information about the general surveillance of communications. They don’t endanger any human lives — they simply describe a system whose dimensions go beyond the imaginable.

Reading that closely, we see that Snowden claims he’s not provided damaging information, while Der Spiegel says he most certainly had but they’re trying to release only what they think probably won’t be damaging. So either Snowden is either lying about the nature of the data he stole or he is dangerously naïve, since a newspaper clearly aghast at those documents nevertheless chose not to publish some. Last month, according to his spokesman/defense lawyer/journalist Glenn Greenwald, the story was slightly different:

[Whisp]

1. Further on in that piece is reference to a term called Graymail.

interesting:

Graymail
This article is about the threat of revelation of secrets. For solicited bulk email, see Graymail (email). For other uses, see Graymail (disambiguation).

Graymail is the threatened revelation of state secrets in order to manipulate legal proceedings. It is distinct from blackmail, which may include threats of revelation against, and manipulation of, any private individual. Graymail is used as a defense tactic, forcing the government to drop a case to avoid revealing national secrets.

Graymail can occur in two ways:

To straightforwardly blackmail the government, forcing them to drop the case using the threat that if the trial proceeds the defendant will reveal classified information he or she already knows.
To request use of classified material, e.g. as evidence, in the trial. The defendant speculates that the government will be unwilling to make the material fully available to the case, and that this will raise the possibility, in the eyes of the judge or jury, that the unreleased material might clear the defendant, making it difficult to prove guilt.[1]

In the United States, the Classified Information Procedures Act of 1980, also known as the Graymail Law, was designed to counter the second tactic above by allowing judges to review classified material in secret, so that the prosecution can proceed without fear of publicly disclosing sensitive intelligence.[2]

[msanthrope]

7. Manning tried that in his defense, and the judge shut it down pretty quickly. I think

it will work against him, and should--mind you--at sentencing.

[villager]

2. Yes, let's all giggle about torture!

I mean why not, since we're busy uncritically defending the MIC!

[Whisp]

3. I agree, Glenn and Snow are torturing us

with their clown party.

[villager]

6. I agree, you would be more bothered by that than by actual torture

Kind of "clown ethics."

Except, that's disparaging to clowns.

[riqster]

30. Clowns, you say?

http://m.

&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DB5PHaLmIyMc

[Whisp]

35. IT

This is a clown from King's book/movie, IT.
I can't stand clowns from then on. brrrrr.

[riqster]

45. Tim Curry plays great odd characters.

[msanthrope]

9. Apart for Jason Bourne-inspired fantasies, what 'torture' is Snowden facing from the

US? Loss of his computer? Federal detention?

[villager]

11. Because the U.S. would never, ever torture anyone! It's hilarious, I tell ya!

Regular knee-slapping stuff!

[msanthrope]

12. The idea that Snowden would be 'tortured' by the US *is* laughable.

Having his computer taken away isn't torture.

[villager]

25. You keep right on laughing about the notion of "torture!" The yucks are tremendous!

[msanthrope]

28. I am laughing at Mr. Snowden and his fantastical notions--I mean, who puts on a red hood

to go on the Internet?

He is deeply worried about being spied on. He lines the door of his hotel room with pillows to prevent eavesdropping. He puts a large red hood over his head and laptop when entering his passwords to prevent any hidden cameras from detecting them.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance

[villager]

29. ...because no one would ever spy on anyone's internet activity!

Another riotous notion!

[msanthrope]

31. And a red hood is gonna solve that? nt

[villager]

33. No -- the MIC you so vigorously defend isn't so easily stymied.

Though I suppose that gets you giggling, too.

[msanthrope]

40. Yes--because GIGGLING at Snowden is support of the MIC!! Wait, I thought it wasn't about him? nt

[villager]

46. And yet, that's who this whole thread -- and your responses! -- are about!

But yes, let's talk about reining in the MIC instead!

Please proceed!

[msanthrope]

49. Reining in the MIC isn't going to happen through a guy in a red hood. That's a super hero shortcut

that isn't going to work in reality.

Long term reigning in the MIC means you have to stop focusing on the Executive Branch, and push Congress to do their jobs--they control statute making and budget. They are the key to the MIC. Cut off the funding, and the cover, and then you change the MIC.

[villager]

51. So it doesn't matter who is in the Executive Branch, then

..as far as abuses of MIC power?

[msanthrope]

52. Of course it does....but the Executive doesn't make the budget, and doesn't create law. Article 2

power is limited, precisely so that we would not face a dictatorship.

[villager]

53. And how has the Executive been "more limited" in recent administrations?

And how will this administration specifically change that?

[msanthrope]

54. This goes back to the Constitution--the Executive is limited because the Executive

cannot make statute. The Executive cannot make a budget. The Executive's ability to rule by EO is limited by the courts.

As for this administration, be specific. Some argue that the EPA is an overreach of Executive authority.

[villager]

55. Well if the Constitution says it, it must always be true! Why those silly worries about Bush,

Cheney, Nixon, et al?

We were just Chicken Littles to have ever been alarmed!

[msanthrope]

56. I'm sure posting about Bush on the Internet did a lot. nt

[villager]

57. Does about as much as claiming we have nothing to worry about. nt

[bravenak]

32. Sounds like Joseph smith and the magic hat.

http://www.mrm.org/translation

[tblue]

62. Supermax, being naked and watched in a cell.

You may not see it, but it took a lot of guts to risk being treated like Bradley Manning. A lot more than I have or you probably.

[Rex]

74. Unlike Manning, Snowden is considered a traitor

and I think that has a different legal standing then just a simple fugitive on the run.

[Rex]

73. Maybe a side trip to Syria.

Pretending that he could not be spirited away to a third world country for interrogation is being a bit naive imo. They can to a lot to people considered traitors. No trial needed.

[hughee99]

4. You can't trust people who lie to you, even if they're trying to give you the least untruthful

answer possible.

[bemildred]

5. Yep, he is such a fool, how did he ever manage to pants the NSA in public like this?

[ljm2002]

17. ^^^This^^^ n/t

[snooper2]

20. because apparently the NSA got a little lax in the contractors they use

I'm sure they have that problem taken care of though

[bemildred]

23. Using contractors is already quite lax. Naive, even stupid. nt

[snooper2]

24. I would tend to agree--

I can see in some cases where a vendor may come in to setup equipment in one of their labs for example-

But yeah, letting random contractors have access to what Snowy got his hands on is asinine. Anybody with any level of clearance should be a NSA employee, with a chip embedded under the third rib

[bemildred]

27. Judgement is called for, lots of it, severe and stringent judgement, a bias towards doing NOTHING.

That is what annoys me about these arrogant fools like Clapper and Hayden, empire builders, compliant tools that will say anything, anything at all, and the "more is better" approach. More is better just leads to exposure and being discredited, as we can now easily see.

[uponit7771]

36. +1

[tblue]

58. It will always be done by contractors.

That's what this is. I hope people start to understand, it's not even civil servants doing this. It's Booz Allen and God knows who else.

[bemildred]

64. Right, on this scale, they need lots of "analysts".

And that is just great because it's more money for their empire.

But that is not how you keep secrets. That's what you do in commercial above the ground enterprises, expand, scale up.

That's why I think these guys are confused. And that's why I think Putin looks amused. They already did "Total Information Awareness" there in the USSR, and they know where that goes, it's much too overt, you lose your legitimacy. We used to brag at them about the virtues of our open society, back in the day, I remember, I was there. Now he is watching us make their old mistake.

The best way to secure a government is for it to govern well.

[tblue]

59. Yeah. The dummy.

[bemildred]

63. Must be another one of them "crazed loners".

I want to know when somebody, ANYBODY, besides Snowden, is going to be called onto the carpet IN PUBLIC about this folly.

[Th1onein]

8. Why are you bothering posting this?

After all, isn't this all OLD news, and we've been spied on for decades, so everything is A-Okay?

And, it's legal, too, right?

[grasswire]

13. and from an obscure blogger, too...

...gotta wonder how they find this flotsam.

[msanthrope]

19. A guy who writes on intelligence for Reuters, the Atlantic, the NYT, is obscure to you?

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/author/foustj/

You might want to read up on his reporting from Afghanistan....

http://registan.net/

There's a reason Mr. Greenwald spends so much time trying to engage with this guy.

[Capt. Obvious]

26. Ctrl + C and Ctrl + V

You're welcome.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

68. You might want to read up on his lobbying on behalf of torture states and the defense industry.

Or you might not.

[msanthrope]

70. I'm sure you have a cite? nt

[ProSense]

10. "The U.S. government should be on your knees every day praying that nothing happens to Snowden..."

Greenwald:

The U.S. government should be on your knees every day praying that nothing happens to Snowden, because if something happens, all information will be revealed and that would be their worst nightmare.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023244823

[msanthrope]

16. GG tried that type of bravado against Patrick Fitzgerald when he was representing Matt Hale--and it

ended with Glenn turning over information on his client to the FBI.

So I'm not exactly quaking in my boots--ya' know? When the chips are down, Glenn's gonna do to Snowden what he did with Matt Hale--cooperate with the feds.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-03-09-hale_x.htm

[uponit7771]

37. freakin wow!!!

[msanthrope]

42. Oh yeah--anybody who thinks GG isn't going to screw over Snowden the way he screwed over Matt

Hale (also managed to make a serious mistake in a civil case for him) is deluding themselves.

Give GG enough time, and enough rope, and he was take care of himself.

[uponit7771]

65. GG is a slime ball, wtf...sounds like the "sell your soul" type of guy

[Iliyah]

61. ProSense, when Greenwald said that my heart dropped

because in my opinion he just put a target sign on Snowden which any country or any group could do harm to him and of course the USA would be blamed no matter what.

[CakeGrrl]

67. So one of them is LYING

And based on the weird movie-dialogue bravado in Snowden's words, those who are so starry-eyed impressed with him are dangerously gullible.

[Whisp]

14. A Catalogue of Journalistic Malfeasance

https://medium.com/state-of-play/bb27db32ae38

Exaggerations and misreporting.

Two weeks ago, when the Guardian first leaked a Verizon court order to hand over its call metadata, a national debate began about privacy and security. Since then those leaks have continued, and they still drive the conversation. But much of that initial reporting turned out to be wrong — so much, in fact, that I’m starting to wonder if it’s approaching journalistic malfeasance.

...

So what’s the solution? For one, stop assuming the first version of the “facts” is correct. So much of the initial round of NSA reporting has turned out to be false or misleading that it’s a wonder such misreporting hasn’t become its own scandal. The speed with which false information propagates in the public (and worse, in commentaries) is dismaying to those of us who’d prefer public debates be based in fact rather than fiction.

--- aka, The Whisper Game.

[Tarheel_Dem]

72. "stop assuming the first version of the “facts” is correct". Good advice, but outrage junkies can't

help themselves.

[AZ Progressive]

15. More Propaganda from the NSA Surveillance Lovers

[Whisp]

21. I'll help you out and give you the proper definiton of Propaganda:

prop·a·gan·da
/ˌpräpəˈgandə/
Noun

1. Information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
2. The dissemination of such information as a political strategy.

Synonyms
publicity - propagation

---
1. the biased and misleading information was put out by Snowden and Greenwald. Many of their accusations and storytelling have been put down as misleading or out and out lying. Who is using what for their promotion of a particular political cause or point of view? Both Snowden and Greenwald are on record to have said things Libertarians of the Fuck Ron Paul types spout out of their snouts.

2. much the same as 1. A political strategy, and one that many RWers like the Kochs would be happy to contribute to such a cause (tear down the administration) and which Greenwald has made it particularly easy for these types to do with his 'donate to me and the freedom of the world' ploy to harvest funds.

[villager]

47. It's kind of like self-flagellation on their parts: "Spy on me! Spy on me! I deserve it!"

"We all deserve it!"

Because, I suppose, we all have sinned?

[bvar22]

50. You would think that at some point,

.....embarrassment, or a sense of shame at being wrong so often, would prevent them from going farther with this.

[tblue]

60. There's every reason to believe the NSA is here defending itself

in the name of a User. At least that would make sense.

[Capt. Obvious]

18. "Freelance Journalist"

There's a reason for that.

[msanthrope]

22. Good enough for PBS, the BBC, Reuters, the Atlantic, plus having his own

news services out of Southeast Asia.....there's a reason Mr. Greenwald spends so much time going back and forth with this guy.

http://registan.net/

[great white snark]

38. I love them attacking the messenger.

A permanent record of their rampant hypocrisy...and anything "permanent" is especially excrutiating to the crowd.

[Capt. Obvious]

39. *snort*

[msanthrope]

44. I do, too. Especially when the messenger in this case is a guy who had repeatedly gotten GG

into a tizz.

[uponit7771]

34. ****DER SPIEGEL IS WORKING WITH THE NSA!!!**** or...that's what SnowGlen said so it must

...be true /sarcasm <--- cause that's needed around here

[Tarheel_Dem]

41. Naive or not, they work for Putin now, and good luck with that!

[CakeGrrl]

43. WTF? Does he know the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique too?

I thought Greenwald boasted that they had stuff to take all sorts of entities down. So who's lying?

Snowden seems to like spy movie-speak. And his adoring throng eats it up.

Oh, I almost forgot:

How dare you attack these brave heroes! Your desperate deflection from the growing Surveillance State is pathetic.

[Puzzledtraveller]

48. I highly suggest you see this!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

66. Why are you posting material from a man who shills for Khazakstan's torture regime?

Do you admire this piece of shit? I sure don't. I don't like apologists for torture. I don't like shills for the US "defense" industry. I don't like war profiteers. And I damn sure don't trust their words. It's surprising that you do.

[Whisp]

71. and do you believe in the man, GG, who supported/s Citizen's United

and has some pretty shitty views about guns and where you should be allowed to carry them - like at political rallies?

He ain't such a sweet peach either, is he?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. So, release it all and let us decide.

Whenever the people are well informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights. Thomas Jefferson