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WillyT

(72,631 posts)
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 06:32 PM Aug 2013

NSA, DEA, IRS Lie About Fact That Americans Are Routinely Spied On By Our Government: Time For A...

NSA, DEA, IRS Lie About Fact That Americans Are Routinely Spied On By Our Government: Time For A Special Prosecutor
By Jennifer Stisa Granick and Christopher Jon Sprigman - Forbes
8/14/2013 @ 2:54PM

<snip>

It seems that every day brings a new revelation about the scope of the NSA’s heretofore secret warrantless mass surveillance programs. And as we learn more, the picture becomes increasingly alarming. Last week we discovered that the NSA shares information with a division of the Drug Enforcement Agency called the Special Operations Division (SOD). The DEA uses the information in drug investigations. But it also gives NSA data out to other agencies – in particular, the Internal Revenue Service, which, as you might imagine, is always looking for information on tax cheats.

The Obama Administration repeatedly has assured us that the NSA does not collect the private information of ordinary Americans. Those statements simply are not true. We now know that the agency regularly intercepts and inspects Americans’ phone calls, emails, and other communications, and it shares this information with other federal agencies that use it to investigate drug trafficking and tax evasion. Worse, DEA and IRS agents are told to lie to judges and defense attorneys about their use of NSA data, and about the very existence of the SOD, and to make up stories about how these investigations started so that no one will know information is coming from the NSA’s top secret surveillance programs.

“Now, wait a minute,” you might be saying. “How does a foreign intelligence agency which supposedly is looking for terrorists and only targets non-U.S. persons get ahold of information useful in IRS investigations of American tax cheats?” To answer that question, let’s review this week’s revelations.

Back in 2005, several media outlets reported that NSA has direct access to the stream of communications data, carried over fiber optic cables that connect central telephone switching facilities in the U.S. with one another and with networks in foreign countries. Reports suggested that the NSA had installed equipment referred to as “splitter cabinets” at main phone company offices, where they make a copy of all data traveling on the fiber optic cable and route it into a secret room where computers scan through the information – searching for names and terms that are themselves secret — as it goes by. For years, the federal government refused to comment on these reports. But on August 8, an unnamed senior administration official confirmed this practice to the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/08/us/broader-sifting-of-data-abroad-is-seen-by-nsa.html?ref=global-home

We also learned that the NSA can grab information off these fiber optic cables in near real time using a tool called XKeyscore (XKS). Searching the firehose of Internet and telephone data as it flows takes an immense amount of computing power. The XKS system dumps a portion of the communications information NSA snatches into a truly immense local storage “cache.” This cache can keep network information for a few days, depending on the amount of traffic. This gives the NSA’s computers time to search through what otherwise would be an unmanageable torrent of emails, phone calls, chats, social network posts, and other communications. And importantly, XKS searches do not involve just communications “metadata”. The XKS system searches the contents of our Internet and telephone communications. Which is directly at odds with repeated Administration statements suggesting that NSA mass surveillance was limited to metadata.

To seize and search through all of this information without a warrant, the agency must...

<snip>

More: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennifergranick/2013/08/14/nsa-dea-irs-lie-about-fact-that-americans-are-routinely-spied-on-by-our-government-time-for-a-special-prosecutor-2/

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NSA, DEA, IRS Lie About Fact That Americans Are Routinely Spied On By Our Government: Time For A... (Original Post) WillyT Aug 2013 OP
I know exactly who should be appointed to investigate... burnodo Aug 2013 #1
Oliver North? Scotter Libby? Dick-head Cheney? nm rhett o rick Aug 2013 #4
ya, like that's gonna happen... FirstLight Aug 2013 #2
Its an authoritarian wet dream. Warren DeMontague Aug 2013 #3
You're apt to be alerted on. The authoritarians here dont like to be called authoritarians. nm rhett o rick Aug 2013 #6
You will note I did not include Warren DeMontague Aug 2013 #7
I'm stunned...I thought for sure that must be your title instead of Forbes. dkf Aug 2013 #5
I Don't Write 'Em... I Just Report 'Em... WillyT Aug 2013 #8
Well you couldn't be more on target than that anyway! dkf Aug 2013 #9
Does Obama still stand by his stmt there's no spying? leftstreet Aug 2013 #10
There is a fine line between rhetoric and lying. We would like to know his rhett o rick Aug 2013 #11
Yes... Apparently Plain English Doesn't Do It There Days... WillyT Aug 2013 #13
But, but no where does it mention meta-data, therefore it's fair game. nm rhett o rick Aug 2013 #15
Its not YOUR persons, houses, papers or effects. phleshdef Aug 2013 #16
Evidently Google is now claiming that the contents of Gmail have no expectation of privacy Fumesucker Aug 2013 #17
I'd say most of them have clauses in their terms of service that would allow them to make... phleshdef Aug 2013 #20
Dude... When Was The Last Time You, Or Anyone Of Us, Actually Read The TOS We Agreed To ??? WillyT Aug 2013 #18
Yea, I don't read that stuff. phleshdef Aug 2013 #19
Hell they don't even read them here.......... Historic NY Aug 2013 #26
And, if all the ISPs are subject to NSA demands, etc., what option do consumers have? spooky3 Aug 2013 #35
Lets see what Joe Biden said about the government mining of metadata in 2006: bvar22 Aug 2013 #45
Why don't you try reading what I said and THEN respond? phleshdef Aug 2013 #49
Oh come on, thats not fair DJ13 Aug 2013 #52
Kick And Recommend cantbeserious Aug 2013 #12
kick burnodo Aug 2013 #14
That Forbes Article is Fantastic Read...and Here's a Snip: KoKo Aug 2013 #21
+1000000000 woo me with science Aug 2013 #22
+1 leftstreet Aug 2013 #24
Poindexter their asses n/t hootinholler Aug 2013 #41
Yes, indeed! DeSwiss Aug 2013 #23
this stuff will never stop... dtom67 Aug 2013 #25
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ,,,,,,,,,,,, /nt Cryptoad Aug 2013 #27
You're New... Right ??? WillyT Aug 2013 #28
Hardly /nt Cryptoad Aug 2013 #31
Ok... WillyT Aug 2013 #37
Ohhhhhh Cryptoad Aug 2013 #43
Resurrection Alert! eom 99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #38
huh? /nt Cryptoad Aug 2013 #44
What was/is your "other" DU Screen name? bvar22 Aug 2013 #46
Reading is a critical skill.... Cryptoad Aug 2013 #48
Aaah, what would the first author know about these matters? spooky3 Aug 2013 #29
When are they Cryptoad Aug 2013 #32
You can bet that the authors would be sued if what they reported were groundless. spooky3 Aug 2013 #34
That's what a special prosecutor's job is. Thanks for agreeing with the OP (nt) muriel_volestrangler Aug 2013 #50
Fitzmas 2.2.31.f IDemo Aug 2013 #30
Is the Cryptoad Aug 2013 #33
It would be nice if you would discuss the article instead of snarking thru the thread. nt Mojorabbit Aug 2013 #40
The original thread Cryptoad Aug 2013 #42
K&R eom 99th_Monkey Aug 2013 #36
K and R nt Mojorabbit Aug 2013 #39
ROFL snooper2 Aug 2013 #47
Fiber Optic Products > Splitter Cabinets muriel_volestrangler Aug 2013 #51
:) snooper2 Aug 2013 #53
The main point is that the whistleblower describes the NSA equipment muriel_volestrangler Aug 2013 #54
The whistleblower doesn't really know what he is talking about snooper2 Aug 2013 #55
Why do you say "it doesn't work like that" and then proceed to describe it working like that? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2013 #56
because when he says a "portion", if he knew he wouldn't use that word snooper2 Aug 2013 #57
Why do you think the word 'portion' is not suitable? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2013 #58
Well Done! bvar22 Aug 2013 #59
K & R AzDar Aug 2013 #60

FirstLight

(15,771 posts)
2. ya, like that's gonna happen...
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 06:36 PM
Aug 2013

I have very little comfort that we as a country can get our rights back...and nobody, not the UN, or any other country is gonna make it so. we are screwn.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
3. Its an authoritarian wet dream.
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 06:37 PM
Aug 2013

And the common thread with the knee-jerk defenders is, they lurrrrv them some authoritarianism.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
6. You're apt to be alerted on. The authoritarians here dont like to be called authoritarians. nm
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 06:39 PM
Aug 2013
 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
9. Well you couldn't be more on target than that anyway!
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 06:47 PM
Aug 2013

Forbes...wow.

This is really the most egregious thing we've heard so far. I am surprised there isn't more discussion of this particular use and more investigation into where exactly this shared data originates from. I am guessing they will **say** this is different from data acquired through prism when they try to BS us. No hiding behind national security though.

leftstreet

(40,667 posts)
10. Does Obama still stand by his stmt there's no spying?
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 06:50 PM
Aug 2013
Obama To Leno: 'There Is No Spying On Americans'

by Greg Henderson
August 07, 201312:44 AM


President Obama defended the US government's surveillance program, telling NBC's Jay Leno on Tuesday that: "There is no spying on Americans."

"We don't have a domestic spying program," Obama said on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. "What we do have is some mechanisms that can track a phone number or an email address that is connected to a terrorist attack. ... That information is useful."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/08/06/209692380/obama-to-leno-there-is-no-spying-on-americans


Has he corrected this?
 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
11. There is a fine line between rhetoric and lying. We would like to know his
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 07:08 PM
Aug 2013

definition of spying.

"What we do have is some mechanisms that can track a phone number or an email address that is connected to a terrorist attack. ... That information is useful." This is probably a true statement but the implication that it's all we have is clearly misleading.

We need an app that can decode the rhetoric.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
13. Yes... Apparently Plain English Doesn't Do It There Days...
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 07:24 PM
Aug 2013
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Just sayin...




 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
16. Its not YOUR persons, houses, papers or effects.
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 07:59 PM
Aug 2013

Metadata, which basically amounts to business records, is the property of AT&T or Google or Verizon, etc. I'd bet if you were to check the terms of service and privacy statements with your own providers of communications services, 9.9 times out of 10, there will even be a clause in there somewhere that states as much and that you agreed to whenever you signed up for said service.

I believe the NSA programs are morally overstepping their bounds and need to be scaled back. But lets be honest about the problem and not try to turn it into something its not.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
17. Evidently Google is now claiming that the contents of Gmail have no expectation of privacy
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:03 PM
Aug 2013

How soon before the rest of the online services follow their lead, assuming of course that they already haven't?



 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
20. I'd say most of them have clauses in their terms of service that would allow them to make...
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:10 PM
Aug 2013

...the same argument. A lot of us who have been using the internet since the mid 90s caught onto this early. I'd never use the internet to communicate something that I was worried about not remaining private.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
18. Dude... When Was The Last Time You, Or Anyone Of Us, Actually Read The TOS We Agreed To ???
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:05 PM
Aug 2013

Just like my credit cards... NEVER.

On the hopeful side.. I am NOW !!!

Thank you Edward Snowden.




 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
19. Yea, I don't read that stuff.
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:08 PM
Aug 2013

But that doesn't change the fact that you agree to whats in there when you sign up for something. That's one of the reasons that the NSA programs, at least based on verifiable facts, are completely legal. Now just because something is legal doesn't mean it should be done. But that's the situation as is.

spooky3

(38,632 posts)
35. And, if all the ISPs are subject to NSA demands, etc., what option do consumers have?
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:59 PM
Aug 2013

Let's say you read all the TOS and they all indicated that you couldn't expect security and privacy. How exactly would you obtain internet services?

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
45. Lets see what Joe Biden said about the government mining of metadata in 2006:
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 12:34 PM
Aug 2013


Sounds like Joe knows more that you.
I'll stick with the 2006 Joe Biden version,
but thanks for contributing your opinion anyway.
 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
49. Why don't you try reading what I said and THEN respond?
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 01:39 PM
Aug 2013

"I believe the NSA programs are morally overstepping their bounds and need to be scaled back."

^ Exactly what I said in the post you responded to.

Nothing Biden said in that clip indicates that he believes its illegal to collect metadata, he just indicated he doesn't think its the right thing to do.

DJ13

(23,671 posts)
52. Oh come on, thats not fair
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 02:54 PM
Aug 2013

Do you seriously expect Obama to know anything about the Constitution?

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
21. That Forbes Article is Fantastic Read...and Here's a Snip:
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:12 PM
Aug 2013
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennifergranick/2013/08/14/nsa-dea-irs-lie-about-fact-that-americans-are-routinely-spied-on-by-our-government-time-for-a-special-prosecutor-2/

"By hiding the fact that information comes from NSA surveillance, the government both masks the extent to which NSA’s domestic spying is used to trigger investigations of Americans, and prevents legal challenges to highly questionable surveillance practices like bulk phone record collection, warrantless access to American communications with friends and family overseas, and retention and use of illegally obtained domestic calls and emails.

This is outrageous conduct. It is the sort of thing you expect from the Chinese government, or one of the now-vanished governments of the Warsaw Pact. And there is no stronger proof of the dangers of the NSA’s domestic spying effort than the fact that the government has consistently lied about it and attempted to cover it up. Think for just a moment about the stories J. Edgar Hoover could have plausibly concocted about Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. or any other civil rights activist with this kind of detailed information. The Obama Administration has gone after leakers, and the journalists at outlets like the Associated Press or the New York Times who use them as sources, with unprecedented force. Think about what the current Attorney General, Eric Holder, could do to bring down these reporters who cover – sometimes in ways the Obama Administration doesn’t like — the conduct of American foreign policy. At this point, it’s plain to see that the Obama Administration has no intention of honestly fixing this mess. So it’s time now for Congress to act. A good first step would be to appoint a Special Prosecutor with wide power to subpoena Administration officials, and to bring criminal indictments where appropriate. Congress should then begin the process of reforming surveillance law to make absolutely clear that the NSA has no power to conduct warrantless mass surveillance of Americans.

First they came for the terrorists and the foreigners, and no one did anything. Then they came for the drug dealers. Then the tax cheats. Then the journalists. And that’s just what we know about. How much worse does it have to get before we say enough is enough?"
 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
23. Yes, indeed!
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:25 PM
Aug 2013

Why let us all go out to the crooked-ass, corrupt and shitty governmental system lawyer store -- and we find ourselves a good clean and ethical lawyer (ha-ha) and hire her/him as our shoot em' up, clean em' up special prosecutor. Eeeeee-haaaa!!!

And s/he'll make it all better. Just like all those other special prosecutors did in the past. Yessireebob, that's what this sitch calls for, don't it? More of the same.

What is it called when you keep doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over again expecting a different outcome????

- America.

dtom67

(634 posts)
25. this stuff will never stop...
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:32 PM
Aug 2013

Mainly,, because it is too valuable to wealthy business interests. Much of it amounts to nothing more than Publicly subsidzed corporate espionage. The spying IS useful for counteracting silly protests by the mouth - breathng Public, but t is mainly a way to make money. Therefore, you will not be able to stop it.
We know that money has corrupted our system, and we actually expect those that are corrupt to change things?

Maybe the apologists are right;
We don't deserve freedom.

Maybe in the next century, things will be better.....

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
43. Ohhhhhh
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 12:00 PM
Aug 2013

I thought you talking about age....... Even though I have read DU for years , I have only posted hear for about a year and not often until lately, I have been on the boards ,,,on the fronts lines, engaging the enemy for years.. I go where they are, like Tom Joad...... seems they are making a move around these parts now........so you will be seeing me more often.....

Thanks for the Welcome,,,,, a fruit basket would have been nice

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
48. Reading is a critical skill....
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 01:11 PM
Aug 2013

I never said I had another DU user name.. and btw I don't/didn't.

spooky3

(38,632 posts)
29. Aaah, what would the first author know about these matters?
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:41 PM
Aug 2013


Take a look at her bio on the site:

I am the Director of Civil Liberties at the Stanford Center for Internet and Society. I returned to Stanford after working with the internet boutique firm of Zwillgen PLLC. Before that, I was the Civil Liberties Director at the Electronic Frontier Foundation. I practice, speak and write about computer crime and security, electronic surveillance, consumer privacy, data protection, copyright, trademark and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. From 2001 to 2007, I was Executive Director of CIS and taught Cyberlaw, Computer Crime Law, Internet intermediary liability, and Internet law and policy. Before teaching at Stanford, I spent almost a decade practicing criminal defense law in California. I was selected by Information Security magazine in 2003 as one of 20 "Women of Vision" in the computer security field. I earned my law degree from University of California, Hastings College of the Law and my undergraduate degree from the New College of the University of South Florida.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
32. When are they
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:51 PM
Aug 2013

going to provide proof of all these illegalities that keep speculating about?

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
33. Is the
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:55 PM
Aug 2013

Democrat Tea Party members going to wear foil hats like their counterparts, the Republican Tea Party?

Mojorabbit

(16,020 posts)
40. It would be nice if you would discuss the article instead of snarking thru the thread. nt
Wed Aug 14, 2013, 09:21 PM
Aug 2013
 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
47. ROFL
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 12:52 PM
Aug 2013

"Reports suggested that the NSA had installed equipment referred to as “splitter cabinets” at main phone company offices, where they make a copy of all data traveling on the fiber optic cable and route it into a secret room where computers scan through the information"


The Internet is really just a series of TUBES

I guess the reporter was too lazy to google what an optical splitter actually does. They don't sit in "cabinets" either. Well I guess you could, but that would be a cabling nightmare. I just stick them on the same rack as FDP panels. I think NetOptics you can get 12 splitters in a 1 RU 19" rack. Do the people that write these stories even consult somebody in telecommunications? Do they have any idea how many fucking splitters you would have in a single CO to "capture all Internet traffic"? You know how many different fiber routes I have coming into one office in Chicago? Any idea how many DWDM systems we have running? CLUELESS!

Not to mention you can't "get the data" if you put a tap on a multiplexed optical path. You have to actually hang off the router interfaces. And no, we don't build redundancy into networks at all LOL


But it's just a series of a couple of tubes, thanks Stevens for that!

http://lbcommuter.com/2013/01/15/series-of-tubes-4-ways-to-deal-with-facebook-overload/

muriel_volestrangler

(106,201 posts)
51. Fiber Optic Products > Splitter Cabinets
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 02:46 PM
Aug 2013
http://us.telecomosp.com/fiber%20optic%20products/splitter%20cabinets/default.htm

I, Mark Klein, declare under penalty of perjury that the following is true and correct:
...
While doing my job, I learned that fiber optic cables from the secret room were tapping into the
Worldnet circuits by splitting off a portion of the light signal. I saw this in a design document
available to me, entitled "Study Group 3, LGX/Splitter Wiring, San Francisco" dated Dec. 10,
2002. I also saw design documents dated Jan. 13, 2004 and Jan. 24, 2003, which instructed
technicians on connecting some of the already in-service circuits to the "splitter" cabinet, which
diverts some of the light signal to the secret room. The circuits listed were the Peering Links,
which connect Worldnet with other networks and hence the whole country, as well as the rest of
the world.

http://cryptome.org/klein-decl.htm


 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
53. :)
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 02:56 PM
Aug 2013

Um, those cabinets are what you see at the end of an alley that Verizon would put in to deliver their FIOS service-


This is what an optical splitter looks like that you would put in a Central Office or Data Center


Dimensions:
0.81" high x 4.25" deep x 5.5" wide

Or this-

takes up .5RU



Yes, the NSA has links on some of the circuits going overseas- Not all traffic in the World...




 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
55. The whistleblower doesn't really know what he is talking about
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 03:09 PM
Aug 2013

From his own words

"a portion of the light signal"
LOL
It doesn't work like that. A passive (passive meaning no electronics) splitter is literally a glass prism. Just like you did in science class and hold it up to the light and see it reflected out two sides, a splitter does the same thing. The exact optical signal is "split" into two fiber paths. And you have to do it twice, once for TX and once for RX.

For all he knows it could have been going to an NetScout network monitoring tool so they could monitor their peering links and do traffic performance analysis of the network.

muriel_volestrangler

(106,201 posts)
56. Why do you say "it doesn't work like that" and then proceed to describe it working like that?
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 03:28 PM
Aug 2013

What are you claiming was in the "SG3 Secure Room", then? Remember, that comes from the AT&T internal documents, not just his description of the room.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
57. because when he says a "portion", if he knew he wouldn't use that word
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 03:35 PM
Aug 2013

not a portion, LOL, that wouldn't work-

All telecom rooms are secure. Go to the Infomart in Downtown Dallas and try to get into Equinox. They make the TSA look like kids play

muriel_volestrangler

(106,201 posts)
58. Why do you think the word 'portion' is not suitable?
Thu Aug 15, 2013, 03:46 PM
Aug 2013

After light goes through a beam splitter, what word do you insist is used to describe one of the beams, to indicate that some of the light has gone one way, and some another? Why is 'portion' wrong?

As an example of usage:

As the name implies, beamsplitters are utilized to redirect a portion of a light beam while allowing the remainder to continue on a straight path.

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/lightandcolor/prismsandbeamsplitters.html


The secure room could only be accessed by NSA technicians. This is a room which is secured against the people who work for the telecoms company.
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