It's time for the Left to stop the gotcha politics

[MannyGoldstein]

More drivel today about how politicians shouldn't make stuff up.

Remember when Obama said the NSA wasn’t “actually abusing” its powers? He was wrong. Gotcha!

Huge Majority Wants Clapper Prosecuted For Perjury - Salon Gotcha!

Note that there's nothing in the Constitution that says our politicians shouldn't lie, because our Founding Fathers wanted politicians to lie like crazy.

The Republicans lie too, so we have to do it too to stay competitive. I mean, do you think any Democrat could get elected if they were truthful about amping up free trade agreements, giving the 99%'s cash to Wall Street, and spying on every American? No, Americans would not vote for a candidate who said they'd do those things. So we have to lie. No choice.

So grow up, Liberals. Politics is a game for adults like me.

Regards,

Third-Way Manny

[Egalitarian Thug]

1. Oh this is so getting kicked. n/t

[delrem]

2. Thanks and I totally agree, Third-Way Manny.

Gotcha politics is as old as the shocked expressions on Dem congresscritters in full regalia wagging a finger and going "ta ta" in reprimand of Reps. Very stern and american gothic imagery having no actual effect.

I think it's long since time to pass on to the next phase - which necessarily takes the form of *action*.

[chervilant]

22. O, but

they have their fingers crossed behind their backs, in the time-honored tradition.

[limpyhobbler]

3. Thanks for showing us the error of our ways

Politics is serious business. We don't want to get distracted by a bunch of wild-eyed idealists, ranting on about the Bill of Rights and such.

[roguevalley]

7. there's that 'adult' vs everyone else thing again. The pugs use it all the time. Thanks

OP for using it here.

[demosincebirth]

30. The OP is right. Many far left liberals will lambast Obama for something he said duiing his campaing

and expect him tio come through on every statement he made while campainging or otherwise. Times change and shit happens in thei world every day. I don't agree with everthing that he has done of not done, but he is the man in charge and like every one of us, he is not perfect. We forget to think about the alternative if he hadn't been re elected.
Give the man a break...he is working, or trying, with no help from the House who is controlled by the Party of "Fuck you Mr Presiden." I think he has done the best job he can do with the the tools he's been given by us, the tea party controlled House. So, just keep tihinking of the alternative and that should get you a good night sleep every so often.

[bvar22]

42. I agree.

When a candidate promises to do things like "Renegotiating NAFTA", "Making EFCA the Law of the Land" or "Raise the CAP on Social Security",
or establish a "Public Option",
NOBODY should believe he is actually going to fight for those things.
That would be ridiculous.

3RD Way Manny is right!



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[roguevalley]

70. I expect him to FIGHT and lose if necessary. That is what dem presidents do. Having him spy on

us is Nixonian. The OP using 'adult' v the implied children is using a republican tactic against dissent. Google it.

[sabrina 1]

76. I think the OP is being satirical.

[Isoldeblue]

104. 1+ n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

50. The Bill of Rights is a lie too.

Totally true story.

[DirkGently]

4. Plus, it's just rude to correct people, really.

[kentuck]

5. (]:-)__~~~~%

[G_j]

6. you mean Bullworth wasn't a documentary?

That changes one's perspective considerably.

[RobertEarl]

8. Hope. Yes We Can! Change

Who the heck are we to be scolding the elite? We should give them all the love and support we can muster.

They are only doing what is best for us poor schmucks. History is the proof. Things could be worse, y'know. Not much, but they could be. They are not Hitler!

[brush]

9. Did you forget the sarcasm tag?

Otherwise, what's the purpose of this post?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

10. "Third-Way Manny" IS the sarcasm tag.

[brush]

11. I still don't get the purpose of the post though.

It's not particularly witty.

[Bolo Boffin]

12. Wedges don't have to be witty.

The blunter the tool, the better.

[bemildred]

15. Sarcasm rarely has much to do with wit. It's just one step up from ridicule. nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

19. It takes talent. You have to think like a Third Way Democrat....

Not everyone can do it.

It requires that you turn off your brain.

[brush]

20. Thanks for that

Last edited Fri Aug 16, 2013, 12:02 PM - Edit history (1)

The turn off your brain part.

Quite a lot of posts from him. Any body know his story?

[Scuba]

25. Yes, he's one of our best and most insightful members. Turn on your sarcasm detector and enjoy.

[rhett o rick]

31. You are correct. It's easy to mimic a right wing nitwit. Harder to

mimic someone that pretends to have empathy and compassion.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

34. I keep remembering how upset the liberals were when Clinton picked Gore....

You have to remember that Gore was a Blue Dog that voted with the Republicans.

The excuse Clinton gave at the time seems funny today. Clinton claimed he was so liberal that he had to pick a ConservaDem to balance out the ticket.

The Democrats never got the message as to why Clinton/Gore won that campaign either.

As far as they were concerned, it was because of their brilliance of kicking the hippies out of their party since the country had swung to the right.

The reality is that they BARELY won in a plurality because the Republicans threw a convention in Texas where they went too far to the right for their own base. They were trying to attract the crazies by banning abortion while America wanted jobs after more than a decade of the failed trickle down experiment. (Not to mention the Iran Contra and CIA drug smuggling.)

[bemildred]

49. Manny Goldstein, like Emmanuel Goldstein. As in the novel "1984". nt

[Bolo Boffin]

55. Exactly. But who's getting the benefit of the Two Minute Hate here?

This OP has created a fictional character, Third-Way Manny, who says things meant to encourage revulsion and ridicule of the people he disagrees with politically - in this case, centrist Democrats.

Didn't Orwell use Goldstein to illustrate how evil it was to do that? And yet here this poster is, indulging in the same tactics, and here you all are, cheering him on!

It's just an astonishing thing to watch.

[Fumesucker]

56. It would be more acceptable to you if he were to speak of "The Black Helicopter Left"?

Or is mockery only bad when it's of centrist Dems?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023466122

[Bolo Boffin]

58. Both sides do it, so it's OK if you do?

No, I don't like the Black Helicopter Left 2MH any more than the Third-Way Manny 2MH. And thank you for asking.

[Fumesucker]

60. Ah but you chose *this* thread to speak up against rather then the Black Helicopter one

And The Black Helicopter thing was clearly designed to be as deliberately insulting as possible.

Manny's satirical gibes are more subtle and require a little intelligence to process, as can be seen by the number of people who take him seriously every time he posts in that manner.

Showing the inanity of a given political position through satire has a long and proud history.

The Black Helicopter Left OP was a crude bludgeon written by someone who never even voted for Obama, Manny's posts are more rapier like.

Here's a link to the same blog, earlier post by the same writer.

http://www.thepeoplesview.net/2007/10/obama-lost-my-vote-general-election-too.html?m=0

Obama Lost My Vote - General Election, Too

Lest you think this is because I was personally offended as a gay man, you are right. But it wasn't only because of that that I made this decision. I draw the line in the sand when politicians pander to any group and sacrifice their stated goals of equal dignity under law and associate themselves, willingly, with known bigots of any kind, be they racists, sexists or homophobes. This is such a line. Obama has crossed it. Good riddance, Barack Obama.

[Bolo Boffin]

62. Both sides do it, so it's OK if you do? n/t

[Fumesucker]

79. I disagree that it's an illegitimate tactic

Some of the great literature in the English language is satire, Jonathan Swift is the goto example for that.

Mark Twain also employed satire, read The War Prayer, it's brilliant and brutal satire.

http://warprayer.org/

“Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth into battle — be Thou near them! With them — in spirit — we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended in the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames in summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it —

For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimmage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!

We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

[Bolo Boffin]

80. Thank you for your straw man. I didn't say all satire was illegitimate.

But making a Goldstein figure out of people with whom you disagree on some issues? That's what Orwell was warning against, and that's what this thread is full of.

[Fumesucker]

87. Manny is just taking their arguments to their logical conclusion

Which is why his Third Way posts get under their skin so badly, a lot of them are spouting NonSense, some with little blue links that most of the time don't even relate to the subject of the post.

Reading the spin here from some of the more committed pom pom shakers reminds me very much of when I was posting on right wing boards back during the Cheney regency, it was literally impossible to get wingnuts to admit that Dubya had any flaws or had ever done anything less than absolute perfection. It's really disturbing to see the same attitude now on DU that I used to see on say, Riehl World View six years ago.

I had an OP up a month or so ago about my experience in that regard.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10023165699

[Bolo Boffin]

90. Manny is doing more than that.

I've got no beef with making your point, or even taking arguments to logical conclusions. But Manny pretends to speak for them in order to draw ire towards them. That's what the Party did with Goldstein in 1984. That's what the pigs did to Snowball in Animal Farm.

In Orwell, it's one of the signs that a society is on the wrong path altogether. It's a betrayal of socialism. And it sucks to see it here at DU, no matter who is doing it.

[Fumesucker]

99. Of course our society is on the wrong path altogether

The attitudes Manny is satirizing have very little to do with socialism and a great deal to do with a cult of personality, one of the other things Orwell warned against and exactly what I was talking about in my previous post to you about pom pom wavers, Dubya and right wing blogs.

If people don't want to risk drawing satire then they should stop mindlessly and constantly defending things like drone strikes and NSA spying on a board that runs heavily liberal/progressive.

Liberal Democratic Congressman Alan Grayson posted here in GD not all that long ago and got brutally flamed by the pragmatic moderate centrists for being perceived as to the left of Obama.

[Bolo Boffin]

100. DU is the society to which I refer.

And you always have control of what you say and the tactics you use - none of this, "They were dressed like that, walking around here, what did they expect" nonsense.

It's just particularly egregious that Manny Goldstein takes that as a name but is himself Goldsteining the left-of-center moderates who post here at DU. That people encourage him is just the shoeshine on the boot.

[Fumesucker]

110. My rule of thumb for who is hurting DU are those whose posts draw more heat than light

DU is actually fairly sensible as a group, if I see an OP that has a lot of argumentative replies and relatively few recs then it's usually a poorly thought out OP or even just plain trolling (heat). Lots of replies and zero or very few recs then someone probably screwed the pooch big time.

An OP with a lot of recs and a lot of replies means that either someone has posted a cat picture, a good joke or made a point worth serious discussion (light).

Really informative but not controversial OPs often don't get many replies but can get quite a few recs.

[MADem]

111. Your posts on this thread are the only thing that makes it worth reading. nt

[bemildred]

57. Goldstein is modelled on Trotsky, as was Snowball in Animal farm.

Both novels are in fact themselves meant to encourage revulsion towards political views the writers disagreed with, they are parodies and distopias based on the rise of the totalitarian state.

[Bolo Boffin]

59. The real Goldstein never appears in 1984, only the caricature used by the Party.

The real Snowball does, but is later turned into a caricature for hate after he's chased off/killed.

So because both books are parodies and satires, Orwell was really endorsing the 2MH concept? He wanted us to build our own Goldsteins? You must be joking.

[bemildred]

61. Those are your thoughts, not mine.

Parodies are not done to offer real solutions to real problems, they are used to discredit views one does not like. As I said.

Orwell and Huxley wanted us to "feel revulsion" for totalitarian methods, those things you mention (THM, Goldsteins) are among the totalitarian methods being parodied. That is why "Manny Goldstein" leads on to the realization that the handle is a parody.

[Bolo Boffin]

64. But the OP is not satirizing the tactic, as Orwell did. He is employing it. n/t

[bemildred]

65. The OP is doing a similar thing using much cruder methods.

The purpose is the same: ridicule of what one disagrees with. It is VERY POPULAR all over the web. I am fond of it myself. It comprises of 95% of the posts against Snowassanning, too. They have gender issues, they are narcissists, they are spies and traitors, etc.

But it is not a serious argument for your position, ever.

[Bolo Boffin]

66. Enjoy your psuedo-totalitarian tactics for ridiculing people with whom you disagree.

Let me know how that works out for you.

ETA: But as for me, it makes DU suck.

[bemildred]

67. It works great, thanks. nt

[Bolo Boffin]

68. It makes DU suck. n/t

[bemildred]

69. That's it, do your part. nt

[Bolo Boffin]

75. No, thank you.

I'd rather make DU a better place.

[bemildred]

78. I look forward to your new, better DU. nt

[Bolo Boffin]

81. You should. n/t

[bemildred]

82. I do. Better get started. nt

[Bolo Boffin]

83. I have. I'm calling out Manny's bullshit.

This tactic makes DU suck. It's truly Orwellian. And it demeans anyone who approves of it.

We should know better.

[bemildred]

84. Indeed, terrible stuff, probably will destroy DU shortly.

Manny should spank himself.

[Bolo Boffin]

85. There is a way to make the points you have to make

that doesn't tear down the other side and make DU suck. There is a way to build up and not demean, to be constructive and not destructive, to be truly progressive and not divisive.

This is not the way.

[bemildred]

86. It's my way, and I'm not likely to take any instruction from you about such things. nt

[Bolo Boffin]

88. You undermine your own ideals all you want. That's not my concern.

But this Goldsteining makes DU suck, no matter which side is doing it. It's a tactic of weakness, not strength.

[bemildred]

89. You seem quite persistent about it, for something which is not your concern.

Though I quite agree, it's not your concern.

[Bolo Boffin]

91. When you do it in a public discussion board, you make it my concern in that arena.

Making DU suck is something that should concern us all.

[bemildred]

92. Oh, it is your concern. Now I don't know what to think. nt

[Bolo Boffin]

96. You seem nice. n/t

[bemildred]

98. I think you are swell too. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

93. Wow! Now I'm a verb!

Xerox, Google, and now Goldstein!

Any cash royalties involved here?

[Bolo Boffin]

95. That verb refers to what the Party did to the original Goldstein, not you.

No royalties for you.

[MannyGoldstein]

102. #%^*. But a serious question:

How do you feel about Swift's A Modest Proposal?

[Bolo Boffin]

103. That you flatter yourself to compare yourself with him. n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

105. Suddenly at a loss for an answer?

I think you're better than that.

[Bolo Boffin]

114. If Jonathon Swift had actually eaten a baby, then you could compare yourself with him.

Because that is the equivalent of what you are doing here by taking the name you have and then doing exactly what Orwell was condemning.

[MannyGoldstein]

115. I asked a simple question. Can you humor me with a simple answer?

Thanks.

[Bolo Boffin]

116. You have your answer.

Satire. Take lessons.

[Just Saying]

112. ++++++++++

[zeemike]

71. No that was not what Goldstein was in 1984

Goldstein in the novel was the bait for those who were prone to thought crimes.

Quite unlike Third Way Manny...who just points out our own faults...and brings out the anger in those who would punish us for thought crimes.

[Bolo Boffin]

74. He was that as well, but the Party used Goldstein first and foremost to inspire hate.

Only the rare few would ever have taken that bait. All the others went to their 2MH and got their war on.

[zeemike]

94. Well the whole thing about the party is the crushing of descent.

And that is what Third Way Manny is about, descent from the party line...so I can see how the party may want to hate on him...just like they hate on Snowden and Greenwald...those people say things they are not supposed to say if they are true party members.

Sorry but I see the third way dems in the same way I see the authoritarian GOP...as trying to enforce party loyalty by making Goldstein out of desenters...it is a road I hope they don't continue down...it is kind of creepy to me.

[Bolo Boffin]

97. Right, all the bullshit about Snowden's pole-dancing girlfriend, etc.

Just as irrelevant, just as sucky.

But whether it's centrist Dems making a Goldstein out of Snowden, or Manny making a Goldstein out of centrist Democrats, it's a tactic to crush dissent.

[zeemike]

101. You don't see the difference?

One is attacking a person to make them a Goldstein or a Snowball, and the other is attacking an attitude and policy...the third way policy of giving away the principle of the democratic party to get along with the GOP...which makes them a player in the triangulation.

But yes I guess if you want to look at it that way, criticizing policy is crushing descent I guess...as long as everyone supports the leader and keeps their doubts to themselves it will be a happy place.

[Just Saying]

107. First time I've seen someone call it so well.

"But whether it's centrist Dems making a Goldstein out of Snowden, or Manny making a Goldstein out of centrist Democrats, it's a tactic to crush dissent."



The vast majority of what they accuse I've seen none of from their imagined enemy "third ways" or whatever the hell. Basically anyone who isn't reacting and believing exactly as they are qualifies.

[bemildred]

13. Oh thank you for being there to protect us all, Manny.

You are true hero, protecting our secrets, not like that irresponsible prick Snowden, who gave them all to our enemies our friends the Russians and Chinese.

[rhett o rick]

36. " that irresponsible prick Snowden". Is that all you have? Ad hominem attacks?

I smell desperation. Anything to detract from the authoritarian Booz-Allen/NSA state.

By the way, what's your source for the allegation that Snowden gave secrets to China and Russia?

[bemildred]

38. They must have!

That's all invaluable stolen secret data about ordinary unimportant people all over the world and their personal lives and relationships. Everybody wants to know more about that. Daytime TV is not enough! Some of them might be criminals. Besides it's all public information, so anybody can have it. We just collect it and save it and run queries against it.

I know! It's just for research! We are just studying the web and it's architecture, hoping to further benefit mankind.

[rhett o rick]

43. Good grief. Dont tell me Manny has rubbed off on you? I have a hard enough time with him. nm

[bemildred]

44. It comes natural, a gift from my family, but I admit I don't usually indulge.

I promise not to make a habit of it. Let's face it, only Manny can really be Manny.

[rhett o rick]

45. It's not you it's me. I have a chip on my shoulder and go off too quickly sometimes.

Stay cool.

[bemildred]

47. Whatt!!! Stay COOL! How dare you!

[rhett o rick]

48. Ah ha! Just as I thought. You can dish it out but not take it.

[Jackpine Radical]

51. I can't decide whether this is uncharacteristic obtuseness from you

or if you're taking the sarcasm to a new level by pretending to take Manny straight-up.

[rhett o rick]

52. I characteristically stepped in the sarcasm hole and got obtuseness all over my pants.

I am characteristically sarcasm impaired.

[pscot]

109. Meta irony

[Jackpine Radical]

113. I never meta irony

I didn't like.

[Zorra]

14. Liberals simply don't understand the necessity of woo. nt

[rhett o rick]

46. Yikes, you used the "w" word. There are those that would have you PPR'd for the woo

word.

[kath]

16. So good to see you here again, Third-Way Manny!

we can always count on you to set us straight!

[Arctic Dave]

17. A ROFL K&R.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

18. Have a listen to Larry Ellison on Charlie Rose from tonight . . .

He'll make you feel like an idiot about our "privacy".

@4:30

[Egnever]

21. It's essential

I agree, I also agree with his red line.

[Agony]

23. Please GO AWAY. please?

not

[xchrom]

24. !

[Kolesar]

26. More drivel

So far so good

[mick063]

27. Manny is so pragmatic.

He lives in the real world. He knows how the system works and has done more to help the party than you have.

Now just go about your business and let Manny handle this.

He has got your back.

[rhett o rick]

32. I agree. Pragmatish is the excuse to do something stupid. nm

[leveymg]

28. I pledge to also stop asking for ponies

and to always wear my helmet.

[Wilms]

29. ^

[PowerToThePeople]

33. K&R

[woo me with science]

35. ...

K&R

[robertpaulsen]

37. Manny, it's so great to see that you've become a sensible thinker!

[Rex]

39. LOL!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Is that the "professional left" or the "Black Helicopter Left"?

[Safetykitten]

41. I know Manny! But could we make them more creative with a backstory lie?

[SummerSnow]

53. Gotcha

[WillyT]

54. LOL !!! - K & R !!!

[yurbud]

63. sadly, you have to get nearly to the end before it becomes clear it's satire

There are too many post that say Shit like this UNsarcastically

[Demo_Chris]

72. Thanks Manny, this is a serious issue and too important for gotcha politics...

Whether some like it or not, this issue has been settled by a bi-partisan consensus of responsible and reasonable politicians and pundits. Our safety and future proserity as a free people is too fragile to allow the irrational and binary concerns of privacy concern RADICALS to have a voice in this discussion. Like those who believe in Mermaids or the Area 51 UFO connection, privacy radicals deserve to be treated as what they are: children, frightened of imaginary boogeymen.

And I, for one, am thrilled that our President is treating these citizens and their so-called concerns with the scorn and monitoring they deserve.

[GeorgeGist]

73. Geesh, I go on vacation for two weeks ...

and NOTHING changes.

Keep up the good work, Manny.

[whatchamacallit]

77. Heheheh... n/t

[hootinholler]

106. ROFLMAO n/t

[GoneFishin]

108. Third-Way Manny rocks! Constitution huggers stick it in your ear. nt

[mstinamotorcity2]

117. Funny how the President didn't start this mess....

But they damn sure want him to hurry and clean it up.

[99Forever]

118. Third-Way Manny knocks it out of the park...

... again.