Dr. Phil asks: “If a girl is drunk, is it OK to have sex with her?”

[Liberal_in_LA]

Dr. Phil tweets, then deletes message about sex with drunk women

Dr. Phil could probably use a Twitter tutorial.

The celebrity doc sparked a social media controversy when he tweeted Tuesday afternoon: “If a girl is drunk, is it OK to have sex with her?”

The overwhelming Twitter response was (obviously) “No!” And why the heck is he asking, anyway?

Fox News’ “Red Eye with Greg Gutfeld” commentator Andy Levy wrote: “Are you ‘asking for a friend’?”

Other users demanded the talk show host delete the offensive message.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2013/08/21/dr-phil-tweets-then-deletes-message-about-sex-with-drunk-women/#ixzz2cdH7BNKi

[phleshdef]

1. I've had sex with girls when we were both drunk.

But I think most people know the difference between taking advantage of someone who is completely blacked out vs a willing participant who is intoxicated.

[LittleBlue]

6. Same

But I wonder if both are drunk and neither can consent, what would that be legally?

[Comrade Grumpy]

15. They should just detain themselves and report to the nearest police station.

[Bake]

24. Depends, I suppose, on HOW drunk ...

bake

[Xithras]

12. The best and worst sex of my life happened when we were both drunk.

The difference was the degree of intoxication. A "bit" drunk can loosen inhibitions and lead to incredibly enjoyable sex. Too much can lead you to places you really don't want to go.

There are a small minority of extremists who believe that any sex with someone while under the influence is nonconsensual. Most people, however, tend to agree that the line is only crossed when a person gets so drunk that a state of confusion sets in. If she is so drunk that she can no longer comprehend the world around her, she's clearly too drunk to consent to anything. If she's blacked out, she physically CANNOT consent.

[phleshdef]

13. Hehe, yea I hear ya.

I was dating or now married to any of the girls who I was in that situation with. We pretty much planned to party and have sex beforehand in all instances.

[Sammich Man]

2. Priceless

Way to go Dr Phil.

[gopiscrap]

3. Dr. Phil is a fucking moron

why do you even ask IT IS NEVER OK!!!! if a person is in diminished capacity and can't make a rational decision.

[NuclearDem]

4. No it's not, you fucking Neanderthal.

[Ken Burch]

5. So, Dr. Phil, if a drunk Georgia mountain man has YOU hog-tied and "nekkid"...

is it ok for him to make you "Squeal Like A Pig!"?

[LuvNewcastle]

8. You need to send to him, Ken.

[malthaussen]

7. I'm curious as to why these arguments never take into account...

... the relationship of the individuals involved, and what they might think on the matter. The "zero-tolerance rape" argument seems to permit no consideration as to the individuals involved, but to demand compliance of all regardless of their personal relationship and resolutions they might have arrived at as a couple.

-- Mal

[msanthrope]

14. Indeed--one should always take into account the relationship between people when rape, murder, and

other crimes happen.

Seriously?????

That's why people who hurt their families tend to do less time then people who hurt 'strangers.' And that's not always a good thing when it comes to rape, or domestic violence, is it?

[Comrade Grumpy]

16. Drunk sex = rape and murder? I'm not following you...

[malthaussen]

18. Ah, you misunderstand. Or I express myself ill.

Put it this way: I have no objection to being woken up by the sexual advances of a partner. I would not cry rape in such a situation. I rather expect there are those who agree with this, indeed, I have discussed it with partners from time to time, and we do so agree.

If an individual contends that rape has happened under such circumstances, then it is clearly (should be clearly?) understood that no such agreement has taken place. Or in other words, it's only rape if there is a complaint. It is not absolutely rape in all circumstances: to say so would be to deny that a pair (or other number) of adults can decide for themselves what is and is not permissible within their relationship.

In the case of drunkenness, if the individuals involved has no objection, who is Dr Phil or the State to say them nay? Sexual conduct is not, after all, murder. There is no means in law by which an individual may consent to his own murder, but there is abundant means in law by which an individual may consent to sex.

In short, it is not that the relationship ameliorates the crime, it is that the relationship may establish whether or not a crime has, in fact, been committed. But the zero-tolerance rape argument makes no allowance for this.

-- Mal

[BainsBane]

45. It is rape if there is no consent

Not only if there is no complaint. A woman who is passed out cannot consent. Now if you are in a monogamous relationship, already committed and frequent partners, and drink together, that's a different story from a dating situation.

[LanternWaste]

20. What specifically leads you to that conclusion?

"the "zero-tolerance rape" argument seems to permit no consideration as to the individuals involved,..."

What specifically leads you to that conclusion?

[malthaussen]

21. Because of the way the questions are framed.

"Is it rape to have sex with a drunk person?" That seems to require a yes/no answer. But your point is well-taken, that is an interpretation.

-- Mal

[snooper2]

9. If she wants to

[darkangel218]

35. Agreed.

+1000000

[petronius]

10. Perhaps "No!" is the answer he was looking for, and this was an

incredibly ill-crafted attempt at 'education'?

(Not saying that's what I think it was, necessarily - Phil is after all a complete tool who long ago used up his benefit-of-the-doubt ration...)

[HappyMe]

11. I was wondering the same thing.

Kind of a clunky way to say that it isn't okay.

[raccoon]

17. You could've at least said "If a WOMAN is drunk," Dr. Phil. nt

[Ken Burch]

23. You sort of wonder if he was listening to Gary Puckett and the Union Gap

when he tweeted that.

[CBGLuthier]

19. The only thing he wanted was to get people to pay attention to him.

Hate him, love him, he does not care he is an attention seeking freak.

[pnwmom]

22. Absolutely. It's rape if you're sober and she's drunk. But if you're both drunk,

are you raping each other?

[darkangel218]

34. I am "legally drunk" after 3 beers.

That doesnt mean I can't make decisions.
Equally it doesn't mean I am being raped if I have a few drinks and chose to have sex.


Gah....

[Socal31]

25. Not politically correct, but not a smart thing to say due to ambiguity.

Calling having sex with your SO after you finish a bottle of wine together (which can easily cause someone to break the legal .07 threshold for intoxication) "rape" actually distracts from this taboo topic.

I think it could help young men and women, who are more likely to be put in a situation where they have to make a decision, if this was able to be openly discussed.

When having a "sex talk" with your teen, you should be able to bring up this subject, just like any other situation they may face in life.

Knowing the difference between a legally drunk potential sex partner, and one who is too intoxicated to consent to sexual contact, is a legitimate topic.

If this story brings up just one family discussion about this tonight, well then Dr. Phil accidentally did something correct.

[gollygee]

26. Feministing: Five Problems With Dr. Phil's Tweet

http://feministing.com/2013/08/21/five-problems-with-dr-phils-tweet/

1. The tweet perpetuates the idea that rape is blurry.

Let’s start with a story. During my collegiate freshman orientation five years ago, my classmates and I were hoarded into an auditorium to learn about consent. On the stage two actors pantomimed a date rape (why anyone thought any of this was a good idea, I have no idea): girl comes to boy’s room to study, they make out, girl takes off her shirt, boy ignores her refusal to have sex and rapes her. Each student was given a little stop sign, which we were supposed to raise when we thought the boy had crossed the line: essentially, when the violence had begun. Afterward, we broke into little discussion groups to talk about our personal opinions on whether what had happened was rape and why. I said it was. The guy who lived downstairs in my dorm said it wasn’t. The facilitator gave our opinions equal weight.

There are obviously a whole ton of reasons this orientation activity was terrible, but the thing that particularly worried me was the program’s messaging that there wasn’t a right answer. If everyone’s definition of rape is equally valid, rape doesn’t really exist: how can we name violence if anyone’s “but I don’t think it is” works as an accepted counterargument? When every student’s decision as to when to raise the little red stop sign, if at all, is correct, the category of rape dissolves quite literally into a series of blurred lines, about which some of us will have Happy Feelings and some of us will have Sad Feelings, and isn’t that interesting.

That's part of the first problem. Interesting article about it IMO.

[tularetom]

27. Dr Phil should probably do like Pinto

[Dawson Leery]

28. A Texas conservative.

[RandySF]

29. Define "drunk"

Are we talking about someone who has tipsy and in the mood, or beyond the point of making a sound judgement?

[senseandsensibility]

30. Idiot.

"Dr. Phil" is creepy. What is doctorate in again?

[darkangel218]

33. PhD in Creepiness.

[longship]

31. Yet another sleezy Harpo Production.

Dr. "I was the worst marriage counselor on the planet; that's why Oprah Winfrey made me famous for doing precisely for what I profess to be incompetent" Phil.

Like another one of Oprah's champions, Jenny "Before I discovered anti-vaccination rubbish, I promoted my autistic son as a Crystal Child, a possible alien/human hybrid who possesses psychic abilities from... maybe the Pleiades" McCarthy.

Or, maybe it's... DUN DUN DUNNNNN!... "The Secret". Can I really get a unicorn who farts rainbows if I wish it hard enough?

Or just maybe it's John of God, who does one of the sleaziest scams, psychic surgery, to bilk his clients. Of course he's supported by Dr. Oz, who is supported by... wait for it... Dun-Tadda-Dahhhh! Oprah Winfrey!!!!

She's the queen of woo woo. She uses her great wealth to exhibit and spread her utter ignorance.

[BainsBane]

46. It takes a lot of effort to blame a woman for a man's comments about rape

[longship]

50. If it wasn't for Oprah, Nobody'd know who Dr. Phil was. nt

[darkangel218]

32. There are different levels of drunkiness.

Being intoxicated doesn't always mean you can't make decisions.

[pokerfan]

37. At what point does it become rape?

0.08% seems to be the limit for motoring in most states so should the same limit apply? The Tom Hulce scene from Animal House with the passed out girl is obviously over the line (even though his better angel won, he was contemplating it) but is it consensual if the sex occurs after a dinner and sharing a bottle of vino? Does it matter if it's the first time for the couple? Should the first time be sober and then feel free to hit the bottle after that?

[darkangel218]

38. IMO, i would consider i would be raped if i was blacked out, or so drunk

That I couldn't even walk.

But that's just my take on it.

[nomorenomore08]

40. That's not the problem though. The problem is that to a lot of people, apparently drunkenness =

consent. With the result that nothing one does to a drunk person can be considered sexual assault, even if the person presses charges afterwards.

[darkangel218]

41. I doubt thats the case.

I'm a very spiritual person, I don't really care for sex when sober. I might give it a second thought after a few drinks.

IMO, if someone is still able to walk, speak, think, there is nothing wrong with it.

[nomorenomore08]

43. I mostly agree. So long as one person isn't a whole lot more inebriated than the other.

But some people really do think as I just noted above. Hence one reason for the difficulty in prosecuting "date rape" cases.

[BainsBane]

47. The law says someone who is intoxicated cannot legally consent to rape

What that level is, I'm not sure. The driving limit would seem reasonable.

[ZombieHorde]

51. I agree. nt

[Squinch]

36. If Dr. Phil speaks, is it OK to drop an anvil on his head?

Please, oh please, oh please, say yes!

[nomorenomore08]

39. Intoxication of any kind DOES NOT CONSTITUTE de facto consent.

Granted, it doesn't constitute de facto non-consent either, but that's kind of beside the point here...

[darkangel218]

42. So you basically advocate having sex only when sober??

[nomorenomore08]

44. I never said that. And it's not my view at all.

"Drunk sex," in and of itself, is fine. It's when there's an obvious power differential, e.g. one person is way more wasted than the other, or one person is incapacitated and the other (obviously) isn't, that a problem arises.

[darkangel218]

48. Its not besides the point.

Intoxication doesn't automatically mean non consent.

[nomorenomore08]

49. Yeah, that's what I said. But I said it was "beside the point" because the real issue at hand

is the opposite of that, i.e. people thinking drunkenness means consent automatically. I think you and I would both be surprised - if not appalled - at the number of people out there who think that way.

[redgreenandblue]

52. Some people *do* argue that intoxication automatically equals non-consent in these discussions.

I strongly disagree with this.

Obviously sometimes intoxication is used as a means to commit rape, but sex while intoxicated does not automatically constitute rape. One cannot disregard general circumstances.

[blueknight]

53. someone needs

to let dumbass dr phil get drunk, then shove a giant dildo up his ass and ask him if that was ok