The demonization of Muslims, now in our new, Democratic flavor.

[MadHound]

Once again(yes, US troops have done this multiple times), US forces have shown supreme cultural insensitivity in the handling of Islam's holy book, the Quran. One would think that after going through this once, perhaps twice, we would have better sense when it comes to these matters. But apparently not, and once again the US comes off looking like boors, at the least, to over a billion people worldwide.

Worse, this religious insult is added on to the stark fact that we are conducting an illegal, immoral war in Afghanistan, while continuing to violate the sovereignty of other nations, including Yemen and Pakistan. Add to this our history of imperial, armed intervention in the Middle East, with actions such as the Iraq war, a decade of deadly Iraqi sanctions, installation of our hand picked puppet rulers, etc.

So really now, is it any wonder that those of the Islamic faith are rather pissed at the US right now? It's apparently not enough for us to be involved in a military action that Bush originally launched as a crusade, but apparently we have to rub salt in the wound periodically by desecrating the Quran.

What's sad is the reaction here in the states. Rabid right wingers are insulted that Muslims are insulted, are actually joyful that Qurans were desecrated, and some take it even further, going ahead and desecrating a Quran themselves(remember Terry Jones anybody). Now, after this latest stupidity, I come onto this board here, and find people who are supposed to culturally sensitive, intelligent, tolerant, at least somewhat liberal, repeating the same sort of garbage that the right spews forth. The same epithets, the same lack of cultural awareness, the same disregard for other cultures(I could give numerous quotes here, but it is against the rules to call out another DUer and I don't want this post locked).

How dare those Muslims be offended, that seems to be the general line of thinking these days. You know what, if I had a foreign country occupying my country, having killed tens of thousands of innocents in my country, wreaked devastation upon my country, and then topped it off by burning my holy book, in my country, yeah, I'd be pretty damn mad as well.

Don't you get it, this isn't just a reaction to the burning of Quran's, this is a reaction to our ongoing illegal, immoral, imperial war that we are carrying out in a Muslim country. Yeah, burning a Quran may not seem like a big thing to you, but it is but the latest insult that we, the United States, have given to a country where we have killed innocents, leveled villages, tortured people, raped women, and killed children. Yeah, burning a Quran may not seem like much, but for many Afghan citizens, it is the latest in a long line of US perpetrated atrocities.

The best thing we can do, the moral thing that we should do is to withdraw from Afghanistan immediately. Pull our troops out, and send in humanitarian aid, reparations, and apologize for the needless death and destruction that we have caused during the past decade. It is the least we can do for a country that we invaded and occupied for no good reason.

So really now, you shouldn't be surprised at these reactions to what US forces do. It is the only way that an occupied and beaten people can express their anger against the US, and US atrocities. Doing anything else more substantial, like justifiably fighting back against such occupation, risks getting a drone fired missile landing in your house.

So yes, we should apologize. Better yet, we should leave. Not in 2014, not next year, but now, immediately. That is the only meaningful gesture of contrition that we could make that would ring true with the Afghan people. Anything else rings hollow.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. FUBAR actions in a FUBAR lost war.

[fascisthunter]

2. Gotta love the fomenting of anger towards Muslims

just in time for another war...

[Yooperman]

3. But what about the oil pipeline?

We wouldn't have control of the oil! Also... God forbid all our troops die in vane!! WE MUST WIN AT ALL COSTS!

Blasphemy I tell you Blasphemy!



Seriously... I couldn't have written it better. I can only hope that someday before I die my fellow citizens will evolve to understand what you are saying.

Peace

YM

[RBInMaine]

4. Dumb mistake by a very small number of people. Don't overgeneralize.

[MadHound]

5. Except that this "dumb mistake" has been repeated time and again

Not to mention that we've committed "dumb mistakes" with drones, bombs, rifles, etc., to the tune of tens of thousands of innocents dead. After awhile, these cease to be "dumb mistakes" and become business as usual. We've reached that point, which is why we need to pull out, now.

[fascisthunter]

6. Invading Iraq was one of the DUMBEST mistakes

[loyalsister]

8. The problem is the justification and defense

It's a larger group when so many people rush to defend the people who do it.

[Jack Sprat]

7. I disagree partially.

Although the immediate withdrawal makes good sense, the reparations and humanitarian aid, etc are not agreeable with me personally or much of the population. The Moslems are not angels in their treatment of women in their religious society and attempt to export that horrible religion wherever they go. I find the peaceful part of the Islamic religion to be missing in action and the violent part is prevalent in their laws and customs. To try to be empathetic with these people is beyond difficult for me because of their dogged determination to cling to this religion and bring it with them when emigrating to other continents.

[MadHound]

9. Look at the religious right in this country,

And you will find the same thing.

In fact you will find that the religious right has committed acts of terrorism in this country as well, and are unrepentant about it.

And given the damage that we've done to Afghanistan, for no good reason, reparations are the least that we can do.

And if you think that the "peaceful" Muslims are MIA, then frankly you aren't looking very hard.

[Jack Sprat]

20. As usual, you are exaggerating the case.

Christians, Jews, and Buddhists do not make a habit of killing their daughters for out of wedlock affairs. If they do, it sure isn't publicized.

You tell me to look at other religions to prove your point and I have and I cannot. I don't find the same thing. I don't find them strapping vest bombs to their children to kill the heretics or whatever they call us western non-islamists.

Then don't use the religious right has your cover. The religious right are indeed a bunch of fanatical zealots themselves and they have been guilty of some terrible individual terrorist acts. I don't think that they represent more than a tiny fraction of Christians at large, however.

Look, you made a few good points. We need to disengage militarily from their region. I agree with that. But, you are going way over the edge in comparing Islam with any other religion in regards to fanaticism. They are the ultimate ultra-fanatics of a religion, which already sanctions their methods and actions as being allah-approved. I simply am saying we should leave them alone to their atrocious religion, live and let live on the earth with them, but not encourage them in any conceivable gesture. How can we given their rigid, non-tolerant, uncompromising Islamic religious fervor.

[The Midway Rebel]

37. Muslims do not make a "habit" of murdering their daughters either...

but it is convenient for some to believe and say such things to justify their hatred and fear of what they do not understand.


We "Christians" in the West do not need to strap "vest bombs" to our children because we can afford for to pay a military with predator drones do that dirty work of terrorism for us.

[GeorgeGist]

49. You forgot the Crusades.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. do you know what islamaphobia is?

definitionally its the denial of the existence of a moderate muslim majority.

which is exactly what you are doing.

[Jack Sprat]

40. Islamophobia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islamophobia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Definitions|Origins and causes|Criticism|Media
Islamophobia describes prejudice against, hatred or irrational fear of Islam or Muslims

Although I may be prejudiced against, I don't hate or fear Islam. Yes, I disapprove of their customs and rites, for certain. When they deny women education, forbid their dress beyond small slits for the eyes, beat them, kill them, and disgrace them for adultery, then I think the comparisons to other major religions are significantly self-evident.

As to the analogy you painted in your attempt to silence my dissent, I took into consideration that Christians have drawn much more open criticism on this forum on a regular basis than any other religion. If nobody is allowed to criticize religions, then it would be grossly unfair to continue to allow criticism of Christians while giving Islam a pass.

The broad assertion made in the OP's title, "The Demonization of Muslims, Now in our new Democratic flavor" deserved discussion because it generally implied that Muslims were unfairly demonized while other religions, esp. Christianity, were not. You know that isn't the case at all. But if you would like to petition the rules committee to have all criticism of all religions prohibited, it is your right to do so.

[MadHound]

42. Again, you are dealing in assumptions and implications

I certainly didn't imply anything with my title, especially the Islam vs. Christianity persecution that you came up with.

Furthermore, you don't deal with the issue of moderate Muslims in your reply, in fact you avoid that subject.

I suggest that you deal with the issue at hand, rather than continue to deal with assumptions and implications.

[JNathanK]

44. I think arguably our Christian base would act as crazy if a foreign country was occupying them.

They'd see it as a conspiracy to destroy Western society and Christiandom and set up IED's to destroy the Islamic, heathen hordes. If your whole family was killed by air strikes from the United States of Persia or the Arabic Union and had nothing else to loose, you'd probably consider strapping explosives to yourself to take out some of the invaders.

In the middle ages, when the Islamic world was at its Zenith they were centers of knowledge and learning, and if it wasn't for them, they wouldn't have preserved much of Western History. The Church actually destroyed much of the works of Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras,etc, and the only reason copies survive today is because of translations from Persian copies.

I think they've gotten more fanatical from Western foreign policy. 80 years ago, they didn't have suicide bombers. 60 years ago, Iran even had a democratically elected leader, Muhammad Mussadegh, who the CIA and MI5 deposed, because he wanted to nationalize his own countries oil. They then made the Shah an absolute monarch (funny, a nation that prides itself on overthrowing a King would support a king over a democratically elected president) who imprisoned and killed republican dissidents. Political suppression in Iran didn't start in 1979. it was well established before the regime change. It was the same with the USSR. They had gulags well before communism.

[SomethingFishy]

12. "The Moslems are not angels in their treatment of women

in their religious society and attempt to export that horrible religion wherever they go."

"I find the peaceful part of the Islamic religion to be missing in action and the violent part is prevalent in their laws and customs. To try to be empathetic with these people is beyond difficult for me because of their dogged determination to cling to this religion and bring it with them when emigrating to other continents."

What's the prevalent religion in the US again? Christianity? Do you see the irony here?

[Fortran]

14. The only real irony is that to many Democrats it's fine to criticize "Christianity" but verboten to

extend derogatory remarks toward Islam. They are both delusional and dangerous afflictions.

[Jack Sprat]

21. Good point.

They are absolutely guilty of this. You can always count on them to be anti-Christian in the extreme at the same time they are defending Islam to the nth degree. It doesn't wash with me.

[Zalatix]

24. As a Democrat and one who is flabbergasted by the Koran-burning riots, and a Christian, too

I defend NEITHER religion when their members engage in oppression of any sort.

Still, I want US troops OUT of the Middle East.

[uppityperson]

33. well put, thank you.

[SomethingFishy]

25. Oh I see so it's wrong to call out hypocrisy...

Which is what this is.

I could care less about religion. I wish all organized religion would go away. Religion is nothing but control. I don't need to be controlled and if I believe there is a god I don't need some fucking clown in a funny hat or funny robes to tell me how to have a relationship with him/her/it.

I denigrate all religions equally. They. All. Suck.

[boppers]

10. Democracy has no room for a holy book. That's theocracy.

Sure, war is hell, but it doesn't justify theocracy, or the intellectual trappings thereof.

"a country that we invaded and occupied for no good reason"? Oh, we had 3,000+ good reasons. Of course, we have kind of finished most of the reasons off.

[MadHound]

16. Gee, tell that to the millions of Christians in our own country

And frankly, we have no legal or moral standing to impose any sort of political system on a foreign nation. If the Afghans want a theocracy, then they have every right to have one.

As far as what happened on 911, let me ask you, was a single Afghan part of that nineteen man team who took over those planes? Was there a single Afghan citizen who was involved in the leadership, planning or execution of that act?

Following your logic, we should have blown the states of Idaho and Kansas to hell and gone for "harboring" the terrorist who took out the OKC Federal building.

But we didn't do that, nope. Instead we carried out a very targeted operation to capture, try and then execute those terrorists. That is what should have happened after 911. Instead, we sent in the Army. Of course 911 simply provided a convenient excuse to carry out our imperial invasion, or have you forgotten that whole "carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs" offer that the Bush administration make to Afghanistan earlier in the summer of 2001?

[boppers]

26. We allow burning of bibles. It's a bit different.

"If the Afghans want a theocracy..."

That's not how Theocracy works. You are not allowed to want it, or not want it. You want it, or you are beaten and killed.

"Was there a single Afghan citizen who was involved in the leadership, planning or execution of that act?"

Way to misdirect, and yes.

"Following your logic, we should have blown the states of Idaho and Kansas to hell and gone for "harboring" the terrorist who took out the OKC Federal building. "

If they refused to arrest and extradite him, yes. They DIDN'T.

[MadHound]

29. Yes, but we're not talking about actions in the US, but actions in Afghanistan

Where we are conducting an illegal, immoral war of imperial occupation. Big difference.

No, I'm not misdirecting on this, it is all part and parcel of the same problem, insulting the people of a country that we are illegally and immorally occupying.

And can you name names of those Afghan citizens who were involved in the planning, leadership and execution of 911? No, you can't, because there weren't any.

So you would have been cool with blowing Idaho and Kansas to hell and gone? Geez, you are a bloodthirsty one. What about all those third world countries that don't extradite US criminals, should be blow them to hell and gone as well?

[boppers]

47. The Koran is not a country.

It cannot be insulted, or occupied. It's a book. Paper. Trash.

I've also been to Idaho and Kansas. There's not much to destroy.

If you can't be bothered to understand "citizenship" in the middle east, I'm not going to bother explaining it.

[Jack Sprat]

28. Madhoud, you don't have any legal or moral

standing to impose your beliefs on anybody either, but that hasn't ever stopped your trying. You get on your soapbox and judge everyone based on whatever is stuck in your craw all the time.

[MadHound]

30. Yes, but unlike US forces, I don't blow entire countries, or even individuals, to hell and gone

If they disagree with me, or happen to be rich in resources I covet.

Big difference.

[Jack Sprat]

38. and to that one argument,

you found plenty of agreement. But when you find any disagreement, then you can't handle it. I have found this to be a trend with you. You jump on that soapbox and demand every Democrat to fit your mold of perfection. When they don't, that's when you get busy behind the scenes to try to have them silenced or tombstoned, one or the other. The last thing you want is discussion or debate about a topic. You made a broad assumption and then seek complete, compliant agreement. That's not how discussion works.

[MadHound]

39. Gee, I don't see you standing behind me,

Watching everything I write and post on this board. So how can you say that I "get busy behind the scenes to try to have them silenced or tombstoned, one or the other."? Really, now can you know that unless you are standing right behind me.

You can't, you are simply making assumptions. The fact of the matter is that I rarely alert on any post, because I prefer that stupid shit put up by a poster is left for all to see. As far as tombstoning somebody, the only two posters that I called for a tombstone on were recent ones. One poster was sending death threats to a lot of DUer's, the other poster was an obvious robo-spam that needed to be deleted.

But I find it funny, in a sad, hypocritical way, that you are exhibiting the very same traits that you accuse me of. You can't handle disagreement, this over the top rant of yours proves that. You accuse me of working behind the scenes, and thus you are trying to shut down discussion in this thread. Face it, you are exhibiting all the traits that you accuse me of.

For that reason alone, I won't alert on your post. After all, like I said earlier, I believe in leaving the stupid up for all to see.

[Jack Sprat]

41. No. No you don't.

I wouldn't suggest that if there had not been another instance. It's just I have found it difficult to ever respond to your OPs without an alert on me. Coincidence? M..a..y..b..e. P..o..s..s..i..b..l..y, but I don't think so. And when I look back at what I said, I'm wondering each time......WHY? Because I disagreed with you????

[MadHound]

43. Again, you are dealing with assumptions

Rather than fact. You are drawing conclusions from correlations, always a logical fallacy.

Have you ever thought that the reason your posts get alerted on is because the violate the TOS of these boards? I mean really now, after all, your post to me is accusing me of somehow being some sort of behind the scenes svengali who is able to get posts hidden and posters tombstoned whenever I want. Don't you see how crazy that sounds? Don't you understand that off the wall posts like that are, indeed, violations of the TOS of this board? You can't do such things without getting alerts.

I assure you, I don't alert on you, or hardly anybody else. Like I said earlier, I believe in leaving the stupid up for everybody to see. Not to mention that, quite frankly, you barely register on my DU radar, so I really have no reason to go after you(though apparently I register on your radar, I still find it rather creepy, in a stalkerish sort of way, how closely you are following me). Finally, if you think I try to shut down opposition, somehow, someway, I suggest that you go back through my extensive, perhaps even epic, battles I've had with a number of different people. That numerous opposition posts, far more than the total number of posts you made, are still standing, unalerted, should show you that I take on people head on, and don't alert on what they say, just because it is different from what I think.

[pinboy3niner]

45. Your magical powers have been exposed

Please don't give me a pizza!

[Jack Sprat]

46. So very glad you put it in type

If I violated the TOS of this board, then the jury itself did not think so. This means that you disrepect juries as well as individual posters.

Let me point this out in a hopefully obvious way by using your own words above as an example of how you operated in the past and now in the present. You said:

Like I said earlier, I believe in leaving the stupid up for everybody to see.


Anyone who disagrees with you on any point as I have on two occasions recently, automatically draws not only your ire, but an insult to go with it. Do you see anywhere in this post where I have insulted you in any form, backhanded or elsewise? Look at that underlined comment again because I am going to reference it again. To your form, you view any disagreement to your commentary as being necessarily "stupid". There's no room for self-reflection, just your logical conclusion that someone is stupid if they oppose your viewpoint.

It is very often the case when personal insults lead to jury decisions and generally the reactions to insults that inevitably lead to TOS violations. Most people have learned over time and experience the methods some posters use to bait (with insults) and then silence (with tombstones or jury alerts).

So, I am grateful that you have your own words to view up and down this thread. I hope that you are now aware that at least this one poster believes firmly that any discussion with you ends up not being a discussion at all, but rather is a denigrating and even perilous venture.

It should be noted that I was only aware of the Jury alert and their decision because another poster openly objected in a separate post on this forum. There are jury decisions all the time and we never are allowed to see the outcome unless we participated on the jury itself. But, this one was publicized in another thread by the alertee themselves, which justifies my reference to it as public knowledge. My thanks to those on the jury who patiently rendered the decision in my favor.

[Fortran]

13. How is the accidental burning of a "holy" * book cultural insensitivity?

As fucking insane as Rick Santorum is, he was absolutely right when he said we didn't need to apologize for a mistake. Bah.

*or any other book

I absolutely agree our troops should be immediately if not sooner withdrawn but that is
actually an entirely different discussion.

[MadHound]

17. Wow, thanks for proving my point

Agreeing with the Santorum man now, proves my point perfectly. Thanks.

[Fortran]

18. I don't look at everything and everyone in binary terms. There are times when a Republican is right

and times when a Democrat is wrong. Do you think otherwise?

[MadHound]

19. There are times when a Republican is right

But when they are being culturally insensitive, don't grasp the history behind the act, and are using the event as a way to further demonize a culture and religion, then this isn't one of those times.

[Fortran]

23. Yeah, well, I guess I should just embrace a religion that thinks I as a gay man should be hanged.

F them...I don't consider their gutter religion to be anything more than homophobic shit.

[MadHound]

27. And what religion are you talking about, Islam or Christianity?

Again, thanks for proving my original point. You are a classic case in point, keep up with the posting here.

[markpkessinger]

52. American evangelicals were behind the push in Uganda for capital punishment for gay people...

... does that make all of Christianity a gutter religion as well? And if not, why not?

[SomethingFishy]

22. A mistake? Like Oops I accidentally threw your book

on this bonfire? Or like Oops I accidentally spilled gasoline on your book, let me clean it off with a match? Or like Oops I accidentally burned all these books in an incinerator?

The act of burning the books or "the mistake" as you and Santorum like to call it, was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

How did America respond last time our country was "invaded"? Oh yeah we dropped a fucking nuke on two of their cities.

How did America respond last time someone attacked us? We went and bombed 2 totally different countries.

Rick Santorum is an asshole and he was not "right". We invaded their country and burned their holy book. They are rioting. What would we be doing if they did that to us?

Well judging from our history we would be bombing them back to the stone age.

I love how people are so "oh we would never do anything like that". No we wouldn't, we would do much worse.

[Fortran]

15. Well, it sure is a convenient excuse...

[Fuzz]

31. I honestly don't care if we accidentally offend religious fanatics, of any stripe.

It wasn't purposely done and an apology was and is fine, but fuck anyone who thinks it's ok to kill over this or over abortion etc.

[MadHound]

34. Yeah, but after a decade plus in country,

And repeating this same mistake, you think we would learn, and have procedures in place so this wouldn't happen again.

[Union Scribe]

31. There are a lot of things going on here

and while they all intersect at certain points, I'm not convinced in a causal relationship amongst them.

1. Of course we should leave. We have no place there and never did, but...
2. the Koran is a physical object, and people willing to kill others over a replaceable object are pretty much always wrong. In fact I can't think of a situation where that's something I can muster sympathy for. I know it's logical to conclude it can't be just because of the books being burned, but that really does seem to be the case. Consider the Dutch cartoons. Some people really will carry out mayhem over such a slight, and...
3. comments about Islam here are more an indicator of the deliberately intolerant nature many here have toward any religion versus anything specifically about US policy overseas or this controversy in particular, or even ethnocentrism.

[MadHound]

35. I agree with you about the Quran simply being an object

But that is our view, in our country. We are over there, in their country, dealing with their views. We should at least show a bit of respect while we are killing them and destroying their country, don't you think? After all, we're supposed to be winning hearts and minds, etc.

[Union Scribe]

36. No doubt there.

The US as a government and the US as a people should certainly try to be more aware when it comes to these things. As occupiers, though, I'd have to wonder if anything we do could be anything more than the appearance of cultural sensitivity.

[TheKentuckian]

48. Yeah, not be blatantly fucking stupid.

If the Pentagon and State where astute enough to be all over that dumbass preacher a year or two ago and dealing with the blowback there is no plausible excuse and the reaction should damn well be counted on.

We have been over there for years and the CIA was in eyes deep for decades before. To pretend we don't clearly know better is willful delusion.

The stupidity and foreknowledge of the reaction are so bold and underlined that I see little reason to believe the events weren't purposefully orchestrated looking for a hornet's nest.

Let's be serious, we know they know better at any level capable of giving orders.

We know because we saw the system spring into action to stop the silly fucker in Florida and mitigate the harm and seperate his actions from those of our government.

[Robb]

50. Perhaps we should occupy more religious countries

... to help your particular brand of respect for religious sensibilities gain more traction.

Apologize? One might accuse you of kowtowing to theocrats here. Perhaps if we bombed more Christians?

[Taverner]

51. The Koran is like any other religious text

100% pure fucking bullshit

Pardon me if I feel more empathy for Muslims than I do their stupid book