Ed Schultz EXPOSES Cause Of Racism In The South

[Segami]

Last Friday MSNBC’s Ed Schultz had a town hall in Alabama. He wanted to go to the Deep South and talk directly to the people. He complained about the right wing talking heads using a narrative of dependency as well as race bating to create a level of angst within the white community. You have to wonder if he expected to have two women in the audience with relevant stories that put it all in a microcosm. The following is the transcript of the video that follows. The two women made explosive accusations against many white churches in the South and against local Republican Parties. While many may find what they are saying hard to believe I have had many Republicans in our local Baptist churches tell me similar stories.

ED Schultz: Last Friday night I did a town hall meeting in Birmingham Alabama…This is what an Alabama public school teacher came to the microphone and said.

Alabama Teacher: I have been a part of public education since 1970, when the schools were first integrated. I see more hatred in the South now than I ever saw in 1970 and I will tell you why. It’s been preached in the pulpit. It’s in the White churches. They are teaching people that if you vote anything but Republican, you are going to hell pretty much.

ED Schultz: Oh! They are preaching it and people are buying it. One Alabama state legislator told me a chilling story about a recent attempt to segregate a local school.

Alabama Legislator: I got a call this week from a White female Republican. We have a school district in our county that has made an application to become independent. The reason she called me was because in the church this past Sunday, they were bullied and told you’ve got to support this school district pulling away from the county so we can minimize the number of blacks that are in our school district. Even though she was Republican she was disheartened because she says she never looked at the party from that perspective.

Many believe that Americans spend too much time on race issues. The reality is that it is important to do so, especially now. The right wing’s southern strategy is in full vogue, and what makes the women’s statement important is the context. Martin Luther King said the most segregated hour in America is at 11:00 on Sunday mornings, during church services. That presents several realities. It allows those of ill will to use that homogeneity to indoctrinate and to foment a false reality to be feared, a fear of the ‘the other’.



cont'



http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/08/28/ed-schultz-exposes-cause-of-racism-in-the-south-video/

[ananda]

1. What kind of people continue following a church that preaches hate?

..

[sufrommich]

3. Hateful people who want to believe

their bigotry is approved by their god.

[obxhead]

67. More like stupid people

that believe that man in the church preaching hate is actually speaking for God.

[volstork]

78. Stupid and hateful

are not necessarily mutually exclusive. In my experience, they all too often go hand-in-hand.

[ailsagirl]

119. And severely, supremely IGNORANT

[TroglodyteScholar]

112. Hatred may be an ingredient sometimes...

...but I think it's more about having someone to blame for all the shitty things in your own life.

You're miserable in your low paying job? There's probably some way to blame minorities for wage stagnation. You think taxes are too high? Of course, all those colored urban-dwellers are responsible for that. Scared of violent crime? It's a well-documented fact that black and brown people are the only ones capable of harming another human senselessly or otherwise.

This is the mindset I observed during my first 28 years in the south. Not that minorities are simply to be hated (although there is some of that)...but much more frequently these people feel like, in one way or another, they've been victimized by minorities. And yes, churches will find ways to blame "the other" for whatever form or moral decline they perceive around them. White people who take this bait, obviously, will give also other white people infinite benefit of the doubt in situations of conflict with minorities. It is supremely ignorant and contemptible, but I don't think it's generally driven by hatred...just fear and mediocrity.

[get the red out]

7. It's fear

People go to the same churches their parents and grandparents went to, somewhere along the line the Republican Party took over many of these churches via the "moral majority". It isn't official, but it might as well be. So the preachers go along with the moral majority, Jerry Falwell agenda and it starts morphing into an "us" against "them". Here comes right wing radio paying into this and the Fox News and the lines are drawn without the people doing anything different than attending the churches of their ancestors, the churches they were raised in. The pressure to fear the "other" is all around them in their church home, in their community. They feel the fear before they ever recognize what is happening, by now a whole generation has been raised with it.

[Lithos]

20. I disagree..

The issue is that people are *NOT* going to the churches of their parents or grand parents. 75 years ago the number of "evangelical" church attendance was a much smaller percentage when compared to Methodist, Lutheran and other main stream Protestant religions. What has happened is that during the 70's and 80's, the Evangelical movement became a "social" movement attracting those who had moved away from their extended families. People shopped for their churches based on things other than family tradition. Typically the attraction is "social" where people are seeking acceptance as part of a group. The Conservative group which has a lot of bigots has coopted this to push their own social messages.

[MatthewStLouis]

31. You have a great point.

My family had many problems with our Southern Baptist church, based on politics. The Southern Baptists got really hot and heavy with the conservatives back in the 80's. And yes, for good or ill, they are great at outreach.

[get the red out]

39. Steeple jacking

That is true where these new "mega-churches" are concerned. In areas without these (and there are many areas that just don't have the population for these) there has been a lot of Steeple jacking or going more right wing.

I am sure the big mega-churches fill up because of a desire for social acceptance, they often target people who are disenfranchised for various reasons then brain-wash the hell out of them.

Drug abuse has really helped the right a lot too. People in communities drowning in Meth and/or Oxycontin abuse need support and look for answers and help for themselves and their loved ones. Churches are open and available.

[mac56]

106. ^ THIS ^

[Bernardo de La Paz]

113. Does your applause refer to post #20 or #39? If it is the latter, then reply to the latter. If the

Does your applause refer to post #20 or #39? If it is the latter, then reply directly to the latter. If the former, then the up-pointing carets are misplaced.

[markpkessinger]

121. Brilliant, spot-on analysis!

Says this Episcopalian.

[DallasNE]

132. Not In The Cities

Not the whites at least. They long ago fled the older parts of town from their childhood years for the suburbs and a new church or even new cities. A lot of baby boomers dropped religion during the 60's and when the returned to the church it was a much more conservative church that the one they dropped all of those years earlier. When you drive by the mega-churches on Sunday the parking lots are packed but other church parking lots have plenty of available parking. At least that is my observation.

[JoeyT]

26. People that were taught to accept whatever

is said to them without asking questions or thinking critically.

In theory protestants don't believe their preacher has a direct line from God. In practice, I'd be willing to bet not a single one of the ones I know have actually ever read the bibles they drag around (And gift to me incessantly. Ironic since I'm the only one of the lot that's ever read it.), they just accept whatever their preacher tells them at face value. I strongly doubt they ever even skimmed it and read the parts that are in red.

[get the red out]

40. I agree completely

[Spitfire of ATJ]

66. The really annoying ones are the people who preach Right Wing crap,....

And they believe tuning in to Robertson's 700 Club or Van Impe is the SAME as going to church.

[FiveGoodMen]

51. Southern Baptists

[johnsolaris]

118. New President

Hi,

The Southern Baptists elected a Black President at their last Convention. He is the spiritual leader of all Southern Baptist, you can look it up. I have a friend who is Southern Baptist & he told me there was not a mass exodus after the election & the Congregations seem to want to stick it out & change their image. Are there any Southern Baptist out there who can tell us how it is going in the church with this big change ?

[jtuck004]

92. millions of them... n/t

[atreides1]

101. Christians, in this case!

At least that's what they'll say if asked!

[rvt1000rr]

120. It begs the question:

"Have you become a bigot because of your religious instruction or do you embrace your religion because it validates your bigotry?"

[DallasNE]

129. Someone Looking For Validation Of Their Own Hate

And what could be better than hiding behind the church.

Listen to Rand Paul closely some time. He frames everything with a racial component so they now feel safe to openly spout racist sentiments.

[TheMadMonk]

130. People EXACTLY like the many respondents below.

People who scream their own hatred as they hypocritically put the boots into someone else for their hatreds.

"Idiots", "stupid", "Ignorant",... pejoratives abound.

When people utter words like these, they might as well be talking about themselves. And the world would be a far better place if they fucking well listened.

[busterbrown]

137. People who generally hate their lives..Wives ignored by husband, children ignored by parents and

everyone in family is generally pissed off...Must be the Gay’s or Black’s who are at fault..Keep coming to Church and drop your money into the basket and I’ll give you the answers...But keep coming...I need to make my car and Mortgage payment..

[JaneyVee]

2. That holy water must be poisoned.

[dembotoz]

4. anticipate there is truth in this

[JEFF9K]

5. RAPTURE REPUBLICANS

Ya gotta love those RAPTURE REPUBLICANS. (Not)

[truebluegreen]

27. I wish Somebody would "rapture" them...

the rest of us would be happier.

[CherokeeDem]

6. I have experienced the hate in a white church.

Over ten years ago, when I lived in Miami, I visited friends who lived in Naples (I had lived there before). I knew my friends were very religious but when I lived there, I was never asked to attend church services with them; my friend was aware I was not religious. But one Sunday when I went over to see them, it happened to be her mother's birthday and her mother wanted to go to church, then dinner. So I went.

We sat near the front of this very large and well-appointed Baptist church and about half-way through all I wanted to do was bolt out of the front door, drive back to Miami, head for South Beach and have a drink. I was subjected to a sermon not about the teachings and good works of God and Jesus but about the Republican Party. The minister never used the word Republican but the code words were rampant through his 'sermon.' He attacked women in the workplace, abortion, welfare, you name it...and all in the name of God. I have never sat through anything that made me so uncomfortable, or so angry. Yet, in deference to my friends, I sat there. Neither of my friends appeared to be overtly prejudiced, I already knew they were conservatives. I can deal with that, but I couldn't deal with the ranting of their church.

I have always felt everyone had the right to their own beliefs. However, when a religion chooses not to be pious but prejudiced, they don't have that right.

[get the red out]

8. Well said

Growing up in Appalachia, I've known for years that the big problem was the Republican control of so many churches. People have become so hateful now, when I was a kid people didn't care who their neighbors voted for or what church they went to, now it's us against them. Sickening.

[riverbendviewgal]

114. have you read joe bageant's books?

He too grew up in Appalachia. I highly recommend his books Deer Hunting with JESUS. And Rainbow pie. You can read his blog on line. I read them both and wrote too him before he died. He wrote back to me too. He does write through his books on how religion is all most of these literally poor people have and how the politicians use these and work through the churches.

[Zorro]

12. I've witnessed the same at a Southern Baptist church in the Florida panhandle

I typically attend with my mother when I visit her, and it's quite disturbing to hear the name of "Jaysus" invoked/chanted throughout the sermon but not the message of the Prince of Peace -- only ignorant, divisive Republican talking points.

[fasttense]

22. I thought I had found a church in east TN that was not racist.

It was a Lutheran church with a great history. There were a few racists but I could see that the preacher was trying to change them. He worked very hard to be fair and not hit the roof when one of the racist threw out a slur. He would quietly confront the racist and the person would leave agreeing with the preacher. And then the preacher changed. I started hearing RW talking points being thrown out at the pulpit. Soon the whole sermon was nothing but a Fox News summary. I quit the church.

[hfojvt]

34. I missed the hate in your story, especially race hate

you mentioned abortion, and yes, many churches are very strongly opposed to abortion. You mentioned women in the workplace, and I find that kinda surprising. Because at the (Southern) Baptist church I have been attending for the last year or so, many, if not most of the women who also attend there - are in the workplace.

And the business about race hate doesn't ring true to me either. Certainly not in the churches I attend. For one thing, of the twenty or so people who attend the evening services, there is at least one black guy. The same is true in the Methodist and Presbyterian churches that I have also attended (sparsely). They are maybe 95% white, but not 100%. The Methodist church for a time had a pastor who was Phillipino.

Of course, Methodist churches are more liberal denominations. But I quickly find at least three Methodist churches in Atlanta, and 7 of them in Columbia, South Carolina. Tell me the Methodist churches are preaching race hatred - I don't believe it for a second. Even if the congregations wanted them to, Methodists don't get to choose their own pastors - the Bishop does it.

Although, sadly, I know the history of the Methodist church. At least they told me at the AME church that that branch was started because the white Methodists were not welcoming to the Black methodists - did not want to sit with them.

This city where I live is about 85% white, and even here the "white" churches are not pure white. Nor are they isolated. I have attended the Thanksgiving dinner done by the Lutherans, and talked to one of the black men working as a volunteer. Here I was thinking that the Lutherans were more integrated than the Methodists, but it turned out he was from a "black" church. But the two (or more) churches were cooperating to put together this Thanksgiving dinner. So I don't believe they are preaching any kind of racial hatred in the Lutheran church either.

At least not in this town, which admittedly is not that far south.

[JDPriestly]

42. You are correct. Methodist churches would be the least likely to preach against racial

equality. There probably are exceptions, but I think the Methodist Churches are integrated at the top.

Meet the Ohio bishop for the United Methodist Church

Bishop Gregory Palmer

http://www.google.com/search?q=Methodist+bishop+Ohio&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.51156542,d.cGE,pv.xjs.s.en_US.iz6Z5q8RWbs.O&biw=1024&bih=480&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=7xEeUsj4EKWJiAKD14HwBQ#fp=1b316031d410a2e0&hl=en&q=Bishop+Gregory+Palmer&tbm=isch&um=1

He was educated in the Philadelphia public schools. In 1976 he earned the B.A. degree at George Washington University. His M.Div. degree is from the Duke Divinity School (1979). Palmer was awarded an honorary D.D. from Baldwin-Wallace College in 1999.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_V._Palmer

I have not heard anything negative about him from my Methodist friends.

And North Alabama United Methodist Church has a female bishop.

The Rev. Debra Wallace-Padgett, elected the first woman bishop for the North Alabama Conference of the United Methodist Church, said she hopes to work toward renewal in the church.

She will take office Sept. 1, succeeding Bishop William Willimon, who retires at the end of August.

“The United Methodist Church in the United States is ripe for renewal,” said Wallace-Padgett, who was consecrated Friday as a bishop after her election Wednesday night.

The 7.8 million-member United Methodist Church, the nation’s third-largest denomination after Catholics and Southern Baptists, has lost millions of members over the past several decades.

http://www.canterburyumc.org/bishop

So, if you want to strengthen liberal Christianity, check out your local Methodist Church.

Personally, I am a Unitarian. People of all races (and most creeds) are welcome among Unitarians.

[happyslug]

115. Methodists are weak in the South

Yes, there are Methodists in the South (as they are Catholics) but due to the Methodists embracing abolitionism in the early 1800, it became a non-entity in the south. In was, and is strong is post Civil War Republican Strongholds in the South (Appalachia and the Dallas area of Texas) but not elsewhere.

[Go Vols]

141. Methodists churches are everywhere here

I grew up going to one,my father still goes and I ask him regularly if they preach against Democrats(he is a lifelong Dem) and he says they don't.He most likely wouldn't go if they did.

[happyslug]

142. Tennessee, the only State the succeeded that did NOT have a Military Governor.

After the war, Tennessee adopted the Thirteenth amendment forbidding slave-holding or involuntary servitude on February 22, 1865; ratified the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution on July 18, 1866; and was the first state readmitted to the Union on July 24, 1866.

Because it ratified the Fourteenth Amendment, Tennessee was the only state that seceded from the Union that did not have a military governor during Reconstruction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tennessee#Reconstruction_and_Jim_Crow

http://www.tncivilwar.org/research_resources/reconstruction

Tennessee was the only State that succeeded that had a Senator in the US Senate after 1861 (Andrew Johnson, who remained a Senator till March 4, 1865 when he became Vice President under Lincoln, replacing Lincoln's first Vice President. Technically Lincoln and Johnson ran as "National Union" Candidates for the Presidency in 1864, NOT as Republicans).

Tennessee (along with Louisiana) voted for Lincoln in the 1864 Presidential election (Through Congress declined to count their votes, which were not needed anyway).



Remember Tennessee was considered to far north for Cotton (as where Virginia and North Carolina, through some common is grown in all three states), some Cotton was and is grown in Tennessee, but the big cotton producing states are all south of Tennessee and North Carolina.

http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Publications/2002/Ag_Atlas_Maps/Crops_and_Plants/Field_Crops_Harvested/Cotton/Upland%20Cotton,%20Harvested%20Acres-chor.gif

[CherokeeDem]

68. While I am not religious....

the majority of my family members are Methodists, and I attended a Methodist Church for most of my childhood. I fully agree the Methodists are much more liberal and less likely to preach hatred. However, there is that little pesky problem with the AME churches.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough, the minister in the Baptist church service in Naples, Fl was preaching Right Wing talking points, I only listed a few of the topics he ranted about. While many denominations certainly oppose abortion, his rhetoric surpassed the usual condemnations. As for women's rights and working women, when someone stresses 'traditional family values and traditional family roles, along with the importance of a mother at home, you do the math. There is only one conclusion to be reached regarding that opinion.

Naples is a very white and very conservative town. There is a very large Mexican and Jamaican/Haitian population but they are relegated to the outskirts of town. There wasn't a face of color in the entire congregation the day I attended that service.

The fact is that churches are located in communities and their attendees will reflect that community. So you are correct, not all churches are segregated for ulterior purposes. However, the Republican Party has used the bully pulpit to dispense their venom. As one poster expressed in another reply to the OP, often people use their church to validate their views.

As for the Southern location, I grew up in South Carolina and the South Carolina of today is not one I recognize. So much more hatred and bitterness than I remember growing up. I personally feel that racism is prevalent in all corners of this country but more visible in the South. It would be nice if that wasn't the case.

[7962]

86. You beat me to it! And I do live in the south

To be fair, I imagine it's hard to find a black church not preaching to vote Democratic.
I used to watch Ed a lot, but I lost a lot of respect for him when he used altered recordings on his show and wouldn't apologize when he got caught. There's enough stupid stuff actually said to not have to make stuff up. Not that he made this stuff up, i'm just automatically suspicious.
You'd never see Maddow doing it.

[hfojvt]

95. I feel like there are probably some churches who do it

Preach Republican talking points. I stopped at one church while I was campaigning and talked to the pastor and he started talking about the 47% who don't pay taxes. And there was Rick Warren with his pro-Bush tax cuts tweet and stuff. But to generalize it to all churches in the South, not just preaching Republican social policies, but also preaching racism. There are probably some of them, but not that many, certainly not all, or perhaps even a majority.

And to make this generalization based on anecdotes from two people.

Seems like a mighty leap to me.

I hate to even call churches black and white, because there is nothing to prevent black people from joining "white" churches, or vice versa. I went to the Baptist Church down the street that is almost all black (there may even have been another white person there that day, I cannot remember for sure) and also got invited to a singing service at the AME church from some people who were at the Obama rally. In neither place did I pick up a "we don't want any white people in this church" vibe.

But there did seem to be some different traditions which might keep white people out. In the AME church I noticed that they sang the hymns kinda slooooow. I was used to a more up-tempo, and did not really like the slow. In the other church, their service was looong. Again, the music was different too, this singing was more like the sort of cliche of a black church one might see on TV or in a movie, with the swaying and the clapping. Again, not really my cup of tea, although I tried to get into it. But it was like an hour and a half and the sermon had not even started.

I mean, dang, I usally like to get in and out in less than an hour, and I think even THAT is long. I think churches should try to shoot for 45 minutes and they would do better. Instead people get up on Sunday and will often think "I should go to church." and then they think "Aw man, do I have to? It's gonna take all day and be sooo boring." If that was not the case, then more people might go.

[cilla4progress]

57. Had a similar experience

I attended a "Presbyterian" church with our S. Korean exchange student. (I'm a card-carrying Unitarian, of the Pagan persuasion. Don't attend any organized church much anymore...spend my Sundays outdoors worshipping Gaia, nowadays.)

The "minister" in the pulpit launched an attack on "liberal religion" that was an unveiled attack on the left! I gathered my young daughter close and told her NO WAY should she eat the little piece of bread (communion) being handed around...it was a TRAP!

All I could do was look away, and imagine a very sad, angry, ashamed, raggedly dressed man from the 1st century A.D. listening at the back of the church shaking his head no, no, NO at the violation of his message.

[uponit7771]

73. +1

[malaise]

9. K & R

Watched this live yesterday

[1awake]

10. I attend church services every week

and have most of my life. Never have I ever heard such a thing being preached, nor have I heard a preacher discuss political issues. Having said that, I don't doubt for one second that these things aren't going on.

Any "church" that preaches hate, racial separation, or anything else similar to these things is NOT a church of any religion I believe in and is false. Personally, I believe these so called church's should be leveled... non personally they should loose they're designation and be taxed. Any national religious organization (if any) that backs these places need to take it upon themselves to fix or sever ties because in my opinion they are just as accountable.

1awake

[B Calm]

41. How does your church feel about gays?

[wryter2000]

46. At my church

Our LGBT members are full and equal members of the congregation, and their families are valued and treated the same as the families of our non-LGBT members. While our rector has been out of town, we've had a gay priest sitting in. He speaks openly and happily about his husband. They're newlyweds.

I don't doubt the truth of the OP, but I can't imagine going to a church that preached hate. I'd have to leave as soon as I realized what was going on. BTW, a friend of mine left his church (where his father had been the minister) when they passed out a right wing voting guide.

[jtuck004]

94. You know what? They don't give a flying fuck about what you think. There are millions of these

people attending these little hate factories, every week, week in and week out. They give their money, they give their time. They train and steep their children in that hatred, and in their business they resent any government intrusion that forces them to act otherwise.

Sometimes it is subtle, sometimes it isn't, and sometimes it's out-and-out in your face rabid hatred of anyone they see as different.

And they all feel closer to GOD for it. And if you disagree wtih them, YOU are the one that is wrong and misled.

There are thousands of decent churches out there, but I am not so sure they outnumber the others any longer. Hate, for some reason, lends itself to more frequent breeding than goodness.

[abelenkpe]

11. My parents

Live in the south. They used to never go to church, vote democratic and be quite tolerant. Then 911 happened, they started watching FOX news and going to church regularly. Now I cannot talk to them for more than twenty minutes without them saying some hateful nasty bigoted crap. I've been mostly blaming FOX but know their church reinforces their new found extreme views.

Funny thing is they can spend a weekend doing charity work to benefit people far away while simultaneously complaining about poor people here.

They are nuts.

[Historic NY]

13. All these churches operate tax free to play "pulpit politics"....

to spread the message of the Republican Idealogy,

[Stinky The Clown]

14. "Tales of the American Taliban"

That would be a good title for a book that is a compendium of this sort of story. No doubt there are countless examples of such institutional hatred.

This is organized and centrally controlled. Who remembers Ralph Reed and his crew?

[FSogol]

15. Tax the Churches.

[LTX]

81. Bad idea. n/t

[FSogol]

82. Why? n/t

[LTX]

83. You would drive smaller churches out of existence

and consolidate power and influence in mega-churches, which would then be free to exercise even greater, and overt, political influence. For a small church (75 or fewer congregants), its principal assets are its buildings and land, frequently in rather prime locations. Tack a 20 to 50 thousand dollar tax bill on to those churches, and they simply cease to exist.

As it is, "The median church in the U.S. has 75 regular participants in worship on Sunday mornings, according to the National Congregations Study (NCS) http://www.soc.duke.edu/natcong/ . Notice that researchers measured the median church size — the point at which half the churches are smaller and half the churches are larger — rather than the average (186 attenders reported by the USCLS survey http://www.uscongregations.org/charact-cong.htm ), which is larger due to the influence of very large churches. But while the United States has a large number of very small churches, most people attend larger churches. The National Congregations Study estimated that the smaller churches draw only 11 percent of those who attend worship. Meanwhile, 50 percent of churchgoers attended the largest 10% of congregations (350 regular participants and up)."

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html#sizecong

This trend towards mega-churches (with their concomitant and almost invariably conservative political leanings and influence) would only be accelerated, with the counter influence of smaller, progressive congregations diminished or effectively eliminated.

You would also run into equality-effect problems, where minority congregations are penalized by elimination of infrastructure (in effect driving them underground), while mega-churches hum along as profit and influence centers.

[FSogol]

84. Ok, then just tax the churches that engage in politics.

They are supposed to do that already.

[LTX]

87. That is the most sensible solution,

but we don't seem able to get any kind of enforcement. The line is often pretty hard to draw, and the most egregious offenders seem to have the political clout to avoid penalty.

[eShirl]

16. these hatemongers are parasites in control of their hosts (certain churches)

The pulpit is a nice propaganda platform if you can get it, I suppose.

[drynberg]

17. THIS IS ED AT WORK

I for one, am proud and so glad. TRUTH.

[redstatebluegirl]

18. Here in Oklahoma

I have had people tell me that they "heard it in church" when they say something shockingly racial. Since we don't attend those churches I have no personal knowledge, but I know it is going on based on where people say they hear these things. Of course Fox is second in line....

[mountain grammy]

19. I know this is true from my good, God fearing, Baptist inlaws in Texas.

Church and faith are the most important things in their lives. Jesus is the Lord and Savior and will make everything right; yeah, far, far right.
They love everyone, it's just that everyone isn't worthy of the love of Jesus or any kind of help from the godless government. The poor, immigrants, and people of color are not "real Christians," and especially Obama because he "bowed" to the Muslims (it's true, they saw it on fox.) That goes for Democrats too. They pray constantly for our souls. Between fox news and the preacher, they have all the answers.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

108. Black Couple Told They Can't Wed In Baptist Church (2012)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/27/wedding-banned_n_1711201.html

The couple had booked the church and distributed invitations only to find out that the church's congregation had decided that the Wilsons, an African American couple, could not tie the knot in their church.

"The church congregation had decided no black could be married at that church, and that if he went on to marry her, then they would vote [the pastor] out the church," Charles Wilson told Fox.

The Wilsons regularly attend the predominantly white church, though they are not members.

... The Deep South is still struggling with racism. In March, almost 30 percent of likely GOP voters polled said that they thought interracial marriage should be illegal.

[mountain grammy]

110. It always seems to be 30% of Americans who are bigoted, racist and homophobic.

that's a lot of people. 3 out of every 10. I run into them everyday, some are surprising. You think you know someone, then they let go of some awful racist slur or some equally stupid right wing talking point and you're stunned.

[stonecutter357]

21. K&R

[heaven05]

23. no suprise

the church in the south and north and west and east has always been racist. Period. In the south especially since slavery times it has continuously divided people along racial lines based on flawed and racially self serving interpretation(s) they make from the bible. How's that for kind?

[loudsue]

24. THIS IS SOOOOO TRUE!! In North Carolina....hot seat of the Southern Baptist Convention

I call it the Republican Baptist Church. They get so much $$$ from the republicans at their seminaries, they won't even pass kids that don't drink the right wing kool-aid. Every church you go to, whether for church, funerals, weddings, etc... you're going to hear some kind of right wing propaganda.

It makes me madder than most things, because it's the perfect captive audience for their propaganda. People who go there actually think they are trying to be "good folks", and they are being taught hate and fear.

[zazen]

58. FYI, the independent Baptists in NC are very progressive, though

Pullen Memorial Baptist in Raleigh has played a founding, leading role in the Moral Monday protest movement, as has its sister church, Binkley Baptist, in Chapel Hill. A visiting gay minister gave a sermon at Pullen two weeks ago about what those in traditional marriages could learn from LGBT partnerships.

My whiskeypalian mother still cannot believe how progressive the Baptists are here, but I think grounding social justice in what I think is a more accurate interpretation of Christ's teaching is very, very powerful.

[Stonepounder]

25. This so-called Christianity is a cruel hoax.

I've listened to people who go to these type of churches and what they are hearing preached is NOT Christianity. They can invoke the name of Jesus all they want, but if you listen, they never quote him. They quote from the Old Testament, they quote from Revelations. But the never quote Christ. You never hear 'Love they neighbor as thyself'. You never hear 'inasmuch as you have done this unto the least of these my brethren, ye have also dune this unto me'. You never hear 'let he who is without sin cast out the first stone'. You never hear the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Sorry, folks, if you aren't teaching the philosophy of the man you claim to worship, you ain't no Christian. If you don't try and practice what he taught, you can't call yourself a Christian.

If all you believe is the fire and brimstone of the Old Testament, you are NOT a Christian. Think about it, the 'Old' Testament was before the coming of Jesus. The 'New' Testament changed things from a God of wrath and vengeance to a God of love and mercy. If you are a 'wrath and vengeance' type, they you have rejected the teachings of Christ and all he stood for. If that is what you believe, fine. But don't you dare call yourself a Christian.

[maddiemom]

74. Very well said!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

90. Have you read these parts of the New Testament?

Matthew 5:17? Jesus does not abolish the law of the OT, he's supplanting it. He's not replacing it with kindness.

There's plenty of fire and brimstone and cruelty in the words of Jesus. It's just that peaceful Christians ignore them. They pretend that Jesus is always a nice guy, rather than repeating the cruelties of the OT.

A small part of the cruelty & injustice Jesus speaks in favor of in the NT, all these are from the Gospel of Matthew:

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21



Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen 19:24). 10:14-15

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

.Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50


Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

Jesus also hates a living thing: A fig tree. And because of the curse, it withers and dies. He cursed it because it was not fruiting because of the wrong season to fruit.
Mark 11:12-14 and 11:20

Way to be positive and encourage life, Jesus.

===============
I don't know why there is not a church who ONLY reads the good parts of the NT and ignores and disowns the bad stuff.

The churches I've seen do not disown the canonical parts that are cruel.


Everytime I point out the mean stuff in the NT, where Jesus is busy condoning mass slaughter or murder for foolish reasons or sending somebody to hell, somebody at DU gets mad at me for pointing out that it's there. Not my fault it's in your bible and mine too.

It doesn't surprise me that churches use intolerant and hateful verses, no matter whether from OT or NT, to justify their hate. Paul was a woman-hater and body-hater as well.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

107. god hates fags figs:

[happyslug]

128. I love people who take things out of Context, people use the bible that way all the time

"Matthew 5:17? Jesus does not abolish the law of the OT, he's supplanting it. He's not replacing it with kindness."

Is in the Sermon on the Mound", the whole thrust before and after that sentence is for people to WORK TOGETHER and TOLERATE EACH OTHER:


5 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.

The Beatitudes

He said:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light

13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce

31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[f] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths

33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Eye for Eye

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



"Jesus says that most people will go to hell. "7:13-14

9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.



The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.


Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

18 When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. 19 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.”

20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

21 Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”

22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

23 Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. 24 Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25 The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!”

26 He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.


Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

32 He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen 19:24). 10:14-15

9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.


Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21


21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.


Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”


.Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

31 He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”

33 He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:

“I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”


36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.


Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37


32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.


God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Jesus also hates a living thing: A fig tree. And because of the curse, it withers and dies. He cursed it because it was not fruiting because of the wrong season to fruit.
Mark 11:12-14 and 11:20

12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.

15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’[c]? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’[d]”

18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.

Notice those comments you cite, when put in context is telling people to help each other (i.e. do what is in the beatitudes), not to go out and fight people.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

133. You still have not refuted a lot of the cruelty in the original quotes.

So Jesus is gonna uphold the law, the "jot and tittle" part of the KJV?

All 613 of them in Leviticus, it looks like.

So much for throwing out any part of the OT.

Jewish prayer shawls have 613 knotted fringes representing those laws.



"May no one ever eat fruit from you again." Why is that bolded? Jesus hates that fig tree and enjoys killing plants, I suppose.

Not a guy I would hire to do my landscaping.

[happyslug]

140. I Bolded,.because you cite it. That is all

I wanted to make sure I put what you were quoting in the proper context.

As to the Fig Tree, Tradition says it died, but the actual quote is that it would bear no more fruit, which can mean it dies or becomes barren. The Traditional interpretation has been to look inviting is NOT enough, you must produce. Catholic attitude is you must not only believe, but do good works.

As to Leviticus, Jesus makes no mention of it at all, in fact disobeys it at various times:

1. in not washing before eating

2. dealing with a Non-jew in the form of the Centurion.

3. Picking Grain to eat AND curing one man of Leprosy on the Sabbath

Here is some cites that says Jesus did NOT violate Leviticus when he cured the person on the Sabbath, has to go through some hoops to do so, but in doing so clearly makes out the case that Leviticus are NOT to be strictly followed in the first place:
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2005/may-jun/did-jesus-break-the-sabbath
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jesusignorelaw.html

On top of the above violation of Leviticus, you have to understand Leviticus was to be modified by mercy, love and other alternatives. The classic case is Joseph and Mary. Joseph found Mary pregnant, and under Leviticus, he had the right to kill her in front of her father, but instead Joseph decided to "divorce her quietly". This is written up as if it was the most common solution in that situation, but that Leviticus did permit him to kill her. It was only after Joseph decided to divorce Mary, that the Angels appeared to him and told him NOT to do it. When Joseph decided to Divorce Mary Quietly, he was following old Jewish tradition to apply mercy and love to the harsh rules of Leviticus.

I bring up Joseph and Mary for mercy and love was crucial to Jewish law, for without BOTH, Leviticus was to harsh. Jesus message that he was to fulfill the law was to fulfill what most of the prophets had preached, to protect the poor, to treat each other with respect, to work together over and above the harsh rules of Leviticus (These were overwhelming themes among the prophets, Leviticus was NOT a work of any Prophet but a book found in the Temple that the Temple Priests said were the words of God).

One last comment on Leviticus, Peter actually would make it a church rule that Leviticus did not apply to non-Jewish Christians for it made no sense to impose those rules on non Jews.

Side note: Given preservation techniques of the time period and transportation methods, shell fish would be an abomination by the time they arrived in Jerusalem, it would have rotted so bad it would make people SICK if eaten in Jerusalem. In many ways Leviticus reflects what was good for and in Jerusalem, not outside that city. The condemnation of shell fish is the best example of this.

Keeping pigs in a desert community (such as the mid-east) would also be an "Abomination" for pigs use as much water as a person, unlike sheep and goats which need a lot less water. Those desert tribes that rejected Pigs, had more water for people (and thus more people to fight for the tribe) then tribes that raised pigs (Except areas of extensive water, the Nile Delta and Mesopotamia were the two big examples). Thus desert people (which included the Jews and the Arabs) tended to ban pigs, in favor of Goats and Sheep. In fact Arabs rejected horses till Mohammad made it a requirement to keep at least one for war for his followers (Camels could carry more, and use less water, Ox could haul greater loads, thus both were preferred by Arabs over Horses till Mohammad). Thus the ban on pigs among people in wet area made no sense, and thus dropped by Christians as they expanded into such areas,

[JNelson6563]

134. Thank you!

I get pretty tired of hearing how those bad Christians are wedded to the OT but the good ones are all NT and Jesus the prince of peace and whatnot.

They either haven't actually read the NT, their reading comprehension is terrible or they are in denial.

Thanks for serving up some reality here.

Julie

[Manifestor_of_Light]

135. You're welcome!!!

It's about F&^%@!$(*%$#ING TIME somebody noticed.


I know their bible a lot better than they do. And I'm not a Xtian anymore. Jesus was NOT a nice guy. Badly written book, edited by a committee with a political agenda (Apocrypha? Assorted noncanonical gospels?), and translated badly through four or five languages.


"Almah" is young woman, NOT "virgin"!! Oops, there goes the Virgin Mary..........


I had to take several religion courses in undergrad to get a BA at my small liberal arts college which was Presbyterian. Most of the religion profs had graduated from Princeton or Harvard. None of this teaching to non-religion majors was doctrine or theology based--surprise!!!


Learned fascinating things like Nature and Function of Religion and computer textual analysis of ancient languages taught by the most amazing linguist I've ever met. I'm talking "I used to be able to read clay tablets in Linear B from Babylonia" level of professor.

The Christians come back with "taken out of context" or "it was a metaphor, not reality" and other such dodges and sophistry known as apologetics.

The other day somebody on DU wanted to know why I used "xtian" because they didn't know that X in Greek is Chi as in "Xmas".
Or that X with an R over it is Chi-Rho, first two letters of "Christ".

Wonder when they'll find out that linguistically "Christ" is related to "Krishna"???
And "charisma"??? in Greek???

Jesus won't get NEAR any of MY plants!!!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

138. Dear Julie,

There are people on DU, I don't know how many, who think my handle is inappropriate. They think I am rude and confrontational.

They think I hate all things Xtian. I don't. I have a more nuanced view.
I've sung in numerous church choirs. I've sung solos in church. I've played the violin for Christmas Eve and Easter services. I've played the piano for church services. I've directed church choirs. And I enjoyed all this very much. Did it for the joy of it, not for money.

I listen to lots of ethereal church music in Latin. I've seen the Tallis Scholars in person. They're the best a cappella sacred choral group in the world.
Look them up on Youtube. You will be astonished and transported.


I watch Midnight Mass from Saint Peter's Cathedral in Rome because I love the fabulous Baroque architecture and art that Bernini and Michelangelo created. I've been to the Cathedral of Saint John the Divine in New York City and marveled over the splendor.

Some Xtians do bad things for bad doctrinal reasons, or to feed their ego, or pride or fool themselves over illogic and lack of apparent causality in their beliefs & actions.

For instance, does prayer work? Does god exist in the form the human mind imagines Him/Her/It/None of the Above? I've got problems with causality and evidence with those.

I want them to think. I want them to ask themselves if they are following the religion because they were told it was right and everyone around them followed that religion, and they did not think and ask questions, because disobedience to church authority is the ultimate sin.

Or do they follow it because they have decided it's a good guide to morality? It's impossible to follow because it's contradictory and quite antiquated. You'd get arrested. It can't adapt to 21st century living. It even has a thought crime in it like George Orwell talked about. Thinking about committing adultery is just as bad as actually doing the deed. Very totalitarian.

God spies on your mind all the time and knows what you think.

I was told on this board that all moral systems have contradictions and that it's not a big deal to recite a creed you don't believe in on Sunday in church. I guess they are immune to feeling like an utter fool when doing that. So their word and oath is worth nothing? I am asking. They say you can be a Xtian and not believe anything in particular, which to me strains credulity.

I have been told that the Xtians on DU don't know any pushy Xtians who interrupt conversations, are ignorant of the bible, and are happy to tell someone they are going to hell. Those things have all happened to me. Some very angry, negative people out there. Calling their religion what it really is offends them & they accuse me of "chutzpah". But the Xtians on DU all seem to attend liberal gay-friendly, non-woman-hating churches. I don't think they can see the big historical problems of thousands of years' standing.


There are moral systems that are consistent and deal with things like modern medicine, evolution, chemistry, and the fact that the earth is not flat and pi is not 3.

Are they just going along with the herd or did they think seriously about what they are letting a preacher put in their minds? Is it useful or is it just dressed up superstition and fables? Or village gossip, as my mother used to say?

[cordelia]

139. This nastiness AGAIN?

Taken out of context and utterly useless.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

144. "out of context". Yeah, plain words don't say what they say.

You think I'm nasty & mean for asking questions?


I'm not saying anyone is bad; I'm saying these beliefs can make some people do bad things in the name of religion. And bad things do not get excused just because of religion. Read some Christopher Hitchens.

Please read "Dear Julie" #138 again.


Do you believe this stuff because it's the only moral system you've ever known and your family and preacher tell you it's right, and you're afraid of their judgment or God's judgment?

Or have you thought seriously whether or not such a labyrinthine and illogical belief system helps you to be a better person?

Do you dare to think carefully about how strange this religion is? Are you aware of the need to hold conflicting beliefs to accept this religion? That is called "cognitive dissonance".

Are you accepting on faith with no evidence that anything you believe is true?

Why do you need such convoluted belief systems and accompanying rituals to be a GOOD PERSON? Should we not be good to each other because it's the right thing to do, as the Taoists believe (I'm quoting Lin Yutang, 1895-1976), rather than in fear of punishment from God?


Do you need the rituals and belief in an authority figure, whether human or godlike, as a psychological need? Sigmund Freud wrote a lot about that and so did Ludwig Feuerbach.


Christopher Hitchens asked for proof of a good deed done by a Christian that could not have been done without Christianity.

He was still waiting for that proof when he died in December of 2011.


Lin Yutang said in his book The Importance of Living, in the chapter Why I Am a Pagan,
"All I know is that if God loves me only half as much as my mother does, he will not send me to Hell. This is a final fact of my inner consciousness, and for no religion could I deny its truth." page 407.


My fundamentalist stepson laughed at me, LAUGHED AT ME as I told him this quote with tears in my eyes.


The Importance of Living is a wonderful book about a man whose parents were Christian missionaries and he became a Taoist. There's over 400 pages of fascinating philosophy there and I recommend it highly.


But you probably won't read it because I dare to question authority figures and besides, I'm a heathen.

[DinahMoeHum]

28. Understand, folks, the white churches FAILED these people long ago. . .

. . .when many of them were factory and mill workers.

In contrast, the black churches played a critical role in the civil rights struggles and victories in the last 50 years.

I came across an essay a few years back regarding the ruthless suppression of the Chiquola mill strike in Honea Path, SC, back in the 1930's.

http://www.salon.com/2010/09/07/southern_labor_history/

(snip)
The basic tenets of 20th-century progressive politics in America — unionism, the welfare state, public-safety regulations — all failed the mill-hands, the largest class of industrial workers in the South. And the failure was spectacular, a once-in-a-generation trauma. The inability of New Deal liberalism to bring on board the Southern white working class was, it seems in retrospect, its ultimate undoing. Who was it that voted for Wallace, then Nixon, then Reagan? The depressing question points to the politically weak people for whom racism was the only bullet left in the chamber. We can’t excuse their racism this way. But we can start to understand it.
(snip)

"politically weak people"

In effect, having been crushed and broken so many times, Southern white workers chose to internalize their pain and have made their deals with the devil.

I'm afraid it's going to take white folks themselves in the South to finally overthrow the GOP's death grip on their towns and states.

[hfojvt]

48. salon is being silly

"who was it who voted for Nixon?"

In 1972 , it was basically ALL 50 STATES, except Massachusetts and Washington DC. It was 2.8 million people in Illinois, and 4.2 million people in the deep south state of New York. And even further south, it was 61% of the voters in Maine and even 63% of the voters in that hotbed of racist conservatism - Vermont.

The same was true in 1980.

Who voted for Reagan? Not just southern states like Alabama, Louisiana and Georgia (whoops, not Georgia), but also conservative southern states, like, like, Wisconsin, and New York, and Maine, and Vermont and Michigan and Oregon and Washington.

Basically ALL 50 STATES voted for Reagan in both 1980 and 1984, except Minnesota, Hawaii, West Virginia, Washington DC, Georgia, Maryland and Rhode Island. Even Taxachusetts voted for Reagan in 1980 - those racist bastards, fugging southerners ( )

Looking at Nixon in 1968, which was a lot closer than 1972 or 1980 or 1984 (except by the electoral college) Nixon still managed to win such southern states as Oregon, New Jersey, Wisconsin, Vermont, New Hampshire and Delaware. The electoral college was lopsided because Wallace took five southern states. States, which incidentally all voted for Carter in 1976, and three of which were won by Clinton in 1992, and two in 1996.

So Salon is full of crap there, and a special shout out to Dave Leip for having the facts readily available to me http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/index.html

[DinahMoeHum]

52. Nitpicky. And irrelevant.

Salon doesn't write the stories, individual authors do.

And that individual author was talking about why Southerners continue to vote against their best interests and why the pattern there is persistent throughout the decades.

[hfojvt]

62. and Salon decided to publish the hooey

it specifically said

"Who was it that voted for Wallace, then Nixon, then Reagan? The depressing question points to the politically weak people for whom racism was the only bullet left in the chamber."

And the answer to the latter two questions is - a whole bunch of Northerners.

So why single out southerners as the only people who "vote against their best interests"?

Perhaps because it allows northern writers to throw those R-bombs at those backwards-a$$ed hicks in the south?

The voting pattern in the south is certainly no more consistent than that of the west. Since 1952 the states of Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas have voted Republican in every year but 1964 when "in their guts, they knew Goldwater was nuts". That's 14 out of 15 presidential elections. (Whoops, Clinton did win Montana, thanks to Perot, in 1992 with 37.6% of the vote).

Meanwhile parts of the south went for Kennedy, Carter, and Clinton.

So why should the south be singled out more than the plains and rockies? Because it allows us to re-fight the Civil War? Because it is just so fun to throw R-bombs at southerners?

[DinahMoeHum]

64. So take your complaint to Salon and the author, OK?

Don't shoot the messenger here - it's just an opinion, and everybody's got one.

[hfojvt]

100. sorry, did not meant to harsh on you

I am having, it seems an awful week. If nothing else, it seems that allergies are kicking my a$$.

Making me even grumpier than usual, and even my usual is grumpy old man.

I do agree that churches have largely failed working class whites, pretty much abandoned them. At least the churches I associate with seem to be bastions of the upper middle class, rather than of the factory worker or retail worker. For a long time I have marvelled at the nice new - expensive - cars you see parked outside a church on a Sunday. The people who attend church are generally not poor, probably are above the median income.

And that is why (I think) a lot of those people voted for Reagan. Not so much for reasons of race, but because of the $$$$. Reagan promised these giant, across-the-board, tax cuts, and for many above the median income, that looked like easy money.

So, on the one side, you had Reagan promising free money, and on the other side you had Carter promising more sacrifices like a 55 mph speed limit and malaise and giving away the Panama Canal and not going to the Olympics and hostage crises. Reagan promised free money AND an America that would kick a$$ (again).

[bigbrother05]

53. The New Deal didn't fail the Southern Whites

It rescued the country as a whole, then the GOP and their ownership philosophy sold out their livelihoods. The introduction of Right-to-Work laws were sold as a way for the South to compete for Northern/Union jobs, but really intended to break the power of the Unions and maximize profits at the expense of workers.

When you're faced with a loss of your ability to provide for your family, it is much easier to fooled into grasping at the kind of rhetoric that demonizes others as the root of your problems. You need to vote for the GOP or the card carrying Union minorities will steal your job, marry your daughter, and take away your guns.

[NOLALady]

29. The same people had problems

with Rev. Wright's sermons.

Gee, I wonder why.

[hughee99]

61. Exactly! I remember when DUers were this concerned about Rev. Wright's sermons.

Oh wait... I don't recall that at all.

[ileus]

30. Someone's FOS...

I've been in dozens of churches in the south, never heard anything political. Nothing about the devil coming to get you if you vote for democrats. Nothing about ditching public schools....Nothing about hating black people....

I wonder where this info comes from?

The only thing our preacher (13 years now in the same church) has ever said to us was "The church isn't a place for politics." that was during last falls election season.

43 years in one church or another and nada, zip, nothing....someone's making shit up and feeding it to us as the gospel.

[AlbertCat]

33. I've been in dozens of churches in the south,

That's nice.... but your anecdotal evidence is worthless.

[hfojvt]

38. apparently not as worthless as the ONE church

that this woman mentions to Schulz in the OP and the ONE church mentioned by a legislator.

Her anecdote is as right as rain - absolute gospel truth.

Mainly because it tells us things we already believe, or want to believe.

[ileus]

44. One church she's probably never been in.

[catrose]

102. sermon on Easter @ Lutheran Church 2011 in Texas

was on the evils of Obamacare. That is why I found this story easy to believe.

[hfojvt]

105. lots of people hated Hillarycare too

really has very little to do with RACISM, necessarily.

One sermon at one church on one Sunday about a policy does not equate to all Southern white churches preaching racism.

But that sure does seem like an odd topic for Easter.

[HangOnKids]

65. Boom

Thanks for that!

[hfojvt]

43. it comes from a story - one story told by one person

it is pure anecdotal "evidence". One woman tells Schulz that she heard something at a church and she expands that to include all the churches in the south, but only the white churches.

Oh, I know that some churches are playing politics and probably some pastors are preaching racism to some congregations, but I don't believe it is universal or even that widespread.

The politics probably is. Many churches and their members are strongly anti-abortion. My Archbishop in the Catholic church said our Governor could not take communion because of her stance on abortion, and because she vetoed some bill. I notice the defeaning silence now about our Republican Governor's tax plan that screws the poor, but come on, since when does the Catholic church care about the poor?

So I am kinda surprised when you say you have never heard anything political.

I consider that a failure of the church. The church can be, and should be, very political - on the side of the poor and the working people. One thing that is mentioned about the early church, in Acts 2: 43 and also Acts 4: 32, is that "there were no poor or needy persons among them" and the very communistic statement "neither did anyone say that the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common." I do not believe the Gospel, at least the way that Jesus taught it, is politically neutral. I am guessing the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King might agree too.

[Blue_Tires]

50. Need me to point you in the direction of some of Falwell/Robertson's affiliated churches?

And that's just my state...

[AlbertCat]

32. Ed Schultz EXPOSES Cause Of Racism In The South

That's nice.

Now how about the racism of the rest of the country... 'cause it's everywhere.

[Blue_Tires]

47. +1

[cordelia]

54. + 2

[meow2u3]

76. Openly racist Northern politicians typically lose elections

...if they try the racist dog whistle politics that work with white Southern conservatives (or, should I say, pseudo-conservative fascist pigs).

There is racism in the North, but it's typically kept under wraps. It seems as if the North treates overt racism as socially unacceptable and ostracizes openly racist individuals. Not even racist dog whistles that work in the South can work well up North; those who tried it have been called out for race baiting.

Ever notice how openly racist teabaggers in Northern states cannot win statewide elections if they run on their prejudices? They have to pull a bait-and-switch scam on the electorate to win statewide office. In other words, Kasich, Walker, Corbett, and LePage, for instance, would never have won their races if they came out as the racist they are. They had to run on a false platform of jobs and the economy to trick voters into voting for them.

[AlbertCat]

145. Openly racist Northern politicians typically lose elections

That's interesting... but y'know the country doesn't stop at the Mississippi. And blacks aren't the only people prejudice goes after. What's the "Heartland's" excuse? The West's?

BTW.... the most openly prejudice state I've been in (haven't been in all 50 tho') was PA! It's like Southern prejudice, only without the veneer of Southern gentility or manners. Just dreadful!

[Coyote_Bandit]

35. Meanwhile

I took some elderly white folks who have lived their entire lives in the south to see The Butler yesterday. These are people in their 80'and 90's who raised families and lived ordinary lives as farmers, truck drivers, housewives, and nurses. Many tears were shed - and the film tiggered traumatic memories for the nurses.

Following the movie the group discussed their recollection and memories of that time period. Without exception, they expressed both their horror that such violence and hatred were inflicted upon a people seeking nothing more than equal treatment and their recollection of feeling largely helpless in their ordinary lives of the time to intervene in any way that they considerd meaningful.

[Brainstormy]

36. I left my church

in suburbs of Atlanta, in 1995, in the run-up to the Olympics when the pulpit was devoted to anti-gay sermonizing. There were to be gays on the volleyball team and the minister didn't want the venue in our county. I decided that his family values weren't my family values and never looked back. But Ed is right. There's lots of political "persuasion" coming out of southern churches. Always has been.

[Lex]

37. I'm guessing racism in other places in the U.S. has much the same reason too.

[LuvNewcastle]

45. There's a lot of hate in certain churches in the South, particularly

the Baptists. I was raised Baptist, so I know the kind of shit they say. I remember back in the 1970's, preachers were standing in the pulpit and talking about the story of Noah and the Great Flood. They used to say that black people were descended from Noah's son Ham, who was cursed by God for seeing his father's nakedness. They said that the curse was also upon all of Ham's descendants, that they were relegated to being the servants of the other races. That's one of many racist sermons I've heard in Baptist churches.

I've been to services in several Protestant denominations, as well as some Catholic masses and liturgies at a Russian Orthodox church, and I've never seen the prejudice and RW propaganda that I've seen in Baptist churches. I'm sure it happens in some of the other churches, but the Baptists are, by far, the biggest offenders.

My dad keeps up with religious news and he says that the Southern Baptists, who are most Baptists, are losing members and the mainline Protestant churches are gaining members. If that trend continues, I think we'll see some moderation of southerners' views on a lot of issues.

[Dreamer Tatum]

49. Funny...I can find hundreds of videos on YouTube of "kittehs" but not one exposing this alleged

behavior.

Which means it's a big pile of bullshit.

[polynomial]

55. Its not all Hate; many are tired

The other day getting gas at the local station where the area is split some white some black. Two young men coming and going from the gas station illustrates what many can call “bias fatigue”. So this is pitched out with intentions for debate honest and open pretty or ugly depends on you.

From my view it is tiring, very tiring to watch young black men parade around very openly with their pants way down below sometime beneath their genitals clearly exposing the underwear as it looks with intention to be seen. Tell me if it is wrong, because I think it is, it exposes the irrational mind the volatile uncertainty that we all grow up with living and talking about black white bias.

Walking down the street or in public parking lots it does not matter. This seems to be a way to express a personal opinion or identify something more critical in human nature cultural positioning way. To wear the common clothes such as pants half down the anus has to be sending a message that is not totally clear. Or worse never such an illustration had a message it is to be developed as a culture or trend.

Yet in other parts of the world, women are required to have a head covered with a burka, but also appears here in America. A strict definition from my view it is medieval as knights that are covered in armor a time when religion is tied to government too much.

So now the type of culture shouting out to all is the freedom to have pants half hanging off the ass? Seemingly inventing something new, or creatures of chaos, or the mark of tyranny. The closet one percent adding to the black man’s options.

[M0rpheus]

77. Can you clarify these thoughts a bit?

Last edited Wed Aug 28, 2013, 03:44 PM - Edit history (2)

because, I'm not really sure where you're going with this.

I'll just comment on what I took from it.

As a black man with my pants wrapped firmly (not too firmly, mind you) around my butt, I often shake my head at what some people consider fashion.
However, I don't consider it an indictment of black men who "parade around" wearing clothes in a manner that shows their undergarments. I consider it a stupid fashion choice, just as I considered visible bras, made popular by Madonna a stupid fashion choice. That said, this whole pants phenomenon wasn't much of an issue when Mark Walberg ( when he was Marky Mark) was in music videos doing the same thing waaaaaay back in the day. Or if it was, it wasn't an indictment on white urban youth.

I'd ask why it's so tiring, for you to see? How does that affect you, past a shake of the head at their fashion choices? Do you have a dog in this fight?
I ask because you indicated your personal fatigue. I can understand that fatigue, if this fashion statement is taken as an indictment on you and people like you (you haven't indicated such). If you aren't affected by this other than having to see it, what's the problem?

Bigots don't really need a reason to feel that way, any given explanation (i.e. pants or whatever) is just used as a confirmation of what they already thought. Along that same train of thought, those of us who don't fit the stereotype are considered out of the ordinary, and signify nothing of the people we (supposedly) represent.

I'd suggest your "bias fatigue" may be more confirmation bias than anything else...

After all that, you lost me with burqas and armor... So, clarify your post and we can have that honest discussion?

[heaven05]

93. it's a prison thing

Identifying with the majority prison population, a lot there for inconsequential non-violent crimes. Less than an ounce of maryj. You don't want to have me say why prisoners wear their clothes like that. I probably get alerted on. It's easy to find out.

[M0rpheus]

96. The reason doesn't even matter any more.

Last edited Wed Aug 28, 2013, 05:59 PM - Edit history (1)

Prison or otherwise. while it may have started that way, I'd say most who choose to dress this way, don't care where it came from. As a message, it's been diluted to basic "black" style. My nephews had no clue of the history...

I always ask what's so scary about a black man with his pants hanging off his ass? It's not like they can chase you very far without their pants falling off.

[heaven05]

97. LOL

last line is funny and true. FYI I do tell the young ones that will listen what that 'fashion' is all about. They still wear them mid thigh. You're right, reason does not matter. It is silly to me though, but I'm 65, what do I know?

[M0rpheus]

98. And right on cue... Sadly...

Cellphone Robber Caught After Tripping Over Own Sagging Pants
http://gawker.com/cellphone-robber-caught-after-tripping-over-own-sagging-1214658563

[nolabear]

56. Well, one of the causes, and some of the churches.

It doesn't make it any less odious, but you can't pin it to one overwhelming cause. Churches in the South are places where people organize. And that makes them useful for those who want to lift people up, those who want to put others down, those who want to take peoples; money, and a holy host of other things.

And it's not confined to the South. But admittedly it is a real, real, real problem.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

80. this bears repeating- right here

" ... AND IT'S NOT CONFINED TO THE SOUTH !!! "

[Snake Plissken]

59. The KKK never went away, they just weren't organized until the like of Karl Rove came around

and gave them a party which celebrates racism and equates it to Christian morality.

If you support anything other than obscenely rich angry old White men you will burn in Hell.

[madokie]

60. Happy to say

I quit believing a long time ago. 51 years to be exact was when I realized that church was for control of the masses, not saving a soul. I don't even like going to a church for paying my last respects. To be honest with you

[jwirr]

63. Not only racism comes from the southern religions - they have been anti union for as long as

I can remember in my 70 years. The churches are mostly Calvinist and do not believe in being our brothers keepers unless it is a fellow church member. Self idolatry is what I have come to call it. Me-Me-Me.

Forgot to say that I am extremely happy to have Ed back five days a week. I have no idea what MSNBC were thinking taking him off in the first place.

[DeSwiss]

69. On the contrary, Americans don't spend enough time on race issues.

America is all about race/class. It's at the very core of our nation's being. That's one of the primary thing that drove white people here -- class issues. And that's also what gave them (in their minds) the justification to steal land from the Indians and Mexicans here (Manifest Destiny) and to steal Africans from their land there (the Mark of Cain).

- No, Americans doesn't spend nearly enough time discussing race. And that's why.

K&R

[KamaAina]

70. "Martin Luther King said the most segregated hour in America is at 11:00 on Sunday mornings"

I always thought the second most segregated hour was 11:00 on Saturday night. We tend to play separately, too.

[usaf-vet]

71. "Martin Luther King said........

........ "the most segregated hour in America is at 11:00 on Sunday mornings, during church services. It allows those of ill will to use that homogeneity to indoctrinate and to foment a false reality to be feared, a fear of the ‘the other’."

Take away their tax exempt status. Let them say whatever they want then but on their nickel not on yours and mine.

Let's see how important free speech is to them then.

[noiretextatique]

72. those churches should lose their tax-exempt status

actually, all of them should.

[Vashta Nerada]

75. every church needs to lose its tax exempt status.

[Mosby]

79. Related: The rise of the nons: Why nondenominational churches are winning over mainline churches

When people leave mainline churches they go somewhere else. As Rodney Stark, a sociologist at Baylor University in Waco, Texas describes it, they are not leaving religion so much as they are looking for religion. About 44 percent of Americans say they have a religious affiliation that is different from the religion in which they were raised, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life's "U.S. Religious Landscape Survey."

"Everybody knows that the so-called 'mainline' is now the sideline. The United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Methodists and the Episcopalians have been shrinking at a rather prodigious rate. But that isn't because people left church, it is because people left THOSE churches," says Stark. "Groups like the Assemblies of God have doubled and redoubled in size in the same period of time."

The flight from mainline churches, Stark says, has been going on since the 1800s. It wasn't really noticed until the 1960s because overall population growth made it look like mainline churches were growing, while all along their percentage of the population was dropping.

-snip-

As denominations are less linked to identity, it opens churches up to greater competition. Timothy Dalrymple, associate director of content at Patheos.com and an evangelical columnist, says "American Christianity is a vital open marketplace of religious ideas in churches. These non-denominational churches can try 100 things and find a model that works."

Often that model includes a well-defined conservative expression of Christianity that contrasts with mainline churches' more moderate theology. Dalrymple thinks this "dissipation" of mainline churches' theology is part of the reason why people are leaving. "They became less committed to traditional Christian teaching regarding the authority of scripture, regarding salvation in Christ alone, and so forth."

Cannon Nestler doesn't think this conservative trend is a good thing — particularly the danger of defining things in inflexible ways, regardless of how appealing they might be. "The developments of theologies that say 'we are the only right way' have had a profoundly detrimental effect on our culture," she says. "We are called to live here in toleration of each other. The scariest part of the religious right is the voicing of the idea that 'It's not part of the American culture that we are called to live with other religious expressions.' That scares the heck out of me."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700113490/The-rise-of-the-nons-Why-nondenominational-churches-are-winning-over-mainline-churches.html?pg=all

[WestSeattle2]

85. This is not limited to the South - not by a long shot.

[Rebellious Republican]

91. Its easier for some to bash the south instead of looking at what is happening in their own

backyards. Ed is no better than Hannity, they both want to sell commercials by any means necessary.

Here is an eye opener......

http://users.humboldt.edu/mstephens/hate/hate_map.html#

[gopiscrap]

88. IMHO Racism is caused by 3 things:

Ignorance
Greed
Hatred

[underpants]

89. God guns and gays-Lee Atwater

They sold many that if you go to (white) church you are supposed to vote Republican. Identity marketing it is called now.

[ashling]

99. I always liked JK Galbraith's assertion that the modern

conservative is seeking a moral justification for greed. That is an economists analysis - and sums it up pretty well from that perspective.

As someone born and raised in the south (my mother is from Philadelphia, MS) I see another motivation.

They go into their right wing "Christian" churches looking for a moral justification for hate. They go in teir and they get what they are looking for. A "moral" justification for HATE.

[felix_numinous]

103. Religious fanatacism is used worldwide

to CREATE war, along with dumbing down and making education unaffordable, as THE most effective way to divide and conquer a people. It has been going on here folks, and we are in SORE need of a strategy to counter this before it develops further. I do believe that this is what we thought we were getting when we voted President Obama into office, whether we were 'illusionary' or not--a strategy to fight racism, war and to unite the country.

This is why Martin Luther King, JFK, RFK and I believe Lennon were assassinated--because they were powerful enough to influence the country to resist going down the path of war, racism and violence.

So one has to wonder IF President Obama were to hire peace advocates, environmentalists or to attempt turning the energy department green, what would happen to him?

The 1% want the rest of us to fight over the crumbs they leave us--and by using religion to foment infighting keeps the guns selling, the military ranks and jails filled and the war machine primed and oiled. Make no mistake. $$$ is being POURED into these racist churches and hate radio.

[Shankapotomus]

104. Love Ed

He is the Limbaugh antidote.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

109. Hatred for long haired hippies condemning the rich:

[Blue Idaho]

111. They want to preach the politics of racial hatred, segregation, and voter supression?

Tax the shit out of them.

[polichick]

116. Amazing what followers will do. Apparently they have no inner voice...

that's saying WTF?!

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

117. It is the.....

.....American Taliban, fascists. etc. There's no difference.

[Initech]

122. You preach politics and hate, you lose tax exempt status. End of debate.

I believe Jesus himself warned us about this sort of thing in the Bible.

[Generic Brad]

123. This is not exclusive to the South

I have seen my own relatives up in Yankee country turn to the dark side as they practiced and echoed what was preached to them from the pulpit. I do not buy that this has only happening in the South.

[certainot]

127. it's not the church, it's the radio. those dumbass preachers listen to team limbaugh

28%+ of limbaugh stations piggyback 76+ of our major universities, while their mission statements would prohibit it on principle. one of limbaugh's functions and one that he excels at, is rationalizing racism- he has made it acceptable again because no one gets in his face in real time. there are many other unis and colleges that endorse non-limbaugh stations- our state funded universities make it possible by taking a little licensing money to allow the racists and pub education privateers and war mongers and voter suppressors to put their sports team logos on their racist megaphones.

https://sites.google.com/site/universitiesforrushlimbaugh/

[blkmusclmachine]

131. Pen!s envy.

[LaPera]

136. Ed Schultz is always worth watching -Just watch.....

[Scurrilous]

143. K & R