General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI bleed red. I support intervention in Syria.
Honestly, I have supported it for a while now.
I want the US military to go in, remove that murdering asshole from power, escort his generals to the Hague, and then offer support to the people of Syria while they put the pieces back together.
The people of Syria are victims of murder by an oppressive government. They have done everything they can do, and at this point, somebody with a bigger stick needs to come in and save them from their oppressors.
Yes, I realize this is making the United States a "police force" against tyranny, oppression and murder. I am good with it. I don't want us to be there to "prop up" anyone.
I just want us to go in, take the bad guy out, and help out just like we would if a natural disaster took over - you know, let them tell us what they need, and then make sure supplies get where they need to be while the shock wears off.
Get in, take them out, offer the support decent human beings offer when a neighbor has gone through a tragedy, and then get out.
I have children. I am a human being. The families in Syria who are burying their dead are my brothers and sisters, and their children were supposed to be part of my future.
The world is both a small and a big place. State sanctioned murder of civilians - have you seen the photos of the dead? - is an abomination.
The number of dead should not be this high.
I support intervention in Syria.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Cyber-recruiters are standing by.
http://www.goarmy.com/talk-with-us/phone.html
markiv
(1,489 posts)that's the one thing they all have in common
they never put on the uniform, when it's offered to them
they're all for war, just having others fight it for them
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)priorities."
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)she must already be in the army and serving abroad.
right?
or were those empty, total BS words?
brb, let me check who wrote it...
er, um, that's affirmative.
AsahinaKimi
(20,776 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)If the OP bleeds red, they sound like they are offering up their own blood to back up their stance on this. What better way to do it than to enlist?
Great post.
1awake
(1,494 posts)if they deemed it necessary? Would that mean war? Or is it a question of Syria being to small for us to need to worry about any measurable retaliation? Is the UN only good if it serves our needs?
Not you, but there seems to be a huge double standard for many who are for military action. A country isn't sovereign unless it can fight back regardless if they are wrong or right.
otohara
(24,135 posts)You'd think saving American's from the nuts with guns would be first on their agenda.
Those who try get recalled.
America is fucked up!
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)There is zero proof so if you are for "taking out bad guys"you are talking out your ass.
I hope you are for marching bush, cheney, obama, biden and all their generals to the hague for killing civilians.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)So I am confident I know what is going on at a level I really would prefer not to know.
Yes, I marched against the war in Iraq; I am also friends with a family of Iraqi refugees. (The husband is/was a civil engineer who worked with the US Army; when we pulled out, they received a few hours of warning he was going to be killed, and they fled. He can't get a job in his field here because the only jobs are with the Army, and since he can't become a citizen for seven years - sigh. Good people; his wife is an amazing cook.)
No, I will not sign up; I support the military with my tax dollars, and taking out evil tyrants is one of the things I am good with them doing.
Please note that I do not support us staying in the region. I support the perpetrators being dragged to the Hague.
leftstreet
(36,111 posts)There is no plan by the WH to remove Assad
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I am stating what *I* want.
I want Assad removed, along with his generals, preferably to the Hague.
Reading comprehension can be a problem when you are reading what you want to see, instead of what I write.
leftstreet
(36,111 posts)You have definitive proof Assad is a 'murdering asshole'
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)leftstreet
(36,111 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,355 posts)http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/middle-east/130807-amnesty-satellite-images-prove-assad-violates-human-rights
Executive Summary
I. Repression of Political and Human Rights Activism
II. Restrictions on Freedom of Expression
III. Torture, Ill-Treatment, and Enforced Disappearances
IV. Repression of Kurds
V. Legacy of Enforced Disappearances
VI. Annex: List of Political and Human Rights Activists Detained during Bashar al-Asads First Decade in Power
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2010/07/16/wasted-decade
leftstreet
(36,111 posts)interesting
muriel_volestrangler
(101,355 posts)President Obama, speaking at a joint press conference with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, says that Turkey and the U.S. agree that Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad must give up power to a transitional government.
http://live.wsj.com/video/obama-and-erdogan-syria-assad-must-go/A714C6EE-C4BA-4FCF-B9BF-57567F1026B6.html#!A714C6EE-C4BA-4FCF-B9BF-57567F1026B6
If you're referring to today's "the options that we are considering are not about regime change", that's saying they are not going to attack to force him out. They want him to leave power voluntarily.
leftstreet
(36,111 posts)I mean, I don't know
These official WH statements are probably meant for people other than us
muriel_volestrangler
(101,355 posts)They think he should go.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Not sure what the rest of your post has to do with anything. Great, you know a guy. And if you asked a thousand other guys they would tell you a different story.
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)What about your children? How about sending them to fight?
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)So I think we will leave the "taking out of tyrants" to those who do it for a living, while I am blessed to have mine start elementary school next week.
And yes, I think the people of Syria should be worrying about school supplies instead of burial shrouds for their children, too.
It may be a tough concept, but instead of "conquering places for rich people" I like the idea of "keeping people safe from murdering tyrants" as a reasonable use of military force.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)"No, I will not sign up; I support the military with my tax dollars" You can pay other people to do your dirty work for you, and if they happen to end up trapped and enslaved in the "back door draft" like happened with Iraq, well isn't that too bad for them.
The US took out the "evil tyrant" Saddam Hussein. How many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died, and continue to die, as a result.
Not to mention how many are now being born with birth defects due to our (apparently not obscene) use of depleted uranium?
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Also, I am not advocating us staying there and robbing the place.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)you advocate going in, taking out the government, leaveing behind the various rebel factions, both Syrian and from interested countries, plus al Qaeda to continue fighting each other and killing hundreds of thousands more civilians until somebody is left standing?
Really, you have absolutely no clue what you are wishing for.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Your post suggests that. Take your time Ida.
markiv
(1,489 posts)which i'm sure the OP's family is not subject to
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)for her friends.
She can pay for others to do the bleeding. How very nice for her to have the power to wish *others* be forced into kill or be killed situations, while sitting safely at home, with no fear of retaliation from Syria after we invade their soveveign nation.
markiv
(1,489 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)why would you say you "bleed red" if you actually would not sacrifice a drop of your own blood for the cause?
i could understand supporting it, but why would you claim to "bleed red" for it?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Just what the right wingers did when they said if you were against Iraq, you were against the military and should shut up.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Sitting on one's ass, in the comfort of one's home and espousing killing other people to "send messages" or to "take out bad guys" makes you a repuke chickenhawk or a cruise missile liberal. Both are in the severe douchebag category.
Kill away, but heaven forbid, just don't interrupt their life.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Or whatever is the maximum age for the military? Women should not have a say?
Maybe the Constitution should be amended to say that only those in the military now can vote whether to be involved. That would sit all right with me.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,335 posts)Nobody said you couldn't have an opinion. You are arguing against a position not proposed.
Sure, you can have an opinion. Have at it.
Just be prepared to be called a chickenhawk. And if that truth hurts, too fucking bad.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Too old to go into the military?
Hardly seems fair.
mythology
(9,527 posts)There was a time in which it was considered uncivil to have to resort to name calling.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Odd how it's the same people who instinctively line up on the authority side of every other argument, isn't it?
markiv
(1,489 posts)an opinion
because so many the are acceptable, and spout off, dont sign up
they want OTHERS to 'bleed red'
cali
(114,904 posts)the rebel opposition consists of different factions- they're already at odds and killing each other as well as killing Christians.
What the fuck do you think will happen if we remove Assad from power?
Try an even worse civil war, genocide of Alawites and ethnic cleansing of Christians and other Shia.
Read this. Read the links. Learn about the situation.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/before-you-conclude-that-precision-bombing-makes-sense-with-syria/279086/
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I am as informed as I feel I need to be. I am friends with people who are from Syria, who still have family there. This situation has been going on for several years, and it is getting worse.
Please note that I am not supporting any specific "rebel faction" - I am supporting the removal of Assad and his murdering generals.
cali
(114,904 posts)the removal of Assad will lead to far worse genocide.
As Douglas Carpenter keeps reminding people:
"Christians to Beirut, Alawites to the grave"
Not a single expert thinks removing Assad will do anything but make things worse.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Mine is strongly influenced by my social network.
Do you have any idea how many Syrians have died since that asshole came to power?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashar_al-Assad
By the end of January 2012, it was reported that over 5,000 civilians and protesters (including armed militants) had been killed by the Syrian army, militia (Shabeeha) and security agents, while 1,100 people had been killed by the anti-government forces.[79]
On 10 January 2012, Assad gave a speech in which he accused the uprising of being plotted by foreign countries and claimed that "victory [was] near". He also said that the Arab League, by suspending Syria, revealed that it was no longer Arab. However, al-Assad also said the country would not "close doors" to an Arab-brokered solution if "national sovereignty" was respected. He also said a referendum on a new constitution could be held in March.[80]
On 27 February, Syria claimed that a referendum on an update to the nation's constitution, hailed as 'a showpiece of reform' received 90% support. The referendum imposes a fourteen-year cumulative term limit for the president of Syria. The referendum has been claimed as meaningless by foreign nations including the US and Turkey, and the European Union announced fresh sanctions against key government figures.[81] On 16 July 2012, Russia voicing concern at the blackmail on Syria by the western nations, laid to rest any speculations that it was distancing itself from Bashir Al-Assad. Moscow also vowed not to allow a UN resolution pass that aims at sanctions against Syria.[82]
On 15 July, the International Committee of the Red Cross had officially declared Syria to be in a state of civil war,[83] as the nationwide death toll for all sides was reported to have neared 20,000.[84]
Per my friends, the number is higher.
cali
(114,904 posts)Yes, damned straight I know. I know that 100,000 Syrians have died in this war.
And YOU are wrong about everything. The missile attacks that the U.S. plans to launch have zip to do with taking out Assad. The administration does not want that outcome, for reasons which you are ignorant of.
You are totally talking out of your hat in every frickin' post in your thread. It's appalling.
frylock
(34,825 posts)exactly like them.
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)You do know that Al Qeada makes up part of the rebel force and is trying to help install the Caliphate and a Theocracy. Things most certanly will get worse with Assad gone.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/356920/kucinich-striking-syria-will-make-us-military-al-qaedas-air-force-sterling-beard
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/28/how-u-s-strikes-on-syria-help-al-qaeda.html
http://abcnews.go.com/International/hezbollah-al-qaeda-fighters-edging-closer-confrontation/story?id=19144119
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)NOTE: Not in the Project, but followed the protocol. Video shared with permission.
You should see what is going on with the 9-year old from last year, or the other 120 children seeing benefit. Unfortunately, we only have an 83% success rate, which means I have 40 other children who have seen no benefit.
I know you think you were just being sarcastic, but yeah!
NealK
(1,874 posts)you're also scamming desperate people.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)"Scamming!"
We can fix a lot of things; I recommend you click on the link in my sig line.
Seriously, with that level of "investigative journalism" you should get a job on Fox!
NealK
(1,874 posts)Ida Briggs, Executive Director at Preemie Growth Project, Inc.
The "donations" are not tax deductible, no independent scientific review of your "cure".
You're promoting and selling a bogus miracle cure to people who are very vulnerable. I find that despicable.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)a) Never sold a dratted thing. We are a non-profit, and have zero financial interests in any of the products.
b) NO ONE at Preemie Growth Project receives *any* compensation of any kind what-so-ever. Period. The people involved (including myself) are strictly volunteers. You can discuss your contempt for them on Facebook at the "Preemie Growth Project Parent Group" where they will share their opinions on the Project with you. (Please come - it should be fun to watch!)
c) "Cure" is a strong word, and my early ignorance of its appropriate use was and has been corrected. We are politely using "cause, prevention, and treatment" to describe the effects on *some* forms of cerebral palsy. We are also extremely clear that is is "early stages" of investigation, and we are still figuring a lot of this stuff out. (The effects on sensory processing, for example, were completely unexpected.)
The information we have is actually based on extremely well documented medical textbooks/papers, and appears to be a major breakthrough in the understanding of neuromuscular issues. We can turn sensory issues on-and-off like a water faucet, have good statistical data on the types of issues that are seeing benefit (and those that aren't), a regular pattern of identifiable improvement, and are working with medical professionals all over the world (literally - 38 states, 6 countries, and folks everywhere from the NIH to World Health paying attention). They will investigate, and write the papers. We will support their research and investigation.
In the meantime, I've got 121 children seeing "dramatic improvement" and another 40 who saw no improvement. 74% of my "failure to thrive" children are no longer in that category within 90 days. Children who were confined to wheelchairs are walking. (My favorite story in this vein is of a child who was using a walker, got frustrated because of a snowfall situation, and just picked it up and started carrying it - woo hoo! Mom about fell over.)
So, while I appreciate your passion for defending vulnerable populations from attempted fraud, I can politely assure you that there is nothing to worry about here. I would also advise you to "self-delete" the comment because as this gets more wide-spread attention (the compounds are available over-the-counter under many different labels, and we have good reports on almost all of them), you *will* end up looking ... foolish.
But I am good either way, because one of the mom's in our parent group posted this:
"We have just started the minerals 5 days ago and I was wondering if anyone has seen a reduction in tone? We have been going to myofascial release twice a week for more than 3 years and today his therapist commented that his hamstrings weren't too bad. Normally she has to give him a good stretching all over. I just thought the comment was worth noting."
Nope, she wasn't the first, and the other moms have been chiming in - tee hee! (The breakdown for speed of response is 1/5 sees *very fast* response, 2/5 see "good" within 8 weeks, 1/5 see "slow" within 16 weeks, and 1/5 see nothing. )
Life is good.
NealK
(1,874 posts)You support the bombing of nerve agent plants that will results in countless numbers of people dying or ending up with severe disabilities. You're a real saint and the epitome of rationality. And please stop sending me creepy PMs.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Whatever.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Way to stick your fingers in your ears and la-la-la.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)an already bad situation.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)those murdering bastards off to the Hague because they have contributed to just as many deaths in Syria as has the regime in Damascus. Come to think of it, there's the enablers behind this civil war in Paris, London, Washington, Moscow, Beijing, and Tehran.
Really, once we start, where do we stop?
The Magistrate
(95,252 posts)But it seldom works out that cleanly in practice, and in this particular case, almost certainly would not.
bobGandolf
(871 posts)Amonester
(11,541 posts)The oppression against the sick, the old, the poor, the homeless, the hungry, the schoolchildren, the voiceless, the victims of criminal acts et al bothers me to the nth degree. I just want us to get in, take the bad 1% guys out, and help out just like we would if a natural disaster took over - you know, let them tell us what they need, and then make sure supplies get where they need to be while the shock wears off.
Get in, take them out, offer the support decent human beings offer when a neighbor has gone through a tragedy, and then get out.
I have children. I am a human being. The families in Syria who are burying their dead are my brothers and sisters, and their children were supposed to be part of my future.
(Also.)
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Great post BTW.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Many of the people who advocate for war are the same ones who say we don't have enough money to look after own people and rebuild our own infrastructure.
StopTheNeoCons
(893 posts)I have to agree with most of the posters here, after our reckless and stupid history in that region, we are not qualified to help the Syrian people, the UN needs to do it.
sinkingfeeling
(51,470 posts)Russia? What if Israel or Saudi Arabia is struck in retaliation? Shall we be responsible for WWIII?
rdharma
(6,057 posts)Be honest.
And do you want to bomb Syria because Syria bombed Syria?
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Also, I do not want to "bomb them" - I want Assad and his generals taken alive to the Hague.
I want "accountability" when it comes to killing your own civilians.
rdharma
(6,057 posts)I know many folks who were for the invasion of Iraq and now claim they were against it from the "git go".
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Afterward I felt the march was a complete waste of time because it was OBVIOUS that SOB and his war criminals were going to do it regardless. (Don't get me started!)
You can find many of my posts over the years where I bemoan the fact they *aren't* being prosecuted.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Give us a fucking break. We have seen this obscene manipulation by the MIC over and over and over and over and over again.
The bloodshed and misery this will become will vastly exceed the transparent excuse for going in. Going into Syria was planned a long time ago.
What a scam. What a fucking scam.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)and the Administration is aware of the huge dangers that would pose for Syria and the region. Even a limited strike poses the dangers of worsening the civil war in Syria, setting off a wider regional conflagration that would draw in Iran, Israel, Turkey and Lebanon and so much more.
It's not a nail. The U.S. needs to put down the hammer.
atreides1
(16,091 posts)former9thward
(32,068 posts)Then you can take them out.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)Ecstasy ? Bubble wrap ?
Is Iraq today a paradise of freedom and democracy?
Some seem to be suffering from Am-new-sia on this. Amnewsia -- (noun), the state of not remembering how this shit turned out last time because one watches the MSM news and they never mention it.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I would prefer some of my very expensive "crack troops" went in and took out the leadership/removed them to the Hague.
The options aren't just "ignore them or bomb them."
cali
(114,904 posts)Assad. Period. Full Stop.
That is unless you want a wider conflagration and much, much fucking worse genocide. I know that you don't want that.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)who is SLAUGHTERING his people from power --
What am I thinking?
Why, look what happened to all those silly slaves after the civil war! Best, indeed, if they had been left in shackles!
cali
(114,904 posts)the comparison to the civil war is patently ridiculous and again a manifestation of ignorance.
What part of this don't you understand:
Removing Assad would lead to more death and destruction for more Syrians. There isn't a whole helluva lot of debate about that, dear.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Realistically, neither of our opinions is going to matter to the people who make the decisions.
I support taking Assad out. Yes, I expect some of the other (hereditary) rulers in the area will have a problem with it.
Don't care. I am clear on what I want. We will see if I get it.
I also trust Obama with this type of decision much more than I trust the last regime.
We will see what happens.
You may want to join an internet chat group that features the opinions of "actual Syrians" to see what their opinion is; "make them stop killing us!" seems to be the overwhelming opinion I get from my social network.
I think it is a reasonable stance to have.
Response to IdaBriggs (Reply #51)
Post removed
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Yes, there are a bunch of idiots who just like to jump all over people - the "go join the military" morons (apparently even Obama can't have an opinion on military use unless he joins, per these nitwits, who seem to forget that the military is under the control of the civilians, but whatever) and the "you must love Bush" (wtf?) and the "how dare you support murder" (seriously?) but honest to pete -
ENOUGH WITH THE PERSONAL INSULTS, CALI.
"I'm actually not surprised to see this level of ignorance from you." <== Yeah, that is a personal insult.
I'm not going to alert on it. We've known each other for YEARS. We've disagreed sometimes, agreed sometimes, and I really don't care if you don't like my opinion, because It. Is. My. Opinion.
I've known about the shit in Syria for YEARS; my kids went to school with other kids who have relatives there, the last school my kids were at had systems in place for dealing with the kids who had personally witnessed the violence because THEY LIVED THROUGH IT, and my current daycare provider immigrated from Syria, and I trust his analysis of the situation a lot more than I trust yours.
Yes, maybe if someone took Hitler out, we would have ended up with a worse dictator. I don't know that. I know that Assad has been killing people in the THOUSANDS for several years now. I don't like it, and I want it to stop.
That doesn't mean I want a caliphate, and it doesn't mean I support "moral" law (aka Sharia). It means I want people to quit dying - especially CHILDREN - and since the victims actually need someone to save them, I support using my military forces to do it. I don't want to prop up a bad regime afterward; I want to go in, help out, and get out.
Have a different opinion? Think their lives aren't as valuable as yours, or that the situation in the Middle East will simply destabilize, or that the next bad guy there is going to be worse?
You have a right to that opinion. I HAVE A RIGHT TO MINE.
And you personally insulting me - well, that isn't changing it. It is making me think you are a rude, obnoxious insulting person who I shouldn't trust.
Telling me I was wrong about this - that was okay. "I'm actually not surprised to see this level of ignorance from you" -- well, kindly escort yourself to the near mirror, and take a good, hard look.
It isn't "pride" that makes me hold this opinion. It is freaking HORROR. And if you can't tell the difference, well, your judgment is beyond suspect, because you have the ability to take an old friend who you could discuss twenty billion things with, disagree about a lot of them, and still talk, into someone who is about ready to make you the second person on her ignore list because *passion* is one thing, but personal insults ---
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)pretty brave of you to be willing to "bleed" for Syria.
jessie04
(1,528 posts)Those insults against you were beyond disgusting.
cali
(114,904 posts)though that would be a ghastly idea and again showcases your ignorance of the situation. A few crack troops would be slaughtered.
Fuck.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)oldhippie
(3,249 posts)..... walk into the palace and say, "Book'em, Dano!"
deutsey
(20,166 posts)This might have been a blockbuster movie in the '80s starring Sylvester Stallone or Arnold Schwarzeneger, but as for being a viable plan of action...
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)Do you honestly think that our special forces can get in there and remove Assad and his leadership? That's Hollywood, not reality.
Name a recent event when our "crack troops" have successfully completed a "hostile extraction" (i.e., kidnapping) of a foreign leader, much less a foreign leadership.
Seriously, Ida - a lot of people are equally horrified by what Assad and his leadership are doing in Syria, but you're not suggesting anything realistic.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)At least Assad doesn't want to impose Sharia Law on the entire world.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)For that matter, which murdering asshole are we removing? Syria's kind of a gif place, and apparently a lot of murdering assholes handed in their resume. Going to have to narrow it down.
Iggo
(47,564 posts)No aftermath allowed!
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Anybody promoting acts of war should be putting their bodies where their mouths (and fingers) are.
After the clusterfucks that are Afghanistan and Iraq, you honestly think we can go in there and fix things?
You do realize if we take out Assad, the country continue to be a war zone while rival factions fight for control.
We don't even know that Assad used chemical weapons. Prove it. Prove it wasn't one of the many, many rebel groups, including al Qaeda, fighting in that region. Prove it wasn't a PNAC/MIC/CIA action intended to pull us into another war in a country that happens to be next on PNAC's list.
Demonstrate exactly how taking out the Syrian government will end better than taking out Iraq's government.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)I didn't like it the first time and I don't want to see it again.
cali
(114,904 posts)about this.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)- Our troops bleed red too, and bullets and bombs make that happen.
- Our "allies" in this war include Al Qaeda, an army that condones ripping someone's heart out and eating it, and psychopaths that hate us and will use our own weapons to kill us after Assad falls.
- Syria would just be another endless war with insurgents.
- Al Qaeda will get their hands on nerve gas and kill civilians with it, possibly even in US cities
- The rebels are murdering as many civilians as Assad is, and they're just as bad (but more irrational and unpredictable).
- This is another war cheered on by the defense industry with natural resource hoarding in mind.
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)Your wants and desires would be paid for with the lives of others sons and daughters. In short, this is one of the most evil, immature, uninformed and bloodthirsty posts I have ever read here on DU.
Cheers!
AsahinaKimi
(20,776 posts)spot on Vinnie!
markiv
(1,489 posts)if you're not going over there in uniform, you support OTHERS bleeding red
n2doc
(47,953 posts)Because they would be the greatest beneficiaries of our actions there. They already control several cities. They have already imposed harsh Sharia laws on the women and children in the areas they control. They are the strongest groups in the opposition.
Ask yourself- how long did it take us, in complete control of Iraq, to finally capture/kill Saddam and his sons? How much harder would that be in a country with many well armed warring factions already? How many Americans are you willing to see die so your justice can be served?
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Another10 year war with 5000 dead on our side and nearly a million from their side.
This is none of our business. We are being pulled into theatre by outside actors (Saudi, Qatar, ....).
ConcernedCanuk
(13,509 posts).
.
.
kisses and hugs all over Iraq.
dincha notice?
CC
markiv
(1,489 posts)but we got over that fear with Gulf war one and the end of the soviet union
and afganistan and gulf war II
but russia didnt go away, and syria is one of russia's longest mideast clients
the fear of wwiii went away
but the reality, didnt
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I have stated my opinion clearly.
I am not advocating "random bombing"; I am advocating the taking out of the leadership and the generals responsible for killing their own civilians.
I am clear on what I want, which may not be what I eventually get.
I don't think Iraq is a reasonable example, and I don't want Afghanistan to be the role model.
No, I will not join the military, even if I was eligible (which I am not).
No, I am not going to send my six year olds there, either.
Yes, I believe that my very expensive and well trained troops can go in, take care of business, then get the heck out after helping with some basic supply runs. (I am not a war expert, but this is something I feel is within the scope of their calling. I am not interested in them becoming occupiers, but as a police force against murder - yes, I am good with that.)
My information and knowledge is limited, and I am not an "expert"; I find my friends to be reliable sources of information, and I believe "stop killing us!" is a reasonable request from any people to their government.
If you have anything else to add (I think the people telling me "you are an idiot/you don't know what you are talking about/you must have liked us invading Iraq/why don't you join yourself/don't you know we can only make it worse/you are obviously a horrible human being" has all been covered), and it looks like it might be worth responding, I will come back later.
Best to all. I don't think anyone's mind has been changed, but my opinion, for what it is worth, is out there.
I want the people of Syria to stop being killed by their own government; I want Assad and his generals prosecuted.
I still support intervention.
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)I believe your ideas on this matter make you the definition of the banality of evil.
Cheers!
cali
(114,904 posts)I wish you'd rephrase this so it doesn't get deleted.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Not sure what it means, but it sounds pretty nasty.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: This is a glaring example of the type of post that makes DU suck. This poster is a frequent contributor to the suckage.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: meh
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)Hannah Arendt. Totally a propos, although I'm sure it sailed right over the OP's head.
I think you might have meant 'personification' or 'exemplification' and not 'definition' but that's mere niggling on my part.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Your misunderstanding about our involvement with it makes your entire OP seem like fantasy stuff.
'I'm for just hurting the bad guys, taking them to a court we do not recognize and handing out candy!!!!'
cali
(114,904 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)When she's not.
cali
(114,904 posts)bobduca
(1,763 posts)feigned ignorance.
cali
(114,904 posts)bobduca
(1,763 posts)I think you are correct, cali. The feigning ignoramuses use more emoticons.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)to acknowledge and address their World Court misconceptions. Introduce a fact and they flee in fear. If they made a gas mask to protect from information, they'd sell millions on the center right.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)And despite what they've been forced to do, they aren't the war profiteers' troops either. They belong in friendly US bases, or home and safe.
Because I would never fight in this war and do not see how it's justified, I will never support sending Americans to kill people who have done nothing to us. I won't support helping line the pockets or fullfill the wishes of Bill Kristol, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and the MIC.
I believe in just war to defend our country. This is murder for profit, pure and simple.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)You are not at risk of bleeding anything.
My son and my brother risk not only blood, but also death.
If you or your husband or children were at risk from another was, I wonder if you would be so flippant about it.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Because that is what will happen. These strikes are not going to just hit the military, nice and clean, they will also kill women and children, destroy businesses and homes. And it never just ends with a strike. We will end up in another clusterfuck like Afghanistan.
You might support it, but it scares the shit out of me. Both my brother and my son have skin in the game and it was just getting to the point where I wasn't as nervous about them deployed.
My daughter was born on Aug 24 1990. 6 weeks later we accompanied my brother to the airport as he headed for Iraq. It was one of the few times I saw my mother cry. That was the first Iraq war.
Then there was Somalia.
Then Afghanistan.
Then Iraq.
She just turned 23 and has never really known a time that our country was not at war. It's normal to her. Our being at War is her normal.
And that is fucked up!
We need to stop policing the world and start fixing things here at home.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Your OP and all through the thread includes your notion of 'taking them to the Hauge'. This suggests that you are unaware that we, the United States, are not signatory to the World Court, we can not take anyone there as we do not recognize it as a legitimate body. In addition, along with Israel and Sudan, we have indicated that we have no intention of ever joining it.
You make many claims of being very well informed. But......
mike_c
(36,281 posts)eom
Autumn
(45,120 posts)I do not support intervention in Syria. IMO a strike by the US military would also be State sanctioned murder of civilians, only by our weapons.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Do you have a specific faction in mind?
Seriously, which rebel faction which is now killing civilians in Syria do you want to replace Assad?
In whose hands do you want the conventional and chemical weapons? Which murdering assholes is it to be? Our ally in Syria, al Qaeda the heart eaters? Really?
cali
(114,904 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)David__77
(23,480 posts)I can just see the freedom flourishing after this kooky "regime change." Of course the population of Lebanon would triple and every Alawi house of worship and church would be closed. Wow wow wow... such insanity in this original post. Beats ANYTHING else I've seen about Iraq.
markiv
(1,489 posts)over there
cali
(114,904 posts)you support this ridiculous "going in and taking out Assad" crap which isn't on the table, but because you seem proud of yourself for your appalling lack of knowledge and you use trite nonsense to support this bloody fantasy of yours.
I've found other OPs of yours morally questionable, but this one has them all beat.
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)Cheers!
leftstreet
(36,111 posts)steve2470
(37,457 posts)Just amazes me.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 28, 2013, 05:34 PM - Edit history (1)
Lacking a draft the majority of Americans can now advocate military interventions without fear that anyone they love will be on the front lines. IMHO that was a major factor in the early support of the war in Iraq.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)I salute your deep insight!
steve2470
(37,457 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)heavy lifting themselves.
To ease your conscience by saying you pay taxes therefore you have the right to ask for military intervention leaves me shaking my head.
No wonder wars are so easy to start - when you have others fight the battles, there is not much of a personal sacrifice - let others take the brunt of it.
LostOne4Ever
(9,290 posts)I get what you are saying and can respect that.
I ask that you respect my belief that as bad as Assad is, getting rid of him will only allow another blood thirsty asshole in (one who will probably want to install a theocracy) or result in an endless bloody civil war causing only more death and hurt and international terrorism. No matter what we do tons of blood will spill and the only thing getting involved will do is stain our hands with blood as well.
Further, I believe both sides will use us as a scapegoat for anything and everything that goes wrong.
I believe we need to let the people of Syria decide Syria's fate.
And most of all, I believe we should seek every single peaceful method to bring an end to this conflict before even thinking of using military force. We have not come close to doing that.
I respect your opinion, please respect mine in VEHEMENTLY disagreeing with you.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)and then just "get out"?
I'm not being facetious. When has that ever happened, especially in a chaotic place like Syria where multiple factions are vying for power?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Saddam was a bastard, had to go, the people would welcome us as liberators, and the Middle East would burst out in Democracy and Sunshine!
It certainly exploded all right...
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)The shock and awe has turned into AWE FUCK. The Iraqi's forgot to toss flowers.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I respect your opinion, but I don't see a way this makes our country or the region more secure.
rurallib
(62,444 posts)If you believe it go sign up with the rebels.
Good luck.
I don't want my taxes and children going into poorly planned and executed wars for nothing.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)David__77
(23,480 posts)Wow.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)They have throughly infiltrated the rebels and are waiting for weapons shipments.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Y'know, just like after Saddam left?
AsahinaKimi
(20,776 posts)Sometimes I miss the unrec button.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 28, 2013, 03:22 PM - Edit history (1)
you're the sort that's only antiwar if The Wrong Guy is for it: if someone with a sufficiently low albedo and smooth speechmaking ability and the right dog and party and kids shills for it, it magically becomes humanitarian and you can salve your ulcerous, rancid, septic conscience
(and that goes DOUBLE for all you "I'm so Red that I support the draft": the draft took THIRTY THOUSAND DEAD and--what, eight years--to do anything about 'Nam)
steve2470
(37,457 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Sudan, Sud Sudan. And do you also advocate intervention by the US in these conflicts? If not, why not? Innocents are dying and horrible atrocities are occurring in these countries. What makes Syria more deserving of US intervention then these currently ongoing conflicts?
steve2470
(37,457 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)nt
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)(and nothing wrong with that - it is a discussion board) the actual DISCUSSION was moved to this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023553266
This thread is being left open for those who want to disagree with the stance and make snarky comments about what a stupid/ignorant/uniformed/idiot/murderous/Bush-loving-Republican/non-military fool I am.
They seem to be having fun. And everyone needs to have a good foaming "HOW CAN YOU BE SUCH AN IDIOT - ISN'T STUPIDITY THIS OBVIOUS AUTOMATICALLY INSTANTLY FATAL?" rant once in a while (its good for the blood pressure, and as Democrats, if there isn't a good Republican target, we love to turn on our own!), so I am letting it continue to play out.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)And I can understand you abandoning a thread that accomplishes only that.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)And to be fair, I am in favor of someone (even us) being Planetary Police Officers with regime change implemented when state sponsored massacres start happening.
It is not a popular view, and I understand the arguments against it.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)So I guess we will leave it at that.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)so let those bombs fly!
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)What is to happen once we go in and "stabilize" Syria with out boots on the ground? Replay of Iraq?
Once we leave, the slaughter of the Christian and Alawite minorities?
Will their deaths be less terrible than those that have already happened?
How shall we pay for this military adventure?
Shall we cut Food Stamps and Head Start?
God forbid we raise taxes on the wealthy (who will be the only people who REALLY benefit from our military adventures)!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Having others dying for your blood lust is what chickenhawks do.
Secondly, what if the WMD's were deployed by a rebel faction? It is not 100% clear who did it.
Thirdly, go read the pnac site
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You're about to enlist, right?
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)If war in the real world actually worked like the fantasy version you are hoping for, I'd be all for intervention too.
JustAnotherGen
(31,869 posts)I want NATO to intervene. . I want a global full court press.
This is genocide. This is the Kurds all over again.
Note - I consider myself a pacifist. My father was one of the first Green Berets - and as strong mentally as he was - I remember him screaming in the closet when I was a little girl. War did something to that man. And it does something to men and now . . . Women.
He hated war. Brought us down to DC ten years ago to protest Iraq. But I knew my dad. If we have a chance as a global community to help people - we must.
I'm just not willing to throw ONLY American men and women under the bus. If the UN won't act - I want it disbanded tomorrow. I don't want some woman at the next DU in 60 years to say: We had another S. S. St. Louis.
These people aren't showing up and looking for refuge - they aren't even asking for help.
But if we can pinpoint where that gas is . . .
REP
(21,691 posts)Aren't yours too young to serve? Maybe that makes it easier not think about what you're asking of other people's children.
I don't have children. Never wanted any. Still don't want to send them off to die in pointless wars.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,501 posts)more unrealistic.
REP
(21,691 posts)Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,501 posts)Would both Duke and Snake Eyes have to go in order for this to work?
REP
(21,691 posts)Could you at least pretend to take this seriously? Of course they'd both have to go.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,501 posts)OK you win! Well played sir.
.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)with no casualties! Every pilot ejects before his plane blows up, every soldier escapes from his burning tank, everybody leaves the battle with nothing more than some scuffs.
actslikeacarrot
(464 posts)...I truly do. Hell, I was a "true believer" in the early 2000's. So much so, I actually signed up.
But multiple deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan has taught me that no matter how much good we do at the squad, platoon and even company level, the entire mission country wide is fucked, and unwinnable.
I have seen too many civilians killed in a crossfire, and have seen too many family members and widows crying at memorial services for fallen Marines to even THINK that our involvement in Syria will do anybody good, except those that sell bombs and guns to the US GOVERNMENT. I urge you to reconsider.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)This is one of the more disgusting OP's I've ever seen on DU. Absolutely hideous.
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)fujiyama
(15,185 posts)or start a collection.
I'm tired of my taxes going toward bombing people. I really am starting to wonder what else I get for the hard earned money I am forced to contribute in taxes. Universal health care? Nope. World class infrastructure? Ha, we have no high speed rail and our roads are garbage. Safe cities? I live near Detroit.
So have at it. Head over there and join the militias (some of whom are Jihadists and want to impose Sharia law). Maybe it will be exciting. Maybe it will give you a greater sense of purpose in helping the Syrian people. And I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
The world is a very nasty place and humans seem to be less civilized than chimps and other evolutionary relatives. The situation in Syria is appalling and I wish something could be done but after viewing many interventions, and trying to figure out who is who in a nation artificially carved out by colonial powers in the first place, I'm lost.
As for a SEAL raid or something of the sort - you may be thinking too much in Hollywood terms. If the son of a bitch dictator couldn't be killed by now when much of his country despises him, one "crack" team isn't going to do it. Besides, unless you can guarantee that the outcome will be better than the already awful current situation, then all the effort we put into this will be in vain.
I'm more concerned about the fact that the largest city by me is fucking bankrupt. Call me selfish but I can't save the world, but we can and should help those immediately around us first before getting involved in a mess for which we don't have any credible solutions.
FloridaJudy
(9,465 posts)They weren't allowed to finish in Iraq, and we all know how well that worked out. If indeed Assad is gassing civilians as most experts suspect, then that's just about the most despicable war crime going. No nation that pretends to be civilized is going to publicly support him after that. Best case scenario, his allies convince him it's in his best interest to flee to exile. Won't get him in shackles, but he'll be gone.
The problem is Assad may be an evil SOB, but everybody else with a dog in this fight is an evil SOB as well. And poison gas is a very old technology. I could even cook up a nice toxic cloud in my kitchen using ingredients available in any supermarket, and what I learned in Chem 101. That's if I had no conscience and little regard for my personal safety - and doesn't that just about describe your average terrorist?
So give the inspectors the chance to say "Yup, that's poison gas XY, all right. And it matches the chemical signature of the crap that Assad's got a butt-ton of stored in his basement".
Let's wait and see what shakes out after that.
dflprincess
(28,082 posts)we really don't have the moral authority to tell anyone else how to behave.
dkf
(37,305 posts)And sing kumbayah.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Once you sign up and get deployed, let us know and maybe we can organize some care packages for you and your unit.
demosocialist
(184 posts)I don't know if we should proceed with a limited strike or not but it scares me because:
There is a multi-belligerent civil war going on in Syria and I have no clue who would succeed in gaining power.
I also have no clue how a "limited strike" or a regime change would be perceived by Iran or Russia, but my guesses seem pretty grim.
retaliation would most certainly be against innocent people of other nations, namely Israel
I liked Obama because he was against the Iraq Invasion, I really don't understand the thinking in going into Syria, if you are against Iraq. Kurdish and Iranian kids were dying by Iraqs/US chemical weapons, why is Syria more important?
Obama received a lot of votes back in 2008 because of his anti-war stance, I think I am worried most of all about what seems to be a flip flop of that stance.
The last point tells me that this has more to it than the humanitarian purposes.
I see no persuasion in your argument...
calimary
(81,440 posts)Oh GREAT. EXACTLY what we need. Just freakin' great.
I'm torn - just a little bit. YES it's awful. YES the visuals are awful. But also YES the intel is inconclusive. This is NOT a slam-dunk. Didn't we learn ANYTHING from what happened a decade ago??????????????????? Does NO ONE think there won't be unintended consequences here? Does ANYONE think this will be quick and surgical, and that'll be that? That it won't linger and grow and metastasize out of control as soon as we pull the first trigger? And now soon will boots be on the ground? Hell, we can't cope with the wounded and injured veterans we've already created! Are we sure we can deal with more?
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)short of putting boots on the ground and attempting regime change.
I hate the bastard, too, but this is not a black and white situation where taking him out makes everything all better. Iraq and Egypt should have taught us that already, but some just never seem to learn that lesson.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)mentalsolstice
(4,461 posts)Unlikly to be your last! Sure, your children are too young for military service, but it's never too early to start indoctinating them for it! I'm sure Syria, al Queda, and other hotsspots will still be waiting in 12 years when they'll be old enough to serve, particularly if your wishes are granted.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)IN SYRYA no less, this was all but surprising to me.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)They are Al Aqaeda and Hezbollah, among others.
Arming these people or intervening on their behalf will lead to no good.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)and I bleed as red as you do. You know why? The more you stir in a pile of shit, the worse it stinks. And it doesn't leave you smelling like a virtuous entity, no matter what flag is on your chest. You end up with more stinking shit, dead bodies, and dead children.