President Obama, Secretaries of State and Defense John Kerry and Chuck Hagel

[David Zephyr]

President Obama, Secretaries of State and Defense John Kerry & Chuck Hagel. There's sure a lot of second guessing about these three men. Some of the posts here lately attempt to falsely reduce them to bloodthirsty, trigger-happy men. It's beyond preposterous. It's pathetic.

Anyone who actually thinks these men are warmongers with itchy fingers needs to have your head examined. Seriously.

I did not just not support the War in Iraq, but I also, unlike the majority at the DU way back when, also opposed the entire War in Afghanistan from the beginning. It's all in the archives.

But just because I am old and my eyes are bad and I don't post like I used to because I can't doesn't mean that I don't come to this site and I must tell you that some of the swarm pseudo-liberalism that is I read here tearing down these three men who have stood in the gap to keep us out of or to temper wars (John Kerry said in the very beginning that the Afghanistan War should have been "a police action" and guess what? In the end it was a clandestine "police action" that took out the monster that killed our citizens on September 11, 2001. It did not require the occupation of another nation) is really gotten to the point of the absurd.

Do you actually think President Franklin Roosevelt did not understand that his nation was war weary after the stupidity of World War I? Do you actually think that he did not grasp the hypocrisy of the the Republicans at that time who were doing everything they could in Congress to keep us at peace with Germany? Do you think that he was itching to go to war? Hardly. But while we dithered let me remind you that SIX MILLION Jews were being murdered systematically including one million Jewish children and two hundred and fifty thousand homosexuals.

Gassing and murdering children is beyond shitty, it's just about as evil as it can get and the United States of America -- even after our last two extremely stupid wars -- should be a united voice against murdering children with chemical weapons. Real WMD. Not trumped up WMD. Real WMD that murdered children.

President Clinton stopped one genocide in the Balkans using American might. He is to be commended for that. Unfortunately, as he himself regrets, he let another one take place in Africa.

To me standing up to bullies is a big part of being liberal.

Let's not dive any further into the deep waters of self-congratulatory delusion: Of course we don't have to go to war to weaken this shithead in Syria. Well, guess what? President Obama and John Kerry and Chuck Hagel understand that better than any of us here.

Please pardon me if I've interrupted anyone's parade of self-indulgence and self-righteous smugness. I will only point out to you that there is a time to do the right thing and to stand up to brutal monstrous oppressors, especially those who are murdering children who have no one to protect them or to turn to.

Most everyone knows that Bob Dylan's great song "Blowin' in the Wind" opens with the line

Yes, how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned ?

But the song also points out the following:

Yes, how many times can a man turn his head
Pretending he just doesn't see ?

If you are comfortable turning your head, then so be it. I'm not. And I am a liberal Democrat.

[last1standing]

1. Who exactly has offered to to set these people free?

Certainly not the rebels who mostly want to enslave the people to a different master.

Certainly not Obama, Kerry or Hagel who talk of punishing Assad, not of freeing the people.

So who is going to allow them to be free?

[Ocelot]

17. Ssshh... you're not supposed to think, they don't want you to

But we will most certainly need "boots on the ground"... in order to "free" Syria's oil from the ground.

[SaveAmerica]

23. That response is getting so old, and you're thinking of a different Sec of Defense.

[Ocelot]

35. Our current President & Secretary of State remind me a moldy rerun of

"I love Rummy".. I'm hoping Obama & Kerry bring back Curveball, he was my favorite character!

[dkf]

2. Actually I think they are trapped by Obama's red line so now their priority is to save face.

The tragedy is they will kill people to do so.

[kentuck]

3. DZ! Good to hear from you!

I was just thinking of you yesterday. I guess you heard that NNNOLHI (Don) passed away?

I have tried to stay away from badmouthing the people you mentioned but I did post this today: what do you think?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023589226

[David Zephyr]

39. My old buddy.

Your news about our beloved Don just broke me down. I'm getting too old an emotional and I will really miss him. He was so decent and fair-minded and always informed. Please take care of yourself.

[FSogol]

4. K&R. n/t

[polichick]

5. It's not about turning our heads; it's about working with the rest of the world...

instead of acting like judge, jury, cowboy and God all rolled into one.

[blkmusclmachine]

6. Pastry for you.

[freshwest]

7. K & R for the clearest reasoning yet. Please post more often if you can.

[David Zephyr]

40. Thank you.

My eyes aren't so good anymore and typing is difficult, but I do like to read the posts and keep up. The DU is a good community.

[TwilightGardener]

8. The one thing I'm certain of them is that they wouldn't trump up intelligence.

I also don't think Obama and Hagel, specifically, are eager for military intervention. Kerry, from what I've read, was more adamant about getting involved over the past year, but he seems to deeply believe it's the best course of action, and his opinion should be given some thoughtful AND RESPECTFUL consideration instead of knee-jerk attacks. Why? Because he's earned at least that much with his years of foreign policy experience and his own war experience.

[David Zephyr]

55. Agree.

I believe that your comments were underscored today by Senator Kerry is the Congressional hearing. I appreciate your comments and your courage to post them here.

[dionysus]

20. cheap fucking insult, you should be ashamed.

come down from your cross, the wood could be used elsewhere more constructively.

[KoKo]

25. I'm not ashamed...but, agree it was probably too personal a reply

to someone I felt very close to in my early years on DU. Someone I respected very much. But, the post was too personal for the thread.

So, I deleted it.

Peace!

[jessie04]

10. + 1,000,000

Wish I wrote that.

[kentuck]

11. People are wearisome of war...

and they have been lied to so many times...and then they find the NSA is doing much more spying than anyone imagined.

We need to get back to our Constitution and let the people's representatives make the decision whether or not to go to war. I hope that is what Obama does if the Congress votes down the bombing mission on Syria.

[TheProgressive]

12. Progressives/Liberals/Democrats analyze *all* information...

You are correct... They are not warmongers. This is all about Money.

Killing is just the cost of doing business. Some actually like the fact
that they get to *kill*...

[SaveAmerica]

26. I feel that you are wrong, I haven't seen any evidence that this

is about money.

I have seen McCain and that SC dingleberry (what's his name? the Senator {R, Mouthpiece} from that great state?) work to do their own thing to try to get weapons to rebels in Syria. Are they the money hungry you're talking about? I'm so tired of watching this President not only have to undo garbage from the past but have to weave and bob around garbage blows being thrown from friend and foe alike.

[wisteria]

13. Powerful statement.

Thank you!

[Cha]

14. Mahalo David, It's close to an impossible

situation but I'm grateful that PBO, Kerry, and yes Hagel are in charge. We're going to have this debate and that includes Senators like Sanders, Warren, and Markey, who are Liberal Dems, too.

It's too bad about those who have to start hurling accusations about these leaders who are against doing nothing.. like their hair's on fire and ignorant insults are the only thing that can put it out.



http://theobamadiary.com/

[David Zephyr]

41. Moving graphic.

Gassing children is indeed a "red line" with me, too.

[Sand Wind]

15. Bravo ! Bravo ! +10e100

[AnotherMcIntosh]

16. If they don't want war, all they have to do is not call for war.

[leftstreet]

18. Yet these 'great leaders' turn their heads to our suffering

No jobs
Stagnant and sub-living wages
No healthcare
Seniors barely getting by on SS
Millions on Food Assistance
No housing
Bankruptcies
Families caring for their elderly
Homelessness
Crumbling national infrastructure

I don't give two fucks what these politicians have to say about Syria

[dionysus]

19. HEY! where the hell you been?

[David Zephyr]

42. Hey, dionysus.

I drift in and out. I'm getting old, but it sure is good to see your wave. Thank you.

[abelenkpe]

21. Don't have the money

The sequester reminds people everyday our country doesnt have any money.

[Hutzpa]

22. David

Assad as we know has become a murdering dictator, does this justify us destroying the whole country just to get him out?

I know this place can be volatile sometimes especially at times when the stakes are higher, however I do believe most DU
members respect and see these guys as Noble Men, most people also know (me included) that sometimes they are
powerless to act based on multiple reasons, but the majority of the public see them as figure heads which makes them an
easier target. Our job should you asked is to keep them honest.

I think our governments' task is to target those who sold Syria these chemical weapons instead of drumming up more
wars.

We are still in Afghanistan were Americans dying, why send them out to another war?

































There are those who believe in war to maintain power over the powerless, there are also those who are trying to silent
people from speaking the truth as in a wave of DOS to my machine in an effort to prevent me from posting on DU. lol

[SaveAmerica]

24. Thank you, I said as much the other day - just not as eloquently

I was a lone voice so seeing your post is refreshing. Where are the people who had the ability to see more than black and white at DU? It seems to be a thing of the past.

I feel we are witnessing the right way to take care of a dictating bully. It's crazy the similarities to events in the past decade, but also crazy as to how it is being handled so differently. I, for one, see the differences and appreciate them.

Thanks for your thoughts - you are definitely not alone. (And for the record I think it's absurd to imagine for a minute that these 2 Vietnam Veterans who have seen what they have would be cheerleaders for any unnecessary attacks or plans of attack, and I hate that the boy who not only cried wolf but ran his countrymen and women in to the wolf's lair has now made it that much harder for anyone who is trying to do the right thing for real concerns.)

[David Zephyr]

43. Well, now you know you are not a lone voice.

Your point about George W. Bush is spot on.

[delrem]

27. The PNAC program of the MIC sucks, whoever their puppets are. Deal with it.

[madrchsod]

28. john kerry kick`d the crap out of rand paul

this is a true work of art on kerry`s part...http://www.politicususa.com/2013/09/03/john-kerry-exposes-rand-paul-fraud-obliterating-syria-hearing.html

[davidpdx]

30. Cruz was just on CNN a bit ago

Saying that Obama was wrong to not do anything earlier in the year. It's clear what the priority of these two really is.

[madrchsod]

32. well... let`s see how willing the republicans are to go to war.

[davidpdx]

44. The drama is going to be interesting

I predict a split vote btw. I think the House will say yes, but the Senate will vote no.

[davidpdx]

29. I agree with you

I understand people are worrisome of another war. I don't want another war either.
I understand people feel the country was duped by Bush going into Iraq. I opposed the war like most here and don't want to see that again.


DUers in general seem to distrust Obama for the most part. I'm not one of those. I still believe he will do the right thing.

The Obama=Bush meme is getting old.

Disagree with his policies, what he says, and does. But insults are not necessary. Not of President Obama or Secretary of State John Kerry.

[avaistheone1]

31. Given these leaders are so great, why have they turned their heads to 40,000 Americans who die

each and every year due to lack of medical access because they have no health insurance? Most of these dead Americans are children. Are the Syrians deaths more tragic than that of our own people?

I will never believe that we are planning to strike Syria for humanitarian reasons when ALL three of those men are well aware of these 40,000 mortalities, but they are unwilling to make an effort to spend both the political capital and financial capital to resolve this issue at home.

[DeSwiss]

33. Hogwash!

Where is the EVIDENCE?! Those piece of crap pipe missiles were homemade slapdash bullshit. Even Colin Powell had better evidence and we KNOW his was faked. No one's saying Assad isn't a blood-thirsty dictator -- just like his father before him.

But your post implies that we should trust President Obama, Secretaries of State and Defense John Kerry and Chuck Hagel because... well because. They're good dudes and all that. I say bullshit on that. Trust is earned. And when someone tells me that we must kill to stop killing I don't think they've earned it. They've been playing us with this same game since Korea. Wake up!

- This whole damned Syria thing a setup and I'm not buying it I don't care who the salesmen are......

Check around timemark 3:45 and 7:00

BTW: That moralistic tone you take about accepting the deaths of gassed children is the worst BULLSHIT. Obama/Kerry/Hagel = MORAL? I got two words for you: [font size=9]Predator Drones[/font]

[Thinkingabout]

52. Did you see any news reports with deceased children and adults laying dead? They was evidence, not

enough proof, how much more evidence do you need?

[Celefin]

54. No one in their right mind is disputing the use of chemical weapons

What is lacking is evidence on who used them/ordered the attack.

That is the evidence we do still need. Unless you don't care if you attack the right faction of the 7 or 8 fighting in Syria.

DeSwiss merely pointed out that these home-made looking missiles certainly aren't military stuff. It could still have been the military. But it might not. That doesn't make Assad any less murderous... but none of the other factions seems to value the lives of children any higher than he does. These strikes will escalate the war = more deceased children and adults laying dead.
This is a total no-win situation and doing something merely because something needs to be done is a recipe for disaster.

[Thinkingabout]

56. Read post #33, this is the post I was replying to, wanted to know where was the evidence.

[David Zephyr]

57. "Where is the evidence?" You actually ask that?

Wow. The evidence of the gassing children is overwhelming and only continues to grow.

By the way, where is the "evidence" to your claim that "This whole damned Syria thing a setup"?

Please illuminate me on what you mean by "setup"?

[DeSwiss]

58. links please. n/t

[Summer Hathaway]

34. What a wonderful read!!!

It is one thing to criticize, and to firmly believe that those one disagrees with (Obama, Hagel, Kerry, in this instance) are wrong in their decision-making, and to express that view on a political message board.

It is quite another thing, however, to always feel compelled to attach some evil, nefarious motives to those you think to be wrong-headed in their statements and/or actions. For some, it is not enough to say that these three men are thinking in what they perceive to be the wrong direction; it is also necessary to paint them as blood-thirsty warmongers who are owned by the 1%, pawns of the MIC, part of the PNAC Cabal - and so it goes.

What too many people here miss is the fact that the minute they indulge in the latter, they have already lost the argument.

- Came back to add: This is one of the finest pieces of writing I have seen here in a very long time. A very heartfelt K&R.

[David Zephyr]

45. Thank you.

Lincoln didn't walk away from undoing what had to be undone. Standing up to bullies is part of liberalism. Thank you for your words. Too kind.

[Summer Hathaway]

46. My words were not "too kind"

they were, in fact, incredibly inadequate.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. The boss and his war PR team. Do they have their comfortable combat boots on?

[Maven]

37. Please stow your loyalty shaming, especially when you invoke the name of Chuck Hagel as sacrosanct

I mean you are kidding right? FDR and the Holocaust?

Honestly, this claptrap is beneath you. There's still time to delete this OP.

[Hobo]

47. How nice of you to try and censor an opposite point of view

wonder what that makes you?

Hobo

[Maven]

48. It is the OP who seeks to censor

By reducing anti war suspicion to a "parade of self righteous smugness" and implying that posters who dare question the unassailably pure motives of Barack Obama, John Kerry and Chuck Hagel (!) would have turned a blind eye to the Holocaust. That is a call to cast shame on those who refuse to bite their tongue. No one asked him to post this. People have a right to respond.

Your reply reminds of me of RWers who cry censorship when their own attempts to silence critics with hate are called out. I called for the OP to self-delete as I have seen his work in this past and this snide sideswipe is not worthy of it. Perhaps I was wrong.

[Sand Wind]

38. But war is bad !

[MisterP]

49. thanks for the new sigline

replacing "Journalism is not terrorism."

[William769]

50. Best fucking OP in GD in quite awhile.

[cynatnite]

51. You've said exactly what I've been thinking and feeling. Thank you. n/t

[joeybee12]

53. Unrec...

Yup, bombing is always the answer...killing more people with our bombs than was killed by the alleged use by Assad of chemical weapons certainly is the right thing to do...you have bought the knee-jerk lie that bombing is always the asnwer, that standing up to bullies means killing the people that bully is hurting...